Aug. 25, 2012 - The Political Cesspool - James Edwards
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Welcome to the Political Cesspool, known worldwide as the South's foremost populous radio program.
And here to guide you through the murky waters of the Political Cesspool is your host, James Edwards.
And welcome back, everybody.
Once again, this is Bill Rowland sitting in for the third hour in place of James Edwards to continue our series of interviews with Dr. Tom Sell, a true American political prisoner.
And if you've listened to the previous programs, you know that Dr. Tom Sell was put through literal hell on earth, mainly in all likelihood, and what appears to be a systematic persecution of the doctor because of his beliefs and because he refused to knuckle under to the federal government when false charges were brought against him.
And we, as I say, continue with this interview.
I will say that for five minutes or so towards the end of Dr. Sell's interview, I'd like to bring on someone else if he's there.
Dr. Sell, are you with us?
Yes, I'm at a beautiful private lodge in the heart of the Ozark.
And are you there with Earl?
Yeah, Earl.
That's his lodge.
Is he there with you by any chance?
Yeah, the last Earl of Shaw.
You want to talk to him?
Well, I want to talk to him for about the last five minutes concerning the controversy over Representative Aiken because I believe the media is not telling us everything.
And I know since you and Earl are from Missouri, you'll have more insight into the Aiken situation.
And I'd like to get Earl's views on that and ask him some questions.
But that'll be towards the end of the hour.
Dr. Sell, I don't know whether you're aware of it, but over the last couple of weeks, there has been news out about a young Marine who has been put in prison,
taken away by the feds for posting criticism of Obama and certain materials on his website which have been deemed or declared dangerous or terrorist or whatever terms our Orwellian government uses now to justify persecution of American citizens.
But this young man, his name is Brandon Robb, spelled the German way, R-A-U-B, has been taken into custody.
And would it surprise you, Dr. Sell?
He's being held at a mental facility in Virginia.
Does that surprise you at all that our quasi-Bolshevik government would haul a suspect, as they would call him, immediately off to a mental facility to be held in custody there.
But apparently, Brandon Robb had posted some things on his Facebook page, which the Obama government considered a menace to the government and a threat to the government.
And I went, actually read some of the things he put on his website.
I didn't see anything threatening or hostile or menacing at all.
What interested me was that he listed among great Americans such people as Frederick Douglass, John F. Kennedy, and Martin Luther King.
Now, this is the new domestic threat to the government, are people who are worshippers of people we don't necessarily worship or have any respect for their beliefs.
But now it's moved further left.
You know, the quasi-Bolshevik government we have in this country is moving further to the left looking for enemies.
So I'd like your opinion on Maureen Robb's case.
Do you see any similarities?
Oh, yeah, they'll probably want to medicate him with an anti-psychotic drug to get these ideas out of his head.
But of course, if Obama's your commander-in-chief and your active duty military, you've got to be very careful what you say because when I was in command and general staff college at Fort Sill, they had us in an auditorium, and that's after right after Clinton became president, and there was a lot of criticism of him being a draft dodger,
and they told us we were not allowed in any way even to joke about Clinton being a draft dodger.
So when you're in the military, you've got to be apolitical.
I don't know whether, I don't know whether he's private Rob or Corporal Robb or Sergeant Robb, but I don't know whether he's still active duty or not.
I do know that he served in, I think, Afghanistan, maybe in Iraq, and was apparently a well, highly regarded soldier.
And I wonder if the limits that they put on the military in regards to political statements or comments, if those aren't selectively persecuted.
Because I can't remember in the entire administration of Republican presidents that any former officer or soldier was ever prosecuted for criticizing the president.
It only seems to be the Democrats, the ones who hate the military to begin with, hate our soldiers, hate the fact that these are patriotic people.
It seems they're the only ones who have a problem with what the military, members of the military may say or their political opinions.
Yeah, it certainly does because look what they did to McChrystal.
He was a general and they fired him.
Well, getting back to your case, Dr. Sell, we've been stating throughout this series of interviews that you are an American political prisoner, not simply because of your beliefs, but because of your treatment by the government.
That is, this is a government hostile to the people, hostile to the American citizens, who a government that appears to be trying to impress upon the white American Christian that he's a hostage to political correctness, that he's a hostage to a regime which holds us in contempt.
