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July 5, 2022 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
01:40:55
20220705_piers-morgan-uncensored-sunak-and-javid-resign
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Government Collapsing Before Our Eyes 00:08:28
Good evening.
I'm Piers Morgan on Censored.
A stunning breaking news night tonight.
A special two-hour edition of our show as the British government appears to be collapsing before our very eyes.
Yes, the dam is bursting on Boris Johnson.
Could even, some think, resign as early as tonight.
Two of the Prime Minister's most senior cabinet ministers have quit in a coordinated assault on Johnson's leadership, leaving his beleaguered premiership dangling by the very smallest of threads.
First Health Secretary Saji Javin walked out saying the public and now his own colleagues no longer have confidence in Johnson's leadership.
And he's saying that in a pandemic.
Minutes later, Rishi Sunak, talking in the middle of a financial crisis as the Chancellor of the Exchequer, also resigned.
He said the public rightly expects government to be conducted properly, competently and seriously.
And the quotes, we cannot continue like this.
Both men now tipped as potential future leaders.
Andrew Merrison has also quit as trade envoy to Morocco.
Bim Athalami has resigned tonight as Tory vice chairman.
PBSs are now beginning to fall like dominoes.
Two, in fact, have quit in the last two minutes.
Last month, Boris Johnson barely survived a vote of confidence as 148 of his own MPs voted to oust him over Partygate, the scandal of illegal lockdown busting parties in Downing Street, for which the Prime Minister himself was fined by police.
This week he's been engulfed by scandal again after being caught again, lying again about whether he knew his deputy chief whip, Chris Pincher, was accused of sexual misconduct when he gave him a job.
He did know and he lied.
But after almost three years now of scandal and lies, is tonight the night that Boris Johnson's House of Cards finally collapses?
Well I'm joined now by talk TV political editor Kate McCann.
Kate, last night we had a little bet, didn't we?
A pound bet that Boris Johnson wouldn't survive.
So I'll take a check.
I knew you were going to start with this.
Well let me play the clip just to remind you.
I'll bet you let's do the old what was that?
What was that film with Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy?
Trading places.
It was a one pound bet wasn't it?
So why don't we have a one dollar for them?
Let's do a one dollar bet.
I say Boris gone by Christmas.
You want to take that bet?
Yeah I say he stays.
Okay we're on one dollar and I will will come and get it.
Right I'll see you later Kate.
So are you now revising your optimistic position on Boris Johnson?
You are such a wind-up merchant Piers Morgan.
So look I think things look really bad for Boris Johnson tonight.
You've just run through that list.
Very, very senior cabinet ministers.
Chancellor gone, health secretary gone, as you said when COVID cases are rising.
Really, really not good.
But the suggestion tonight is that Boris Johnson is going to try and shore up support around him by finding a new Chancellor.
Now whether or not he's able to do that, whether or not he's able to make that work for him over the coming weeks, months, even maybe days, that's a huge open-ended question.
But if that's what he intends to do, that tells me that he thinks he's got a chance.
Now, part of the reason for that, Piers, we discussed it last night.
The mechanism to get rid of a Prime Minister isn't there yet.
Could well be next week.
But some of those who are closest to the Prime Minister now are turning on him.
And that's why, although they are only PPS's, very junior rung of the ministerial ladder, the resignation of Jonathan Gullis and Sakib Bhatti, they are really fascinating because those two are some of the most vocal supporters in the House of Commons.
In fact, Jonathan Gullis has been mocked for the number of times that he stands up and asks supportive questions of the PM during Prime Minister's question time when he is walking out the door and saying, I can't stand it any longer.
And I have to say, I've heard that from a number of very senior Boris backbench supporters today.
I think he's got a really serious problem.
I don't think he can turn it around.
And look, Piers, I'm willing to hold my hands up and say, you may, may have been right.
I think he's got two hopes of surviving even to the weekend now, no hope and bob hope.
Because the truth is, if you're in the middle of a pandemic and a financial crisis and your health secretary and your chancellor resign, that is about the biggest two fingers to a serving prime minister that I could even contemplate.
And when you add all the other people now rushing to resign, the list of his own MPs who are now expressing no confidence in Boris Johnson, I just think by the time we even come off air tonight, his position becomes completely untenable.
Yeah, I don't think you'll find many who disagree with you.
And I think what's actually really interesting tonight is often when these things happen, what you can find is a steady stream of supportive, either government ministers or senior Tory voices who will come on the airwaves and they will say Boris Johnson is totally fine.
Now, we've had a number of senior cabinet ministers who've come out and said they're staying to raise coffee.
Nadine Dorries, Ben Wallace, he's a really important one because he could be a future leader.
But trying to drum up that support here tonight, it's really difficult.
Jacob Reese Marga has been on a couple of other broadcasters.
He apparently now has a dinner, so he can't come and speak to us.
Now, that's unusual.
You would cancel that dinner if things were really difficult and you were hoping to shore up your boss.
So I think that tells you that you're probably right.
This doesn't look good for the Prime Minister and that support will only go so far.
But as I say, the mechanism for getting rid of Boris Johnson, if he wants to stay, and that's crucial here, if he wants to stay and he thinks he can appoint a new Chancellor and he thinks that he can cling on because there are no other leadership contenders, remember both Ben Wallace and Liz Truss are staying in the cabinet tonight.
They are not leaving his side.
Well then, if he wants to stay, he could potentially try to do that.
I'm not saying that it'll last for a long time, but if that's his intention, he may well have a run at it.
I mean, I would think two more shattering blows for him are that Dominic Raab and Nadine Doris have offered him their full confidence and are staying in their positions.
That may be the tipping point for the poor guy.
Kay McCann, stand at your desk.
Well, it's not a desk, is it?
You're in the middle of a leafy little field down by Parliament.
Stand there, because I reckon all night long, more dominoes are coming and this could be an electrifying night in British politics.
Thank you for that analysis now.
Let's go to Conservative MP for Hitchin and Harpenden, Bim Afalami, joins me now.
Bim, you just resigned as Conservative Party Vice Chairman this evening.
Why?
Because I think that the Prime Minister can no longer continue.
He's lost the trust of the party and indeed the country.
And it's very sad because I think that the achievements of the government have actually been considerable in many areas.
But today and the revelations about Chris Pincher was really the last straw for me.
I mean, the bottom line is Boris Johnson just blatantly lied again, didn't he?
Because he knew exactly what Pincher was like, because it had been brought to his attention about a previous offence.
And it was found that he had committed this offence, but that he wouldn't do it again.
So Boris Johnson knew all along that everything he was telling us in the last few days was complete nonsense.
Well, I think you made the point very well.
Thank you.
What happens to the party now?
I mean, what's going to happen tonight?
Is Boris Johnson going to try and hang on, do you think?
Or do you think that the way things are now blowing, that the storm, the tempest is so strong, he could even go as early as this evening?
I've no idea what the Prime Minister will do, but what I think is important is for every single Conservative MP to think about the health of the party and the country.
Because this is clearly not working as a premiership, as a government.
And we can either make this incredibly painful and very, very vicious, or the people who are close to the Prime Minister should go to him and say, look, this is the time to stand down with dignity in an ordered, sensible fashion.
Do you have any preferred candidate that you will be lending your support to?
No, I don't.
I mean, I've just, you know, I didn't tell anybody before I made this announcement this evening.
And what really was, in addition to the Chris Pincher stuff, was I was at a funeral this afternoon of a very long-standing councillor in my constituency who was just the epitome of integrity to his community, to his family and his friends.
And it just really made me think that people have a right to better.
And they need that from members of parliament, ministers and the prime minister as well.
To those who say that the public don't really care about this, didn't really care about party gate, don't really care about a bloke called Pincher, other than he's got a funny name for a groper, what's your message to them?
Trust in the Prime Minister Shattered 00:02:33
Well, they don't reflect, well, the people that would say that don't reflect the people that I speak to, the vast majority of whom do care about the probity, the competence of the centre of government.
And people are, they give us a bit of leeway in politics.
They know that sometimes things are hard.
They know that sometimes collective responsibility means that you have to sometimes back policies that you may have argued against in private.
That's part of politics.
It's part of being part of a team sport.
But it shouldn't be a team sport to defend things that are indefensible.
And I just wasn't prepared to do it.
Could you even have imagined in December 2019 that we would be here, you know, not even three years into Boris Johnson's premiership with the whole House of Cards collapsing in the way that it is, given the size of his majority?
No, it's completely unthinkable.
And I think it's worth saying that one of the biggest problems for the government was COVID coming and that really blowing up so many plans that the government and the party had.
And that has had a significant toll on the Premiership in so many different ways.
And I think overall the government did a very good job over COVID, but it did make a lot of things a lot harder.
And that has contributed to the difficulties over recent months.
I mean, I would say the government did an absolutely catastrophically bad job in the first wave of the pandemic.
It then did a good job on vaccines.
But this idea that Boris Johnson got all the big calls right, I think is for the birds.
And I think that although obviously the pandemic was a huge thing for any government to deal with, the problem for Boris Johnson is all the lying.
And the party gate really played right to his most vulnerable side, which is he just didn't really care that 80-odd of his staff at Downing Street were fined by the police for illegal lockdown partying.
He didn't really care that he himself was fined because he thought the public would just stomach it.
But I think that that was a very big misjudgment by him.
I think the fact that so many, many, many people in this country were not able to go and see dying relatives in hospital or go to any kind of family events or close friend events and then to discover the Prime Minister and his staff are on the lash at Downing Street, breaking all those rules that they'd set for everybody.
I think that was an incredibly damaging thing for trust in this government and the Prime Minister.
Yes, I think it was very damaging.
Misjudging Public Sentiment on Pandemic 00:09:55
And you'd have to have been under a rock to have not thought it was damaging over the last few months.
Well, Ben, I appreciate you joining me.
It's obviously, I can tell, you know, you're sad about this, aren't you?
This is not something you've done lightly.
This is not something you're pleased to be doing.
But it's something you have felt you have to do, right?
Exactly.
And it's been very, very difficult because loyalty and supporting the party is important.
And I don't want, you know, I don't want anything to, anybody to read any more into it than I just myself couldn't continue supporting Prime Minister who asked for time at the confidence vote to regain to regain the party's trust.
And I gave him that time, but I just think that this latest incident was just too much.
Ben Avalami, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
I appreciate it.
Well, I'm joined in the studio by political commentator Adam Bolton, the big beast on the big night.
Glad to have you here.
Talk TV contributor Esther Krakow and the Conservative MP Peter Bone.
Well, Peter Bone, let me start with you, because I did ask them to bring me a Tory bone to nor on who might be still defending the Indefensible.
And here you are, quite literally a Tory bone to nor on.
You were actually singled out in the House of Commons by the speaker today, praising you for basically being the last one standing.
What on earth is it about Boris Johnson right now that you can find any sinew in your body to support him over?
Well, I've always thought it's about policy, not persons.
And I support the policy the government's doing.
And that's the difference.
A lot of people are attacking the Prime Minister, as you rightly say.
It's rather like a football match.
They're playing the player, not the ball.
I think it's about policy.
I support...
Doesn't character matter?
Well, character matters.
Of course, character matters.
