The Tucker Carlson Show - Lee Strobel: Possession, Miracles, Visions, and Encounters With Angels & Demons

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Sept. 1, 2025 - The Tucker Carlson Show

01:55:24

Lee Strobel: Possession, Miracles, Visions, and Encounters With Angels & Demons

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lee strobel

01:25:43

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26:48

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tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So we're told there's no state religion in the West, certainly not in the United States, but in fact there is.
		It's scientism.
		It's the worship of science.
		It's the belief, and all of us learn this at a young age, that everything around us, everything we experience, can be measured by people in white coats.
		That's science.
		If it can't be measured, it's not real.
		The problem with this religion is that our life, our daily experience contradicts it.
		Constantly, all of us are seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling things that can't be measured by science, but it doesn't make them any less real.
		These are, by definition, supernatural.
		Supernatural experiences are a feature of everyone's life.
		And if we're honest, we'll admit that.
		So what do they mean exactly?
		Well, Lee Strobel was a reporter.
		He worked for the Chicago Tribune and left and became a pastor.
		So he has religious faith, but also a grounding in empiricism, the desire to prove things.
		He is the perfect person to write the book that he did about the supernatural.
		That would be dreams, mystical dreams, near-death experiences, mirac are and what they mean.
unidentified		music
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Lee Stroboth.
		So you've written a book.
		I don't do a lot of book interviews.
		Couldn't resist this one.
		Seeing the Supernatural, investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death encounters, and other mysteries of the unseen world.
unidentified		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I think a lot of us sense or know on some level, in fact I think everyone knows on some level, that there is a world that science cannot measure or quantify.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That there is, you know, that there's stuff that we can't explain.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But that it's no less real for our inability to explain it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So let's go through the list.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		You know, by the way, I was an atheist.
		I'm trained in journalism and law.
		And so I'm always looking for corroboration.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I'm looking for evidence.
		I'm looking for facts.
		And so you're right.
		I think there is an intuitive sense that most people have that there's something beyond what we can see.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Eight out of ten Americans believe that.
		But how do we know?
		What is the evidence?
		And that's what I try to get into in the book.
		How can we be sure through corroborated evidence that indeed there are such things as miracles, as near-death experiences, as death bed encounters and mystical dreams and things like that?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, atheism is the leap of imagination.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It is, that's true.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It's hard to be an atheist.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's very true.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You admire them in a way though.
		Feel sorry for them.
		Anyway, okay.
		Angels.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It's an angel.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating, you know, angels are created by God before human kind was created.
		They are spirit beings, so they are not omniscient like God is.
		They are not omnipresent like God is.
		They are they don't age because there's no physical body.
		They don't marry because there's no physical body.
		They are very intelligent, very smart, and they are, according to the Bible, they are to serve not only God but also His people.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And what's interesting is the Christian Bible with the Hebrew Old Testament makes references.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Is there any culture in the world that doesn't believe in some form of angel?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's pretty universal.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Like every culture.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just virtually every culture.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Inuit, all the way to the Mayas.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Canaanites.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And what's interesting about the Christian interpretation of angels is that it says in the book of Hebrews in the Bible that we should anticipate the possibility that we would encounter an angel.
		In other words, it says sometimes when you're providing hospitality to someone, unbeknown to you, it's an angel.
		And so there's an anticipation that perhaps there could be angelic encounters.
		And so what I try to look at in the book are cases in which we have angelic encounters.
		People actually encounter angels.
		I'll give you an example.
		There was a missionary named John G. Payton, PATON, from Scotland.
		And he went to an island in the South Pacific to be a Christian missionary.
		And he and his wife were living in a cottage there.
		And he's talking about Jesus.
		Well, the local tribes people didn't quite like that.
		And so one day a mob of them came to burn down their house and kill him.
		So they see this mob forming.
		And he and his wife are in their house.
		And what can they do?
		They start to pray.
		It's like, God, protect us.
		Help us.
		They're going to kill us.
		They're going to burn down our house.
		What do we do?
		And they prayed all night long.
		And by dawn, the mob began to dissipate.
		said a year later he led the head of that mob to faith in Jesus Christ.
		And they're having a conversation and John said to him, By the way, do you remember that day when you all came to burn down our house and kill us?
		Why didn't you do it?
		And the man said, Well, who were all those men you had there?
		He said, No, men, it was just my wife and I. He said, No, no, no, no, your house was surrounded by these muscular men in white garments with drawn swords.
		There's no way we could have hurt you that night.
		Well, what's the explanation for that?
		I think it could very well have been an angelic encounter that God had sent angels to protect him.
		And there's multiple numbers of cases like that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Give me another.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had an encounter myself when I was twelve years old.
		It was the only dream I remember as a child.
		It was more of a vision than a dream.
		An angel appeared to me and started extolling heaven.
		How beautiful and wonderful heaven is.
		And I looked at him kind of offhandedly and said, Well, you know, I'm going there one day.
		And he looked at me and said, How do you know?
		And I was shocked by that.
		Well, how do I know?
		And I started to kind of stumble around to justify my goodness.
		I said, Well, I obey my parents pretty much.
		and I get good grades in school and my friends liked me and I'm trying to justify why I would get into heaven.
		And he looked at me and he said, That doesn't matter.
		And this chill went through my spine.
		How can this not matter?
		And he said, Some day you'll understand.
		And then disappeared.
		Well, I kind of wrote it off as being a bad pizza and ultimately became an atheist.
		But sixteen years later, as an atheist, my wife brought me to a church and I heard the gospel for the first time.
		That salvation, that the doors of heaven are not flung open based on how nice you are to your parents or how good.
		How good grades you get in school.
		It's based on the grace of God.
		It's not something we earn.
		It's a free gift of God's grace.
		And I heard that message for the first time, and my mind flashed back to that dream, and I thought, wait a minute.
		That's what he was trying to tell me back then.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Have you thought a lot about that dream in the subsequent years?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It would come to me every once in a while.
		I'd think about it, I'd just suppress it.
		Well, it was a bad pizza, you know.
		But then I thought there's two forms of corroboration there.
		Number one, that angel told me something when I was twelve years old that I did not already know that salvation is by grace.
		And secondly, he made a prophecy, a prediction that someday I would understand that came true.
		I think that was an angelic encounter that came true sixteen years later.
		I think that may have been an angelic encounter that I had.
		I can't prove it, but that corroboration tells me maybe it really was.
		So we see cases like this around the world, and it was more than two hundred references of angels in the Bible.
		There's not 100?
		Yeah, yeah.
		So, a lot of evidence that indeed this is part of God's creation.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		I've been to church.
		I don't know that I've probably the wrong kind of church, but I don't know that I've ever heard anyone refer to an angel.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's so funny you say that because I was giving a talk the other day and I said, you know, I've been a Christian now since November 8, 1981.
		I have never heard a sermon on the topic of angels.
		Ever, ever.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		And I go and so in this book I delve into it and I learn some new things.
		For instance, do we have a guardian angel?
		Well, there's actually two passages in the Bible that suggest maybe we do have a guardian angel.
		In one passage Jesus is talking to a group and there's some children there and he said, Do not despise these little ones because their angels see the face of God every day in heaven.
		Who are their angels?
		And then secondly, Peter, when he escapes from prison, goes to a home where some Christians had gathered and he knocks on the door.
		And the servant says who's there and he says Peter and she recognizes his voice and she calls out to the other people and says, Hey, Peter's here.
		Well, I said, Can't be here, he's in prison.
		Peter can't be here.
		It must be his angel.
		So based on those two passages, there are Christians who believe that we have an angel assigned to us.
		In fact, I believe in the Orthodox Christian tradition, they believe an angel is assigned to you at the time you're baptized.
		I don't know.
		There are Christians who deny that, but it could be.
		But the other thing I learned in my investigation of angels, I thought, you know what?
		I don't think it's appropriate to pray to angels.
		I don't believe we're taught to do that.
		I think there's a slippery slope if you pray to angels.
		that it might slip into worship of angels, which would be blasphemous.
		But there's nothing wrong with praying to God about angels.
		Martin Luther in the small catechism has a prayer, an evening prayer that says, Lord, send your holy angels to protect me from the evil one.
		And so I never used to do this, but I now make part of my prayer that God would send angels to protect me and my family, my ministry, my grandchildren, and so I think that's totally appropriate to do.
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		We're going to get to demons in a second, but you used the phrase the evil one.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So, the foundational Christian prayer is what we call the Lord's Prayer, handed down by Jesus himself.
		Right.
		at the end of it um after you know we seek forgiveness and forgive those who've sinned against us lead us not in temptation but deliver us from evil is the way that most I think Americans learn the prayer yeah but there's another interpretation that says deliverivers from the evil one.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And I didn't know that until later in life, but I, um, I suspect that that was kind of toned down because the evil one is a little bit too too too supernatural.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, you know, there is an embarrassment in American culture towards some of these supernatural phenomena.
		In other words, American Christians often want to be accepted and seen as normal by their neighbors.
		Oh, yes, I go to church and yes, I believe in Jesus, but you know, you won't catch me talking about angels or demons or miracles or any of this weird stuff.
		They want to be accepted as being normal by other people.
		And so I think there's a lot of people that just just don't delve into that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		There's a de-emphasis.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		There's a de-emphasis in many churches and in many Christian lives.
		And yet Jesus clearly believed not only in angels, but he was an exorcist.
