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Feb. 17, 2023 - Tulsi Gabbard Show
01:15:36
No free speech in the C-suite: The firing of Levi’s President Jen Sey
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If you violate one bit of the orthodoxy from the party, you are all the other things.
And a violation could be asking a question because the Democratic Party platform was schools need to stay closed forever and ever until there's no more COVID or you're a murderer.
I mean, it doesn't even make any sense.
If you've been listening to anything that I've been talking about, even just a little bit, you'll know that I talk a lot about the importance of the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Now, I talk about these things because these founding documents serve as the fundamental foundation for this country, that when our founders put pen to paper, very thoughtfully and with great debate amongst themselves, they enshrined our God-given rights in these founding documents.
Because they recognize that they are timeless and that no matter where our country went in the future, that these rights are fundamental to who we are as a country and to who we are as Americans.
Now, the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights guarantees our right to free speech, our right to express ourselves as we choose without fear of persecution or limitation from the government.
Unfortunately, we live in a time now in this country where cancel culture rules the day, where people are put in a position they feel like they have to censor themselves, whether it be at home amongst family, at work, or at school, for fear of the repercussions of saying something that happens to offend someone or happens to not go along with the mainstream.
So, this begs the question of what is the role and responsibility in our society of those in the private sector, whether they be corporate leaders, business owners, or education leaders, principals at schools, to do their part to encourage free speech in our society.
for them to not threaten someone with their job because they say something that the bosses don't agree with.
For someone, a student, whether it be K-12 or in college, to not be concerned about what they're saying, not only on campus, but also after hours for fear that they may be suspended.
Because the reality is that this fear exists because people are being punished.
People are losing their jobs for things that they say.
Kids are being suspended from schools for things that they tweet out after hours.
The threat to our free speech is coming from many different directions in our society.
You might ask, how do we stand up against those seeking to take away our right to free speech?
The answer is to speak more, to exercise our voices, to not back down in the face of those who seek to silence us.
Now my conversation today is with somebody who has personal experience with this.
Jen Say was the president of global marketing for one of the most well-known brands in the world.
She was next in line to become the CEO of this global corporation until she started saying the wrong things.
Now you'll hear a lot more about her story from her directly, but the thing that I hope you take away from this conversation is how she, in her own life, even at risk of great cost to herself and her family, chose to take a stand for what she believes in and not back down to those who threatened her.
She sought to take a stand against those who were trying to silence her by using her voice more loudly.
Here's my conversation with Jennifer Say.
Hi, Jen.
Hi, Tulsi.
Hi.
Nice to meet you.
I'm good.
Likewise.
Finally.
I'm sorry this took so long to finally get together.
No worries.
Everyone's busy.
You especially.
First of all, thank you for reaching out and for just having courage.
Oh, well thank you.
When I heard your, when I hit play on that video, I like wept.
It just makes you feel less alone.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And not crazy.
Right.
Even though you're being told you're crazy by, unfortunately, like in your case and I have experienced, just reading your book, there are a lot of things that We have in common that things that have happened to you, people you're very close to, family members who you've lost.
I've gone through many of those things and just that.
The people around you calling you names and coming after you.
I thank you for sharing that.
I know that there are so many people who read your book, which is powerful, by the way, who also felt the same.
Yeah, I hear from a lot of people.
Yeah, it keeps you going, you know?
Even when things play out and what you were saying was true all along and you were right, it doesn't matter.
Somehow it doesn't matter.
Truth seems to have been lost in this whole era.
And people are afraid of it.
Oh, yeah.
I know the truth is hard to hear sometimes, especially when it's something that you don't want to know or it's not comfortable or this or that.
But I think one of the scary things is...
The obvious truth, obvious objective right in your face, impossible to deny truth, is now like, no, that's actually not what it is.
And that, for me, I was watching Bill Maher over the weekend, and they were talking about why the D next to Democrat is toxic in some areas now.
That guy from Ohio who lost was on.
Tim Ryan.
Yeah, that guy.
And he was trying to explain it quite eloquently, and Bill kept coming up against it, but he wouldn't see it.
I mean, the fact is what you just described is why it's toxic.
Democrats demand that you ignore a fact that you can see right in your face and that you know to be true in favor of ideology.
They demand that you say, you know, I'll start with the most controversial, that there is no such thing as, you know, biological sex.
We know that's not true.
Everybody knows that's not true.
It's ridiculous.
They demand that we say foods are neutral.
There aren't foods that are better for you or worse for you.
Obesity is neutral.
It's not unhealthy.
These are not.
They demanded during COVID that we say closed schools.
Those aren't bad.
If you think they're bad, you're a racist.
No, no, they're bad.
And at a certain point, I think people like you and I, we can't abide the lie anymore.
You can't be too afraid to say that's a lie because we can't live in a lie.
Exactly.
And that's really, for those who haven't read your book yet, it's called Levi's Unbuttoned, The Woke Mob Took My Job But Gave Me My Voice.
It is a really interesting, and you really opened up in a really personal way throughout your book that I got to imagine was uncomfortable, to say the least, maybe in some parts, to put yourself in a position where you're sharing a lot about your own personal emotions and things you've went through, not only as the president of Levi's and what was the culmination of What was it, 23, 25 years at this company?
23 years.
23. But you also got into some really personal things as well.
So for those who haven't read the book, I really encourage you to check it out because...
In the telling of your story, you are raising some really important issues that too many people in positions of power, whether they be politicians or people in legacy media or, as you point out, in corporate America, are not only uncomfortable talking about or confronting, but in fact they are the ones perpetuating this culture of self-censorship and fear.
At a minimum.
Oh, for sure.
And to some extent, this culture of lies.
Because if they can attach themselves to the lies and wrap themselves in the lies and position themselves as social justice warriors, which I have news for you, not a single CEO is.
I don't care what they say.
You don't become a CEO if you don't want to make...
A lot of money.
I keep saying this to people.
Nobody makes $40 million by accident.
It just doesn't happen.
You have to mean it.
And so when these CEOs and business leaders and founders like Sam Bankman Freed wrap themselves in this cloak of wokeness, you can be sure it's a lie.
And it is a distraction and a diversion to avoid scrutiny.
And many of them do it for a very, very long time.
Why wasn't the press interrogating Bankman Freed's business, Holmes' business.
Why were they putting them on the cover of every magazine, writing Fawning Puff pieces?
Everybody bought into the lie, and it's like this loop.
You know, the foundations and the activists and the corporate leaders and the press, and they all just reinforce this message and get to feel really good about themselves, and it's a lie.
And what I don't understand is, why don't people care?
Why don't the employees care at the very least in these companies?
You know, there's a story I tell in the book and, you know, Levi's, it may not be the biggest company, the executives may not be the wealthiest, but it is the epitome of wokeness as far as these companies go.
I mean, they really set a standard there.
