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Nov. 29, 2022 - Tulsi Gabbard Show
01:05:05
Tulsi & Riley Gaines talk Lia Thomas, Women’s Sports and Modern Feminism | The Tulsi Gabbard Show
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Leah Thomas was obviously standing next to you around the podium when this happened.
Did Leah say anything?
Not a word.
We're standing basically right beside each other and I'm looking at this official and really I'm probably mouthing off more than I'm letting on here because I'm looking at this official and I'm like, you know how wrong this is.
You see this as a man.
What are you talking about?
Do you not see the problem here?
When you say the word feminism today, you might get different reactions depending on who you're talking to.
Feminism has a very different connotation now in this modern day than it did 50 years ago when Title IX was first enacted.
Title IX came about because there were self-proclaimed feminists who fought hard and championed a level playing field between men and women and boys and girls.
They recognized, hey, there is a need for fairness between biological males and females, especially in the realm of sports.
Today I'm going to be sharing with you a really great conversation that I had with one of our country's top elite female athletes, an incredible swimmer, and we talked about this very question.
I think you're going to be interested to hear what she has to say about modern-day feminism.
When we look to the past, Feminists of previous generations, they were primarily focused on securing rights, whether it was the right to vote, the right to work and be paid fairly, or the right to have access to the same opportunities in sports and education.
Fast forward to today.
Today's self-proclaimed feminists will not define what a woman is and are unfortunately actively seeking to erase the progress that Title IX has made over the last 50 years by essentially trying to erase women as an entire category of people.
Now, there's a lot of different ways this is happening, but one of those ways is by changing language, which is a really big deal.
Doing things like instead of using the term mother, we're told we have to use the term birthing person.
And instead of referring to someone as a woman, refer to them as a menstruating person.
Now, if you walk onto a lot of college campuses these days, you can see just how toxic this modern brand of feminism has become.
There's no interest in tolerance or respect or people having different views or opinions and perspectives, no welcome To an open marketplace of ideas, anybody who has a different view or expresses dissent or challenge or questions this narrative that they're pushing is shouted down, is attempted to be silenced, and essentially is forced into self-censorship or compliance through intimidation and bullying.
It's important for all of us That we not stand by and allow this to happen.
That we take action.
That we lift our voices to resist this insanity and take a stand for objective truth.
And take a stand for the protection of women and girls.
Not only today, but for generations to come.
Where are you right now, Riley?
I am in Nashville, Tennessee.
Okay, that's where you still live there.
Yes, ma'am.
I do.
I wish I was in Hawaii.
That sounds...
Your husband hasn't whisked you away to the UK. Not yet.
Not yet.
I love it too much over here, but maybe if things continue how they're going, we'll just pack up and leave.
Yeah, it's good to have a backup option.
Yeah, right.
Exactly.
I was there, gosh, towards the end of October for the big rally to end child mutilation that Matt Walsh and those guys put on.
I was only there for less than 24 hours.
But the thing that I found out when I got there, I was like, oh, wow, this is cool.
I've never been to Nashville.
I know Nashville is like country music, right?
Yeah.
And they're like, well, this is the bachelorette capital of the nation.
For sure.
It's like, what?
Literally four people told me that.
It's insane.
You can't go downtown.
It's not what I would have thought of.
No, it's crazy.
You can't go downtown without seeing tons of girls in their cowboy hats and their bachelorette stuff.
It's gotten crazy.
Yeah, like the cloth they wear around the chest.
What do you call that?
A sash.
Yeah, sash.
Thank you.
Clearly I'm very not well versed in these things.
I know what you meant because I've seen it way too many times.
Exactly.
Exactly.
It was funny.
I lost track.
Every time I walked through the lobby of the hotel, I was like, oh, there's another.
There's another.
Hold on.
Yeah.
There's another.
No, I know.
It's good to see you again.
I saw you like a week and a half before that in Washington, D.C. Yes.
I didn't know until probably the day before that you were going to be introducing me at that event and presenting me with the honor of that award from the Independent Women's Forum.
And it was just the best.
I could not have been more grateful, of course, to see you and get to hang out with you just for a little bit at that dinner.
But you've literally been on the forefront of this.
When everything was playing out with Leah Thomas and swimming at Penn and then these national championships, for me and a lot of my friends were just like, my gosh, why aren't we hearing from these female swimmers who are really being hurt and impacted by this whole situation?
It was pretty much silence for a while.
Until you came along.
And I just wonder if you can talk about what happened.
What was the thing?
Because I'm sure you were watching it play out a little bit.
What was the thing that made you make that decision?
Which is a brave decision to say like, no, I can't be silent on this.
So I was kind of waiting for someone to speak up for us.
I thought surely a coach or someone within the NCAA or someone with some kind of political power or just authority to make a change would stick up for us.
But it hit me.
If we as women aren't willing to stick up for ourselves, how can we expect someone else to?
And I had heard just from different girls at different universities across the NCAA, including Leah Thomas' teammates, Just how silenced they were, which is not something I was facing at my university.
It was more so people were just scared to be called transphobic and bigots and all the things.
But these other girls, especially within the Ivy League, oh my gosh, the amount of just emotional blackmail that their schools used against them.
They were told their school has made their stance for them.
If they so choose to come out and make a public stance that goes against what their school has said and any harm comes towards the transgender athlete's way, whether that be self-inflicted or from someone else, then they are solely responsible.
I actually have a screenshot.
I think you heard this, but a screenshot of an email that the Ivy League sent to their swimmers that said, If you feel uncomfortable as a female seeing male genitalia in your locker room, here are some counseling resources that you should seek.