And, you know, tonight I'd like to ask you some questions about your experience in prison and your experiences in the mental facility.
Did you, when you were there, notice a certain, I would say, a greater hostility towards people like you, people who were similar to you, as opposed to some of the other prisoners who may have been minorities or, you know, more liberal than conservative?
Oh, definitely.
Especially anyone who had a military background or who had a college education or who was a religious figure in any way, they were really singled out for mistreatment.
I remember you told us about the black colonel who was in Springfield with you, who had been handing out money or, I guess, credits from his account in prison so that he could buy cigarettes or was handing out cigarettes to other prisoners and was saying, praise Jesus when he did it.
I guess he would fit in that category even though he wasn't white.
He was apparently Christian and apparently in the military and disabled as well.
And of course, you told me he received high doses of medication, which probably killed him.
Yes, he was a colonel in the chemical corps, and there was an accident with the chemicals, and they sent him to a mental hospital, and he overturned a trash can there, so they said we can't handle him here.
They sent him to Springfield, and they gave him huge amounts of antipsychotic drugs.
Dr. Sell, we got a break.
Dr. Sell, we got a break.
We'll be right back after these messages.
Stay with us.
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Jump in the political says pool with James and the game.
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And here's the host of the Political Cess Pool, James Edwards.
Not James Edwards for the third hour.
Bill Rowland, acting as tailgunner for the program, carrying on our interview, our series of interviews with Dr. Tom Sell, a true American political prisoner.
And his story, if you've heard it so far, is unbelievable and is really only made tangible by the fact that he did appear on a segment of Dateline on NBC.
Dr. Sell, getting back to your situation in prison and a situation that was shared by other prisoners like yourself, did you ever have a particular conversation or a particular meeting or met anybody there who said to you, you know, you're being singled out.
They're making an example of you just like they did me.
Were there people so close to your situation that you actually connected with them?
Well, of course, everybody knew they were singling me out because I wouldn't take their medication, and I was fighting it in the courts.
Which may have increased...
I didn't really share my politics with everyone I ran into there.
I couldn't really trust anybody there one way or the other.
You know, you never knew who you were talking to.
Well, I guess that was a very wise decision considering that one brief conversation you had with a visitor when you were in jail caused charges that you were attempting to kill FBI agents or were trying to contract someone to kill FBI agents and federally protected witnesses.
So that's a very reasonable fear and caution, I would think.
But did you find anyone, did you know anyone in prison or while you were there who you felt was in similar situation to yours?
That is, in terms of, as you said, people from the military, Christians, were singled out.
Was there anybody who stood out in your memory?
You thought to yourself, this guy is being pigeonholed just as I am?
Well, two or three people.
There was that fellow from southern Georgia who one hot, sunny day in June, he just collapsed on the wreckyard there.
And in front of me, I started screaming for medical personnel.
And they came out and they said he's just had too much medication, too much medication.
And he was always praising the Lord and giving away cigarettes.
And they didn't like him giving away cigarettes.
So they put him in solitary confinement.
And one day, months later, we were sitting out there and we saw him bringing this old man Charlie out.
And he was even trying to give away cigarettes to the guards.
And the last time I saw him was on the main yard there, and he was in a wheelchair.
And he was still trying to give away cigarettes and praising the Lord.
And he died shortly after that.
And we found out he had over $100,000 in his commissary.
But they didn't like him, you know, giving away free cigarettes to people.
And there was another man who was in the Secret Service.
And He thought there was some kind of a Masonic plot or something against himself or what have you.
And they eventually locked him up totally in solitary confinement.
I never saw him again either.
And there was another fellow there who kind of slips my mind, but they mistreated him also because of his political beliefs.
I'm trying to think.
It slips my mind right off the bat.
Well, considering the treatment you received over that eight years, it's a miracle you have a mind at all, Dr. Selva.
Honestly, I mean, consider the stress and the trauma you went through was horrific.
And I think it would certainly, anyone who knew, has listened to this program so far about your ordeal facing the federal government would certainly say it's a miracle Dr. Sell is saying it all.
But on one hand, there were those who seemed to be more or less treated with more cruelty or more punishment.
Was there any group or any individuals there you noticed who were treated preferentially, were given preferential treatment, soft treatment?