And in the depths of COVID, when all of our stores were closed, our CEO stood up and made a big deal about the fact that we had to lay off employees, which was understandable, right?
80% of our stores were closed.
I mean, business was really scary.
Our business was down 70%.
These are not numbers you ever think you're going to see as a business leader.
And he took great pains to say we were doing it with empathy, blah, blah, blah, and we laid off a thousand people, but then he cashed out $43 million worth of stock.
He himself did?
Yeah, because laying off people bolstered the bottom line and bolstered the stock price, and the stock went up, even though the business was challenged because we were doing the right thing for the business.
And so he cashed out $43 million in stock in that same time frame.
These two events were related to each other, if you see what I'm saying.
And yet, nobody cares.
They believe the lines and the lies and the charade and I don't really get why people tolerate it.
Yeah, I mean, I wonder how many people, like you said, maybe employees within the company, and I'm not talking about the C-suite people, but the employees within the company, how many of them feel like they can't say anything about it, either because they're afraid of what the consequences might be or because they feel like, hey, I show up at an outlet mall to sell Levi's as a part-time job.
What difference could I possibly make by saying anything about this?
Yeah, I think all of that is likely true.
And I think there is also a portion.
It's like bread and circus.
What's the phrase?
We throw out the line about we take care of employees and we have empathy and people buy the line.
I think there's a good portion.
And I'm not saying they're dumb to buy it.
They want to believe it.
We all want to believe in something bigger than ourselves.
And I think One thing I've observed is with the mass secularization of our culture, and I put myself in that, I'm not a religious person, but the religious impulse is still there.
And so we are inclined to believe in...
Something.
It might be a CEO. Right.
I think it's just that innate, I don't know, knowledge within each of us, whether you consider yourself a religious or spiritual person or not, that we are happier and more fulfilled as people when we are serving a greater purpose outside of ourselves.
Yes.
Whether it be a small circle of people or a large group of people, but has that positive impact outside of how can I just cravenly make as much money as possible so I can buy as much things as possible?
Yeah, absolutely.
We want to be part of something bigger than ourselves.
And I just see us falling for the wrong things of late.
There was a time, and I wrote about this at great length in the book, where people Being really rich was something that was...
Maybe it wasn't admired.
You weren't admired as a good person, but you were admired as a shrewd person, as a...
I don't know, as something.
Successful.
As a successful, ambitious person.
Now that's not really the case.
But those same people are still ambitious and still want to make a lot of money.
And they certainly like what affords them, what type of life that affords them.
But they have to...
Denounce it, in a sense, right?
Privilege is bad.
Right.
And so they have to pretend, oh no, I'm really, you know, I would have been in the Peace Corps, but I just happened to get this job.
I'm sure you would have, right?
They forced you in there.
They forced you to take that paycheck.
And I just felt like I could make more of a difference as a business leader.
And it's all a crock.
Yeah.
Yes, it is.
You know, but it's not, they have to denounce, everyone has to denounce their privilege.
And so you just have this trend in the last like 10 years, which really accelerated in the last three to five of these CEOs masquerading as social justice warriors.
And the employees love it.
Interesting.
So I want to pause here.
And for those who didn't see your initial announcement, that kind of really was breaking news when you decided to leave Levi's.
I mean, you worked in this company, literally climbed the ladder for 23 years.
All the way to the point where you were the president of the company and literally next in line expected to be appointed as the CEO. You were the CEO kind of in waiting until you started speaking your mind publicly Because your children, who are going to public school, were not able to go to school.
And that was unacceptable.
So you come from such a...
I mean, your position is really unique in the sense that, like I said, most people might feel afraid because...
You're working a 9-to-5 job, maybe making $15 or $20 an hour, and you're worried you're going to get fired if you say something.
And this is happening.
I mean, we see it pop up in the news all the time.
People tweet something out.
Or recently, oh gosh, I forget.
Tucker Carlson had a woman on his show who was fired for somebody that she was following on Twitter, and it started getting negative attention.
And so they let her go.
Yeah, I saw that.
A video game company.
Exactly.
Exactly.
But you were the elite.
I mean, you were one of those people in those positions where other people look up and be like, oh, well, you guys up there at the executive level are the ones who are perpetrating so much of the self-censorship that we're talking about.
Talking about it and everything else.
But in reality, what you experienced was even in those highest levels of power within one of the most well-known brands in America or the world being canceled and self-censorship.
And I just want to point, just bring up on the screen here.
This article that came up when you made your announcement that you chose to quit Levi's rather than allow them to let you go, pay you a million dollars to be silenced.
You chose to give that up in the cause of truth.
What happened?
Yeah, and speech.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, the long and short of it is, you know, I had been a long-time employee in 1999 is when I started entry-level.
You know, literally climbed up through the ranks.
It was an inhospitable environment to women for many, many years.
It's sort of atypical as a fashion company.
It was very sort of sales, male-led.
And I write about some of this in the book, but you push on through and you just try to be better and you try to get better.
And I mean, I loved it.
I loved the product.
I've worn it since I was probably seven years old.
I remember the 1984 Olympics, the US team was dressed in Levi's sweats.
I mean, it was like this magical brand to me that really stood for authenticity and sort of being yourself.
And it wasn't just me.
When I stepped into the Chief Marketing Officer role in 2013, and we were trying to kind of We were off our game.
The business was terrible, and that was part of my charge, is to bring it back.
That was my charge, not part of it.
We went around the world and talked to people.
People who love the brand, they always say that.
I feel like my best and most authentic self in Levi's.
I built a whole brand effort, campaign, advertising around it, and it worked.
We had a successful...
Initial public offering.
I mean, it was great.
I loved it, you know, and I loved leading a team, and I loved helping people build careers that were meaningful, and I had always been a political person and outspoken, but my views had been in line with San Francisco, where I lived, which is far, far left, and with Levi's, and so no one cared, and occasionally I would support a candidate that they were like, too far left, you know, but it was still a Democrat, so it was okay.
You know, in March 2020, I was a CMO. I was in my eighth year.
I was about to get promoted to brand president, which is the step to CEO. But literally, from day one of lockdowns, and California went first.
From day one, I was like, uh-uh.
This is wrong.
It is wrong.
It isn't going to work.
It's never going to end.
It's going to harm the most vulnerable people among us, the poor children.
And I just saw it out.
I read like crazy.
I mean, that's what makes me crazy now when people say, well, we couldn't have known.
Yeah, we actually could have if you actually bothered to read.
But real information was suppressed.
And anyone who offered an alternative point of view, really well-established doctors were...
You know, deemed fringe and crazy.
I mean, so what do you think is going to happen to someone like me, right?
But very early, I was very outspoken about schools and playgrounds in particular.
I was opposed to all of it, but I thought if I focus my energy and attention on children, maybe I can build a bridge.
Because people just were like insane, you know?
But it's hard to describe the fervor in San Francisco.
If you even asked a question, are we sure this is best?