And they were referred to the LGBTQ Education Center to educate themselves on what these oppressed people have to deal with.
If you could send that to us, I'd love to see it and just share it on the screen here.
For sure.
Yeah.
These girls are told that they will never get into grad school.
They will never get a job.
They'll lose all these job opportunities.
They'll lose their scholarship.
So these girls are terrified into speaking out.
Of course.
Because you're seeing your future on the line, right?
Right.
You don't want to jeopardize everything you've worked for, both athletically and in your academics with your career.
Right.
So they're just more so willing to kind of brush it under the rug and look the other way.
And you heard about all this before you decided to speak out.
Yes.
I initially decided to speak out because of really the trophy incident that happened between Thomas and I. We tied, went the exact same time, down to the hundredth of a second, and we go back behind the awards podium.
What are the odds of that?
It's crazy.
That's why I think everything...
To the hundredth of a second.
That's why I think everything I've kind of been experiencing is like a total God thing.
Just the way the situation presented itself.
Me being at the University of Kentucky that has backed me wholeheartedly.
It's just all worked out in such a way that it couldn't be anything other than a God thing.
Right.
But we tie.
We go behind the awards podium and the NCAA official looks at me and says, Hey, great job.
Y'all tied.
We don't really account for ties in terms of trophies.
So we're going to give the trophy to Leah, and yours will come in the mail.
And so I look at him and I'm like, okay, I understand that we don't account for ties, but can I ask you, why are you giving the trophy to Leah, who's a biological man, at a woman's event, and not to mention this person won a national title the night before?
And he looks at me and says, oh, well, we're just doing this in chronological order.
And I was like, okay, well, what are we being chronological about?
Because maybe I'm missing something.
Well, because, I mean, if I remember the alphabet correctly, Gaines comes before Thomas in the alphabet, right?
Exactly.
Exactly.
And so I was waiting for some kind of justification, knowing that they didn't have it.
I had realized that they were totally trying to save face.
And he looks at me and says, Well, for photo purposes, Leah has to hold the trophy.
You can pose with this one, but you'll have to give it back and yours will eventually come in the mail.
That's really when I was pushed to speak out because it hit me that not only were we being forced to compete against men and change in a locker room with men who had male parts, we were being sidelined to men and totally put on the back burner to men at an all-women's meet.
That's when I had kind of reached my tipping point and I was done waiting for someone else to stick up for me and the other athletes at that meet.
I'm curious.
Leah Thomas was obviously standing next to you around the podium when this happened.
Did Leah say anything?
Not a word.
We're standing basically right beside each other and I'm looking at this official and really I'm probably mouthing off more than I'm letting on here because I'm looking at this official and I'm like, you know how wrong this is.
You see this as a man.
What are you talking about?
Do you not see the problem here?
Leah doesn't say a word, doesn't offer the trophy, nothing.
And I want to reiterate, the tangible trophy itself, not having it, was not an issue to me.
I'm a 12-time All-American, so I have lots of those at home.
It's not the trophy that I was just dying to hold in my hand and take home with me.
But it was the principle behind what was happening and really what the NCAA had allowed to happen.
They clearly weren't prepared for a situation like this, but how they handled it under that pressure was just mind-blowing.
They buckled.
For sure.
They buckled.
So, you know, given the stories you had heard, the emotional blackmail, really, I mean, threats, direct threats being made to your peers' future and their opportunities, everything they work for.
Like you said, this is about something bigger than just a race or a trophy.
You chose to stand up and speak out.
And I've talked to other female athletes who saw you do that and your speaking out gave them courage to also raise their voices and speak out.
What has the reaction been to you taking that step?
I remember seeing you on the news when that first happened, and I wondered then, and I'm curious now, as this period of time has passed, what of the positive and negative kinds of reactions and feedback are that you've received?
I have gotten so much positive feedback, like an overwhelming amount, tenfold positive to negative, which shows me what the majority here is and how people really understand that this is something that's obvious, to put it quite frankly.
And so, I mean, parents, other athletes, Just people across the globe, this isn't even something that's just locally or even just the United States.
This is something that's occurring all over, which is now that I'm in this position where I'm kind of understanding these things, I'm realizing this is totally underreported and it's happening everywhere.
But I've just gotten so much positive feedback, which I think the media doesn't want you to think.
They don't want you to think that You're shedding light in a positive way or that you will receive job opportunities.
Oh my gosh, it's been fantastic.
I think they totally want you to think the other way.
But of course, I've received some flack.
You're called hateful.
You're called transphobic, a bigot, all the things.
But am I transphobic for saying that women deserve respect and that there are two sexes and that you can't change your sex?
Exactly.
I feel like I honestly, in all of my speaking out and media engagements and things like that, I've done nothing other than state facts, logistics, statistics, nothing opinionated.
And so it shows me these people are denying science and reason and logic and all the things, common sense.
Yeah.
You recently had a situation on Twitter, right?
I want to talk about that, but I want to just pull up here some of the tweets, the screenshots of the direct threats that you've gotten.
Because even as you've seen this enormously positive response, that's not all that you've gotten.
And so just give me one second here.
Yeah, one sec.
Let's see here.
You and I are part of this amazing group chat on our Twitter DM. It's called Hashtag Our Bodies, Our Sports, Hashtag Re-Sisters.
Re-Sisters.
All right, here we go.
Let's see here.
Nice play on words there.
All right.
Let's see.
I think it's important.
I know you could probably talk about it, but I think it's important that people actually see Right.