		You know, even skeptics will admit, according to the gospels, that Jesus was an exorcist.
		So he believed in Satan, he believed in demons.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was one of the primary activities of life on earth.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Look at the Gospel of Mark, I think half of his activity is related in some way to fighting demons.
		So this is something as a Christian that we ought to believe and then consider what are the implications of this.
		That if this is true, if there is a demonic realm, if there is an angelic realm, What are the implications to me today?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would put it another way.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Has there, are you aware of any society in the known history of the human race that didn't believe that there was a supernatural realm filled with good and evil?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it's virtually universal.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard of any culture that didn't believe that.
		Except in the postwar West.
		Drop the atom bomb, get rid of the supernatural.
unidentified		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because we're God now.
		Yeah, that's right.
		But before that, I mean, I just think this was taken as a matter of course.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Right.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Of course, yeah, naturally.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So if every society in known history reaches the same version of the same conclusion.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It suggests maybe there's something there.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It sure does.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It sure does.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why would you come up with exactly?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's funny.
		People will say, well, you need extraordinary evidence to prove an extraordinary claim, which I don't think is legitimate.
		I don't think that stands to scrutiny, but let's take it for a moment on a face value and say, you need extraordinary evidence to prove an extraordinary claim.
		Well, the claim that there are demons is not an extraordinary claim.
		I just think it's because 95% of humanity through history has believed in it.
		So if you're an atheist, the onus is on you.
		You must present the extraordinary evary evidence that the demonic doesn't exist.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are also moments in the life of every person who is awake and not on fentanyl, maybe even people who are on fentanyl, I hope, where you know that you're being acted on by an outside force of some kind.
		You have no idea what it is.
		But there are moments when you are much better than yourself, much more empathetic.
		And there are other moments where you're seized by the desire to destroy for the sake of destruction, which also doesn't make any sense.
		There's no kind of evolutionary biological accounting for that.
		Why would you want to destroy something without a reason?
		Another person, an object, but the impulse to destroy clearly.
		the hallmark of evil, right?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It is, and it's consistent with the Christian teaching that the demonic realm exists, that it is intent on, uh, luring us away from him and, and luring us down a path that is dark and that is dangerous.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But people feel that, you don't have to be a Christian to have felt that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If you're honest with yourself, there are moments where you're like, why did I do that?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Right?
		And yet we do have cases where we have evidence that there is a demonic realm.
unidentified		All right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So let's go, let me ask you one last angel question.
		Because I'm trying to faithfully show in order based on.
		because you can judge a book by its cover, I've decided.
		So you said that angels in the New Testament, and perhaps also in the Old, but it, uh, angels are described as present in our world.
		Yes.
		We will mistake angels for people.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's predicted.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So do you think that happens?
		Yes.
		And if so, Can you give us an example?
		And what would be the purpose of that?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
		In the book of Hebrews, it says that we will do it unbeknownst to ourselves.
		So in other words, the implication is that we will have angelic encounters, but we won't really realize they're angels.
		And I think that does happen.
		Now, I have a couple of cases in my book.
		One is a pastor who is driving his car in Ohio.
		He loses control of the car.
		He hits a telephone or an electric transformer, kind of a pole type thing.
		The wires fall down on his car.
		The doors are jammed shut.
		The electricity is coursing through the car.
		So much so that the windshield starts to melt.
		And he's trapped in this car.
		He doesn't know what to do.
		And he begins to pray, God, I'm stuck.
		I don't know what to do.
		And a man, scruffy kind of guy, comes walking up to the car.
		And he opens the car, whose doors were jammed.
		He opens the door, he reaches in, he lists out this pastor and takes him about fifty yards away from the car, which then explodes.
		And he says to the pastor, he says, You're going to be okay, you're okay now, but the police are on their way, and I can't be here when they get here.
		So you just know that you're okay.
		And he walked away and disappeared.
		Now, the people, the medics who came, the emergency technicians.
		and so forth that came as a result of the accident and they look at the cars.
		They can't explain how this is possible that someone could have opened that car door and not been electrocuted and rescued this pastor.
		And yet it happened.
		And the pastor says, I believe it was an angel.
		Well, maybe could have been.
		How do you prove something like that?
		But I mean, how do you explain it away naturally?
		How do you explain it away that he's able to come, grip the car door, and open up this car that had been jammed shut?
		So I think, yeah, there are cases where I think the logical explanation, the most reasonable explanation, if you don't rule out the supernatural at the outset, is that it was an angelic.
		encounter.
unidentified		Amazing.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But there are probably more subtle experiences too.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, no doubt.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Where you learn something, you encounter someone out of nowhere who tells you something or who tests your compassion.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Could very well be.
		And even the incident I had that seemed to as an atheist, so here I am in this church, nearly thirty years old, hearing this, understanding the gospel anyway for the first time.
		And that encounter I had with an angel is something to help open my heart to the truth of the gospel.
		Amazing.
		Of course, I had to spend two years of my life investigating it from a, you know, just to kind of conclude that it really was true, but it did propel me down that road toward God.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What are demons?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Demons are fallen angels.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The Bible is a little bit vague on this, but apparently what happened here, there was a, it's kind of funny, if I could just pause, this is my totally ignorant read of it.
		But when the supernatural host, when all these supernatural beings are referred to in the Bible, there's almost a sense in which the...
		Yes.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		It doesn't, it doesn't have a passage that says, By the way, these things are real.
		Let me explain all this to you.
		No, it doesn't do that, which is interesting.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But because the, I mean, the culture at the time was familiar with this, and there was, like, kind of no debate that there was a supernatural.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's sort of like the soul.
		I have a chapter in the book on the existence of the soul.
		And because a lot of scientists today will deny that the soul exists.
		The Bible doesn't say, By the way, you have a soul, and here's, let me define it for you.
		It presumes that we have a soul.
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lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's like a kind of soulless experience.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, if there's no human soul, then how is murder right wrong?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, exactly.
		And they'll say free will is impossible.
		So there is no free will.
		Yeah, it's crazy.
		It's crazy.
		But demons, it started out with Lucifer, whose name means morning star.
		And he was kind of first among angels.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Name means morning star.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Lucifer.
		He becomes Satan, which and the name Satan literally means adversary.
		And so the implication in Scripture is that this very prominent angel named Lucifer wanted to be worshipped.
		He is the one who wanted the worship.
		And so his pride is what resulted in him falling from the angelic realm, becoming Satan, becoming someone.
		And you Think about this, when Jesus encounters Satan, what is it Satan wanted from him?
		Worship.
		Satan wanted Jesus to worship him.
		And that's what Lucifer wanted.
		It was pride that came in the way.
		He becomes Satan.
		And a certain percentage of the angels accompanied him in this fall.
		This happened before the fall of human kind in the Garden of Eden.
		So this dates that.
		We don't know how many angels accompanied him, but there are a lot of angels.
		In Revelation chapter five, there's a scene of Jesus on the throne being worshipped.
		And if you do the math, because it talks about it a little cryptically, it was a hundred million angels worshiping him at that time.
		So there's a lot of angels and a percentage of them fell with Lucifer, he became Satan and angels became his minions, so to speak.
		Now Satan is limited in his power.
		He's not omniscient like God is, he's not omnipresent like God is.
		In other words, a guy was telling me, said, There's probably never a time when you and Satan have both been in the same zip code because he's only in one place at a time.
		And so he's got things he's doing.
		He'll probably never have been in the same zip code you have, but his demons probably have been.
		And they carry out his will, which is to pull people away from God, to discourage people in finding God, and to drag as many people to hell with him as they can.
		Now, his existence, he's sort of on a leash by God at this point, his ultimate destination in the lake of fire is already predicted.
		So he has no future really, but he has influence and he has certain powers.
		And he's the very, he and the demons very intuitive.
		You'll think they know more than they know, and they go after people.
		I tell the story in my book about a very prominent psychiatrist named Richard Gallagher, educated at Ivy League University.
		I have a quote from the former president of the American Psychiatric Association calling him highest integrity, totally trained and prominent in his field of psychiatry.
		Of course, he's a medical doctor because he's a psychiatrist.
		Just extolling him as an individual and as a scientist, as a psychologist.
		And about twenty five years ago, he had two cats and they got along great.
		They slept together, they played together, everything was fine, until one night the cats started to attack each other, viciously.
		I mean, they're trying to kill each other, they're clawing each other, they're snarling each other, they're biting each other.
		It was, it was unbelievable.
		And they pulled them apart and put them into separate rooms and thought, what in the world was that all about?
		At 9 a.m. the next day, the doorbell rings, and it was a priest at appointment.
		A Catholic priest was bringing by a woman to be examined by Dr. Gallagher.
		She claimed that she was a high priestess of a Satanic cult, and he wanted her to be examined.
		Was she demonically possessed?
		Was she just crazy?
		Or what is this all about?
		So at nine AM the doorbell rings for his appointment and doctor Gallagher opens the door and here's this woman who claims to be a high priestess of a satanic cult who kind of looks up at him and sneers at him and says so how'd you like those cats last night?
		Ooh yeah There's something going on and that took him on a journey where he as a psychiatrist who understands what mental illness is and understands comes to understand what demon possession and demon oppression is like.
		He spends the next twenty five years as kind of the go to guy in the medical realm for exorcists of the Catholic faith and has witnessed amazing things that he documents and I quote him in the book cases where we have a woman who in front of eight eyewitnesses levitates off a bed for thirty minutes.