You were a racist murderer, an anti-vaxxer.
Even before the vaccine, I was called an anti-vaxxer.
You were a conspiracy theorist.
You were all these things.
But I thought children, like don't we all care about kids?
That's what I thought.
I thought kids were not partisan, not political.
Boy, was I wrong.
But I was outspoken.
And it took about six months for anybody to say anything to me.
And then I got a call, which I knew was coming.
And, you know, it was on social media, but then they started to show me on the local news, and I wrote op-eds, and I started to lead rallies and all this stuff.
And I was told, the first call, which was one of many, was, you know when you speak, you speak on behalf of the company.
And I said, no, I don't.
I'm a mom.
Four public school kids.
50-some-odd thousand public school children, 60% of whom are low-income in San Francisco.
I'm speaking on their behalf.
I never used my title.
None of it.
Well, you really need to think about it.
It's going to impact the reputation, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway, at that point in the fall, when I started getting the calls, all of my peers sent their kids back to in-person private school.
So I thought, okay, now they'll see it.
Right.
Not so much.
And that just enraged me.
Because it was like they were telling me, all the values they pretended to espouse about equality and inclusion and everything they stood up and said about fighting racism in the summer of 2020, none of it meant anything.
None of it mattered.
Because the one thing we could have done to...
Actually fight racism and classism was to get the schools open and to advocate for them.
Because 60% of the children are low income in these public schools.
Anyway, they kept urging me to stop.
I kept refusing to stop.
On that note, I just want to point to the response that you got, that you include in your book, the response that you got.
I know this wasn't the first time you raised it, but when you pointed out, like, hey, let's use our influence as a company to encourage them to to reopen public schools and the response that you got was no, we don't really want to do that because it might make us look bad by exposing how many of us send our kids to private schools.
I mean, you just said the quiet part out loud.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And that was the driver in their decision to not do anything about it.
Even as they were sending their kids back to school and they were probably pretty relieved and like, okay, fine, this is great.
They can get back to schools and studies and we can go back to work and all this other stuff.
It's always the driver.
Double standard, right.
Reputation is always the driver.
That's sort of the point.
That's why it's all a pose.
It's a charade.
It's always reputation.
And part of me is like, how dumb do you think everybody is?
You think they don't know you send your kids to private school?
Yeah, exactly.
They're stunned.
I do.
That's really what's shocking to people is that I do.
Nobody cares.
And you're standing up for all these causes and you're not part of that group either.
You're pledging to fight racism and you're fighting for LGBTQ equality and all these things and none of you are members of those groups.
So why do you have to...
What's the difference?
But it just...
It was just...
And to this day, it remains somewhat unacceptable, although there's starting to be, you know, some acknowledgement and recognition that the closed schools were a terrible, terrible idea.
There is no ownership of that decision or apology.
There's no accountability.
There's this sort of pretend, well, we didn't know.
It just happened.
COVID did it.
But COVID didn't do it.
A person decided to keep the schools closed.
Right.
Because some leaders didn't decide to do that, and they fought tooth and nail to get them open, and that was the right decision.
And not just Ron DeSantis, but Sweden.
You know, I mean, like, countries I thought we admired.
So anyway, it went on like this for about 18 months.
In the middle of it, I did get promoted.
And so, you know, to sort of address what you said earlier about, like, a regular work-a-day employee...
My feeling is, because a lot of people have said to me, well, you have a different obligation.
You were the president.
My response is, if I can't do it, a person with a tremendous amount of stature in the company, and not just because of my title, but people really liked me.
I'd been there a long time.
I really cared about people.
I walked the walk, all that stuff.
If I can't do it, no one can.
That should concern us all.
I don't have a different obligation.
I didn't have a contract saying I couldn't do any of these things.
Anyway, it really went south when I went on the Laura Ingram show.
As you might imagine.
Well, that was your first offense, having the audacity to go on Fox News and Laura Ingram show.
Yeah, I moved my family to Denver in the spring of 21 so the kids could go to school, and it got a little bit of national attention, and she invited me on the show.
And she's great, by the way.
I say that with some sarcasm.
I respect her.
I recognize it.
She was very early.
I think maybe the first national...
Kind of news personality to say, like really right from the get-go to say, this is not right, what we're doing to children with lockdowns.
But anyway, I agreed to go on.
I talked to my fellow open schools moms, and many of us are disaffected lefties like you.
And we said, we should do it.
You should do it.
You'll be able to handle yourself.
You're media trained.
And no one would invite us on.
You know, we had tried.
We had tried.
You know, there were all these stories featuring Randy Weingarten and, you know, whatever, doctor.
And it was all about how if you open the schools, all the children and teachers are going to die.
I mean, that was basically the gist.
And we begged to have a parent on that was seeing what was happening, you know, with children on the ground.
And no one would.
So I accepted the offer.
I'm proud of what I said.
I'm glad she had me on.
I stand by everything I said.
I'd say it again to her.
But it just, it set the employees aflame.
And even when they acknowledged that there was nothing wrong with what I said, I was considered the enemy now because I had spoken with the enemy.
That's a quote.
Wow.
And that points to the reality that I have seen and continue to experience, but that we see.
I mean, this is very specifically about your experience during COVID with your children and schools, but almost everything that you're saying here can be applied to many of these other issues that...
Whether it's the insane leaders of today's Democratic Party or the woke people in legacy media or in big tech, across the board, I've experienced this for a very long time when speaking out against these counterproductive wars that are incredibly costly to my brothers and sisters in uniform and to our country,
to speak of people in other countries, and that do nothing to To serve our country's security interests and in many cases actually undermine it just for asking questions, just for challenging and saying, are we sure that this is the best approach to take?
Are we certain that this is actually serving the interests of the American people?
Immediately labeled, you know, you're a traitor, you're committing treason, you're a Russian asset, you're this, you're that.
And it just points to why is it that that's the response?
Why is the response name-calling?
Why is the response anger?
Why is the response threatening someone's livelihood?
It's because they cannot, they don't have a ground to stand on to actually have a substantive conversation and substantive conversation.
Conversation and debate about whatever this...
The thing is.
Exactly.
Whatever the thing may be.
And there are a few of those things that it seems like across this spectrum of these people in positions of power, even though they're not the majority by numbers, they are the ones who are deciding what is the narrative, what is okay, what is acceptable, whereas everything else is something that has the potential to ruin you personally or professionally.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think you're exactly right, and that's what I say.
Like, why was I evil?
Why couldn't you disagree with what I was saying, but I wasn't evil and we could engage in a conversation?
Yeah.
It is the name-calling, and I was primarily called a racist.
That was their favorite.
But I also became, you know, QAnon, Trumper, anti-science, anti-mask, anti-vax, all of these things.
You were also called, and I actually made a note of this, because it struck me.
You were called, as you said, anti-trans.
You were called...
You were called like all of these things.
