Aug. 11, 2012 - The Political Cesspool - James Edwards
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Welcome to the Political Cesspool, known worldwide as the South's foremost populous radio program.
And here to guide you through the murky waters of the political cesspool is your host, James Edwards.
And welcome back, everybody.
This is Bill Rowland, sitting in for the last segment for James Edwards, whose busy fingers are doing work for future shows and for the website.
And he's going to be sitting silently next to me, which I don't know whether you consider that an insult or what, but he's done enough work for tonight, so I'm going to pick up the last hour so he can take it on.
And of course, tonight, ladies and gentlemen, we continue our series of interviews with Dr. Tom Sell, a man who can truly be called a political prisoner, an enemy of the state, and a man who was persecuted by the federal government over an eight-year period, imprisoned without a trial and accused of crimes he did not commit.
And the reason that he was imprisoned will become evident to you possibly in the next episode.
But we've continued this series because his ordeal is so fascinating, so tragic, so heartbreaking, and so disturbing that it's going to go on until his story is told.
And Dr. Tom, I know we have you on the air.
Welcome back to the Political Cesspool.
Hi.
And, you know, the last time we broke off, we had talked about your appearance on Dateline NBC and the fact that you had won at the Supreme Court level your challenge to the government policy of drugging prisoners to make them competent to stand trial, a truly Orwellian concept.
And I wanted to share this with you and get your thoughts on this, Dr. Sell.
But I read today that a few days ago, Jared Lofner, the young man who killed six people and wounded Congresswoman Gabby Giffords in Arizona, has pleaded guilty to those crimes.
Now, what's interesting about that is for the last couple of months, he's been held in the Springfield Mental Facility in Springfield, Missouri.
And that only a short while ago, he was entering a not guilty plea.
But after being examined by a psychiatrist, it was determined that he was competent to stand trial.
And once that was established, he immediately pleaded guilty.
Does that sound like something that might have happened to other people in the prison while you were there?
Oh, quite possibly, yes.
They, you know, people that you would think would be incompetent, they labeled as competent.
And they pled guilty, quite a few.
Well, I would think that the government's purpose in this was to actually send him to prison and not risk the possibility of a judge declaring him incompetent to stand trial for many years to come, because then he would have to spend his time in a real mental facility, mental institution.
And clearly, they wanted to nail him to the wall for his attack on the congresswoman primarily.
But it's my thought, in my opinion, judging from what I know about Jared Lofner, that he was at least schizophrenic, possibly delusional, certainly delusional, and possibly a paranoid schizophrenic.
And judging by his behavior before the shooting and subsequent to the shooting.
So it seems to me that it's very possible that he was heavily drugged and simply sleepwalking through this whole process.
And some psychiatrists said, oh, yes, he's competent to stay on trial.
He may be catatonic, but he's competent to stay on trial.
Well, I don't know anything specific about his case.
Perhaps they did medicate him with these anti-psychotic drugs for a period of time and then declared that the anti-psychotic drugs had relieved his mental impairment and that now he was competent to stand trial.
I don't know the specifics of that case, but I'll tell you this much.
Those psychiatrists and psychologists worked hand in hand with the prosecutors to decide how they would label people.
And if they thought they didn't have a clear-cut case to present a trial, then they would certainly keep them incompetent for as long as necessary so they didn't have to go to trial, but could still keep them imprisoned.
On the other hand, I certainly think the Springfield Federal Middle Medical Springfield Federal Medical Center is a very sinister place on par with Lubianca prison or some of the notorious prisons used by the Soviet Union to drug and to torture their citizens.
It certainly sounds like Springfield Federal Medical Center fills that description.
Now, Dr. Sell, we want to get back to your story now.
Where we left off last time was the fact that you had been on Dateline NBC.
They had covered the story of you and the attempts by the government to force you to take medications to make you, quote, competent, unquote, to stand trial, even though you had passed a battery of exams that demonstrated or I would think proved that in fact you were not insane or mentally incompetent.
But that didn't stop the government from pursuing its aggressive tactic of trying to portray you as insane.
But ultimately, you won at the Supreme Court level, which was an absolutely enormous victory for all American citizens, not just you, in terms of how they would go to trial and how they might be able to be represented in court.
I wanted to ask you, and frankly, I don't remember, but were you, did the subject of Waco come up during your interview with NBC News with Dateline?
Or did you mention it at the time?
Yes.
I had told the psychologist that perhaps the reason that the FBI was so intent on prosecuting me was because I had been called up for active duty during the time of Waco and sent to San Antonio where they have the burn clinic there.
And my luggage was misset, so I didn't have my uniform with me.