What you're getting.
For sure.
Talk us through a little bit because I actually don't know the background of this.
I saw somebody shared a tweet with the screenshots that you put out on Twitter giving examples of the kinds of threats that you got and saying that you had been suspended from Twitter.
What went down?
What happened?
So I go onto my Twitter one day and I get a notification that was like, your account is locked.
We have come to the realization that you created your account before you were 13 years old.
Therefore, you are suspended until we can dive deeper into this.
And so me, being 22 years old, I'm so confused.
I'm like, what in the world?
I don't know when I made my Twitter account.
Right, exactly.
But I guess in the settings, in the bio section of my Twitter, it said my birthday was in 1998 and I was born in 2000. And so I guess someone saw that and reported my account.
I'm still unclear exactly on what has happened there, but I haven't received any word back on my account.
So you're still suspended on Twitter?
I'm still suspended.
But Twitter had become a place where, I hate to say I relied on it for information because I know Twitter probably isn't the most reliable.
But it is where I would see breaking stories about a lot of these situations, similar stories to mine, because the media doesn't cover it a lot of times.
But there are certain accounts and things I follow on Twitter that provided me with information that I could then go and research myself to understand these stories and really shed light on those using my platform to do that.
So it sounds like somebody was trying to silence you and found this thing to exploit in order to do that.
Did that have anything to do with an exchange you had with Caitlyn Jenner on Twitter where you shared some screenshots?
Yeah.
I'm not sure.
Caitlin, I know, then was defending me, tagging Elon Musk, trying to get my Twitter account back.
And so I'm sure people have seen us kind of paired together and think that we're transphobic and we're spreading all this hate and all of these things, which is so not true.
Yeah.
You can read the tweets and see there's no blatant hate that's being spread.
It's facts.
It's what's happening in the world.
And it's important for people to hear and see and know, become aware of.
That right there, Riley, is exactly the problem and why people are so afraid to speak out on this is you are talking about something that is biological fact.
It is fact.
You're not expressing hate.
You're not saying, well, we should go after this group of people.
We should discriminate.
You've never, to my knowledge, and I've heard a lot of what you've said, you have never once...
Gone anywhere close to any kind of negative rhetoric towards any group of people.
You have talked about your experience, and you've talked about the need for this biological fact and truth to be recognized, Title IX to be upheld, and for leaders in this country, whether they be in government or the NCAA or different colleges, to take a stand and protect the fairness and safety of women in sports.
Period.
Exactly.
I want to pull up on screen here now.
You talk about how you are accused of hate because you're stating the fact, which makes a lot of people afraid to speak out, and yet this is the kind of negative response that you get.
Exactly.
And this comes from a party that says, or a group of people, a community that say they're inclusive, and they are spreading love, and they would never want to spread hate, and all of these things.
But when you see things like this that my DMs are just filled with, It proves the total opposite.
When you don't follow their narrative and when you don't push the same agenda that they're pushing, then you are all of these things and they wish death on you and all of these terrible things that no matter what, on anyone I would wish those things.
And so I think it shows true colors and I think it really showcases kind of what we're up against.
Exactly.
Yeah, there's some tough language there, Riley, but I don't know if you want to just read because we've got people who are only listening and not able to see what these are.
If you want to give people a sampling of the kinds of DMs and threats that you're getting.
It's a little fuzzy on my end, so I can't see it that well.
Okay, well, I'll read it then.
I'm not going to read every word of these because the language is so terrible that it's not appropriate for people of all ages, but I will read some of this just to let those who are listening and not able to see this on screen,
what you're dealing with and what others are dealing with who are speaking out on this, It's hard to know where to start.
It is.
I know.
It's like, this is coming from Jules.
Transphobic bitch.
Just admit you fucking suck at swimming and need something else to blame it on besides the fact that you're just bad.
Clearly, this is me talking.
Clearly, Jules is not aware that you're a 12-time All-American Top 5 Collegiate Swimmer in the country.
Jules continues and says, Has no advantage because the hormones she's taking actually decreases her levels all around and put her at an overall disadvantage compared to imbeciles like you who aren't taking hormones and still can't beat her.
You also look like more of a man than she ever did.
And your wedding dress was ugly as fuck.
And no, you did not live every girl's dream by marrying a British country boy.
One, that's cringe.
And two, it's embarrassing that you just graduated college and got married.
The thing is, when this person comes at me and says something like this, saying that Leah is at a disadvantage compared to the females, like what in the world?
It goes right over my head.
Tell people why in your experience, in this situation, that's a false statement.
Well, if we're just looking at the facts, because that's what I've liked to do throughout this whole process.
On paper, last year, well, I guess when Leah was on the men's team, Leah was ranked in the 500s as a male, which is nowhere near even qualifying for the national championships.
The NCAA level meet only accepts about the top 30. But that next year, as a female, Leah is the fastest female in the country by seconds, which in swimming, seconds is a lot.
This is something measured down to the hundredth of a second.
And so if you're just looking at this on paper, Are you kidding?
Is this person joking?
Leah is not disadvantaged.
Even with the testosterone suppression that Leah had been taking for not even a full year, the levels that were set in place for testosterone were not computable with what women really have.
And even if Leah had computable levels of testosterone, There are things like your lung size, your heart size, and I know it sounds silly, your throat size.
Men have a 40% larger throat than females, and so in swimming, these are all things that play a huge part in being successful.
The pieces of swimming like endurance, aerobic capacity, your power, your speed, your strength, all of these different things men are inherently better at women at, regardless of testosterone levels even at this point.
