Neil Sanders, a former conspiracy-adjacent figure, critiques how fringe narratives—like vaccines as bioweapons or QAnon’s wrestling-inspired "heel" villains (e.g., Trump as Steve Austin)—persist by exploiting distrust and psychological comfort. He contrasts these with less "sexy" but evidence-backed conspiracies, like UK government collusion with big oil to delay lockdowns, while exposing how fabricated claims (e.g., "ice cream attracts sharks") thrive by repurposing unrelated facts into villainous establishment plots. The episode reveals how whistleblower tropes, such as Andrew Wakefield’s debunked MMR-autism link or the UK Treasury’s misleading COVID death stats, are weaponized to dismiss reality, proving that conspiracy theories often prioritize storytelling over truth. [Automatically generated summary]
And we're back with Truth Unrestricted, the podcast that would have a better name if they weren't all taken.
I'm Spencer, your host.
And I'm here today with Neil Sanders.
How are you doing, Neil?
I'm very well.
Thank you, Spencer.
Thank you very much for inviting me on.
Great.
Yeah.
So Neil is going to list off any and all experiences and qualifications he has for why he's here today.
Go ahead.
Well, I mean, I've sort of been in the conspiracy world for a bit.
Like, I've put out a couple of books on mind control, by which I mean sort of, you know, the actual documented evidence of military programs looking at the control of people.
So it does sound a little bit science fiction, but it's actually more grounded in reality than a lot.
And in the past, I've actually done quite a lot of work with people quite prominent in the sort of conspiracy world.
I did a brief series with David Icke and was hired by him for a short time.
I've worked with Richard D. Hall.
I've appeared on Art Bell.
And I've sort of, you know, know quite a lot of the people involved in the whole sort of thing.
Over recent times, basically, I've sort of fallen a little bit out of favor with that crowd because I don't believe a lot of the nonsense.
It started with, they fell out with me because I didn't think Pizzagate was real.
And then they fell out with me because I didn't think that climate change was a hoax.
Then they fell out with me big time because I pointed out that Brexit was a very, very great mistake on the part of the UK.
And now they really don't like me a lot of the time because I think that COVID's real.
So, and I don't think that the vaccines are designed as a bioweapon to sterilize or put microchips in each other.
So what I've been doing most recently is met with this guy called Brent, a really great guy.
And we do a podcast together called Sunday I Call It Conspiracy.
And what we like to do is we like to sort of examine some of the more classic or just conspiracy theories in general and really, really do a deep dive into them, like find out what the source of this is, find out what the evidence is, find out if the evidence has got any merit to it.
And then just basically go through the whole thing and see if they've actually got any legs to it at all.
Like surprisingly, some conspiracy theories are actually grounded in fact.
Like a lot are sort of LARPing, misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and people just grifting.
But there's, you know, everything's borne out.
All stereotypes are to a degree borne out some sort of degree of reality.
Like the conspiracies do exist.
I always say there's four reasons why people like conspiracy theories.
One, because they're fun.
Two, because basically they can define your life.
They can sort of give you a purpose and they can give you a sort of an identity.
And also basically they can do things like, oh, it doesn't matter if this is happening to me at the minute because the aliens are coming with the Nasara types in two years' time to save me.
Stop making plans, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I don't need to get off my arse and sort my life out because it's all right.
Aliens are on the way.
The third reason is because basically actually governments tend to spread disinformation.
Like, have you ever seen that meme with the Velociraptor and he's doing the sort of Dr. Evil thing?
And there's usually some sort of disparaging question that's underneath it.
Yeah, I think I've seen that.
That's Russian of origin.
I know there's a lot of, ooh, it's Russian and stuff, but that is genuinely Russian, basically.
And there is a concept called memetic warfare, which is used to essentially undermine foreign governments, like on various levels.
You could have something like say a Stuxnet or whatever that just destroys infrastructure.
You could have a Cambridge Analytica, which spreads disinformation, or you could have just sort of like rumor mills and stuff like that, which is not uncommon in the world.
And then so the fourth reason that people like conspiracies is because sometimes people get together and they conspire to either commit crimes or to defraud people or to spread an idea or ideology.
And that does actually happen on occasion.
Right.
So we're going to do a thing today that I kind of dreamed up one morning and I think it's a fun way to look at this.
We're going to do build a conspiracy workshop.
So here's the intro to this.
Most people listening to this will have at some point in their lives up till now, not last week because most of them are gone, but at some point years before, wandered into or walked past a Build-A-Bear workshop in a mall near them at Christmas time, usually.
And if you never walked into one of these or did them, I actually did once or twice.
You know, it's kind of neat at first.
You can, you know, you get the bear and you dress it up any way you like and you add all the little accoutrements you want and you're going to make a bear that has a monocle and a top hat and looks like the monopoly guy, if you like, or whatever you like.
And then you get your bear and it's meant to be your unique bear that no other bear in the world is just like your bear and it's it's just it's really yours.
It's not just off an assembly line.
But of course, what inevitably happened is that people began to recognize the style of bear it was.
And you could tell when you looked at different teddy bears a person might have that these were the ones from Build a Bear.
They were distinctly different.
They were different from each other, but they were also distinctly different from all the rest of, you know, beardom, if you want to call it that.
So when I was thinking about this and I mashed it up with the idea of these what I call conspiracy hypotheses is that these conspiracy hypotheses also look very much like each other and also very much different from like the rest of reality.
And so I thought it might be neat to with Neil to sit down and we can just kind of go through the steps you would do to create a fresh conspiracy.
And it would be all your own conspiracy would be just totally unique to you.
But of course, because it's just rolling off a sort of assembly line, it would still be very much like all the others because that's what you have.
I mean, that's what you had at the end of the day with Build-A-Bear.
You just had a crappy old bear that's just like very, very much like all the other bears.
It's just like an assembly line teddy bear.
It's just a little bit tweaked to be a little bit different.
That's all.
So let's start.
Well, just to sort of give a background, we had one of those Build-A-Bear things in the UK.
And myself is like a 17-year-old.
This is many, many years ago now, 17-year-old skateboarding stoner.
We used to go down to the Build-A-Bear thing and they have the voice boxes where you can record your personal message.
They'd just leave them all out, wouldn't they, in a box?
And so me and my friends, we might have just spent a good couple of hours just recording obscene messages on every single voice box and then used, you know, leaving and just surveying the carnage afterwards.
But who's to say?
But now, when you're talking about sort of building a conspiracy like that, I totally agree.
But I think there is a distinct distinction that should be made off the bat is there's some people that basically just make stuff up, like literally make stuff up.
Like with regard to, say, like COVID or whatever, these are the people who are doing the germ theory, anything to do with the vaccines, people pulling clots out, all of this crap, right?
Okay.
They are liars and they know they're liars.
They're doing it for attention and gravitas and some sort of like lionization.
There's a second, well, there's three really, because there's a second group of people who just basically gullibly misinterpret the information.
But I suppose they might fall into that category because the reason that they've misinterpreted that is because of their worldview, because they've got this complete worldview where basically everything is contrarian.
Everything works to pattern recognition of the past.
Everything works by a previous understanding of the system, right?
Basically, like, oh, we've seen this happen before.
That's, I've seen this phrase so many times.
We know what the government do with false flags.
We know what.
So we can interpret that that is this on this one.
Right.
Okay.
And then would that be like a self-referential reality tunnel?
Absolutely.
Right.
Okay.
But I mean, basically, let's look at it with COVID, right?
Okay.
The idea is that it's born in two things: pattern recognition and knowing and contrarianism, right?
So basically, the first thing is, let's do the contrarianism first, right?
So it comes on the television that there's a virus in China and it's going to be, it could be deadly for certain people.
Well, rather than look at it or basically get any sort of nuance to it, what the response was was, no, there isn't.
If the news says that, then the opposite must be true.
There is no virus.
And people would have taken it a step further to the point where they go, and we know they've done this before because we know that they faked the swine flu and the bird flu.
And we know that with the swine flu and the bird flu, that millions of people died from narcolepsy through the vaccines.
