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July 19, 2023 - Tate Speech - Andrew Tate

02:31:31

Cigar Night Q&A with Tristan Tate | Ep.5

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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of the game.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of the game.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of the game.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of the game.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of the game.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of the game.
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	MORE INTROetz This is so weird But at least we have a gtg Nothing more, let's just try Again
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
	So, I'm going to play a little bit of it. So, I'm going to play a little bit of it. So, I'm going to play a little bit of it. So, I'm going to play a little bit of it.
	So, I'm going to play a little bit of it.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this. I'm going to be talking about the game, and I'm going to be talking about the story.
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	So, I'm going to be talking about the game, and I'm going to be talking about the story.
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	So, let's get started.
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	So, I'm going to be talking about the game, and I'm going to be talking about the story.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, let's get started.
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	So, I'm going to be talking about the game, and I'm going So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a walkthrough of this.
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	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
	So, I'm going to be doing a little bit of a commentary on this.
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	Welcome to my show..
	so
	ladies and gentlemen thank you for joining me for another Cigar Night with me, Tristan the Talisman Tate.
	Now, you all know how these work.
	I sit down, I smoke a cigar, I listen to your questions, I go through questions I've been asked earlier on Twitter and on other platforms, and I do my best to give some knowledge and some insight into what it is that you are asking me.
	But today is a slightly different episode because as I smoke this cigar, which I'm going to go into in a moment, I've decided to have a special guest on.
	Our guest is a man who goes by the name of Joey Carbstrong.
	He is a vegan activist, I would say, and a vegan himself.
	It came up on Twitter a while ago.
	I mentioned the fact that I follow people that I disagree with.
	I follow vegans, white supremacists, black supremacists, all sorts of racist accounts.
	And everyone was reprimanding me saying, you can't endorse these people.
	And I said, no, no. I follow people who I have disagreements with because it makes Twitter more interesting.
	And somebody said, why don't you debate Joey Carbstrong on veganism?
	Now, my first reaction was, why would I debate on veganism?
	I didn't understand why anyone wanted to see me debate on veganism because I'm not really that interested in the topic, to be perfectly honest.
	I myself am not a vegan, but I don't really care who is, so I didn't see the need for a debate and I voiced that concern on Twitter.
	And Joey, for all those watching on Rumble, 10,000 of you now, I want to let you know has been very polite and very respectful, but his fans were not.
	His fans obviously attacked me on Twitter, as is the nature of the internet.
	Believe me, my skin's thick enough to put up with it by now.
	And said, oh, you're scared to debate him on veganism.
	You're scared to debate him on veganism.
	And I thought, you know what? One, I'm not scared of talking to anybody about any topic.
	And two, this Joey guy is so...
	Respectful and normal, seemingly.
	Let's have him on the podcast and let's see what he thinks or what he wants me to think or what he wants everyone in the world who eats meat to think.
	So you never know. At the end of this podcast, I may declare myself a vegan.
	I don't know. I've done no debate preparation because veganism isn't something that I study or prepare for.
	To very quickly introduce my cigar, this is a Hoyo de Monterey Double Corona.
	It's about as large as Cuban cigars get.
	So I've gone with a very big Cuban cigar tonight because I don't feel this conversation is going to be over with very quickly.
	And I'm going to put on my headphones in just a second.
	I know you're listening Joey, so I'm going to, when you appear on screen, give you a chance to introduce yourself to everybody, I guess, in my audience who may or may not know who you are.
	Hello.
	Thank you very much, mate.
	It's a great introduction. And like Tristan said, this is going to be a civil discussion.
	I know we're framing, like you might have seen my YouTube thumbnail framing it as a little bit of a debate or whatever.
	Thank you. So, you did your amount of your word, as you said, you know, in your amount of your word.
	You didn't forget. And you even reached out to me.
	It's been like a couple months since, or like at least six, what was it, four weeks since we last chatted?
	Something like that, yeah. So, like, you know what?
	Kudos to you, mate. And, yeah, like, I know people will call on you scared and this and that.
	Oh, you're too scared. But, you know, that's not what I saw from you anyway.
	So, I will just quickly introduce myself if that's cool with you.
	Please, go right ahead. Is it freezing on your end?
	Well, it's not on his end, so it should be alright.
	I hear you. That's great.
	Yeah, so basically, my social media handle is Joey Carbstrong, but I changed my name from Armstrong to Carbstrong after I left gangs, come out of prison.
	Spent about six months in prison for firearms.
	I was on the streets from 14 onwards and got involved in drugs, gangs.
	Then we got into high-level organized crime, outlaw motorcycle gangs in Australia and landed myself in prison.
	I was on house arrest for 20 months.
	And I got 13 months.
	I served about six and got out on parole.
	Part of my parole was not drinking, taking drugs because I didn't want to go back to jail.
	And I was in solitary.
	I spent five days in solitary.
	And I know you've been in prison too, so you know what it's like.
	It's not a fun place.
	I definitely didn't want to go back, that's for sure.
	So I got sober. Part of my sobriety was like...
	Thinking, I don't want to be violent anymore.
	Where am I violent in my life?
	And I had this seed planted about karma and hypocrisy.
	Like, I'd just seen people that were like, save the whales, save the dolphins.
	They were against palm oil because it kills chimpanzees, but they were eating like a cow.
	And I was like... You're a hypocrite, at least I can admit it.
	I'm eating steak right now and I can see the hypocrisy.
	And that's what, like when I got sober and aligned my, sort of got my head clear and I started changing my trajectory in my life, I aligned my actions with my morals and went vegan.
	I've always been outspoken and I've been an outspoken activist ever since.
	So I'm not your typical... Kind of pasty-faced, stereotypical vegan.
	People like to say, I'm actually a bit different to what people perceive as vegans.
	I don't know how people perceive vegans.
	Vegans are from all different walks of life.
	They're just different. Everyone is different.
	I've meat that is a vegan. They're all different.
	I'm an activist. I've been online.
	I've... I've been on different TV shows talking about this.
	I've got about just over, I think, over two to three hundred views talking about this topic across my social media platform.
	Two to three hundred million views.
	Sorry, not two to three hundred million views talking about this topic.
	That would be a failure.
	But yeah, I'm pretty well known on Facebook and things like that.
	But a lot of people don't like me.
	But yeah, we'll see how this conversation goes.
	That's who I am and yeah.
	All right. Well, I mean, my first question to you would be, why me?
	I mean, I know you didn't put your fans up to this, like tweeting underneath my post, etc.
	But why am I the type of person who you thought it would be beneficial to have a veganism debate on?
	Because I truly don't care.
	As of right now, I don't care 1% about any of the issues vegans bring up.
	So why me?
	Well... I've seen your post come up on Twitter.
	So basically, you said that the number one sign of intelligence in 2023 is the ability to disagree on issues and stay civil.
	I'll follow men I disagree with on Twitter.
	I'll sit down and talk to them like, I like opposing points of view.
	I said, come on my YouTube channel and debate veganism.
	And you said, there doesn't need to be debating.
	Eat what you want, I'll do the same, right?
	Well, I don't have an opposing point of view, is my point.
	I'm happy for you to be a vegan.
	My... Go ahead.
	The reason that I thought of you, because it's not the first time I encountered you, actually.
	You're all over social media and you're all mega famous.
	Yeah, I know. Unfortunately. And it's not the first time I talked about veganism either.
	So I responded to a couple of live streams that you and Andrew did.
	And I know Andrew's...
	He's not here, so we're not here to talk about Andrew's views.
	interviews were talking to you. But you know, you did chime in on a couple of times when Andrew was talking about his problems with vegans and vegetarians or people that don't eat meat and how he doesn't respect them and things like that. But then you were talking about the problem with veganism and talking about how vegans not only kill more animals, they also shouldn't expect everyone in the world to be vegan and you talked about the Yeah.
	I see. It was a very small talking point to me.
	And obviously on my last live stream, if anyone saw, I was making a bunch of jokes about Irish people.
	And my Irish friend was sitting here with me.
	So it's not something exclusive that I do to pick on the vegan community.
	I like to have a good laugh at everybody.
	I think that's how we, you know, stay friendly.
	I make jokes about all the things I am, certainly.
	So if the vegan community, you know, obviously watched that and took that personal, then good, because I guess now here you are speaking to me.
	But what's the debate?
	That we could possibly have.
	I see a discussion, but what's the debate?
	Well, it depends.
	It depends on what you think about this topic, because we can get straight into it if you want.
	I thought we might...
	Yeah, I mean, there's plenty to debate here, because you obviously think it's...
	Judging by the way that you live your life, it's completely morally justifiable to...
	Have animals endure a slaughterhouse so they can eat their body.
	So if you believe that, then I don't believe that.
	I believe it's not justifiable.
	I don't think we have any reason, morally justifiable reason, coherent moral reason to do this to these non-human animals.
	And you believe it's totally fine and you don't care.
	So I think that is a point to debate.
	Do you hold any religious beliefs before we start?
	That would be interesting. Or are you an atheist?
	No, I don't. I don't claim to know everything about the universe.
	I'm more agnostic. I don't know, but I do lean towards...
	It's a very bizarre world we live in and it's very hard for me to Come to terms with it being a cosmic accident.
	But at the same time, I've had some spiritual awakenings in my life through my hard journey and violence and pulling myself out of addiction and things like that.
	And I've sometimes felt like someone was watching over me.
	But to say that I'm practicing some kind of religion, I don't think so, no.
	I understand. Because I feel like a lot of the hard lines that people are scared of debating these days, I mean, there's lots of different debates on LGBTQ rights in the community, etc.
	And people who are, for example, Muslims will have their hard lines on it and say, well, my religious belief is this.
	You shouldn't be questioning my religious belief.
	I myself, I'm an Orthodox Christian.
	I believe in Jesus Christ.
	I believe in the Word of the Bible. And the Bible makes it very, very clear that man has dominion over animals.
	It tells us which animals we can and which animals we can't eat.
	And I don't understand how any man could argue with a Christian about that.
	If I say God's word is final, where would you come in and oppose me?
	So would you eat meat because God told you it's okay?
	No, I love meat.
	I absolutely love meat.
	And I don't feel any...
	Any duty towards the animals that are killed for my meat, just like any other predator in the world doesn't.
	I don't believe when a shark eats a seal or eats a human that a shark has done anything morally wrong.
	I don't believe the shark needs to be reprimanded.
	I don't believe the shark is evil.
	So like any meat-eating creature on Earth, I don't feel sad for the prey that I consume.
	And I don't know why I should.
	Well, I mean, we can unpack that for sure.
	I mean, like, first of all, God says it's okay.
	It was written in the Bible, basically, or written in the Word of God that God gave permission to eat certain animals and not others.
	No, I mean, that is in the Bible.
	I'm just saying, how would you counter that argument?
	Because people don't like to go against people's religious hard lines.