Trust matter?
Isn't a prime minister telling brazen lies?
In this case, about a sexual predator?
Does that not matter?
Well, first of all, I don't accept brazen lies, what you say.
You don't think he lied?
And it's alleged.
So we've got to be careful because I have no idea what happened.
But I believe it's about policy, not individual.
And as I've said many times before, in my constituents, they're worried about the policy, not the individuals.
My constituent wouldn't have the foggiest idea who Chris Pincher was.
I mean, I don't even believe you've ever met him.
I never met Chris Pincher.
They're not worried about living in the world.
Here's what I don't know.
Well, of course they are.
And the biggest tax cut for decades is coming tomorrow, and we won't be talking about it.
But you tried to persuade me that the public didn't really care about party gate.
No, I agree.
I agree with you.
They didn't care.
They didn't worry about it.
Of course they did.
You're completely wrong about this, Peter.
Who are these constituents that you're hanging out with?
Go and spend hours and hours knocking on the doors in Wellingbridge and see what people tell you on the doorstep.
They don't bring party gate up.
They bring up small boats.
They bring up the walls.
Let me ask you, though.
As a Conservative Member of Parliament, do you not understand the corrosive damage that Boris Johnson's inability to tell the truth has done to the integrity and reputation of this Conservative government?
If the Prime Minister knowingly misled Parliament, and that's been looked at by the Prudence, then he has to resign, full stop.
If he didn't, well, that's...
You know he lied.
You know he lied.
No, well, you predicted.
You believe him when he says he just forgot that for three days he briefly...
Really?
Yeah, probably.
You forget that somebody has been...
Can you remember what happened years ago when you're under pressure?
This was three years ago.
Can you remember three years ago?
Yes, very much so.
You can't remember three years ago.
Sometimes I can't remember last week, but perhaps mice my age.
Come on.
But Chris Pincher was investigated when Theresa May was Prime Minister.
This wasn't a secret.
But wasn't it Theresa May that appointed him?
Yes, she resurrected his politician.
Boris Johnson then put him back in the whips after a previous offence.
Now it turns out that when he was working in the Foreign Office, he was actually, Boris Johnson was informed he had basically conceded he had behaved badly and Boris Johnson decided he wouldn't do it again.
Now today we're supposed to believe from Boris Johnson.
Oh, I couldn't remember, but now I do remember, yeah, I wish I hadn't done it.
Of course you wish you hadn't done it.
It's all bologna.
It's all baloney.
Well, nobody believes he forgot.
I'm Adam Bolton.
Adam Bolton.
Well, I've got one question for Peter, really.
If the public don't care about all this, why is it that Labour have been ahead in the polls and Boris Johnson's popularity ratings have been at record lows ever since party gate started?
Just a mere coincidence, is it?
Adam, tell me, we're midterm and we're one, two, three, four, five, six, five, five minutes.
Why behind Labour?
That's actually quite a bit.
Why did it switch?
You were ahead.
Why did it switch?
I think the public didn't do it.
I think the media generation has affected it.
But I still think the issue is about policy and whether we're doing the right thing.
The problem with policy, the problem with policy is that actually nobody even really knows what's going on.
Okay, I've got policy.
Yeah, but on policy, just on this, Rishi Sunak's resignation letter, he says, if something is too good to be true, then it's not true.
The public needs to know, whilst there is a path to a better future, it is not an easy one.
In preparation for our proposed joint speech on the economy next week, it has become clear to me that our approaches are fundamentally too different.
So in other words, on policy, the Chancellor's resign and says we're split.
So if you care about policy...
I do care about the policy.
Now, if the Chancellor, who's now resigned, was for putting up taxes and handing it back to individual groups.
That's socialist.
That's not what he's in for.
He says he's not going to be able to do it.
Well, we don't know that.
Basically, he says Boris Johnson wanted to say that.
I would also read this line from Sajid Javid.
The tone you said as a leader, he says to Boris Johnson, the values you represent reflect on your colleagues, your party, and ultimately the country.
Conservatives at their best are seen as hard-headed decision-makers guided by strong values.
We may not have always been popular, but we've been competent in acting in the national interest.
Sadly, in the current circumstances, the public are concluding, we are now popular nor competent.
The vote of confidence last month showed a large number of our colleagues agree.
It was a moment for humility, grip, and new direction.
I regret to say, however, it's clear to me this situation will not change under leadership, and you've lost my confidence.
That's the Health Secretary.
I mean, Andrew Morrison, another one who's resigned as an ambassador, MP has resigned tonight, says the choice is back Boris Johnson or believe in decency, honesty and integrity.
Well, we actually have Dr. Andrew Morrison with us now.
He has indeed resigned as trade envoy to Morocco and he joins me now.
Thank you very much indeed for joining me, Dr. Morrison.
Why have you resigned?
My pleasure.
Well, I couldn't, in all conscience, continue serving Boris Johnson and talk to programs like this in which I call for him to go.
That's why I've resigned.
But I think probably the letter that you just referred to from Lord MacDonald really was a straw that broke the camel's back.
Yeah, I mean, there have been lots of letters today, which I think are incredibly damning from the Chancellor, the Health Secretary, from Macdonald, from others that are coming in now.
Peter Bone here, Conservative Member of Parliament, says this is all completely overblown.
No evidence that Boris Johnson has lied.
Actually, we should be focused on policy.
The public don't care about party gay, and we don't care if Boris Johnson told a bunch of porkies about a sexual predator.
Your reaction to that?
Not say that.
Well, look, I respect Peter greatly.
He's a good friend, but I'm going to differ with him on this.
I spent, I don't know how long, knocking on doors since the beginning of the year, and the message I've been getting has been pretty consistent and it's got worse.
So, you know, in my view, the Conservative Party is the best party for the future of our country.
It is absolutely essential, in my view, that we move on now and change leader, thank Boris for what he's achieved, and his achievements have been significant.
But we need now to move on, choose a new leader, new Prime Minister, that will take us to the general election.
What if he just does what he normally does and refuse?
He just says, no, I just survived a no-confidence vote.
I get another year under the current rules.
You can all go do one.
I'm staying as Prime Minister.
I don't care what any of you do or however many of you resign.
Yeah, Piers, I get that.
And you all know that previous Prime Ministers would have been gone way before now.
148 colleagues expressing no confidence.
That would have been instant death under normal circumstances.
You know, one of Boris's characteristics, qualities, if you want, is his tenacity.
And he's certainly displaying that at the moment.
But there comes a point where it simply becomes untenable.
And I think we've reached that point.
You know, even as I'm talking to you...
Right.
I mean, I have a ticker here on a little iPad with just the latest updates.
Joe Gideon, MP, Conservative MP, Vistokon, Trent Central, no longer supports Boris Johnson as Prime Minister.
I mean, they're just rattling in now like falling dominoes.
At what point do we reach a tipping point?
Could it be tonight?
Could Boris Johnson be made literally an untenable leader tonight?
It could well be.
I really don't know.
The 148 should have done it for him.
But us backbenchers, I'm afraid we failed in our bid to change things.
It's now up to the cabinet.
And I think it's a responsibility of my senior cabinet colleagues to go and see Boris, knock on his door and say, look, Chump, the game is up.
But it has to be done in significant numbers.
I hope very much they will, because those who continue to serve in his administration, I'm afraid, are going to be tarred with the same brush.
And it's no good Conservatives going on about Keir Starmer having served under Jeremy Corbyn if we are prepared to tolerate potential successes continuing to serve in this administration under Boris Johnson.
Well, I'm sure people may be trying to break into his door, but knowing Boris Johnson, he might have run into a giant fridge to hide from the heat.
Mandate to Govern or Step Down 00:14:52
That's his normal preferred position that he takes when confrontation beckons.
But Dr. Morrison, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
I appreciate it, especially on a busy night for you after your resignation.
So thank you very much.
Well, you're watching extended breaking news coverage as Chancellor Rishi Sunak and the Health Secretary Sajid Javid both sensationally have resigned from the government tonight.
Will Boris Johnson be forced out by closer play?
We'll have more after the break.
Welcome back to a special two-hour edition of Piers Morgan on Censored.
You're watching extended breaking news coverage on a dramatic night for British politics.
Chancellor Rishi Sunak and the Health Secretary Sajid Javid have both resigned from the government tonight.
Many others have been falling on their swords too at all levels of this government.
Is the government about to collapse?
Will Boris Johnson even survive tonight?
I'm rejoined by my Pierce Pact tonight, political commentator Adam Bolton, talk TV contributor Esther Kraku, and the Conservative MP Peter Bone, who hasn't quite been gnawed on enough for my liking.
So, Peter, look, you've heard some of your colleagues there, and they really do believe that, you know, policy is one thing, but when every single weekend is another slew of scandals, lies, counterclaims, and so on.
And I watched it this weekend with Theresa Coffey, and then I saw this guy I'd never really heard of, Quince, go out on Monday, trying to defend the indefensible.
And I felt sorry for them.
It's like, at what stage do politicians realise they can't function because it's just constant defensive mode against scandals?
Well, you had Andrew Merrison on.
He's a serious politician who should be listened to.
I mean, some other people have got access to grants.
Of course.
And we're now in a situation where the party is in complete turmoil.
One or two things are going to happen.
Tonight, colleagues from the cabinet will go and tell Boris, I'm afraid time is up.
Do you know that?
Or are you guessing?
Well, I mean, that's what's going to happen.
Or they're going to say, right, we're going to carry on, in which case, there has to be a huge statement from Boris Johnson.
There has to be a new cabinet.
But the problem the Prime Minister is going to have is they've got an openly split party.
So I think tonight...
I don't think they're very split.
I think they're pretty united on the fact that they don't like him.
I mean, if almost half of your MPs are trying to get rid of you, it is split the number of people.
No, no, honestly.
By the way, that number is going up very fast.
I mean, there are about half a dozen others other than the two cabinet ministers who are resigning from various jobs.
Of course, Bim Afalami, we had resigning live on Talk TV from his job as vice chair.
But one name that everyone is talking about is Jonathan Gullis.
You may not have heard of him.
He's the MP for Stoke-on-Trent.
Red Wall.
Yeah, exactly.
He was only a PPS, but this is what he says tonight about his resignation.
I've been a member of the Conservative Party my entire adult life, a party I believe represents opportunity for all.
I feel for too long we have been focused on dealing with our reputational damage rather than delivering to the people of the country and spreading opportunity to all, which is why I came into politics.
It's for this reason I can no longer serve as part of your...
I think it's a really interesting point because it basically infers as a kind of paralysis on the policy that Peter's desperately trying to get things back onto.
You can't really move with any policy when all the time it's just constant scandal, scandal, scandal.
You can't go.
Yeah, I mean, he is one of the MPs why Boris Johnson has this big majority, a Red Wall MP.
And he's been very committed to Boris Johnson.
He's still praising what he does, but says we can't do what he's doing.
So I'm just being told on very good authority that Boris Johnson is going to try and attempt to carry on.
That's not a surprise, knowing Boris Johnson.
Right, of course, you know, he's the ultimate slippery eel.
Stephen Swinford, political editor of the Times, has done a reshuffle rumour latest.
