Tucker Confronts Mike Huckabee on America’s Toxic Relationship With Israel
The Mike Huckabee interview, and the truth about America’s deeply unhealthy relationship with Israel.
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Chapters:
0:00 Why We Were Interrogated in Israel
25:38 Why Did Huckabee Meet With American Traitor Jonathan Pollard?
34:26 Has Huckabee Advocated to Extradite Sex Offenders Who Flee From the US to Israel?
40:26 Why Are There Still Classified Epstein Files?
49:19 Is the Israel of the Bible the Current Secular Government of Israel?
1:15:50 Is Israel's Christian Population Declining?
1:17:45 Who Has a Right to the Land of Israel?
1:35:06 The Killing of Christians in Gaza
1:47:40 Benjamin Netanyahu's Calls for Genocide
1:52:28 Huckabee Accuses Tony Aguilar of Lying
1:58:05 Fighting Wars on Israel's Behalf
1:58:49 Why Are 9-11 Files Still Classified?
2:00:15 Netanyahu's Many Visits to the White House
2:01:16 The Nuclear Weapons That Israel Stole
2:01:58 Why Is the US Sending Israel So Much Money?
2:03:48 Is Huckabee Okay With Israel Providing Free Abortions?
2:12:30 How Many Americans Support War With Iran?
2:17:49 Was the War on Iraq Really About 9-11?
2:21:53 Israel's Sabotaging of US Negotiations With Iran
2:24:44 How Many Journalists Has Israel Killed in Gaza?
2:25:53 Is Huckabee Concerned About the Persecution of Christians?
We're about to play you an interview we did with U.S. Ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee two days ago in Israel.
In general, it's never worth talking about the backstory behind an interview.
It's kind of not the point.
It makes it about the interviewer, not the person being interviewed.
For one thing, for another, it's not that interesting most of the time.
And for another, it's kind of off the record.
You know, the other person hasn't consented to you telling the story.
So in general, we don't do that.
Who'd want to hear that?
Let the interview speak for itself.
But in this case, we want to tell you just a few things about how this interview came about because they are pretty interesting, revealing, and now weirdly relevant, apparently.
So this interview with Mike Huckabee came about a couple of weeks ago on Twitter.
One of our producers showed me, he said something to the effect of, you're talking to Middle Eastern Christians, Tucker Carlson.
Maybe you should talk to me.
Why don't you come do an interview?
And I paused for a minute.
I've thought in the past about trying to interview Mike Huckabee, whom I've known for over 30 years and worked adjacent to at Fox.
And I had mixed feelings about it, mostly because it's hard, if you're me, to interview Mike Huckabee because of just the personal affect.
Mike Huckabee is jovial, comes off as friendly.
He's a grandfather.
When annoyed, I can be nasty in interviews.
And so it takes a lot of self-control to interview someone like Mike Huckabee, not because I hate him, but because it's hard to ask him tough questions and not come off as a jerk, which I often am.
So, but I thought in this case, yeah, I should definitely do this for a bunch of different reasons.
Mainly, the United States is moving toward a big war, a real war with Iran, a regime change war, the biggest war we've had since the invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003.
We are doing this at the behest, at the demand of the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
So it seems like now is the time for more Americans to understand the dynamic between the U.S. and Israel and to call attention to that.
And for another, Huckabee's behavior in the last year in Jerusalem as the ambassador has been very, very striking.
He famously had a meeting with the most damaging spy in American history.
And why did he do that?
He hadn't been asked by anybody up until two days ago, why did you do that?
So I wanted to be able to ask him that.
And so we accepted and then began the usual negotiations about when and where the interview would take place.
And we were constrained because we weren't expecting this.
We wanted to do it quickly, but we had tons of travel.
So we threw them a date, them being the American embassy.
We can do it on this date.
And they were very accommodating.
And then the question became, well, where do we do it?
Maybe a Christian holy site.
We said, we've got to get in and out really quick.
Got to be back to do a bunch of other interviews, but we've got this timeframe.
They said, well, why don't you do it at the U.S. Embassy?
Or maybe we said that.
Great U.S. Embassy.
So the U.S. Embassy is about an hour, 55 minutes from the big airport in Israel, Ben-Gurion.
So we said, okay, what about security?
Now, at this time, the Israeli government, the prime minister included, were attacking me in this show.
Netanyahu, who suggested I was a Nazi, for example.
And so we thought, you know, how about security?
Obviously.
Not because the Israeli government necessarily would do something bad, but because there are a lot of people in Israel who think, because they've been told, you know, that I'm an anti-Semite or a Nazi or want to kill Jews.
It's kind of crazy overstatement.
All untrue, obviously.
But it would be good to have security.
And I should say, having done interviews on six out of seven continents over 35 years, I'm not very security conscious at all.
Never really feel uncomfortable.
Would this seem like a prudent thing to do?
So we were told by the embassy spokesman, no, we're not going to provide security.
And so we said, okay, I guess we'll get private security, but could we get someone from the embassy to ride in the car with us from the airport to the interview?
And we were told, no, could we get what they call a control officer, just an American, with us in an official capacity as an embassy employee with us?
No, quote, for legal reasons, we can't do that.
So I thought, well, that's very strange.
And then they said, but instead, we're turning you over to the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, MFA, and they're going to arrange everything in Israel.
Well, this was within 24 hours of the deputy foreign minister, Sharon Haskell, releasing a video calling me an anti-Semite and an enemy of Israel.
This was the person who the embassy was telling us was going to handle all of our travel.
So it was at this point that I just called.
I called the spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Israel and I said, okay, I'm an American citizen responding to an invitation from the American ambassador to Israel.
And by the way, I'm the son of U.S. ambassador, so I have some sense.
I'm not an expert, obviously, but I have some sense of how this works.
And I think that the U.S. ambassador has discretion to send somebody from his office to the airport to accompany someone in.
I think that's right.
And if it's not right, tell me what law you're talking about, what legal reason you're talking about that would prevent that.
And now you're sending me over to a government official who's been calling me a Nazi.
That's the person in charge of getting us to the embassy.
Like, what is going on here?
And the embassy spokesman, who's totally nice, said, well, this was the decision of someone called David Brownstein.
He's the DCM, the number two guy in the embassy.