	Yeah, I mean, I just want to know what you believe, but I want to know what you believe, Tristan, because there's a lot of people with different beliefs out there, but I want to know, because I'm really interested in, because I've seen, I've been following you, I've been watching, and maybe, I don't know if you've been watching anything that I talk about or whatever, but I've been watching a little bit about...
	I saw you on Piers Morgan. You do care.
	I saw you on Piers Morgan. You do care.
	Yeah, but Piers Morgan pretends like he doesn't care.
	Like, he cares, he thinks he cares about bees and all that sort of shit.
	He doesn't... No one cares about bees.
	I mean, no one cares about bees.
	I... Is it still coming through?
	It's working. I'm seeing no delays here.
	And we're good on my Rumble screen. I lost you after bees.
	I lost you after bees. Yeah, I don't care about bees.
	And I'm not going to pretend that I do care about bees.
	Because, yeah, that would be a bit stupid if I sat here and said, oh, I care so much about bees.
	How can you eat this food?
	That kills bees, etc. I don't care about bees.
	But I don't care about the other animals I eat either.
	Okay. So, okay.
	You said I do care.
	I said you do care about many other issues.
	I said you do care about many other issues.
	You care about human beings and you care about other animals.
	So you're not just a heartless...
	A person who lacks empathy and doesn't give a shit about anything?
	Because I used to be around people like that.
	I used to be around true, cold psychopaths, like in the gang world and that.
	They did not care about anything.
	There was a couple of them, and you just knew they don't care.
	Yes. You've probably been around them too.
	Well, I've never seen that type of person.
	No, and I care very deeply about humanity and other people.
	But I don't think that extends to the animal kingdom.
	You do? Well, I don't know why you would give a bunch of money to a dog charity if you didn't care about non-human animals.
	I love dogs, but if you wanted to eat your dog, I would not have a problem with you eating your dog.
	Would you have a problem with me eating a dog from the charity?
	Well, that would be my dog.
	And I'd have a problem with you coming into my garden and eating from my apple tree, even though they're just apples.
	They're my apples. That tree's in my garden.
	So when people say, oh, would you have a problem with me eating your dog?
	Yes, I'd have a problem with you eating my dog.
	But there are lots of people all over the world that eat dogs all the time.
	I'm not going to tell them not to, and I don't care what they do with their dogs.
	This is a funny talking point because we will get to the predator point, like comparing yourself to a predator in nature as well.
	But I just want to talk about this dog point because you had an interesting back and forth with Elwood's dog meat on Twitter.
	Should we talk about that? Oh, Jesus.
	Yeah, so I'll actually cover this for five seconds first because someone sent me a link to a fake website that allegedly sells dog meat.
	It has a bunch of pictures of cute dogs next to what is clearly steak and sausages.
	And they're saying, we sell this dog meat.
	And someone sent me this As a joke to troll me.
	And I've sent them a message saying, Hi, do you ship internationally?
	I'm interested in buying some dog meat to Romania.
	And I posted a screenshot on the Twitter argument.
	It was a joke, as in, if someone's selling dog meat, I don't care what they do.
	But Elwood's dog meat, and I kind of...
	I wish I hadn't given them the shout out because they sold the story to the newspaper that I genuinely thought they were a dog meat farm and I stupidly was trying to buy dog meat because I'm evil.
	And the newspapers obviously which print anything bad about me printed it.
	And I was like for God's sake I wish I didn't contact those people because it was a joke.
	I wasn't actually trying to buy dog meat from them.
	It's not my meat of choice.
	What would be the problem with that, though?
	Because you said you don't have a problem with people eating animals.
	No, I don't have a problem. People do eat dogs.
	I don't try to shut the farms down.
	There are dog meat festivals in China.
	I'm not going to go to China and tell the Chinese people what to do.
	I don't care that they eat their-
	Matrix attack.
	Happens. Fine.
	Life's good. I'm back in action.
	Alright, good. I am back on screen.
	So let me just get our friend Mr.
	Carbstrong back. As it looks like I'm frantically scrambling on my laptop to get the show back up and running.
	All I'm doing is messaging my tech guy saying, bro, WTF. That's it.
	That's all I'm doing. So we should be good in a moment or two.
	Bear with me. I remember the last question that we were on.
	So I'm going to hopefully pick up where I left off.
	And hopefully no one's too upset about losing four or five minutes.
	I know you've missed me.
	And the cigar has gone down.
	But don't worry, I bought a pack of cigarettes, so if I run out of cigar, I'm still going to stay online and keep this conversation flowing.
	Because that's the way it is.
	And here we go.
	Right, I think I've got you back, do I? Is your mic muted?
	I can't. You're back on my end, mate.
	Good. And you're back here as well.
	You can't hear me? I can hear you perfectly fine.
	That's wonderful. So the question that we just finished is we were talking about the dog meat farm that trolled me and sold the story to the newspaper.
	And I was saying that I don't particularly care if somebody eats their own dog and that the dog meat festivals that happen in China, etc.
	I don't want to go there and stop them from doing it.
	So I guess why should I? Well, why do you?
	You've got a photographic memory, mate.
	That was actually very spot on.
	You held that thought, didn't you?
	Absolutely. Actually, well, it doesn't matter to me whether or not they are my dog or my property or whatever.
	I look at the animal's inherent...
	So it doesn't matter if that human being is my friend.
	It would matter more to me if they were my family.
	Yes, I would attack with violent force if necessary to defend them.
	But it also matters to me what happens to people I don't know.
	So in the same case with dogs, if I've seen someone attacking a dog, being cruel to a dog, then I'm going to probably run up and punch him in the head just as I would if they were my own dog.
	Because I'd be like, what are you doing and what reason do you have to do that?
	When you talk about other cultures doing something horrible to animals, it doesn't matter to me that it's their culture.
	It doesn't justify doing something bad just because it's your culture.
	There are good things about certain cultures.
	There are also bad things about certain cultures and it doesn't morally justify an action just because it's cultural or whatever.
	So my question to you is, do you only care about...
	Because I asked you about the dog charity.
	Not every dog at that charity is your dog.
	True? Well, that's true, but I completely finance it and the dogs are rescued from the streets.
	And you're saying, like, doing cruel things to animals.
	Just because I eat meat doesn't mean that I advocate animal cruelty for no reason.
	You see, I know it's cruel.
	I know factory farms are cruel.
	I know where my chickens come from.
	I know where my beef comes from.
	I'm not a stupid person.
	I've killed animals myself.
	I've killed pigs with knives, in fact, on a part of a reality TV show.
	So I'm not a coward. I know exactly where my food comes from.
	But to say about animal cruelty for no reason, to add that into the mix, I think is a bit disingenuous because I'm not talking about kicking dogs.
	I'm talking about the charity that I run prevents animal cruelty because it prevents animals from being on the street.
	But that is not the same as people who run dog meat farms raising dogs for meat because I understand what they're raising those dogs for.
	And they're perfectly entitled to do that.
	I can try to reduce cruelty.
	But I think cruelty is completely justified, completely, when it comes to getting fed.
	I think that the shark that could bite me in half is totally justified to bite me in half.
	The shark committed no moral evil, even if it bit me.
	What am I doing in the ocean anyway?
	Yeah, you should stay out of the ocean.
	I'm a big advocate for staying out of the ocean when the shark's around, that's for sure.
	That's because I'm half black and black people hate the ocean.
	I just inherited it from there, I think.
	I stay clear of the ocean, but I think what you're...
	Look, what you're talking about here is...
	So basically, you're making the point, you're saying that...
	If you're going to eat the animal, basically, you can do whatever you want to them?
	Is that what your position is?
	No. Not whatever you want.
	Why would that be my position?
	I don't think you should cut their arms and legs off while they're alive.
	I mean, killing something is never going to be not cool.
	Why would you care? Why would you care?
	I genuinely, if somebody was raising an animal for food, let's say a chicken, and cut its wings off when it was alive, I honestly wouldn't care that much about the chicken.
	I'm going to be honest. I'm not going to pretend that I would care.
	I do think it's unnecessary.
	I wouldn't do it.
	But you can't kill something in a non-cruel way.
	Killing something is always cruel.
	So you have to see cruelty as justifiable if you're going to eat meat.
	Wouldn't you agree with that at least?
	Well, there's something called the welfare movement, and there's two sides of this story here.
	There's obviously factory farming, which most people agree is bad, but they mostly support it through their consumer habits.
	Do you think factory farming is bad?
	No. I think it's a miracle that we can have 7 billion, 8 billion people on a planet, and we can all feed them.
	And anywhere in the world I go, anywhere on Earth I go, if I want a steak or a chicken breast or some eggs, I can get hold of them.
	I think the food supply chain that humans have built and constructed in order to raise this great civilization is incredible.
	And I know that involves factory farms, so no, I don't think factory farms are unjustifiable in any way.
	Are they cruel? Maybe. But I don't care.
	I think it's an amazing feat of human ingenuity.
	Okay, I think I'm getting closer here to your position here.
	Just forgive me here if I don't want to come across as rude or anything like that, but before I thought you said factory farming is cruel.
	Yeah, and cruelty can be justified.
	Cruelty can be justified if you're going to eat the animal is what your position is, yeah?
	Yeah. Well, let's just unpack it, because if we can't even agree that being cruel to animals is bad, then we won't really have to talk about animal rights, which is what I advocate for.
	I advocate for the rights of the animal, their right to life.
	Say, if you shot a human in the back of the head, that's murder.
	You've basically taken away their right to exist.
	You've violated their rights. To a human, yes.
	If you've caused them suffering or not, shooting someone in the head, if they didn't feel it, is murder, yeah?
	Yeah. Shooting a person in the head is murder, yeah.
	Thou shall not kill. And you violated their human rights, haven't you?
	You violated their right to life, essentially, yeah?
	Yeah, I mean, the Human Rights Act is a very real thing.
	There was no Human Rights Act up until the 1960s, is it?
	I think the European Union came up with it.
	But no, I don't think that animals get the same rights as humans.
	No way. Absolutely not.
	Okay. Well, what I'm saying is we don't even really need to talk about animal rights right now.
	We can just talk about animal cruelty, which is different.
	It's their welfare, which is, you know, like the people that believe you can be kind to an animal before you kill them.
	But you're taking the position that factory farming is like a great invention.
	And it's like amazing that we can feed 8 billion people, 80 billion animals that are suffering these horrible sheds.
	Yes. Because I'm actually, I don't know if you know about this, but I investigate these farms constantly in the UK. We do a lot of investigations and exposés.
	I saw your video about the pigs in gas chambers.
	There we go. So that's free-range pigs go to this gas chamber.
	So do I think that's wrong?
	Do you think it's wrong that they suffer for 30 seconds to a minute in a dungeon filled with gas and in their own feces screaming for mercy?
	No, I actually don't.
	I don't care at all. I think that there's no kind way of killing something and killing something is necessary to keep up the meat production of the world.