And so they told me to go sit in this room Monday.
On that Monday, I witnessed on a closed-circuit TV that was going on, I saw the Army tanks shooting flamethrowers into that Waco compound.
And I had seen this on the closed-circuit TV, and so I thought that the FBI wanted me to be insane because I could testify that the FBI did kill all those women and children.
Let's make this clear.
They said that was a delusion, and therefore the delusion needed to be, because I held this delusion, I needed to be force-medicated in order to be confident to stand trial.
Now, let's make this clear to the audience.
You were deployed to Waco to San Antonio prior to the government assault on the compound.
Yes.
I received orders prior to that.
All right, Dr. Sell, we've got a break.
We'll be right back.
This is where the story really gets interesting, folks.
Stay with us.
We'll be right back after these messages and our interview with Dr. Tom Sell.
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And here's the host of the Political Cess Pool, James Edwards.
And welcome back, everybody.
This is Bill Rowland, sitting in for James Edwards in the last hour of the show and continuing my series of interviews with Dr. Tom Sell.
If you've heard the shows that we've done so far, you will absolutely be convinced that Dr. Sell is truly an American political prisoner, an enemy of the state, very similar to the situation that existed in the Soviet Union when the Soviet and the government, the communists, would simply make people disappear, declare them enemies of the state, and send them off to gulags to be worked to death or to simply disappear.
Now, Dr. Sell, as we were discussing just before the break, you had been deployed as a dentist to San Antonio to the situation or the confrontation at Waco between the government and the David Koresh.
And you were deployed there prior to the government assault on the compound.
Now, what is important here is what were your skills such that you would be deployed as a dentist to that area by the United States Army?
Why would the Army need a dentist to be sent to Waco?
I had been taught at Walter Reed Hospital to forensically identify burn victims through their dental records.
And they didn't actually say on my orders that this was why I was called up.
They just had me there on a, I was just there.
And I later put two and two together that that must have been the reason they had me there on that specific day at that specific time just in case they needed me there.
But that never did occur.
And I want to make it clear, I'm no advocate of David Koresh.
And, you know, I wasn't someone sympathetic to his cause or anything.
This just came up as a reason why I thought the FBI might be pursuing their aggression against me.
Now, you were deployed to Waco prior to all the persecution you suffered by the government.
Oh, yeah.
This was in 1993.
And when did the government actually storm your office?
And when was it again?
What year was it they actually stormed your office and took you out in front of your patients?
April of 1997.
Okay.
And in the time between 93 and 97, had you been talking about Waco?
Had you discussed with anybody the fact that you had been sent down there prior to the fire as a ostensibly as a forensic dentist to identify burn victims?
Not in public, no.
But there were people aware that you'd been down there, clearly.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, I think that this is where the story really gets interesting, because there seems to have been no motive for the government to carry out such an aggressive and brutal arrest in a dentist's office over what was allegedly less than $100 worth of Medicare or insurance fraud.
I don't know where the government would ever prosecute somebody for such a small amount of money.
I don't even think shoplifters get arrested anymore for less than $200 or $300 worth of stolen merchandise.
So it begins to stretch credibility to believe that you would have been prosecuted and pursued by the government for a few dollars worth of Medicare fraud,
allegedly, as they claim, and then later to absolutely nail you to the wall that they would conspire to charge you with an attempted murder or contracting someone to kill an FBI agent.
They continued to ramp up the charges.
What are your thoughts on that?
I mean, do you see any other connections?
It was totally ridiculous.
When they first came, they had no idea what they were looking for, what they were going to charge me with.
They were totally on a fishing expedition and seized all my records, and they spent hundreds and hundreds of hours going through these records with a fine-tooth comb.
They spent months going to, oh, I don't know, 75 or more of my patients going to their homes to interview them to see if they could find anyone that would say bad things about me or that would say I had billed for services that weren't done.
They didn't find any.
Why would the government, the FBI, spend so much money and so much time pursuing this when, you know, all you hear about the FBI is that they're after terrorists who are out to mass murder people and millions of dollars of institutional and bank fraud.
You hear about that, but why they spent so much money, so much effort, so much time in investigating me?
What was the purpose of just a simple, plain, ordinary dentist to do this?
Dr. Sell, do you have any idea or do you know of any other cases similar to yours where a doctor or dentist or somebody in the medical profession was charged with Medicare fraud for such a, you know, an insignificant amount of money?
I mean, in the most cases of Medicare fraud that I've heard about that were committed by doctors, in many cases, it had to do with prescription medications in the first place.
And second, it had to do with procedures that were not performed.
But in almost every case, these prosecutions were based on hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fraud, or at least in the tens of thousands.