		Another case where people are speaking in Latin and other languages that they don't know, where they spontaneously are bruised and clawed, where one petite woman picked up a two hundred pound Lutheran deacon and threw him across a room.
		I mean, these are things, as he said, they go beyond psychiatry.
		He believes these are actual demonic possessions.
		Now, a true Christian cannot be demonically possessed.
		And the reason is a true Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit.
		He cannot be indwelled by evil and good like that in the same way at the same time.
		So Christians cannot be possessed, but they can be oppressed.
		They can be hectored.
		They can be bothered.
		They can be attacked by demons.
		And there are some amazing examples of that.
		I just mentioned a couple of people who are hectored or bothered by demons.
		Now, for Christians, the book of James says to if you rebuke Satan, he'll go away.
		So if you're a Christian, you don't have to be afraid that, you know, these demons are going to somehow possess you or kill you or whatever.
		Greater is He who is in you than He who is in the world, the Bible says.
		And so the Bible says, if you shun Satan, he has no choice.
		He's got to leave you.
		So for a Christian, you're protected.
	But I fear for those that don't have that kind of protection.
	There are cases of demon possession that, as doctor Gallagher and others have documented, are corroborated in ways that I don't think they can be denied.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How can you corroborate a supernatural event?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I think by the when there's when there's no naturalistic explanation for what occurs.
		So you have a woman, for instance, in front of eight eyewitnesses levitating off a bed for thirty minutes.
		I don't know what the natural explanation for that would be.
		That's right.
		So I think it points towards something beyond that.
		For me, as I investigate another area I investigate in the book are miracles.
		And for me, if you have solid documentation, medical documentation, if you have multiple eyewitnesses with no motive to deceive, if you have no natural explanation that seems logical that can account for the phenomenon, and if it takes place in the context of prayer, then I think it's logical to conclude that a miracle has taken place.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And there have been miracles published in peer reviewed medical journals.
		I talk about one in my book.
		Here's a woman who was blind for twelve years with an incurable condition.
		She went to a school for the blind.
		She learned to read Braille, she walked with a white cane, and she married a Baptist pastor.
		And one night they're getting ready to go to bed, she's already in bed, he comes over to her and he puts his hand on her shoulder and he begins to cry.
		And he begins to pray and he says, Lord, I know you can heal my wife, I know you can heal her right now, and I pray that you do it tonight.
		And with that, she opened her eyes to perfect vision.
		She said, I was blind when my husband prayed for me.
		He prayed, I opened my eyes, I can see, it's a miracle.
		That was researched by multiple medical researchers and published in a medical journal as a case study.
		What do you do with that?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What do you do with what did they do with that?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I think it kind of leaves it up to the reader to say, what's your conclusion?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because they were upset by it.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have it certainly does point toward a supernatural event.
		But here's what's interesting.
		There's a woman with a PhD from Harvard who is a professor at Indiana University, major secular university.
		And she said, I'd like to test whether miracles are possible.
		How can we scientifically test that?
		So here's what she did.
		Miracles tend to cluster in places where the gospel is just breaking in.
		And so we see him in China, in Mozambique, in Brazil, places where the gospel is taking root.
		We see miracles taking place in a disproportionate number.
		So she says, I'm going to put it to the test.
		So she sends a team of scientists to Mozambique and researchers to Mozambique, and they go into the bush and they say, Bring us all your deaf and blind.
		So they bring all the people deaf, blind or with severe hearing or vision problems.
		They bring them and they test them scientifically right there.
		What is your level of vision?
		What is your level of hearing?
		They get that scientifically established.
		Then immediately they are prayed for in the name of Jesus by people.
		who tend to have a track record of God using them that way.
		And then immediately after that, they're tested again.
		Guess what they found?
		Improvement in virtually every case.
		In fact, get this, the average improvement in visual acuity was tenfold.
		There was a woman named Martine.
		When they first encountered her, she could not hear the equivalent of a jackhammer next door.
		After ten minutes of prayer, she could now hear normal conversations.
		Well, this team is flummixed by this.
		It's like, what something is going on here?
		Virtually every person improves some of them dramatically so like Martine.
		Let's see if we can replicate it.
		So we'll go to another place where miracles are breaking in Brazil.
		They did the same test, they got the same results.
		In fact, there was a woman in Brazil.
		She couldn't see me holding up three fingers from nine feet away, and after prayer for her healing, she could read the name tag of the person praying for her.
		Tucker, this was published.
		This is a scientifically rigorous study that was published in a peer reviewed secular scientific medical journal, major medical journal, the Southern Medical Journal, published this.
		And I said, what do you think of this?
		And she said, something's going on.
		She said, this isn't, we're not playing on people's emotions.
		This is not some televangelist trying to get people to send in their money.
		This is not some people have a predisposition for anything.
		Something's going on.
		And I think she's right.
		I think it's miraculous.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It sounds it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And I think every person who's awake has experienced something that just doesn't, doesn't have a natural effect.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		38 percent.
		I did a study.
		I hired a public opinion firm to do a scientifically accurate study of American adults.
		And I asked the question, have you ever had one experience, at least in your life, that you can only explain away as being a miracle of God.
		38% of American adults said yes.
		And by the way, let's say 99% of them are wrong.
		Let's say they think it was a miracle, but it was just a big coincidence.
		So let's just wipe out 99% and say, no, no, no, you thought it was a miracle.
		It really wasn't.
		Let's wipe away 99%.
		Guess what?
		That would still mean there would be a million miracles, nearly, in the United States alone.
		So you're right.
		So many people have experienced something in their life that they can only attribute to being a miracle of God.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The official story on 9-11 is a complete lie.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The 9-11 report is a joke.
unidentified		You have the CIA following two men all over the planet and eventually even to America, right?
		And you don't tell the FBI.
		9/11 Commission, cover.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So what did happen?
		What did the government know?
		What did foreign governments know?
		There was a cover-up.
		Why?
		It's been nearly 25 years.
		It's time Americans learned what actually happened.
		We're going to tell you.
		Releasing one episode per week.
		week you're not gonna want to wait if you're a member you don't have to you'll get all five episodes the day it drops right then ad free our first episode airs Thursday 9 11 September 11 you will not want to miss it join us now at tuckercarlson dot com When Jesus performs miracles healing people Yes.
		Making the lame walk, fixing the man with the withered hand.
		Yeah.
		Even when he casts out demons from the man in the cemetery on the Sea of Galilee.
		The reaction he gets from particularly religious authorities, the Pharisees, but they hate it.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		They hate it.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they do.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's funny you say that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why is that?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, I wrote a novel once, a fiction book of fiction.
		It was like a John Grisham thriller.
		Nobody read it.
		It was a big bomb, and nobody bought my book.
		But in that book, I have a politically ambitious pastor, and there's a mystery.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		There's nothing worse.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		And there's a miracle that happens in his congregation, and a reporter comes to question him about it, and the reporter's thinking, oh my gosh, the evidence is overwhelhelming some of it, and the pastor is downplaying it.
		No, no, no, no, that's just a coincidence.
		That can't be true.
		The pastor's Because why?
		Because he wants to be, he doesn't want to be seen as being weird by the community in general, and it would poison his political chances.
		So there is something true to that in Americans, and we tend to suppress it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, not I mean, but I mean, this is an account from two thousand years ago.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No Americans in the New Testament, and they had the same reaction.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But the religion, they didn't like Jesus.
		They didn't like his message.
		They didn't like who he was.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I get it.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I think they'd be happy that the lame man can walk after thirty years.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		You know, at least they could say, Hey, good for you.
		That's great.
		By the way, we don't like this Jesus guy.
		But no, they didn't.
		They just said, We don't like this Jesus guy.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No, actually, they planned to kill the man he ate.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And they did, yes, exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So there's a couple of references, at least a couple of references, in the New Testament to Satan being the ruler of the earth.
unidentified		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It means that in this realm, he, in many ways, has his way.
		In other words, he has access to be able to influence people and point them away from the one true hope that there is, which is God.
		And so he prowls about, as the Bible says, like a lion.
		Hoping to tear people apart spiritually.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if that's not true, then explain the First World War.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there's just no, there's no explanation even now, over a hundred years later, Yeah.
		For why that war started.
		Oh, you know, Archduke Ferdinand got shot to death in Sarajevo, really?
		Okay, that's not a real explanation actually.
		Why did Christian Europe commit suicide?
		Yeah.
		And there are many other wars and many other tragedies in all of our lives.
		Like, that doesn't make any sense.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It's clearly, you know, sort of, you know, supernatural forces are acting on people.
unidentified		I agree.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And so what I try to do is say, okay, what evidence is there that there's more than what we can see and touch?
		And because I'm fascinated by this, and the reason I say that, Tucker, is because if this is true, if demons exist, we ought to be heads up about it, because the two biggest mistakes we can make about the demonic realm, number one, is to deny that they exist, and number two, to see a demon behind every bush and think they're more powerful than they are.
		Right.
		There are both problems, but I think the biggest problem in our culture is to deny that there is a demonic realm, pretend like there isn't.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So what are the character marks of it then?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think some things you mentioned, we see manifestations of it in ways that defy natural explanations.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's probably the best way of disorder, distraction, chaos, violence, hate, division.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And you think if Satan were smart, which he is, would he go around the country and around the world trying to possess or bother average everyday people?
		Well, you know what?
