All Episodes
Dec. 29, 2025 - The Tucker Carlson Show
49:00
The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

Why’s it suddenly so expensive to take your dog to the vet? Here’s a hint: private equity. Joe Spector on the solution. Paid partnership with: Masa Chips: Get 25% off with code TUCKER at https://masachips.com/tucker Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Last Country Supply: Real prep starts with the basics. Here’s what we keep stocked: https://lastcountrysupply.com #TuckerCarlson #JoeSpector #dog #pet #veterinarian #vet #pets #pethealth #animals #privateequity #scam #FBI #news #podcast #politics Chapters: 0:00 Why Is Veterinary Care So Expensive? 2:55 The Private Equity Firms Swallowing Small Businesses 10:15 Why Are Veterinarians So Afraid of the FBI? 14:53 Why Is There an Effort to Ban Telemedicine? 20:55 How Does Dutch's Service Work? 23:14 The AVMA Cartel Pushing Lobbying Politicians 27:46 The Mass Veterinarian Shortage 33:39 Why Spector Is So Dedicated to Pets’ Health 41:37 The AVMA Propaganda Lying to You About Your Pet

Participants
Main
j
joe spector
31:31
t
tucker carlson
dailycaller 16:59
Appearances
Clips
c
christopher caldwell
00:01
|

Speaker Time Text
tucker carlson
Joe, thank you for doing this.
I don't think I've ever, probably have, I don't remember.
I don't think I've ever interviewed an advertiser.
And so I just want to be clear about why I'm doing this interview.
So I called you several months ago to ask you if you want to advertise on our show because you have a pet-related company.
I love dogs.
I've got a dog right there.
And we had this conversation that was like so unbelievably interesting.
So interesting that I haven't stopped thinking about it.
So that's, I just want to be fully transparent about why I asked you to come.
christopher caldwell
Thank you for doing it.
tucker carlson
So here's my real question.
Veterinary care, anyone who owns a dog or cat knows a lot about it.
There's no backstop.
There's no health insurance, whatever.
And you'll pay anything because it's right.
It's a member of your family.
And it's getting really, really expensive.
So can you just give us the overview?
Why is it so expensive to say bring your dog in for his shots?
Like, how does this system work?
joe spector
Yep.
Just to put a pin on that, veterinary care has grown 2x the rate of inflation.
So we talk about inflation.
tucker carlson
The cost of?
unidentified
Yeah.
joe spector
So the inflation is already high.
Veterinary inflation is double.
It's like 2x.
That's how crazy it is.
So something that was $50 is literally $100 a year later.
tucker carlson
Why?
joe spector
There's a number of factors.
One, there's been a lot of private equity consolidation in this space.
tucker carlson
I could have picked that.
joe spector
Follow the money.
So, you know, that just means less supply and the demand's only growing.
That's one big factor.
The other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance.
tucker carlson
Right.
joe spector
Veterinarians, and you'll read this in trade magazines, they build their business on production, which is basically selling you more stuff.
tucker carlson
Yes.
joe spector
So a third of their revenue is dependent on you getting a blood exam, getting x-ray, et cetera.
And I think to be clear, like the rank and file veterinarians are doing this only because they love pets.
I think what's happening is it's the few business owners and ultimately, like I said, private equity that are simply raising prices for something that you're going to pay for no matter what.
Yes.
And it's scaring people.
We, so at Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they haven't been to a vet in three years or more.
tucker carlson
Oh, I bet.
joe spector
People are scared that the moment they enter a vet's office, they have a $500 bill or more.
tucker carlson
Literally.
So let's just back up and go through these one by one.
So the first is private equity.
So private equity buys the model in general, buys small businesses, independent businesses, links them together for efficiencies, for cost savings, right?
This is the idea.
This is what they do.
So how many, do you have any sense of how many vets are owned by private equity now?
joe spector
I think it's like almost, it's like a third to a half, probably.
tucker carlson
Wow.
unidentified
Okay.
tucker carlson
So they've been scooping them up.
joe spector
Oh, massively.
In fact, this, there's been, there's like two major companies that are doing it that there was a lawsuit that they're creating a monopoly that's that was going around.
tucker carlson
So they'll go to owners of Brook and Moore, mom and pop.
Yeah, mom and pops.
And they'll just, they'll, and they're doing this with dentists as well and HBAC and like basically every small business in America and and they'll buy just a whole bunch of them.
joe spector
Exactly.