I'm like, wait, I don't see the through line here between you as a mom trying to get your kids back to school and all of these really, really, really horrible things that you're being called.
Well, because you described it.
I mean, I can describe the specifics in my case, but the broad strokes is if you violate one bit of the orthodoxy from the party, you are all the other things.
And a violation could be asking a question.
Because the Democratic Party platform was schools need to stay closed forever and ever until there's no more COVID or you're a murderer and you want...
Teachers and black children to die.
That's why I was a racist, because I didn't care if black children died, even though I have two black children.
I mean, it doesn't even make any sense.
It doesn't have to make sense.
Right.
That's the point.
It doesn't have to make sense.
But it shuts it down.
But what it does also, and I think is really the point, whether they know it or not, at a certain point, they realize, like, I wasn't going to stop.
You're not going to stop.
Like, they're not going to stop us.
But it sure as heck keeps everybody else quiet.
Exactly.
And that's really the point.
That's exactly the point.
The day after I resigned very publicly in San Francisco, three members of the San Francisco Board of Education were recalled incredibly decisively.
Margin of 70-75%.
Like, just crushing.
Because they didn't open the schools.
So all those parents agreed with me.
Silently at the ballot box.
But we need, and I know it is so scary, and it's really the whole reason I wanted to write the book was just to sort of encourage people just a little bit.
Like, I do think the people who can see the lie and have common sense and are willing to debate and discuss the issues, I think we're the majority.
We are.
But too many are just too afraid.
But if we did it together...
Exactly.
Exactly.
And at a minimum, like you said, people who are afraid to use their actual voices, we're able to exercise them at the ballot box, which matters in a huge way.
You know, so much attention is given to these national races and the ones that get a lot of the national media attention.
But, you know, we saw there in San Francisco, we've seen it in Virginia, we've seen it in other states and counties and cities in the country where, gosh, if you're concerned about what your kids are being taught in school or the policies or decisions that are being made, like go to the board of education meetings.
Go and vote in those elections.
Run for board of education.
Like actually be in that position where you are either making the decisions or you are influencing and pressuring those who are and.
And remembering that in this country, we as voters are the ones who have the power to hire and fire these elected officials at every single level of our government.
It's so sad and frustrating to be in a place, and I get it.
But so many people feel so disenfranchised and so helpless against the quote-unquote machine.
And I put leaders from both parties in that bucket in a lot of different areas.
The establishment, which encompasses government and the private sector, big media, big tech.
You look at all of that and it's no wonder people feel like...
My voice will not be heard.
My vote won't make a difference, but we're seeing how it does.
And frankly, it is the only thing.
It is the only thing at a time when our fundamental freedoms are being threatened by the most powerful people in this country.
It's the only thing that we can do to protect them, to speak up.
And that's what was so alarming during all of the lockdowns is fundamental rights You know, beyond the vote, but that you have as a citizen to object, to protest, they were taken away.
You couldn't protest the school closures.
You could protest Black Lives Matter, but you couldn't protest the school closures.
That was criminal and the police would show up.
But, you know, there are myriad ways for us to use our voices.
The vote is obviously the epitome of that.
And I'm so grateful those voters showed up and sent that strong message that this was not okay.
Board of Ed, you are not beholden to the teachers union.
You are beholden to the people that actually vote for you and elect you and you did not do your job.
But that was two years in.
Imagine if there had actually been a public conversation, a societal conversation about this issue, and parents were truly informed about the real risks or not risks to their children, they would have taken to the streets and they would have demanded that the schools open, and they would have opened at least a year sooner.
I suspect they would have opened in the fall of 2020. Right.
Or at least be empowered to make a decision for themselves.
Right?
Because every family is in a different situation in every respect as far as who may be more comfortable homeschooling their kids versus not and needing to send them to school.
Or who may have a family member who has immune compromised and they're like, well, we have to weigh the risks.
I love it.
Being informed to be able to make those decisions for themselves and actually taking a stand for that individual freedom of choice that we supposedly are supposed to have in this country.
Yeah, and we had no choice.
There was no choice.
They were just straight up closed for a full year and a half.
And I think, sadly, that process of silencing esteemed doctors and even normies like me or people that could read data, that had the impact of making people more afraid for their children than they actually needed to be.
And they terrorized parents.
It's cruel.
Yeah.
And not only that, sorry, go ahead.
They kept their kids home for literally isolated.
Yeah.
And to add insult to injury, they said, okay, well, even when we open the schools, these kids have to wear masks, whether they're indoors or outdoors, thinking and perpetuating, and this is not just kids, of course, but perpetuating the lie that a cloth mask is going to somehow protect you from getting or spreading COVID, for that matter.
Yeah.
Well, and at a certain point, frankly, it was just children.
I mean, honestly, in cities across the country, people could attend, you know, basketball games with 20,000, 25,000 people.
They could attend football games with 60,000 people.
Maskless, you know...
Drinking and partying and their two-year-old would have to go to preschool on Monday with a mask.
That's literally what happened.
And in New York right now, unless maybe they just ended, I might get my timing wrong, in New York City right now an unvaccinated parent cannot watch a high school basketball game that their child is playing in, but they can watch the Nets.
So the children have been punished more than anyone and that's what I find just so egregious.
Those least at risk...
From any harm, you know, real serious harm from this virus, which is very real, they have suffered the most and they have been impacted the most.
And in many instances, you know, we were told, oh, it's two weeks or two months, whatever.
You're selfish if you're arguing about this.
It isn't.
You know, I'm talking to these children now where I'm making a documentary film on the subject kids dropped out of high school.
Absenteeism is at an all-time high.
There are schools in San Francisco where the high schools have 90% chronic absenteeism.
Those children will not graduate.
This is going to be a generational problem.
And sure, if your kid was fairly well off and you had a pot at home, yes, a lot of kids will be fine.
But far too many, far too many will not be fine.
And this will impact them for the rest of their lives because, you know, if they don't graduate high school, their earning potential, their life expectancy, their chances of going to prison, all of these things, you know, they just have worse life outcomes.
It's...
It's very, you know, you made a comment about how, like, what do they think?
Like, we're that dumb?
And I think the reality is that they really do think that we are that dumb to buy into whatever it is, whatever the line is that they're selling us.
Yeah.
with which, again, we can talk about it with COVID, but we can talk about it with a lot of these other issues, whether it's the trans ideology, the issue of war and peace, and others where they will try to sell us a line that is so absurd and so ridiculous and makes no sense, and others where they will try to sell us a line that is so absurd and so ridiculous and makes no sense, that is not at all rooted in truth, in objective
And I think that's where, you know, even with the vaccine, for example, like...
Fauci, I think one of his last interviews before he retired and left, he was like, you know, go get your vaccine, go get your vaccine in order to protect your loved ones and your community.
Like, no, man.
Like, we all know.
Maybe in the very beginning, what they said, like, hey, no, not very many people knew about this vaccine because it was brand new and what it could do, what it didn't do, what it was tested for, what it wasn't tested for.