	So I think it's perfectly fine.
	Obviously, it'd be nice if you could click your fingers and they just completely drop out of consciousness.
	There is a way of killing things that was 100% harmless or pleasurable.
	That would be preferable, I guess, but there isn't.
	I don't want to be killed. Do you?
	No, I don't want to be murdered. I don't want to suffer in a gas chamber.
	But I like to eat bacon and somebody has to kill the pigs.
	But it's a reality of eating meat.
	It is a reality.
	But to say you don't care at all about these animals suffering to death in this gas chamber seems a bit like you're lacking empathy that most of the population would have.
	I mean, it's a pig.
	It was raised for a reason. And also my position is this, on pigs and cows and dogs, on all these things.
	There's not a single farm animal, almost.
	There's not a single farm animal which exists exactly as it is on the farm out in nature.
	All of these things were produced by humans.
	Pigs in nature, I've seen them.
	They're short and fucking muscly and brown and hairy and they've got tusks and they're fast and they're dangerous.
	The big fat lazy pink pigs exist because we bred them to be that way.
	Every single form of cattle, every single form is descendant of the European oryx, which has been extinct for over 400 something years.
	Humans have created these animals through selective breeding.
	In fact, if you wanted to make an argument not to eat dogs...
	I'd understand it a bit more than cows and pigs because dogs were selectively bred by people, but not for food.
	Dogs were selectively bred by people to be hunters and to be retrievers.
	That's why they still have these names today.
	But if someone wants to eat a dog, I still don't care.
	And you have to understand, and everyone has to understand, that all these pigs weren't just wandering around the countryside when we decided to show up and kill them.
	They were specifically bred for that purpose.
	It's why they get so fat so fast.
	It's why you can feed them almost anything and they put on body mass.
	So yeah, the unfortunate last 30 seconds of a pig's life, where it suffers in a gas chamber, is completely fine with me.
	It really is, because that's how it goes from farm to table.
	There's no happy way of doing it.
	Okay, yeah, I mean, like, for me, if they didn't suffer in a gas chamber, it's wrong to murder them.
	Like, for me, similar to murdering a human being.
	But we can talk about...
	So how should we murder them?
	Well, I don't think we should murder them.
	I don't think it's morally justifiable because I've been vegan for 10 years and haven't had to stab an animal in the throat yet since I've been vegan.
	I stabbed it in the chest, for the record.
	I've seen you. I know that you're on Shipwrecked and you were advocating for killing the animals on the island.
	I did kill them. Now, you're not on an island now.
	You're actually multi-millionaire and you can eat whatever you want.
	You've got personal chefs, but you still choose to...
	Obviously, you don't need to eat animals, do you?
	Do you believe you need to? You just said that it's tasty.
	You want to. Yeah, well, I want to.
	And I understand that in today's society with supermarkets and all the miracles that you guys talk about, that you can exist on a vegan diet.
	So that means I could, right?
	Because I live in the 21st century.
	I live here in a first world country with supermarkets and food you can buy everywhere.
	So yeah, I'm not one of the Maasai people of Africa.
	I'm not a hunter-gatherer.
	I'm not one of the people who lives in southern Gujarat in India who has to depend on fish.
	I understand that I have a choice of what I can eat.
	I understand that. And I eat meat, and that's the way it is.
	I like meat, and I don't see anything wrong with meat, and I don't care that the animals have to die because it's just an unfortunate part of being part of the food chain.
	Just as a shark or a crocodile or a polar bear wouldn't care if it was eating me or my child.
	It wouldn't care. And as much as I'd be a bad parent if I let my daughter get near a polar bear, I could not argue the polar bear did anything morally wrong by eating a person.
	I don't think you can.
	Would you shoot the polar bear to protect your daughter?
	I'd shoot a polar bear to eat it, given half a chance.
	Yeah, but I'm saying, would you shoot, you would obviously, if your human was about to be eaten by, like, a polar bear, would you shoot the polar bear to protect the human being?
	Say you didn't know the human. I'd shoot a human to protect another human into the right circumstances.
	Me too. People do it all the time. Me too.
	Yeah. Me too.
	100%. I would use lethal force to protect someone's life.
	Absolutely. 100%.
	And my family's or whatever. Someone is a person.
	I'm not against killing. I'm not against killing, like, per se.
	I believe killing can be justified in certain situations, right?
	What I am against.
	What I am against is innocent beings being enslaved and decapitated so I can eat a piece of their body.
	That there I don't think is justified.
	So there's a difference between justifiable killing to protect self-defense, things like this, and unjustifiable killing for a bacon sandwich, a bit of taste pleasure or whatever.
	I don't make that difference at all.
	I can't make that distinction.
	And I certainly don't.
	I certainly don't.
	Put animal lives and human lives on the exact same plane of importance at all.
	Do you think that pigs and cows are as important as people?
	Do you feel their lives are worth as much as a person's life?
	Well, what we could do is we could do a little...
	It's like a logical consistency test, and it's for this exact topic what you're bringing up right now.
	Is it a word trap?
	I'm ready if it is, but go ahead.
	It's not a word trap. It's just basically, we share a common, like, morally relevant trait with animals, and it's our conscious experience.
	Now, you could say that we have more intelligence in animals, of course.
	Especially, we could use a pig, for example.
	Pigs are more intelligent than dogs, okay?
	We know that scientifically, or they're at least comparable, and in some studies, dogs do better, but they're about on par or better in certain studies.
	Pigs taste better. Let's say we have a...
	Is there something about animals, right?
	When you look at, say, a pig, is there something about that pig that...
	Obviously, I don't think you would agree with putting human beings in gas chambers to eat them for bacon, yeah?
	You make a distinction. Well, of course I wouldn't.
	Why would I want to eat a human being?
	In fact, if you give me 60 seconds, let me tell you something that humans and animals have in common.
	It's a very basic concept that almost every animal in the world has in common, besides like octopus and a few others.
	It's called the preservation of one's own species.
	So if you take a piranha, a tiny little angry fish with a brain the size of a pea, you put any piece of meat or a human or a horse or a dog or a pig into that pond and it's bleeding, the piranhas are going to rip it apart.
	But piranhas don't eat other piranhas, no species survives if it does.
	The preservation of one's own species is more important than the preservation of other species, that's why lions don't hunt and eat other lions, that's why they eat other things.
	So if you want to talk about traits that we have in common, then I as a human saying, yeah, screw the pig, I'm going to eat him, and I'm not going to kill and eat other humans, Bye.
	There's something that we have in common with every other species.
	Because I'm not interested in killing or eating humans, and I don't think killing humans is right almost ever.
	There's almost no justifiable reason to murder somebody or to be cruel to somebody.
	But pigs, I simply don't care about humans.
	The human species murder each other all the time.
	Humans are some of the most sick, evil animal on Earth.
	We find the most creative ways to torture and murder each other.
	We murder each other en masse, murder children.
	Human beings are not some amazing species, moral species.
	I mean, we created morality.
	We can act morally.
	God created morality, my friend, and humans know it's wrong.
	And if a human doesn't know it's wrong, then we can argue that there's something wrong with that human.
	He is a defective person.
	I just would like to stick, if we can, if we may, I would like to stick on this point about humans and animals.
	You have a separator here.
	You wouldn't want to see humans factory farmed and put in these places.
	So there's got to be something, a trait that's different.
	And now, are you saying that the trait that separates humans and animals, it's like a morally relevant trait that we possess, that the animals do not possess.
	Yeah, it's that they're not humans.
	I care about the preservation of my own species because I'm not a psychopath.
	Whereas a pig is not a human, and I'm not interested in the preservation of pigs.
	What do you mean by species?
	What do you mean by human?
	We are human. Is it something about our DNA or something like that?
	A multitude of factors.
	Is it because we are more intelligent and it's our DNA? I just want to find out what these differences are.
	Well, as somebody who doesn't believe in God, I'll speak in your language.
	Because if somebody who doesn't believe in God, they will say that every species evolved independently in and of itself and humans are...
	Yeah, it is our DNA. It's the fact that I can mate with another human and create another human.
	Everyone knows what a human is, but I would say a human...
	Is made in the image of God.
	That's what I would say. And a pig is not made in the image of God.
	It certainly is not made in the image of God.
	Neither is a cow. In fact, cows and pigs are made in the image of what humans made them into.
	So as a religious person, there's no argument you could possibly give me to see any lower life form or any animal besides a human as equal to a human because animals aren't made in the image of God.
	So, if there were a species of human being that, or beings that look exactly like us, weren't made in God's image, and they shared, like, all of our morally relevant traits, like the consciousness experience, they could experience the same level and depth of suffering as us, except they weren't made in the image of God, but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being, like, you know, so we were made in the image of God, and there's a group that aren't.
	Let's just say they evolved separately from us.
	Sure. Let me finish my point and then I'll let you go.
	But I was just wondering, is it okay to do to them what we do to animals because they're not made in the image of God and you wouldn't be able to tell us apart, really?
	If I'm correct, isn't an octopus an insanely intelligent animal with a very complicated nervous system that feels pain and emotions just like humans do?
	Am I correct in that? I think that's true.
	They're also delicious, and I don't care about an octopus.
	So if that answers your question, then that answers your question.
	Well, it doesn't really.
	I'm just trying to figure out. So basically, because humans are made in the image of God, we can't do to humans what we do to animals.
	Nope, because the commandments of God, when they say thou shall not kill, talks about other human beings.
	It does not speak about animals.
	It doesn't say that. It's just thou shalt not murder, doesn't it?
	Thou shalt not kill. It doesn't say thou shalt not.
	Well, it says thou shalt not kill, but then in Leviticus chapter 11, it tells you which animals you can eat and which animals you can't.
	And the Islamic holy book tells you exactly how to slaughter them and which animals you can eat and which animals you can't.
	Does it say anything about not eating dogs?
	In Islam they do, but I don't think in Christianity they mention how much animals.
	Leviticus chapter 11, I believe, is a differentiation between what the animal eats and what its hoof shape is.
	Obviously this was written a very long time ago.
	If someone in the chat wants to correct me or look this up, I believe it says if it has a hoof that's split in half and chews of the cud, you can eat it, which does not refer to camels, but it refers to basically every other livestock animal that we have today.
	I've read the Bible many times.
	Yeah, and these animals are selectively bred by humans and they're kept in factory farms and put under immense...
	Okay, look, if you're saying because we are created in God's image, and we can't actually prove that, can we?
	That's a faith. We have to have faith in that, yeah?
	You have to have faith.
	It's like a belief that you have that no one can actually verify or disprove is what I'm like.
	I can't really say, well, no, we weren't.
	You just say, well, yes, we were.
	We could never get to a point.
	We could go on indefinitely with this because you could say something to me like, Oh, we shouldn't kill and eat pigs because it's cruel.
	And I could say, yes, we should and no, it's not cruel.
	But I don't try to redact the arguments down to such a basic level.