		Much more efficient to go to Hollywood and to influence a bunch of people there who are very influential in, let's say, he encourages them to create films and television shows that are funny and that are creative and that are fun.
		But there's an underlying message to them that there's a normalization of immoral activity that makes it normal because when we laugh, it opens us up to various possibilities.
		When we laugh, our defenses come down.
		So I'm thinking of a wonderful funny TV show like Friends.
		Remember Friends, the TV show was on TV for years.
		Very popular show.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Only Americans never saw it.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But underlying that is a very ugly sexual ethic.
		that normalizes multiple sexual partners and that sort of thing.
		The kind of thing that Satan would love to inculcate into American culture.
		And you know what?
		I think it's much more efficient for Satan to influence filmmakers and TV makers in Hollywood to create products that feed us stuff that without us even realizing it, open us up to the occult, open us up to immoral activity, normalize it in ways that, well, if Monica could do that on Friends, I can certainly have sex on the first date with this guy I meet.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So the way I am a non-vi theological, ignorant person trying to figure out whether something's good or bad?
		Because it is an open question very often.
		It's not good.
		Is that good or bad?
		I'm not sure.
		Are the people doing it in peace, joyful, happy?
		Are they tormented?
		And I know a lot of people in Hollywood, a lot of people I like actually, not too many happy people.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So really tormented people.
		There's a real string of wrecked relationships, kids who hate them, trans kids, drug problems.
		Like there's so much of that.
		Yeah.
		Do you think that's a fair way to assess?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I think because it is logical that if Satan were to try to influence a culture in a mass way, that is a logical way that he would do it.
		And oh, guess what?
		By the way, look at all the dysfunction we see in that community.
		It does seem to match.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So if evil is acting through you, you are harmed too.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Generally, I would say, yes, you're going to be a you're going to be someone who's trying to influence others.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		You may not realize the full effect.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It destroys you.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it does destroy you.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It certainly it certainly seems to.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think so.
		Who would, you know, God created us so we could have a relationship with him.
		So he taught us how we can live in a way that maximizes who we are.
		And when we stray from that in that in egregious ways, as many people have and do, there are implications for us.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If I were trying to subvert and destroy, I would go after religious leaders.
		I would have them like molest kids or have freaky sex lives or steal money from the church.
		And you do I've always noticed that the leadership of Christian churches in just like numerically, yeah.
		Much more likely to be screwed up than the people in the pews.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Do you know what I mean?
		You see these sex scandals with pastors and you're like, how many people who go to church every Sunday have sex lives like that?
		Probably not very many.
		But a pretty high percentage of pastors, and I feel like that is outside the influence.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Look at the teachers too.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Teachers those young kids look up to, you know, you can imagine when you were kindergarten, first grade, second grade, you looked up to your teachers.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Not one time.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		There's not one teacher I liked.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Oh really?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I sure did.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I never, no, I felt it was a kind of an authoritarian situation.
		I was totally opposed from kindergarten on until I left college.
		There was not one day where I respected or liked any of them, not a single one.
		That is, that is, I'm serious, dude.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That is so funny.
		I happened to go to public school growing up and yet back then in the 50s and 60s, most of the teachers were Christians.
		Yeah.
		And so, no, I had some wonderful teachers that taught me great lessons about life.
unidentified		So, you grew up in a better America than I did.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		In Southern California in the 70s, I thought they were all buffoons, freaks.
		I wasn't taking orders from them.
		I really dislike them.
unidentified		Sorry, excuse me.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's funny.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But, but, but, but if you want to lead people astray, you subvert their leaders, I guess.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, very much so.
		I mean, yeah, just put yourself in Satan's place.
		How are you going to impact the maximum number of people?
		You're going to want to go after leaders.
		You're going to want to go after religious leaders., you're going to want to go after children, you're going to, you know, and influence them at a young age.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How do you see all that?
		I often think, this is such a wonderful country despite all its problems.
		I'm totally convinced it's the best country having been to a lot of countries.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But our leadership is the worst.
		Yeah.
		They're the worst.
		They're like the worst people I've ever met.
		And maybe that's not accidental.
unidentified		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they're, uh, could it be, I'll just raise the question.
		Could it be that some people have received some assistance from demonic, uh, certainly seems that.
		of achieving what they've achieved.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How many happy political, I don't know how many political leaders you know, but how many happy ones have you met?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Gosh, not a lot I trust, put it that way.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right, but they're all like tormented.
		Sweaty and nervous and afraid.
		Don't you think those are signs?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I do, I do.
		And you look at if Satan is going to go after children, what is all this stuff about libraries doing children's readings and drag shows to little kids?
		Why?
		Why would that happen?
		You know what?
		Because if you can capture the mind of a child very young, it could influence them for the rest of their life.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What happens?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because we put up with that.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		We do.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		A healthy society would not put tolerate that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That's true for five minutes.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, they'd drive them out of the temple immediately with a whip.
		Sorry, excuse me.
		So you think that you believe that demons roam the earth?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How do you protect yourself?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		The Bible talks about in Ephesians, talks about the full armor of God.
		And I talk about this in a book.
		I have a half a chapter that looks at ways that we can protect ourselves.
		I think the key number one way is to be knowledgeable about Scripture.
		Because if the Bible is really from God, then that is the plumb line of truth.
		And if it's the plumb line of truth, we can measure everything against it.
		And so if we're tempted by something that violates that plumb line of truth, then we can be assured that's not from God.
		And so I think being familiar with what are the teachings of the Bible so that we can deter any effects, any attempts by Satan to lead us down a path that's clearly not biblical.
		So I think that's probably the number one way.
		I think prayer is important.
		I think honestly, and I say this granted as an evangelist who wants to drag as many people to heaven with me as I can.
		That's my life goal now as a former atheist.
		I will say the best way to protect yourself is to come into a relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
		Because if you are indwelled by the Holy Spirit, you can't be possessed by Satan.
		And you can tell Satan to flee.
		And the Bible says, He will flee.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is the Holy Spirit?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		The Holy Spirit, you know, the God is one what and three whose.
		The Bible teaches there is one God, that's clear.
		But it also teaches that the Father is God, that the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
		And so we have three, we have one what, which is God, and three persons.
		And so the Holy Spirit, you know, the Holy Spirit is God.
		being disembodied and so forth comes into the life of someone when they repent of their sin, receive forgiveness through Christ.
		John 112 says, but as many as received him to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in his name.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But in practical terms, it's like, what is the Holy Spirit?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So the Holy Spirit comes into you then, what happens?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Holy Spirit draws you.
		Now you've got a plum line inside you, so to speak, and you recognize, I'm sure you see things in your life now as a Christian that you did before you were a Christian.
		You say, why did I even do that?
		What was I messing with that?
		I certainly have those examples.
		Because now being indwelled by the Holy Spirit as a follower of Jesus, I have that plum line to tell me what's godly and what's not.
		And so it it it helps our conscience in understanding that.
		And by being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, it means we cannot be possessed by Satan as we see these demon possessions.
		And those are increasing in numbers.
		The Catholic Church has just added a whole bunch of people who are trained in exorcisms.
		You see in charismatic ministries, deliverance ministries, I think we're seeing an increase in demonic activity and in demonic power.
		And in demons hectoring and harassing and oppressing and possessing people.
		I think we're seeing an increase in that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Are there certain places?
		I mean, there are physical places.
		I have been where the hair on my arm seems to go up.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, me too.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And without any, you know, foreknowledge.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Not like, this is a really spooky place.
		Watch this.
		It's like, some place I can think of a few of them in my life where it's like, ooh.
		Think about what this is about.
		What is that?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, think of Haiti.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Think of Haiti.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I've been to Haiti.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I feel that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Certainly.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Good friend has a ministry in Haiti.
		And that's, that's a place that has opened itself up to the demonic through human sacrifice.
		Through voodoo, through all these things.
		And it is a place where you palpably feel evil often.
		I was in some remote parts of India and felt the same thing in many places.
		So I think there is just as miracles tend to break out in a positive way in places where the gospel is breaking in, I think we probably see pockets around the globe where Satan has a stronghold.
		And I would think that physical places.
		Physical places, yeah.
		Like I think Haiti is a good example of that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I've been to some places in the US where I felt that really strongly.
		I've been, I was in a house once.
		I lived in a house once as a child.
		We're part of the house.
		There's something so wrong with it.
		And every person who lived in the house knew that.
		Does that sound?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Could be.
		Could be.
		Could be an occult thing.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What's a mystical dream?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Mystical dreams.
		I talk about these in a book is so fascinating to me.
		We have seen more Muslims become Christians in the last couple of decades than in the 1400 years since Muhammad.
		And it's been estimated that a quarter to a third of them before they became a Christian had a Jesus dream.
		Now, what's interesting about that?
		is that these are corroborated dreams.
		I'll tell you what I mean by that.
		First of all, a devout Muslim has no incentive in, let's say, in a closed country where it's even illegal to share the Christian gospel, they have no incentive to have a dream as a product of their subconscious mind about Jesus, the Jesus of Christianity.
		Because it might lead them into apostasy.
		It might lead them to a death sentence in certain countries.
		So there's no incentive for a devout Muslim to have a dream about Jesus.
		And yet we are seeing this all over the Middle East.
		in closed countries, in oppressive countries where Christians are persecuted and so forth.
		But here's what I found most fascinating.
		In these cases, people are not going to sleep as a Muslim, having a dream about Jesus and waking up as a Christian.