But we all know that the vaccine doesn't prevent you from getting it and doesn't prevent you from spreading it.
Period.
And so the fact that even now, where we are today, still, as you mentioned, in New York and in other places, I know some are now lifting.
I know in the military they've lifted the vaccine mandate, but others are still requiring it.
And it's just like, well, hold on a second.
They've lost all credibility because it's very clear that they're unwilling to admit that they were wrong about certain things and unwilling to actually just say, hey, okay, here's what we're doing.
Here's why.
This is what we know.
This is what we don't know.
And I think that's all people really want from those in positions of power is just, hey, just tell us the truth.
And if you made a mistake, own it and allow us to then make our own decisions for ourselves.
I couldn't agree with any of that more.
I think at this point, as it pertains to COVID and many of these other issues, you know, and I could, you know, go on forever about how many they are, the harms are so egregious at this point.
We did know from the beginning.
I mean, take the vaccine, for instance.
Like, how anyone could stand by it as delivering as promised?
I mean, it's on video everywhere.
You can't get it.
You won't transmit it.
But that was literally, from day one, never researched.
If you bothered to read...
The report from Pfizer in the footnotes.
So what that says is if they never tested for that or they never researched that, that they were lying flat out from the beginning.
And so it's sort of a sunk cost fallacy at this point because to admit a mistake, it was so egregious.
And there's like one lie on top of the other on top of the other.
Either a lie or just ineptitude.
I don't know which.
They're both terrible.
They are.
They're both awful.
And it's just one thing on top of the next, and I think it's just too egregious at this point to admit it.
I don't know.
I mean, if you...
Anyway, I cannot accept a lie.
I started pushing back on all this stuff with COVID, and there were other things I was quiet about because I felt like I'm in enough trouble over here.
Pick your battles.
Yeah, pick your battles, and it's why I stayed very focused on children and didn't veer so heavily into lockdowns or vaccination.
I did speak some on mandates, vaccine mandates.
Which I think are incredibly discriminatory for obvious reasons that I won't get into.
But I realized I was holding back on other things.
And at this point, I'm in a position, as I'm sure you find yourself, that you're just like, well, now I might as well just say it all because I don't have a job.
I have no prospects.
I'll get one at some point.
But if you accept a lie, I don't know, it's so disorienting to me to think that we could accept lies and live in them.
If you don't It means you don't believe in the pursuit of progress, or you don't even believe that pursuing truth gives us progress.
Right.
Which is the irony.
And so that's, I can't abide.
And honestly, if we accept lies and government issued talking points as facts and Pfizer issued press releases as facts that are accepted by the government as stories and the press are written, I mean, it's just the loop is like never ending, right?
Then really, are we any better than any authoritarian regime?
How is that different than China?
Yeah.
It is.
That's such an important point here because in order for us to actually have a functioning democracy, people need to have faith in their leaders that what they are telling us is true.
Period.
And if we have no faith in our leaders and they dictate to us, here's the information you are allowed to see, We're going to take away everything we don't want you to see.
Here's the line we want you to believe.
We're going to silence those who challenge that line.
Then you're exactly right.
We have no functioning democracy.
And really, what then is the difference between us and any other authoritarian country or country that's led by a dictator?
I want to go back to another thing in your book that jumped out at me about Levi's motto or mantra, you said, was profits through principles.
One of the things that Levi's is really known for is that individualism that you're talking about.
That we are individuals and you're able to express yourself as an individual But also you're marketing a lot of people basically like go buy all the same things but express yourself as individuals.
And it just stuck with me given why you got asked to leave the company and why you ultimately decided to quit.
Because your brand of individualism they found to be unacceptable.
Be individual in the way that we tell you.
You're allowed to be an individual.
Which is sort of the definition of the fashion industry.
And I write quite a bit about that.
That's sort of what you're selling.
What kids will tell you when you're doing research in fashion is, I want to stand out and be unique just like my friends.
That's the one they all say in Greece.
So, you know, they want to...
You know, that's what they want.
Anyway, but Levi's has always stood for rugged individualism and really the best of what America has stood for.
You know, Levi Strauss himself is this Bavarian dry goods merchant.
He came to America to forge a better future for himself and his family.
He equipped...
You know, gold miners to wear strong pants so they could keep their gold in their pants.
It really has represented that sort of thread or that strand of rugged individualism in America.
And I think that's why my story sort of resonated, because that's the lore about the company.
And as the CMO, as the Chief Marketing Officer, those are the stories I told.
They were about being an individual that lived your life in Levi's and did great things.
And I think Levi's stands out as a fashion company, and I always took great pains to do this.
We don't tell you how to wear our product.
You wear it your way.
It sounds like Burger King, but you know what I mean?
You rock your 501s however you want to.
Sure.
Everyone from minivan moms to cowboys to punk rockers and b-boys, they all wear Levi's, right?
They all wear Levi's 501s.
And that's what I loved about it.
But at the end of the day, it really...
It happened slowly and then all at once.
It became...
We had this campaign, Use Your Voice.
It was my campaign.
And it dawned on me quite late into 2020 that that applied to everyone but me.
You could use your voice if you used it to support the government-issued talking points, and that was it.
I mean, I was also told I couldn't post anything about the recall election in California.
California.
Wow.
Which is clear violation of protected political speech.
And I wasn't even saying I support it.
I was just posting articles about it.
Yeah.
But yeah, it didn't apply to me.
And I realized, call me dumb, maybe I'm naive, but I realized this.
I just, I didn't think it was the case.
You know, I'd always had views that were sort of a little quirky, you know, and outside of the business mainstream, because I sort of held views that were a little further left.
I often didn't support the mainstream candidate.
I often supported a candidate that was further left.
I didn't vote for Gavin Newsom as the mayor.
I voted for whoever the green candidate was.
So I was always a little quirky, but this suddenly I went...
I mean, they keep calling me, and I notice you get called more conservatives now, too.
I don't think I've changed.
I just think the party's gone mad.
I agree.
Yeah.
I agree.
But yeah, I realized about six months in that all of these mantras of profits through principles and use your voice and all of that was a lie.
It was a marketing strategy.
They think they mean it.
Right.
They tell themselves that.
They tell themselves, but if you push up against it, you'll find very quickly.
And if you challenge any of the orthodoxy and the charade that allows them to take this social justice stance and be perceived as a good social justice warrior, you must be banished because you threaten to expose the lie.
So it's a weird balance because on the one hand, they sort of believe it about themselves and they like believing it.
They also, they know it's a big lie.
Yeah.
Both can be true.
Exactly.
Deep down, because they wouldn't banish you with such fervor if it were true, because they could defend it.
There's a clip, I'm going to see if we can find it, that you talk about in the book, a Saturday Night Live clip from 2017, was it?
So good.
About woke Levi's?
Yeah, Levi's woke.