Well, if you were a complete, totally passive to them and just held out by the CO's office constantly and took their drugs and totally cooperated, you'd be left alone by the guards and you wouldn't be mistreated, be kind of protected.
Well, your story reminds me more and more of one flu of the cuckoo's nest, where these people are really imprisoned in a mental hospital, and the ones who exhibit any form of sanity are punished cruelly, and the others submit to medication and whatever else the mental facility deems appropriate treatment.
That's what they give them in terms of, you know, I guess being hosed down or put in a straitjacket or given electroshock.
Were you ever given electroshock when you were there?
No.
I think that the chemicals they wanted to give someone was like a lobotomy, a chemical lobotomy.
And you would be completely submissive to whatever they suggested you do after that.
Not only that, but you have side effects of cardiac dyskinesis and diabetes and cataracts.
And, you know, these people would be just seen shaking and really looking ridiculous.
They did, like I said, after they locked me in for three weeks in a cell by myself in the middle of February with no heat, I was so sick they had to lift me and put me in a heated cell.
And that night I could hear through the vents Nurse Goldenberg and Officer Ramos saying, we're going to get you, Sel.
We're going to get you.
And the next morning, I was offered a shower since I hadn't had a shower in three weeks.
When I was in the shower, locked in, which is just a steel cage, screened in cage, that Officer Ramos took the hose from the sink, a scalding hot black hose, and kept spraying me with scalding hot water.
And that Nurse Goldenberg kept screaming, why are you doing this?
Why are you doing this?
and there were other guards that were witnesses.
And then when he took me out, handcuffed behind my back, he yanked my hands up, and that caused me to fall on the wet concrete floor.
And then he totally dragged me into my cell and pushed my head against the steel post of the bunk with my teeth knocked hard against the steel bunk and said, one move out of you and I'm going to break your teeth.
And then after that, of course, five minutes after that, all these guards came in with photographing me and everything and Nurse Goldenberg acted like, oh, now she's my real good caretaker and everything.
And they took me before a physician and I was stripped naked and they photographed me everywhere and turned to come.
They said I later from the photographs, they said I had first-degree burns over my whole body.
Over most of your body.
Yeah, over my whole body from that scalding hot water.
That's horrific.
Was there any talk about suing the government over that?
Or did you consider that considering all the time that was all on videotape?
And I was trying to get those videotapes released to the press, especially the post-dispatch reporter Carolyn Tuft.
And District Judge Store would never release them.
Dr. Sell, we got another break.
We'll be right back after these messages with Dr. Tom Sell.
This is the Political Cesspool.
The Political Cesspool, guys.
We'll be back right after these messages.
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We gotta get out of this place.
And welcome back to the Political Cesspool.
This is Bill Rowland taking over the third hour from James Edwards.
I'm actually sitting on his chest so that he can't get the microphone out of my hand.
But we're continuing our interview series with Dr. Tom Sell, a very serious subject, a true American political prisoner who suffered at the hands of our federal government.
It appears because, at least partially because of his beliefs, partially because he was in the American military and present during the Waco attack, which killed David Koresh and his followers at the compound.
Dr. Sell, I'd ask you before about people who receive preferential treatment.
When you were there eight years, eight years on and off from jail to jail, you said you were in 13 different jails over this period of time, over the eight years.
And during this eight years, did your case follow, it seemed like a logical course?
I mean, from what you've told us, first they start off with these bogus, clearly contrived charges of insurance and Medicaid fraud, and then they move on to obviously bogus charges that you had conspired to kill an FBI agent and federally protected witnesses.
And then they, of course, were able to intimidate your wife into going along with the government, and she spent two years in prison.
Now, during this time, what are your thoughts?
What's going through your head about where you're, you know, what's going on with your case and what's going on with your life?
Because you haven't been convicted of anything.
Well, I was worried sick.
And this is one of the travesties of justice in that I was, you're supposed to be considered innocent until you're proven guilty in this country.
But, you know, I was treated like I was guilty until I could prove myself innocent, but I could never get a trial to prove myself innocent.
I remember now, this The son of a Seventh-day Adventist bishop, and he was, I believe, a member of a right-wing militia group or someone who advocated the freedom to keep and bear arms.
And they put him on trumped-up charges, and they put him, they four-pointed him in solitary confinement, which means they shackled both arms and legs stretched out to his bunk so he couldn't move.