		That's not how it works.
		There is always something that points to a phenomenon or an event or a person outside the dream that corroborates the dream.
		Let me give an example to clarify it.
		There was a woman named Nor in Cairo, mother of eight, devout Muslim.
		She goes asleep.
		It's like, unlike any dream she's ever had.
		And she feels the love and the grace and the beauty of Jesus in such a profound way.
		She said, Here I am, a woman in the presence of a man.
		For the first time in my life, I didn't feel shame.
		I felt love.
		And she's just overwhelmed by this, and they're walking along a lakeshore.
		And she says, Jesus, why do you appear to me?
		I'm just a poor mother of eight in Cairo.
		And Jesus said, My friend will tell you tomorrow.
		And she said, Who's your friend?
		And Jesus gestures to a man she didn't even realize was walking with them along the lakeshore because she was so mesmerized by Jesus she didn't notice this guy.
		And he says, My friend will tell you tomorrow.
		She wakes up.
		The next day she goes to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on a Friday afternoon and she sees the man from her dream.
		She goes up to him, say, You're the one, you're the he said, Whoa, what are you talking about?
		You're the man, same glasses, same face, same clothes.
		You're the one.
		He said, Did you ever dream about Jesus last night?
		Say yes.
		Turned out he was an underground church planter.
		He didn't want to go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday afternoon.
		It's chaotic, but he felt God had an assignment for him, so he went that day nor encounters him from the dream.
		He pulls her aside, opens the Bible and shares the gospel with her.
		That's the external corroboration that I'm talking about.
		It's not just something takes place in your subconscious mind.
		There is an external factor to it.
		I'll give you another example.
		There was a Franciscan apostle.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So one of the miracles, there are at least two in the story you just told.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And one of them is that the pastor felt the call to go to the marketplace on a Friday and he obeyed.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Have you had that experience in your life where you just feel like you're being told to do something and you obediently do it?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		Oh, yeah.
		I remember as a new Christian., I felt a really strong urging, I believe it was from God, to empty our bank account and send an anonymous cashier's check to a woman, a single woman in our church, send it anonymously and to do it on Friday.
		I don't know why, but it was on to do it on Friday.
		And I, my wife and I both prayed about it and said, yeah, we both feel this.
		It's odd, but we feel it's legit.
		So.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		To empty your bank account.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		We empty the bank account.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		We got it.
unidentified		That's odd.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is, Leah, that is odd.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Fair.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Hey, give us only 500.0.
		But still, for us, that was a lot of money back then.
		So we sent this check.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Did you know the woman?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we knew her.
		Yeah, nice woman.
		She had come to faith.
		She had actually had a lot of negative experience with Christians growing up, but she ended up coming to faith through a debate on Christianity we did in our church between an atheist and a Christian.
		And so I knew who she was and so forth.
		So on Monday morning, she calls me out of the blue and she's crying.
		She said, Lee, I don't know what to do.
		I said, What's going on?
		She said, My car broke down over the weekend.
		They say it's going to cost $500 for me to fix my car.
		I don't have $500.
		I'm going to lose my car.
		I'm going to lose my job because I got to have my car for the job.
		would you pray for me that I would get this $500 somehow?
unidentified		And I said, absolutely, I'll pray for me.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Let's pray.
		And sure enough, that afternoon, because I'd mail in Friday, Monday afternoon, she gets this anonymous $500 check.
		So there's Do you ever tell her?
		No, she doesn't, not unless she's listening, maybe she Is she still around?
		Oh, yeah, she's still, yeah.
		She actually quit her nursing job and joined the staff of our church.
		She used to deliver my mail every day at the church.
unidentified		Wow.
unidentified		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		So I guess if she's listening, now she'll know.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But you've never told her.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What year was that?
unidentified		No.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gosh, this was when I was a new Christian.
		At the church, it was probably 1987, somewhere in there.
		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So almost forty years ago.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Yeah.
		So yeah, I think that does happen where God influences you.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Do you try to be open?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I do.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I do.
		When I pray, I try to leave time at the end of the prayer, say, God, I'm just going to be quiet for a while.
		If there's anything you want to tell me, anything you need to alert me to, any way you want to lead me, I'm just going to be quiet.
		I'm just going to listen.
		And I just been, and normally there's nothing.
		That day there was $500.
		But normally I don't feel anything that specific.
		But it's okay, because what's important is saying I'm open, God, to anything you want me to do or what you want me to do.
		I'm open to it.
		Of course, anything.
		The Bible says test the spirits.
		So if I'm feeling something, I want to test it to make sure it's Scriptural, because God's not going to tell me to do, He's not going to go tell me to poison my neighbor.
		Okay.
		So it's going to be consistent with Scripture.
		But I want to leave myself that opportunity to open myself up and say, God, I'm listening.
		And just pause for a while and see, is there something?
		And on that day there was something.
		It doesn't happen that often, but every once in a while, something will take place like that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Amazing.
		So you, sorry for the cul de sac there.
		You believe there has been an uptick in mystical dreams.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Oh, definitely in the Middle East.
		In fact, get this, in Cairo, there's often an ad in the newspaper.
		And the ad says, Call this number and we'll tell you about the man in white you met in your dream last night.
unidentified		Really?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Because there's so many of these.
		I interviewed for my book, Seeing the Supernatural.
		I interviewed Tom Doyle, who is the world's leading expert on this.
		And Tom said, Lee, I could pick up the phone right now.
		And I'll give you five more stories.
		They are so common.
		I'll give you one from my church in Houston, Texas.
		So I'm part of a church.
		I live part time in Houston, part of a church there.
		I used to be on the staff.
		And there was a woman who was born in the Middle East, in a closed country where you can't share the gospel legally.
		And she had a dream when she was about sixteen years old.
		And she said it was unlike any dream I ever had because it was like a projector was projecting an image of Jesus.
		And it influenced her.
		It touched her, but she didn't know what to do with it.
		And she said I was having problems with my life., I called out for help and that's what happened.
		Well, she ended up marrying a Muslim gentleman who was transferred to Houston, Texas because of the oil industry.
		So she moves into near our church and she has another dream.
		And in this dream, she's up to her waist in a body of water, and there's a man with her with a book that's open and the man is weeping.
		And she's thinking, what does that mean?
		What is that supposed to be about?
		Well, a neighbor of hers goes to our church and she invited her to come to Easter services at our church because her husband was out of town.
		So she came to Easter services.
		She's sitting on the aisle in the auditorium waiting for the service to begin.
		And she sees the man who was with her in the pond with the book.
		And she says, That's the guy.
		He was one in my dream when I was in this pond for no reason whatsoever, but I saw him.
		Well, his name is Alan Spawn.
		Alan is our pastor of baptism.
		Alan comes over, they introduce her.
		This woman ends up receiving Jesus Christ as her forgiver and leader.
		She becomes a Christian, and she learns about baptism.
		And sure enough, Alan Spawn takes her to the pond on our property where we baptized new believers, and with her water up to her waist, and with Allen with the Bible open and weeping at the joy baptizes her in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
		So there's a case in my own church in Texas like that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What did her husband say when he got home?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't know to the church.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't know.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't know because she can't tell him.
		She said he would, he would, who knows what he would do.
		She can't, she can't, so she keeps, she has a Bible that we gave her.
		She keeps it hidden and she doesn't go to church because she can't.
		So she has to keep it hidden from her husband.
		Wow.
		It's sad.
		But again, she didn't do anything about baptism.?
		What kind of a mystical dream?
		You're standing up to your waist in water with a guy with a book who's crying.
		I mean, what in the world is that all about?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How do you tell a difference between a conventional dream and a mystical dream?
		Or are all dreams mystical?
		I don't know what dreams are, just for the record as a matter of science.
		I mean, no one has ever been able to explain what that is.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's interesting.
		God is in control of everything.
		And so in a sense, everything is spiritual, right?
		I mean, God rules and so forth.
		So in a sense, any dream is spiritual.
		I think to me, a mystical dream is one that has a strong spiritual undertones, and there's no natural explanation to say this could come from your subconscious mind.
		You know, I think sometimes people will write off a dream as saying, well, that's just something that came from your subconscious.
		Maybe you saw something on television, you didn't even realize it, and it was in your subconscious, and, and, but when you have examples like the one I gave, that doesn't make sense.
		I'll give you another example.
		There was a guy named Omar, and Omar grew up in a refugee camp in the Middle East, hated Jews, hated Jews.
		His life goal was to murder as many Jews as he could.
		And so he wanted to join Hamas.
		This is about a dozen years ago.
		He wanted to join Hamas.
		So he makes arrangements to meet with some leaders of Hamas.
		So he's walking down the road toward that meeting and he's blocked by a vision of Jesus who stops him and says, Omar, this is not the plan I have for your life.
		I want you to turn around, I want you to go home.
		This is not what I want for your life.
		Well, it freaks him out, right?
		And so what does he do?
		He turns around, he goes home.
		That afternoon he an American family was moving into the apartment across the hall.
		And he goes over there and he says, I just had this vision of Jesus telling me that and he explained the vision and he says, As a Christian, can you tell me what it means?
		And this Christian man said, Well, let me just do this and he opens the Bible and he shares the gospel with him.
		And Omar not only becomes a Christian, but today he himself is an underground church planter in the Middle East.
		Omar's not his real name, by the way.
		So there you have again external corroboration.