	I like to try to give a little bit of nuance and try to inject my knowledge into the situation a little bit more.
	But no, I don't think any argument can be made that animal lives are as important as human lives.
	And if you really, truly believe that, if you really, truly, in your heart believe that an animal life is as important as a human life, then I believe that there is something, and I don't mean this in an offensive way.
	Let's talk about someone else. Let's talk about a third party.
	This guy believes that animal lives and human lives, because it's sentient, are all exactly of equal value.
	Then that person is less intelligent than a piranha.
	Or a shark. Because piranhas don't think that piranha lives are less important than the other animals' lives.
	And the preservation of your own species is something innate in all of us, in almost every creature that lives.
	So if you want to say that you're less intelligent than a piranha and you believe that a pig's life or a chicken's life or a cow's life or a lamb's life is exactly as important as yours or mine or my kids or your kids, I don't believe that you really think that.
	Well, it depends on who the person is, really.
	Because if you're talking about a piece of shit, then I don't see them as any more worthy than a fly.
	Yeah, of course. If you're talking about a person, they try their best.
	In general. A child.
	Like me, if you met me 10 years ago, you probably thought, bloody, he's a lost hope.
	But I turned my life around now, I try to do good in the world, and I try to leave a positive mark on the world.
	And I have to say, your story, sorry to digress a little bit, I didn't know anything about you.
	Your story's actually pretty cool.
	So, you know, just because you're a vegan, and I disagree with you, and I don't give a shit about animals, doesn't mean that I can't tell the 27, 28, I haven't refreshed it, 30-something thousand people watching on my audience, that your story of being a gangbanger and a piece of shit and a criminal and turning it all around isn't inspirational.
	So, I know that's off-topic, and I'm not trying to throw you off, but actually, well done to you, because...
	A lot of people, and I've met a lot of them, don't end up where you are today, given those circumstances.
	Most of my friends are still in jail.
	I appreciate that. Thank you very much.
	I appreciate you saying that. Well, I didn't know it until you introduced yourself.
	I literally didn't even know. Okay, well, thank you very much.
	I've been very transparent about my past, as transparent as I can be, and a lot of my friends are still either in prison on drugs or in gangs, so a lot of people don't make it out of that world, so thank you.
	But I am trying to do right, but this is something that I really care about.
	I've been in violent situations.
	I've been targeted.
	I've been held hostage at gunpoint.
	I've been beaten, bashed.
	I know what it's like to be a victim.
	I've also victimized people, and I think that they're both...
	It's wrong. They're wrong to do.
	I know you're making a distinction between humans and animals, but if I saw someone back then, let me ask you this.
	If I was being cruel to a dog in front of you, say I had a hot iron and I was putting it in their eye and they were squealing and that, you would just feel nothing?
	No, if you're working at a dog factory, killing the dog so you can eat it, I would not care, because it's your dog, your farm, your business, your factory, your life.
	I'm a free market capitalist, and if you're a producer of dog meat, all well and good.
	If I saw you torturing anything for any reason, I'd say, well, what's the point in that?
	What's the benefit? Are you providing anyone with a meal?
	Are you providing anyone with food, sustenance?
	No, you're just being a dick.
	So yeah, I would have a go at someone...
	Well, let's just say that I have plant-based food available to me.
	There's plenty of plant-based food available to me.
	I'm torturing them because- Because you want to eat them?
	Because I just made the choice to over the plant-based food.
	I'm deciding I want to torture them to eat them because it's basically just a flippant choice.
	I could eat plant food, but I don't really like it as much.
	I like torturing animals and eating them.
	I mean, I love vegetables, but I also love eating meat.
	And that's how free market capitalism works.
	You see, Joey, I think a lot of people like you, and I don't mean to offend you, they think that they can educate somebody like me.
	They think I'm some big dumb thug, and they think that...
	I don't know where my food comes from.
	And they think they're going to show me videos of certain factory farms and talk to me of the processes in which chickens lay eggs and the cages they're kept in.
	And I'm going to go, oh my God, this is wrong.
	But that's not the way I'm programmed.
	If I was super interested in feudal Japanese history...
	And I went to all the feudal Japanese history conventions and spoke about it in every conversation when I got drunk with my friends, which I tend to do.
	And you looked at me and said, Tristan, I just don't give a shit about feudal Japanese history.
	I don't care. It's not an issue I care about.
	I don't want to learn about it.
	I don't want to know about it. I'd say, you know what?
	Good for you. Veganism is one of these things that you believe you could actually convince somebody like me because you think you can open my eyes.
	My eyes are wide open.
	One of my friends is in this house right now.
	I used to work at a slaughterhouse. My eyes are open.
	I know exactly where my food comes from.
	And I do not value the lives of cattle and animals produced for food.
	I just don't. I value them in the way that they provide sustenance for people to eat.
	I actually run a charity which provides food for children in war-torn countries.
	TatePledge.com if anyone wants to check it out.
	And I don't give a shit If it's beef or if it's corn, as long as people are eating.
	That's the way that I think about things.
	So you can't really open my eyes to this, because I don't think there's many things you know that I am ignorant of.
	Well, I mean, I don't think you've ever been inside of these places, have you?
	I've been inside of pig farms and chicken farms.
	I've never been inside of a cattle farm, no.
	Not myself. I've seen you on a pig farm, backyard pig farm or something in Romania, like with one or two pigs there.
	Well, no, no, that wasn't a pig farm.
	I've been inside a real pig farm in England when I was younger.
	A factory? Yeah. A factory pig farm?
	Yeah, I was doing delivery drives with some guy.
	So I've been inside.
	But again, I've seen all the videos.
	I've seen all the images. I've killed pigs myself.
	I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not one of these people.
	You know what? Shout out to this guy.
	He probably doesn't remember me. There was a guy on the island with me when I was in that reality TV show.
	And some people said, I'm not going to kill the pig.
	I'm not going to eat the pig. And some people said, I'm going to actively take part in the killing of the pig and I'm going to eat the pig.
	Obviously, the killing was done by me because I was the one of the producers most trusted as the most competent person on the island.
	But there was one or two people there who said, you know what?
	I don't want to be around when the pig is killed.
	I don't want to be around when we have to strip it and gut it and cut off its skin.
	But I am going to eat it.
	And I think we could both agree that that's hypocritical.
	If they're going to eat it.
	You need to know the reality of where your food comes from.
	One is displaying normal human emotion.
	You're displaying something that is close to, I would say, people who tend to not care about the suffering of animals.
	You don't take pleasure in cruelty to animals, do you?
	Really? Is that a serious question?
	It is a serious question because most people don't have your position that they don't care how cruel someone is to animals.
	I could do anything to animals as long as I'm going to eat them.
	That is not my position. I think if you're going to kill animals, you should kill them in the most humane way possible.
	I said there is no killing of an animal without cruelty.
	Yeah, yeah. Okay, philosophically, yes, if you believe it's cruel to kill, like without suffering, like the act of killing is cruel in and of itself because you're robbing them of their life.
	Absolutely. So it justifies it because you're eating it.
	But you also said factory farming is an amazing invention, even though it's just basically an infinite suffering machine that's like dead birds dying on their faces and pigs suffering to death on the floor of their own, like laying in their own feces, like mothers like stuck in cages and like piglets being smacked on the ground and then like their heads...
	Like, on the concrete.
	Like, horrible places here.
	I know. You say mothers, though, but I feel like the language you use is trying to get some sort of emotional response.
	Mothers. I have a mother. You have a mother.
	There's the mother of my children who I care deeply about.
	It's a chicken. And I do...
	Yeah. Well, it's a pig.
	It's a cow. Yeah.
	But it's a wonderful, wonderful system that anywhere I go in the world, I can ask for a plate of chicken and somebody can get me chicken and cook it for me and put it on my plate.
	Now, factory farming plays a massive role in that, whether anyone likes it or not.
	So it is very impressive.
	Back when my parents were growing up, you had seasonal vegetables.
	You couldn't even get oranges in the winter.
	And now, any time of any year in any city in the civilized world, I can get a steak.
	I eat steak every day. I think that's a beautiful thing.
	Now, I understand that factory farms are a part of this system.
	When I say the system is incredibly impressive because I can eat steak whenever I like, that doesn't mean I'm going to sit at a factory farm and get my dick out and get off on the fact that all these cows are being tortured.
	I'm not a sadistic person, but I understand that it's part of the system, the wonderful system of global food supply.
	And I love steak.
	So would I abolish factory farms?
	No. Sorry to interrupt you.
	I mean, I just was, I'm just actually very surprised that you know so much about the industry.
	Like, if you know as much as I know.
	Yes. And you're calling it wonderful because it's like something like, you know, I've been in some pretty horrible situations and I've seen some pretty horrible, like, videos, like, but when I... Became an investigator and seen what goes on in these places.
	It is some of the most disgusting, vile, horrific violence and cruelty and stench of corpses.
	They die in their own feces, these animals.
	These chickens are six weeks old.
	They grow so quick.
	Sorry, they just grow so quickly that they break their own legs and they lay there suffering to death, like millions of birds die before they even get to the slaughterhouse.
	And to call that wonderful just seems like maybe you just think the technology is wonderful or something, but inside there, if you've seen all the footage, I don't know how wonderful can come to your mind.
	And most people that I've ever spoken to, and they've actually done research on this, they've done massive polls, most people are against factory farming.
	Yeah, they say they are.
	And then people talk about, oh, you have to get rid of farming because of climate change.
	Yeah, let's get rid of all the farms.
	That's a wonderful idea. And I know you're going to say, well, we could grow a bunch of beans, but I don't want to eat beans, and I don't want to eat crickets, and I don't want to eat plant-based food.
	I want to eat meat, and factory farms are part of the supply chain.
	It's not that a factory farm itself is beautiful.
	You have to understand these are all intricate wheels in a system which gives people the ability to have whatever food they like on whatever plate they like in whatever city they like globally.
	So I find that impressive.
	That's an impressive feat of human ingenuity.
	And to take that argument and say, oh, Tristan's the kind of guy who loves factory farms and thinks they're beautiful is actually not what I said.
	One. And two, my next question would be, did you think that I don't know stuff before you spoke to me?
	Because you seem surprised. I know a lot.
	Do people think I'm stupid?
	I don't get it. Some people do.
	No, I don't think you're stupid.
	I think you're very bright and I think you've been well-educated and you speak very coherently and you have a higher intelligence than a lot of people that I speak to.
	And every pig and every cow.
	What I do come across, though, is people who think they know about what goes on, but have just seen a few videos here and there.
	But maybe just being there in that visceral stench and hearing the murmuring of the animals and seeing them dying on their faces might pull you off of the position that this is just a wonderful invention where I get to have meat wherever I want in the country.
	Zero percent. In the world.
	And zero percent. No, I understand the realities of where my food comes from.
	And I think a lot of people do.
	That's my point about the...
	I think a lot of people do.