Certainly not the amount that you mentioned to me of $30 or $40, less than $100.
Wouldn't that normally be something that would simply be corrected or they simply would have denied the claim?
Well, yes, I have never heard of anything like this.
I have heard, like you say, of doctors who had done thousands and thousands of dollars.
They never found any prescription improprieties as far as I was concerned.
They did allegedly hit me with, I think, 63 counts of fraud, but when they finally went to court at the very end, they dropped all but one count.
And even at the very beginning, they said if I would plead guilty, they'd drop all the counts against my wife and all the counts save one against me if I would just plead guilty.
But I said, I can't swear under oath that I'm guilty when I'm not guilty.
And so it was the amount of money involved was trivial.
And in 99% of this, I could explain what I was billing for.
The work was actually done using the latest scientific techniques.
Well, I know from experience that an insurance company or the federal government in a case like that would simply not pay you.
If they really suspected that it was an improper procedure or something that wasn't covered, they just wouldn't pay you.
And that the only time that they would pursue prosecution is when there was a massive, you know, that is, for instance, that someone that supposedly received treatment didn't exist or had been dead or was actually an alias of someone else.
And that's clear case of fraud.
But in your case, it was some trivial amount of money that very easily could have just been not paid.
But let me ask you about your wife.
Now, at what point, eventually they took your wife into custody?
Yes.
And they charged her with conspiracy to commit murder also?
Yes.
And tell me a little about your wife's experience.
I think we're coming up on a break, but you can sort of introduce us to the...
Well, they told her she'd never be able to raise our children.
Okay, Dr. Sell, we're on break.
We'll be right back after these messages.
This is Bill Rowland with the Political Cesspool.
Stay tuned.
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We gotta get out of this place.
And welcome back to the most exciting three hours on Network Radio, the political cesspool.
And I'm Bill Rowlands sitting in the last hour for James Edwards.
And joining me tonight, continuing our series of interviews with him is Dr. Tom Sell, a true American political prisoner, a man who was persecuted by the United States government simply because he didn't fit into their expectations, I would imagine.
It's the best way I know how to put it.
And I think certainly with the explanations he has given us and told us about his case, clearly indicates that the government was out to get him, to make him an enemy of the state.
Dr. Sell, just before the break, we had gotten into the fact that eventually the government went after your wife and tried to implicate her into the crimes with which they were accusing you of committing.
And at what point did they really start after your wife?
And at what point did they actually come to the house and take her into custody?
I believe it was April of 1998.
And she put her in St. Genevieve County jail.
And of course, she had a lawyer.
She had to pay $60,000 for this attorney.
And they told her we had very young children of tender age that she wouldn't be able to raise these children for years and years unless she pled guilty.
So when they took her into custody, what exactly was she charged with?
I think she was charged with male fraud.
I'm not exactly sure because I was locked up at the time, you know, myself.
And so they just were out of communication and totally separated.
But clearly, this was an attempt to coerce you into entering a plea.
No, it was an attempt to coerce her into testifying against me.
And they promised her, if she would just totally cooperate with them and proffer out that they would let her go.
She would be able to go home and she would not go to prison and she'd be able to be with our children.
If she did not cooperate, she would never see these children again for years and years.
They'd grow up without her.
And, of course, her lawyers were 100% in favor of the government's plan.
They had no loyalties to me whatsoever.
Once again, this is what happened to your wife is exactly the kind of methods that were used in the Soviet Union to condemn political prisoners.
Exactly the same method.
There's no difference.
Dr. Sell, your wife was held in custody.
How long did she remain in jail?
For months, six months, seven months, for a long time that she was in jail while they pressured and pressured her.
And she refused to cooperate.
I mean, she refused to go along with the government plan.
She did for a long time.
And then finally, they promised, you know, she would be set free and she wouldn't have to go to prison.
So she cooperated and they let her go.
And what was the extent of her cooperation?
I mean, I fully understand that she was in an absolutely, you know, an absolutely desperate position, not being threatened with losing her children and your children and never seeing them again.
I can't think of any mother who wouldn't cave into that kind of pressure.
But what was the extent of her cooperation?
She had to plead guilty, I believe, to seven counts of fraud and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and testify against me in court.
Other than that, I don't know what her extent was because I was never allowed to talk to her.
Well, what exactly was the evidence against her?
I mean, was this more...
There was no evidence against her at all, as far as I was concerned.
She never did anything wrong.
She worked at my office, but, you know, they didn't have any evidence against her.
They tried to get evidence against her by having people surrounding her that were wired to the FBI to get things on tape.
I listened to those tapes.
I never heard any incriminating evidence against her.