And again, that's massively problematic because basically none of that happened.
Right.
Okay.
What happened with swine flu and bird flu was that basically didn't turn out to be as virulent or as dangerous as it transpired or as it initially looked.
And so therefore, basically there was minimum response.
Some people got vaccines and stuff like that.
And I think something like 40 people, it may be 400, but it's a very, very minor, small amount of people got narcolepsy, which then later, as far as I'm aware, although I may be wrong, sort of sorted itself out.
So here's the problem with that, right?
Okay.
A, you're coming out from, you've misunderstood the previous pattern.
So that wasn't how you interpreted it.
And the problem is as well, is like, that's stupid.
Like, that's not how the world works.
Like, the world isn't as simple as that.
There are obviously some times where people will do the same thing.
For example, Russia has got, we'll go into a UK, poison somebody, do it blatantly.
And then our excuse would be, well, it can't be us because it's obvious that it's us.
And they've done that a couple of times.
So it looks so much like us.
It must have been someone else that faked it.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah.
So there is a degree of pattern within that.
You could also notice some sorts of patterns within some aspects of the war on terror, where basically, you know, like the low ball and all and the people who were basically used to sort of like they coerced testimony out of them about al-Qaeda cells and stuff like that.
And it turned out to be not true.
And basically, you know, it looked like essentially, you tell us what we want to hear and you'll get something out of it.
So again, there are patterns like that.
But to assume that every single event in the world is the same is A, flawed.
And B, it's quite juvenile in a way.
Because again, and I think this is why people have constructed something around something as massive as a pandemic is that, as you were saying before, it gives them sort of an explanation of the world, a worldview, and it sort of makes them safe from it.
With COVID, basically, they've gone, right?
The World Health Organization says that this is a deadly disease.
This is quite concerning.
I don't know what's going to happen.
I don't know if it's going to affect me.
I don't know if it's going to affect people that I love.
I might have to take a medicine that I don't want to take.
I might lose my job.
There's all sorts of variables and stuff like that.
And that's really, really difficult to sort of cope with.
So it's much easier if you delude yourself or you convince yourself through evidence or through your prior knowledge or whatever you want to call it, that actually this is all flim flam.
It's all a hoax.
And that falls into your construction.
So what they've done with this is they've constructed it.
They've said.
Well, we know that it's a hoax because the news says it's real.
And we know that it's a hoax because previous patterns have been a hoax.
Okay, so how can this possibly exist?
Well, if it's not real, there must be something else that is the driving force of it.
Now, initially, that was considered lockdowns, right?
It was considered that the point of this massive hoax about a virus is to lock people down indefinitely and get people used to basically becoming prisoners in their own home.
But again, here's the flaw with that.
It didn't happen.
In fact, in most countries, the opposite happened.
Like they went into lockdown too late.
They came out of lockdown too early.
Lockdown wasn't even done in a tight locking down.
It certainly wasn't comparable to, say, China.
Yeah.
Okay.
Right.
And again, this opens up sort of other arguments about, okay, well, was lockdown done.
The argument is brought into was lockdown correct or was it incorrect as a tactic?
And it's like, that's, that's nonsense, right?
Okay.
Was it done correctly?
Yeah.
Is the argument, right?
Were there people that were left out in the cold, so to speak?
Were there people that didn't know where they were getting money from?
Were there people that basically their businesses were ruined and stuff like that?
Absolute, absolutely.
Okay.
Yeah.
Because it wasn't done very well.
Right.
Right.
But you know, but you know, the idea that the concept that it wasn't done very well, doesn't that go massively against the idea that that was totally unprepared for it?
What makes you think that they were planning this the whole time?
But this is the point.
As you're saying, you were constructing these things.
You're making sense out of world events.
And after world events that basically involve hugely contradictory and complicated variables, like different countries react to it in different ways, because different countries have got different population sizes, different population densities, different age ranges, different customs.
You know, some people really shun shaking hands in America and Canada.
People are very like, you know, touchy feelings.
Versus Italy, where they're kissing each other every time they greet.
Or the UK.
I had a friend, right?
Okay, that in America, I've still got a friend in America, and he's astonished by how sort of anti-social the UK are.
I was talking to him, I'm studying the post office, and he says, oh, sorry, phone me or something.
I forget exactly.
And he says, I'll get off the phone because I'm probably interrupting your conversation.
I'm like, what are you on about?
Apparently in America, if you're in a queue, you talk to people in front of you and behind you to fill the time and to be thinking.
You know, if you did that in England, you'd get head-buttered.
Like, who the fuck are you talking to me?
I don't know you.
I don't want to know you.
Oh, people you don't know.
Yeah.
Oh, I see.
Right.
Okay.
Don't talk to strangers in England.
If you don't know me, you don't talk to me.
Certainly not in a queue.
You mind your own business.
That makes people incredibly uncomfortable in the UK.
I digress.
The point being that, like, you know, you've got completely different sort of ways of dealing with not only reality, but basically, you know, social interaction and stuff like that.
So you can take those discrepancies and you can go, well, if it's if it's not so, if it's as bad as they're telling us in England, how come they're reacting slightly different in Switzerland and Sweden and places like that?
And all of this can be used to as, what's the word that I'm looking for?
Discrepancies, essentially, holes in the official plot.
And so this would be how you're building this.
So why are you building this?
You're building it for a number of reasons, right?
Okay.
One, with COVID.
I'd suggest that the majority of people that I have seen that have taken it to the very, very wicked extremes of like germs don't exist.
Viruses don't exist themselves.
All this sort of stupid, Baychamp was correct.
Louis Pasteur was a fraud.
It's all about making.
Yeah, it's like they get this idea that reality is just a series of explanations.
And as soon.
Any other explanation is just as good as the one that's there.
So they can just remove one and then replace it with another and everything is still good.
The fabric of their reality is complete all the same.
I think that's exactly right because in this case, they didn't want, and I'm talking about very specific people that I won't name, but I just literally watched them have mental breakdowns and like, you know, have hysterical crying fits in their car and film it and stuff like this.
And because somebody had told them to go one way around the post office and this was apparently far, far too much for them to cope with, which raises the question, you can't cope going the wrong way around post office.
Seriously, guys, like, how are you going to cope when the new world order comes to your house?
Like, you need to man up a bit.
Anywho, these particular people, as you quite say, it's about building reality or consensus.
They're terrified that this virus might exist.
You know what's less terrifying than a virus?
No viruses at all.
So, you know, me and John were having this conversation.
John was really terrified about blah, blah, blah.
And I told him, you don't need to be terrified about that because Mike on the internet, Mike's told me that this thing doesn't exist.
Furthermore, the whole thing's a con, is it?
Brilliant.
So it's all part of a massive plot.
Why would that be better?
Because it's because it's more comforting.
It's one less thing to deal with.
You've got a closed loop.
Also.
The enemy you know, maybe.
Precisely.
This is the other point, Rake.
You know, if somebody drops dead, right, in the middle of the street from a virus or just from whatever.
Okay, it's horrific.
It's horrible.
There's no way to explain it.
Bizarrely, if somebody murdered them with a vaccine, say, or if somebody implemented a release of a bioweapon, right?
Like, say, COVID was a lab-released bioweapon.
That's more comforting because at least there's an explanation for it.
It's not just that the world or the universe randomly just went, I'm pissed off with you.
That's it.
Your life's down a shithole, right?
Okay.
Which is actually what happens because that's what happens in life.
Like life is random and cruel and unfair at times.
But again, because of that, it's just more comforting to do that.
And then to justify yourself even further with, say, the COVID stuff, because you've got pushback, people telling you, grow up, look, you need to stop this.
This is a bit silly, right?
Okay.
You're doing something that's actually going to hurt people.
I get it.
Blah, blah, blah.
So the pushback against that is, oh, you don't understand, right?
Two things.
One, I've done my own research.
And two, if only you knew, I'm a freedom fighter.
I'm not, I'm not whinging because I'm scared of a medicine.
No, It's not that.
I'm a fucking wolverine, me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, no, you're not, mate.