	I think that a lot of people watching right now are going to learn a thing or two.
	And I don't think anyone who listens to me and follows me is going to think, oh, I better convert to veganism.
	I believe that you can be a vegan if you like.
	I don't mind if you're a vegan.
	But you mind if I eat meat.
	Exactly. And I'll tell you why.
	It's not because I'm trying to control people or whatever.
	People think that I want to control.
	Oh, why do you care what I eat?
	I see this a lot. Vegans are trying to control what I eat.
	They're weirdos. Like people think veganism is some diet.
	Like it's just a diet, you know, like I choose to be carnivore.
	You can be whole foods.
	You can have a raw diet.
	And I choose to be a vegan.
	Like it's a diet choice. It's actually, we care what people consume because on the other end of that, animals are being raised, mutilated, um, cause that This is factory farming suffering and then they are murdered in like a gas chamber or a slaughterhouse filled with blood in order to meet that demand.
	So people are collectively making up that demand and so we are trying to stop people from making up that demand so the animals can stop being bred into infinite torture and then murder.
	Well, some people never will because we understand that very well and I think that Yeah.
	Let's move on to something that we might agree on because I think that you've got your points across.
	And this is what I meant, by the way, when I said it's not going to be much of a debate because I don't really have anything to say, oh, you shouldn't be vegan and you shouldn't preach it because X, Y, Z and, you know, factory farming is 100% great and there's no suffering involved.
	I'm not one of those people.
	I understand reality.
	This is why I don't think there was ever much of a debate to be had in the first place.
	Because I'm just one of those people who understands the world exceptionally well.
	I understand where my food comes exceptionally well.
	I think that is acceptable for it to be this way.
	And that's just the way it is.
	So let's change subject. Because I think you're going to like this one.
	Let's talk about trophy hunting.
	Because I think we'll find a lot more common ground with trophy hunting than with the food that I eat.
	Because I'm never going to agree with you that I care at all about how a chicken is treated.
	I just won't. But we can move on and maybe we can be friends again.
	Well, yeah, we can move on.
	We can. Or take me back.
	We can talk about trophy hunting.
	I really want to just ask you this.
	I can do whatever I want to a bird, a chicken.
	I can grab a chicken...
	I can slowly pluck their feathers out and they can be screaming.
	I can burn them and singe them.
	And then I can do that to 10,000 chickens, one after the other, in just this infinite loop of torture, right?
	I can just do that continuously.
	And all you have to do is move your hand over a button to stop it.
	Would you do that, just stop that suffering, or you just don't care even that much?
	You could just push a button and I'd stop.
	Well, one, you couldn't do that to my chickens, because if I had chickens, they live in my garden, etc., and I just cut their heads off.
	In fact, when I killed chickens before, I broke their necks and cut their heads off.
	That's what I did. I took no pleasure in torturing animals.
	I think that anyone who takes pleasure in torturing anything, there's probably something a little bit wrong with them.
	Who cares?
	I genuinely don't care that much as a chicken.
	You don't eat KFC for health, though, do you?
	You eat KFC for pleasure.
	Yeah, KFC. We can talk about protein in that, but you eat KFC for pleasure, don't you?
	I do. You choose KFC for pleasure.
	Absolutely. So how is eating KFC for pleasure different to what I'm doing for pleasure?
	Say I got pleasure out of torturing these animals.
	It gave me sensory pleasure.
	I really like them squealing or whatever.
	You really like the taste of KFC, and these animals are suffering in horrible factory farms in order to bring you that KFC. How is what you're doing any different to what I'm doing?
	Let me restructure your question.
	If I could push a button and stop it, and by stopping it, it means you just take a big butcher's knife and cut the chicken's heads off.
	Then I would push that button, because why would I want anything to be tortured?
	I don't see the point in it.
	But if you were just raising them in cages, as a lot of places in Africa, and a lot of places in Argentina, and all the places where our meat comes from in the world, where they try to raise animals as many as they can, as fast as they can, and as small a space as they can, these people who are very hard-working people, I think we'll all agree, who are trying to make their living, who if you shut down their factory farm probably wouldn't have much else to do, who are taking these chickens and treating them carelessly, and if they're killing them in a relatively humane way,
	I mean, Islam gives a guide on how to kill animals, and I know everyone's like, oh, that's cruel because it's with a knife.
	Well, there were no bolt guns invented in the time of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
	So the guidance is actually very, very good.
	Don't let the animals see the knife, etc.
	There's nobody on earth who would choose having the animal tortured as opposed to killed as humanely as possible.
	But if you were running a factory farm and you were a Chinese man in Wuhan and you were sick of your life and you were cruelly kicking your chickens all day and whipping them, I wouldn't come to your farm and tell you how to run your chicken farm.
	And I would probably still buy your chicken.
	I don't put the lives of chickens.
	You would fund me. If I was torturing the chickens, you would go, here, mate, here's 20 bucks, give us a couple of those chickens, and you'd keep me in business.
	How cheap are they? Just about an average bucket of chickens.
	I don't care about chickens.
	I don't care about chickens.
	They suffer the same as other animals, is what I'm saying.
	They have a brain, a functioning nervous system.
	They feel they want to avoid pain.
	Of course they do. They are sentient beings.
	Of course they do. Yes. I just don't see them any different to any other bird or any other animal.
	I don't know why you make a distinction between a pig and a dog.
	These are both animals who are having a subjective experience.
	If you can't make that distinction over the example I gave you earlier about every single life form that is farmed on a farm being created by humans and selectively bred for a reason...
	And that dogs were bred to be your friend, provide companionship, go hunting with, and pigs were bred to get as big as possible, as fast as possible, so we can kill them.
	If you really can't see the distinction between a pig and a dog, that's okay.
	Because if people eat dogs, I don't care that they eat dogs.
	I'm not going to eat my dog.
	I like my dog. My dog is my friend.
	I don't care if a pig is smart.
	If I had a pig, it would be for food.
	But I don't eat pork anyway.
	We're just using pigs as an example.
	But I'd happily eat a cow and kill a cow.
	I have no problem with that.
	And nobody is ever going to change my mind.
	I think that this is the attitude that a lot of vegans don't really know exists out there in the world.
	Between the millions and millions of people who they think they can convince with some slaughterhouse video, we don't care about chickens.
	We don't care. We eat them.
	That's what they're for. The people that...
	I know you keep saying you don't care.
	I mean, obviously, if you did care, it would be extremely hard to continue that behaviour.
	Because when I was in gangs, for example, we had to not care about the enemy.
	And if you did start to care about the enemy, you couldn't really do what you had to do.
	So you had to put this shield up.
	And this shield helped you get through what you had to get through.
	If you started caring, basically you couldn't be a very good person in the gang world, you couldn't be a very good soldier if you always cared, but you have to actually have this feeling of not caring for these animals, knowing that they suffer and they're harmed and they're slaughtered and all this stuff.
	If you did care, you wouldn't be able to eat the animals, and I do care, and there's probably a bunch of people watching this who actually...
	So if they do, if someone who is what, I'm not, obviously you're not to be convinced of this, but if there's people that are watching who do care about the experiences of other animals and do see them as, you know, valuable in their own right because they have a conscious experience, then those people shouldn't be consuming animal products, right? The ones who do care.
	Um... No, no.
	I believe that we live in a modern world and the world is completely detached.
	Unfortunately, the supply and demand world and the way that we get our products is entirely detached from the system that creates them.
	I believe if someone actually really likes chickens and wouldn't harm a chicken themselves and they continue to want to eat chicken...
	That doesn't bother me at all.
	Just in the way that if you're wearing a pair of Nike sneakers and you don't care that some child in China sold them or you use an iPhone and you don't care about the appalling conditions at the iPhone factories and you continue to use your iPhone, yeah, you'd rather not.
	You'd rather it be made by happy, smart people getting paid $400 an hour.
	I'm sure you would. So would I. But the world of supply and demand, this isn't communism.
	The state doesn't produce everything.
	We live in a world of competition and things are produced in the way that they're produced so everyone can get their hands on everything.
	And it's a beautiful system if you have enough money.
	So, no, I would not tell people who care about chickens to stop eating chicken, to answer your question.
	Okay, you'd just say you can care about chickens and do what happens to them in order to get KFC, and those things, they're in harmony.
	Caring about chickens and buying KFC are in harmony?
	Yeah. I think it's a complete contradiction.
	You can't care about...
	Even for you, Tristan, you can't care about animals being tortured while you're paying for their torture.
	I buy a lot of alligator skin shoes.
	I know how cruel those alligator farms are.
	Yeah, and that's nothing to do with food.
	Wait a second, brother.
	That is a very good point, actually, because you wear cows as well, which has nothing to do with eating.
	I do wear cows. Well, it's a human utility.
	Everyone needs leather. Yeah, but it's interesting.
	We don't need leather.
	Obviously, there are other fabrics.
	There are synthetic fabrics today, but they haven't existed for very long.
	And you know that. Yeah, but they exist now.
	But my question to you is because I'm not trying to do a gotcha or anything, but this is actually just a bit different.
	Because I said food, if you're going to eat them.
	No, you said it's fine to be as cruel as you basically want, so long as you're getting food from these animals, right?
	And I'm not misinterpreting what you said.
	So the shoes made out of, say, cow's skin.
	Or alligator leather. That's not food.
	That's their skin. True.
	Yeah, well, we're using the end product.
	We raise the cow to be an end product.
	So I did say food, but this isn't a gotcha moment because if you want to kill, because the cows that are killed for leather aren't eaten.
	Everyone knows that. It's too expensive to raise them.
	It's too expensive to raise the cows with the high quality hides.
	You have to have them at certain elevations to make the car seats in, for example, a Bugatti or a Rolls Royce.
	And they don't eat the meat because it's not financially viable to cart them off and then chop them up because it's too cheap.
	I mean, they usually don't eat the meat.
	Let's say the cows are completely discarded.
	Yeah, fine. You raised a cow for leather.
	It's fine to kill white cows for their skin.
	100%. And in India where they trek them across like long treks and they're suffering and then they export that leather, it's fine to buy that leather, just animals suffering like really horrible lives just for leather, yeah?
	Yes. And when calves are skinned and like little calves are skinned for their calf skin, that's fine too, baby cows, just to wear them.
	Yes. Even though there's like other options available, that's all cool.
	I mean, there are other options available, but I don't think you have a pair of shoes as cool as my alligator skin shoes.
	I think my shoes are better than your shoes.
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer had a pretty nice human skin shoes.
	I wouldn't be seen dead in a pair of human skin shoes.
	Of course not, but a human and an alligator aren't the same thing, so here we are back at square one.
	I like my alligator skin shoes.
	In fact, an alligator skin is exceptionally cruel because they have to raise them to be the exact same size.
	No good pair of alligator skin shoes is made from one alligator.
	You need two because you need the patterns on the front to be exactly the same.
