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June 21, 2022 - Uncensored - Piers Morgan
45:38
20220621_piers-morgan-uncensored-matt-fitzpatrick-caitlyn-j
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Militant Unions Strike Rail 00:02:49
I'm Piers Morgan on Censored coming up on tonight's program, Greeting Britain.
Millions facing rail rage as militant unions strike the wrong chord.
No conversion, rugby league follows the swimming trans ban.
Should athletics be next?
Caitlin Jenner will be with me live.
And victim or villain, we'll debate that extraordinary interview with Jasmine Hartin from last night and the mysterious fatal shooting of a police chief and politics.
And he's the hottest property in world sport right now.
Days after his thrilling U.S. Open victory, golf sensation Matt Fitzpatrick will be with you.
Well, good evening.
Britain tonight is a country paralyzed by militant unions.
The biggest rail strikes in 30 years are, according to the union bosses who've demanded them, all about workers' rights.
But what about the rights of the millions of people who today had to battle misery and mayhem as to get to their work, to jobs, schools, maybe exams, hospitals, maybe even their holidays?
Just as we're emerging from two years of COVID pandemic lockdown hell, look what they've done.
They've dragged us back to where we started.
This is King's Cross station today.
Should be packed.
Look at it.
This is Waterloo Station.
It's the same story of cancelled plans up and down the country.
Here's Birmingham New Street.
This is Glasgow Station.
Everywhere, empty, as if we're locked down again.
Those who did try to get to work met scenes like this.
This guy was so angry, couldn't board a packed bus.
He sat in front of it, shouting at my driver, desperate to get to work.
And at the heart of it all is this guy, the RMT union boss, Mick Lynch, a man whose own Facebook profile picture has himself modelled on the hood, that evil mastermind bent on world destruction who terrorized the Thunderbirds.
How act.
But last week I challenged Mr. Lynch on the strike action.
Well, we were on the front line.
Our members worked all the way through the pandemic.
They were driving trains, mate.
If we were going to be dishing out public money when there's very little public money to dish out, surely you would accept that health workers, for example, should be first in the line.
They were in the real front line.
Our members worked through the COVID.
They were on the front line and railway workers died and transport workers died as a result of being at work during that period.
No, we're not asking for compensation for that.
All we're asking for is a pay increase that reflects what we've done.
Well, we'll debate these strikes in a moment.
Protecting Women's Sports 00:06:06
But first, rugby league today became the latest sport to ban transgender athletes from competing against women.
Swimming's governing body voted on Sunday to bar trans women and World Athletics has said that it could be next.
So with the tide finally turning back to what I would call common sense, I'm joined now by Fox News contributor and Olympians, Caitlin.
Caitlin, great to talk to you.
Hello, Pierce.
It's been so long we haven't had a chance to talk.
But anyway, it's always good to talk to you, Pierce.
Well, it's great to talk to you.
What do you need to know?
Here's what I need to know.
I sort of feel that you and I have been two people, part of a lonely group who for quite some time have been begging the sports authorities to, well, for want of a better phrase, grow a pair and actually do something about this iniquity which has been created with trans athletes competing against women born to female biological bodies.
Finally, that seems to be happening.
What's your reaction?
Yeah, honestly, I think it's very good.
To be honest with you, Pierce, I have been on this issue from the beginning.
I've been very consistent.
I have said from day one, I don't want biological boys to be competing against women, especially in school.
And honestly, it's just not fair, and we need to protect women's sports.
And I've stuck with that all the way through.
But I think what that did is it gave the International Living Committee, who basically last November gave the authority to the different sports organizations throughout the world to come up with their own reforms.
And NEMA, which controls world swimming, they were the first ones to do it.
And I think there's going to be a lot to follow.
But basically saying that if you have gone through male puberty, because they had a lot of scientists talk about male puberty to the board before they voted, that it is, no matter what your hormone levels are down the line, it makes a big, it's a big advantage to any trans woman who has been through male puberty.
It's a tremendous advantage.
So because of that, they voted 71.5% of the board voted to change the rules.
So now, if you have gone basically through male puberty, they are saying before the age of 12, you can't compete in swimming with women.
And honestly, I think that's the right decision.
We need to protect women's sports.
And I think this will have a big impact on it.
Not only just on this.
Not only just on this.
Yeah, go on.
But your guy, Sebastian Koe, I read an article today.
He's with Track and Field with the Olympic Committee.
They're looking into the exact same set of rules.
We actually have the iceberg.
We have got a clip of Lord Coe actually talking about this.
Let's play the clip.
Maintaining the primacy and the integrity of female competition is absolutely vital.
And if it's a judgment between inclusion and fairness, we will always fall down on the side of fans.
What's fascinating about this is how divisive it remains as an issue.