Like, you are literally just crying because somebody's asked you to do something that you don't want to do.
But you know what?
I was watching The Sopranos yesterday and there was a Carl Meller says, basically, you know what?
Getting what you want all the time is for babies.
This is the real world.
Act like an adult.
Like there's lots of things that happen that are out of your control.
And being able to sort of cope with that in a stoic manner is part of being an adult, basically.
You know, John Wayne up, for fuck's sake.
I thought The Sopranos was one of the best shows of all time.
The writing on it across seasons and everything was across characters was so good.
But I remember the little wire.
Yeah, well, the buyer, The Wire, I just watched a few years ago.
I was late catching up, but it was really incredible to watch that too.
But yeah, the Surprise is so incredibly layered.
Like, that's what I like about it.
You can go back and watch it.
And it's so funny as well.
As well, it really does have a little bit of everything, really.
Yeah, incredible.
And there's so many sort of subplots and hinted things and stuff like that.
And yeah, yeah, amazing.
Yeah.
It's watching the one at Christopher's.
Oh, I don't want to spoil it.
At a certain funeral, I just like the bit where the mother falls down to the ground on her knees and Tony goes, Oh, it's fucking oh, it's fucking James Brown over here all of a sudden.
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
But yeah, but no, seriously, though, um, did you like The Wire as well?
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah, it was front to back, start to finish.
It was on fire the whole time.
It was amazing.
But this, here's what's interesting about conspiracies, right?
Okay.
And again, I'm not denigrating all of them because I still happen to think that quite a few of them exist.
But if we're talking about these ones where, you know, rich people conspire together to remain wealthy, governments conspire to do the stuff that governments want to do.
It's just straightforward, basically.
Right.
But it's interesting what you're saying because like what's, what is it that's compelling about?
Say something like the Sopranos right okay it's uh, a world builder.
It's got a narrative, it's got characters, it's got a plot, it's got like a structure and it's almost like you were saying, as well, this has got to be the way with certain conspiracy theories.
They've got to fit into that person's world, they've got to have characters like Fauci is the bad guy, Bill Gates is the bad guy.
Um, you've got to have good guys, you've got to position yourself as the hero, like even though and that's an interesting take actually, because in both of those things are really the hero in both of those series actually that the heroes aren't necessarily good people.
In fact, the why you could argue that there's not a single good character in the entire thing um, and the Sopranos actually um, and it's interesting that people place themselves in these, in these narratives, isn't it?
And basically, do you know what I mean?
Like, for example, you've got people who are being lionized at the minute for for yeah, you know, you speak tooth to power, for telling people not to wear masks.
You know store walks of medical sort of disease prevention for decades, if not hundreds of years like okay, just standard, if anybody hand holds the hand up to the nose when they sneeze, you understand how a mask works.
Don't be so stupid, don't be so contrarian like okay, but again these people are being pitted as heroes.
Because in that reality, the problem is, if you, if they're not a hero, you're not a hero either.
You just actually instead, you're a rather sort of feeble callo kind of person who goes along with the narrative uh, unquestioningly for psychological comfort and actually does, actually does incredible, dangerous harm to other people.
You know, those other people that you're supposed to be protecting.
And the irony, Only if that is incredible, right?
Okay, but I don't think that these people have got the balls or the fucking bottle or the actual intelligence to sort of look at themselves in such a way.
Because the problem is you've had two years or over two years of this now, where people are doubling down and doubling down and doubling down.
And it's very difficult for people to turn around and say, oh, God, yeah, that was a hysterical whine over nothing, wasn't it?
Like most people just got on with their lives, didn't like lockdowns, didn't want to take a vaccine, understood the ramifications of your choices not to do that, got on with their lives, basically.
That was it.
It's not, it's not the mainstream at the minute.
There's an entire cottage industry of people who've spent the last two years moaning that any second that we're going to get put down, but back into lockdown.
And it's again, it's anti-it's not what happened in reality.
If you go back and actually remember what happened, it was like in the UK, we were properly locked down.
We weren't even properly, we're never properly locked down.
We were locked down for about, I think it was about six weeks in total.
And during that six weeks, you could go to shops, gyms were closed, and pubs were closed, which was a pain in the ass, right?
Okay.
Okay.
And they remained closed for a bit longer.
But you go see your friends, you could go the off-license, like you could phone your man, and he could still drop whatever you needed off.
Like nothing changed.
There was nothing, nobody that was left without anything.
In fact, the only thing that happened was I went, and I'm sure a lot of other people did.
Oh, my God, I've stocked my freezer with so much fucking stuff that I'm not going to use because you can actually get to the supermarket.
And so, and yeah, and it was actually very, very warm that summer as well.
So basically, most of the people were spent out all the time anyway.
But again, it's counter to reality because this idea that they wanted to lock us down indefinitely, and this is the point of the plot because they know the narrative because they've seen the patterns.
For a start, the UK government resisted locking down for four weeks, four weeks.
So they waited an entire month after they were supposed to.
They never shut down the airports, by which I mean they always allowed people coming into the airports, which coincidentally, coincidentally, favoured the petrochemical industry, who just so happened, Spencer, just so happened to be the donors of the government, right?
And one, the only major impact on lockdown was that oil went into negative equity for a single day, which meant that basically you had to, for the first time in history, it was worthless.
So you had to pay people to take it off your hands.
And then the anti-lockdown protests started.
Do you know who started the anti-lockdown protests in America?
Who started it?
Yeah.
No, I don't know who started.
The Heritage Foundation.
Do you know who the Heritage Foundation are?
They are a right-wing think tank, enmeshed with businesses.
Yeah, they've done more to destroy workers' rights in the US and through places things like Turning Point and the IEA in the UK.
They're trying in the UK as well.
They've done more to destroy workers' rights than any other think tank in the history of the planet.
Okay.
So why do you think all of a sudden they were keen?
Oh, if these workers stay at home, oh, they'll lose money.
Oh, so we best organise protests.
Why do you think the Heritage Foundation organized those protests?
Because they wanted you backing the work.
Yeah.
The lockdowns were terrible for business.
Exactly.
Right.
Now, what's really interesting, like Spencer, is you know what we've just discussed, right?
We've just discussed what actually happened, reality.
You know what that was?
That was a conspiracy.
The government conspired with big oil and big business conglomerates to downplay the pandemic, to resist lockdown, and to subsidize big business at the detriment of normal people.
That's fact.
It's a conspiracy.
It's also a crime.
But we're not focusing on that because it's not as sexy as there's microchips in the vaccines.
It's a bit too couchy in reality, isn't it?
And also, we'd already picked our lane.
We'd already picked our bear by that point and put the voice box in it.
So we can't go back and change it for the one with the monocle just because evidence has presented itself that that's actually reality.
You've got to go with the crap that you've already basically invented in your own head.
And then everybody becomes this sort of hive mind community of, oh, that resonates with me.
Oh, I always knew this.
Oh, I've always been a naturalist and blah, And then you get yourself into a position where, like, for example, David Icke, very, very early on, started saying it was 5G and that the virus didn't exist and that the PCR tests don't work.
And all of this is nonsense.
It's utter rubbish and bollocks.
Like, and the thing is, he knows it's utter rubbish and bollocks and nonsense because he's not a fucking idiot, right?
And so, but he's still repeating these lies.
Why is David Icke lying to his public?
Possibly to the detriment of his public's health, his fans' health.
Why?
Because he can't turn around and say, yeah, I was wrong.
I was wrong.
I've been wrong for two years.
It's also in his interest to put every bit of evidence available into his sort of fictional thread.
Yeah, absolutely.
Quilt, right?
Yeah.
And you get this point is the way they say it is.
Everything is in this realm.
Yeah.
Precisely.
So there's a point where basically, I mean, you must have seen this.
Somebody says, I heard that 5G causes cancer.
And so you go, well, no, it hasn't.
Or someone on the internet will post full fact or politi fact or snopes or one of these people.
And the initial response is, fact checking.
Well, you know that the opposite is true.
It's like, you silly suds.
Like, how could you have got yourself into that position?