He's hearing that Steve Barclay could replace Sajid Javid as health secretary and that Liz Truss might be the new Chancellor.
Peter, your reaction to that?
Well, it goes back.
Well, it's all Adam says.
I mean, Jonathan has been a very vocal supporter of the Prime Minister because he wants the policy.
The question is, if he can't deliver the policy, he won't be able to continue as Prime Minister.
So he's either got to come out and say, this is my new vision, this is my new team, back me.
But that's going to be really difficult.
Well, so I don't even know that Boris Johnson knows what his new vision is.
He's been flip-flopping so much in the last three years.
He came in on a very clear thing, get Brexit done.
And now if you asked 100 people on the street, what does Boris Johnson's vision look like?
They wouldn't have a clue.
Even Brexit is just nothing happening on it.
But let's be serious about this.
If you're a loyal Conservative MP like Peter, can you seriously go on the doorstep, go on television and say, yeah, Liz Truss is a great Chancellor.
Yeah, Nadine Doris is a great member of the cabinet.
I mean, you know, the problem is we are down to the least talented members of the cabinet.
In all your experience, is there any way Boris Johnson can survive this?
Well, the one that interests me is whether he might try and detonate a general election.
Really?
That would be suicidal.
Because we've got, well, it might be suicidal for the Conservative Party, but it might serve his purposes to just say, you know, I did it.
I got here.
As Jacob Reese Mogg said tonight, he's got this majority of 80.
He has a mandate to go on governing.
And I think he's egotistical enough to do a couple of things.
Yeah, I wouldn't put anything past.
I think the Winner Saturny general election and we no longer have the fixed term parliament.
Okay, going to bring in the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Sir Vince Cable, is joining me now.
Sir Vince, great to talk to you.
Thank you for joining me.
Can Boris Johnson survive this and should he survive this?
Well, I don't think he should, but he might.
To use your metaphor, the slippery eel or the greased piglet.
I mean, he has formidable powers of escapology.
And I was interested in the suggestion that I've just heard that, you know, he might call a general election.
I mean, it seems improbable given the level of unpopularity, but he could go and say, look, I was given a clear mandate two and a half, three years ago.
I've got all kind of intrigues going on.
I want to reassert my authority.
I mean, I doubt he'd get away with it, but he might try it as an option.
But when you have, Servince, when you have two, look, when you have two of your most competent performers in the cabinet, Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid, two people doing, by common consent, a pretty good job in very difficult circumstances, when they both resign at the same time from two of the biggest jobs in government, when on both their briefs, it couldn't get any bigger or more important.
There's a pandemic and a financial crisis, and the health secretary and the chancellor resign.
How does the prime minister go to the electorate and say, yeah, things are going great, vote to me?
Before you answer that, Servince, don't answer yet.
Just watching live pictures of Nadeem Zahawi, Education Secretary, going into number 10 Downing Street.
Now, what's he going to do?
Is he going to have a chat with Boris Johnson where Boris offers him a new job?
Is he going to be asked if he wants to be Chancellor?
Maybe he wants to be Foreign Secretary if Liz Truss becomes Chancellor.
Or is he going in there to put the final blade into the political back of his leader?
It'd be pretty dramatic if that was what was about to happen.
So we'll bring you any news we get.
Nadeem Zahawi is in the building.
He's one of the key people here.
We haven't really heard from him tonight.
So we don't know what's going to go on.
So Vince, back to you.
How does, honestly, how does Boris Johnson even contemplate an election?
Going to the British electorate and saying, yeah, I know that most of my party now hate me, and most of my competent cabinet ministers have had to resign because I'm so useless, but vote for me.
The future's rosy.
Well, it's certainly a tough sell.
And if I were one of the leaders of the opposition parties, I'd be rubbing my hands at the prospect.
But it's something, it is an option for him to consider.
And I think if he was being really brutal with the people who've just resigned, he would point out that Saudi Javed has already resigned once because he wouldn't accept the authority of number 10.
He would point out that both of them are reform non-doms.
I'm putting it politely.
He will, you know, rich boys, if they were really ruthless in number 10, they would do a demolition job.
They almost destroyed Sunak a few months ago.
And, you know, I wouldn't put it past the number 10 machine to double down on this, you know, admittedly very, very difficult situation for them.
I mean, it's not just difficult, is it?
Even as I'm talking to you, there's more stuff flashing in.
It's like transfer deadline day on Sky Sports.
Just like every two minutes, somebody else is coming out expressing no confidence.
We already know 148 didn't have confidence in him last time.
That was 42% of Tory MPs.
I think we're over half.
Nicola Richards, another one, Nicola Richardson.
Nicola Richards, Conservative MP for West Bromwich, has resigned as a PPS.
So Vince, again, if you were the leader of the country and in the space of the last hour, I'm counting now at least a dozen people of all ranks who've either resigned from their positions or said they no longer have confidence in him when they previously did.
But the game's up, isn't it?
No, if I was trying to put myself in that position, I would see some attraction in dignified retirement, going off and finishing the volume on Shakespeare, resigning my seat in Henley and just getting on with life with my young family.
I think that would be an attractive option.
But this is a very distinctively different politician who's, you know, populist to a degree and very preoccupied with maintaining his power and his position.
So I wouldn't put anything past him.
The way you set out the argument for a short-term retirement seems to me entirely rational for those of us who are rational.
Yeah, I mean, you know, the advantage Boris Johnson would have, he remains the most recognisable, famous face of British politics.
And he's not really old by any normal political yardstick.
I mean, by American presidential standards, he's a spring chicken.
So, you know, he could easily just disappear for a couple of years and then come back.
And he's got 30 days to go to overtake Theresa May.
Yes, I saw that.
In terms of his time in office, so maybe he want to hang on to do that.
I saw that.
So Vince Cable, thank you very much for joining me.
I appreciate it.
You'll take a short break.
When we come back, we'll continue with breaking news coverage, dramatic night in British politics.
It'll be a two-hour special edition of Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Chancellor Rishi Sunak, Health Secretary Taliban Jabin, both resigned from the government.
Dozens more, at least a dozen more.
PPSs and other junior ranking people in the government have resigned as well, offer no confidence.
We'll be bringing you all this breaking news after the program.
Welcome back to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
You're watching extended breaking news coverage of the dramatic events in British politics.
Two views tonight about how things may be going.
One from Chris Mason, the BBC political editor, who says that a Tory MP source has described the atmosphere around Westminster as a stench of death.
But Jacob Reese Mogg sees the positive.
When asked, do you think the Prime Minister will be gone by the end of the year?
He says, I'm going for Robert Walpole.
He did 21 years.
I'd like to see the Prime Minister do better than Walpole.
Of course, I'm sure that reflects the wishes of the nation, as always, Mr. Rees Mogg.
I'm rejoined by my panel.
Esther, who do you want to see take over?
You're a Conservative.
You know, you've had enough time to think about this.
We've been writing Boris's obituary.
Assuming this is finally the moment it may get published, who do you want to see take over?
I mean, if you read my Twitter, I've been staunchly backing Penny Mordaunt.
I think at a time like this, you know, I know a lot of the MPs that did back Boris, the vote of no confidence, genuinely just didn't believe there was anyone.
There was a decent successor lined up.
And I don't think that's how you should govern a nation.
You shouldn't have this train, like train wreck in office because you do not believe that there is a decent successor.
But I do think Penny Mordaunt is probably the best.
People say she's not the best known, but I think that could be to the Conservatives' advantage because right.
Adam, should we be reading something with the fact that Rishi and Sajid Javid have gone at the same time?
Could they have done a deal where Rishi may go for leader?
Sajid would be his Chancellor or whatever?
Well, they say not.
They say this wasn't coordinated, although Sajid Javi does say he spoke to Rishi Sunak over the weekend.
It must be coordinated.
I don't think so.
I think they probably worked out where each other stood.
And, you know, it was a very dramatic moment as the pre-recorded Boris Johnson saying, I got it wrong, appointing Chris Pincher, but I didn't do anything wrong statements going out.
That's when these resignations started.
Yeah, but I think, you know, obviously it's irresistible to speculate on who's going to take over.
But we have to remember when the Tory Party has these crises, they want to get rid of the predecessor, Margaret Thatcher, but they're not necessarily even worked out in their own minds who they want to emerge afterwards.
It's because the person in the top job has become a liability.
We've got a reaction now from Sakir Starmer, leader of the Labour Party.
Here's what he said.
He has disgraced his office and let down his.
And frankly, if they had a shred of integrity, they would have gone months ago.
The Tory party is corrupted and changing one man at the top won't fix it.
We need a real change of government and a fresh start for Britain.
Well, I'm joined now by former Conservative Minister Anna Subury.
Anna Subury, good to talk to you tonight.
Obviously, a very febrile atmosphere down there.
Can Boris survive this, do you think?
I don't see how he can.
But equally, he is the great Klingon.
And I think he will try every trick in the book somehow to keep this ship sailing.
But actually, it's completely holed beneath the waterline and it's doomed.
But goodness, I mean, who knows?
Truthfully, who really knows?
Do you believe Keir Starmer?
Does Keir Starmer, do you think, really want Boris to go?
Or does he now think he's such a wounded beast that actually having him stay there, drip, drip, drip of his authority by the day receding, that actually is better off for the Labour Party if Boris stays?
No, yeah, absolutely right.
Shoring Up Position with Quick Appointments 00:11:40
Boris Johnson is one of Labour's biggest assets.
But actually, I genuinely think that Keir Starmer genuinely wants him to go for the sake of the country because of this terrible destruction of trust in politics, the huge damage that is being done to trust in politics and the sheer incompetence as well.
But, you know, Conservative MPs, with quite a few exceptions probably, but in all seriousness, they're not stupid.
And a large number of them are, they know that their own seats are at risk.
Their majority is seriously at risk under Boris Johnson's leadership.
No, you've already talked about the two by-elections, the opinion polls and so on and so forth.
And, you know, what's really, I think, surprising, Pierce, is that obviously I'm old enough to remember when Margaret Thatcher stood down.
I remember when Ian Duncan Smith stepped down.
The Tory Party was always really good at being ruthless, unlike Lane, who couldn't ditch Corbyn, for example.
But they've always been good at being really ruthless and getting rid of a lame duck, a liability of a leader, but not in this instance.
And that's because Boris Johnson is like no other leader.
Well, we haven't got a bit of breaking news.
As we've been talking, Steve Barclay has indeed been appointed the new Secretary of State for Health.
So Boris Johnson is trying to fill the gaps as fast as he possibly can.
Anna Subri, thank you for joining me.
I appreciate it very much.
The market being made Barclay going means that's the third Prime Minister's bagman close advisor who's gone in the year.
Right.
And this is obviously in the middle of a pandemic too.
So we have a brand new health secretary as we're coming out of a pandemic, which is in itself, you know, not what you would want, I would imagine, from a competent government.
We'll take a short break.
We'll be back with more dramatic breaking news.
There's stuff happening every two minutes here.
Stay with us on Piers Morgan Uncensored.
We'll have it all.
Welcome back to a special extended edition of Piers Morgan Uncensored, all the breaking news coverage after Chancellor Wishy Sunak and Health Secretary.