But, you know, you can keep a young lady in prison and not letting her see her family or children and tell her all these things for only so long before she cracks.
She wasn't an officer of the United States Army.
She wasn't trained to hold up under interrogation and enemy brainwashing tactics.
She was just a mother who wanted to be with her children.
And where were your children at this time?
They were living with their aunt.
Well, at least they weren't taken into social services and farmed out to foster parents who, God knows what would have happened to them in that situation.
But, you know, you mentioned mail fraud.
Mail fraud is one of the alleged crimes that is very easy for the government to bring against somebody based on absolutely frivolous causes.
I mean, mail fraud is one of those very broad crimes that can catch almost anyone in its net.
They can catch anybody in the net of mail fraud, very similar to the way they catch people for supposedly not paying income tax or a number of other crimes.
But I think it's interesting that they charge it with mail fraud because I know that that's very often how they pursue people they can't get through any other cause.
Now, Dr. Sell, revisiting the Waco situation.
You were at Waco.
You saw on the monitor the fire at the Quresh compound.
And what were your thoughts at that point?
You must have thought, now they're going to need me, right?
Well, they didn't need me.
And then my uniform conveniently appeared that evening.
It had been sent to San Diego instead of San Antonio.
And, you know, instead of sending me on TWA Airlines that they normally do, they stuck me on Southwest.
As soon as I got out of my car, there was a porter who took my bags.
Oh, I'll take these.
So it just seemed suspicious to me at the time.
But then I went about my normal business.
And, you know, I wasn't in a position to really do anything.
I just knew that this was the situation.
I felt really bad.
Felt horrible that my government would do such a thing.
But, you know, who am I to judge?
And that's really about the extent of it.
Did you actually conduct any forensic examinations of the victims at Waco?
No, no forensic identifications were done whatsoever.
So after you'd been there a while, what exactly did you do in regards to what happened there?
Nothing in regards to what happened there.
I just treated patients in the United States Army for their dental conditions.
And so, but they sent you to San Antonio to do that.
That seems kind of bizarre.
Well, they sent me to San Antonio before.
I see.
But you were there just prior to the Waco.
I was there on the exact day.
I arrived the night before.
Then Monday came, and that was the day they did it.
Now, am I correct that while you were being prosecuted by the government, while they were pursuing these charges against you, that they claimed or that they had stated that you had lied about being there at Waco and that, in fact, that this was part of your delusion?
Yes.
And at one of the hearings to determine my competency to be forced medicated, my incompetency caused me to be forced medicated.
I presented all these records, my orders, my history of being in the military, my military records, volumes.
I presented this to the psychiatrist conducting the hearing.
And lo and behold, I found out months later when I went to the magistrate judge on appeal of that hearing, none of those records followed me.
So the judge, Edelman, doing the hearing on my forced medication, never received those records.
I found that out.
And when I complained and complained, written complaints, they said that I never presented those records.
But then when I presented the transcripts of the hearing at the prison, it clearly stated that I presented those records.
Dr. Sell, we've got a break coming up.
We'll be right back.
More of this story.
You're listening to the Political Cesspool.
Stay tuned.
Don't go away.
The Political Cesspool guys will be back right after these messages.
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Welcome back.
To get on the political cesspool, call us on James's Dime, toll-free, at 1-866-986-6397.
And here's the host of the Political Cess Pool, James Edwards.
Once again, welcome back for the last 15 minutes of the show, everybody.
This is Bill Rowland sitting in for James Edwards for the continuing interviews with Dr. Tom Sell, American Political Prisoner.
Dr. Sell, when we broke off last, you were telling us about the government denying that you had actually been at Waco at the time of the assault on the compound there, the David Koresh compound, and that this became something that you had to fight to get made known to the judge, and that they were actually saying you were delusional for saying this?
Yes, and so I proved that I did present these records and these orders that proved where I was when I was.
And what they said was, well, the psychiatrist who was conducting the hearing recently retired after that hearing.
And months and months later, they found those records behind a file cabinet in his home.
So they lost those records.
It took me months and months of continuously writing and telling them that I know those records were presented before they finally admitted that they found those records conveniently lost behind the file cabinet in his home.
And that's just one example of how records and evidence that is in support of a defendant mysteriously disappears.
Or not so mysteriously disappear, perhaps put away so they couldn't be found.
Well, now, when those records were brought to court, did that anyway change the judge's stance or change how the evidence was presented or how you were regarded by the court or the prosecution or anything?
Well, the hearings had already taken place.
It was way after the fact.
These records had been missing for a long, long time.
So they didn't get presented as evidence in any way.
They were conveniently lost throughout the hearing.