And I think he was lucky enough to have a diaper.
And they brought, from time to time, they let him sip water out of a cup.
And, of course, I could hear all the guards and nurses mocking him and making fun of him when he'd have a bowel movement and they'd have to change his diaper.
And they kept him like that, not for a day, not for a week, but for 30 days straight to break him.
Now, can you imagine?
I mean, just imagine if this kind of information had come out about prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, if they were being treated this way, there'd be an absolutely international outrage over the treatment of prisoners that way.
And yet, here you are, an American citizen, a member of the military, served your country in the military, a respected doctor.
And the way you were treated and the way a Seventh-day Adventist preacher is treated is actually worse than the terrorists, as we call them, at Guantanamo Bay.
What were some other people?
Who were some other people?
This man was actually in the same prison you were at the time.
Oh, yeah.
I knew him.
We played chess.
He was a genius at chess.
And he was a football player for one of the universities there in Oklahoma.
And they hated him.
He was very strong and very smart.
And they kept him four-pointed so he couldn't move at all for 30 days.
People there at Springfield died under four-pointing.
They actually died.
But you couldn't get this information out.
There was a reporter from one of the local TV stations in Springfield that actually stood outside the prison gate in the parking lot wanting to talk to the warden.
The warden wouldn't let him have any contact whatsoever with me or anyone else there.
And the judge, Judge Store, the district judge, would not for anything release those videotapes.
And he finally allowed an FBI agent and my psychiatrist and I to look at those tapes.
And my psychiatrist wrote a report that from what he saw of the abuse that I was subjected to there at Springfield, it was impossible for me to be competent to stand trial.
And I was given a copy of this report, but the judge and the lawyers were given a copy of the report, but the judge put strict rules on that report that it was not to be released to anybody.
But he, you know, somehow, not going to exactly say how, but I had a copy of the report, and that report got into the hands of the Post-Dispatch reporter, investigative reporter Carolyn Tuft, and she did write about that.
But the videotape was never released.
And on account of this report, before the report was released, the judge had promised that I would go to trial.
He had ruled me competent because, like I was telling you the last interview on the station, that I got a new competency hearing that Judge Store ruled me competent.
I was supposed to have a trial, but when he got this report, he said, for obvious reasons, I'm not going to let you go to trial.
And he sent me to Butner Hospital in North Carolina in ordered me there in November of 2004.
So I didn't get out of there and come back to St. Louis, to the St. Louis County Jail, till March of 2005.
So I still hadn't had a trial.
So was the treatment better at Buckner than it was at Springfield?
You know, I have to say the treatment was great at Butner.
The warden of the facility personally came up and introduced himself to me.
And even when I went to the trial line one time, he got in there and personally served me my food.
He said, you know, I guess Warden Hedricks at Springfield would never do this for you, would he, Dr. Sell?
I said, no way.
And I remember one time I couldn't find my way to the laundry there to drop off my laundry.
And I asked a guard, and I thought, oh, man, this is going to be a problem asking for directions.
And he was very polite, treated me like I was at a hotel in telling me where to go to drop off my laundry.
And of course, the inmates there, they had all heard about my case, and now they were studying in the library on how they could get out of being forced medicated as well.
So they were all glad to see me.
And I have to say that I can't think of any cases of mistreatment of me or anyone else while I was at Butner, North Carolina.
So it just goes to show you that they can treat people with respect and cordiality when they want to.
But the mentality at Springfield was right out of, I guess, the 1930s.
They never got out of this mentality of abusing people.
Well, Dr. Sellott, I would have to say that Springfield is certainly a very special institution with regards to political prisoners, let's say, because as I mentioned in a previous program, General Edwin Walker was sent there when he defied the government's policy of integration in the South.
And, of course, he had been in command of the troops at Little Rock who had used their bayonets against the white students at Central High and Little Rock.
And so he saw the intentions of the federal government.
And reportedly, he was sent to Springfield and may have even been given a lobotomy there.
We don't know.
We know that Bobby Kennedy was behind his abduction and removal to Springfield.
But do you think that the article that was written in the St. Louis Post dispatch may have frightened the people involved in your case, specifically the FBI and the judge and the psychiatrist, and may have shaken them up a little and made them worried that maybe they could get in big trouble now that what had happened to you had been released to the public?