Yeah.
tucker carlson
And then become like regional.
joe spector
Yep.
And then they'll just raise the prices.
tucker carlson
Does the care get better?
joe spector
No.
The care gets worse because you're no longer bringing the, they're doing nothing.
I don't want to like say nothing, but there's really no like modernization of equipment or faster care.
It's the same thing.
They just literally raise the price.
tucker carlson
Huh.
joe spector
And then when it sucks, it's like super unfair.
tucker carlson
No, well, I mean, I, you know, I'm willing to believe there are examples of private equity doing what it says it does, which is, you know, to come in and make the business better, better for its customers, better for its owners, better for its employees.
I've never seen that.
No, it's ever in any sector, but I believe there must be some time where that happened.
joe spector
My old veterinarian, I switched to, and I asked for my, which is owned by private equity, and I asked for my medical records.
It was 50 pages of PDF with scribble notes.
I mean, there's no way that there's anything that you could ever find what's there.
So I don't believe, I've not seen any sort of better care for pets as a result at all.
tucker carlson
Yeah.
But greater returns for the investors in private for the totally.
So, okay, so how do they, can you be specific about how they raise the prices?
You suggested there's an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and shots.
joe spector
Annual exams, but they'll sell you more stuff too.
So they'll say, you know what, your dog needs teeth cleaning.
And so we need to put him under anesthesia.
And that's going to be like a $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning, which $5,000?
unidentified
Yes.
tucker carlson
I've had a lot of dogs, dozens and dozens of dogs.
I've got five at my house right now.
And I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned.
joe spector
Yeah, exactly.
tucker carlson
And my dogs live a long time.
joe spector
Exactly.
Exactly.
And the thing is, you're there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what's best for your pet.
But what happens is they have a list of all the services they want to sell to you.
And that's going to be one of them.
And you feel horrible that you even have to think about the decision.
Of course.
But it's like, that's a lot of money.
Not, I mean, most people don't have $5,000 lying around the house.
tucker carlson
Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing.
I mean, dogs die.
People die under anesthesia.
You're suspending life in a living thing.
joe spector
Totally.
Yeah.
So I think what happens is it's the list of services that they'll try to sell you and make you feel horrible that you don't care about your dog if you don't buy from this menu.
tucker carlson
There's so much emotional leverage.
People are so intense about their animals.
unidentified
Yes.
tucker carlson
Not in my house.
We have, you know, critical distance.
No, but you know, you do anything.
You'd sell your car.
I mean, I would.
And so they have a lot of power when they're upselling.
joe spector
Yes, totally.
tucker carlson
Do you, it seems like the incentives would produce like actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat is getting treatments they don't need and that might be counterproductive.
joe spector
Well, I think what happens is people just stop going to the vet at all.
That, I mean, that's what we've seen is that there's just a whole, there's tens of millions of dogs that never go to the veterinarian.
At Dutch, 50% don't go to the vet, haven't been to the vet in years.
And it's because they don't want to, they don't want to feel bad for not buying extra services for their dog.
tucker carlson
That's amazing.
What about all the shots?
There are a lot of shots and they're very expensive.
joe spector
Definitely there's vaccines, but even vaccines, like you should, I mean, as we have at Dutch, try to kind of, so telemedicine can do vaccines, but there's definitely lower cost clinics that will do vaccines for $50, whereas in person, it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same thing.
tucker carlson
For a shot?
Yes.
Why would it cost $200 for a shot?
joe spector
Well, they'll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I have to pay for stat.
I mean, they'll say there's like all this upkeep that the shot includes.
But it's baloney.
That goes back to private equity raising prices and knowing that people, there's some people who will still pay for it.
tucker carlson
So the profile of the vets that I've dealt with in the past 20 years really, really changed.
It's a female industry now.
joe spector
Yes.
tucker carlson
Which I think is good, just to be honest.
I feel like they're really a lot of dog lovers.
Not all you get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals.
unidentified
Yes.
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And so what do they think of all of this?
joe spector
So what's interesting is that when it comes to just Dutch and telemedicine, we get hundreds of applications from people who want to do telemedicine.
And actually to this point that it's female, telemedicine allows them to have a work from home, flexible schedule, which they love.
The main industry association, the AVMA, has basically made these vets feel that if they do telemedicine, the FBI will show up at their house.
unidentified
What?
joe spector
It has scared them to death from doing telemedicine to death.