	And they're killed at a specific age, depending on what your shoe size is, depending if you get them custom made.
	So it's particularly cruel.
	But I like my alligator skin shoes.
	That's what the alligators are raised for.
	The alligators weren't happily walking around in the wild when someone saw them and said, I'm going to make a pair of shoes out of this guy.
	You know? What they did was they farmed them, they raised them, they made my shoes, and I love the end product.
	And I do not feel sorry for those alligators at all.
	And I never will. So basically, as long as we get pleasure from the action or some kind of satisfaction.
	As long as we get some goods. Yeah, some goods from the action.
	Some goods from the action.
	Gelatin, bone marrow, skin, leather.
	I'm down with it. Anything we want to...
	If I had an animal right here on stream, I could have an animal right here.
	The cows are highly sentient beings like dogs.
	They care for their young.
	They experience all the basic experiences we do as human beings.
	We might have a...
	Some intelligence over cows, but most basic experiences...
	I have a lot. Well, there are human beings that...
	Well, how about this? There are human beings that have about the sentience of a cow and about the experience of a cow, and they're born like that.
	We protect them with human rights.
	Made in the image of God.
	Okay, yeah, but if they weren't made in the image of God and you couldn't tell them apart from other humans, would it be okay to skin them alive and make shoes out of them?
	I mean, you know I have a distinction between animal life and human life.
	We've been over this a hundred times.
	You're saying that I think we should be able to skin people with mental deficiencies to make shoes out of them, and that's my argument?
	How about this? How about if these human beings were just...
	They weren't made in the image of God.
	They were farmed, and they were...
	We were somehow creating a farm of human beings, so they're not made in the image of God.
	We were creating them, and you couldn't tell the difference between us and them in terms of our experience.
	We're basically hominids, and these people existed on this farm.
	It's fine for me to torture them because they're not made in the image of God.
	If you can't distinguish between human life and animal life, then I feel very sorry for you.
	Because I'm a father. I have kids.
	My daughter is maybe not as smart as a dog.
	She's only two. Do I think you should be able to make shoes out of my daughter?
	Is that what you're saying? Because I don't think anyone...
	I'm creating a hypothetical.
	Well, we're not hypotheticals because we live in the real world, don't we?
	I've given lots of hypotheticals, but I don't like to go down the hypothetical route.
	I said if I could kill animals without torturing them and without being cruel and it would be ideal if they could all live wonderful lives, I could give hypotheticals too.
	But we live in the real world. We live in the world of supply and demand.
	We live in the world where third world people are trying to get the best living they can by raising animals as fast as they can in as big numbers as we can.
	And... It's fine.
	It's really fine. I believe it's fine.
	You don't eat animals for third world people, that's for sure.
	You eat animals because you like the taste and it's for pleasure and things like that.
	But I was just creating a hypothetical to test this.
	I'm trying to test... It's just a consistency test, by the way.
	It's just trying to test whether or not if there were human beings that weren't made in the image of God and we sort of created them, because this is actually logically possible.
	So if I may...
	If I had made a human farm, basically, they're my human beings.
	Is it okay for me to cut them up?
	You couldn't distinguish them from...
	Well, this is actually... You know what?
	This is actually a very, very interesting point.
	This is a very interesting point.
	And we are, as humans, going down this road.
	So we might find some common ground here.
	Because people are talking about raising humans that are, for example, you.
	They'll take your DNA code and raise a human without the brain or mind or consciousness or whatever so that you could have access to that human's liver or heart.
	I don't believe in that case.
	No, humans are humans, and I don't believe that we should be doing that.
	I believe humans are making the image of God, and I don't believe if you start a farm raising humans for organs, for organ transplants, which is an area of science that is being explored right now, do I think that's right?
	No, I don't believe in abortion.
	I don't believe in harvesting the body parts of babies who are eight months or seven months old when they're aborted to take their tissue and their skin and their bone to run human experiments on.
	No, I think that's all morally evil because humans are humans or animals are animals.
	And I'll always have a distinction between them.
	Yeah, but I was just trying to create this scenario so that they weren't actually made in the image of God to see if that was actually the trait.
	Every human is created in the image of God.
	No, because if we created them, they're made in our own image so we could farm them to be slightly genetically different.
	I created my daughter.
	In fact, humans have been far to be genetically different.
	Humans have been far to be genetically different.
	Then they wouldn't be technically made in the image of God, would they then, Tristan?
	See, you're going down a road that just has a dead end.
	They are humans. I'm just trying to find out So I'm the descendant of African-American slaves.
	African-American slaves were the product of eugenics programs, of breeding programs, where they got the biggest, strongest slaves and the biggest, strongest women, and interbred them to create bigger, stronger slaves.
	And it was all a big market. And that was completely wrong.
	And there's been slave trades everywhere.
	North Africa being one of the world's largest.
	China, the United States, the slave trades have existed all over the world.
	If you're saying because I think it's fine to farm cows that I think it's fine to farm people, I'm never, ever going to agree with you.
	Humans are humans and animals are animals.
	I don't know if you think that.
	I'm trying to find out whether you feel that if this trait made in God's image didn't exist, like in some hypothetical, whether you would think it's okay to do what we do to animals to those hypothetical humans.
	You'll never convince you that that is a scenario that exists.
	It can never exist. Every human is made in the image of God.
	Well, basically, we can do this.
	We did these animals that exist right now.
	They're selectively bred. They're not made how God made them.
	They're human-created animals.
	You know about the pigs and the chickens and the cows and the dairy producers.
	They're all human-selectively bred freak shows at the moment.
	This is eugenics, like genetic manipulation that humans have done to these non-human animals.
	In fact, being a chicken is just a life of suffering because they're too big to hold their own weight.
	Now, we do this to animals.
	It is logically possible, and it's just possible for us to do this to human beings as well, and they wouldn't technically be made in God's image.
	It's okay to do what we do to animals.
	In this case, in this hypothetical case of human beings, I'm trying to figure it out.
	Because that case exists all the time, and that case is actually the case right now, right here in the world.
	If I'm dating a girl because I think she's big and strong and I want to have big, strong children, people make these kind of choices all the time.
	Are you saying that that child is selectively bred and we can use her to make a pair of shoes?
	Humans are humans, animals are animals.
	I can actually cut it off one step before this.
	I could cut it off at the step, whereas I think if any weirdo was selectively breeding humans for any reason, then no, humans have free will and free agency, and they should be able to reproduce with whoever they want.
	If any human is selectively breeding humans, then that's slavery, and slavery is wrong in the first place.
	So we should never even get there if we care about morals and humanity.
	Well, I just apply the morals consistently.
	Yeah, but it's a cow. I mean, it doesn't matter if they are human or non-human.
	And in this case, in the hypothetical case, they would technically be non-human hybrids.
	So I'm just asking for consistency in both places.
	Obviously, I don't think it's right to enslave animals and decapitate them because I don't see them as morally distinct from...
	Human sentient beings, like, not really, like, especially when you get down to the sentience of, like, children and that.
	A child and a pig are pretty, like, even in terms of sentience.
	To you. Especially, like, a toddler.
	To you. Not to me.
	Yeah, well, I mean, you might have other reasons to care about human beings.
	No. No, it doesn't matter if it's a child born in China who I've never seen in my life.
	Humans or humans or animals or animals.
	No one in my chat thinks you're coming to a conclusion with this point because this hypothetical scenario you talk about where we selectively bred humans for thousands of years to create mutant humans.
	Could you eat them? Could you eat an animal that has some human DNA? I mean, this has never happened and this isn't the real world that we live on.
	This is the real world that we live in.
	I just didn't believe that being made in God's image was the only morally relevant trait.
	It's not.
	My argument is that it doesn't have to be morally relevant.
	Cows and chickens are beneath me, and they're beneath humans, and I don't care.
	I don't care about cows and chickens in the same way that I care about humans, and I never will.
	Or crocodiles, or any life form.
	Some people have actually thought that way about human beings as well.
	They've lowered human beings down and used these bizarre justifications to do horrible things to human beings.
	I'm the product of slaves myself.
	I'm the product of the slave trade.
	My father was an African-American. Which is a horrible, horrible...
	Yeah. So why are you trying to correlate these two things with food production?
	I'm saying that what has happened in history...
	Because the lowest form of every argument is, you're Hitler.
	That's how all arguments dissolve into.
	And now you're talking about the Holocaust.
	No, I'm saying that these things have happened in history.
	No, I'm saying that the mindset definitely is...
	Yeah, and that's morally wrong. Where we say these beings don't matter because of X. Well, who says that?
	God doesn't think that.
	Well, people with these kind of...
	Animals are obviously sentient beings.
	You know they can experience torture and suffering and experience the world.
	They have a subjective experience.
	If I harmed an animal, everyone knows that that's animal cruelty.
	That's wrong because they're having their own individual experience.
	And what people tend to do is they go, they're below me because of X reason, because they're not made in God's image or they're not humans and we are superior so we can do whatever we want throughout history.
	And it's what humans have used to justify harming other humans.
	Yeah, I know it's a bad mindset.
	I agree that's a bad mindset.
	So where is this going?
	Well, I'm just asking to apply, like, a more consistent mindset.
	To cows? To chickens? That's not consistent.
	Yeah, exactly. I mean, you might think it's stupid, but I don't see a cow as any different to other sentient beings.
	Like, I don't see them as any real difference in terms of their suffering.
	And there we go. And there we go. You don't see a cow's difference.
	That's what I said. Do you believe that human lives and animals are exactly the same?
	In terms of how they experience, like, a knife in the throat, it's just as bad for that cow as it is for, like, a child.
	So I think they're both wrong, you know?
	That's the food chain. Sharks don't care how I feel.
	They bit me in half either. Yeah, but I mean, I don't think what sharks do is like ethical.
	I wouldn't mimic my behavior and go, hey, you know, sharks, they eat other sharks and lions eat other lions' cubs.
	Horrible things happen in nature.
	I would never point to nature and say that's an ethical way of us living in civilization.
	Obviously, that would justify us killing each other and eating each other.
	Cannibalism happens in nature.
	Look, cannibalism is wrong. And if you're going to ever try to drag the argument of humans are in some way equal to animals, so we shouldn't treat humans this way, so we shouldn't treat animals in this way.
	If that is going to be the baseline of this last 10 minutes that you keep going on about, that's never going to be a conclusion that someone like me is going to reach.
	And it's not going to be a conclusion that any healthy person is going to reach either.
	No healthy person is going to ever think that ever.
	Ever. So, I mean, you keep looking for...
	I don't know what you're looking for me to say.
	I don't know if you... I'm just trying to figure out what you fundamentally believe is like...
	Killing humans is wrong.
	Killing animals is fine. That's what I fundamentally believe.
	Yeah, exactly. I'm trying to figure out why...
	Because to me, that's a contradiction.
	Because for the same...
	I'm trying to figure out why it's okay in this case.