Oh, no doubt about it.
As my case progressed and I was getting, you know, I guess I could use the word famous because I was going closer and closer to the Supreme Court.
I think it actually served to help me and to protect me because if I hadn't gotten any notoriety, I certainly think they would have found me hung in my cell or somehow would have devised a way to kill me.
But because of the crowd, I think they were afraid to do it because there would have been too much food on them.
Dr. Sell, we got another break.
We'll be right back after these messages.
You're listening to the political session with Bill Rowland and James Edwards.
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We pay the freight within the lower 48 states.
Welcome back.
To get on the political cesspool, call us on James's Dime, toll-free, at 1-866-986-6397.
And here's the host of the Political Cesspool, James Edwards.
Back with you, Bill Rowland, riding the caboose towards the end of the show now.
Bill Rowland here with James Edwards, and we are continuing our interview with Dr. Tom Sell.
We're in the last quarter hour here, so we're going to round it up a little early so we can hear from the last Earl of Shaw, who is there in Arkansas with Dr. Tom.
Missouri.
Missouri.
I'm sorry.
It was the Ozarks.
You didn't say Arkansas.
You said the Ozarks.
I apologize.
My mistaken geography.
Anyway, we're back with Dr. Tom Sell.
In the last 10 minutes here, Dr. Tom, you know, all of this torture and torment and agony you went through over a period of eight years, eight years, and finally you're put into a facility where you're treated with at least decency and humanity.
Was that the last place you were before you were released?
It was the last federal prison I was at before I was released, yes.
And so at all of this time, this is 2004, you still haven't gone to trial.
The charges against you are still vague at best.
I imagine they're put into an indictment of some sort.
But were you clear at this point on what you were being held for?
No, not really.
It was still the same.
Nothing was being cleared up.
So you're at this federal or this mental institution or hospital in, I think you said North Carolina.
Was it Buckingham or Buckner?
Buckner.
Buckner in North Carolina.
And you're being treated much better.
And then suddenly you're shipped off back to St. Louis and jail.
Do you think that maybe this treatment that you received at Buckner, I mean, you were finally treated, excuse me, with some humanity, with some decency, that maybe it softened you a little in terms of, you know, you began to feel like you wanted to get out at that point.
You wanted to end this?
Well, I received word that my mother was dying of terminal cancer, so I was, you know, much more attuned now to just taking the plea and get out because I wanted to see my mother before she died.
But that wasn't to be because the day that I got back to St. Louis, I received word that she'd passed away.
And so then that turned me bitter again.
And so I was determined to keep on fighting now that my mother had actually died.
And that's the state of mind I was in being at Buckner and then receiving word that my mother had passed away when I got back to St. Louis.
I imagine that what was happening to you had already taken a pretty hard toll on her anyway.
Oh, yeah, she was really upset.
She was really mad at me, but she always sent me $50 for commissary, no matter how mad she was.
But she was really upset.
This was really devastating to her.
Well, I imagine so, because I'm sure she thought of you as always being a good guy.
And, you know, it's a strange thing, but even in our families, when something happens to us, even if it's unjust and we go to prison, you know, there's a tendency for the family to be embarrassed or upset at the victim, you know, in this case.
It's sort of like a kid who wrecks a car when he's 16, and the parents are mad at him for wrecking the car, but at the same time, you know, worried about him, you know, what kind of driving he's doing.
But so you get back to St. Louis.
I imagine when you got back to St. Louis, it was not as nice as Buckner.
Oh, the jails are not, I don't know, they're worse than prison.
So how long were you in that jail or any other jail before you were finally took your nolo contendre, your no contest plea, and got out?
Well, I got back the 1st of March, 2005, and I took my nolo contendre plea the following April 15th.
So it was a month later.
A month and a half later.
And yet you didn't plead nolo contendre to the charges of fraud or the charges of conspiring to kill an FBI agent.
But once again, what exactly did you take the no contest plea?
What was the final charge?
One count of mail fraud and one count of crimes against the United States of America.
Crimes against the United States of America.
You know, there's not a more Soviet-sounding crime than crimes against the United States of America.
And as I say, almost identical to the Soviet Stalinist-era charges of crimes against the state or enemy of the state.