Not even looking at the information, just going, if the news says it, or if fact checkers say it, then the opposite must be true.
Because that is, well, this is the nature of the crazy hidden spectrum of the world that we live in.
And it's like, I'm ever so sorry, but the world's not that interesting.
Or it is, but not in that way that you're thinking, right?
Okay.
Every day is opposite day.
Yeah.
And again, it positions people as, oh, I know best, or I've got the secret teachings.
I've read the Freemasonic books and I've noticed the patterns.
And it's like, here's the astonishing thing is that most of the people haven't.
They just haven't.
Right.
Okay.
Most of the people, like, for example, they read an excerpt that someone provided for them.
It's supposed to be a paragraph of a key point or whatever.
And it's probably not even from that.
The amount of people that have told me, for example, that, oh, I know that terrain theory or germ theories is fake, right?
Okay.
Like, sorry, the germ theory is fake, the germs don't exist.
Oh, yeah.
How'd you know that?
Well, I've read this book, haven't I?
Oh, yeah, which book was that?
It says, well, it's the book where Louis Pasteur's dying.
And on his deathbed, he says, Beauchamp was correct.
The microbe is nothing.
The terrain is everything.
And you read that, did you?
It's like, yeah, yeah, I read that.
So where did you read that then?
Well, I didn't actually read it.
I says, no, you haven't fucking read it, right?
For two reasons, right?
One, because you're not going to sit there and read an obscure French literature from the 18th century, are you?
Okay, let's be honest.
And two, and here's the most important reason that they've never read that, because that book does not exist.
It's a fabricated quote that is now on the internet, right?
It never existed.
It's never been said.
And furthermore, right, let's imagine that he did say that.
Who cares?
Who cares?
Right.
Okay.
You know, if Johann Cruff on his deathbed had said the Cruyf turn never existed, would that mean that the Crifter never existed?
You probably don't understand.
That's a football reference.
If Isaac Newton on his deathbed said this whole gravity thing was a thing I made up, that wouldn't make gravity not real.
Precisely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
The reproducible observations that, you know, once he let that out and he described it in equations and everything else, everyone else could see all the things and they immediately grasped it.
And it became a thing that changed all of science.
And it began physics.
I mean, it, you know, so to then have the guy that said it say, well, you know, I just made that shit up.
Well, it was an idea in his head.
And that way he did make it up.
But it is a thing that describes observations we have of our world and therefore it's not going away.
Yes, precisely.
This is the point.
And so it just becomes very, very strange, doesn't it?
And this is the thing.
And people construct it for different ways, right?
Okay.
One is to be one is because they're actually trying to find the truth, right?
Like, I know we've been sort of a bit denigrative of people, right?
But most of these people are actually good people.
They're looking to find the truth.
And they've basically, they've got a worldview that is a little, it's over polarized, essentially.
Like, do you know, this is the point, right?
It doesn't mean that conspiracies don't exist, but it's not that everything is.
And when you've got to that point where you think that everything that is the opposite, that's where the second group of people come in.
The grifters, the people that basically go, look, I've got a ready-made audience here, right?
I've got people who are disenfranchised, angry, confused, don't trust the government, don't trust institutions, and are generally suspicious.
They're actually quite bright people.
They're usually quite nice people as well, right?
Okay.
But then they have certain beliefs.
I can manipulate that.
And I'm thinking more, I mean, COVID is the obvious one.
Basically, you know, all these people like send me obscene amounts of money and I'll send you invectamin or hydrocloxychloroquine.
That's the most obvious con on the planet.
It's like, really?
And nobody's like seeing through this.
Or the people are basically like, you know, I'll give you these pads that detox you from the vaccine or protect you from 5G and these stickers that you put on your, like these are obvious cons and stuff like that.
Yeah.
A broader con in the same sort of sense would be something along the lines of QAnon.
Yeah.
An old point for QAnon.
Well, QAnon, right?
Let's be honest.
You know what QAnon is?
My friend Billy Ray Valentine nailed this.
Trump is his tactics.
He's he plays a wrestler.
Like, and by which I mean a WWE wrestler.
In fact, apparently, according to my friend who knows far more about this, he actually is adopting the characteristics of the character, Stone Cold Steve Austin, who was apparently opposed to the sort of the establishment, was sort of the anti-hero, good guy, but sort of knew when to cut corners and not take crap and stuff like that.
And interestingly, Trump.
Classic American hero, really.
Thank you.
Yeah, you think about all the crappy cop movies from the 90s and 80s.
That character trope is so hard ingrained into North American viewership.
McGonacle.
Yeah, all of that stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
So, um, uh, you know, it's like, oh, I don't like his methods, but you can't argue with the results.
That sort of yes, say dirty harry and all that.
Um, and he actually had the McMahons as part of his um of his campaign trail, basically.
Now, so, as an extension of that, like that's what QAnon is.
Like, QAnon is politics for people that don't understand and don't like politics, but do understand the narratives of wrestling, right?
So, what does QAnon do?
It does two things.
Well, it makes you want to vote for Donald Trump, or the time when it was very popular, it made you want to vote for Donald Trump.
That's the end result, that's the end result.
You've got a massive swathe of people who probably wouldn't vote, certainly don't understand anything about politics.
But you know what?
In the same way that Pokemon Go was very, very popular, people like to set themselves up as I'm on the side of the righteous, I'm on the side of people who are fighting against literal satanic paedophiles that have children in tunnels underground, like esconced throughout America.
People can get on board with that.
It's a narrative wouldn't get on board with saving the children, exactly.
This is this is the point, and it's not dissimilar with COVID and the vaccines.
You've got some very, very nefarious groups like Heart Group and Us for Them who are actually intimately connected with the UK government.
Like, for example, like, you know, the concept that the have you ever heard the idea that the lockdown killed more people than it saved?
I've heard it said.
Do you know where that idea originated?
No, the HM UK Treasury via a publication called Sergru Um Communications, right?
Okay, why?
Well, because the Treasury didn't want to lock down, the Treasury didn't want to spend the money on bailing out businesses.
So, the UK Treasury was actually the source of the concept that lockdowns kill more people than they save, which is, by the way, not true.
It's not true, but it's the more complicated answer to that is that even if it were true, we should probably have done it anyway, because if we hadn't, we would still have lost many more from COVID.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like, the balance here isn't between the number we did lose because we did it and the number that we lost in doing it.
The balance here is it's like a war.
Yeah, how many people died?
We, you know, whatever.
You look at dropped the bomb to analyze the numbers that lost in World War II, and that's terrible.
And, but imagine people afterwards said, you know what, why did we lose all these soldiers?
Why did we go to this war?
Why did we do this?
Why, like, this war was stupid.
We lost millions of these young men that was, you know, could have been useful for all sorts of other things in our society.
Why did we go to this war?
And of course, the answer is extremely obvious.
The alternative would have been to lose them all and more.
Yeah.
And also not be your country anymore.
You would be some other country.
Precisely.
Yeah, right.
And that's the real equation.
It shouldn't even matter if there were, and there weren't, but even if there were, it's still the better solution to save many.
Right.
But the irony of this particular Bilderberg conspiracy with COVID is that actually, whilst it's portraying to be the alternative media, for example, is seen to be anti-big business, anti-corporations, not in a leftist sense.
I mean, in a sort of big pharma, big corporations are evil and anti-government because they're the evil establishment or whatever.
And nearly all of their talking points originally came from the government, came from the Heritage Foundation, came from the UK Treasury, came from people that were hired by the government to downplay the COVID, like Sunisha Gupta and Carol Sikora and people like that.
And then these people were taken aboard the Great Barrington Declaration, which I'm sure you've heard of in America.
That's Coke Industries.
Right, it's, just coke industries.
There's no virologists on it, it's an oil industry.
Um, attempt to say oh, we shouldn't do that, we should just just carry on and keep going to work, and stuff like that.
The irony is again, that all these anti-establishment, anti-corporation people, you've had your pants down by corporations, and in such an obvious way that basically like it's ridiculous, but again, rather than basically like just admit it, they double down.