So Megan Rapino, probably the most famous female football soccer star in America, and probably the world actually, multiple world champion.
She came out and said this, show me the evidence that trans women are taking everyone's scholarships, are dominating in every sport, winning every title.
I'm sorry, it's just not happening.
We need to start from inclusion, period.
As things arise, I've confidence we can figure it out, but we can't start at the opposite.
It's cruel and frankly, it's just disgusting.
She says, we're putting everything through, God forbid, a trans person be successful in sports.
Get a grip on reality and take a step back.
What I don't understand about it, if I was interviewing Megan Rapino, I'd be saying, look, I remember when the women's American soccer team, the best in the world by miles, best it's ever been, led by Megan Rapino, played a bunch of 15-year-old boys at soccer and they got beaten.
They got beaten 5-2, I think.
Which shows you what happens if you don't separate the sexes when it comes to any physical sport.
You know what?
Honestly, I think this is a good decision.
You know, Leah Thomas, from the beginning, I've never had a problem with her.
She has played by the rules.
It was the rules that were wrong, the NCA rules that let her compete.
And I have been, actually at this point, now to see what happens, I'm actually happy she did this, why she brought this issue forward.
And World Soccer or World Swimming has made a decision, and I think it's the right decision.
So I'm thankful for Leah Thomas.
She changed everything.
And this is a good thing for women's sports.
But what about Megan Rapino's comments?
What about what?
What about Megan Rapino's view, which is you should include all trans athletes in women's sport, that it's actually they're not dominating, so why are we all making such a fuss about it?
Well, first of all, they talk about having this different division for trans athletes.
Pierce, there's not enough trans athletes in the world to have a different, to have another competition.
Right now, I only know of one trans swimmer, and that's Leah Thomas.
And they just, there's not enough people out there.
I think they did, it was kind of like a whitewash of, oh, you know, we're banning the Leah Thomases of the world, the trans athletes who have been through male puberty, but we're going to have this little bone out there.
Oh, we're going to create a different division.
Honestly, Pierce, there's not enough trans people in the world to have transformation.
In a way, Caitlin, in a way, that's kind of what Megan Rapino is saying, that there aren't many trans athletes who can compete at the moment at an elite level.
So therefore, we should just, we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be banning them.
Banning Trans Athletes 00:02:55
What do you say to her specific point?
No, it's not that we shouldn't be banning it.
We need to, we need to, it's not about banning trans athletes.
It's about protecting women sports.
Let's make it keep that playing field fair and balanced for women.
Look at all the things that women have been through over the last few years.
Back in the 80s, Title IX here in the United States.
Huge, huge opportunity for equality in sports for women.
And they got it.
And now they can get scholarships.
They can get this.
Why would we set it back?
Let's just keep it clean.
There's other things that trans women or trans men, they can compete in intramural sports, they can compete in co-ed sports on a different level.
They don't have to be at the high levels.
So let's keep it fair.
Let's protect women's sports.
Well, a separate issue, Caitlin.
I noticed yesterday on your Instagram, you shared a story of Kim Kardashian and Kylie Jenner both sent you flowers on Father's Day with a note.
And I think Kim actually posted something praising you as a stepdad.
I guess for you, is it confusing?
Does it feel perfectly normal they call you still a stepdad, that you're still their father?
How do you feel about it?
My kids are the absolute best.
I'm the luckiest parent in the world to have children like this.
Especially Kendall and Kylie.
You know, when the first, when I went through this years ago, seven years ago, they said, well, you know, dad, what do we call you?
And I thought for a second, I said, dad, I'm your father.
I've always been your father.
I will always be your father.
I will die your father.
So I have no problem with you whatsoever calling me dad, okay?
And that's just the way it is.
And they have been very good at that.
But what they're even better at is even when they talk about their dad, they always go, their dad, she did this.
They changed pronouns right in the middle.
And every time I hear it, my dad, she, I'm like blown away how smart my kids are and how respectful they are of my wishes, because I'm their father.
I'm certainly not their mother.
I wouldn't, it's disrespectful to their mother, which I'm not that type of person.
But I've always been their dad, and I'll be their dad until the day they die.
So call me dad.
But they do change pronouns.
My dad, she does this.
My dad, she does that.
Which actually, in a way, is the kind of accommodation I think makes a lot of sense and takes a lot of the heat out of this debate.
People can just be a little bit giving on both sides, right?
Yes, first of all, Pierce, you know me.
I'm a common sense person.
I'm not into all this, oh my gosh, pronouns and this.
My mother calls me by the wrong.
She's 96 years old.
She'll every once in a while slip when she's in the middle of an argument.
Calling Me Dad Again 00:05:31
You know, she's, Bruce, you got to do this.
I don't even say anything.