And I said, well, put him on a text exchange.
Like, what is going on here?
And so Brownstein got on and didn't answer the question, but basically said, well, okay, let's just do the interview at the airport in the diplomatic reception area at the airport.
Okay, I said, we're going to be flying in from Europe and we had to be in and out really quickly.
So at great expense, we chartered a plane, which I never do because I'm cheap.
But we did.
And so then I said to them, okay, I want to send you the flight information, tail number, flight number, route, and I want you to pass that on to the Israeli military just so they don't mistake us for an Iranian drone or something.
I mean, not to be paranoid, but again, this is probably the most violent country in the world, Israel.
Is there a country in the world where a higher percentage of the population has held a gun or shot someone?
I mean, I don't know the answer, but this is a country famously waging a seven-front war with all of its neighbors.
You know, so this is also the country that bombed the USS Liberty knowing, and we know this from NSA intercepts, that it was an American ship.
So don't, you know, just send the military our flight information.
And, you know, we can all just sort of know it's on the record and we can all calm down a little bit.
No, they said.
The U.S. Embassy said, no, this is your flight is not a matter of concern to the Israeli military.
I said, okay, now you're making me uncomfortable.
Isn't the airspace of Israel the purview of the Israeli military?
Aren't they in charge of maintaining the integrity of their airspace?
When you fly over the country of Israel or any country, its military keeps track of you because that's their job.
So why wouldn't you send our flight information to the Israeli military?
You're making me nervous.
I sent this exchange.
I took a screenshot of it and sent it to a bunch of people, including in the U.S. government, because I'm not a paranoid person and I'm not a jumpy person.
I said, is this weird behavior?
Yeah, it's really weird behavior.
All of them said that.
So I got pretty aggressive and just said, look, you got to do this.
Okay.
And they, to their credit, got back to us and said, yes, we will do that.
But I just thought that was completely bizarre and menacing, by the way.
Now, at the same time, and I think this is relevant, certainly it goes to motive.
I was attempting to set up a meeting as I have been for the past three months with the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, who I've dealt with a lot in the past and who denounced me as a Nazi in public, a member of the woke Reich.
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And so I really pushed hard for this meeting, and I called a lot of people who know him and who are in regular contact with him.
In fact, I went to go see some of those people directly.
Please, can you help me get a sit down for five minutes with Benjamin Netanyahu?
And I probably called or met with six, seven, eight, maybe more people on this question.
People in official capacities, people in the Israeli government.
I know.
I know a number of people in the Israeli government, people in Israel, a friend of mine in California who knows him.
The Israeli government and Netanyahu himself tried to punish two members of my family.
I won't be more specific, but actually punish two members of my family because he, as he has said in public many times, believes in blood guilt, Amalek.
You know, when someone commits a crime against you, you punish not just him, but his family, his bloodline.
There's no idea that's less Western than that, more anti-Christian than that.
Christians reject that.
Netanyahu doesn't.
That's why he's talking about Amalek.
And he was going after my family, literally.
So I felt very threatened by that.
But moreover, I think it's bad for my country to have people using that kind of language, round him up, bring him to the camps, gas chambers, Nazis, anti-Semitism.
It scares the heck out of people.
It makes people crazy and hysterical.
And certainly in my case, none of that is true.
I hate collective punishment.
I hate attacking people on the basis of their bloodline.
I hate anti-Semitism and anti-white racism and all of this, or any kind of racism, period.
And I've said that a lot.
So using that kind of language against someone who is not fundamentally your enemy, who just, in my case, I want Christians in areas controlled by Israel to be treated with dignity, to have rights.
And I don't want the U.S. government involved in a war, a regime change war with Iran.
Those are my priorities, and I've said them out loud.
I have no secret agenda.
So to attack me as a Nazi for saying that suggests a total unwillingness to compromise.
You know, anyone who doesn't agree with us 100% must be destroyed.
His family must be attacked, my family, and must be written off as a Nazi.
Well, when you do that, it makes people hysterical.
It increases the temperature to a point that someone's going to get hurt if you keep talking that way.
And it's just bad.
It's bad for the United States.
It's bad for the world.
So I wanted to deliver that message.
I finally wound up talking to a guy called Yoram Hazoni, who is an Israeli who famously organizes the American conservative national conservatism conferences.
And I said to him, look, you're having a national conservatism conference in Jerusalem this summer.
You asked me to speak at the first, I think the first national conservatism conference in the United States.
And I did.
Obviously, I believe in national conservatism, America first.
I think every nation should put its own people first.
And moreover, I would like you to ask your friend Benjamin Netanyahu to meet with me.
And we had this sort of long back and forth.
And it was, no, you cannot speak at the National Conservatism Conference because you're an anti-Semite.
No, I'm not.
I said, yes, you are.
He said.
And I said, well, I really would like to speak to Bibi to kind of de-escalate this.
And he said, it would not be in his political interest to meet with you.
It's almost verbatim what he said.
Therefore, no.
So then I realized, you know, you're dealing with people who are unreasonable, who are inflexible, who are in fact fanatical.
And then add to that, of course, that my tax dollars are paying them.
You know, it's all pretty distressing.
So that was the backdrop behind our very brief and highly intense trip to Israel.
So we show up on Wednesday, flying from Europe, again, at great expense, and show up at the diplomatic terminal of Ben-Gurion Airport where this interview is going to take place, which is bizarre in itself, a filthy building.
The windows are so dirty in the terminal, you can't see out them barely.
There's like exposed drywall.
The whole thing is depressing and grim.
There's litter outside.
Like, what is this?
This is the diplomatic terminal in Israel.
I thought that was very strange.
Having been in a lot of diplomatic terminals, I've never seen a rattier one.
We go in and Huckabee's there.
And of course, he's totally friendly, as he always is.
Very, very friendly guy and cheerful and would sort of chat.
And the whole place is filled with these guys in t-shirts, thuggish looking guys in t-shirts who are some kind of security.
So we do the interview.
You're about to watch it.
It's very long, two and a half hours-ish.
And I try my hardest to be friendly.
I think I kind of succeeded.
You can judge for yourself.
But I really got the sense.
And again, you can decide as you watch it that Huckabee was not able to answer any of the questions, but also not really in charge.