Oh, that's not a bloody patch on my trousers no no no, it's fashion bollocks.
You've been over a barrel.
But uh, i'm wondering if we want to just touch in on some of the structure I made here, because I think yeah sorry please, oh yeah, absolutely like I don't mind doing the freeform, but uh, I think at some points we've started to refer to some of the points coming up, and they're all in opposite order.
So let's just start from where I have at the start here, which is, we can go through this fairly quickly, but there is no rush to make.
Oh yeah, yeah.
So if you're going to build your own conspiracy, i.e like a build-a-bear, you need one thing first, which is the bear.
In this case though, it's the subject.
So the subject needs to have a few qualities it has to have.
The first is that it needs to be able to elicit outrage from whoever you're selling this idea to, right they.
They need to be able to engage with it and be just as angry as you're probably going to be when you're telling them about it.
Yes, and the second thing it absolutely needs is it needs to have a group or someone involved that can be sort of uh, what's that term in wrestling the?
Uh, the heel, the heel.
Yeah, it needs to have a heel and it needs to have a heel that the audience already has a uh, some sort of familiarity with, familiarity with, but also is likely to not trust.
And also, but now, here's the interesting thing about that, you've got to have a familiarity, but you've not got to actually know that much about them.
Right well it's, it's useful if you don't absolutely.
Yeah, like I say like um uh, like a children like George Soros.
That's what I was trying to say.
That's why he's the perfect heel for most of these, because they don't know much about you don't know much about him.
He's not a public figure, he doesn't really do interviews that i've ever seen, and the more you know and this is a?
Uh, sort of a Chinese fingercuffs motion here is that the more he's mentioned in conspiracies and then also doesn't do any of his own press to just become a human being in our minds, the the, the more, the more strongly he becomes that heel for all of these conspiracies.
Yeah totally, totally.
Yeah, apparently like what's the astonishing one that always gets me about George Soros us is that apparently he's trying to this uh billionaire for some reason, is trying to spread communism.
And it's like because he's a Nazi or something and right.
And it's like if you actually looked into George Soros and saw that he'd done more, particularly in places like Hungary, to to rid them of the vestiges of past communist regimes than any other figure on the planet, that that sort of accusation becomes immediately sort of new.
Yeah, but to a degree there's got to be a a degree of truth.
In as much as we know, he's a little bit dodgy.
In as much as he shorted the pound, he's made a huge amount of money by being ruthless, right?
Yeah, that is true, it's difficult to make that much money without being ruthless.
You say the same thing of Bill Gates, which is why people say they're like you know who else.
You could say the same about uh, Steve Jobs and, for some reason, people like Steve Jobs, he's perfectly ruthless exactly, absolutely.
You could say, not just with people who are opposed to him, with people that work for him.
You could say the same thing about Trump but, for whatever reason um, you know, people decided, oh no, we'll just forget all that, like you know, we'll ignore, we'll ignore the evidence of our eyes ears, and just go along with his marketing campaign.
That's something i've used as as evidence of the idea of, like the Illuminati being a thing that's very unlikely to be occurring is that all of these people are ruthless and selfish and they get a direct benefit from being ruthless and selfish.
They're disincentivized to play nice with each other together.
Yeah yeah, they have more to take from each other, as was the case with Bill Gates and Steve Jobs taking from each other for years.
Yeah yeah, quite yeah, like literally stealing, literally stealing from each other.
That of course they would.
They would steal from each other at every point because that's, that's where they are, that's where they sit that's I, I think, a better way of I mean, right okay, there are elite people.
There's very, very well, wealthy people, there's people who have got a lot of power etc.
That wish to remain in power.
Okay, but I would.
And if you want to call that Illuminati fine right okay, but but?
But it's more akin to, they don't turn up on every every second thursday in the month at Illuminati meetings right, it's think of it more like uh, Mount Olympus, where they're all basically vying against each other.
They don't particularly like each other, they're actually a bit trap and get a lot of stuff wrong.
Yeah, they're definitely not working together.
If that's the case precisely or, or what would be a better example would be, perhaps the mafia like again, my friend Billy Ray Code with this, like the idea that basically like sometimes, factions will fight against each other, sometimes they'll work together.
Sometimes Johnny Red will start a war against Johnny Black or whatever right, sometimes they'll murder each other, but you know what they all want to do.
They all want to continue the mafia.
Yeah right so so, so that's that.
That's a way of thinking about it.
Rich people wish to stay rich and they don't necessarily need to be ideologically aligned by some sort of occult ceremony, because they tend to think in the same way anyway.
That's how they've got to where they are like, or they've been raised in the same sort of schooling, Schooling system or whatever.
Like, so basically, you know, they have a similar outlook anyway.
So, so, yeah, it's not to dismiss that these things happen.
It's that basically, again, people rather than looking at the complicated, multifaceted nature of it, it's simpler to go, there is an Illuminati or whatever, and George Soros tells everybody what to do, and Klaus Schwab tells everybody what to do.
Bloody hell, you have to become 80 before you get any power in the Illuminati.
And most of the people who are in those conversations didn't get there by just listening dutifully to other people and doing what they said.
They did it by saying, screw everyone who's trying to tell me what to do.
I do it this way.
So, if you went to the, if you showed up at the World Economic Forum and Klaus Schwab went up to you and started telling you specifically what your part in this was, the likelihood of you saying, Yes, of course, Mr. Schwab, I'm on board, are very low because you're not employee number eight.
No, you know, you are CEO number one in your mind.
Elon Musk is like listening to anybody, even to the detriment of his businesses.
Like, so yeah, well, he's he's different.
He's to the point.
He's almost, I compare him more to Michael Jackson or Elvis in that he's, it's, it's, I don't know what really goes on in his personal life, but the, the, uh, the output that we see from our end is indistinguishable from a person who has accumulated a lot of power and has removed everyone in his life that would provide any kind of negative feedback.
Yep.
And this is what we're seeing.
And we saw it with other, you know, like look at Elvis's life for the last 10 years of his life.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
It's important to have somebody to ground you and tell you no every now and again.
And how a guy got there might have been different than how Michael Jackson got there, for example, maybe.
I don't know.
I don't know enough about the inner workings there, but they obviously got the same thing.
Like, you know, obviously he got injected with propanol.
Like, I'm not sure that he should.
Get out.
Now bring me the propanol.
Yeah.
Same thing with Eminem.
Eminem nearly died because of the same thing.
You know, this is same thing with Scott Storch, for Christ's sake.
He was like, you know, when you get into a position where nobody will tell you, like, serial editing will come cropper because you do something silly.
Right.
Okay.
So, yeah.
But so you have to have friends who are saying, look, that was stupid, man.
Yeah.
Really.
And if no one can tell you that, you need to find a friend that can do that.
Really, you do.
I think that Elon Musk is lonely.
I think he's, I think he's having a midlife crisis.
I think he's lonely.
I think he's alienated some of his kids.
He's alienated most of his kids.
He's alienated his exes.
His current ex is very pissed off with him.
He's desperately, desperately wants to be the cool kid in school.
And he's 55.
Get a fucking laugh.
I remember you saying this on another podcast about him being the guy with the new motorbike who pulls outside the school and everyone kind of looks at them and he revs the bike and storms off.
And I thought that was a beautiful analogy.
Thank you.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I was like, wow, that's really on point.
Yeah.
I mean, this is the point, the poor sad guy.
Like, you know, he could do anything.
But again, as you say, like, the analogy is like sat outside of school, revving it to impress the hard kids in year four.
And it's like, who wants to impress the hard kids in year four?
Only a deeply, deeply troubled, lonely person.
Yeah.
And like, you know, he could do anything, anything he wants.
Like, but the agony of decision, I suppose.
Yeah, in other conversations, he's trying to go to Mars.
And then in all the conversations about us, he's like, there's got to be something in these files.
You know what I mean?
There's got to be something in here that shows me I was right the whole time.
And he's never.
But again, that's another builder bear one, isn't it?
Like, It's pitting Twitter as some sort of machination of the state connected with this to, you know, to hide something.