		The image, the vision he had.
		pointed him ultimately towards somebody else who then explained the gospel.
		That to me tells me this is more than a subconscious manifestation of something in our heads.
		Yes.
		And that's what as someone trained in journalism and law, I'm looking for those kinds of enthysis of corroboration.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Visions are something we associate with hallucinogenic drugs.
unidentified		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What are the visions produced by ayahuasca and LSD?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		There are what I would call naturalistic visions.
		In other words, visions that are caused byused by things that we can determine are natural, I mean natural, medically natural, in other words, chemicals.
		I'll give you an example.
		In 2011, I had a condition called hyponitremia.
		Hyponitremia is a severe drop in your blood sodium level.
		And it causes your brain to expand in your head.
		Well, there's no room for your brain to expand very much.
		And so you have hallucinations and almost died as a result of it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But just out of the blue you had this.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was a combination of several things I had.
		I was allergic to a drug that they had given me because I'd lost my voice and they gave me a steroid and I was allergic to the steroid.
		I didn't know I had pneumonia, which could be a factor.
		I had lost a kidney, which I wasn't aware of, and that regulates sodium.
		So I had all these weird things.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		This was the Job period.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it was a Job period.
		That's right.
		So here I am.
		I had hallucinations.
		I saw demons.
		I saw weird things.
		Do I believe they were from God?
		No.
		Do I believe they were from Satan?
unidentified		No.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Do I believe they were demons?
		No.
		I think they were a product of the medical problem I had of my sodium dropping so low.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How long did this go on and where were you when you saw these videos?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I was at home and I finally fell unconscious.
		They called the paramedics.
		I woke up in the emergency roomcy room and the doctor looked down at me and said, You're one step away from a coma, two steps away from dying.
		And then I went unconscious again.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That was the message the doctor gave me.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It was pretty reassuring.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I know.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		You think he could have sugarcoated it a little bit.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The last thing you heard was you're dying?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know.
		It's like, Hey, give me the E, give me the sugarcoated first.
		But the problem is they have to raise the sodium level very carefully because 25% of people with this condition end up mentally or physically disabled.
		So they have to raise it.
		So I was in hospital about a week and they had to gently, slowly raise One potato chip at a time?
		Exactly.
		So do I think those were mystical?
		Do I believe I really saw a demon?
		Probably not.
		I think that was a medically induced phenomenon.
		I don't have any external corroboration other than to say it was these low sodium that is known to cause hallucinations and I had hallucinations.
		So I think there are medical things that can cause that.
		There are drugs that can cause hallucinations.
		Now, God is over all, I get that.
		But as a skeptic, I'm always looking for those cases where we have evidence that it's true beyond the experience itself.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		There are certain forms of what we refer to as mental illness., which is like a phrase invented by people pretty recently.
		And clearly there are forms of mental illness, I think, I guess, whatever that is.
		But there are certain people who have visions that are very unpleasant.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And that bear like almost a precise resemblance to the demonic possession described in the New Testament.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And they may be demonic.
		I don't know.
		I have to evaluate each one to try to determine.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		These are broad brushes, but you do.
		Is it fair to conclude?
		that maybe not everything the shrink tells you is mental illness.
		They can never describe where it comes from or how to fix it.
		They have no idea.
		But whatever.
		They know nothing to be clear.
		But is it fair to assume that maybe some of that is spiritual?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think it can very well be.
		I would look at, you know, all of the factors involved.
		Where we have the external corroboration, like people left with scratches on them or bruises that cannot be explained, where we have levitation, where we have people speaking in a language they don't know, spontaneously speaking Latin, things like that.
		And is the external corroboration to me that there's something demonic going on?
		It doesn't mean it couldn't be demonic.
		I'm just saying those are the cases I'm more comfortable in concluding that they're demonic when I've got that kind of external corroboration.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But speaking in languages you don't know is also, can also be, is described as in the Acts of the Apostles as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God indwelling.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		There are other languages people speak, but not when they're spitting at clergy who are trying to exercise Oh, is that a sign?
		Yeah, that could be a sign.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		When you're cr trying to bite people.
		But what about glossolalia?
		What about speaking in tongues?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that is a spiritual gift.
		There are Christians who believe that those gifts have ended with the Apostolic Age and are no longer applicable.
		There are other Christians who believe they are still active in this world.
		I believe they are still active.
		I've met Christians who speak in other tongues and others who interpret that.
		So I believe it's a gift that still takes place.
		I haven't experienced that personally, but I have credible people who do and have experienced that.
		There are other Christians though who say no, no, no, that ended with the apostles.
		So that's one of those sig side issues, theologically, that when we get to heaven, we can raise our hands and ask God, Hey, what about that speaking in tongues thing?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I know that there's a debate over it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea what I think about it, but it is, I guess, just as a factual matter, it's true that there are people who, seized by some unseen force, begin speaking in languages they have never learned.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and often this is, generally, I would say, this is not a language that other people speak.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It is a or have I ever spoken it?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've ever spoken it's a spiritual language.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But then there's someone, and this is a good corroboration, someone who can interpret that, and they understand it, this language., even though it is a spiritual language, it's not Latin, it's not Greek, it's a spiritual language and that someone else is able to hear and they have a gift as well to interpret what is being said.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Hmm.
		I have to take you down one other back alley here really quick.
		So there, both the Hebrews and the early Christians wrote extensively about the concept of a name.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		God's name.
		Holy be your name.
		Yeah.
		In the name of God, in the name of Jesus.
		What does that mean exactly?
		What a name?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It means a couple of things.
		I mean, to do things in the name of God., Yahweh, in the name of God is to do something consistent with how God is leading you and how Scriptures would suggest that you act.
		So in other words, to act in God's name is to do something consistent with his character.
		So if I do something charitable to my personal loss and yet to someone else who is in great need, I do that in God's name.
		I do that because this is what the Bible teaches me that I should be generous and helpful toward people who are hurting.
		Right.
		Names, you know, names in Scripture, you know, you look at the nam name of Jesus, is called Emmanuel.
		Well, he's never called Emmanuel, he said it was his name.
		But what that means in the ancient language is that he's that he's God with us.
		That's what Emmanuel means, God with us.
		And that was the name given to Jesus, but that wasn't the name he was called, but it was a name that was associated with Jesus.
		So names have all kinds of implications in ancient Judaism and early Christianity.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Sure seems that way.
unidentified		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I mean, now we just name people according to what we see on Friends.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, you know, observant Jews don't spell out the name of God, right?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		They leave the vokals out because the name is itself holy, just the name.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's right.
		The name that's right.
		They would, and they would talk around the name.
		There's a verse in Luke 15 where it says that there is rejoicing in heaven.
		How does it go?
		Yeah, I can't think of the exact terminology, but basically it's a way of saying there's rejoicing in heaven whenever a person becomes a Christian, without saying the name of God rejoicing.
		It kind of talks around that a bit.
		So there's a hesitation and in fact something you didn't want to do in ancient Jewish world is to use the name of God that was forbidden.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Like at all.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you wouldn't use it, you would and you wouldn't spell it out.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		You talk around it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because it's so powerful.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		So holy.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It could hurt you.
		So near death experiences.
		Walk toward the lightly.
		What is a near death experience?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		A near death experience is when a person is clinically dead.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That is, generally, no brain waves, no respiration, no heartbeat.
unidentified		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're clinically dead.
		Yet They're going to be revived.
		And so they're dead for a period of time, clinically dead, but they're not permanently dead.
		So the body will be revived at some point.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So by the measurements of science, they're dead.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And so maybe right there, if we just pause, like maybe right there, we have further evidence that science while useful, of course, and life improving in some ways, does not have the tools to measure the totality of the experience.
unidentified		Well, you know, it's So they're actually like, that's the failure.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Like they're obviously not dead.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		They are coming back.
		That's right.
		All the signs are that they're dead.
		But, you know, the Bible says they that in Christianity teaches that when a person dies, their spirit separates from their body.
		And this is what we see in a near death experience.
		This is evidence for the soul, for the spirit.
		So the physical body is clinically dead.
		There's no sign of life in the body.
		They're still working on you.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Has once again, has there ever been a culture that we're aware of in the entire span of human history that did not believe in the soul?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		They all did.
		They thought that people were just meat puppets and I quote experts in the book that talk about that, that there has every civilization believed in the spirit, a spirit, a soul.
		We have a spirit, a soul that continues to live on after we die.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Our leaders don't believe that.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's not only tragic, it's dangerous because if you if you believe we are only our brain, we're only neurons that are firing, that means technically we have no free will.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And seriously, you're saying we don't have free, how do you punish someone for doing something wrong if they really didn't have free will?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It also means we have no inherent rights.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		We have no right and wrong.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Does a rock have a right?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So maybe that should be the acid test for leadership.
		If you don't believe human beings have souls.
		That's not the basis of the way you understand other people is a separate person with a distinct and unique soul.
		If you don't believe that, you can have no power in our society.
		Is that fair?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I like that.
		I like that.
		I never thought of that before, but I certainly wouldn't trust a person personally, morally, if they believe only that we are a person.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I wouldn't give them a driver's license.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That's scary.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It is scary.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You don't think other people have souls?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You're a psychopath?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		I have an interview in my book with a PhD from Cambridge University on neuroscience, who says the evidence is so persuasive that yes, indeed, we do have a soul.