You really got the feeling of a guy sort of trying his best to repeat the talking points, but very constrained, like unable to say certain things, not because those things might harm the interest of the U.S. government.
He was happy to attack, for example, the U.S. military and say they're more brutal than the Israeli military, okay?
But unwilling to say certain things because they might reflect poorly on the Israeli government.
And you sort of thinking about this for a second, you're like, wait, you're the U.S. ambassador.
You're our representative to a foreign country.
Why is your red line criticism of that country?
Shouldn't you be representing us?
And it was very obvious he was representing the Israelis.
Obvious.
And again, you can judge for yourself.
But anyway, so we do this interview.
It was cordial.
And at the end, we're set to fly out.
We have a time.
We have to get out.
And the plane is sitting right outside and we're ready to go.
And for some reason, the Israelis still have our passports.
There are five of us there.
And four of us are flying out on this plane.
One's flying out commercial with our gear.
So my business partner and I sort of standing there.
We've never left the airport, never went anywhere.
But our two producers have spent the night the night before in Tel Aviv.
And they're called into rooms and given the third degree.
Now, keep in mind, they're about to get on a plane and leave.
In fact, we're late.
We have to get out of there.
We have a slot to get out.
And security, whoever this is, won't let them go.
So I don't really know what's going on at this point.
I'm like, where are our guys?
We got to get out of here.
So one of them comes out and he says, that was the weirdest experience of my life.
They asked me questions about the interview.
Who did you speak to?
Keep in mind, this was like eight feet from where we did the interview.
Well, the U.S. ambassador.
I'm like, Huckabee, what did you talk about?
Why did you ask those questions?
Was it a hostile interview?
Now, of course, everything in the diplomatic terminal is taped.
Everything in Israel is taped.
It's a police state.
It's a surveillance state, obviously.
You go to Israel, they put software on your phone.
Everybody knows this.
They're constantly spying on you more than probably any other country.
And so they know the answers to these questions, but they're asking my producer, like, where do you work?
How many people work there?
Do you go to the office?
Where is the office?
What are their names?
They're doing like an Intel op and humiliation exercise on my producer.
This isn't security.
We're leaving right now.
And they're holding his passport.
The interrogator is holding the passport in his hand as he's asking these questions.
So he's telling me this.
And I said, this is the most outrageous thing I've ever heard.
Huckabee's gone by this point.
You're an American citizen who's just had a conversation with the U.S. ambassador and some thug is demanding details of that conversation.
And I hope you didn't answer.
And he's like, no, I didn't.
I don't know what to say.
Meanwhile, our last guy, the youngest man who was traveling with us, our last producer, is still in a room being questioned.
So I pull over one of the guys and said, we got to get out of here.
So I don't know what this is about.
It's outrageous.
And, you know, there's nothing I can do about this point, but we got to go.
And this woman comes up to me and says, look, let's just go.
We're going to bring you to the plane and he'll come later.
I said, no, it's my producer.
He's being interrogated, asked totally over the top, fully inappropriate questions that have nothing to do with security at all.
You know, pull up your website.
Show us your text exchanges with other people on your staff.
What are your politics like?
And again, what did you say to the U.S. ambassador and what did he say back to you?
Those are not relevant questions if you're trying to keep your country secure.
Those are Intel questions.
And they're over the top.
And I said, I want this guy out now.
Let's go, you know, we got to go.
And they said, no, no, just leave him here.
We'll bring him to the plane later.
Twice they told me that.
Just leave your guy behind.
No, I don't think so.
So I was enraged by this.
Get on the plane.
We get a text from a reporter who somehow knew that this had happened.
I have no idea how.
I had no interest in publicizing it, actually.
There was, you know, a long trail that showed that the U.S. embassy had been coordinating against us in a public relations battle before we even got there.
You know, they were leaking that we demanded to do it at the airport because we were afraid to go into Israel.
We're cowards.
Okay.
We're cowards.
Right.
And so I just said to the reporter by text, you know, they pulled my guys into a room, interrogating them.
This is outrageous, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
The interesting thing is, I never heard from Huckabee or anybody to this moment from the U.S. Embassy about what security did to my producers.
They didn't ask us.
And instead, Huckabee went out and called me a liar.
So it raises, again, the question: who exactly is Huckabee working for?
We're American citizens in a foreign country.
He's our ambassador.
He represents our country.
We pay his salary, but he's taking the side of the foreign government without even calling to say, hey, what happened to you at the airport?
He just immediately repeats their lies without even consulting us.
So, like, what are we looking at here?
We're looking at the reality, which is if you're an American in Israel, you can be certain that your government will take the side of the Israeli government and not your side.
And really, is that so different from the experience of Americans in the United States?
Can you be sure that your government will take your side over the Israeli government?
No, of course not.
They will always take the Israeli government's side over yours.
And that's the core problem.
Even if you support a war with Iran, I think we really, the most pressing issue for Americans is that we kill the Ayatollah or whatever.
You still have a fair expectation that your government, because it is yours, you pay for it.
It exists to serve you and for no other reason.
You have an expectation that your government will take your side against a foreign government.
But the daily lived reality, the obvious truth visible to every single American, is that's the opposite of reality.
In fact, if you criticize Israel in your country, your government will work to censor you.
If there's a standoff between you and Bibi, you know whose side your government's going to take, BB's side.
It's too clearly an inversion of the natural order.
Your government exists for you, not for a foreign government.
But that's not how we live in this country or in Israel.
So that's what we learned.
And one last thing: the Israelis apparently went, probably with the help of Mike Huckabee, went to the surveillance tape inside the diplomatic terminal and pulled some clip.
And they're, of course, getting all their little bots online to promote it of me with my arm around somebody to show that actually I'm lying about what happened.
That person was our driver who drove us from the plane to the terminal, a short drive.
Very nice guy, good guy, Israeli guy.
And right when we arrived, and he said, could I get a picture?
Of course.
He's a nice man.
So I just put my arm around him, took a picture.
That's what that is.
That was before the interview.
It was before our producers were hassled by the thugs and asked ridiculous questions.
It was before any of this happened.
So that's just another installment of the propaganda war.
I thought we'd give you the backstory on that.
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So with that, here is our interview with Ambassador Mike Huckabee.