They were presented on as evidence.
And as time progressed, you know, the only reason I was after 13 months straight of being in the solitary confinement was because the district judge Storr said that although I was mentally incompetent and needed forced medication, I was not dangerous.
And so they had to release me from the hole and put me back into general population.
They still wanted to force medicate me, so it had to go to the appellate court.
Of course, in between this time, 9-11 took place, so there was even more delays in the court procedures.
But eventually, it did course its way to the Supreme Court.
And in July of 2003, the Supreme Court came down, 6-3 on my side, that I could not be forced medicated.
And they listed four reasons only why a person could be forced medicated.
There were very, very stringent, strict reasons, such as perhaps that man you pointed out who shot in Arizona.
Certainly I had no dangerous, you know, nothing like that was proposed against me, accused against me.
And so they said I could not be forced medicated.
Well, the next day, when I walked out onto the main yard where there were hundreds of prisoners, they all said, hooray for Dr. Sell, no more forced medication.
They were all screaming and yelling.
And I was very, you know, very impressed.
It was a very inspirational moment in my life to have hundreds of prisoners in a yard all cheering for me.
And Lieutenant Steele, one of the officer guards there, pulled me inside into the tunnel and said, how would you like to be written up for inciting a riot?
I said, really, there's nothing you can do that would take away this great moment in my life.
You saw what happened out there that really impressed me.
And, you know, of course, they were always threatening me.
I went into the hole many, many times subsequent to that on all kinds of charges, but they could never make any of the charges stick because I was incompetent.
So I would just languish there in the hole in solitary confinement many times.
Was there a significant difference in the way they trumped up charges against you and, say, the other prisoners or most other prisoners?
I think all charges are trumped up on an uneven playing field, you know.
But surely many of those people there were guilty of bank robbery or drug trafficking, what have you.
I really didn't know other people's specific legal cases that much, but I believe there were many innocent people there, too.
They seem to really have it out.
Mostly anyone who was a minister, anyone in the religion, anyone who was an officer in the military, anyone who was a doctor was treated more harshly than the other people.
The guards seemed to hate professionals and anyone with an education more than anybody else.
Well, do you think it's possible that many of these people, too, were, let's say, enemies of the state, that for some reason they were being given the same treatment you suffered because of political beliefs or because they got on the wrong side of the federal government in some way and were not really guilty of any specific charges?
I met people who were Secret Service agents and who were members of the militia who claimed that.
So even members of the Secret Service, now, we have to think, are among the most investigated people in terms of background that you could imagine.
That is, they would be put through an exhaustive series of investigations to make sure that they weren't going to shoot the man who they were trying to protect.
So how many, there were more than one Secret Service agent actually in the same facility?
No, I think I met one Secret Service agent.
I saw another person who was in the CIA who was identified to me as a member of the CIA through a mutual acquaintance there in prison.
You know, I really didn't have a chance to, I mean, I didn't meet that many people.
Most of the people were just common, I guess I could say common prisoners in there for common types of crime.
Well, Dr. Sell, we only have a few minutes left in this particular episode, but I'd like, give your thoughts on the criminal justice system in this country in general.
I mean, do you think it's more and more becoming politicized and more and more innocent people are being locked up?
I don't know what it is now.
I've just stayed at home and stayed out of trouble.
I don't, you know, get involved with, I'm not involved with it now, but certainly back then it was just horrible.
I'm sure it's horrible now also.
I don't see why it would have changed any.
They, you know, torture and very bad mistreatment that's certainly against the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution does go on, especially at Springfield, where it doesn't have to go on.
Because I was at Buttner for a while and it did not go on there.
So, you know, it did go on at Springfield.
It did not go on at Buttner.
And, you know, it's just terrible.
It's a very uneven playing field.
And they just ruin people's financial lives, their family lives.
And, you know, I'm sure if I had been taking that medication, it would have ruined my mental and physical health.
Well, as I said at the beginning of our interview, it seems to me that the Springfield Medical Center, Federal Medical Center, is a very sinister, dangerous, and evil place, and a place where people are sent, it seems, more for what they didn't do than what they did do.
Could you see that as a possibility?
Yeah, for many people it was.
You know, I do believe.
You know, some people were just ranchers who were rounded up and sent back to prison for violating their probation with firearms.
And, you know, now they were there for lengthy prison sentences and what have you.
But there were other people who were guilty of, you know, bank robbery and murders and drug-related offenses and things like that.
Not everybody there is innocent, although most, you know, most, there were, I am sure, a lot of people.
Dr. Sell, we're out of time.
We'll be back next week continuing this series.
And for James Edwards, happy landing, everybody.
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