Sajid Javi Sensation resigned from the government tonight.
They'll be followed by lots of other people in the Conservative Party at all ranks, either quitting or saying they have no confidence anymore in Boris Johnson.
Joined now by Trevor Kavanagh from The Sun, political doyen of the Sun for several decades.
Trevor, is it over for Boris?
Yes, I think so.
This is beginning to resemble a...
Sorry, I'm getting feedback here.
It's beginning to resemble a sketch from the Dead Parrot where Boris is basically finished.
He's done.
He's a dead man walking.
And the idea that he would be able to call a general election two and a half years into a perfectly good majority government with 85 seat majority, I don't think the Queen would grant that, especially when most of the party would be against it.
That's a really interesting point.
Can the Queen then refuse to grant that?
Well, I think she's done it in the past simply because there's no reason for a general election right now.
Not if you've got the same Prime Minister with an 80-seat majority and only two and a half years into a parliament.
It simply doesn't wash.
We both do columns for the Sun.
The Sun's a very powerful voice in these situations, especially with the Conservative Party.
The Sun has held off until now, calling for Boris to go.
Is that position, do you think, likely to change imminently?
Well, it's very difficult to be supporting a Prime Minister who's basically brought this entirely upon his own head, not just because of the recent days and weeks, but over time since the North Shropshire by-election was triggered by the support for an MP who was breaking rules and being supported in that only by a handful of people.
They lost that seat, which was one of the safest in Britain.
They've since lost two more, and they've had 148 MPs voting against this Prime Minister.
The position is totally untenable, and I do not see Boris lasting many more days if he makes it to the weekend.
There'll be a lot of sun readers, I guess, who voted Brexit and liked Boris's chutzpur.
How much damage do you think Partygate did to their feelings about Boris?
Because I felt that from the polls began to change quite markedly through Party Gate and coming out of it, that once that trust got broken, so many sunreaders would have been unable to see relatives in hospital and so on.
They would have remembered the image of the Queen on her own at Prince Philip's funeral and then found out there were two parties in Downing Street the night before and so on.
How damaging do you think Partygate has been to Boris Johnson?
Extremely damaging.
And interestingly, though, I think that the public was beginning to get used to that.
They begin to write that off, but it's been overtaken by even bigger scandals.
And so the goodwill that has been quite enduring for Boris among those Brexit voters, among many people who like Boris and who tend to break out into a smile as soon as he enters the room, whether they agree with his politics or not, I think that's gone.
And once you lose that particular brand of appeal that's totally unique to Boris Johnson, there isn't very much else left.
And what we've had is a Prime Minister who came into office with a string of promises on making Brexit work, many of which have been left untouched.
You've got a Prime Minister who has basically turned his back on everything he wrote in his columns in the Daily Telegraph, which were to give the impression that he was a right-wing Tory Thatcherite, only to bring in all sorts of measures on green issues and civil liberties, which I think that many people began to think was basically a pale pink version of the Labour Party.
So there's very little ground left for Boris to walk on, and it's beginning to open up beneath his feet.
And when you put your mystic Trevor hat on, who would you put your money on to be the next Tory leader if he does go?
I understand that if Ben Wallace was on the final ticket, he would win it with the party faithful, who will in the end decide under present rules.
Rishi cannot be written off.
I think that despite all the stories about his green card status and his wife's billions, I think that he is one of the few and also is, of course, a real Brexiteer, which is a huge Trump card to play in this particular battle.
Much of the Conservative Party is still focused on Brexit and making it work.
He's one of the few who could.
But Nadeem Zahawi going into number 10 tonight, that's an interesting development because quite a lot of people fancy him as a possible Prime Minister, quite a unique sort of character in the Tory Party, self-made man, an immigrant who arrived at the age of eight, unable to speak English.
So there's still a field out there and there are lots of other wannabes who have been there running and riding with the hope of becoming Prime Minister.
Could Nadeem be Chancellor before maybe the hour is out?
Well it depends on.
I guess that what he would be volunteering for was to become the ex-Chancellor, unless, of course, the new Prime Minister, once he's installed, keeps him on.
It's a big risk and I'm not sure that he'd want to take that.
Trevor Kavanagh, as always, expert analysis, much appreciated.
Thank you.
Take a short break now and be back with more dramatic breaking news.
It's happening every minute.
We're up to number 20 update so far.
So this has been on air, so stay with us.
We'll try and keep on top of it all.
We'll be back with Kate McCann, who's down at Westminster for all the latest resignations in the last few minutes.
We've got Anne Whitticomb waiting.
Wonder what she thinks about all this.
Is she finally losing faith in Boris Johnson?
We're watching Piers World Censored special to our edition.
Stay with us.
Welcome back to Piers Morgan Uncensored.
A big night for British politics.
Watching extended breaking news coverage will be on air until 10 o'clock after Chancellor Rishi Sunak and Health Secretary Sajid Javid both sensationally resigned from the government.
Traffic Cavalry, Masson, just told us that he thinks it's all over for Boris Johnson.
Well, I'm joined now by Talk TV's digital editor, Kate McCann, again.
Kate, good to talk to you.
Where are we?
I mean, I've got this feed here of stuff going on.
A lot of people either resigning from various positions in the Conservative Party and government or offering no support for the Prime Minister when they previously did.
Yeah, look, I think what's really interesting, Piers, is what's been happening in the last hour or so is the Prime Minister is clearly trying to shore up his position by appointing people really quickly into those key roles.
So we've seen that Steve Barkley was in number 10, had a really important role actually for Boris Johnson, acting as eyes and ears, a little bit of an enforcer, if you like.
He's been moved to Health Secretary, replaces Sajid Javid.
Now there is conversation, it's not been confirmed yet, that Nadim Zahawi, who's the Education Secretary at the moment, could be replaced by the University's Minister, Michelle Donnellan, because she's also been seen by PA, the news agency, going into number 10 tonight.
So if that were to happen, the question is, where does Mr. Zahawi go?
Now, does he go to Chancellor or does the Prime Minister make Liz trust Chancellor and move him to head up the Foreign Office?
Now, as I say, we don't know yet, but what's really clear is the Prime Minister is trying to move quickly to stem the tide of cabinet ministers resigning to shore up his position in Downing Street, which again tells you that he has no intention of moving on tonight.
But what's happening on the lower level down, those PPSs, slightly more junior ministers, now they are starting to resign, starting to put their letters in.
Some of those, Nicola Richards, for example, she was a PPS in the transport department.
Now, these might not necessarily be people that you've heard of, but they are really important because what it shows you is that among those in that lower tier of government, there is real wobbles going on now.
And those are the ones who come up, of course, from the bottom and replace those senior positions.
Now, I was just looking down at my phone when you came over to us, Piers, because we've just had an exchange of letters.
Remember, those letters are traditional when we see a resignation.
The Prime Minister has written to Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid.
Now, I'm just scanning that on my phone as we speak.
The PM's letter says, Dear Rishi, I'm sorry to receive your letter resigning from the government.
He goes on to talk about the furlough scheme, about all the things that Rishi Sunak has done for the government when it comes to moving out of the pandemic.
And he finishes by saying, through all of this, you've not shied from the tough decisions needed to repair our public finances while protecting public services, etc., etc.
We have begun to deliver tax cuts to families.
And then he talks about the tax cut this week.
That was what was supposed to be on the agenda this week.
I have enormously valued your advice and deep commitment to public service, and I will miss working with you in government.
So clearly, that is felt as a loss by the Prime Minister.
And there is another one in my inbox which has just dropped from the Prime Minister to Sajid Javid, which I imagine will run along the same lines.
Yes, the Prime Minister says you will be greatly missed, and I look forward to your contributions from the backbenches again, outlining the significant positions the former Health Secretary has held.
So stemming those tides, I think, Piers.
The question is, how long will it last?
Well, what's the answer?
Well, you know what?
After the top of the programme, I'm not sure I'm best equipped.
I think what the Prime Minister is going to try and do is to shore up his position, as I said.
Now, that's important because what we could have seen tonight, after those really senior resignations, is for Boris Johnson and his aides to step back, to go quiet, and essentially to do nothing, to try and think about what to do next.
Conservative Party Writing Itself Off 00:03:53
I think a little bit of that happened this afternoon in Parliament because they already knew that they were on shaky ground.
And that's why we saw the Prime Minister come out speaking pretty openly in a clip saying, I'm not going anywhere.
And then there was rumours that he was gathering all his supporters in his parliamentary office at around six o'clock tonight.
Now, that was overtaken by events by those resignations.
But he had an intention from the very start today to try and do everything that he can to shore up that position.
I think he's helped by the fact that Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, and Liz Truss currently at the Foreign Office, have remained in position tonight.
I think if either of those two had left, then there would be a real question about a potential leadership contest.
But that does hang over him, not just because of those 1922 committee elections next week and changing potentially of that makeup of that committee, but also, remember, the Privileges Committee, they've started their investigation.
That could be really problematic for Boris Johnson in the months ahead.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think we'll get that far, but we'll see.
Thank you very much, Kate.
We'll be back to you later in the programme.
Former Conservative MP, Anne Whitticomb, is with me.
Anne, thank you for joining me.
Will Boris Johnson survive, do you think?
I think it's becoming harder and harder for him to do so.
If anybody can, he can.
He is something of a Houdini.
But what he desperately needs in Downing Street is grip.
Nobody seems to have a grip on this.
He says things to the press, then he recalls something different.
Then he recalls something different again.
And nobody seems to be saying to him right at the beginning, the same was true of Partygate, right at the beginning, hang on, Prime Minister, don't say anything until we've just been through this and we know what the situation is and we know what the accusations are.
Nobody's doing that.
Nobody's done it since Dominic Cummings left.
Right.
I mean, isn't the truth, though, that Boris did what he's done many times.
He lied, thought he'd just get away with it.
He got caught.
Then he plays the big sob story, I'm so sorry.
And this time it's like the boy who cry wolf, everyone's had enough.
It's like you can't keep apologising for not understanding or forgetting.
I'm so sorry.
But eventually people go, you know what?
We're done with this.
You keep saying you didn't do something, and then it turns out you did.
It's called lying.
Yeah, okay, I've got the question.
I agree with you entirely that, you know, he can't keep on doing this.
And the real weakness is that he speaks before he thinks.
If he thought back to the things he'd said about Chris Pincher properly and gone through it with somebody, he would never have come out with those silly statements saying, well, I didn't know anything about this.
The trouble is, I'm not going to say he panics as such, but he's all over the place.
And that's why I say there's no grip there at all.
And the line between lying and simply not recalling and not understanding and not bothering to focus can sometimes be very thin.
Now, the important thing to me is that the Conservative Party, if it is any longer capable of doing this, pulls itself together to fight a general election.
If we're now going to have a prolonged period in which there is a leadership campaign with heaven knows how many candidates, then the party isn't going to be focused on anything except itself.
And it needs to be focused on the country.
And at a time when we have a national financial crisis, there's war raging in Europe.
You know, we have a pandemic that is still raging and looking like there may be another wave of that.
It's the worst possible time, frankly, for this government to turn all narcissistic and talk about itself the next six weeks.
But there may be no choice.
Virginia Crosby has just resigned as PPS to the Wales Office.