Later, his wife passed away here in Israel, and I sent him a note and just said, I'm sorry to hear about your wife.
I remember meeting her at the hotel and sorry to hear it.
He then asked, could he come and see me?
He wanted to come and thank me for being kind to him.
He came to the embassy.
I think we met for maybe 30 minutes.
We had a nice, pleasant visit.
The funny thing was the New York Times reported that it was a secret meeting.
Tucker, if you've ever been to the U.S. Embassy, you would know there's no such thing as a secret meeting at the U.S. Embassy.
There are cameras everywhere.
You walk through Marines.
You walk through security.
You walk through the front office and there's a dozen or more people that are going to check you out when you come.
And before you get there, you're going to have to give us your passport information.
You're going to have to be vetted and screened and all of this stuff.
So the idea that it was secret was ludicrous.
The whole idea is, look, Jonathan Pollard did something that was terribly wrong.
He sold secrets.
He shouldn't have done it.
He was sentenced to 30 years in prison and spent 30.
Actually, he was, I think, yeah, I think he was sentenced to maybe more than 30 years, but he spent 30 years in prison.
Most people convicted of something similar, which was one count, I believe, would have spent two to four, but he spent 30.
I don't have a problem with him spending 30 because I think what he did was despicable.
I'm not defending anything about what he did.
But even people like the former director of the CIA, a number of other senators on the Senate Foreign Relations of the Senate Intel Committee said that he should be allowed to leave and move to Israel if he wanted to.
So it, to me, was not as big a deal that I had this basically courtesy meeting.
He wanted to thank me for being nice to him when his wife died.
You advocated for his release when you ran for, I remember it, in 2011, long before he had served 30 years.
And I agree with you that there are a lot of people languishing in prison, you know, in our country and in this country, many countries, you know, for longer periods than they deserve.
And I think it's a Christian impulse to want to see them free.
But this was the greatest traitor in modern American history who sold our battle plans, sold our battle plans against the Soviet Union, our main enemy in the Cold War, to the Israeli government, which according to our Reagan CIA director, Bill Casey, then gave them to the Soviet Union.
So this was the most profound betrayal of the United States in my lifetime.
Why advocate for that guy's release before he serves his full sentence?
If that were the case in 2011, it would have been because I had a number of friends that suggested that he had more than served a time and he didn't want to live in the U.S. anymore.
He wanted to live in Israel.
But my association with him, again, I had never met him until I met him in Jerusalem at a hotel.
That was the first time I had ever encountered him.
So trust me, I do not judge people who are friends or know or enjoy the company of immoral people because it's not an endorsement of their immoral behavior.
Pollard is different.
I think once you become U.S. Ambassador, the representative of the President of the United States in the United States of America in a foreign country, and then you invite not only the most damaging betrayer in our lifetimes, but also a guy who continues to advocate for betrayal.
So he gave an interview, as I know you know, in 2021 to Israeli media in which he said, I would encourage Jewish Americans with security clearances to spy for Mossad against their own country, the United States, because, and I'm pretty much quoting him, all Jews should have dual loyalty.
That's a, I mean, that's not repentance.
That's not someone who feels bad about what he did.
That's someone who's encouraging American Jews to betray their country.
Do you see why the U.S. ambassador hosting a convicted betrayer of his own country who's encouraging Americans to continue to betray their country would seem shocking?
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There have been Americans in prison in Israel.
There have also been, and there continue to be, dozens and dozens and dozens of sex offenders, accused sex offenders from the United States who fled to Israel, including one recently, an Israeli government official, who was caught trying to molest a 15-year-old girl and fled to Israel and is not going back to the United States to stand charges for attempted molestation of a child.
Have you advocated for the Israeli government to return him to the United States?
Yeah, I heard about it, but I heard about it through open source media.
was never something that was presented to us, but I would have no problem with him being extradited back to the U.S. You're the president's and our country's representative in the state of Israel.
There has never been a request for me to engage in that.
I would be happy to do it.
If the White House sent a message to me, I do work for the president.
I serve it as pleasure.
If anyone at the White House were to say to me, would you please go and make a case for it?
But probably if that were to happen, it wouldn't come through the embassy as much as it would likely come from the Department of Justice at the U.S. in D.C.
They would make the request.
They might involve us, but they very likely would not.
Does it seem strange to you that people accused of child molestation in the United States are allowed to have refuge within the borders of our closest ally?
That doesn't make sense to me.
Well, I would say that if you've molested an American child, shouldn't you be required to do it?
In fact, there's an Israeli group that keeps track of them that is dedicated, Jewish-Israeli group dedicated to combating the molestation of children and keeps a long list.
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Well, they are, and I'll give you a, and I just want to make sure that I pronounce this man's name correctly.
It's Tom, I believe, Alexandrovich.
I think that's right.
And I've written it down, but of course, my handwriting is so terrible I can't read it.
But yes, he is an Israeli, I believe, cybersecurity official who was at a conference in Las Vegas last year and was caught up in a sting designed to catch people soliciting sex from children.
He was one of a number of people arrested for this.
He was arraigned and charged.
And then two days later, he fled to Israel and did his first hearing by Zoom.
He was allowed for some reason to leave for a foreign country, having already been charged for attempted molestation of a child.
And he remains here now.
And there have been many news stories about this.
And I just wonder if you would ask the Israeli government to send to put him on a plane and send him back to face justice for attempting to molest an American child.
And by the way, I'm not alleging anything, but I mean, it's in, yes, in the Epstein files, and I don't know that I've heard the current president of Israel respond to it, but he is listed as a visitor to Peto Island.
So that's kind of a big deal.
I wonder, considering there are so many suggestions in the files, as I'm sure you know, of sexual abuse, and given that Jeffrey Epstein was a convicted sex offender, I wonder why the administration you work for would be holding millions of files, which I believe belong to the public, hidden for, quote, national security reasons.
What would those national security reasons be, do you think?
And I represent the U.S. in Israel to the Israeli government from the U.S. government.
But honestly, nobody has presented that to us.
Well, now that you know that there's no dynamic situation here, I don't know if you know that or not, but there's a lot going on in this part of the world.
I guess what I'm asking is not simply as a representative of my government or a high U.S. official, but just as like a man and a father and a Christian.