And so this person looking at me and telling me that Leah is the one who is disadvantaged, it just invalidates everything she says.
And that's the thing that I've always wondered is how people can so blatantly deny the biological differences.
When you look across so many of these sports, you have a male division and a female division, and they don't go and measure who gets to compete in the male division based on their testosterone levels.
Men alone have a variety of levels of testosterone.
Some friends of mine were curious.
They just went and got tested and they were shocked.
One of them who they thought that the levels would be low actually had really high levels and vice versa.
So, you know, to now say that this is the sole difference that makes it so a biological male can compete against biological females is just, it's outrageous.
And fundamentally, I think this, and I talked about this a lot, Yes, this is a huge problem for women and girls in sports, but the underlying problem that I see from a societal level, from a policy level, is they are denying truth.
They're denying that there is such a thing as objective biological truth, and they are denying therefore then that there is such a thing as a woman.
Exactly.
And there are so many downstream negative effects of that that really absolutely undermine all of the progress that's been made towards the things that these very same people claim to champion with equal rights for women and a level playing field and equal opportunity not only in sports but in the workplace and in life and in society.
The hypocrisy is just so in your face.
And yet, so many people, the majority of people lack the courage that you do to actually say what is obvious and what is true.
No doubt.
It blows my mind that people call it brave to say something so...
It seems like this is something that you are just born knowing.
So when people call me brave and courageous and all these things, I understand where they're coming from, but I don't think it's brave.
I think it's cowardice not to, but I don't think it's necessarily courageous to say those things.
I get it.
I do get it.
It is courageous because there aren't that many people doing it, but it's sad that it is.
I want to go back and read a couple more of these messages because these are the kinds of things that make people afraid.
Somebody named Kirsten DM'd you.
You both follow Caitlyn Jenner, which I thought was interesting.
Yeah.
You Republican piece of shit.
Kill yourself.
You're threatened by trans women because you're insecure.
I would be too with that face.
Maybe consider plastic surgery.
LMAO. Stop campaigning in a state you don't even live in, you dumb fuck.
Also, you're ugly as fuck.
I would kill myself if I looked like you.
Like actually dye your hair or something, you fucking white girl.
Like you're playing copy and paste or something.
You don't even have to say anything on that because it speaks for itself.
It's just...
And what I've realized is what I'm getting is personal attacks.
No one can dispute what I'm saying because, like I mentioned earlier, it's not an opinion.
I'm not saying something that's not true, that's not proven.
And so people are saying, either I get a lot, either you're ugly, which I think is so silly, or It is.
Or you're bad at swimming.
Maybe you should have just tried harder.
I'm like, oh, what a great idea.
I didn't think of that one.
Like, thank you.
You've been sleepwalking your way through winning all of these national championships, obviously.
Exactly.
You're bad at swimming, all the things, but it's personal.
It's these people coming for things.
It's not substance.
No.
And that to me, I'm very fortunate that unlike what this girl said about me being insecure, I'm fortunate that I'm secure.
I have such an amazing support system, my family, my husband, my coaches, my university.
And so those things don't bother me.
And I know that's the majority of people, these negative comments, they have weight.
While I might be receiving so, so many tenfold positive comments to negative, it is these negative comments telling you to kill yourself or wishing infertility upon you or all of these just insane things people think of that weigh the most on you.
But I'm someone who's good at looking at perspective and I remember all the positive things and it's easy for me to Realign myself, reevaluate and reassess and remember why I'm doing it.
The past female athletes who fought for Title IX relentlessly.
Oh my gosh, I'm realizing how much I took for Title IX for granted.
And it wasn't that long ago.
The attacks that they got along the way.
I think people look at transgender community as a historically oppressed group, which is not false, but are we forgetting that women are historically oppressed?
Not even 50 years ago did we have these same opportunities.
The left looks at this as something as progressive.
We're moving forward.
We're being inclusive.
But it's the exact opposite.
We are not moving forward.
We're going back 50 plus years to before Title IX. We're not moving in a positive direction.
We're going backwards.
Last one I'll read here.
Jude says, the world would definitely be better without you.
Instead of tears at your funeral, there would be applause.
You're a sick, twisted, evil bitch who needs to be stopped at ever cost.
You're a vile disappointment.
And why the fuck does your face look like that?
You have an extra chromosome.
I hope your husband cheats on you because you're definitely not a real woman.
You're a literal pile of human shit wearing skin.
It goes on.
I'm not going to continue reading it, but your willingness to share these publicly You are secure.
You're strong.
You're confident.
You know your purpose, which is not to advance your own selfish or personal interests or to become famous or any of these other things that people probably accuse you of.
You are willing to take these kinds of attacks because of what you just talked about.
You understand what's at stake, not necessarily just for you or your peers, but when you look at, and I'm sure you've talked to girls in high school, girls who are coming up and who are Swimming or playing volleyball or any of these other sports and sincerely wondering what kind of future they have and for the many who are afraid to speak up because of fear of getting these kinds of attacks.
Especially those who feel insecure and who would be very negatively affected by getting this kind of message.
Unfortunately, we hear about this sometimes, probably not often enough to represent the true numbers, but young girls who get messages like this saying, kill yourself, and then sadly actually do.
The numbers of kids who are committing suicide and taking their own lives because of bullying on social media is very, very real.
And so I just want to point out that you're being willing to share this with others.
So that people who get this, number one, know they're not alone, but number two, have the strength and know that this is more of a reflection on the insecurities and fears of the people who are attacking you more than it is a reflection on you.
No doubt.