I don't care.
The bottom line is, I'm happy.
I wake up in the morning every morning and I just be myself all day long.
That is the best feeling in the world.
I don't have to lie to anybody.
I don't have to misrepresent myself to anybody.
I just have to be me.
And because of that, it's allowed me to go out and do other things in business.
Like actually, I'll be in the UK here.
Not this weekend, next weekend as a British Grand Prix.
I have two cars in the W Series.
One is a Brit, Jamie Chadwick, who's won the first three races.
She's on Jenner Racing.
And I have a young girl named Chloe Chambers, who's only 17 years old.
Great young driver coming up.
And I'll be out at Silverstone at the British Grand Prix.
Please come in here.
Here it are and my girls.
Well, if you're coming into my country, Caitlin, I'd like to invite you to come and see me in the studio here.
We'll have a cup of tea together and maybe do an interview about something nothing to do with trans, just other stuff.
Yeah.
What about that?
Yeah, no, I do do so many other things.
We've got to get off the trans thing.
Right.
I have been an avid race car driver for 30 years.
I did it professionally.
I have enjoyed it and was given the opportunity to own two cars in the W series.
Caitlin, I've got to wrap it up.
But when you're here, come and see me.
Let's have a cup of tea.
Let's talk about it.
Let's talk about Boris Johnson, Donald Trump, whatever you like.
I'll see what we can do and looking forward to seeing you.
Brilliant.
I forward to welcoming you to this fine country.
Caitlin Jenner, always a pleasure to talk to you.
You speak such common sense.
You speak such common sense.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Have you ever played that game where you ask who would win a fight?
You know, an elephant versus a tiger, a hippo versus a snake.
Well, what about a crocodile versus an elderly human being armed with a frying pan?
This two and a half meter monster met its match in Kai Hanson when it intruded on his pub, the Goat Island Lodge in the Northern Territory in Australia.
Kai actually lost his dog, Dumb Blonde, that was the dog's name, to a crocodile attack in 2018.
But he survived this attack.
So no one got hurt and the croc got a good lesson.
So there you are.
Keep a frying pan handy.
You never know when the croc may attack.
On Senator Next, Britain is paralyzed by the biggest rail strike in 30 years.
Are unions holding this country to ransom?
Spoiler alert, I think they are.
Tonight's press pack, Grace Blakely and Harry Cole.
We'll debate that in a few minutes' time.
Welcome, but I'm joined by the Pierce Pack, socialist author Grace Blakely and poor old Harry Cole from The Sun, who couldn't get here because, yes, the rail strikes.
We'll come to that in a minute, Harry.
I want to ask you, Grace, first of all, about the Caitlin Jenner interview and this wider issue of trans athletes in sport, because it is a hot potato.
Megan Rapino, very strong about this.
They should all be allowed to compete.
What's your view?
I think that athletes have physiological differences among themselves.
You know, you look at the top cyclists, the top runners, they've got particular physiologies that aren't the same as the rest of the population.
So I think it's weird that we should draw this line that says trans women, especially because there's so few of them shouldn't be allowed to compete.
What about when you have a swimmer like Leah Thomas, who goes from being a very mediocre male swimmer, transitions and becomes a world-beating woman swimmer?
Well, I mean, look, you have to look at it on a case-by-case basis.
If the other women in the sport are saying, look, I don't think this is fair or this has kind of undermined my ability to get this world record I was looking for, then, you know, look at it sensibly.
But I think in general, just saying trans women can't compete seems a bit unfortunate.
Well, taking your logic, why don't we just remove all gender-related differences in sport?
Let's have everyone compete in the same.
I'm not a massive sports fan, Pierce.
I would love to see what I remember at my school, there was one girl who really wanted to play cricket on the boys' team and for ages she wasn't allowed.
And then eventually they let her play and she was really good.
And if you just literally removed gender from it, you had Ben Stokes playing against the England women's cricketers, how do you think that would go?
I have no idea, but I'm sure that they would agree well.
It would obviously be incredibly unfair.
Would you be happy if there are so many?
You say Bolt became women and then competed against athletes that it just kind of undermines the argument when you're saying we should change that.
But actually, we're now seeing it happening in cycling, we're seeing it happening in weightlifting, we're seeing it happening in swimming, seeing it happening in rugby.
There was a cricketer down in Kent, who was the women's cricketer of the year.
Who average, I think, 17 of the people.
Where this shows up is when you have, you know, who is the South African woman who had different levels of hormones and then was decided.
But I mean, this is, you know, this is like you're deciding it based on someone's physiology.
My point is, Megan Rapino, very keen, they should all be included, but they're therefore saying that actual sexual advantage doesn't exist in physiology.
There are all sorts of advantages that exist.