How could you resist saying, like, were you on Peto Island with Jeffrey Epstein?
Well, the fact that he was in contact repeatedly with members of the Israeli government, including the current president and the former prime minister and all kinds of Israeli intel connected people.
I'm not saying he'd work for Mossad.
I don't think we know that.
But there's no question that he had extensive contact with CIA.
Well, everyone knows that he had contact with, and by the way, not just Israeli intelligence, American intelligence, which is much more distressing for me.
I'm not Israeli.
I'm American.
I don't want my government having any contact with someone like Jeffrey Epstein.
So the shame is on the United States, as far as I'm concerned, just to be totally clear about that.
Everyone's very sensitive about the Israel connection, not at all sensitive about the U.S. connection, which I find very revealing.
We should care about what our government does first, I think.
But since you weighed in on it and said there's no evidence, I'm surprised that since that evidence has been open to the public for a month, since you've already weighed in publicly on this question, that you've made no effort to evaluate that evidence.
And I can see your love for it, and I think that's great.
But I'm talking about the U.S. government and its responsibility to ⁇ you know, there's a lot of complaint about conspiracy theories and everyone, you know, he's a hater.
Everyone's assigning motive.
But there's a way to end these conversations very quickly with facts, and I'm highly confused by...
But I'm saying if you are very involved in the details of this, and you think it's the U.S. government that's hiding and shielding somebody, then bring it up to the people that you're not going to be able to do that.
I'm a government official at the embassy in Jerusalem that has not one thing to do with the Justice Department and what they're investigating on any given day.
Okay, but now that you know there's evidence and we can settle this debate, you haven't looked at the evidence and you're not pushing for the release of the total corpus of evidence.
And I'm confused because I want to believe that your goal is to get to the truth.
And the fastest way to do that is by releasing the evidence.
And I'm asking, and I just want to say this one last time.
As the U.S. ambassador to Israel, I hope that you will make a formal request to the Israeli government to send every accused sex offender in this country back to the United States to face justice.
Then certainly, and I'll check with the Justice Department because it is a DOJ issue and it would be handled through DOJ, the U.S., to the court systems in Israel.
And so I'm going to stand back and define, because, you know, for my days as a debater in high school and college, one of the things I knew, you didn't start the debate till you defined the terms.
Christian, I think we can agree, is somebody who follows Jesus Christ, has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, believes in his death, burial, resurrection, has repented of one's sins, and have accepted him as one's savior.
So I saw this recently in an extremely telling exchange between the lieutenant governor of Texas, who I know and I've always liked, and a woman I don't know, never met, who's on the Religious Liberty Commission or something.
And she said, I'm a Catholic, but I'm not a Zionist.
And they have this ferocious exchange.
And he kept saying, and everyone on the panel seemed to keep saying, you have to believe in Israel's right to exist, which I've never kind of questioned just for the record.
But it did raise two questions I think are really important.
Well, you could say, does Jordan have a right to exist when it was transjordan and the Brits came and divided up the Middle East and they gave some land to Jordanians and they gave some land to the Saudis and they gave some land to various Middle Eastern countries and it was all carved up and the French gave Lebanon its right to exist.
I think what we're saying is that when a country has established itself and it is following international law, it has been deemed by numerous bodies that it is indigenous to its homeland as Israel is.
This is its homeland.
It goes back 3,800 years to the time of Abraham.
It's not that the Jewish people just showed up here in 1948 and said, we're going to have some land.
So but you're saying as the modern nation state with borders and a military and a knesset and just all the kind of trappings of a modern country, all of which I support, that country has every country on the planet has the same right as Israel to exist because it does exist.
Does Israel have a right to live in their indigenous ancient historical land, a land that has been affirmed throughout international organizations, a land that has direct ties to the Jewish people?
But the most important thing that is going on in our culture right now is whether or not the people that are yelling in the streets from the river to the sea, whether that that's a legitimate point of view to say that there should not be a Jewish homeland.
One of the arguments going on globally, and the United States, excuse me, has a pretty narrow view, I would say, in our media culture, what's happening around the world.
There are plenty of countries having this debate.
Stonehenge is a lot older than the first temple in Israel.
And it was built by the same people who live there now.
It's the same people.
And they are being pushed off their island and outnumbered by people from other places.
And so in Great Britain, in Ireland, which is also a country with a nation of people, a race, if you will, that is being displaced, replaced.
applies to anyone who can prove that they have some connection to the land and connection to the history and connection to international law but israel i think does have an extraordinary international law so if again no but let me finish this yes sir because here's the here's the point We're talking about Christian Zionism.
The idea that as a Christian, I believe in both the Old and the New Testament.
Why wouldn't I?
I'm a person of the book.
There are 80 million evangelical Christians in the United States.
What makes us who we are is our adherence to the scripture, our belief that the Bible, all of it, not part of it, but all of it, is the word of the living God.
So if I believe in the Old and the New Testament, I do believe that there is a very specific call to the Jewish people that started with Abraham, and he called them out of what is now modern-day Iraq, said, come where I send you.
He came.
This is the land.
Genesis 12, 3, he says, I will bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you.
In Genesis 17, he looks out of the world.
He says, look, and this is where I'm giving you the land.
I think since that time there have been people living in this land connected to that moment of history.
So there is a historical connection that's not even broken.
One of the reasons I'm so grateful President Trump and Secretary Rubio are pushing hard trying to get rid of the ICC and the ICJ is because they have become rogue organizations that are no longer really about an equal application of law and justice.
And then because of the victories that Israel had against those who tried to annihilate them, and it wasn't just that they were trying to take a little piece of their land, they tried to annihilate them.
And there is still to this day the shouts of from the river to the sea.
And Tucker, that means only one thing, not the shrinking of Israel, but the annihilation of Israel.
I think you're missing something because they're not asking to go back to take all of that, but they are asking to at least take the land that they now occupy, they now live in, they now own legitimately, and it is a safe haven for them.
You're saying that as a religious man, as a Christian, a Christian Zionist, you agree with a lot of religious communities here in Israel that the justification for this country is theological.
It's a contract between God and his people.
And I'm telling you that that contract includes a tract of land that is much larger than the current nation state.
I'm trying to understand the implications of your theology for geopolitics because you're saying that the present government of Israel has a moral right to take over what are now other people's countries.