And I think that's partially why I shared these is because if you look at this, no one would think what they're saying is rational.
I don't care what side you're on.
I don't care who you are.
If you read this and think what they're saying is plausible and rational and needed, then there's something wrong.
No one should talk to anyone like that.
But like you said, the young girl, her name is Blake Allen.
She lives in Vermont.
Very similar situation.
She spoke out because she felt uncomfortable sharing a locker room with someone who sat on the benches at their volleyball game in the locker room and watched these girls undress, who was a transgender athlete, and started making inappropriate comments, all these things.
Blake then went out and talked to the administrator of the event and said, Hey, you know, we don't feel comfortable in this environment.
Long story short, she did a Fox.
Fox News hit and her dad got fired from his job.
All of these terrible, awful things.
And she's 14. 14 years old.
But she actually reached out to me and said, I can't handle the amount of negative comments I'm getting.
I can't handle being told to kill myself.
I can't handle being called hateful and all of these things and how she lives an anti-Christ life and all of these things that go against what she thought she stood up for and what her principles and what her morals were.
And so being able to shed light to her that, look, I'm in the same boat as you.
We're doing this together and I promise you it's for good.
Wow.
That's why I share these kinds of things.
Not to be a victim.
I have never wanted to be a victim.
I'm not trying to have a pity party for myself that I'm getting these messages because it's not a pity party.
It's laughable.
Yeah.
But it is to shed light on the fact that there are people who take time out of their day to send a 14 year old girl death threats.
It's absolute insanity and it's wrong.
I saw an interview that I think she and her dad gave.
And it's the same kind of situation, right?
Where the more people know that this stuff is happening, the more that others can be empowered.
Because like she reached out to you.
Now I'm sure there are people reaching out to her, young girls who are reaching out to her.
And knowing, yeah, number one, you're not alone, and number two, there are tons and tons of people whose lives, literally, whose lives are being impacted because of your courage.
I know you started an organization, or you're co-chairing an organization called NinePack, and you've been able to start to reach out through different platforms.
Can you talk a little bit about how you're proactively kind of reaching out and building this community of support?
Yes, of course.
So 9PAC is a federal PAC. Our intention is basically to kind of redefine what it is to be a modern-day feminist.
Even a year ago, I would have never considered myself a feminist.
I'm very dependent on my husband, and I feel like that's a kind of mutual relationship.
There's not this sense of total independence that I have.
But now I'm kind of realizing Is it to just understand that women deserve rights?
Is that what it takes to be a feminist?
Because if so, then I guess I am.
And so our mission is to redefine modern-day feminism, but also endorse candidates who are willing to help restore Title IX. Obviously, we have someone in the White House who is doing the opposite of that.
The Biden administration has rewritten Title IX to basically equate gender identity to sex, meaning that biological men will share dorm rooms with females.
They will share all academic honors, all sports, locker rooms, all the things.
And so 9-PAC is really willing to advocate for any candidate who's willing to advocate for Females.
Females in sports, Title IX. And regardless of what party, I think that's important to add.
It is.
Clearly, we've really only seen a big push from one side of the political spectrum, but I'm not limited to who I'm willing to endorse.
But it feels like I am.
It's been disappointing.
I'm not aware of a single Democrat in the United States House of Representatives or in the U.S. Senate who has stepped out and in support of upholding Title IX. It's crazy.
Not a single one.
And you know these people are parents to young girls.
Exactly.
Would they truly feel comfortable having their young daughter share a locker room with A 6'4 man with male parts who's still sexually active with females?
It's so crazy and that's exactly what we were faced with as 18 to 22 year old girls.
You turn around in the locker room and there is a guy with male parts who is still sexually attracted to females and has sexual activity with females watching you undress.
Are you telling me these people would be willing to let their daughters be in that same situation?
Because if so, there's a Bigger underlying issue.
It's totally insane.
And so I think people are either totally avoiding the conversation, just hoping and praying that we can get by without talking about it.
Or I think kind of maybe falsely saying they agree, or maybe they truly agree.
I have a hard time seeing how someone can agree.
Any parent would be okay with that.
And I've considered every perspective.
I'm not someone who's been closed-minded throughout this whole thing.
I've done my research.
I've talked to different athletes who disagree with me.
And I wanted to grasp, you know...
Both sides of the argument.
But as a parent, I just truly cannot imagine being okay with your daughter being in the situation that I found myself and the other female athletes in.
And this isn't something that's just happening at the college level.
It's girls all ages, all sports, all across the world.
We've got that clip of the volleyball player from Vermont and her dad will play that here.
We'll talk to our lawyer in just a moment.
Thank you both so much for coming on.
Travis, first to you.
Did I misstate what happened?
You complained about a man in the women's locker room and you were punished?
Correct.
I made a media post or sorry, a social media post that referred to the male student as a male and I was punished because I misgendered him.
You lost your job or you're suspended without pay from your job?
Correct.
As the soccer coach.
So you were the creep in this.
I have to ask, did other employees at the school take you aside and say we're on your side?
Did anyone protest your suspension?
None of the other employees did.
Other community members have supported me, though, privately.
It's beyond belief.
Thank you for complaining, by the way, at very least.
Blake Allen, what did you do wrong in the eyes of the school and how were you punished?
I was in the locker room and the trans student walked in and there was the rest of the team was in there and we were I was really uncomfortable and I left and I told the school and they just shut me down and said there's nothing they could do and I was later suspended because I voiced my opinion that a male shouldn't be in the women's locker room and then when we filed a lawsuit they dropped the suspension.
How old are you?
How old were you when this happened?