Cyclists have bigger lungs and, you know, like the top runners, for example, all have.
Again, I can't match the question you don't want to answer pretending you know nothing about sports.
But if what you're saying is correct, why have any gender-specific sport?
Because you're doing a reductio ad absurdum.
You're taking a small case.
What, sorry?
It's Latin.
Did you not talk Latin at this time tonight?
You're taking one case and then trying to generalize it.
No, I'm saying if you don't think physiology...
If you don't think male biological.
Inflation And Pay Rises 00:07:11
I haven't said that at all.
I've said that there are all sorts of physiological differences that professional athletes have.
And yes, you know, there are obviously differences between men and women.
But then going out to saying, right, because of that, this tiny number of trans athletes who want to compete in lots of different sports where these differences mean very different things should never be able to do that is a stretch.
Actually, I don't think it is.
I think it's just common sense.
Well, we disagree.
I'm aware of that.
Let's turn to strikes.
Harry, sorry you couldn't make it here, but who are we blaming?
Mick Lynch?
The hood, as I call him?
There is a massive amount of blame that does need to go on Mick Lynch for this.
At the moment, he's determined to make this about pay.
It's actually not about pay.
It's actually about reform as well.
So we can chew over that in a moment.
But there is also a massive element of blame that needs to go on this government and this government in particular.
Tory Manifesto in 2009 promised and it said and vowed to pass a new law that would ban strike action, a complete blanket strike action across the transport network and critical other sort of infrastructure sectors.
That means that actually, even if there was a strike, much like the laws that stopped the police from striking, if there was a strike, there'd still be a minimum service.
And that was promised in 2019.
It was in the Queen's speech, I think, in 2020.
And like so many things this government has promised, it's gone down the swanny.
This wouldn't have been the chaos of today if the government had kept their promise.
That's not to say I think the unions are being slightly absurd.
Well, I don't think that's the thing.
I can't think of them as being absurd.
I think it's not a big barrel.
Yeah, I think, look, Grace, I think their timing is horrific.
We're just coming out of a pandemic.
Now we've got back to sort of apocalyptic lockdown scenes with empty train stations just at the moment when all small businesses, the little shops selling the papers, selling the cafes, the small restaurants relying on commuters, suddenly they're all back on the back foot, losing money again.
Isn't a coincidence, Pierce.
We're currently living through the deepest cost of living crisis.
Well, exactly.
Everybody is.
And who is getting through that the best?
It's people who are in unions.
I find the idea that Harry was just laying out that this government would ban strike action, a basic democratic right.
Well, they do it.
Talk about, you know, banana strike action.
They're more on free speech.
So that's people exercising their basic action.
My issue, well, I'll come to Harry in a moment.
My issue is not with people taking strike action where it's legitimate.
And I support trades unions supporting their workers.
My issue right now is we are, we know, in economic meltdown.
We're heading towards a potential recession.
If we have a load of strikes this summer, we will tip into recession.
None of this helps anybody.
If workers don't stand up for themselves, then they will end up in poverty and potentially on the street.
There are cleaners who are literally, there was an article today where someone interviewed cleaners on the railways who were saying, I'm on the verge of homelessness.
This is often for a lot of workers, it's out of desperation.
It's out of a need to not have a payload.
But you give them 11%.
Because, of course, I would give them a pay in line with inflation.
You'd have to look at inflation.
So then you would give them year on year, year on year, you have to look at inflation.
So by that yardstick, you would then give every public sector worker 11%.
I would give every worker in the economy a pay in line with inflation.
It's impossible.
You'd bankrupt the economy.
If you looked at the inflation rate, we can't afford it.
Of course, you wouldn't bankrupt the bank.
11% pay rise for the entire system.
Do you realise that when prices are rising across the economy, all you're doing is matching the price levels across the whole economy?
Harry Cole.
So it just doesn't make a difference.
Harry Cole.
I'm not the world's greatest economist, nor am I completely stupid.
If you give every public sector worker an 11% pay rise, this country goes bust, doesn't it?
Well, look what happened in the 1970s.
You get into an inflation and price.
An inflation, inflation and price spiral.
This is the way that you make a temporary inflation crisis that's happening across the West a permanent fixture in the economy.
Obviously, you can't do that.
That said, it's very hard to tell one sector in particular that they don't deserve a pay rise and some do.
What I find fundamentally unfair about today's strike action is you've got one sector of workers basically dictating that other workers are not separate.
Can't Grace, you had your unions.
Education workers are now saying we're going to be involved in the population.
Because they all hear you and they go, great, Grace is right.
We all get 11%.
Because they're facing pay cuts.
Can I put Carolina?
Where are you going to find them?
And they're facing pay cuts.
Where are you going to find the money to give them 11%?