And it's because it's, again, it's comprised of these self-serving, financially interested individuals who run the organization.
But they have completely scared veterinarians from doing telemedicine whatsoever.
tucker carlson
Why would the FBI show up at a vet's house?
joe spector
What they'll say, and again, like, I think this is why I want your listeners to know this.
It's just so insane.
They will say that the federal law requires, it requires you to have a physical exam no matter what.
Like no matter if it's an opinion, it's a rash, it's a quick question.
They'll say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't.
In every conference, in every newsletter, they'll say, oh well, we asked the FDA and they said that you need a physical exam, so if you violate this you might go to jail.
That's what they'll say at every conference for years now.
And they'll vilify me and Dutch and they'll say, this guy is gonna hurt your dog if there's telemedicine.
Millions of dogs will die is the headline.
tucker carlson
I'm sorry to laugh.
I mean that's like obviously not true emotional blackmail.
joe spector
Yeah, so one of the main.
tucker carlson
So buy this book or we'll shoot this dog.
I mean it really yeah, millions of dogs will die.
They really say that.
joe spector
Yeah, well again.
So this is what they'll say at a conference.
What i've been doing now is i've been working with the Aspca and a huge coalition of shelter um organizations, because they're the ones that get the brunt of it, because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can't care for them, because they can't afford veterinarian care, because they can't afford veterinary care.
Yes, come on, i'm telling you, people abandon their dog.
Yes oh, man it.
I know it gives me chills, it sucks yeah, um.
So the only way this can change is at the state level, and we've been working so.
In Florida it took us four legislative sessions to allow telemedicine and and all it does is all the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment to make a decision.
tucker carlson
But may I just ask a foundational question, why is the state involved in what kind of medical care you give your dog?
joe spector
Just because health care is regulated at the state level, this is veterinary care, and that I mean and then?
tucker carlson
But you have dominion over your dog.
I mean right, it's so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over your dog, who sleeps in your bed was your dog than you do.
Like what is that that?
joe spector
That's the system we live in.
But actually, I will tell you this, most legislators, once we tell them that this is a law that you need to help us with, they're most of them are completely on board.
They don't.
They're like, we have human health care and this is I like.
A lot of them will say, I didn't even know this was an.
Like you said, I didn't even know this was an issue.
This is dumb.
So where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state uh, lobby groups who have hundreds of millions of dollars in annual budgets.
If they've lined a politician's pocket, then that's where we will have trouble in those states taking money for the veterinary lobby.
tucker carlson
Yeah, there are a lot of dark lobbies.
We only pay attention to a couple of them, but there are so many, yeah.
So can you just quickly Quickly, tell me how that works?
So the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association.
joe spector
Yeah, Medical Association.
tucker carlson
Medical Association.
And why do they have an interest in preventing telehealth for animals?
joe spector
There's one reason that they'll say, and then there's one reason that they'll say behind closed doors.
So what they'll say in public is that they'll say telemedicine is going to is going to harm dogs, lead to millions of dogs dying.
But what they'll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it's purely financial.
They think that it's an either or choice that if you have telemedicine, people will no longer go to the vet and their brick and mortar business is going to die.
That's not true.
tucker carlson
Oh, so they're just preserving the monopoly.
joe spector
Yeah, they're preserving the monopoly.
tucker carlson
It's just like always.
Most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies.
joe spector
Yes, exactly.
tucker carlson
That's true in tech.
It's true in manufacturing.
It's true in the nicotine business.
It's true in veterinary care.
Wow.
I should have known that.
Duh.
Oh, right.
Millions of dogs will die.
joe spector
Like, who has died?
No one.
tucker carlson
Well, so if people aren't even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's too expensive, how exactly?
joe spector
Exactly.
Exactly.
Dogs are getting zero care.
And you will have these people say that they will prefer that, then they'll prefer the status quo.
The industry association will say they'll prefer the status quo, then allow telemedicine.
And by the way, it's not an either or choice.
It's not like, oh, I have a video call and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet.
You know, like we have, again, human health care, we still go to our brick and mortar annual checkup, whatever.
And then if we have an issue at night, we don't have to go to the corner.
tucker carlson
But if you've got porcupine quills in your dog's throat or, you know, cuts his leg on barbed wire, you have to go to a surgeon.
joe spector
That's right.