Number of PPS is going tonight and is mounting.
And they may not be senior ministers like Rishi Sunak and Sajja Javid, but they still matter.
They are members of this government and they're dropping like dominoes.
Dropping like dominoes.
Yeah, I mean, there is obviously a movement going on.
And I do have to say to Rishi, and indeed to Sajeed, I do have to say, what exactly is it you knew today that you didn't know yesterday?
Chaos Amidst a Raging Pandemic 00:14:58
You know, why is this suddenly happening?
And that is why I say I think it's going to be very, very hard for the Prime Minister to survive.
But frankly, the option, which is a leadership election, isn't going to do the party any good at all.
I think what's happening at the moment, you ask if Boris can survive, I think what's happening at the moment is the Conservative Party is busy writing itself off as the party of government next time.
That's what it's doing at the moment.
Wow.
Anne Whittaker, thank you very much indeed.
I really appreciate it.
Well, I'm joined.
Do you know what?
Let's just have a little moment.
Let's have a little moment because maybe you're upset about Boris Johnson potentially game.
Maybe you're loving it.
But one thing we can surely be united about is English sport.
And Cameron Norrie today, our last remaining hope at Wimbledon, did this.
Cameron Norrie through to the semifinals of Wimbledon, which is brilliant.
And that followed what for me personally was an even greater achievement.
The England, the new sizzling, sexy England cricket test team, managing to chase down the highest ever total that an England batting team has ever chased in the history of Test cricket.
Absolutely brilliant achievement.
They're talking about it being Bazball after the new coach, Brendan McCullum.
I like to call it the Bob Benham Baz Show because Rob Key was the man brought into running and cricket and the first two appointments he makes.
Ben Stokes captain, Brendan McCullum coach.
And look, we've won four tests on the bounce.
Bearstow's been turned into the new Bradman.
Joe Root's the greatest batsman of all time.
It is the most exciting time to ever watch England cricket and I am jubilant about that.
That's the end of the happy news.
Well, it depends, isn't it?
You might be happy that Boris Johnson, but I don't think we should ever be happy when a British government collapses in ignomy and scandal and lies.
It's not good for the country, is it?
It's not good for any of us.
Why would any of us want that?
This is actually something that shames our country.
The British Prime Minister has to resign because his own party turned on him because he kept telling whoppers and kept breaking his own rules.
That's not good.
We should demand better from our leaders.
Adam Bolton.
Pierre, just to make one point, we just heard Anne Whitticomb say what changed overnight.
I think we shouldn't lose sight of what happened today, which is that it has been proven that the people sent out by Boris Johnson, including cabinet ministers, told untruths.
But Simon MacDonald blew the lid on.
Explain who he is.
Simon MacDonald was basically the head of the Foreign Office on behalf of the civil service.
And he came out with a public letter and media appearance saying Boris Johnson was briefed in person about Mr. Pincher doing the things that he did last week in the Foreign Office in 2019.
Boris Johnson knew about it.
Now, the line that has been taken by Downing Street since Mr. Pincher was outed by a fellow Tory MP who was at the Carlton Club last week is Boris Johnson knew nothing about it and was therefore quite happy to promote him.
And Boris Johnson has had to admit today that that wasn't true.
Yeah, he said he can't, he couldn't recall the fact that he'd been told this, that one of his closest aides, ministers, when he was in the Foreign Office, had been sexually aggressive towards men and he says he'd forgotten that.
There's a word for this.
It's called horsemanure.
And also, I'm sorry.
It's horsemanure.
But joined by talk TV presenter, Leader of the Reform UK, Richard Tice.
I mean, you're presumably what?
Well, we're all horrified because of what is happening to trust in politics and, frankly, to the leadership of our country.
You've just mentioned the great news of the best of British, the sporting news.
But the leadership of our country is the most important thing.
Yeah.
And it's a disaster.
I mean, the Justice Secretary, Deputy Prime Minister, went on Talk TV this morning and tried to say that Simon MacDonald, Lord MacDonald, was completely wrong.
They've all been sent out basically to sell a lie.
And the truth is, the big ship Boris is hold fatally below the waterline.
And it's a question of how long it takes to sink.
And why would anybody sensible, credible, tangible, want to join that ship and become health secretary?
I mean, that's a really interesting question.
If you're Nadeem Zahawi, he's managed to be fairly immune from a lot of the worst criticism of the government in the last three years.
Why would you, if you're him, take a risk of taking a top job under a man who may not be leading?
He would be losing all his credibility and if he wanted to, damaging his chances in a subsequent leadership election.
And this is the point.
Anybody who stays in this cabinet, I think is fatally damaging the political state.
I think they're cowardly.
Right.
Adam, I think what's going on in Downing Street right now with Nadeem Zahawi is actually critical for Boris Johnson because either Boris Johnson can persuade him to become the new chancellor or whatever, in which case it's a vote of confidence from a key member of the cabinet that people I think generally respect.
Or if Nadeem Zahawi comes out and hasn't been persuaded and he then resigns, it could be all over tonight.
Or he could be, if you like, the hero of the hour that he could manage to persuade Boris Johnson that the game's up.
Right.
I mean, remember.
Maybe why he's gone in.
Remember, that's what happened to Margaret Thatcher was privately people said, look, you can't go on like this.
You'd better go.
Although a counter-argument has been put about tonight suggesting that he could be the John Major, the man who steps in.
You remember John Major stepped in after Nigel Lawson resigned.
And he went from being an unknown to being the next leader of the Tory Party.
Esther, let me take you back to December 2019.
I remember attending a Christmas party a few days after the election.
And it was utter jubilance from Boris and his team.
This thumping, massive majority.
They've got Brexit done.
They'll be able to get everything else done.
The majority was so huge that nothing could stop them.
But two and a half years later.
I know how to do it.
And it's descending into utter shambles.
What do you think, John Rollins?
I mean, this is a different.
I know it's hard to believe, but this is a different season in politics, right?
Boris, you know, as hard as it is to believe, was not elected because he's some shining beacon of truth and integrity.
It was a clear message to the Labour Party and to the people opposing the largest democratic mandate this public this country has ever given to get Brexit done.
And he was given that massive majority for that reason.
He broke the Red Wall, you know, and a stupendous act.
That red wall is basically building itself back.
Extraordinarily, he reinforced the Red Wall with Hartlepool, very nearly delivered at Batley and Spencer.
It's within literally nine months.
It was the Owen Patterson affair party game.
That's when it turned out.
Yeah, and another one, we've already been talking about Jonathan Gullis step on Trent going.
Virginia Crosby, who you mentioned, she's from Innismon, Anglesey, but was another one of these Red Wall victories in unlikely places.
Yeah, I mean, the Red Wall is being rebuilt pretty rapidly, I would say.
I mean, if you're, again, it comes back, if you're Kier Starmer, tactically, I mean, he's got to survive his own issues with Durham police, but if he does, tactically, do you want Boris Johnson to go or do you want him, like you said, hold in the water?
I mean, the Red Wall is being rebuilt, but with no joy, with no enthusiasm at the doors, but with anger, which in its own way, with frustration, which could in itself be an election winner, right?
If there's real fury.
The tragedy is the fury will be demonstrated by people not voting.
There's no enthusiasm to go back and vote for Kirsten.
No, he doesn't motivate and excite an interview.
No, but the polls suggest the polls suggest right now he would win an election.
And if the longer Boris stays, I think the more the polls will swing away from him.
Got to take a short break.
Stay here.
Richard, we'll be back after the break.
But more breaking news.
There's a lot happening tonight.
We'll try and keep on top of it all.
There have been about 20 updates of people either resigning from their government positions or expressing no confidence, having previously supported the Prime Minister.
So a lot going on.
Will Boris Johnson resign tonight?
It could happen.
Anything could happen.
Stay with us.
We'll have it all.
Welcome back.
You're watching a special two-hour edition of Piers Morgan on Sensib, big night British politics.
Chancellor Rishi Sunak, Health Secretary Sajid Javi, both resign from the government.
You're watching live footage outside number 10 down the street of a car.
We don't know whose car it is.
Here's what I think.
If Nadeem Zahawi comes out and gets into that car or just comes out the front, he's going to be the new Chancellor.
If Nadeem Zahawi doesn't get seen again, it means he's crept out in the back, and I reckon he might resign.
So it's going to be very dramatic.
He's been in there an hour.
What is going on between Nadeem Zahawi, Education Secretary and key cabinet member, and the Prime Minister?
Is Boris begging him not to resign?
Is Nadeem Zahawi begging Boris to resign?
Is anybody begging anyone to do anything?
We'll be monitoring that car because that car seems to me extremely important.
Also, note the silence of the lambs.
Where's Michael Gove?
Where's Grant Shaps?
Normally the first one out the traps to support Boris Johnson.
Silent the transport secretary tonight, isn't he?
Pretty Patel.
Where's she disappeared to?
Is she at the opera with Theresa May?
What's going on?
Remember, if Boris doesn't last another 30 days, he's even worse than Theresa May.
You wouldn't want that badge of honour on your political CV, would you?
So a lot going on.
Now, Talk TV's international editor, Isabel O'Shaugh, who is international at the moment, has broken off from being international to join me live.
Isabel, your reaction to what's going on tonight?
Well, utterly extraordinary.
And I just cannot see how the Prime Minister can survive this.
Perhaps he can stagger on for another few days.
You talked about 30 days to beat the last record Theresa May's premiership.
I wonder whether he hopes to stagger on until the 21st of July when the Commons breaks up for summer recess and he'll hope that MPs are too distracted by the thoughts of their summer holidays or rather misery at the airport to continue plotting.
I think that's a very forlorn hope.
I think, as you say, watching what's going on with Nadeem Zahawi in number 10 at the moment is pivotal.
A lot of rumours swirling around that Zahawi is demanding to be made chancellor and that if he is not made chancellor, he will walk.
The speculation being that Boris Johnson wants to appoint Liz Truss, perhaps a more natural fit for that job, and that Nadeem Zahawi is making this his resignation issue.
That is unconfirmed, but I think it is a very intriguing and entirely credible theory.
I mean, what is completely nuts about this, Isabel, is that we're coming out of a pandemic actually.
There's a new wave of the virus coming.
So it's a difficult time in the pandemic where we were hoping it was over.
It clearly isn't.
There's a massive financial crisis and cost of living crisis in this country.
This is the worst possible moment to be having a new health secretary and a new chancellor, isn't it?
Regardless of anything else.
I mean, I cannot imagine any other Prime Minister trying to hold on in these circumstances.
To lose your Chancellor is unfortunate.
To lose also your Health Secretary is doubly unfortunate.
He lost his party chairman.
He's lost two safe seats in the last few days.
It is utterly bewildering that he thinks, you know, the sheer arrogance of it, that he thinks he can somehow cling on.
And look, even if he could cling on, even if he can cling on, the man can't govern.
So what's the point in being there?
How can he govern with his party in utter disarray?
And I think this is going to become surely apparent to even him in the next few hours stroke days.
You know what?
There's a pretty devastating letter here to Boris Johnson from Virginia Crosby, resigned as PPS to the Wales Office.
I'm going to read some of this because this is really light.