The whole economy are going up by 11% and then your tax rates are going up by the same amount because obviously you've got workers rising at 11%.
If you see profits increasing by that amount and you don't then see wages increasing by that amount, where's the money going?
It's going to big businesses and conservation.
Profits are driving inflation more than wages.
If you give 11% pay rises to the whole public sector, this country's done in.
That's not how it works, because tax rates will increase when the price level increases.
That's not what happens.
It is.
It's not.
If all prices go up by 11%, then your VAT rates go up by 11% or income tax rates go up.
Harry, last word to you.
Where does this end?
Where does this end, I suspect, is it's a government fold on this because the rail unions have given the 6% they want.
Then I suspect other sectors will look and go, well, this is successful and follow it.
We ended with a crippling summer of walkouts.
And that's what we need to do.
So you want school children.
Grace, you want school children.
Who haven't been at school?
Over a decade of exactly.
You want school children back at home performance of Benny's European Union.
Is that what you want?
Is that what you actually want in the 10 years after the financial crisis?
To make a political point, you want kids who have been suffering through this pandemic without being able to go to the bank.
You want the kids of workers in this country to be able to afford it.
Workers in this country can't be a good person.
That is what I want, Grace.
Your mates at the RPCs are not available.
I still want to go to work.
What I would like are the millions of people who want to go to work, who've been stuck at home for two years and the pandemic, who desperately want to go to work, have fuel our economy.
I want them to be able to get to work.
More than 50% of people in this country, based on a poll today, think that this strike action was making a lot of money.
As you know, split right down the middle.
It's not actually.
There was a new poll out of the public.
Polly.
All right, I've got to leave you there.
I think here it's a 33% against the 66%.
By the way, older people are much less likely, who, by the way, aren't working, are less likely to support the strike.
They get solidly support the strike.
Because they're actually doing the work.
Because they actually believe we can give everyone 11% pay rise.
And by the way, there's a panel of the money.
They're the ones that are suffering through the cost of living crisis.
Older people, remember what your lot did to the right.
Harry, got to leave it there.
Thank you for not coming in.
Probably would have been too incendiary here.
Grace, thank you.
We'll come to the Tooth Fairy tomorrow for other things that Grace can't deliver.
But anyway, nice to see you.
It would be unfair to end on that, Piers.
But we'll have to go to the bottom of the camera.
And you are basically Mother Christmas.
Should we call you that?
That is not.
Everyone gets 11% pay rise.
If prices go up by 11%, then people should get a pay rise in the other side.
Why is that getting a pay cut?
This debate will go on.
Come back soon.
Okay.
It's always good to debate with you.
Thank you.
Enjoying The Winning Moment 00:11:50
Uncensored next, US Open champion Matt Fitzpatrick on the Hope shop that led to a stunning US Open victory.
And why he was inspired by his ex-girlfriend and her Ukrainian fan.
That's coming up late.
Welcome back to Bizwork and Uncensored Single next to golfing superstar who's just become the third Englishman in 52 years to win the US Open.
Matt Fitzpatrick followed in the footsteps of Tony Jackman in 1917, Justin Rose in 2013 to win the major title.
So where did he get his inspiration for such greatness?
I'll ask him in a moment.
But first, let's take a look at that winning moment.
So so close.
And it's a dream come true for magnificent Matthew.
And the US Open title fits perfectly.
Oh, I'm so proud of you.
I'm delighted to say I'm joined now from America by Matt Fitzpatrick, US Open Champion, no less.
How are you?
I'm good, Piers.
How are you?
Have you been sleeping with that trophy?
Be honest.
It's been next to me every night so far.
So, yeah, pretty much.
Only you could win your first major by not actually doing anything, watching somebody else miss a putt.
I knew you have an answer for everything, don't you?
You know what?
It was absolutely incredible to watch it.
And because I know you quite well, I know how much it means to you.
That moment when you realized you were the champion, you'd won your first major, you were the US Open champion.
And then you turn and you turn to your caddy, who normally in that moment would be as jubilant as you.
And he's broken down in tears, Billy Foster, because he's waited 40 years to carry a bag for a major champion.
Yeah, it was incredibly surreal.
You know, I know what it means to Billy.
And as you say, you know what it means to me.
And for me to win a major, it's 10 million times better than I ever thought it would feel.
I've got to admit, it's truly been incredible.
And that moment when the put missed and I knew that I was the winner, then it was truly incredible.
You're an incredibly fastidious golfer in the sense that you've made a note of every shot you've ever played as a professional and you've kept all these notebooks.
Why do you do that?
And do you think that's been one of the reasons why you've ended up a major champion?
Yeah, I think for me, I do it just to figure out where I can improve all the time, where my strengths are, where my weaknesses are.