But if he has a rash and you just want to know, like, is it like, what is this?
Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show, again, the dog's in the comfort of their home and you use your phone and show a video of their paw?
tucker carlson
Right.
joe spector
Like, why do you have to drag that animal?
tucker carlson
Well, and that's right.
And for example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time, a lot.
And I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they're not.
And every year I have to take the quills out, which takes like four hours.
But I do it myself because, well, because I know how, but also because my dogs don't like to go to the vet at all.
And it smells like death and they can smell it.
joe spector
Yep, mine do too.
tucker carlson
Dogs are euthanized there.
They know that.
And so we do everything we can to prevent physical visits because the dogs are panicked.
And I think most people with dogs know this.
joe spector
Yes.
tucker carlson
And I think cats feel the same way.
joe spector
Cats are even worse.
tucker carlson
Yes.
joe spector
Because to corral a cat.
tucker carlson
Difficult.
So anything as someone, if you love animals, you want to, you want care for them, of course, but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can.
joe spector
Yep.
They're in the comfort of their home.
Exactly.
One of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases.
And that's even more so why they should be treated from home because the dog is in their natural environment.
tucker carlson
Exactly.
joe spector
You're only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don't like.
And then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, telemedicine is perfect for that because you can have these regular conversations and for a fraction of the price.
Just to give you context, by the way, so Dutch, it's less than $100 for a year of care.
If you went every month, you'd pay $100.
You'd pay like over $1,000 to treat your dog.
And oftentimes when you have anxiety, you kind of need to have those regular check-ins.
And we had a story recently of this guy who had an aggressive dog.
He's been on Dutch for two years.
And the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he has two buddies.
Like his life has changed.
tucker carlson
Yes.
joe spector
And there's no way in the world this owner could have had the money or the time if Dutch wasn't around to change this dog's life.
tucker carlson
Amazing.
Yeah.
And if you have a dog who bites, I've had a few.
It's very disruptive.
And, you know, the dog can get killed, by the way.
You know, dogs like that either get put down by the state or can be killed in a fight.
Whatever.
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So how does it work exactly?
I don't understand the term.
So it's a hundred bucks.
Tell me how the alternative.
joe spector
So with Dutch, you go to Dutch.com, you sign up.
It's a membership service.
It's $100 for a year of care.
So for a year, you can call a vet for up to five pets.
And we have vets available same day.
So, you know, most of the appointments, by the way, are happening at night.
Even if you have a vet, the vet's closed.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe spector
And so you have a video call.
Most calls happen on people's phones.
You talk to a local vet in your state and they'll, you know, you're talking to a professional.
And so they'll diagnose.
tucker carlson
So you're talking to a veterinarian.
joe spector
Yeah, you'll always talk to a veterinarian, a human being.
And 90% of the time, and we've been doing this now for five years, 90% of the time, they're able to address the issue over video.
tucker carlson
Amazing.
And so does that include vaccines or what does that include?
joe spector
It includes the cost.
So vaccines you have to do in person and we'll recommend a local clinic if that's what you need.
But if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you.
You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice.
We don't care.
But it includes kind of any of the follow-up messages, chats with a vet.
So you don't feel like you're nickel and dimed if I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later.
The other thing that's cool about digital first is that everything is documented.
So we know automatically when we should follow up for each condition, or we know that a veterinary needs to respond.
Like we have goals, a veterinary needs to respond within a matter of hours back to the patient if there's a message during the business day.
So we can also like really monitor our quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good experience.
tucker carlson
Is this nationwide?
joe spector
It's nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don't allow telemedicine.
tucker carlson
For animals.
joe spector
For animals, yeah.
tucker carlson
Really?
joe spector
Yep.
tucker carlson
Because of lobbying by law.
joe spector
Exactly.
So that's why.
tucker carlson
Any big states?
joe spector
Any of the big states.
Some of the biggest ones, like Texas, which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas does not.
And we actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed by the ADMA.
And it's all because of money.
tucker carlson
That's wild.
joe spector
Yep.
tucker carlson
So it's, you are not allowed to do.
So is there like an underground telehealth?
Like, why don't you just ignore the law and do it anyway?
Sorry, I should have.
joe spector
Well, so there's actually in Texas, there's a court case that is now at the Supreme Court where the veterinarians said, well, it's freedom of speech.
tucker carlson
Yeah.
joe spector
I'm just like telling people like how their pets, you know, this is my freedom of speech.