I mean, this is one of his own.
Dear Prime Minister, I want to inform you of my resignation.
It's been an honour to serve in the department.
Sadly, I'm forced to say that the sheer number of allegations of impropriety and illegality, many of them centered around Downing Street and your premiership, is quite simply making your position untenable.
I'm of the view that if you continue in office, you risk irrevocably harming this government and the Conservative Party and will hand the keys of Downing Street to a Labour Party unfit to govern.
The inaccurate and contradictory statements over what, excuse me, over what you knew about the former Deputy Chief Whip's conduct before you appointed him was the last straw.
I cannot continue to defend your actions to my constituents who are rightly very angry.
Like others, I've given you the benefit of the doubt on many occasions.
There was in the hope that you would gain control of the situation.
The situation's becoming worse.
I've no idea what's happening at Downing Street, but it appears you're either badly advised or unable to change or reform the dysfunctional operation that you lead.
This dysfunction, and then she says a few nice things up at the end.
I mean, that's a completely devastating indictment of Boris Johnson as a prime minister from one of his own principal private secretaries.
Devastating.
I mean, there's actually been a dozen devastating letters, even one of which in the past would have been enough to topple a prime minister.
And the point isn't actually, as the writer of that letter said, that Downing Street is dysfunctional.
It is the Prime Minister.
He is and has shown himself to be a pathological liar.
His default position, when there is a difficult spot that he's in, is not to just give the honest version of events, it's to talk complete nonsense.
And why has the last straw broken the camel's back today?
Because too many cabinet ministers and other figures in the government had to go out and defend him and were once again made a fool of after it emerged that he was talking utter nonsense.
For a former permanent secretary of the Foreign Office to come out the way he did this morning was utterly devastating.
And I can't in any universe see that Boris Johnson can survive this for more than a few hours stroke days.
Yeah, and it's not actually that he talks nonsense, it's that he lies.
He lies and he gets caught lying and then he pretends he hadn't lied.
Pathological Liar and Broken Trust 00:15:35
Isabel, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
I appreciate it.
Theresa May is at the Royal Opera House tonight to see Cavaliera Rusticana, a story of multiple betrayals and regrets.
That's good.
Do you think that do you think that's a timely moment?
I think it's poetic justice, to put it nicely.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
I mean, Theresa May will be, I guess, slightly revelling in this because of the way that she was done in.
She'll be thinking, well, I could have won.
I mean, at the very least, I would say about Theresa May.
Yes, she was pretty dull.
Yes, she wasn't a brilliant Prime Minister.
But I did feel she had personal integrity.
Oh, absolutely.
I didn't feel she deliberately lied to us.
She failed over policy rather than scandal and a lack of integrity and a lack of trust.
Yeah, and there's a massive difference.
What do you think?
When she speaks in the commons, she can still hold her head up high and she commands a certain amount of respect, even though she divided the country so much over Brexit and moving forward.
And that is what the Prime Minister is refusing to do.
I cannot believe, I mean, this just shows how utterly sort of selfish she is and devoid of any sort of affection.
Exactly.
I mean, I think she gets some respect just for sticking around in the Commons after being Prime Minister.
Yeah, and she's made some very powerful speeches, actually.
Far more than she's ever done before.
But I mean, you know, bear in mind, assuming that this is the end of Boris Johnson, which I think it will be, that will be four Conservative Prime Ministers in 12 years.
Yeah.
You know, which begins to look more than careless.
Yeah.
Well, it does.
And I think that normally signifies the end of a government's reign, doesn't it?
We're going to take a short break.
We'll come back.
We're going to go live back to Downing Street.
See, what's happened to the car?
Fascinating.
Whose car is it?
Has anybody got in it?
Has he just gone off?
Empty.
Was that Nadeem Zahawi's car?
Has he gone out the back?
We'll try and bring you all the answers to these myriad questions after the break.
Stay with us.
He may be in the booth.
Welcome back to a special two-hour edition of Piers Morgan Uncensored.
Chancellor and Health Secretary both resigned.
Many other members of the government are quitting tonight.
It does feel like the beginning and the end of Boris Johnson.
Whereas my wife is just reminding me with a meme that's doing the rounds.
This is an ancient British proverb.
Surely this must mean the end for Boris Johnson.
So let's not, if you are a Boris basher.
I think you should go.
I wouldn't be too excited just yet.
He's got an unnerving habit of slipping through the net, however tight it is around him.
We'll talk radio political editor and former Conservative Party special advisor Peter Carwell joins me now from Downing Street.
Peter, you're in the hotbed of intrigue and I suppose all roads leading at the moment to the Education Secretary Nadim Zahawi who's now been in there I think for about 90 minutes.
A car pulled up.
Nobody's got in.
It's like a mafia hit scene, isn't it?
My thinking being if he comes out the front and gets in the car, he's probably the new Chancellor.
We don't see him again.
He's probably whacked metaphorically the Prime Minister and is resigning.
Your thoughts?
I think it's highly likely.
I think it's highly likely he comes out the front door as Chancellor.
The big Jaguar is just up at the end of the street there and it's likely that he would get into it as the new Chancellor.
Is that his Jaguar?
Downing Street.
Is that his Jaguar?
Is it the Chancellor's Jaguar?
What is it?
They use a lot of different government cars for different ministers.
So the Chancellor certainly is a protected minister.
He would, if Nadeem Zahawi does become Chancellor, he would have 24-hour police protection and it would be an armoured car like the one up at the end of the road.
But it just depends on exactly what's going on behind closed doors.
He is in number 10.
Also Michelle Donnellan, who was one of his deputies at the Education Department, she was the university's minister.
She may well be promoted to be education secretary.
But Nadeem Zahawi was one of the very last, was one of the very last cabinet ministers to actually say whether he was supporting Boris Johnson or not.
He's not on the record saying anything, whereas many other cabinet ministers who are still in the cabinet have said they do.
So it'll be really interesting to see what sort of bargain that he is having with Boris Johnson tonight.
What will he get out of it?
Because usually it doesn't take nearly as long as this to appoint a Chancellor or to do any sort of mini reshuffle.
We remember, of course, there's no Chancellor at the moment.
There is a Health Secretary, that's Steve Barclay.
But also his role as Chief of Staff will have to be filled.
And then the Education Secretary will have to be filled if Nadine Zahawi gets that role.
And of course, there's no chairman of the Conservative Party either.
So there's plenty of rules to fill.
And seven people within the Conservative Party at various ministerial ranks have resigned this evening.
We're just hearing from Ben Wallace.
He's the Defence Secretary.
He says, to be clear, I'm going on Thursday to see brave Ukrainian men and women training to fight for their lives and their country.
I won't be indulging in political parlour games, nor will I be resigning.
So he clearly wants to say, look, work goes on.
I'm a Defence Secretary.
I'm doing my job.
With the subtext, vote for me if there is a leadership contest, I would imagine.
He's certainly at the moment one of the favourites to become the next leader, should there be a contest.
Peter, thank you very much indeed.
Rejoined by Adam, Esther and Richard.
Esther, eight government resignations so far.
Rishi Sunak, Sajid Javid, Andrew Morrison, Saqib Bhati, Bim Afalami, Jonathan Gullis, Nicola Richards, Virginia Crosby.
Eight government resignations in the space of five hours.
How could any prime minister possibly survive this?
I mean, I don't know whether he needs to be dragged out kicking and screaming for him to get the message, but I think this, for me, this is bigger than Boris, right?
Because Conservatives have been quite unhappy with Boris for a while.
This is bigger than him.
This is about the Conservative Party and returning to decency, integrity, and actual Conservative principles.
I think one of your guests nailed it when he said, you know, Boris painted himself as this right-wing Thatcherite, you know, sort of politician and was nothing like that, came in with this ridiculous green agenda that was completely alien to traditional Conservative voters.
And the reality is, for the last two and a half years, we've had different shades of social democrat when that's not really what our politics should look like.
I actually agree.
I mean, Richard, I mean, you're a conservative.
Would you say that?
I mean, in the old fashioned words of reform.
In the old fashioned sense word, like many people, but do you recognise anything about the modern Boris Johnson word that I hope will appear in the Oxford Dictionary called consocialist because that's what they've become?
And it's interesting, isn't it?
The language that Ben Wallace used there, he didn't, he notably did not support the Prime Minister.
He said he's getting on with the job as a professional, which you would expect, particularly a defense secretary.
But then he said he will not be resigning.
No support for the prime minister.
Really telling that.
Significant, right?
I think really significant.
I mean, Adam, words and language are very telling in situations like this, aren't they?
Yes, they are.
I mean, when you've got to...
And silence, by the way, from people we haven't heard from.
We haven't heard from Grant Schatz.
We don't know what Nadeem Zahawi is going to do.
Michael Gove silent.
Well, their offices have apparently said that they're going to support the Prime Minister.
But I mean, we all know from the last few days how much that is worth in terms of reality.
I think everyone will be looking at the odds, trying to work out where it goes.
But what is clear, I think, is, you know, what we haven't talked about is the national interest.
Is it in the national interest that Boris Johnson, wounded as he is, proven liar that he is, goes on trying to lead the country?
If you ask the president of Ukraine right now, he'd be horrified at the thought of Boris Johnson going because he thinks he's been his major ally in Europe in the battle against Vladimir Putin.
And we can't overlook that.
But if you said to the president of Ukraine, the replacement is Ben Wallace, I suspect he would actually be quite relaxed very quickly.
Exactly.
That doesn't need to change.
You know, you can't keep a disaster in because we don't know who's going to replace it anymore.
At the end of the day, we know President Macron thinks he's a clown.
There's no sign of close relations between Joe Biden and Boris Johnson.
None at all, no.
So, you know, as an international figure, I mean, he is a big and amusing figure.
He's a television personality in this country.
He's not someone who travels particularly widely other than someone to laugh.
If Boris is forced out, Adam, where does he rank in the pantheon of British Prime Ministers?
One of the worst, given it's only been two and a half years?
Well, I think he'd be worst prime minister ever.
Really?
Absolutely.
However, I have to say, I was speaking at a meeting of financiers and privately we were discussing this and I said, I think he's the worst prime minister ever.
And they said, no, no, no, the worst prime minister ever is David Cameron because he mishandled the referendum.
Right, that was the view.
So you can make different and some people say Tony Blair is the worst prime minister for Iraq.
My view is all those things were policy decisions which you may or may not support.
Boris Johnson, and I wrote this when I was writing a column for the Sunday Times.
Boris Johnson never had the fibre to be a decent prime minister.
You refer to the national interest.
I think it's absolutely in the national interest.
I think he's humiliating our country on the international stage.
And the sooner he goes, the better.
We're looking at live pictures of Downing Street.
There is word that Nazeem Zahawi may be coming out.
We just don't know whether it's front or back.
Flashbulbs going off.
There may be movement behind the curtains.
A cat may be twitching.
We don't know what's going on yet, but we're expecting the jungle drums are beating.
By the way, Larry has tweeted that he's turned down the job of Chancellor.
What I like was when Peter Bone left us, he went, I've got to go.
I've got to find out if I've still got a job.
Whether he'd resigned.
So we're going to keep an eye on Downing Street.