And I definitely think it's been a big part in helping me succeed in my career so far, just because I've got the information on where I need to get better all the time.
And because of that, I'm using my time efficiently rather than kind of wasting it on something that might be a strength already.
So I feel like that's been a big part of my career.
And, you know, I'm certainly going to continue doing it.
And I think it's helped massively.
You've gone from Matt Fitzpatrick, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, kind of nearly man, not quite winning a major, you know, one of the pros, not a household name.
And then now, suddenly, within 48 hours, you're on the front page of newspapers all over the world.
You're on TV shows all over the world.
Your life has just changed irrevocably.
Are you enjoying it?
Are you slightly apprehensive about what may now happen?
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely apprehensive.
You know, you've seen it with other guys that have had success and then maybe don't play so well.
And some guys that have success and continue on to go and do more.
There's always a little bit of that at first.
And it might take some time to sort of get used to everything that's going on.
But, you know, I'm excited.
It's what I've worked so hard for to achieve this.
So, you know, I've got to understand everything else that comes with it and just try and take it in my stride as best as possible and enjoy it at the same time.
It's like I say, it's what I've worked for.
So, you know, you've got to enjoy it once you've achieved what you want.
Absolutely.
I read a fascinating piece in the papers today that you were inspired in a way by a conversation you had with your ex-girlfriend, Denise, whose family are from Ukraine.
And you had this when the Ukraine war started.
And you spoke to on the phone and she told you some stuff about her family and what they were going through in the Ukraine that gave you a new perspective.
Yeah, I mean, you know, that was obviously back in March time.
And I think obviously with everything that's going on in Ukraine right now and particularly obviously being close to that and having that experience of someone in or knowing someone that is going through that, it was obviously tough to see and tough to understand from my side.
But like you say, it made me realize that, you know, put things into perspective, at the end of the day, I'm only playing golf and there's much worse things going on.
And it definitely helped my mental game towards my golf and whilst I was playing tournaments.
There was a story breaking just before I came out to do this chat with you that Brooks Kepka is likely to be the next recruit for this Live tour, the Saudi-sponsored sort of renegade tour.
Your brother was quite interesting about this.
He said that you persuaded, he's also a top golfer.
You persuaded him not to join that tour as you've decided not to join it.
What do you feel about where this debate is now going, given that players of the caliber of Deschambeau and Brooks Kepka and other top, top players are now doing this and of course running the risk of being banned from the main PGA tour?
Yeah, listen, you know, it's their choice, it's their careers and they've got to do what's right for them.
For me personally, you know, I grew up watching the Open, the US Open, the Masters, the RBC Heritage on the PGA Tour, Wentworth, the BMW PGA at Wentworth on the DP World Tour.
Those are events that mean something to me.
Growing up as a kid watching those, those are what I wanted to play in, what I wanted to try and win.
And because of that, that's why I'm committed to the DP World Tour and the PJ Tour, because those are the ones that I grew up watching.
And I think for me, like I say, it's everyone else's decision that they can do what they feel is right for them.
And I absolutely have no issues with that, whatever they want to do.
But for me personally, I think the right way to go is for me to stick where I am and play the PJ Tour and the DP World Tour.
But I think it's an interesting time for golf, and it's certainly going to be interesting to see how it all works out.
Is there going to have to be a deal?
Do you think given the sheer number of top players that are beginning to migrate over there?
They're going to have to eventually say, look, players really, which is what I believe, by the way, should be allowed to play where they want to play.
Yeah, I mean, listen, I do agree with you there.
I do believe that players should be able to play where they want to play.
A lot of the times people say that we are independent contractors, which I guess we are.
So, yeah, I do, you know, like I say, I respect wherever people want to go, wherever they want to play.
I've got no issues with that.
They've got to do what's best for them.
Whether there'll be a deal, I couldn't possibly answer that.
There might be, there might not be.
It's obviously all up in the air.
You know, the rumours of players leaving every day.
And, you know, for me, that's sitting on the outside of it, I'm finding it pretty interesting to see whose name's going to pop up next, really.
So I guess we'll just have to see what happens.
I've got some clips to play you, each with their own little story.
You may remember that probably the most inspiring golf rounds of your career have probably been with me.
One in the British Masters Pro-Am, where you witnessed me actually getting a net hole in one.
And we have a video to prove that.
Here's the video.
So, Matt Fitzpatrick, obviously fresh off the Ryder Cup.
Could you tell me how I just performed on that last hole, please?
Well, obviously, we didn't take your shit tea shot because it was finished short of the water.
How many did I score?
But you managed to spawnily hole a put for a two-net hole in one.
So well done.
Thank you very much, Matt Fitzpatrick.
So I felt that playing with you, I just felt like I gave you that extra level of confidence and bravado that you needed to make that next leap up to major champion.