Levi's woke.
Let's see if we can just pull it up real quick because...
Like that blows my mind.
And that was September, if I'm not mistaken, that was September 2017. And I don't watch Saturday Night Live, but it was on and I was weirdly awake at that point.
People start texting me thinking I'm in big trouble.
Like, I'm the chief marketing officer and they're mocking us, you know?
And I'm like, I think it's hilarious that We're not going to be like that.
That's silly.
Of course, they're totally like that now without the humor.
And we had this idea.
I talked to my head of design who called me and we thought it was hilarious.
And we were like, let's make the pants and let's send them to the cast.
And we just wanted it to be fun.
Like we thought we're in on the joke.
We don't have to be the butt of the joke.
We can be in on the joke.
We agree this wokeness is silly and ridiculous and we're not going to be part of it.
But now, close to six years later, I don't think they would make that.
No.
No.
I mean, SNL isn't funny anymore, in my opinion, because they're so concerned about all the things that everyone else is concerned about.
But what changed?
That is my question.
That's my question, and that's why I was so surprised...
Well, yeah, I mean, it's kind of just a general question.
I get asked this question, too, is like, what was the turning point?
What was the thing that changed?
And I know a lot changed when Trump got elected, because a lot of people got really, and are still just completely deranged because Trump got elected, and they unfortunately haven't figured out, like, wait, maybe we should stop for a second and actually listen to people and think about Why people voted the way they did and instead just said anybody who voted for him, Hillary said what was the deplorables or they're racist or they're Nazis or this or that.
So again, not interested in listening or the truth, but you look at, I mean, I was shocked that they even did that in 2017. It's not that long ago.
It's really not.
But we've seen like with SNL, we've seen with a lot of stand-up comedians, Dave Chappelle not included, who just, they just not, you know, any of these late night hosts, they're not funny.
They're not funny at all because it seems like they're all concerned about, you know, we can't offend these guys.
We can't say anything that might piss off, you know, the democratic powers that be or the woke audience or the woke people on Twitter or whatever it is.
And that's what I'm curious, like, yes, we have a bigger question about culture in this country, but you were, you know, you were in Levi's in a company where this was making fun of wokeism, and you took it for the fun that it was,
but from 2017 until 2022, when you left, What did you see as kind of the triggers of you as a C-suite leader in that company being able to respond in the way that you did, like with another joke, but then now getting to a place where just a few years later, you had to leave your job because you were not allowed.
You dared to challenge them on something that was unacceptable.
Yeah, I think you're right.
Trump drove people insane.
I think that so many business leaders like this, for whatever reason, I think the majority, at least of coastal business leaders, meaning CEOs at this point, are Democrats, right?
And it's like the Democrats are the party of the elites now, not the working class.
It's the college-educated elites.
But they have conservative streaks in them.
These are hardcore capitalists that like to make a lot of money.
They were terrified when they thought somebody like Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren, like them, don't like them, doesn't matter, could possibly...
From a business perspective, they were very concerned.
They did not like that.
Bad for business, bad for business.
So these are not far-left people.
But I think Trump, that was a divide, and you were either on the good team or the bad team, and that kind of put a wedge.
I think the summer of 2020 and the murder of George Floyd, which just the country and the world It exploded.
And I think part of that, because we'd seen horrific murders like that in the past, why it happened with this one, I do think it partly was because we'd all been locked up for three or four months and it was sort of a powder keg, the country.
I mean, it was horrific too and it was there on video, but there had been other ones.
And, you know, maybe it just, it was time, but that, and the response to it from businesses in particular.
I mean, the business world was frantic to prove they're anti-racist, denouncing my privileged status.
And they all made proclamations on Instagram, including us, about what they were going to do to diversity.
Like, they just, because if you didn't, you were on Team Trump.
You are on the bad team.
And then COVID, which was sort of during that same time, put a further divide.
But I think you're right.
Trump was a real sort of dividing line.
But look, I didn't like the guy and I didn't lose my mind.
I just don't understand how you could divorce yourself in reality because you hated or really disliked an elected public leader.
But I think all those things added up.
And suddenly, like I said, the trend is it is not good to be rich.
It is not good to be privileged.
And so all these people have to act like they're not or that's not why they're doing it.
They're doing it because they really care about helping people, which is lunatic.
And their kids, you know, they've got teenage kids and college kids.
who are not proud of the fact that they make a ton of money, but they might be proud of the fact that they're a social justice warrior.
And then you've got the employees coming in, this young, woke cohort of employees who've grown up, you know, they've grown up with safe spaces and they're very sensitive and They are afraid of these young employees and they want to impress them.
And they're terrified of that.
I mean, they really are.
And to your point, Tulsi, it's not the majority.
It's a very vocal and very punitive minority.
But these senior C-suiters, they don't understand social media.
They don't understand...
Any of it.
And these kids do.
And they know, with a finger tap, they can take a picture in a meeting of some leader who said the word guys, like, hey guys, you know what we're going to do?
And they can get her fired.
They know they have that power.
But they don't have it if the CEOs refuse.
Exactly.
That's the thing.
And I think you bring up Netflix and Chappelle, or you brought up Chappelle in The Closer.
That's, I think, the one you're referring to where he talks about trans.
And one, it's funny.
Two, it's also heartbreaking.
And it is very empathetic.
I mean, he's talking about his friend the whole time.
And I think the CEO of Netflix, Ted Sarandos, set an example here.
And he said, because there were supposed to be thousands and thousands of employees protesting, right?
That's what the New York Times is reporting, and it was like 40. So first of all, it wasn't everyone.
They wanted them to pull the closer from Netflix, but it was one of the most watched shows of 2021. So from a business perspective, he wasn't going to do it.
Right.
And I think from their mission perspective, which is we show a lot of content for a lot of people, which is what he told the employees, and if you don't like it, then maybe you shouldn't work here.
And guess what?
You know what happened.
Nothing.
It was fine.
And, you know, Daniel Eck from Spotify did the same thing with Rogan.
But they're the only two I can think of.
Yeah.
I mean, the only other example that comes to mind, as you mentioned, CEOs being afraid of their employees, kind of their woke employees, was Jack from Twitter, kind of openly talking about it in some ways, but it was kind of that open knowledge of how the employees are the ones who are making policy decisions through pressure and And that Jack himself, as the founder and CEO, was frustrated and felt helpless to a certain degree.
I think they just don't have the words.
They don't know how to do it.
I think the majority of CEOs want to get back to business.
They want to unwoke their companies and they want to focus on running the business with sound fundamentals.
Some of them are frauds and they don't want to because they like the laudatory praise they get, right?
But I think most of them went into business because they like running a business.
They want to deliver product excellence and make money for the company and the shareholders themselves.
But they don't know how.
And I think Bob Chapek at Disney is a really good example of this.