I'm 14. I'm a freshman.
You're 14 years old.
And when you complained about a dude in the girls' locker room, you got suspended.
Yes.
Can you tell us the name of the person who made that decision?
Lane Millington.
Yeah.
And how did this adult communicate your suspension to you?
What did you do wrong in the view of this adult?
I think they were mad that I was telling people how I thought it was wrong and that a male shouldn't be allowed to be with us in the locker room.
You're 14 years old.
Tell us what your classmates thought.
Were they on your side?
Yeah, a lot of my classmates were supportive.
I think most people in the school are.
They're just too scared to speak up because they see all the backlash I'm getting for it.
Well, you're very brave.
Because not only was I suspended, Thank you.
I was going to do a restorative justice circle and write a letter of apology.
To whom?
To the dude?
The trans student.
To the boy who was in the girls' locker room?
Yes.
You have to write a letter of apology.
And I said I would rather have a five-day suspension than have to apologize because I'm not sorry.
For stating my opinion.
God bless you.
How old was the boy?
Fourteen.
14. Huh.
What are you going to do?
Are you going to continue with the school?
Yeah, for now.
It's all so unbelievable.
It really is.
And it's only when people like you, Travis Allen and Blake Allen, take the lumps, stand up, tell the truth for just basic...
Basic human rights, like the right to change without some guy staring at you.
It's only when you do that that things get better.
So I appreciate that you both did and that you're willing to talk on this show.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thanks for having us.
I want to go now to your lawyer, Tyson Langhofer, who serves at Senior Counsel at Alliance Defending Freedom.
Tyson, thanks for coming on.
What is the case that you're making on behalf of these two?
Sure.
Well, the school district, they retaliated against both Blake and Travis for just simply stating their views.
And First Amendment retaliation is prohibited by the Constitution.
I mean, that's very clear that the government cannot retaliate against individuals simply for sharing their views.
I mean, the crazy thing about this, Tucker, is that Blake understands this issue.
She doesn't need to be reeducated.
Males are males, females are females.
And Blake shouldn't be forced to, you know, change in front of a male or watch a male change, but that's what they're forcing her to do.
And they're trying to force their ideology down everybody's throat and then punish anybody that has a different viewpoint.
That's unconstitutional.
Well, I thought they cared about girls, too.
14-year-old girls don't have a right to get dressed without a boy watching?
I mean, is anyone standing up for girls?
I mean, I'm hardly a feminist, but what?
Where are all the feminist groups?
Yeah, it's a good question.
I mean, and that's the really sad thing is when a father comes and says, hey, who's standing up for my daughter?
He gets punished.
He loses his job.
He's suspended without pay for simply saying, hey, what about my daughter?
You don't know.
Well, the sad thing is, is all the other fathers who didn't do that, who are cowering like the cowards they are in their homes and letting this happen to their girls without fighting back.
They should feel deep shame, and I hope they do.
And I appreciate your coming on.
Tyson, thank you.
That just makes me so emotional for this girl, for the situation.
I just don't know how someone could hear that and think what she is saying and what her father is saying should result in the punishment that they had.
Exactly.
Or that, but also that it's okay, you know?
This is something that now enough time has gone by really over the last couple of years, I think it's been reported publicly, how in situations like this, they aren't Just some kind of innocent happening or mistake.
This is being sanctioned and being protected by the people who are responsible for protecting these young girls.
And there are examples of actual abuse and assault taking place in these situations, not only in You know, elementary or K-12 schools, but obviously there are other examples as we've seen in prisons and in other places where they bring in trans men into a women's facility and, you know, there's been rape, there's been, you know, women being impregnated and so on.
There are too many examples now for people to deny what is actually happening.
Well, I think this whole thing, and I truly think the Leah Thomas situation was a big part in kind of like a door being opened.
Right.
You see someone who as a male was a mediocre swimmer, but nowhere near national champion level.
But you see this person who was that winning national titles, getting to change in a locker room with women, who, if you're a guy, that sounds pretty cool, right?
Yeah.
So I think it's opened a door for opportunities for people who have mental disorders or some sort of dysphoria to seek out, but at the expense of females.
And I think, of course, people think this is inclusive and we're including everyone, but we're not including people at no expense.
We're including them while excluding female athletes.
Females in general, this isn't something that's limited to just sports at this point.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's the bigger picture here that I think is often lost on this.
Earlier this year, FINA, is it F-I-N-A, FINA? Yes, FINA. They govern the sport of swimming and banned biological men from competing against women as long as those are men who began their transition after swimming.
age 12.
So obviously this would have banned, had it been in place sooner, it would have banned Leah Thomas from competing against you.
What do you think about this ruling and how will it impact women's, I guess, women's swimming directly, but what impact do you think it'll have on female athletes overall?
And is it enough?
So I think it's definitely a bold first step in the right direction.
Because at this point when FINA released this, there was still not a lot of talk, especially from big organizations that had the power to make these changes.
There's most definitely flaws in this ruling.
Saying you have to fully transition by the age of 12, that's insane.
How can we expect 12 year olds to fully transition?
At 12 years old, you have no idea what the implications of this might look like for your whole life.
That was my first thought when I heard this ruling is like, okay, this is a step in the right direction, but it also has a dangerous, perhaps unintended consequence of maybe parents or kids feeling like if there's any confusion or question that perhaps unintended consequence of maybe parents or kids feeling like if there's any confusion or question that they need to make this decision even earlier as an actual child who shouldn't even
What to speak of being equipped to make a decision that will literally change their lives forever.