	Most people disagree with you.
	Most people don't think killing dogs is okay, but you think killing dogs is absolutely fine.
	I think if someone wants to kill their dog, it's fine by me.
	I'm not going to tell them not to. It's their dog.
	And in the case of these animals in poaching that you brought up as well, you have an issue with trophy hunting, it was.
	It's not so much an issue.
	So we might find common ground, because I'm glad that's over, because I'm never ever going to correlate animal life and human life.
	That's just not a conclusion that I'm going to reach, or I don't think any healthy person is ever going to reach.
	So fishing for something down that well is always going to be non-productive.
	Not that you'd go fishing. Vegan joke there?
	No. I'm hilarious. It's a bad joke.
	I thought it was quite funny. I thought it was funny.
	Okay, fine. Yusuf laughed.
	I wouldn't go fishing for humans, that's for sure.
	My tech guy laughed.
	That was a good joke. You know, trophy hunting...
	I think that trophy hunting is unfair.
	I like predators.
	I respect bears and lions, sharks.
	I respect elephants.
	I respect them because they're mightier than the human.
	If I could subdue an entire population of cows and have them run across the field because I have a dog chase after them and I could raise them for food, good.
	I made the cows.
	I created the cows.
	Going out there and shooting elephants, I don't think is a fair fight.
	And I think that vegans and people like me should get together and say, let's change the rules of trophy hunting.
	So you have to fight the animal in a fair way.
	Is that an improvement on shooting them with guns?
	No, I think depending on what the animal is, we should use different weapons.
	I mean, fight a lion with your bare hands or fight an elephant with your bare hands?
	What I'm saying, if someone says to me, these big fat Americans usually, sorry Americans if you're listening, but it's usually you, they take these pictures next to these lions with their rifle, like they're some sort of champion.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	If you wanna go fight a lion, I think you should have, I don't know, a sword and a shield or a suit of armor and two knives.
	Because then at least if you do it, I can respect you.
	If I walk into someone's head and they have a lion's head mounted on the wall, even me, I'd be a bit like, well, what did you do that for?
	And it'd be like, well, I shot it from six miles away Hunting's natural. Hunting may be natural, but your gun certainly isn't.
	Two knives, suit of armor, go and kill the lion.
	Because that way, if I walk into your house, you've got a lion's head on the wall, and you're covered in scars and bruises and cuts.
	I'd be like, you're the fucking man.
	That's impressive. Can we at least agree that we should change the rules on weaponry?
	Because fewer people would do it.
	If someone fights a lion with their bare hands and wins, then I think they deserve some kind of medal because that's an unheard of thing.
	Good. So let's explain that we need to change the rules.
	So should we change the rules on factory farming as well?
	Because we seem to use these beings to escape.
	We bring them into these prisons and we send them into slaughterhouses where they can't escape.
	Don't you think we should change the rules there too?
	Nope. Not at all.
	I think if you could somehow viably run a lion factory farm or an elephant factory farm, all credit to you.
	If you manage to pull that off, well done.
	So no, I don't think we should. How about this?
	Go on. How about this, Tristan? We liberate all of the animals in the factory farm situation, the cows and pigs, chickens and lambs, and even the ones that are going to the slaughterhouse, and the only meat you eat is if you fight a lion with your bare hands and win.
	No, that's just stupid.
	Why would I need to fight a lion with my bare hands and win to enjoy a bucket of KFC? Because it's unfair.
	The entire ecosystem. No, it's fair.
	It's fair. The man killing the chickens is perfectly entitled and he created the chickens.
	I'm not against lion factory farms.
	Find a way. Wait a second.
	I thought God created the animals, one.
	And we're not even eating animals that were created by God, two.
	If you're a God-fearing, like, a Christian, these animals are created by human beings and they're genetically bred freak shows.
	So is every vegetable. So is every fruit.
	God created animals to feel pain and suffer with a brain and a nervous system and all that, if you believe that.
	Why did God create animals to suffer and also experience well-being and happiness and good feelings?
	Your argument broke down in the first five seconds because you're saying, oh, it's unnatural because these animals are created by humans by selective breeding.
	So is every vegetable and fruit that you eat.
	Every one. I'm talking about the beings that matter morally, like sentient animals.
	Apple, chicken, apple, I don't care.
	God created apples not to suffer.
	No brain, no central nervous system, no pain receptors, no eyes, so there's no nerves.
	Obviously, that seems like something you can eat without causing them any pain and suffering.
	Yeah, but I don't care about chickens.
	I know chickens suffer. What I'm asking is, you talked about the Bible and about animals being in the Bible that we can eat, right?
	But these animals are nothing to do with God.
	These animals are human-selectively-bred freak shows.
	It's more like the work of the devil.
	We're talking about suffering.
	We know it's the work of man.
	You know the devil didn't build the factory farm, and the devil didn't create the modified chicken.
	If you looked in a factory farm and seen a bunch of chickens suffering on their faces and overgrown bodies, would you say that's the work of God?
	No, it's the work of man.
	So men can do evil things?
	I thought, if you believe in God...
	It would be evil if you did it to people.
	chickens I don't care about.
	So it's only, so basically anything bad that happens to animals is not evil and not, not the devil's work.
	It's human work.
	But anything bad that happens to humans is the devil's work.
	You started this by saying that you are, no, not everything bad that if I'm, if an alligator eats me, that's not Satan, that's nature.
	And I'm talking about factory farms, like just, just looking at the footage, right?
	Cause anyone can go watch factory farm footage right now.
	They can go look at my investigations in my uncovered series. They can look at that, right?
	And just, if you're, if you're, if you're a religious person, like say you're Muslim, you're Christian, whatever, look in, look in that factory farm, look in that slaughterhouse of the suffering and the animals dying in their own blood and go, is that God or the devil?
	Well, I think you're falling on your face here because we started this argument with you saying that you don't believe in a God.
	And now you're trying to say, oh, but it's wrong what happens to chickens.
	So is that the devil?
	And now you're invoking the devil on man-made farming processes, which feed millions of people worldwide.
	And I'm very grateful for them.
	And that's the work of man.
	And I love chickens. I'm just fitting the beliefs of others because in Islam actually, you brought up Islam before, but in Islam there's actually like a little bit of something about animal welfare in their religion where they believe that causing animal suffering and cruelty is Islam, right?
	And I speak to Muslims quite a lot and we have actually quite productive discussions.
	Wonderful. Now they at least believe that causing animal suffering and cruelty is wrong, is Morally wrong and it's haram.
	You can't eat that flesh, right?
	Are you a Muslim? No, I'm not a Muslim.
	Why are you invoking their arguments here?
	Because you brought up...
	I live with two. There's one right here next to me.
	Yeah, I know Andrew's a Muslim as well now.
	Okay, but what I'm saying is that you don't even believe that causing animals cruelty in factory farms is wrong and you brought up Islam before and said, oh, they just slit the animals' throats, right?
	And you believe that's a good way of doing it?
	Yes. Yeah?
	Yeah. So, what I'm saying is in Islam, you can't even be...
	You can't... Every point...
	Factory farms are... See, I feel like I've met...
	When I said there was never going to be any debate, I think every point that you've tried to raise, we're just going back to things I said within the first 20 minutes.
	If you can kill them as humanely as possible, that would be good.
	That's what I said an hour ago.
	So factory farms are bad?
	because they cause the animals suffering, yeah?
	No, they're not bad.
	So it's just morally neutral.
	Factory farms are morally neutral, but cutting an animal's head off without them being cruel is better.
	It's better, yeah.
	It's better.
	So one is good, would you call the suffering in the factory farms good?
	It's all good.
	I can get food everywhere in the world that I want, and factory farms are part of the supply and demand food chain.
	It's a wonderful thing that we can feed all these people on the planet.
	It's a wonderful thing that there are fewer people starving and dying of hunger than there ever was before at any point in human history, that we've managed to take many people in the third world, especially in modern day China, thanks to factory farms, and take them out of poverty and give them the ability to eat food, mainly meat.
	every single day. I think it's a wonderful thing, yes.
	And you'll never change my mind otherwise.
	Factory farms are fine by me, and I know what goes on, and I've seen them, and I don't care.
	It's a chicken. It's a chicken, bro.
	Like, seriously, I just don't care.
	Actually, you can't say that now because you did care a little bit.
	You cared enough to stop me torturing them.
	You cared enough to stop me torturing them.
	When I created a chicken torture-like scenario, you did care a little bit.
	I see the glimmer of empathy in you, bro.
	You like hypotheticals, and if you're going to torture chickens after this feed and message me that you're torturing chickens, I'm going to turn my phone off and go and live my life.
	You want to do that?
	That's fucked up, but go right ahead.
	What do I do? Drive over to where you are and tackle you to save the chicken?
	If I'm doing it for a bucket of chicken, isn't that like fine with you?
	That's what I was...
	That's what I thought your position was.
	Yeah, factory farm that produces chicken for us tweet is completely fine.
	Okay. Well, okay.
	Should we do some finishing statements or do you want to continue?
	Is there any other roads you want to go down with?
	I don't know if you believe the same...
	There were generally no roads I wanted to go down at the beginning of this.
	I think I said at the beginning that this wasn't going to be a debate because I'm not an uninformed person who's going to hear what you have to say and go, oh my god, wow, oh wow, maybe I should stop beating me.
	I know all the things that you know already.
	And eating animals is perfectly fine.
	I don't care about animals like I care about humans.
	Humans are morally superior.
	Humans were given dominion over this earth by God and we were created in God's image and humans are sacred.
	So all of your arguments about what if humans were farmed in this way and, you know, animals, what if I just tortured them for fun?
	That's not what I do.
	I'm not the guy who says it's fun to torture animals, and I love torturing animals, so I'm going to debate this vegan.
	I'm a guy who has a healthy relationship with food and a healthy relationship with meat.
	I understand where it comes from, and I simply don't care about a chicken like I do about humans.
	So there was never really a debate in the first place, but your fans insisted I debate you.
	But I don't really see where we disagree, because I know the things you know.
	Yeah, well, we disagree on that animals have no value whatsoever and they're beneath us and we can do what we want to them.
	Oh, animals have... Wear them and eat them.
	Animals have value. I didn't say animals have no value.
	Can we talk about masculinity for just before you...
	I don't know if you want to keep going down this road, but I just want to know what your views on masculinity are.
	My views on masculinity...
	The reason I'm asking... Go ahead, please.
	I'd like to know the reason you're asking.
	Because if it's about chickens... It's not a trap.
	I mean, yeah. I'm just trying to figure out what you...
	It's not really a trap.
	I'm just trying to figure out... I don't mind if it's a trap.
	Yeah, I know. You're going to say that because I'm not masculine.
	I mean, that's your opinion.
	It's fine. I don't care.
	No, no. I just want to figure out because in my view, basically figuring out whether or not you think being masculine is being a protector or helping the vulnerable, those that we perceive as – like you perceive animals as below you.