Because this is, this is the point like it's either outrage, as you're saying, or I suppose it ties into outrage, but there's different types of outrage, right?
There's the outrage that I can't believe they're getting away with this.
There's the outrage that there is a plot to kill us, and then there's the outrage of uh hiddenness, hidden uh science, hidden crypto zoology hidden, uh medical things like you know uh, cures for cancer and aids and stuff like that, hidden space tech and all that sort of stuff, so that, so that would fall into that sort of outrage um, part of it.
And again, with all of those things, your villain uh is the set, which would be the second stage of the building bear, is the establishment, the scientific establishment or uh, you know uh the, the government, the military or whatever that's hiding these things and or proliferating them.
For example, if you want to say, say something like say chemtrails, which are there to kill you through the air um, still haven't done it yeah yeah yeah, you know it's taking its time, isn't it?
But like there's a moment in the future, this is always the thing that's happening a lot now with the vaccines is that there, there'll be some moment in the future beyond which you know like, there's a time release vaccine and it's, you know, this point in the future everyone's going to start.
Suddenly, you know, you'll start seeing the evidence of the danger of this thing and it's like well, i'm pretty sure you won't.
But um, what makes you what?
What mechanism do you think is at play here that leads you to this conclusion?
Because I don't think I mean, if you were desperately cynical about that Spencer, or you'd say that basically, if I say this is going to happen in a few years time right, anything like anything really, that then I can continue to make money from my audience for that few years time, and you know when it comes about that it didn't happen.
Um, then there's always the uh, there's always the classic, that's because we made too many people aware of it and so they have to cancel, that.
Our good works pushed off.
The yeah yeah, I mean this is, but this, this calamity.
I guess we're going to come to it here, so maybe we'll just stick to, because that's one of the points coming up here.
Is that okay?
So so, after we pick a subject for our conspiracy, and maybe we haven't picked one, maybe we won't, I don't know, but oh, we want to make one up okay, I mean, if you like sure, I mean, it's nice to make an actual bear at the end of the day right, all right, you came out of the store.
You have a monopoly bear.
Let me think of, let me think of one, uh to do.
Ice cream attracts sharks.
Ice cream increases shark attacks.
Okay yeah yeah, okay.
So that's good, because everyone saw, even if you didn't see jaws, you know the point and you know sharks are bad.
They've been around for a very long time um, and they, they tend to attack people in the summer when people are on the beaches.
But you know what else is on the beach, ice, ice cream yeah, so you're not telling me that's a coincidence, Fencer?
Well I, I don't have enough data to say with any kind of conclusion that that's a coincidence.
So obviously that must be true, right?
So this is so.
The outrage is that basically, like people, and some people know and are using this to Eliminate some portion of us.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that satisfies both points for the subject.
Okay.
So after we have a subject, there's a few principles we have to follow as we're making this.
So the story we make about this has to have all the regular elements of storytelling: plot, characters, setting.
So we have a setting.
It's the beach.
It's wherever sharks are, which sharks, they're all over the world, man.
All I mean, some of them aren't even in the ocean.
There's sharks in rivers.
Yes.
You know, I went to Australia.
They told me all about them.
I didn't see them, but they warned me.
So obviously, this is on some people's minds.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
So we have to have a plot.
I think we have something of a plot here.
I mean, you know, we're borrowing also from a movie, which is also a great conspiracy making thing.
Jaws was a great movie.
I don't not going to talk about the ones that came after, but the first one was really just fine.
It was, it was great.
And of course, we need characters.
So I think we need characters other than merely sharks.
Sharks don't make very good characters, sadly.
No.
Even in Jaws, it was a little tough, right?
You'd need, well, this is the point.
This is why you need a Roy Schneider or a Quint or somebody like that.
So like, you would need somebody.
You need a whistleblower.
You need somebody to stop.
So you need someone to learn this story, right?
Yeah.
You need like to expose it.
And then you'd need like, so this would be somebody that's here's an idea.
I got this one from Alex Jones.
Here's an idea.
Why don't we find some homeless person who lives in a beach town?
Yeah.
And we get that guy to come on the air and tell us about the conspiracy.
Yeah.
That seems like, and it won't cost that much.
Obviously, it'll work.
We have an eyewitness.
Eyewitness testimony is the nothing beats eyewitness testimony, right?
Clearly, even scientific evidence can't trump eyewitness testimony.
Yep.
Really?
Well, this is it.
Well, yeah.
But you'd like, I mean, with all of these things, it depends how far you want to go with it.
Because like, you've, you've seen some ludicrous shit.
Like, I mean, in that, like, venom in the water and stuff, like the idea, he was saying that basically, what was it?
He said, basically, COVID vaccination in Latin means like the Pope's snake venom or something, which obviously doesn't, like, but you know, like, and even if it did, like, that's what gets me about these things.
They, they put a lot of clues in these things, don't they, in these secret plots?
Like, yeah, like, I suppose the clue in ours would be that I scream.
I scream.
You scream because you're being killed by a shark.
It's an occult ritual.
It'd be great.
It'd be even better if we could work numerology in there somewhere.
But I like where we're starting from.
We can still find some numbers that work in maybe the numbers of the letters or something.
We can work that in.
We'll workshop that.
We'll come back to that one.
Numerology is great because if you can find some false patterns in there to make it look like something's there when it's not.
There's only so many bloody numbers.
Like that's what gets me about.
It's like, oh, that's a magical number, and that's a magical number.
It's like, are there any numbers that aren't magical numbers?
Because even the ones that aren't, you can say, well, four, but four is one and three.
And three is a magical number, as is one.
And it's like a lot of things come in threes, right?
It's a magical number.
Yeah.
Seven's a magical number.
Yeah, that was talk about it all through history.
Seven wonders of the world and seven C's and all of these things.
It's a obviously nine, so is 11, so six, so's eight, because it's represented.
13 is a magical number.
We were afraid of it for a long time.
Yeah, obviously.
Precisely.
This is this is it.
32, 33.
Yeah.
Anything that you can add them together to make any combination of those numbers or subtract them or divide them to make any combination of those numbers.
Yeah.
Well, and that's why numerology factors into so many of these things is it i've got it what the number basking of robbins oh yeah 31 flavors 31 1 and 1 oh there's got to be something it's an inverted 13.
well okay yeah our great that's good but what if you take what if you take um the word ice yeah and you make the i and ice a one and the e in ice a three oh Or C. We've done it.
C E is Roman numerals, isn't it?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, which number is that?
I think it's 100.
Well, C is 100.
Or is it 1,000?
No, I don't think I've seen it.
I'm not sure about E. I'm not familiar enough.
And it must be a large number because it's not one of the smaller ones.
Oh, it'd be good if it was 13.
Yeah, but you know, you could work the 100 in there somewhere.
Absolutely.
That seems fine.
Okay.
So we have enough of the fakeness there that's going to connect with some things with some people.
I don't know if it's fake anymore, Spencer.
I'm pretty convinced.
We'll debunk it at the end in the style of some dare colour conspiracy.
And then, of course, we'll have to pay you and Brent some money at the end.
So the next point I have here, next principle I found is that when you create a plot, you must draw from details that are regularly available to the audience.
I guess we were just doing that, but what I listed here was famous historical events like wars, for example, are really great to work in there.
So for some conspiracies that exist, it's really great to throw in things like, yes, the Illuminati has been around for a long time.
They were secretly behind all of these other wars.
They planned out the Vietnam War because of some, you know, lack of a lot of people.
The finance both sides of the First and Second World War.
Sure, yeah.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
They took control after the Battle of Waterloo, all of this nonsense.
Yeah, right.
And of course, what's really key about this is that it needs to include new information that wasn't available to them.
It has to include old information that they know already.
And it has to include new information that they don't have and preferably things they can't find on their own.
Yes.
Sort of, so it's, it's like a play.
There's things happening out front, right in front of you.
And then there's also things happening behind the curtain off to each side and behind parts of the, you know, all of it is part, both things are needed to make the illusion real.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, totally.