		We do have a spirit.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Nervous.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Nervous.
unidentified		Thank you for confirming.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		What's interesting is that we have cases where people are clinically dead, their spirit separates from their body, and they see or hear things that would have been impossible for them to see or hear if their spirit had not actually separated from their body.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		So this is confirmation that the soul exists.
unidentified		Interesting.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And let me give you some examples.
		There was a woman named Maria.
		She was dying in a hospital in London, England.
		But she said, I was conscious the whole time.
		And so here they are working on her body trying to bring her back.
		She said, My spirit floated out of my body.
		I met a divine being.
		But mainly I'm looking down from the ceiling of the hospital room at the resuscitation efforts.
		I'm watching them trying to revive my body.
		And then at some point the reviving works and the spirit returns to the body.
		And she says, By the way, see the ceiling fan here in this room, the hospital room?
		There's a red sticker on top of one of the blades of the ceiling fan.
		Now you couldn't see it from the room because it's on the top of one of the blades of the ceiling fan.
		But she saw it because from her perspective near the ceiling watching resuscitation, she was looking down.
		So they got a ladder.
		They went up there.
		Sure enough, on the top of this blade, here's the sticker exactly as she has described it.
		That tells me that she really did have an out of-body experience just as the Bible describes.
		And this is extremely common.
		We have a woman, a young girl.
		She was nine years old, so I recall eight or nine.
		She drowned in a swimming pool at YMCA.
		Horrible, horrible.
		Her brain had swelled.
		She had no respiration, No heartbeat.
		She was clinically dead.
		So they brought her to the hospital to keep her body alive mechanically until they decided what to do, you know.
		And they continued to try to revive her.
		But as it turned out, three days later, she was revived and with no brain damage.
		And she said, By the way, I was.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Seriously?
unidentified		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And she said, I was conscious the whole time.
		And they said, Well, that's not possible.
		And so the doctors, who were skeptical, said, Here, here's a piece of paper and a crayon.
		Why don't you draw the emergency room where we took you when you were dead?
		So she picked up the crayon.
		She draws the emergency room exactly as it appears..
		And then she said, By the way, one night when my parents visited me in the hospital, I followed them home.
		And I watched as my mom, she was making chicken soup with rice on the stove.
		And my dad was sitting in a certain chair and he was looking in a certain direction, and her brother, she said, was playing with a GIO Joe Jeep in his bedroom, and these are the clothes that they were wearing.
		Everything was exactly correct.
		How do you explain that if she didn't have an authentic out of body experience while she was clinically dead?
		So this is affirmation that near death experiences do point toward a spirit, a soul that separates from our body at the time of death.
		Now it can return to our body if we're revived, and that's what happens in these cases.
		Interestingly, there was a study done of twenty one blind people, either blind since birth or shortly thereafter.
		They were able to see or had visual like perceptions during their near death experiences.
		So there's a woman named Vicki.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Wait, what?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Vicki Umapeg, twenty six years old.
		She's a passenger in a car, she's killed.
		But she said later, I was conscious the whole time.
		And her spirits floated out.
		She watched the resurrection.
		She was able to see the resuscitation efforts.
		She was able to see childhood friends whom she had never seen in person, but she knew intuitively who they were.
		Oh, that's Mary.
		That's Jimmy.
		She sees birds for the first time.
		She sees trees and so forth.
		And then when her body is revived and her spirit returns to her body, she's blind again.
		Medical researchers said, This is impossible based on current medical knowledge.
		How does this happen?
		So there's a phenomenon here that tells me that there's corroboration, that there's something to this idea that we have a soul, a spirit that is different than our physical brain and body.
		And I'll add this, this is really important.
		John Burke is I interview him for my book.
		John Burke is a Christian pastor who with an engineering degree and science background who studied 1500 cases of near-death experiences in depth.
		He has video interviews with people and so forth.
		And here's his conclusion.
		He said, Lee, if you look at not how people interpret what happens, because we all interpret things for our worldview.
unidentified		Of course.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		If you're a Muslim, if you're a Hindu, you're going to interpret things differently.
		Forget that.
		Set that aside.
		Just look at what actually takes place during a typical near-death experience that is consistent with the Christian Bible.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And what is it that's consistent?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, things like encountering a divine being, things like encountering people who had preceded you in death, things like a life review where your life is reviewed and you.
		And you not only experience with this divine figure next to you who's encouraging you, it's not a judgmental kind of way, it's you're judging yourself, you're reviewing every little action you took, but you're able for the first time to see the ripple effects of that.
		So I may have done something that hurt you years ago, and I never realized the impact that had on you and how that caused you to do this, that and the other thing.
		And yet in this life review, you see not only what you did, and you did good and you did bad, but the ramifications of it.
		Now, You're not permanently dead.
		The Bible says in Hebrews, we're appointed once to die and then the judgment.
		So you would think that, biblically speaking, you would die and then you would encounter judgment.
		Well, you're not permanently dead.
		You're coming back.
		This is not your permanent death.
		So this is kind of a taste, a foretaste of what death is like, but you're not permanently dead.
		You're just clinically dead.
		But you still have some of the attributes of what the Bible talks about in terms of a judgment.
		So I think that's reassuring for Christians like me who used to think, Oh, that's new age stuff, near death experience.
		That's weird.
		There have been, Tucker, 900 scholarly articles written about near death experiences in medical journals and scientific journals over the last 50 years.
		This is a very well researched area.
		And they have concluded that there is no natural explanation that can account for all of the aspects of a near death experience.
		It's a fascinating area.
		And so I interview, as I said, John Burke, who's an expert on them, to give examples of this sort of thing.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What about pre death vision?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, this is this is this is new.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Can I just add one editorial comment?
		Yeah.
		I'm so filled with rage I have to do it that our culture systematically excludes conversation, real conversations about death.
		Obviously we're very pro death, you know, kill your baby, euthanize your parents, whatever.
		We're all about death.
		But the actual experience of death is kind of cloaked for most people, and I don't think they have any idea what it is when someone dies in the process of dying.
		And so this is a welcome conversation.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Tucker, it's fascinating, these death bed visions.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		The difference between a near death experience and a death bed vision is in a near death experience, a person is going to come back.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		In a death bed vision.
		Death Bed Vision, this is a vision someone has just before they die.
		They're not coming back.
		I mean, they're permanently going to die.
		But we see a biblical example of this in the book of Acts.
		We see Stephen, who is described as being full of the Holy Spirit, who is on the verge of being stoned to death, and he looks up and he sees the heavens open up and he sees the Father and the Son together.
		So this has a biblical precedent.
		But what is fascinating, and I think what you said is so true, people don't like to talk about it because if you have one of these experiences before you die, you think they're going to think I'm, I'm got dementia.
		They're going to think, you know, so a lot of people don't like to talk about it.
		So there's a researcher.
		He went to a huge hospice facility in New York State and they went to all the dying people and they said, please, as a favor, if you have a vision, a dream unlike any you've ever had, tell us.
		Would you tell us?
		And so 88% of those dying people had a pre-death vision that they reported on before they died.
		88% I think the other 12% probably had one, but they died before they were able to say anything.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Or they were so high in morphine that they couldn't talk.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
		They get people droughed up.
		That's true.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So there's that.
		I mean, obviously, you don't want people to suffer.
		You want to alleviate suffering and alleviate pain.
		I'm totally for that.
		I'm, you know, want to be clear about it.
		But there's also this custom, which has grown to ubiquity.
		Now it's just, it's everyone who dies gets from the hospice nurses.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		They kill you with morphine.
		I mean, no one wants to say that out loud, but I've seen it.
		They kill you with morphine.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And okay, first we should just be honest about what's happening.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Always.
		But second, we should be clear about the cost.
		So if people, if.
		Yes.
		Everyone on the way out is getting visions of some kind.
unidentified		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Maybe there's a purpose to that vision.
		Exactly.
		Maybe we shouldn't short circuit that.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And talk about maybe.
		There's also corroboration for these.
		So in other words, they did one study of three thousand of these and they determined this is not just something coming from the subconscious mind, there is something else here.
		And I'll give you the example of the corroboration.
		There was a woman named Doris.
		She's dying on her death bed and she has a predeath vision and she sees the heavens open up and she sees angelic beings and she sees her father who had died several years earlier.
		And he's kind of almost welcoming her to the next realm.
		But then she gets this confused look on her face and she says, Wait a minute, why is Vida with my father?
		Why would Vida be there?
		Makes no sense.
		Why would Vida be there?
		And then she died.
		Vida was her sister.
		Her sister had died two weeks earlier, but no one had told Doris because she was so ill they didn't want the news to kill her.
		So they withheld the news that her sister Vida had died, and yet on her deathbed she sees Vida in the world to come.
		That is fairly common.
		It actually happened with my father in law.
		So that to me is a corroboration.
		Another form of corroboration, get this, in the Bible in Luke 16, there's a story of a rich man and a beggar who both die.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And the rich man goes to a place of torment.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And the beggar goes to a place of bliss.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The rich man, by the way, has walked past the poor man every day.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And ignored him.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And ignored him.
		So the beggar, according to Jesus in verse 22, is accompanied by angels to heaven.
		That angels accompany him to heaven.
		And what's particularly fascinating is people who have predeath visions often see angels coming for them.
		Just as Jesus suggested in that parable.
		So, for instance, the most famous skeptic in Canada, Charles Templeton.
		Charles Templeton was the pulpit partner of Billy Graham.
		He was going to be the great evangelist, but then he went to a liberal seminary.