	They're basically... They're at our mercy.
	We can do what we want to them, these birds.
	They're very fragile. They are tiny.
	We can crush them with our boot.
	Do you think that it is a...
	Like eating meat, eating these animals is like a form of masculinity or does it make you more of a man or anything like that?
	No, I don't believe that.
	I'm not one of these guys who says, oh, you have to eat meat to be a man.
	To be a man, you have to live by your own convictions and you have to stand by your own convictions.
	I feel like the question is wired in a way, and I don't want it, to spiral back down that toilet of, oh, but babies and humans are less vulnerable, so, you know, chickens and humans.
	I don't want to spiral back down that same toilet bowl.
	But being a man is about living by your own convictions, standing up and saying, this is what I believe in, being ready to challenge people and their beliefs, being happy to talk to people, like I'm talking to you now when a bunch of internet trolls say you're scared to debate veganism, when it's an issue I don't really care about.
	But being able to stand up, say what you mean, mean what you say, that's what being a man is about.
	I'm not saying you have to go around and stab, oh, I stabbed a pig, I'm so macho.
	I mean, it's not an easy thing to do.
	Just like punching someone in the face isn't an easy thing to do.
	You've punched plenty of people in the face and so have I, I'm sure.
	But that's the nature of the reality of the world that we live in.
	So no, I'm not going to even fall into the trap of saying you have to eat meat to be a man.
	Because, you know, when I've seen you argue with people, people look...
	That's scared of you a bit, intimidated by you a bit, and you stand up there anyway, no matter what someone says.
	If someone's eating a burger in your face, you say, no, I think this is wrong, and I'm going to travel around the world and say that this is wrong as much as I want to.
	That is being a man, and credit for you for doing it.
	If you want to go around the world and preach this for the rest of your life, which I assume you will, then all power to you, but you're never, ever, ever I'm never going to convince people like me because there are smart people out there who know everything about the meat industry you do.
	You can't hit us with any eye-openers.
	You can't hit us with any weird hypotheticals about non-human humans because that's just not real.
	And I'm going to shrug my shoulders.
	I'm going to hang up this call after we finish amicably saying goodbye to each other.
	And I'm going to go and eat whatever I like.
	And you're going to eat whatever you like.
	And you're not going to be able to change my mind.
	So be a man, say what you mean, mean what you say, and travel around the world and continue doing it.
	But you're going to have zero success when it comes to people like me.
	I don't care. And, you know, Tristan, coming into this, I actually already knew that.
	I just really, like, appreciated...
	I just want to say I really appreciate you having this discussion with me on your platform.
	Because you didn't have to.
	You didn't have to do anything.
	I didn't have to. Even if people say, oh, you're scared of this, you didn't have to have me on your platform with all of your...
	Tens of thousands of people watching this right now.
	I really am appreciative of that, and I'm glad that you don't...
	You're not saying, oh, you have to eat meat to be a man or whatever like that.
	I mean, because I think it's actually pathetic if people think that what you put in your mouth makes you more of a protector or more of a man or thinks it makes you any less of a man to care about this issue.
	You're just saying you don't care about animals.
	I disagree. I do care about vulnerable beings, and that's why I try to protect them, okay?
	And if anyone was stomping on an animal, provided like, you know, like I was in their vicinity, I would rush in and help and I'd get bashed trying to help an animal from being forced to come.
	And again, if I saw a man stepping on a dog, I wouldn't walk past smiling.
	So I know we can go down these same arguments again and again and again and again.
	But I don't think we're ever going to get anywhere with this.
	So...
	I just was trying to figure out your views on masculinity, and if you're saying it doesn't make you more or less of a man, if you've got to eat steak to be a man, eating steak is manly or whatever, something stupid like that, or if you eat vegan, you're going to be feminized or turn into a woman or something like this.
	I have said the exact opposite.
	I saw this fat soy dork standing at his barbecue grill in his Crocs, in his shorts, in his low-income house, flipping these burgers, being like, oh yeah, I'm such a man because I could barbecue.
	I'm like, you think that makes you a man?
	Bro, you look like a middle-aged fat lesbian.
	What's wrong with you? You're not a man.
	If I came into your house and stole your burgers, you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
	Not that... I mean, yeah.
	So I've actually said the exact opposite a few times.
	No, I don't think it's mutually exclusive.
	Yeah, I mean, it doesn't matter.
	You can be a vegan and be a man and protect the vulnerable, protect your family, and if you had to bear arms and go to war and protect the vulnerable, protect your children, there's a stereotype that just because you care about other animals that aren't dogs or whatever, that makes you less of a man or whatever.
	I know a lot of your...
	Your following, they listen to what you say.
	They really do, mate.
	You've got a huge influence and people respect you a lot.
	I look at all of your comments. I look at your following.
	It's massive. Thank you. People respect you and something about you that they listen to.
	I was just hoping that there's some people that listen to you that...
	That you might be able to sort of bring them off of this at least this anti-vegan stereotype kind of thing where people are, if you're a vegan, you're a bitch or if you're a vegan, you're part of the matrix or you've fallen for some propaganda or you're like, you know how people bring all that shit.
	Really, it just fundamentally could mean that people just care about the experience of animals that people just don't generally care about.
	So, I mean... It's the exact same point I made about Japanese history earlier.
	Like, people have different passions and people have different things that they fight for.
	I know you think this is super important and the whole world needs to care.
	Some people don't care.
	Some people don't care about the things that I say or the things that I do.
	And that's the way it is. But no, I think that most people I know who I would describe as bitches, to use your word, this guy's a bitch, because 99% of people eat meat, especially where I live, then 99% of the people I meet are bitches.
	So I wouldn't say it's mutually exclusive.
	No. Read.
	Be smart. Be a man. Don't be afraid of standing up for your values.
	Train yourself. Become physically strong.
	Protect and provide for the people who you care about.
	The people who you care about.
	I think that's what makes you a man. And if you want to be a vegan, I truly don't care.
	Which is why I started this off with, this isn't a debate.
	Because I have no real disagreement on what you're doing.
	It's been a discussion, though, and I think it's been, like, more than what you thought it might be.
	I thought you were just going to come in and say you don't care.
	It's all fine. I don't care.
	And then, like, it wouldn't be. But we have actually got into more of a discussion than maybe you expected, yeah?
	Yeah, I mean, more my position is that I don't care.
	And I think I've maintained that quite well.
	But, yeah, I think that we both know a lot about this topic, which is why I thought I'd sit and talk to you.
	Because I imagine that, especially the people watching on YouTube, I can imagine what your comment section is like.
	This guy's a meathead.
	This guy's stupid. This guy is X, Y, and Z. And they thought I'd sit here and be like, oh, what?
	Animals are treated badly to make my food?
	I just thought I'll just put it out there.
	Let's have a nice, reasonable discussion.
	And we have had a reasonable discussion.
	There hasn't been a single bad word exchange between us before this, and I don't imagine there will be after this.
	I imagine your fans will attack me, though.
	And my fans might attack you.
	That's nature of the internet. Yeah, I mean, they probably already are.
	They're probably going, oh! They're probably...
	Look, we're both going to...
	I'll probably get it worse than you because you've got a much larger following.
	But look, giving me the time to...
	And also, you watch the gas chamber footage on my Twitter.
	I did that expose.
	I went and risked my life and stuck the cameras in that gas chamber while it had gas in it and brought out the images from the pigs, the first of its kind in the UK. So you saw that.
	So you know what goes on.
	I always have.
	You know it's riddled with cruelty.
	If people care about animals, they should probably care about that issue.
	It's just that you don't care about the animals.
	You don't give a shit. If people have any iota of care, Then they should probably stop funding that industry.
	But that's not you. If that's your final point, then I'll let you finish on that final point without trying to correct you or interject.
	I mean, obviously, I know that you being on my podcast is me sharing my platform with you.
	And if you've convinced someone to not eat animals, then more power to you.
	So is that it?
	Well, Tristan, I mean, that can be it, mate.
	I just want to say thank you so much for allowing me on.
	And people were saying I was giving you a platform.
	You were definitely giving me a platform.
	Thank you. I'm glad we agree on that.
	We didn't have to. And look, mate, if you ever...
	I mean, maybe this is not a good idea, because you probably wouldn't care, but if you ever want to come into one of these farms with me when you're in the UK, or catch up, have a vegan burger or something like that, then please.
	Mate, I would love to. Now you're baiting me.
	Now you're baiting me. Yeah, I could bring you into these places.
	Like, it would be a good video, mate, if you actually see what's going on inside there and have that.
	And maybe you just go, I don't care still.
	I won't care. Maybe you might.
	I super don't care. Send me every video you make for the rest of your life, and I will continue to eat meat, as will most of my followers.
	So... Why don't you share it on your platform and see how many people don't care with you?
	Well, everyone who has any issue and anyone who has any point who they're trying to get across wants to share my platform and they want me to promote their stuff.
	Now, I'm going to promote the things that are applicable to me in my life and the things I want to share with the world.
	You share the things that you want to share with the world.
	And we'll leave it at that.
	And I wish you a happy and healthy vegan life.
	And I will continue to keep eating meat.
	God bless you, Joey. Thank you for joining me.
	I'm going to continue this stream without you for a while.
	Have a nice night. Take care, mate. Thank you very much.
	Bye-bye. So, why did I debate Joey Carbstrong?
	It wasn't really a debate.
	The only reason I gave this guy a platform is, one, he was very respectful, very kind.
	I didn't seem to have any problem with anything he said to me ever, despite his fans attacking me for all sorts of various reasons.
	I just knew that it was very important for vegans out there who are usually into cornering people with hypothetical arguments and arguments that don't apply to the real world.
	Or giving people ridiculous arguments like, oh, well, you know, what if your child was used to make shoes?
	Or a version of that.
	Needed to actually encounter somebody in the world who has a healthy mindset, who stays healthy and fit, likes to eat meat, and simply doesn't see the world the same way he does.
	And, you know, it's fine to see the world in a different way because I have over 30-something thousand people watching this.
	And let me tell you, all of us, if we spoke about various issues, whether it be politics, wars...
	Weapons, food, we'll all have different opinions and we'll all see things in a very different way.
	But I think it is good for the vegans watching this to know that There are lots of people who are smart enough to understand where their food comes from.
	There are a lot of people who understand exactly what makes it possible to get the steak and the chicken and the things that they like to eat on their plate.
	And we think it's perfectly fine, perfectly justifiable, and we simply don't care.
	So I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Mr.
	Joey Carbstrom.
	And I finished my cigar and probably four cigarettes by now.
	So that's going to be it.
	I'm not going to take anyone else on the stream.
	I have no one else that I particularly want to call right now.
	It's getting late. It's now almost one o'clock in the morning.
	So this has been another Tristan Tate cigar night.
	I hope you enjoyed it. Even those of you who hated my guest, I can see you in the chat.

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