I told myself when I said a prayer that I would not get annoyed, but as someone who is, you know, the father of daughters, when I see child molesters hiding in Israel and escaping American justice, I think I have a right to safety in my country too.
So you can understand that I think most people feel they have a right to safety.
I do think Israel has a right to safety, and I hope that for them.
And I'm sincere, but I'm an American, and I have a right to safety in my country too.
I think that there is an understanding that the people of Israel today.
Now, if they end up getting attacked by all these places and they win that war and they take that land, then okay, that's a whole nother, whole nother discussion.
But you and I started out when we started talking about something simple, Christian Zionism.
But it turns out it's not simple because I don't, the core of Christian Zionism, you said, and I'm quoting you, is the understanding, the belief, the theological understanding that Jews have a moral and legal, we went through the legal, moral deriving from the biblical.
the promises in our Bible, which we share with the Jewish people, the first part of the Old Testament, that it derives from God's promise to the Jews.
And so I have two questions.
What are the borders of that?
And who are those people in 2026?
And you're not the first person I've asked, but you're the most reasonable, most gentle, most theologically informed person.
So I'm really hoping for an answer.
The first question was the borders.
I can't get an answer.
Those borders are.
So I'm going to give up.
But the second question is every bit as pressing, which is who are the people?
Who are the modern, yes, who are the descendants?
So we know, and I believe, and I agree with you as a Christian, that God promised this land from modern-day Iraq to modern-day Egypt to this people, the Jews, to Abram's, actually not to Abram's descendants, as it says in Genesis 15.
Who are his descendants now, and how do we know who they are?
Well, if you take the genealogies that come not only from the Old, but the New Testament, you see that there is a historical connection through the entirety of the Old and the New Testament that details the Jewish connection to this land.
If they speak the same language, if they worship the same God, if they follow the same Bible, if they follow the same cultures and traditions, and they always pray next year in Jerusalem, and they pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and they pray facing toward Jerusalem...
does that not give you a little bit of a clue as to who they are?
I think it's wonderful as someone who loves language.
Netanyahu's parents did not speak Hebrew.
They didn't live in this region.
Netanyahu, the founders of this country were mostly secular.
Some of them were avowed atheists.
They were not praying for the peace of Jerusalem.
They weren't praying at all because they didn't believe in God.
There's no genealogy linking their families to the people of this land 3,000 years ago.
They're none.
So how do we know, since they didn't share a language, they didn't share a religion, they had no religion whatsoever, how do we know that they had a right to come here from Eastern Europe?
are about twice as many christians but they live in the enclave they are not native qataris okay we're we're mixing so many different categories here i mean I'm just saying I get things wrong all the time.
You've just gotten something wrong.
And I think it's important to acknowledge it.
There are many more Christians in Qatar than there are in Israel.
And you said it's a mixture of religion and ethnicity, because as I noted, and you agree, many of the founders, maybe the majority of the founders of modern Israel, did not believe in God at all.
So they were not religious Jews.
They weren't religious at all.
They were atheists.
They said they were atheists.
I believe them.
So that suggests it's ethnic.
But it's also true, as you well know, because there's a famous court case about this, that ethnic Jews who convert to Christianity do not have the right of return.
That was settled by the Israeli Supreme Court.
I'm very confused.
So that would suggest it's not ethnicity because you invalidate your Jewishness by converting to Christianity.
Do you have a right to come and say, I am an ethnic Jew, even though I practice Christianity, therefore I have every bit as much right to move into a settlement in the West Bank or into East Jerusalem or anywhere I want, Galilee, anywhere, because I am returning to the land of my forefathers.
I have a legal right in the state of Israel, even though I've converted to Christianity.
Well, it really matters because you're saying, in fact, people in the United States are being called anti-Semites, a lot of them, including me, because they somehow don't believe that Israel has a right to this land.
It would prove who Abram's descendants are and who has a right to live here and who doesn't, according to the theology that you yourself just explained.
And so I'm very confused as to why we don't do that.
If you believe the theology that you've just explained to me.
You told me moments ago, trying to keep track, that it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in God or whether or not you practice Torah Judaism or Rabbinic Judaism, which is something else that I don't even know if we should, I don't even know what that means.
But it doesn't matter whether you're, quote, a religious Jew or not.
What matters is that you are part of the Jewish people to whom God gave this land that extends from the Nile to the Euphrates.
And so if you believe that, wouldn't you want to know with a burning passion who those people are?
And because of science, we can now know who those people are.
By your standards, they can't live here because you've just told that they have a right to live here because God gave them the land because they're the descendants of Abram.
But if they're the spiritual descendants of Abraham and they've now decided that they're converting to Judaism, then do they have a right to live in Israel?
it's partly genetic but it doesn't have to be and so that you can see why i think i was very clear that being jewish is an identification either through blood or through faith that you're jewish it may be that you're a blood jew but you don't necessarily practice judaism just like there are people who say they're christian but they don't do a thing to demonstrate what christian
There are a lot of bad Christians, including me some of the time, a lot of the time, but I don't have a right to real estate on the basis of my claim of Christianity.
You don't have a right to real estate if you're talking about a specific parcel.
But if you're talking about a land, I think what we're talking about is all I'm saying.
And there was a designation to the family of nations of the world that there would be a Jewish homeland.
Let's get to that point because I think you've taken us on several trails here, and I'm not sure we can follow them all.
But is there a reason that the Jewish people that represent, and I want to get back to this because you didn't let me finish a while ago, they represent 0.2% of the world's population.
In the entirety of the world, there are about 16 million Jews total, and 8 million of them live here.
The rest live mostly in New York or South Florida and a few other places.
And the reason it's meaningful is because there are a lot of people in the territory that Israel controls today, particularly in the West Bank, who, through genetic testing, we can know their families have been here for thousands of years.
We don't know whether they practiced Judaism, whether they were Samaritans, pre-Islam.
We don't know that.
A lot of them we know have been Christians for 2,000 years.
They have less of a right to the land than someone whose ancestors, the only thing we know about them is they lived in Latvia or Poland.
Is there any European peoples that possesses the same right to their land that the Jews, including people whose ancestors lived in Eastern Europe, possess here?