It's sort of ominously quiet, isn't it?
Look at it.
It looks like a crypt, which plays into this idea of Westminster having a stench of death tonight.
There's nothing more ruthless or savage than a Conservative Party in full throw when it tries to get rid of one of its leaders, and they normally succeed.
And I feel tonight the sheer overwhelming number of people in the Conservative Party, right from the top, the top cabinet ministers to the PPSs to Tory MPs, saying they don't support him anymore.
It is becoming, you would think, an overwhelming political snowball engulfing this building and the person inside it.
But Nadeem Zahawi's been in there for nearly two hours now.
What the hell are they talking about?
Is it that Nadeem Zahawi is demanding that he gets the job of Chancellor?
Does Liz Truss want that job?
Is she saying if you do that, I'm going to resign?
This is how these situations play out.
It's how they work.
We don't know yet, but things could happen very quickly and they could be quite explosive when they do.
So stay with us.
We're going to carry on.
We've got a two-hour special edition of the show tonight, Richard Sais.
This is kind of fascinating because we don't really know which way it's going to play out.
You could have an extraordinary situation, Piers, where the cabinet cowardly remain in place and actually there's a groundswell of resignations from underneath, from junior ministers, from PPSs, that they can't fill.
And that actually that finally does the whole cabinet in.
I mean, how extraordinary it would be, Esther, wouldn't it, if that is the case, where the underlings basically remove all the ballast that is supporting this government?
I know.
I mean, it would be incredible, but you'd think it would finally be the one thing that would make Boris get the message to leave.
I mean, I lose, and I don't have much respect, I must say, I lose more and more respect for this man with every second that passes, because I just cannot believe you can be this selfish.
I cannot believe that you can be this, you know, stubborn and pig-headed about something that's very straightforward.
You don't have support.
Almost half of your MPs try to get rid of you.
That would have been a significant signal to actually leave with some sort of grace and dignity.
And he still hasn't.
And for me, what worries me is are the people that still believe in Conservative principles, that still believe that this country is better generally under a Conservative government?
Well, I do think the country, I think the country is crying out for a return to some decency and integrity in public office.
I really do.
Now, one of the things I found extraordinary about the Pinchergate scandal was what on earth was a whip, Deputy Chief Whip, doing in the aftermath of Partygate that was so corrosive and damaging.
What was he doing?
Getting drunk in a pub and groping other blaming the alcohol.
Blaming it.
Blaming that level of degeneracy on alcohol.
I think you have to say that there has been a breakdown in behaviour in the Conservative Party.
And I think you have to say it starts from the top of the fish rots from the Boris Johnson has set the example of reckless behaviour, which he has got away with.
And I think the underlings and those people supporting him have thought they can join in this too.
Adam, we're hearing that Sam Cohen, a senior advisor to the Prime Minister and a former Private Secretary to the Queen, will be the new Chief of Staff.
Well, that's facing Steve Barclay.
That's the fourth Chief of Staff in recent days.
And of course, what it's doing is going back to having an outsider coming in as Chief of Staff, whereas Steve Barclay, the idea was that he had a grip on the parliamentary party as well, because he was an MP and cabinet minister.
And I think, you know, we've got this Cancini, the Lyndon Crosby protege who's been managing it.
And I think, you know, all of this looks like a prime minister and an executive that wants to behave independently, manipulating public opinion independently from its MPs.
And that, I think, is why you're seeing so many worms turn.
Well, Grant Shamps' PPS, who resigned, Nicola Richards, MP, interesting quote in her letter.
I cannot bring myself to serve as a PPS under the current circumstances where the focus is skewed by poor judgment that I don't wish to be associated with.
Well, she goes on and says you can't be trusted to tell the truth.
And that is not tenable for anyone in public life, let alone a Prime Minister.
Yeah, that's the key point.
I mean, it's catastrophic when anything that comes out of the Prime Minister's mouths, you're wondering, is he telling the truth?
Is it a half-truth?
Or is it a complete fib and a lie?
Or you don't even want to hear what comes out of his mouth because...
Okay, the Times, the Times breaking news.
The Times newspaper leader article tonight, their view on Boris Johnson's position.
He's lost the confidence of his party and the country.
Every day that he remains deepens the sense of chaos.
For the good of the country, he should go.
Times calling for Boris Johnson tonight to resign.
They go on to say what has brought Mr. Johnson to this position is the same character flaws that have dogged his entire career.
His persistent lying, a flagrant disregard for the codes and conventions that necessarily underpin public life.
So that's a significant moment, I think, Adam, in this debate.
When the Times calls for a Prime Minister to go, it's a big deal.
Well, it is the voice of the establishment.
Of course, it comes on the day when their former Permanent Secretary of MacDonald, another voice of the establishment in the Foreign Office, just basically stands up and says, Boris Johnson has been lying to you on this question of pitchers behavior.
David Frost, Mr. Brexit, has written a piece for the Telegraph tonight.
If Boris Johnson hangs on, he risks taking the party and the government down with him.
That's why it's time for him to go.
We're going to go to Kate McCann now for breaking news.
Fundamental Breakdown in Public Confidence 00:15:02
Kate, over to you.
Hi, Piers.
Well, we've been talking a lot about who the next Chancellor is going to be.
And I can confirm that Downing Street have just emailed us all to say the Queen has been pleased to approve the following appointments.
Nadeem Zahawi is going to be Chancellor of the Exchequer.
They confirm that Steve Barclay is going to be the Health Secretary.
And Michelle Donnellin, as we were saying before, is going to replace Nadeem Zahawi as the Secretary of State for Education.
That just breaking in the last few moments from Downing Street.
So confirmation then.
Nadeem Zahawi, and there had been some suggestion that he'd gone into Downing Street, he's been in there for a long time and even keeping a keen eye on that car outside the front gates of Downing Street, that he'd gone in there intentionally to play his hand and say, I will not have anything less than Chancellor, the most senior position in the cabinet.
Looks like he's got what he wanted.
Perhaps the Prime Minister made a calculation.
There was a suggestion that he wanted to move Liz Truss into that role, that because she hadn't resigned tonight, it was fairly safe to keep her where she is in the Foreign Office.
So that's a fairly big move there from the Prime Minister.
Another senior female appointment in the cabinet.
But of course, as we were saying before, it doesn't mean that all of those lower ranks, all of those junior ministers and those PPSs, they are still wobbling.
There are lots who are still considering their positions tonight.
Kate McCann with the scoop there.
Thank you very much indeed.
So that's confirmation.
Nadine Zahawi has been in there for nearly two hours now.
He's going to be moving from the education brief over to becoming our new Chancellor.
So dramatic stuff happening every minute tonight.
We're going to be joined now by the former Conservative MP, Louise Mensch.
Louise, I'm just reading this full Times leader article verdict on Boris Johnson.
I've read some excoriating things in my time, but this is absolutely laying into him.
It ends up by concluding there is still time, if it moves fast, for the Conservative Party under honest, respected, responsible leadership to recover its reputation and win the next general election.
Under Mr. Johnson, there is no chance.
Demanding that he go, they are a paper of the establishment.
Many Conservative MPs will read the Times.
That is what the Times is saying tonight.
What's your reaction to that?
Piers, I think that Boris Johnson is the woodlouse of politics.
Quite honestly, he is going to survive a nuclear holocaust.
He is going to be here after we are all dead and gone.
It's part of the old political saying: if you come for the king, best not miss.
They had two senior cabinet resignations, and that was not enough.
The majority of the cabinet decided to go with Boris.
And the Times, in fairness, I'm sure it's a very strong leader, but they can chunter as much as they want.
He won an election in the 1922 committee.
More Tory MPs voted for him than against him.
And so once again, he's going to dodge this bullet.
Michelle Donnellan, MP, is Minister of State for I think higher education, a further education, has just been made the new Education Secretary, which I would think is a fairly obvious move up for her, right?
Yeah, she was dealing with students' higher education before and has been fighting off these allegations that the government is against humanities subjects.
So I think that would be quite a popular promotion.
Okay, Louise, we've talked a lot about Boris Johnson in the light of party gate and everything else.
It seems to me there is a fundamental breakdown in trust in Boris Johnson.
People just don't believe him anymore.
And whilst they could laugh it off in the good times when it was prosperity, now that we're facing really tough times and the country's in financial crisis and there's another wave of the pandemic potentially coming, there's war in Ukraine with all the residual issues of that, like food distribution and so on.
I think that they've just stopped laughing with Boris.
They don't find his style any more engaging or charming.
They sort of find it offensive.
I think you have a strong point, Piers.
The whole sort of boom clown thing, have I got news for you, doesn't work anymore.
But to my mind, the key voice this evening was Ben Wallace, MP, the Defence Secretary, who is widely respected, especially for how he has handled the war in Ukraine.
And when he gave his vote of confidence to Boris Johnson, as far as I was concerned, it was all over.
I knew at that moment Boris was not going to go.
So there are people who, while you're right, yes, the easy popularity is not going to come for Boris anymore.
There are still people who think he's the right guy to lead the country through the difficult times and who prefer him to Kier Starmer, who is the leader of the opposition and the only other alternative.
Don't you care that he's such a serial liar?
Seriously.
Well, Piers, you know that you and I have disagreed before, let's say forthrightly, over whether or not Boris was actually lying over whether or not he was mistaken.
And it's not a character judgment.
I believe that Boris is highly ambitious.
I believe that he would not put his own future on the line for a simple thing like a lie and a cup of warm wine and a plastic glass.
That's just not Boris Johnson.
He's too ambitious for that.
Nobody's calling the guy a saint, but a lot of people think that he is competent and they would rather have him than the alternatives.
If you get rid of Boris, the question is, who's next?
Rishi Sunak with his wife that was... as far as many people are concerned, grifting her taxes whilst being a multi-millionaire?
I'll tell you something.
Sajid Javid is genuinely a loss for the government, but Rishi Sunak was a liability.
And there are a lot of Tories who are going to be very glad that he's gone out of the door tonight.
Okay.
Louise Mensch, as always, a forthright opinion remaining in Boris Johnson's camp.
It's a much smaller camp than the last time we talked, but good to talk to you.
Thank you very much.
Esther, you know, there are people that are going to feel that way about Boris.
There are people saying, well, it's not been proven that he lied repeatedly.
It has on this one.
Yeah.
It has on this one.
No, no, no.
But even so, there will be Boris supporters who still don't believe, even on this one he lies.
They just don't think he does lie.
They think he genuinely would have forgotten.
You know, it's Boris being a bit...
But this whole Shambles Act is his cover all the time, for what I think, a brazen liar.
This is political Stockholm syndrome.
They are refusing to come to grips with reality.
It's quite a Trumpian in a way with what goes on with Trump.
Well, that, I think, is one of the issues for the MPs, because as it were, people have been saying we want some leadership from the cabinet to move on this.
They've had that now, and it goes back now to the ordinary MPs.
And I think a lot of them are very afraid of the Trumpian lesson, as you say, and they want to go back.
It's a standard.
It's like a bunker mentality.
And the ordinary MPs are not in the bunker.
The cabinet is holed up in the bunker.
A few of them have escaped and the others are wondering what to do.