So the next point is that the end of the plot must not be written.
It must, and it must actually never come.
The best ones, they're never, the end is never coming.
This is why QAnon has so much force because the storm was never coming.
The storm was always, it's a carrot.
It's there.
It's somewhere in the future.
It's right in front of you.
You have to follow it because the storm is coming, but it's never right there.
It's, it's, once you get there, you find out that it's even further on.
It's, you know, you, you know, and the audience is the horse following the carrot.
I've got a great example of that one.
Like, well, did Andrew Wakefield?
Like, Andrew Wakefield, who's the person who basically started the concept that the MMR vaccine causes autism.
And he did it.
His entire study was done on 12 children, two of whom who didn't have autism, one of whom had already had autism before they got the vaccine.
And most people don't actually even know his theory.
His theory is that actually the measles part of the MMR vaccine retains itself in the stomach, which causes your stomach to leak.
And then at some point in the future, which I must point out is not a real thing.
Some point in the future, you eat bread, and this bread turns into morphine in your stomach, gets out of the leak in your stomach into your bloodstream, goes into your brain, and the morphine causes encephalitis, which is a swelling of the brain, which ultimately results in autism.
That's his theory.
Most people who talk about Wakefield don't even know what his theory is.
They think that it's aluminium or something like that.
Right.
So he has described a mechanism, but no one else can see it.
No.
In fact, when he, in fact, he was never able to find any evidence of measles virus in any of these children's stomachs.
And he was very thorough about it.
He abused these children essentially to do it.
He held down screaming autistic children and did endoscopes on them against their will and found nothing.
Right.
Then later, basically, his university said, Look, and well, you know, the other thing that Wakefield, that people don't realize, you know, why he was trying to discredit the MMR vaccine?
Because he had his own vaccine.
Yeah, he had his own vaccine, which the patent is freely available.
An injectable measles vaccine, it is described as in the patent.
And he wanted to bring this to market with the help of Big Pharma, ironically.
What happened was his university turned around to him and said, Look, this is a bit of a conflict of interest.
Can you do the study again with 150 children?
We'll provide you with the children and all the resources that you need to do.
If you can repeat the results, then you can do what you want, go off and become a multi-millionaire.
And he refused to repeat those experiments.
He just refused to do them because he knew that he'd fabricated the results of the previous experiments.
And the reason he fabricated the results of the previous experiments was because he wanted to discredit that particular on-market medicine so that he could put his own replacement vaccine on the market.
Right.
This is all in the public domain.
You can find it out.
I have heard that elsewhere.
Yeah, for sure.
Right.
But the fact that it is in the public domain and the fact that it is in the mainstream means, as you say, that this will have no end because the mainstream have obviously described what a hatchet job.
Oh, look at the way that they've destroyed this man's reputation.
Well, actually, they haven't.
They've looked at his evidence and they've pointed out the massive holes in the evidence.
And then they've said that this is indicative of a bad character because it is.
But this is the problem.
I know loads of people that still really, really rate Andrew Wakefield and think he's a hero.
And nine out of ten of them don't actually know what his details of his experimentation or what, in fact, what his theory was.
But that's going to go on forever now, right?
Because any mainstream pushback against that theory is seen as mainstream covering up what a brave whistleblower exposed.
Yeah.
It's the same thing with all of COVID.
If there hadn't been other whistleblowers that had, if every whistleblower had been lauded as a hero the moment they came out, you know, it would be a lot harder to make that narrative.
But in the past, there have been true whistleblowers who worked very hard to conceal their identity and to avoid other, you know, potential conflicts because they knew that they were going to be targeted and destroyed publicly, specifically in like the tobacco industry.
And I'm sure that there's been instances, and I'm pretty sure there were whistleblowers around the whole DuPont PFAS scandal and stuff like that.
Yeah, absolutely.
And so again, but this is the point.
That is a real thing, isn't it?
But if you can portray yourself as that type of a hero.
And you know what?
Sometimes it's real.
Sometimes it's by accident.
Sometimes it's because people have very cynically exploited that trope and that narrative.
Because again, it goes back to point two or three or whatever.
This is part of the narrative that people couldn't understand.
your whistleblower, your plucky individual going against the state.
I want to be that plucky individual going against the state.
Yeah, that's that's a central part of movie making, storytelling.
Again, that plucky individual.
So we need one for our conspiracy.
I mean, obviously it's us, right?
We're the plucky individuals who are willing to show this to the world.
Well, what you would need in this one is you'd need somebody, you'd need a marine biologist called John Everyman that has been trying to warn people about the dangers of big ice cream for many, many years and thus has been hounded out of his job.
And he's seen as a bit of a recluse and perhaps got a bit of a drinking problem because of the collapse of his marriage after his career was destroyed by big ice cream and stuff like that.
Maybe even serve some jail time on some sort of pretty nasty charge.
But we're pretty sure that he didn't do it.
He was set up.
Those kids weren't really in his van at all.
Yeah, right.
Do you know what I mean?
So like, so that's what you'd need.
You need a character like that in this one.
Somebody that is sympathetic if you're involved with the narrative.
But it's also understandable why up until now, perhaps he's been rejected, say, because he's threatening everything.
He's threatening all of this, the commerce on the beach, like say a Wakefield or all of these COVID grifters.
They're threatening big farmers' profit margin, aren't they?
They're threatening the real narrative and stuff like that.
With this, he'll be threatening essentially, you know, the seaside or whatever, or, you know, the ice cream industry.
And there's all sorts of stupid stuff that you could basically say to sort of reinforce this.
Well, have you noticed that basically they're not allowed on the beaches anymore, ice cream vans?
They've got to be carts that can get away off the sand really, really quickly or just a bit back.
That's because they're trying to sort of like move it away from the sharks.
If they can move it further away from where they can smell it, perhaps it'll attract them less or something.
Like, this is the point.
Once you get into.
I would turn that around and say they're putting it in the small carts because they're trying to get the ice cream closer to the water.
Oh, that's better.
To endanger the people.
Okay.
There you go.
I like that.
I like that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
See, the same visible evidence can be used to explain it the exact opposite way.
I like that too.
But that, that, again, that you can use that in anything, really.
Without any other connecting factors, just the fact that they're there on a lighter cart that can go on the beach instead of just on the road.
Well, that's, you can just explain that any way you like because we're not going to go and ask anyone.
Why would we?
Yeah.
No, obviously.
No, again, it's about all these sorts of like painting a picture, isn't it?
And stuff like that.
It's like the idea that George Soros was a Nazi.
It's like, it's not really relevant, if we're honest.
It's just painting the concept that he's a bit of a bastard.
I mean, it's not true, obviously.
Like apparently, when he was about 14, for one day, he was hiding.
He was escaping.
Obviously, he's Jewish and was being hidden by a Christian, by a reverend, I believe.
And the Nazi turned up and said, right, today you're coming out and you're helping us shift all this stuff that we've pinched from other Jews.
And he was asked if he felt guilty about it.
He said, no.
Like, to be quite honest, it was, he uses a strange phrase.
He says, I think it was a merry-making sort of thing.
But you're 14, whatever, and not dying during a war.
Like, I think it's a bit unfair to like, did you feel responsible for the entire actions of the Third Reich when you were forced to do that action one day when you were 14?
Yeah.
Because maybe you should.
A similar thing I'm reminded of is when during the 2016 U.S. presidential election campaign, it came up that Hillary Clinton had, you know, worked as a volunteer in one of the many hundreds or whatever of offices for Barry Goldwater, and that this was somehow a sign that there was some extra connection.
And I thought to myself, well, she's 19 years old.
She's working a phone, probably.
She's politics.
Yeah, she's learning about how the politics works and blah, blah, blah.
And then eventually she becomes a politician.
Why is why anyone surprised about that?
Wasn't Goldwater Republican, though?
Wasn't he the guy that was a little bit more important?
I think he was.
Yeah, I think there was, I can't remember all the details of why this was somehow damaging for her.
That I don't know, it was maybe it was like something like compromise of principles.
She used to work for Republican and now she's a Democrat or something.