The Britons, we know, the British people, the Scandinavian people, the Irish people, their ancestors have been there for thousands of years.
Now that I'm raising the question, and you've spent a lot of time thinking about the right of the Jewish people to their homeland, do the Irish have the same right to a homeland?
And if they can't defend it, allowing me to tell you that I think that what is very, very special here is that there is a biblical as well as an ethnic and a historical.
So you can take any one, but if you add them all together, biblical, historical, and ethnic, you have a very strong case that the Jewish people are living in a land that is indigenous to them, that has been their historic homeland for 3,800 years.
Yeah, and a lot of times, you know why they got killed?
Because Hamas would gather up the children and put them in the targets.
Do you know what Israel does?
They send page messages and they send texts to every cell phone in Gaza and they say, we're going to hit this particular target.
They drop leaflets and they announce where they're going to hit.
Nobody does that.
The U.S. doesn't do that.
Israel does that in order to prevent.
Let me finish this.
They do this in order to prevent civilian casualties.
What Hamas does, they say, oh, this is the target.
And by gunpoint, they push people into those various places.
And then when people get killed, they say, look, Israel just slaughtered these people, even though it was Hamas who moved them into harm's way, knowing that it was going to put them in a place of danger and death and destruction.
And as an American, permit me a moment of outrage.
Because I said many civilians have been killed.
And you said, right in the middle of your elaborate defense of the IDF's killing of civilians, including children, you said they do a better job than the United States does.
may be right and i'm um i'm just telling you that they but then let me ask you on that question i've you know i i That's such a politically loaded question.
And I think most Christians would say all of those things were atrocities because innocents were killed in large numbers, and we don't believe in that.
No, but I'm telling you that when someone commits the acts of atrocity and then they hold hostages, if these were your children being held hostage in Gaza, what would you do to get them out?
If he's holding a gun and he's pointing it at someone who's trying to save a hostage, and the only way to save that hostage, I'm telling you, war is a horrible thing.
I say there are people who die that it's unfortunate.
But I'm saying that you are not giving Israel credit for having done everything they possibly could to a level that, quite frankly, in urban warfare, there has never been a warning.
No, I simply gave you the illustration, and I helped you understand that Israel goes to links that no other country, including ours, goes to, in the middle of an urban war, and yet Israel ended up with fewer civilian deaths in an urban war than any urban war of record.
But if you took the numbers that they reported, which is like 50,000, 24,000 or 25,000 of those were actual warriors, how many civilians, if you take those numbers, range from 120 to 78, those ones I just read, I don't know if that's real.
From the conversations that I've had with the people who fought there.
And I don't have the exact numbers for you.
But what I'm trying to help you to understand, and I don't think you're willing to go there, is that there was no desire to kill people indiscriminately in Gaza.
I don't think there was any desire to kill people indiscriminately in Iraq, Afghanistan.
Let me just say, I think, and I know a bunch of people who serve in the IDF, and I don't believe your average IDF soldier wants to kill innocents.
I just want to be really clear about that.
I don't think most soldiers want to do that.
I think a lot of them in our country, in Israel, wind up doing that because that's what war is about, and it really hurts them.
I know people who've done it personally really well, and it like wrecks their lives.
But I don't think your average soldier wants that in this country or any other.
The leadership is a different question.
And I want to refer you very specifically to a number of speeches the prime minister, your friend Benjamin Netanyahu gave in the aftermath of October 7th, including one in November of that year, when he referred to Amalek.
Now, Amalek is a reference, a biblical reference.
So, of course, you'll be very familiar with that.
The Amalekites were a tribe described throughout the Bible, particularly in 1 Samuel, that obstructed the Jews as they fled Egypt.
And God tells Samuel to give the instructions to Saul to kill the Amalekites.
And he says, and I'm sure you remember this, this is in 1 Samuel 15.
Of course, I'm sure, I know you know it.
He says, kill the men, kill the women, kill the children, kill the infants, kill the donkeys, kill the camels, kill everything.
And Saul spares the king and he spares the animals.
And for that, he is punished by God.
That is genocide.
God is calling for genocide of the Amalekites, of Amalek.
And the prime minister of Israel, at least once, I believe on other occasions, described the Palestinians in Gaza as Amalek.
I think what he was saying was that we're not going to let anything keep us from getting our hostages back, their sons and their daughters who are being brutalized, raped, tortured, starved, beaten.
I'm asking why, of all the references in the Bible, and there are many to justice and there are many to reconciliation, that is a reference to genocide, as you know, killing every man, woman, child, and infant, I'm quoting, and their animals, wiping them from the earth.
And when they don't do that, they're punished.
When you say that at the outset of a war and then you wind up with massive civilian casualties, maybe not as big as they were in Iraq, then I have to ask you, what is that?
And is that kind of thinking consistent with Western values and with Christianity?
Do we as Christians believe it's okay to kill people's children?
It was a very delicate situation to get him out because if Hamas had found out that he was still alive, they would have killed him in order to validate Aguilar's story.
On a Sunday afternoon, I can remember when there was widespread reports on BBC, CNN, and the New York Times, and they said that 27 people were killed at a feeding site.
We had video extensively over that site.
Not one single person, not only were they not shot, nobody was shot at.
There was not one bit of violence that happened at that feeding site.
got killed there's a way some of those people got killed because Hamas were trying to keep them from getting to the aid distribution sites because Hamas was controlling the food Hamas made $500 million selling the food that was supposed to be given away for free.
And what they were trying to do is to keep people from going to the sites where they were getting food for free.
When we set GHF up, Hamas was a fighter.
The first thing that happened, I know, but I'm telling you, the first thing that people said was, wow, this is the first time we've had food that we got for free.
But if there was no connect, I've never seen, I'm open to anything, but I've never seen any connection between the government of Saddam Hussein, the secular Baathist government of Saddam Hussein and the terror attacks of 9-11.
Well, Benjamin Netanyahu, now prime minister, of course, exerted lots of pressure openly on the U.S. government to take out to regime change the Saddam government.
Look, I think, and I don't know, of course, the answer to every question, including this one, but I think the President Trump really doesn't like nuclear proliferation, and I don't think he wants Iran to have a bomb.
I don't want anyone to have a bomb, including Israel.