And actually, in your guilty plea, or rather your NOLO Contendre plea of the fraud charges, did they ever give you a dollar amount as to what you were responsible for?
Well, no, I kind of figured it out that it was like $20 or something, but they gave me absolutely no fines whatsoever.
I didn't have to reimburse anybody, and there was no criminal fines as a punishment.
So that was good.
And, you know, if they truly thought I had stolen a lot of money, you'd think there'd be some kind of fines or reimbursements attached.
So you didn't hand them a 20-buck bill going out of the courtroom, I guess, to cover your terrible crime there of defrauding the government.
What was the actual cost to you in terms of your personal wealth, your business, your family, but we're going to get into that in the next episode, in the next installment.
But how much did all of this end up costing you for legal fees and so forth over the eight years you were in prison?
Do you have any idea?
Well, it exhausted all of my retirement account and legal fees, and I lost everything, my home and my dental practice.
And the lawyers still wanted more money out of me.
Barry Short wanted more money.
I didn't have any more money, so he tried to quit, and we had to have a hearing, ex parte hearing, and I explained my whole position financially to the judge.
And so he appointed Barry Short as my attorney to be paid by the government.
So basically, you were ruined by this financially over a $20 fraud charge, which, by the way, if it had been a shoplifting charge, it wouldn't have even reached a felony level.
And you wouldn't have even, very likely wouldn't have even gone to jail for a day over $20 shoplifting or anything of that amount.
So clearly a case of government persecution rather than prosecution.
Dr. Sell, the last five minutes, I would like to ask, like two minutes, Earl of Shaw, is he available?
Here he is.
Okay, thank you, Dr. Sell.
And once again, we'll be continuing this interview with Earl.
Hello.
Earl, are you there?
I am.
Hi, Bill.
We have you on the air, Earl.
And I wanted to ask you a quick question.
It's a pleasure to be with you guys.
Oh, it's great to have you on.
We love you.
You know, we love you.
And by the way, tell your wife, I've still got the clock.
I'm still working on it.
It'll be on the way.
Okay, good.
I've not forgotten.
I'm going to talk to my agent about my fee schedule.
We'll go ahead and touch about that later.
Quick question.
Representative Aiken in Missouri.
I've heard a lot of press about him and his slight misstatement about rape, which has been blown out of proportion.
The whole country knows about that.
What are his chances of winning the election in Missouri?
I think he's going to win it.
I do too.
And I've noticed that of all that's been said about Aiken, nothing has been said about the polls regarding his prospects as the next United States Senator.
What about his opponent, Liberal Democrat woman, correct?
Extremely liberal.
She's a big fan of Obama.
She voted for Obamacare.
But can we go back?
Let's go back for a second to this misstatement of his.
One minute.
We've got about one minute, Earl.
Go ahead.
All right.
The people that are advising Todd, that were advising Todd Aiken to withdraw from the race are the same people across the aisle to vote with the Democrats to censure Joe McCarthy.
They talked Nixon into resigning.
They talked Reagan into raising taxes in 1986.
They talked Bush into raising taxes in 1990.
And they talked Bush II into supporting amnesty for illegal aliens.
And then they talked John McCain into being nice to Barack Obama when he ran against him for president.
This is the establishment of Republicans.
They're more dangerous to the conservative movement than the Democrats, because at least with the Democrats, we know who they are and where they are.
Right.
Real quick thing.
Here in Tennessee, there's a controversy over the Democratic nominee who is running against Bob Corker, the Republican incumbent for United States Senator.
And this man has been called by the SPLC a member of a hate group that supposedly opposes homosexuality.
And so I'm voting for the Democrat.
He's actually the man to beat, as far as I'm concerned, because he's more conservative than our Republican incumbent.
Bill, I wouldn't question your judgment on that score.
Oh, no, I think he's the right man.
And the Democrats are really embarrassed, and you've seen nothing about it in the national media, but they've actually tried to get him off the ballot so far and been able to do it.
So, you know, it's not just Aiken who's under attack.
There's a Democrat here in Tennessee who's a member of a hate group, according to the SPLC, and he may actually take it from Corker.
Thank you to Dr. Tom Sell.
Thank you to the last Earl of Shaw.
I'm Bill Rowland saying goodnight for James Edwards.