So the Fifth Circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but the Attorney General has filed this as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently.
tucker carlson
Seriously?
joe spector
Yep.
What's his name?
Craig?
I forget his name.
tucker carlson
That's so interesting.
joe spector
He's running for Senate.
tucker carlson
So right now, it is illegal for anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get health care on the phone.
joe spector
Yep.
According to them, now there's always, so there's two paths in Texas.
There's any state allows emergency, has an emergency provision if it's a life or death situation.
And then in Texas, again, there's this Fifth Circuit decision that's currently, so there's like, there's sort of this competing situation in Texas where on the one hand, the Fifth Circuit says telemedicine is allowed, but the state regulations still say that it's not allowed.
tucker carlson
I'm pretty sure I could just call up and get like very serious drugs prescribed through telehealth as an adult.
Like very fully addictive benzodiazepines, for example, you can die from going off them.
I mean, this is like way more, way more addictive than heroin.
You can't die going off heroin.
You can die going off Xanax.
joe spector
It's all about the money.
tucker carlson
But that's totally fine to get that from telehealth.
unidentified
Yes.
tucker carlson
Or amphetamines, no problem.
It's like Tijuana.
You know, you get whatever you want now, but your dog can't get treatment.
Yeah.
joe spector
That's not, that's, it's definitely unfair.
tucker carlson
Well, it's deranged.
Is that changing?
Are you making progress?
joe spector
We're making good progress.
So we've changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states.
And this upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12 different states.
But definitely there's a lot of states.
I'm sure your listeners live in a lot of those states.
And one of the things we did is we launched this website called savepuppies.com.
And if you go to savepuppies.com.
tucker carlson
I mean, if they're saying millions of dogs will die, you know, you're fighting back with safepuppies.com.
That wasn't taken.
joe spector
I know, right?
Yeah, it wasn't taken.
And so, you know, you can go there and send a letter to your local legislator.
That's the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level because we don't have the crazy budget that these trade groups have.
tucker carlson
Can I ask you, what does the AVMA think of private equity scooping up all the independent businesses?
joe spector
I think they're associated with it.
tucker carlson
They've got no problem with that.
joe spector
I don't think so.
tucker carlson
Prices going up, care declining.
They're totally fine with that.
But they're against options.
joe spector
So I think, again, there's two things, what they'll say publicly versus what happens behind closed doors.
And I've read, I mean, it's like we live in two different worlds because what they'll say is, like, for example, one reason prices are going up is there's also massive vet shortages because the veterinary profession has one of the biggest dropout rates of anyone.
And they'll say, and this is just, it's, this is just factually true if you follow BLS, Bureau of Labor Statistics, but they'll say there's no shortage.
Or you'll say, you know, prices are going up and there's like data that shows that they'll say, no, prices are not going up.
So a lot of times when you talk to them, the surveys they put out make are completely nonsensical.
tucker carlson
Right.
And there's this bottleneck in veterinary school.
joe spector
Totally.
So that's another thing.
The AVMA could, it's really weird in this industry.
And I think I just, again, I'm here because like you shine a light on things.
And I think a lot of people.
tucker carlson
Well, I care about this topic because I think the relationship between people and animals is just so essential.
joe spector
I know.
It sucks what they're doing.
So the AVMA controls accreditation for veterinary colleges.
Okay.
Like this happens in no other, like law schools don't have a trade association decide like who gets to have a law school.
Yeah.
In this industry, the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school and they have chokehold that completely.
tucker carlson
So private equity decides whether you get to be a vet or not.
I mean, in effect, if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry, that's bonkers.
Why?
joe spector
I mean, it goes back to money.
It goes back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and because people are willing to pay more for it.
tucker carlson
So they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every year.
joe spector
It's like, I hate to draw that line, but I think that's what.
tucker carlson
Well, if it's about money, then it's supply and demand because that's what the market is.
And so the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices.
joe spector
Yeah.
It like makes I've, you know, again, I think I'm a curious person and I try to like understand like, could it be something else?
Is there another reason?
Like, why would this, if you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think that the way to solve that is to have more veterinarians.
tucker carlson
Of course.
joe spector
And that's just not what they're doing.
They've like literally, I at this point know several vet schools that have just stopped development, you know, gave up because the AVMA basically told them that they're not going to get a license.