What to speak of the negative physical and health consequences that we've already seen in some kids who Who have transitioned, kids like Chloe Cole, who've transitioned and then regretted it and then trying to detransition but still experiencing what will be lifelong negative health consequences.
Exactly.
You can't help but think that.
Parents who ultimately want to push their children in this direction, now it's available.
So there's definitely flaws within this ruling.
But it was nice to know that someone was willing to acknowledge the inherent flaws.
And biological differences between men and women.
This banned Leah Thomas and any transgender athlete from competing at an international level, which includes the Olympics, which is great because Leah Thomas, in an interview, and really the only interview Leah Thomas has done since swimming and winning the national title, Leah had said that they were fully set on taking up an Olympic team spot as a female athlete.
Each event, there are only two spots in swimming.
And Leah was fully prepared and wanting to take one of those two spots, which to me shows the self-centeredness.
It shows the utter disregard and disrespect to women.
Since that interview, which in that same interview, Leah Thomas said that if you don't support trans people in sports, then you're not allowed to support them at all, which is crazy.
But since that one interview, Leah has not done really anything else in terms of being outspoken.
But this past week, Leah was nominated as Philadelphia's 2022 Most Influential Female.
No kidding.
You have to think the city has a problem if this person who has done nothing but one interview and swam as what's not on their birth certificate is the most influential female That's been in the whole city the whole year.
It's just wild.
So it shows me that we're praising this.
We're encouraging this.
We're celebrating this.
Which was also evident when the NCAA nominated Thomas for 2022 NCAA Woman of the Year, which is the highest collegiate honor for all of female athletics.
This is something that embodies...
Your character, your leadership, your academics, your service, your athletic achievements, all of these fantastic things.
And they chose Leah Thomas.
Of the quarter million athletes in the U.S. across all divisions, they nominated 500. And I found out I was one.
I was so excited.
And then they released a full list.
And instantly, this award became totally meaningless to me, which is so sad to have the most prestigious honor for all of women in college sports be devalued.
Yeah.
We've got a CNN article here, headline, Transgender Swimmer Leah Thomas Nominated for NCAA 2022 Woman of the Year Award.
Can you go down a little bit?
Yeah, I mean, the article just goes on to talk about Leah Thomas' record in competing in women's sports, being the first transgender the article just goes on to talk about Leah Thomas' record in competing in women's sports, being the first transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I recording the fastest time of the NCAA season.
Thomas, who previously swam for the Penn's men's team, Brought renewed attention to the debate on trans women's participation in sports and the balance between inclusion and fair play during a time when states across the US are passing laws aiming to curb the rights of transgender people.
She first launched into the public eye with a stunning performance at the Zippy Invitational in Ohio in December when she set NCAA season best times in the 200-yard and 500-yard freestyle races and won the 100-yard, 200- and 500-yard freestyle races at the Ivy League Women's Championship in February.
In a May interview with ABC, the swimmer talked about feeling depressed early in college before her transition.
She began hormone replacement therapy in 2019 and following NCAA protocols took a year off swimming, took a year off swimming before joining the UPenn women's team in 2020. Well, that's another important thing to mention is this person took a full year off of practicing, off of competing, and still wins a national title.
Swimming is not a sport you get time off.
In all of my college, all four years of my college, in total, we probably got three weeks off combined.
Wow.
You're at school the entire summer.
You're at school all the way up until Christmas Eve.
You go home Christmas Eve.
You have to come back the day after Christmas.
You're there for Thanksgiving.
You're there for spring break.
You don't get to leave.
You don't get to take a year off.
Nevertheless, a day off.
It sets you back so much in an aquatic sport because if you think about it, our bodies aren't meant to be in water.
We're land animals.
And so it's something you constantly have to work towards because it's not natural.
So to take a full year And not swim over COVID. Here I am swimming every single day in a lake in a wetsuit because it's the only pool I had.
Oh my gosh.
And this person gets to not swim at all and then become in Sibley, woman of the year.
I think that's important in showing that this just makes a mockery of us and what we do and what we've dedicated our lives to.
Yeah.
So what's next?
You know, we talked about how the Biden administration is undermining women, erasing women through this erasure of women by redefining Title IX. Are there lawsuits?
Are there more female athletes who are ready to stand up?
I would imagine there's a class action opportunity for this entire group of people, women, who are being directly, personally harmed.
the way, is circumventing Congress.
They're trying to backdoor this through administrative changes and rule changes, which is a whole other issue and problem, which directly means we, the American people, have no say.
It's like, oh, well, you can submit comments.
That's literally the limit of what we can do.
Submitting comments doesn't mean they're reading them, doesn't mean they're listening to them, doesn't mean we actually have a voice in this.
So they're silencing the American people, the majority of whom are not okay with this.
I think polls have actually shown this.
The majority of people are not okay with this change and these actions and the consequences on their kids and their daughters.
And yet the Biden administration is pushing this through no matter what.
So what can we do about it?
What can we support in order to try to take a stand to stop this?
Well, to answer your first question, there are lawsuits going on.
Lots of different female athletes who have been willing to speak up across.
I know there are several in track, Blake Allen.
There's several, but they're expensive and few and far between, really.
But it's good.
And I think, as a society, we're kind of reaching a tipping point.
Um, I think more people are seeing this happening and not just in sports, like we said, seeing all the gender ideology things that are going in education in schools right now.
Um, I, I think the needle is here and we've pushed it so far one way that even within the democratic party, people aren't okay with this.
And I think people are starting to realize it's a majority who's not okay with this.