I don't know why we're okay with Israel having nuclear weapons.
I'm not.
I'm not okay with Pakistan having them.
I'm not okay with Saudi having them.
Israel's nuclear weapons were created, of course, with nuclear materials stolen from the United States, from a nuclear plant in Pennsylvania, as I know you know.
I'm opposed to all of it.
I don't like nuclear weapons.
It's mass murder, as far as I'm concerned.
So, no, I don't want Iran to have a bomb, obviously.
Our country is not thriving, and we're spending tens and tens and tens of billions of dollars over time defending Israel and helping it prosecute all the time.
And there are thousands and thousands of American jobs, and there are billions and billions of dollars of expenditures that Israel makes in the U.S. and buys the things that we do.
A lot less than it would to bury a lot of Americans if they ever got a long-range ballistic missile.
A lot less.
Bucker, I want you to understand that when Iran has told us for 47 years they're going to kill us, do you think they would do it if they had the capacity militarily?
Especially now, all these states are basically in a state of insurrection against the federal government.
They're not enforcing the most basic law of the land, which is immigration.
And thank goodness President Trump is pushing back and he's speaking to force if all of a sudden compliance markets just tanked and gas tripled or whatever and you had a severe recession or something worse.
That's a massive cost.
And I don't see anybody factoring in that possibility.
Iran has said it will do it.
You've said 10 times they're evil.
Okay, I believe you.
Then why wouldn't they take out the Qatari gas fields they share with Qatar or refining petrochemicals extraction in any of the Gulf countries?
I mean, there's a genocide going on in all kinds of different countries.
There's a lot that's sad and broken about the world.
We know that as Christians, Satan rules the world.
But our job as members of a nation state is to look after our community, our families, right?
So I don't think any of the concerns that you've just raised, which I think are all real, I'm not disputing them at all, are even in like the top 100 for Americans.
Why would the US government be spending this much time and money worrying about things that are not on the list of Americans' concerns?
Do we have self-government?
Does it matter what Americans actually think or it doesn't matter?
The question is, when people think that they're not going to be able to do that, 47 years, well, but I don't know that Saddam ever said he was going to take down America.
But the Iranian regime has said for 47 years they are.
If they had the capacity of a long-range ballistic missile and nuclear capability, do you think they'd light that puppy up and send it to us?
Okay, I guess what I'm saying is that most Americans, I've never met an American who thinks, other than like the people who have ideological reasons to pretend they think it, that the imminent threat to America is anything having to do with Iran.
The imminent threats to America include like bankruptcy from too much debt, your son ODing on fentanyl, your neighborhood completely changing because unlike Israel, Americans don't have a right to their country.
It can just be completely changed by their legislature.
New people can show up from foreign countries and not speak your language, and there's nothing you can do about it because you don't have a right because you're not BB.
And they all presided over my country's total transformation from a nice, clean, affluent, orderly society into like pretty kind of third world, actually.
That's not protecting us.
That's behaving with total contempt for my country.
I know, but you're making it sound like that he is being pulled into something that he really doesn't want to do or pulled into something because he's persuaded.
I was in the meeting last week.
I was in the meetings last summer.
I can assure you, President Trump is not being led into something at all by Prime Minister Netanyahu.
To be clear, I'm neither saying that nor implying it.
What I am stating out loud is true, and that's that Prime Minister Netanyahu, Bibi Netanyahu, has way more influence over Americans' foreign policy than Americans do.
And we know this because he wants a war with Iran.
The overwhelming majority of Americans don't want a war with Iran, and we're very likely to get a war with Iran.
I don't have their credentials, but I know that there were quite a few that were actually Hamas fighters that protected Hamas.
Ask the hostages.
The hostages came back and they started telling about the number of people that were doctors in hospitals that held him hostage in their homes or the number of people who were pretending to be journalists who were actually holding them hostage.
I'm just telling you that there's a lot more to what.
Before Israel put the green line up, and before they took great care to put checkpoints in place, there were over a thousand suicide bombers in one year.
So my question remains, and I'm a little bit frustrated at this point because I'm not defending Hamas.
I hate suicide bombing.
I hate suicide.
I hate violence.
I hate the killing of children, period.
Why can't a Christian who was born there, whose family's been there for 2,000 years, following Jesus for 2,000 years, drive, because it's really close to the church of the Holy Sepulchre?
He poses no threat.
And why can't the United States government advocate for him to do that?
I sit down with the vice president and the prime minister of the Palestinian Authority.
We try to work ways to make things better.
But the reason that sometimes it's not just an absolute free passage, I'll tell you why, because there are too many incidences of terrorist acts, and Israel is not going to allow themselves to be able to do that.
Look, I'm not trying to defend, but I'm saying to you that if the curriculum doesn't get changed, if the pay for slay doesn't get changed, you have a culture.
There are people who think that that would be a much better.
I think it very well could be.
And if you ask certain people living in the PA under their very corrupt government, where 91% of the people think the government is hopelessly corrupt, that's what the numbers are, they would tell you that they would be better off than the Israelis were the governing authority.
And actually, I should, to be fair, there is, and I just learned this, a Jewish Israeli group that keeps track of Christians being spit on in Jerusalem because they're offended by it.
And God bless them for keeping track and for being offended by it.
But there are an awful lot of examples of that.
And my question to you, you're against it, of course.
I mean, I don't think anybody would ever spit on another person, even if it was, you know, I don't care what a person's religion is or what a person's nationality is.
I'm not saying you'd get applause or that people would.
Right, that's fine.
But I'm saying there are people that are- There's no law against that, though.
Not that I'm aware of.
The only laws that I know of, you can't proselytize someone under the age of 18, and you cannot offer people things of value in order to cause them to listen to your presentation.
For example, I can't say, hey, for $10, would you let me give you this gospel track and scream at you?
The one place that's an exception is the Emiratis, and I love those folks because they are so progressive and they're doing so many things to change the template of things.
They have an Abraham house that is a combination synagogue, church, and mosque.
That's pretty amazing, isn't it?
That they have the same building and they use it for all three of the major religions of the world.
And I think that's incredible.
But they're really trying to do things that are beyond what anyone else in the region.
They change their textbooks.
They teach that Israel is not a nation they should hate or seek to annihilate.