You know, I've got credit where credit's due, Piers.
That's all I was thinking about on Sunday was, you know, your words and your advice.
So you put in tips, you bunker tips.
It's, you know, forget my team.
It's, you know, all the credit is down to you.
Thank you, Matt Fitzpatrick.
I'm very glad you're finally recognizing the massive contribution I've made to your victory.
The other game we played, which was actually hilarious, was we played in LA.
You wanted a game, a warm-up game.
Yes.
I got you on a course called Lakeside in Los Angeles.
Lovely course.
A lot of actors play there, entertainers.
Vinnie Jones was our host, which in itself was surreal enough.
And then halfway round, Joe Pesci from Goodfellas rocked up in a golf buggy.
And here's the picture of us all together.
And all I remember is that you were playing great on the front line.
But the moment Joe Pesci turned up, your game collapsed.
He kept staring at you.
And you couldn't basically hold apart after that.
Yeah, well, you know, when you've got famous actors like that watching over you, it's, yeah, that's way more pressure than any other event I've ever played.
But no, we had a fun day that day.
It was very enjoyable.
And it's a great photo, actually.
I saw it the other day for the first time since it was taken.
So, yeah, it was good fun.
Well, I've got a little message for you from Vinnie Jones, who was watching your triumph.
And he says this.
How are you doing, Matt?
Well done, son.
So proud of you.
Everybody is, the nation is with you.
I'm glad your bum weren't shaking in that bunker like it was when Joe Pesci came over and started watching us play golf at Lakeside.
Well done, mate.
We're really proud of you.
Don't take too much stick off of Piers.
We'll get you a better partner next time.
Cheers, mate.
Sarah, boy.
You say you want to win six majors, which would, of course, match you with the great Nick Faldo.
He's just quick today as a commentator.
He's retiring.
He's going to go off and do his golf courses off of that.
What's your feeling about that?
Yeah, you know, that's a shame.
You know, Nick's great on the broadcast.
Truth About The Accident 00:08:39
I know not a lot of people like him over here.
And I've been lucky enough to spend a little bit of time with him and pick his brain about a few things.
So, no, enjoy my time with Nick and I'm sure he'll enjoy his full retirement now.
Now he's not doing that anymore.
He'll probably get a bit more time to play golf again.
Well, Matt, you're already sounding like an experienced major winner.
You know, you've got the kind of cool, the cool chat now, haven't you?
It's all very, you said almost McElroy-like now.
So I have every confidence that given the help that I've given you with your career, given we've now got a major under our belt between us, you'll go on to ever greater things.
Absolutely.
But honestly, mate, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
You're one of the most down-to-earth people I've met in sport.
Your family are fantastic.
I'm so thrilled for them.
Billy's fantastic, you're caddy.
And I think everyone's just really chuffed for all of you.
Congratulations.
What a moment for you to be the US open champion.
And I'm just so glad you agree.
It's all down to me.
Thanks, Pierce.
I appreciate it.
All the best, man.
What a great day for him.
Great day for the country, isn't it?
With all these awful strikes over here, you see a young Englishman conquering the world in the sporting playing field.
Fantastic.
And says the next it's the case.
An interview is divided opinion across the world.
Jasmine Hartin shot on dead of police chief in Belize.
But is she a villain or a victim?
We debate that next.
Last time we had an extraordinary interview with Jasmine Hartin, daughter-in-law of billionaire Lord Ashcroft, charged with manslaughter by negligence of the shooting dead police chief Henry Gemmet in Belize.
Hartin insists it was an accident.
Gemmet's family is convinced otherwise.
Well the interview is divided opinion for tonight.
We'll debate is she a victim or a villain.
It was a very tragic accident.
I don't ever remember touching the trigger of the weapon.
I was struggling to remove the clip from the gun and that's when the gun went off.
I could see blood and feel the blood.
I tried to wiggle out from under him and that's when he started slipping into the water.
I've seen videos, which I know you will have seen too, of you expertly shooting a watermelon, for example.
I greatly disagree with you.
I've never owned a gun.
Jasmine Hartin.
I don't know when she's telling the truth.
She changed her stories so much.
My brother is so skillful and careful with his firearm.
He would never ever hand over his firearm to anyone.
So with the closeness from the back of his head, his execution still, I still believe that she should still be charged for murder.
Well, I'm joined now by Sharise Halsall.
a reporter in Belize is following the story closely and former Scotland Yard detective Peter Blexley.
Well, welcome to both of you.
Charisse, you've interviewed Jasmine as I have.
What is your belief?
I mean, I'm in two minds, I'll be honest with you.
I don't really know what to believe because there are lots of inconsistencies in her story.
But if she did kill Henry Jemmett deliberately, I need to work out why she would have done that.