He could have stood up in front of the employees who were pressuring him to weigh in against Ron DeSantis and the so-called Don't Say Gay Bill, which is not really what the bill is.
It's not what it is.
And he said no at first, and then he bowed to the pressure of the employees.
Here's what I would have done.
Not that anybody's asking me to be the CEO of Disney, but I would have said, look, we're coming out of a really tough time.
We're coming out of COVID. Our parks business has suffered.
We've got to get it back on track.
We've got this great streaming business, but it's not making any money.
Let's focus on that.
I welcome diverse opinions in this company, but that's not our job.
Right.
It's not my job to go fight with the government.
They should hire you as CEO. And, you know, by the way, a really, really popular governor who won his governorship by more than 20 points, I think.
More in a historic fashion.
Yes, in a historic fashion.
And, you know, watching it unfold, and I started looking back, you know, with all the business challenges Disney has faced in the last two years for, you know, understandable reasons, the things they're making headlines about are the CEO going to war with Ron DeSantis.
Right.
And that is illustrative of the fact that it was taking time, energy, and money and employee attention away from getting the business back on track.
And I just don't understand why it would be hard to say that.
For a CEO. It's interesting, Tulsi, because it is revealing.
And they're just afraid.
And most of them, I think, are, this will make it so I never get another job again, but they're just cowards and they don't know how to do it.
And if you gave them the words, they would do that.
But they have hysterical heads of HR and heads of corporate communication chirping at them and saying, you can't, you have to do what the employees want.
They all think the employees have all the power.
And it's also why employees are refusing to go back to the office.
Yes, absolutely.
Which is also bad for business and bad for cities.
I mean, it's terrible for the city of San Francisco.
The city of San Francisco is dying and they have the lowest return to office occupancy rate of any city in America.
The downtown is done.
Right.
I'm smiling a little bit as you're talking about this because I have experienced and see the very same thing in so many of my former colleagues in Congress and people in Washington.
is those who, I mean, as I was running for president and I was running in the Democratic primary and speaking out very strongly about how far off track the Democratic Party has become and the need for it to get back to its roots as being the party that fights for the people, that fights to protect our open spaces, water, the environment, that fights to protect our open spaces, water, the environment, our party that stands for civil liberties, civil rights, and freedom of speech and individual thought and expression, all of these things that the Democratic Party used to be, you know, kind of the flag bearer for what to speak of, the party
kind of the flag bearer for I had, some of my colleagues, not a huge majority, but some of my colleagues came up to me on the House floor, Democratic colleagues during that time, whisper literally, like pulling me into a corner, whispering into my ear, oh my gosh, I love everything you're doing.
Keep it up.
Just don't tell anybody that I said this to you.
And those were the ones who had the courage to even come and speak to me.
And why that took courage was a member of staff of another Democratic congressman who I'd worked with before on a number of issues.
Their staff told my staff, like, we're like, oh, hey, let's go introduce this bill together.
We've been talking about this for a long time.
They said, oh no, we're not going to allow our boss to be associated with yours because she's toxic and we don't want him to be contaminated with her, I guess, her public toxicity.
And these are the staffers.
These are the staffers.
These are the staffers saying, I won't allow my boss to do this.
I won't allow my member of Congress to do this.
So they're not even trying to hide the fact that we have so many cowards in Congress, in the most powerful rooms and halls of this country, making decisions that affect business, that affect the economy, that affect our national security, war and peace, the environment, that affect education, every immigration, our borders, every aspect of our lives...
Are cowards and who make decisions in the very same way that you're talking about these CEOs based on fear and based on, well, who are the loudest voices?
Well, I don't want to piss this group off or that person off.
And what happens if I get associated with this person or whatever it may be?
It's making decisions that are selfishly fear-based Rather than exercising courage.
Whether I agree or disagree with the decision is not the point.
The point is being able to take a principled stand and a courageous stand based on what you believe serves the greater good.
What serves the country and the American people.
Not based on being afraid that you'll be associated with someone.
Take all that out of it.
Or you'll lose a donor or whatever it is.
Yeah, I think...
Most people, the vast majority of people, probably 60 to 70 percent, would rather take cover in the group than stand up and do the right thing and be right and try to lead everybody towards the truth.
Right.
Or even if they're wrong, if they think they're right, they still...
Most people, you know, would rather stand with the group and be part of the group and conform and have that sort of validation and moral righteousness that the group affords.
And I don't think that's changeable.
Like, I think that's human nature.
You know, I think that is just a fact.
I think that's what we saw in the Milgram experiment.
That's what we saw in the Stanford prison experiment.
Like, most people...
You know, are obedient to authority and conformists.
Even if they put hashtag resists all over their Twitter, they're still just conforming.
Those hashtags are powerful, though.
They're so powerful.
It's sort of the hashtag of the fashion business, right?
Like, I want to look like an individual, but like all my friends.
So I don't really think it's changeable, and I've come to accept that, and it's disappointing.
But here's the thing.
The 30% is divided into two parts on either side, right?
And they can move things.
As I was going through what I was going through at Levi's, I kept a previous story from my life close to my heart and at the top of my mind, which was in gymnastics.
I was the first person, really, to speak out about the abuse in the sport.
I wrote a book in 2008, and I pushed myself to be as honest as possible, you know, about unflattering things about myself, but also about the sport, even though I was afraid.
I did not realize the backlash it would provoke.
I did not, you know, this is pre-MeToo.
Yeah.
And I wrote about the national team coach, not Bella Caroli, but the Olympic coach in 1984 being a serial rapist, which he is.
It was known and covered up in the sport, but you weren't to speak of it.
And I sort of thought it would kind of be okay.
Like I thought it was an open secret.
I didn't realize it was a secret secret.
Anyway, I wrote about all this.
It was horrible.
I was dragged across the internet for 10 years as a terrible, awful grifter, liar, whatever.
And then the story of Larry Nassar broke.
And suddenly I was this hero.
And everybody forgot.
That they said I was lying and I was a terrible person and I was weak and an awful gymnast.
What does that have to do with it?
I don't know.
Well, let's just pause there because I think we've got a video of your national championship.
Just to disprove.
Speaking of the truth and fact-checking and everything else.
So all the people who had those criticisms, we're going to show them real quick.
She's coming up for a dismount, which is a round-off double fold.
Beautiful.
I did gymnastics as a little girl, so at a personal level.
Oh, wow.
Amazing.
My sister and I did gymnastics and then I realized I didn't really have the body for it.
I can't stand watching this.
Do you still look back and start critiquing yourself?
I'm just curious.
I sort of stopped that in the last 10 years.
I mean, I'm 53. It's about time, right?
That one is hard to watch.
My ankle was broken while I was competing in that.
Are you kidding?
No.
So that's hard to watch because of how much pain I was in.
And I didn't know it was broken.
It It looked really horribly grotesque and swollen and purple and I actually didn't learn how bad the break was until I was 40 and finally went to a doctor and had surgery and he was astonished.