That's no, I'm not sure.
tucker carlson
Because there are very relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians.
joe spector
Oh, there's totally few.
Like, just think, I can tell you this statistic.
There's about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pets in America.
For context, the ratio in human health care is 1 to 20.
tucker carlson
No way.
joe spector
The disparity is so huge, and the amount of vet schools is so little.
Like, we can have dozens of vet schools pop up and it would still maybe not be enough in the next decade.
And like I said, this trade organization is refusing to launch any new schools.
tucker carlson
Well, I mean, that's a cartel.
That's cartel behavior.
joe spector
It's very much cartel behavior.
And what's crazy is I feel like then this gaslighting happens where I'm painted as the bad guy.
And they'll say, this guy, Joe, or Dutch, you know, he's just self-interested.
He just wants, you know, he's the one that wants your money.
And I'm like, how is that possible when I am like reducing the cost?
Like, it doesn't make sense.
tucker carlson
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That could never happen here.
Obviously, it's America.
People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice.
The last few years have taught us that.
When the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter, yeah, it happened and it could happen again.
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How did you get into this?
joe spector
A couple of reasons.
So prior to Dutch, I was one of the co-founders of HIMS and HERS.
And so I helped start that telemedicine journey.
And I would say if we back it up even more, we'd have to go back to my experience coming to America and just always as an immigrant and having to figure things out.
When we, my family and I immigrated from the Soviet Union to the Bay Area.
tucker carlson
No, but where in the Soviet Union?
joe spector
From Uzbekistan.
tucker carlson
Uzbekistan.
joe spector
Former current separate country of the Soviet Union.
tucker carlson
Yeah, but then a Soviet Republic.
joe spector
Yep.
tucker carlson
What was Uzbekistan like?
joe spector
You know, it's it's very, it's Muslim majority, but it, I would say, secular.
And everyone got along, I thought, quite well, and we're Jewish.
And I actually didn't even know Jews and Muslims are supposed to not get along when I, we went to each other's weddings.
There's lots of shared history and similarity.
tucker carlson
That's been true, by the way.
I have to say factually, that has been true in various parts of the world over time.
You know, not always, of course, there are huge problems, but then other places there are no problems.
And that was one of them.
joe spector
Yeah.
So it was, you know, we, you know, I mean, I had a good childhood.
We left everything behind because my dad was almost thrown into a labor camp for having an illegal book, which is just like a regular, I'm sure it's probably maybe a book on your shelf.
What book on it?
It's called Exodus by Leon Uris.
tucker carlson
No way.
joe spector
Yeah.
tucker carlson
And it's a book by the 70s.
Yeah.
joe spector
Fighting for freedom.
Exactly.
I think it's a concept they didn't want you to know about.
tucker carlson
Yeah.
joe spector
And we fled.
We fled with, I had a hundred bucks and a red suitcase.
And we left, lived in Italy in a refugee camp for several months, eventually got political asylum to come to the United States.
And then, you know, lived in low-income housing for a long time.
tucker carlson
In the Bay Area.
joe spector
In the Bay Area.
tucker carlson
What was that like?
joe spector
A couple of things.
First, my dad definitely told us that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn the language.
He himself, he was a civil engineer.
And I saw him at first working flea markets, just doing manual labor.
And I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table.
And I think later in life, it showed me, you know, no one's too good to take out the garbage.
tucker carlson
That's right.
That is exactly right.
joe spector
And just the value of a dollar.
I still, I think, you know, I want to make sure my kids have that, but I still think, and I think back to this business.
I think that's why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones because I still know what it's like to not have any money to make difficult decisions when you only have so many dollars every month.
tucker carlson
What did your dad wind up doing?
joe spector
He ended up going back to being an engineer.
tucker carlson
Wow.
joe spector
He got trained, education, and he found a mentor who took him under his wing and he became an engineer again.
Amazing.
Yep.
They really, yeah.
So in so many ways, they inspired me.
And with that said, there's not much that they knew about America.
And so I knew that they would love me.
But a lot of times I had to figure everything out for myself.
I went to college.
I paid for college myself.
And I think all these things taught me to be a survivor, taught me to make something out of nothing.
And kind of that's, that's led me to hymns.
And ultimately, that led me to Dutch.
tucker carlson
Were you an animal person?
joe spector
We had animals.
So in the Soviet Union, tons of animals.
So I was definitely grew up with animals, German shepherd, had a black cat.