And that's the bit I struggle with.
Although we know that she did say originally he was shot by someone from a boat, which in itself is suspicious because she knew that wasn't the case.
What is your take on this?
That's exactly my take, Pierce.
It's hard to decide.
We have her telling these different types of versions.
First, she says she never said anything about a passing boat.
Then she speaks to Discovery Plus and she says that she lied, which is on the record.
Then she speaks to you and once again says that she never said that.
So it's difficult, but essentially, and I've spoken with her many, many times.
I do believe that it was an accident.
I also believe it was an extraordinary set of circumstances that both her and the officer should never have found themselves in if they weren't being that irresponsible.
Okay, Peter, you've investigated many crimes in your time as a detective.
You've watched the documentary, the full interview.
What do you make of it?
I think Jasmine Hartin is not a very convincing witness.
And I really drilled down on the detail last night and paid attention to a lot of the minutiae, trying to find out and draw an opinion.
Is this a witness of truth or is this someone that we simply can't believe?
You talk about the relationship as to why she was there with Henry on that pier.
She spoke with glee about how happy she was to be leaving her relationship with Andrew.
She also spoke about how Henry was leaving his relationship of 14 years.
Two people exiting a relationship with a bottle of wine on a pier and a speaker to play some music and most dangerously, alcohol and a gun.
So what do you think happened?
What's your gut feeling?
Well, I'd like to see the forensic evidence and I'd like to see the pathology evidence.
That would help me hugely.
But while you ask that question, when Jasmine says she can't remember the finger being on the trigger or the trigger being pulled, this is a woman with some firearms training.
The way she shoots that watermelon on the beach is not a woman who's naive about using guns.
That's why this whole defense of he was teaching me how to use a gun.
Really?
Because you've been blasting watermelons on this footage we've got like a Navy SEAL.
And there is a picture of her clearly on a firing range.
You see the target behind her.
She's got the goggles on.
Look at that finger, the trigger finger.
Ramrod straight, not on the trigger, outside of the trigger guard, like it should do.
Good weapons safety skills being displayed there.
She's been taught those.
And again, when she has the shotgun and fires the watermelon, fairly soon thereafter, there's just a split second when you see her finger once again off the trigger and outside of the tree.
And yet she says, I can't remember putting the trigger.
Sharice, what do you think is going to happen in this case?
Because at the moment, she's facing this man-staughtered by negligence charge, which actually probably would mean less than a year of prison sentence.
And she would therefore probably get out because she's already served that time, even though she's currently out.
What's the feeling on the island of Belize about where this goes, this case?
She could face as little as a fine.
It's going to be very interesting to watch.
She has a very good attorney, very good Belizean attorney, as well as two UK attorneys.
It's anybody's guess what's going to happen at this point, but we're watching it very closely because it is a case that is somewhat unprecedented here, being that she came from such a powerful family and being the situation that she's now found herself in.
But really, manslaughter by negligence, she could get a fine.
And that's what we're thinking is going to be the outcome of this whole thing.
Which, I mean, Peter, in itself sounds extraordinary, given that this guy's dead and, you know, almost like execution style shot behind his ear.
And she said her leg was behind him.
It's all very odd, I think.
Indeed, it is.
And I urge anybody who didn't see the program in full to go onto the Talk TV website or onto YouTube.
Yes.
Watch it.
It's compelling.
It is compelling, isn't it?
And pay attention to the detail because on a couple of occasions early on in the interview, there's just a microscopic pause before Jasmine uses the word accident twice.
As she gets into the flow of things, accident flows into the conversation.
You know what's interesting?
I mean, I had a sort of gut reaction from people.
Some were absolutely certain she was telling the truth and was a victim.
Others equally certain she's a murderess, but couldn't quite work out why she'd murdered him.
It's the fact that actually you could go anywhere.
I mean, it depends really, you watch her and she talks away very eloquently.
I found her demeanor a bit weird, a bit cold, odd.
Yes, and I also found what she said odd, not only the way she said it.
And particularly for me, towards the end of the interview, she says, I know my truth.
Yep.
Hearing The Real Truth 00:00:33
Well, I want to hear the truth.
I totally agree.
Once you hear my truth, that's the Meghan Markle stuff, the trouble starts.
Peter, great to talk to you.
Sharise, great to talk to you.
I'm sure we'll be back on this case.
I appreciate it.
With iconic hits like Freedom of Faith, George Michael is one of the greatest singing and songwriting talents of his generation.
Tomorrow, in a censored, his former partner of 15 years, Kenny Goss, will join me for his first interview in five years to tell me how the former Wan Frontman changed the course of his life.
And he reveals what he really thinks killed the legendary singer.
That's it from me.
Whatever you're up to, make sure you keep it uncensored.
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