He asked me what kind of car accident I had been in because I had shattered my ankle many years ago.
And of course, I had never known this.
My coach and my doctor just said, go back out there.
Here's some more cortisone.
Here's some more cortisone.
I'll wrap it up for you again.
So I wrote about all of this.
The eating disorders, the bullying, the abuse, the weight shaming, the being forced to train on serious injuries.
And I was hated for it.
But...
The more they called me a liar, the more I leaned into it.
I felt like I touched a nerve and I knew I needed to kind of push through it because I didn't want other children to have to go through what I had gone through.
Now, it took 10 years and it took the exposure of the most prolific pedophile possibly in American history, Larry Nassar, for folks to realize.
But my point is that 60% is movable.
You know, and you just have to, it's difficult and it requires people calling out the lie and saying the truth and being resilient and being unwilling to, you know, balk at just because they're called names and, you know, fired, whatever.
But people come, they come around and they will stand.
And, you know, look, I'm not even critical.
I just, this is human nature.
This is how people are and I understand it.
Yeah.
It's leadership.
Actually real, authentic, strong and courageous, principled leaders who are willing to be the first to take those arrows and take those blows to get us to a better place.
What I find sort of unfortunate and sad is you described to me, and I had the same experience in business, we assume that those leaders are your peers in government.
The ones who are in leadership positions, right?
Yes, we assume those people are not cowardly and that they are courageous and that they have some vision and foresight and are willing to make hard choices.
But I think...
It's the same split amongst leaders, too.
It's still that 60, 70 are going along and they're a little bit cowardly.
That's the part that's upsetting to me.
But I will say the part that's encouraging is the amazing people I have met in the last three years.
Everyday folks, like moms who are now on school boards because they took matters into their own hands and they've run for school board.
I get choked up thinking about it.
Regular people who were better at data than the Data scientists and the doctors who were claiming to know everything who have just been dogged in presenting correct information.
There's amazing people everywhere.
Exercising leadership.
Exercising that courageous leadership in the way that they can and the way that they know how.
Yeah, and that's what I tell people.
Do it whatever your way is.
You don't have to blow up your whole life.
It could just be, you know what, maybe you're one of those parents who's not allowed to go watch your kid play basketball.
Don't accept it.
Ask why.
Ask why at this stage when we know, when you can go to Madison Square Garden and watch a game, why you can't.
Don't accept it because it really is the consent of the governed.
And so we cannot consent.
Exactly.
Go to the game.
To an unjust law.
Go to the game.
Make a stink outside the door.
There's still some schools who don't have in-person parent-teacher conferences.
I mean, that's crazy.
Don't accept it when they tell you it's too dangerous.
Say, I want to meet my child's teacher.
I am coming in.
There's a million ways.
I mean, obviously I'm focused on children, but like in your area, in your life, you don't even have to run for school board.
That's really hard.
Yeah.
Do what you can do in your life to push back on lies and unjustness.
That right there, I think, is the most important message and what I think is the takeaway from your book and the message that you've been delivering is exactly that.
Don't just stand by and allow this to occur, that every single one of us has a powerful voice and the ability to make a powerful impact.
To me, some people are like, oh, but Tulsi, you do so much more than I do.
It's like, no.
You and I may be trying to make an impact in different paths, in different spheres and in different ways, but this is not like a competition of any sort whatsoever.
It's every one of us going within our own hearts and being introspective to find what is that best way where I can be of service, where I can make a positive impact.
And there is no not enough.
There is no wrong answer.
There is no, well, it's just too small or it's not as much as this other person is doing.
It's about what every one of us chooses to do because it is a choice.
We all have the opportunity.
It's whether or not we make the choice to take advantage of that opportunity.
And when we do, and I know how fearful and scary it can be, but when we do, and I promise, because I've been through this and you're experiencing this, you will feel a sense of fulfillment even as you're getting attacked and even as people are coming after you because you know that you are making that positive impact and you are helping to move us towards that solution.
Yeah, I think that is true.
It's a bumpy path, certainly.
And my life, I tell people, is pretty unrecognizable from three years ago.
You know, I don't live in the city that I've lived in for over 30 years.
I don't work in the place I've worked in for over 20. I had a...
Career trajectory.
It's now unclear if anyone would ever hire me to do anything again.
I've lost a lot of friends, some family members.
Not to COVID. I didn't mean that.
I mean through the stances that I've taken.
And so that's very difficult.
But I have my kids and my husband and I have my integrity and I'll figure all the rest of it out.
Because I just...
I don't know.
There were one or two people over the course of the few years who I had considered friends who said, why are you doing this?
It's not worth it.
Why?
I don't understand how you could say, one, children aren't worth it, and truth isn't worth it.
I mean, wow.
Then...
I don't really have anything in common with you.
And one of the things I tell people is the thing you do could just be, hey, let's listen to her.
Exactly.
I might not agree with her either, but let's have this conversation.
Right.
That's a big thing.
Because one person says that, and then guess what?
Another one says, yeah, I want to hear what she has to say.
Okay.
Can you imagine if your CEO, the CEO of Levi's, had said that?
One little line like that.
Let's just have the conversation.
The whole time.
Or let's not have this conversation at work.
Jen's talking about this stuff outside of work.
She gets to use her voice.
You get to use yours.
Let's get back to work.
Right.
Instead, in every town hall, there were a thousand questions about how racist I was.
What a waste of time.
It's just so silly.
Anyway, now I'm going in circles.
But that is what I hope.
And I could not agree with you more.
Everyone has to do it.
Their issue, their cause, their life, their skills, it all adds up to a different kind of path.
But I just want to encourage people just a little bit.
Take that one step.
Screw up your courage just a little bit and say the thing.
Yeah.
Well, I know that you are.
I found your book to be inspiring.
I'm looking forward to the documentary that you're producing and filming.
You've mentioned a few times that, oh, you know, I don't know if anyone will hire me again.
I doubt that very much.
You've displayed the kind of courageous leadership that our country needs so much more of, not only in government, but also in In the private sector, in education, in healthcare, we're seeing how necessary strong, courageous leaders are in every sector of our society.
So thank you for being that.
Thank you, Tulsi.
You are an inspiration.
I like to watch your video when I'm feeling low.
It inspires me, the one where you said you're an independent now.
Yeah, no, I mean, there's a few brave people.
There's a piece Abigail Schreier wrote maybe two years ago.
How does it feel to be so hated?
I think it was a talk she gave to Princeton students, and it gives me just the jolt I need when I need it.
I haven't read or seen that one, so I'm going to look that one up.
She's fantastic.
She's amazing.
Yeah, it starts with what does it feel like to be so hated?
It's a good one.
Yeah, I can relate.
Thank you for all you do.
It's so good to talk to you, and I can't wait to meet you one of these days somewhere along the path.
I would love to.
I would love that.
Thank you, Tulsi.
Thanks so much.
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