So we had animals up until I was 10.
And then we lived in apart in tiny, tiny apartments.
And so then we got finally when I had a family and we had a house, we got, so that's when we got my corgi.
And that's kind of how it all happened because I was coming off HIMS.
It was starting to be a big company.
I always like smaller companies and when I can actually still create something.
unidentified
Yes.
joe spector
And then we got a Corgi and started to see the vet bills.
And then the kicker was he got into a Trail Mix.
And then we had a $2,000 vet bill.
tucker carlson
Trail mix?
joe spector
Yeah, like Trail Mix had like a couple M ⁇ Ms in it.
tucker carlson
Oh, yeah.
joe spector
And they're supposed to eat chocolate.
tucker carlson
Not supposed to eat M ⁇ Ms. Yeah.
They like them, though.
joe spector
Yeah, I like them.
unidentified
Who does?
joe spector
Yeah.
tucker carlson
And did he get sick?
joe spector
No, but the thing is, and that's the thing, is then I was talking to a veterinarian friend and he said, like, you really didn't have to do, you didn't have to like pump his stomach for like the three M ⁇ Ms that he ate.
And I, so then that's kind of how I started to look around.
Like, are there any, like, could I done something else?
tucker carlson
Did you pump his stomach?
unidentified
Yes.
tucker carlson
So can I just pause and say, I love how, even if they're misguided, I love how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats.
I mean, they just like, they'll do anything.
joe spector
Yeah, I'll do anything.
tucker carlson
Yeah.
joe spector
Yeah.
I'll do anything.
And, but, and, and so I think that's when I realized there's really no like other option when it comes to, there's no telemedicine options that I saw.
And it, and it goes back to that a lot of times that has to do with the laws.
But look, I'm the guy who I figured when him started, it was actually a similar situation.
Back five years ago, telemedicine wasn't legal on the human side either.
Like we forget that because it's now so commonplace, but it was also the same thing.
And I, and I helped change those laws back then.
I think that's kind of why some of these groups are scared of me is because this guy comes from a place where like he has nothing to lose.
He's only doing, I mean, I also, I think it's because I'm doing the right thing.
I think they don't like that.
And I've done it before.
So I think that kind of gives me more confidence that I can do it again.
And I don't think that's because before this, so before Dutch came on the scene, what the shelter groups, for example, that wanted telemedicine, what they were doing is talking to the state veterinary boards.
Because that's how the, that's an, that's a simpler way that this could all change.
If the veterinary board at the state, they could just say, if you want to do telemedicine, do telemedicine if it's medically appropriate.
tucker carlson
Yeah.
joe spector
It could be as simple as that.
And so for over 10 years, they were having these conversations.
And so that's when I got here.
And I'm like, this is doing nothing.
So we got to go the legislative route.
tucker carlson
It's so revealing, however, I mean, again, I think they're probably good people with good motives up and down the line.
There always are in these systems, but the system itself is so distorted that they don't put the welfare of animals as the top goal.
Like that always has to be the point, right?
If you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist.
joe spector
Totally.
tucker carlson
Right?
joe spector
Totally.
tucker carlson
But it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way.
joe spector
Well, again, what they'll say is, we are thinking of the pets.
We think millions of dogs will die with telemedicine.
tucker carlson
How will that happen?
joe spector
They'll, well, let me tell you, of some of these examples I've seen, they'll say, like, I'll say the example I used, anxiety.
Like, I'll say, isn't that great for telemedicine?
The dog is in the comfort of their home and you can shoot them.
They'll say, well, well, what if the dog ate a nail?
You know, if the dog ate a nail, I've been in hearings where this example has happened.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe spector
Well, if the dog ate a nail, look, maybe he's barking because he ate a nail and he's in pain because he ate a nail.
And so that's why we shouldn't have.
It's like, are there nails on your house?
Like, why are we going to use this crazy made-up example to deny millions of dogs from having this opportunity to use telemedicine?
Sure.
tucker carlson
And if your dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't start with telemedicine.
joe spector
Exactly.
unidentified
Yeah.
joe spector
Have that initial call.
tucker carlson
Yeah.
joe spector
The vet will walk you through it.
And then you'll know, do I go to ER or not?
Exactly.
It's not, it doesn't have to be in either order.
tucker carlson
We had a family dog who ate a pin recently.
A needle, you know, a sewing needle.