And I think it's an act of supreme cowardice to let this leader continue to humiliate our country in this year.
Politics used to be about something bigger than just political ambition and trying to forward your career.
Politics used to be about actually changing the country for the good.
And the fact that there are people that are defending the indefensible is what disgusts me.
The fact that Nadeem Zahawi can actually take this role as Chancellor in this doomed government disgusts me because you should be bigger than this.
You should look to try and better your country.
This is more than you.
This is more than just trying to get the next step.
I think that will turn out to be Nadeem's most significant strategic mistake.
I think it's a really interesting place.
Possibly within a matter of a couple of years.
Because he was definitely in the running to be leader.
But the fact he's aligned himself to Boris, who's so damaged and so discredited, on the night the Times is saying Boris has got to go.
Maybe the Sun will say the same.
We'll find out in a few minutes, I suspect.
It does seem a huge roll of a dice by Nadeem Zahawi.
Who knows what went on behind closed doors?
He might have gone in there with the intention of trying to persuade the Prime Minister to resign, but I think he's made a massive personal strategic mistake.
I should also say that he's become Chancellor now.
He's a rich man.
People look at his finances.
And certainly one of his former colleagues said to me, while not accusing him of doing anything illegal, he has used family trust quite a lot for his riches.
And, you know, that's not what ordinary people do.
So Nadeem Zahawi, as indeed Rishi Sunak was left himself open, there will be questions now asked.
His only chance is if he literally comes out the blocks in the next 48 hours and says he's going to do an emergency tax-cutting budget on a range of money.
Well, I think that would give Tory MPs the opportunity to get behind the new Chancellor, even if they had massive downside.
Downing Street is saying tonight, it is not true to say Liz Truss was in the running tonight for Chancellor.
It was always going to be Nadeem Zahawi.
That prompts the question.
It was always going to be Zahawi.
What were they talking about for nearly two hours?
Exactly.
It clearly was not that straightforward.
Otherwise, it wouldn't have been in there for two hours.
Should we also point out there are still some major vacancies tonight?
No Tory Party chairman, no Tory vice chair, no Minister for Universities and Skills, no Cabinet Office Minister, no Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and a whole range, four or five PPSs have all gone.
He could go to the job centre and start recruiting there.
I think that might be his best bet because it doesn't look like anyone in the Tory party wants to go near Boris.
This is the point.
If he can't fill those positions with credible people from underneath and you get this groundswell, then it could be second time of arsenal.
That looks like what's going to happen though.
So apparently, we may be getting a, like you suggested, a tax-cutting budget coming very rapidly and that this may be the last throw of the dice to try and save Boris Johnson's.
I think that's the only thing I can think of.
That might be the reference in Rishi Sunak's letter to the policy disagreement that they had apparently over the economy and Rishi Sunak basically saying, I wanted to tell the people that we're in more difficult times than Boris Johnson wants to tell people.
Well, fascinating, but I think that's the last chance they've got, but it would have to be within 48 hours.
I don't think they have a chance.
I don't think they have a chance.
It'll be fascinating.
I mean, there are other issues, aren't they, involving Boris Johnson's weakness right now?
Nicholas Sturgeon, First Minister of Scotland, feels like the end may be nigh for Johnson, not a moment too soon.
Notable, though, that the resigning ministers were only prepared to go when they were lied to.
They defended him lying to the public.
The whole rotten lot need to go, and Scotland needs the permanent alternative of independence.
Shameless, ruthless, opportunistic, but of course, all this chaos playing into her hands, Esther.
I mean, you know, I wrote a piece about her opportunistic call for a second referendum, which incredibly was supposed to be the referendum of a generation.
I didn't realise a generation lasted eight years.
But obviously, she must be enjoying this because this gives her some sort of a lot of people.
Of course, it helps her.
We've got a snap poll here, youGov.
Most Tory voters and two-thirds of Britons say Boris Johnson should resign as Prime Minister.
69% of all Britons say Boris Johnson should go.
Of 2019 Conservative voters, 54% say he should resign.
Only 33% say that he should stay.
First time that more Tory voters want the PM to go than stay.
So very bad news again for Boris Johnson from that snap poll on UGov.
It's like sort of, you know, as I said, the ships hold below the waterline.
It's like death by a thousand cuts.
But he won't go voluntarily.
He will have to be dragged out of kicking and screaming.
Kicking and screaming.
I think it's really interesting if it's actually the rest of the Conservative MPs, not his cabinet.
Bad news from you gov. And of course, Nadeem Zahawi was a founder of UGov.
Ironically.
But you're right, Adam.
He's going to get a lot of scrutiny now about his own finances, and he is a rich guy.
And as we've seen with Rishi Sunak, that can unearth some unfortunate things because rich people tend to be quite tricksy about how they protect their cash.
I'm not saying he has been, I'm just saying they tend to be.
I think he might have just taken this role to just read the speech tomorrow and just leave.
I cannot believe Nadeem is that short-sighted.
I think he's just trying to plug in.
Well, he's a smart guy, Nadeem Zahawi.
So he's making a political calculation that Boris Johnson can survive.
Maybe they were thrashing out this deal for an emergency budget with big tax cuts, which can try and change momentum back to Boris Johnson.
There is a difference in as much as Nadeem Zahawi has been one of those ministers who's been out defending Boris Johnson in a way that Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid haven't.
And it may be that he just felt his own integrity meant that he had to stick with the shit.
Right.
Nigel Farage, the current reputation of British politics is lower than it's ever been in modern times.
I think that's right.
And it's desperately sad.
And when you've got so many of the electorate losing trust, saying I'm never going to bother voting again, a plague on everybody's houses, that's really bad for the country.
MPs' confidence loses trust.
Christopher Hope of the Telegraph, MP who's loyal to the Prime Minister, delighted by the appointment of Zahawi as Chancellor, saying he can actually get bleep done.
So they see him as someone that can get stuff done.
He hasn't even gotten Brexit done, really.
I mean, this is...
He's got it.
Look.
The platform of opportunity of Brexit is there, but he hasn't taken advantage.
It's now up to Nadeem Zahawi, possibly, as I've just said, to use an emergency budget actually to say, right, we need to go for tax cuts on things like fuel duty, on things like VAT on energy, get rid of the green levies.
Which is crazy because they tend to be stronger on greenhouse gases.
I hate being led by, in the nicest possible way, our European partners in the EU.
The idea that they show leadership, cutting fuel duties.
Exactly.
And we don't, I think, is just embarrassing.
It's embarrassing.
It's humiliating.
Well, it's a dramatic night for British politics.
I mean, we have the new Chancellor here, Nadeem Zahawi.
That's, I think, the new Chancellor, Nadeem Zahawi.
We think that's him.
A lot of flashbulbs going.
Can we see Nadeem Zahawi?
Turn left, cameras.
See if we can get him.
Where is...
He's in the car.
Nadeem Zahawi, we did see a shadowy figure lurking out of the number 10 door and into his car and gone.
That is the new Chancellor of the Exchequer.
After the Prime Minister, the most powerful job in British politics has gone to the Education Secretary, Nadeem Zahawi, who's been a Boris supporter.
And the word on the Westminster Street is that they were in there for two hours thrashing out potentially a deal where Nadeem will very quickly, as a new Chancellor, issue an emergency budget full of tax cuts to try and change the mood and momentum about this government back into Boris Johnson's favour.
Massive roll of a dice for Boris Johnson.
Massive roll of a dice for Nadeem Zahawi, who many tip to be potentially the next leader.
Has he put it all on red and is it all going to come up black?
Or has he put it all on black and it might come up red?
Has he put it all on red and it comes up red?
New Chancellor Issues Emergency Budget 00:03:25
We don't know.
It's casino time in Westminster, but a fascinating time.
Let's have a little wrap-up.
Esther, take me forward six months.
Where are we going to be with all this?
Well, hopefully Boris will be nowhere in sight.
Holiday in Kabul with his Prime Minister is...
Well, hopefully, Penny Mordaunt.
But I will settle for Rob.
You would?
I would.
Really?
I would settle.
Really?
I would settle.
That would be one of the worst settles I could imagine.
I'm a very accommodating person.
I just want to see Boris gone.
I just want to see Boris gone at the moment.
He's gone.
I think he's gone within a matter of days or weeks.
I don't think he clings on, though he tries desperately.
And I think that's the right thing for the country.
Adam, you've been around the block longer than either of us would like to admit, me as well.
It's been a lot of dramatic nights in British politics.
This is right up there, isn't it?
This is very dramatic.
We don't often see cabinet ministers fighting.
We saw it in the Thatcher years, but we don't often see cabinet ministers finding the courage to resign to try and force out a prime minister.
I would have thought Boris Johnson is politically a dead man walking now.
But fascinating too that this is Michelle Donnellin, the new education secretary.
He's walking off.
He's going to try and fight it.
And therefore, what we're going to have is a party and a government in disarray in the coming weeks, which I can't believe is in the national industry.
At a time of national crisis.
Right, and that's the key thing I keep coming back to.
This couldn't be a more difficult time for any government.
You've got an ongoing pandemic.
You've got war in Europe.
You've got the subsidiary issues from that war of maybe a food crisis enveloping the world.
You know, you've got a financial crisis here where people are literally starving and can't get money.
Food banks increasing every day.
And now we've got this.
And important to remember, this is just about the personal faults of the character of the Prime Minister.
And that is shocking that the whole country is being plunged into this.
But it highlights the importance of high-quality leadership and the devastating consequences of a failure of leadership.
Yeah, I do think that.
I think in the end, what people are really craving, Esther, is just some old-fashioned integrity in their leader.
And boring people.
You'd rather be boring.
You can be integrity and be interesting.
But just somebody that you actually, when they speak, you trust what they say.
I would say one thing.
I would say on balance, kudos to the Conservative Party compared to the Republican Party in the United States.
Yes, absolutely.
For actually being prepared to confront these issues of the character of their leader.
Yeah.
Bits of the Conservatives Party.
Well, yeah.
The Conservative Party that hasn't been catastrophic.
There's very little kudos to what I still think is a very cowardly cabinet that is trying to deal with our agreement.
And I think if they end up being essentially usurped by the people underneath them, I mean, that's like a sort of a revolt from underneath.
And if one of them, you know, Rishi or Sajajavi, wakes up tomorrow and goes into the Commons and does a kind of Jeffrey Howe takedown speech, could that trigger more developments?
Or is this?
I think it could do.
I think it's possible.
I don't think it's in their character, but they could actually challenge their colleagues, as Richard says, to revolt over this matter.
Or they could actually reveal, as Jeffrey Howe did, you know, things that we don't know about Boris Johnson's behaviour.
Yeah.
Thank you, Richard, Esther, Adam.
Dominoes Fall as Colleagues Revolt 00:00:26
Brilliant panel.
Great to have you all here tonight.
A dramatic night for British politics.
We have lost a Chancellor and a Health Secretary.
We've gained a new Chancellor and a new Health Secretary.
We've lost a load of principal private secretaries.
It's been all happening tonight.
The dominoes have been falling.
But tonight, Boris Johnson remains in number 10 Downing Street like a large giant clam sticking like a barnacle to the ocean bed.
That's all from us tonight.
The talk is next.
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