And I'm beginning to feel the mood shift and I'm beginning to feel like people are more willing to state these basic facts, which is a good thing.
We'll see.
I'm very interested to see where this goes in the future, but what to do to help.
I think there are lots of different outlets through social media.
Icons Women is an organization that has a website.
I believe it's www.iconswomen.org.
But they have always post breaking stories.
They have videos to different science lectures and seminars and things that really dive into what the biological difference are, the percentages, the numbers, the raw data, which is fantastic for people to see.
They have lots of different resources connecting female athletes, which is great because...
We didn't really know how to connect ourselves.
You don't know who you can talk to, really.
It's hard.
It feels like you're kind of walking on eggshells when you're talking about this with other girls your age because it's so hit or miss on how people feel about it.
But they have resources to connect female athletes across the country, all ages, all sports, which is great.
And that was iconwomens.org?
Yes.
ICON stands for Independent Council on Women's Sports.
It was formed by Marshy Smith, who was a national champion in the 200 backstroke.
I remember Marshy.
I believe in 2005. Yes.
Swimmer at University of Arizona.
And then also Kim Jones, who was an All-American tennis player at Stanford, who has a daughter who swims at...
Yale and swam against Leah Thomas this past year, multiple times, multiple different meets.
And so that's fantastic.
But I think truly the most important thing to do is just use your voice.
We are at a time where future generations depend on it.
They depend on strong, courageous leaders who will pave the way for them.
Because this is something that they don't understand yet.
They can't use their voice.
They don't understand the implications of what this will have on themselves.
And so using your voice, regardless of if you have some sort of personal experience or this direct effect that you face or anything like that, you don't need that.
You just need a voice and you just need to know that women deserve respect.
And I think it's plain and simple.
It might seem hard to say those things, but if it's hard to say those things, it seems like that's the bare minimum, asking for equal opportunities for women.
I think courage is contagious.
It's something that I've seen.
It's something that I've been told from athletes all across the country.
And so I think using your voice is just crucial right now.
Yeah, thank you for that.
I couldn't agree more.
We've got the website pulled up here.
It's iconswomen.com.
And I think the tools here that you're talking about, the information that's shared here, people who want to speak up might not know how to talk about it.
They might not know, you know, you know, the statistics or the data or the information that they can share to really, again, just point to facts.
This is not a discriminatory or a negative conversation to have.
It's about taking a stand for women, and I think there are phenomenal tools here for people to reference as they're thinking about, well, I want to post something online about this, or I want to talk to, you know, my Bible study group or, you know, friends who I'm hanging out with.
This will help provide you with a lot of information and background knowledge on it to help you share that story and make that argument.
You do it so well, Riley, when I saw you at the Independent Women's Forum, which by the way is also an incredible resource and organization.
You shared with me before you went on stage and then also you mentioned it when you were on stage that it is times like this that leaders are born and And you shared how you felt like, Like, you know,
God had put you in this place for this time so that you could be this leading voice and that those actual literal and figurative broad shoulders that you have represent the strength that so many others God had put you in this place for this time so that you could be this leading voice and that those actual literal and figurative broad shoulders that you have represent the strength that so many others look to,
So thank you for being who you are.
Thank you for not backing down from the fight, but instead running towards the fire instead of away from it.
You're inspiring so many people that you will probably never ever get the chance to meet, but who will forever be impacted by your work and your voice.
Well, thank you so much.
You are a huge part in that as well.
Everything you just described about me, it's like you're talking about yourself.
So I am so grateful for leaders like you who are just willing to state the facts.
So thank you.
Thank you.
I am so appreciative for you and everything you've done.
So very, very grateful.
Proud to be in the trenches with you, sister.
We got a lot of work to do.
Thank you so much, Riley.
We'll talk to you again soon.
Yes, thank you.
I want to encourage you to check out Riley's organization, The Nine Pack.
Consider making a contribution if you can.
She's working really hard.
She's doing a lot of outreach.
She's out on a college speaking tour right now where she's already, not surprisingly, being met with protests from people who are seeking to silence her.
She is not at all being deterred, but she does need our support.
Unfortunately, a lot of college campuses have become indoctrination centers for this destructive brand of feminism, so-called feminism.
There's, as one example, incoming students who are going to Princeton University, one of the Ivy Leagues.
They receive a handout when they arrive that includes a And it states with authority that there's no room for debate on what they state is trans women are women, and that there are, quote, no ifs, ands, or buts about it, end of quote.
So for someone who may be going to that school, if they simply acknowledge the biological reality of the differences between the male and female sex— They're not welcome at Princeton.
Dissent is not tolerated.
Disagreement is not tolerated.
Acknowledgement of objective truth is not tolerated.
These radical views are not open for discussion.
Their view is you either accept what they're telling you as gospel truth without skepticism, critical thinking, or question, or find someplace else to go to school.
This undermines the very foundational principle and vision our founders had for this country where in society and especially in college campuses that this open marketplace of ideas would be encouraged, that you could have these open conversations and walk away still treating each other with respect.
Maybe you agree to disagree.
But you can do so without being disagreeable.
You can do so without facing the kind of negative intimidation and censorship and silencing and cancellation that we're seeing happening now.
But this points to the cultural and institutional headwinds that our kids, our young people are up against, that people in our society are up against.
Now, women like Riley, and she's not the only one, they're at the forefront of this battle and they're looking to redefine through their own experience, sharing their own experiences, what it means to be a modern day feminist.
Riley understands the definition of this insanity.
She has and continues to live through it, and her message is loud and clear about how necessary it is that we as a society change course.
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