I don't know.
Well, the other one that they do is that she and she and Obama, they're acolytes of Saul Lilinsky, aren't they?
They were basically like, you know, Saul Lilinsky, that well-known communist, he basically taught them to be like, you know, shock troops.
And it's like, no, like every part of that's wrong.
Saul Lilinsky is in absolutely no way a communist, right?
Again, what gets me about a lot of these like theories as to that is people not reading the source material.
Like, go and read Saul Lilinsky's book.
All it tells you is the best way to get stuff done, right?
Okay.
It's nothing to do with communism.
In fact, he implicitly and explicitly rejects the communist manifesto because he says you can't stick to anything too rigidly because then you don't have the maneuverability in the scenario that you're in.
What he's about is about creating it's about creating action and creating like, you know, noise and getting things done by drawing attention to mass projects and getting sort of community action and stuff like that.
But this is the point.
It's just that's how a lot of these things work is that they appeal on a narrative level, particularly if you've got this preconceived idea about how the way the world works, more than actually sort of, more than actually are real, so to speak, basically.
Right.
So I have one more principle that I found really has to be true if you're going to really have a conspiracy that's going to work in this way.
And it's the part that's, it probably should have been two principles, really, but I just sort it all into one.
So in our great conspiracy in our story here, there has to include somewhere in here some upcoming calamitous event.
That's the best one.
As if it leads to something that ends something that everyone's going to love, then that's what we really need.
And what would really be good in there is if it could include a call to action, but soft action, not like hard collecting guns and attempting to storm a building action, but like soft action, like giving money in the right places so that the people who are in the know can affect more positive action to make the problem go away.
And then also that that money eventually, if not directly, but eventually comes to us.
I mean, that's what we really want as part of this is that it comes to us.
So maybe, maybe we have a different ice cream we're going to sell that doesn't attract sharks.
Okay.
And it's, it, it's made from some different ingredients.
So it's going to cost a little more.
Yeah.
And it might not quite have all the, you know, delicious flavor.
Yeah.
But it's still good ice cream.
And you are saving the world by buying it.
You've got to come from two angles though, as well, because there's the what we want to achieve out of that, um, as the sort of passive person, or but what they'll say, the powers that be wanted to achieve as well, which is ultimately, I suppose, what they're saying is they don't care how many people die, they just want to make money.
And I suppose the more ice cream you eat, the fatter you get.
So, the slower you are in the water, the more likely to die from other health conditions and stuff like that.
It's like with the COVID, right?
Like, so basically, the two end games of it, well, there were three and they keep oscillating.
Massive world depopulation, uh, massive control system, i.e., basically, you know, lockdown forever, like getting people used to sort of enslavement and uh control grid type behavior, data agreeing to wear a mask is one small step on a slippery slope to agreeing to everything they'll tell you to do.
Yeah, precisely.
It hasn't worked for my boss so far, but whatever.
Well, it's just like you know, you could again, you could do that with anything, like you know, like wearing a seatbelt is just that's about conformity, isn't it?
Right, okay, like going on the roads where they tell you to go, that's conformity, isn't it?
Have you ever seen road signs?
They're all pyramids, they're all pyramids, aren't they?
And they're all primary freemasonic colours, like red and white and blue.
And they have they have messages, subliminal messages like yield, symbolic yield, seeing yield and give way every day subconsciously goes in, doesn't it?
And it crushes you down.
All merge in I bet you've just yielded at those signs without even consciously thinking about the fact that it's there.
That's the worst one.
All merge in turn.
We should have picked that as a conspiracy.
We should have done.
It's a better one, isn't it?
Oh, well, yeah, next time, maybe.
Yeah, hey-ho.
But again, again, all merge in turn.
That's about that hive mind.
It's about subconscious, like whatever.
Like, so, but this is the point.
So, with COVID, it was either sort of mass depopulation or control system, and now that or mandated vaccines, and now that none of those have happened, they've mashed them together by saying, Well, it was then training you for the next one where basically everybody will happily lock down and cut their own legs off.
Um, and or well, actually, it was a double bluff.
You see, the uh, the depopulation is coming through the vaccines, which is which doesn't make any sense because it's like, why not just release a deadly virus?
Like, you know, if the plan was to kill people, yeah, and only give the vaccine to the people you'd want to live, yeah, yeah, yeah, like the people who've gone to get the vaccines are the people who are easily taken in by the government propaganda.
Aren't those the people like that you want to remain alive?
Like, if all those people die, all that's going to be left on all you have left is the rebels, yeah, right said Fred and James Melville, and uh, oh Christ, I'd love to let's make a remake of Red Dawn where Wright said Fred, like uh to play the uh the Patrick Swayze character, yeah, basically, like both of them.
They like each scene they can just swap, and we'll that like they look similar enough, yeah, that'd be brilliant, but yes, so with ours, it's a bit, yeah, you've again, it usually boils down to depopulation or some sort of dumbing down of the planet, or some sort of if that sort of thing takes you as well, some sort of spiritual nullification or dilution of people,
like you know, stopping people getting access to their telepathy that you can get through ley lines and crap like this or whatever.
Um, or it's somehow a satanic ritual, or it's some sort of esoteric ritual or whatever.
Like, you know, we'll just go with that one.
It's about sort of like blood rituals in the water on the sand.
Got to be something about.
In fact that's a freemason thing.
It's nice if we have, you know, like if it's not just one story, if we have a few different sort of flavors of the story to serve to different audiences.
So I like your idea about the demon sacrifice stuff.
Maybe some of the sharks are demons and we're directly feeding them.
That'd be good.
Oh, that's nice, I like that.
Yeah yeah sure yeah, that that's interesting.
It feeds, it has all the right things.
When the sharks bite, the blood goes everywhere.
I mean that's.
Have you ever heard the theory that either octopuses or dolphins are in fact aliens?
No, i've never heard that.
Ah right, there is a theory.
It's not a stupid theory, it's like, well, the dolphins one is I think I may have made that up from Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy.
Actually however, the octopus one, i'm pretty sure that that like there's a someone's gone.
These are a bit weird.
It doesn't look like they've come from this planet, like I don't.
I don't think they even mean it in its like um, I think they mean that perhaps it came down or something, I don't know.
But anyway, there's a theory that vaguely connects it, which is good enough for us.
What if?
What if sharks also were aliens, you know, and that's why a certain type of people are trying to hunt them down, because they know the truth, they are the they live guys with the sunglasses that can see the aliens.
Yeah yes oh, I like that like, because that ties in with the green agenda as well, because it's got to be bottom because like, obviously the green agenda is just well.
If the if, if they say that it's for the good of the planet, obviously it's not for the good of the planet and they don't like people killing sharks.
Ah, this all fits perfectly.
Must be trying to stop these alien overlords, but exactly, taking over their minds, from dying off.
They have to save their habitat and if and if big ice cream can make millions out out of it at the same time well, that's just all.
That's just gravy, isn't?
It just gives them a reason to participate in the conspiracy.
There we go, that's brilliant.
Yeah, I love that.
Now we have to sell our ice cream so that the people can still have their freedom to go to the beach and freedom to eat ice cream, but also not have to be sacrificed to sharks to feed the alien demon creature that they are.
Yeah yeah well, I think that sounds perfectly plausible.
In fact it's.
It's not only plausible, it's reasonable.
Wow yeah, because we just said it was exactly that's all.
We are the interpreters of the world.
It's on the internet, isn't it?
Which means that it's like.
You know, some people aren't just going to put bollocks on the internet, aren't there?
There's got to be a grain of truth into it.
Well, sharks do exist.
We didn't make that up.
No, ice cream exists.
Beaches exist yeah, people have seen them.
They're not Just.
They're not just in movies.
You've seen them.
Yeah.
Right.
And nefarious plots exist.
Satanism exists.
All of these things exist.
So who's to say that they don't all exist in the same space in this one theory?
Like, you know, I've not seen anyone debunk this yet, Spencer.
So yeah, clearly.
I mean, to be fair, we did literally just make it up, but like, you know, but that's still a fair argument.