And, you know, obviously that's a brick and mortar situation.
Yes.
The dog passed it without any problems, which is kind of the canine digestive tract is a wonder.
joe spector
Wow.
tucker carlson
All kinds of things, mops, pine cones, sewing needles emerge from it.
But it still would have been worth calling initially.
Like, why not?
joe spector
Totally.
Why not?
It takes before Dutch.
There's a poison hotline that's like $75 just for that first call.
tucker carlson
Yes.
joe spector
And you don't even know who you're going to get.
And that's what people do because, again, if that's what you need to do, that's what you'll do.
But there's definitely ways to talk to a human being veterinarian very quickly, even that for much less and definitely much less than having to spend $1,000 in ER.
I had a case where my dog, I thought he was having a seizure and I really, I mean, I really freaked out.
And I got on Dutch and the vet says he's doing reverse sneezing.
tucker carlson
Reverse sneezing.
joe spector
Reverse sneezing.
I never heard of that in my life.
And she showed me videos of reverse sneezing and it looked exactly like what he was going through.
And like I said, I was literally about to grab him, drive to ER, and she totally calmed me down and made me realize it was completely.
tucker carlson
Totally right.
That's, oh, what a great example.
We just had a dog.
We've had a dog eat marijuana in the park.
We had a dog eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods.
Totally.
The dog has been tripping ever since.
Those four years ago, the dog is still seeing trails.
Wonderful dog.
Woke up with the dog this morning.
But in both cases, there really was no treatment at all.
And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not, not again, I love the vet.
I'm not against the vet, to be clear, but it didn't help at all because it's just no remedy.
unidentified
Right.
joe spector
There's a time and a place for everything.
tucker carlson
Right.
joe spector
And I think telemedicine is just a part of the overall experience.
I don't think anyone's going to say it needs to replace the, and it won't happen because it hasn't happened in human care.
But I think it's another option for people to get a peace of mind and to have an option that's way more affordable.
And we are seeing so many dogs, like I said, being given up or people who are saying, I don't think I can have a dog in my life.
Yes.
That sucks.
tucker carlson
Well, that's a tragedy.
Especially people with children need to have dogs, I think.
joe spector
Totally.
It's been, yeah, for us, my kids, our little Eddie, the corgi, they love him so much.
And it's, it's the best.
tucker carlson
Can I also say it's really good for your immune system to be around dogs?
joe spector
Yeah, I think I've seen studies that really?
Yeah.
tucker carlson
When our first child, who's 31, came home from the hospital after being born, both of our dogs, our spaniel, jumped up and licked the dog, licked the child in the mouth.
Child's never been sick.
It's just a fact.
joe spector
Yeah, I think it definitely, I feel like I've seen stuff that really you get that immunity.
I'm pretty sure.
tucker carlson
We've always, since I was born, we've always, my family's always been committed to that.
Like you've got to have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy and everyone's been really healthy.
I think that matters.
So again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because you've advertised on our show and all that, but I just, I just felt it so strongly.
I feel like this is such a good thing.
And I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree.
And so I just, it was sincere.
joe spector
I really.
Well, I think when you first called me, it was, hey, I like dogs.
This makes sense.
And I think I already, I was like, Tucker's got to know this conspiracy that's happening because it's such baloney and it's so unfair.
And so few people kind of, like I said, know how monopolistic it is.
And I thought that your listeners and you could help us because I think we're the Goliath in this fight or the, right, with a David in this fight.
And it needs people to understand how crazy the situation is for both for veterinarians who, like I said, feel scared to do telemedicine as well as for pet owners who can't afford it.
And it all has to do with these trade associations who are keeping and using their monopoly power to change to keep the laws from changing.
So I think that whole part, you had no idea what's going on.
tucker carlson
I had literally no idea.
And again, for us at this age, you know, it's the cost is not the main barrier for us.
The barrier is the dog.
It's just so much suffering for the dogs to go to the vet.
And sometimes there's no choice.
And I get it.
But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid it.
joe spector
And your dogs.
tucker carlson
So it's Dutch.com.
joe spector
Yep.
D-U-T-C-H.
tucker carlson
Well, I'm sure I'll be attacked for insider dealing, but it's not.
I think you advertise with us no matter what.
But I just wanted you to be able to say all of that at length.
So I'm grateful that you did.
joe spector
Thank you.
Yes.
tucker carlson
Joe Spector.
Thank you.
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