		He lost his faith.
		He wrote an ugly book called Farewell to God, My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith.
		And I got to know him.
		He became a friend.
		I actually wrote a book called The Case for Faith, where I answered all his objections to Christianity, and we became friends.
		Anyway, he ended up coming back to faith in Christ before he died.
		And then he's on his deathath bed and he calls out to his wife, Madeline.
		Madeline, what, what, Chuck?
		Can you see them?
		What are you talking about?
		They're in the room.
		You can't see them.
		They're right here in this room.
		They're the angels.
		They're coming for me.
		Oh, they're so beautiful.
		Look at them.
		The singing is so beautiful.
		They're coming for me.
		I'm going to heaven.
		I'm going to be with God.
		That is incredibly common that people will see angels coming for them in that vision they had before they died.
		Now, here's another bit of corroboration.
		Children who are dying will see angels, but not let's say a five year old who's dying.
		What is their image of an angel?
		Well, it's a furry thing with or feathery thing with big wings, right?
		It's a cartoon, right?
		It's a cartoon.
		They all have big wings.
		And so there's a case from a doctoral dissertation I read of a little girl who's dying, and she says, Mommy, Mommy, can you see the angels?
		They're coming for me.
		Oh, they're so beautiful.
		They're so beautiful.
		Their eyes.
		Look at their eyes.
		And the mother didn't want to disappoint her, so she said, Oh yeah, yeah, I see them.
		Look at their big wings.
		And the little girl said, Oh, Mommy, they don't have wings.
		And she was able to describe them in vivid detail before she died.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		You would think if a child of that age was going to have just a vision from their imagination of angels coming for them, they would have big wings.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		They don't.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		In the Hallmark version, yes.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's right, and in case after case, they don't see the big wings.
		And by the way, the Bible doesn't say that all angels have wings.
		So that, for me, is another very interesting dynamic of these pre death visions.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Not all people on their death bed have joyful visions of being reunited with loved ones in the next world.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		There are many people who are in terror.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And horrified.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And can you describe that and what is it?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		We have this in near death experiences and in death bed visions where people who are about to die have a glimpse, I believe, of a hellish experience to come.
		And they are frightened beyond belief and scared beyond words.
		I'll give you an example of a near death vision where this happened.
		There's a man named Howard Storm.
		Howard was an atheist.
		He was a professor of art at a secular university, chairman of the art department.
		And he was visiting France and he died of a heart attack.
		So here he is, he's in a French hospital, he's dead.
		But he said later, I was conscious the whole time.
		It was a near death experience.
		His spirit had separated from his body.
		And there were some people in the hallway saying, Howard, we've been waiting for you.
		Come with us.
		Come with us.
		So he does.
		And he's he's walking down the hallway.
		His spirit is walking down the hallway with these people.
		And it goes on and on and on.
		And it gets darker and darker.
		And then they're becoming abusive.
		And they're saying, come on, come on.
		Why are you so slow?
		And then they start to attack him.
		And he said, he said, they, he said, no horror movie can ever capture the horror of this horror.
		of what they did to me.
		I mean, he was absolutely mauled.
		He said I was road killed.
		And he said, I called out to God.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Like physically mauled.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes, eyes gouged out, ears ripped off.
		It just horror.
		And he calls out to Jesus, Jesus, rescue me.
		And this white orb comes and brings him and rescues him from that, and he is restored.
		Well, ultimately, his body is revived, his spirit returns to his body.
		This is such a profound experience that he not only renounced his atheism, he not only quit his tenured position as chairman of the art department at a secular university.
		He not only became a Christian, he went to seminary, he became a pastor, and today he's a pastor of this little church, I think it's in Kentucky or Oklahoma or somewhere in the middle of nowhere serving God.
		That's how transformative this experience was.
		But there are multiple cases of people having horrific.
		In fact, one study of near death experiences said it was 24 percent had negative experiences and not positive.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't feel like a good sign.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		I mean, what it does to me is its affirmation that, you know what, what the Bible tells us is it's true.
		There is a heaven, there is a hell.
unidentified		And every society ever has thought that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Every society.
		And I think everyone intuitively knows that.
		I've never had a near death experience, but the one time I thought I was going to die many years ago was in a plane crash.
		I was filled with sadness.
		I had no peace at all.
		None.
		Only regret.
		So I did take that as an indication I should change the way I was living and I did.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But God used that in your life.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, I felt that way.
		And certainly in retrospect, I think that.
		But I remember thinking, wow, I'm going to die.
		I was certain of it.
		And then I thought later, I thought that when people knew they were going to die, they were filled with like peace and warmth and walked toward the light.
		That was not my experience at all.
		It was like, man, I can't believe I did a few things.
		And I've really felt sad about it.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		So, well, that's the reality.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, but I guess it's, yeah, well, it was the reality that I experienced for sure.
		But I also think that it's what a blessing.
		Yes.
		To have an opportunity to, you know, to turn back and change.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's the thing about these near death experiences that you have another chance.
		You don't have it in Deathbed Vision, but you're going to be revived and then you have a choice to make.
		Is that the road I continue to want to go down?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The first thing I did was stop drinking and then had a fourth child.
		Wow, it's awesome.
		It was awesome.
		It was literally awesome.
		So, yeah.
		So I think that there's something real there and it does seem like a crime of some kind to deprive people of that with drugs.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I know.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If everyone experiences it just like anything else, like maybe there's a reason.
		Yeah.
		Yeah, it's not random.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
		You know, I'd encourage people who are watching or listening to this podcast, next time you have a big family family gathering with the cousins and the uncles and the aunts and all of them, ask people, do we have any family stories about death bed visions or near death experiences?
		I bet you you'll find, Oh, uncles Bob had that experience or cousins Jim had that experience.
		I was having dinner with seven people in Oklahoma City and four of them, we talked about this, four of them had relatives who had pre death visions.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I'm not surprised.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's incredibly common.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I've never asked that question at a dinner party, but I have asked, has anyone seen a ghost?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		100% of the time there's someone at the table who has.
		Yeah.
		100%.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Ghosts, I have a chapter on ghosts and psychics in my book.
		The technical definition of a ghost is someone who dies but refuses to go into the afterlife.
		Their spirit refuses to go into the next life.
		I don't see that in the Bible.
		So I don't think that ghosts per se are from God.
		I think most likely an apparition that we interpret as being ghost is most like a demonic apparition.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I think people feel that.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		They feel like they just have a bad reputation.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No one is summoning ghosts.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's not like Casper who's going to bring you some flowers.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Generally, people are anti-ghosts.
		Yes.
		Ghost stories.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Ghosted.
		Yeah.
		That's not a good connotation.
		So I don't think that surprises anyone.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		So I do talk about ghosts and I talk about psychics and the tricks that they use to convince people that they're Pro psychic?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You pro psychic?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I'm anti psychic.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I am too.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why are you anti psychic?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Because the Bible says, do not consult mediums.
		Do not consult psychics.
		I mean, it's very clear, multiple places in Scripture, do not do it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it well, among the ancient Hebrews, that was a death penalty offense.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Exactly it was.
		And so you just, it's not just, it's not something we want to mess with.
		And I think there's got to be a reason for that.
		I think it's because it opens a door to the demonic, that you're trying to consult the dead.
		You're trying to, you're trying to find out something apart from what God might reveal through a psychic, through a medium who supposedly has occult wherewithal and is able to take you down that path.
		It's dangerous.
		And I talk in the book about the tricks that they use to, you know, there's things like cold readings and warm readings and hot readings where people who want to fool you into thinking they know more about you than they do will employ that.
		And they think, oh my gosh., this person knows everything about me.
		No, they don't.
		They're just very clever people who are able to read certain things about you.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, there are, of course, there's a lot of BS Gypsy tricks.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But I'll tell you one case.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It's also true in the Bible that, at least in my reading of it, that they're taken seriously.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are cases.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That's why it's a death penalty offense, not because it's fake, because it's real.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Because it can be real.
		And yeah, that's a good way to argue it.
		There is a case in contemporary times when President Carter was president and a two engine aircraft went down and crashed in Africa.
		And the United States government was trying to find it.
		I don't know why, but they wanted to find that aircraft.
		And they had satellites repositioned looking for it.
		They could not find the wreckage of this airplane.
		And so the Stansfield Turner, who was the head of the CIA, consulted a medium, a psychic in California.
		She went into a trance and she gave the longitude and latitude of where to find the plane.
		They went, they reoriented the satellites, and boom, there was a wreckage of the plane just as she had said.
		What do you do with that?
		That tells me she was in connection with something there.
		Now, if the Bible says, Don't be connecting with psychics, don't be, it was probably demonic.
		And why would she do that?
		Because now she's got credibility.
		Now, the next time they want to know something, let's go to that woman in California, told us where that plane was.
		She seems to have these abilities to know the future, to know things that we don't know, and now she has credibility.
		I think that was a way for Satan to give her credibility so that we'd be fooled into thinking into the future to take advantage of her psychicity.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, best not to play with that stuff.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's best to stay away from that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So, contacting dead relatives through a medium, Ouija boards, all that stuff, scary bad.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		On the other hand, I mean, that's my position.
		Yeah.
		I'm sure it's yours.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I came to that position through experience, not just guessing.
		It's bad.
		However, I know a lot of decent, God fearing people who have said, well, I really feel like I was contacted by a dead relative, a dead loved one.
unidentified		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		That's an interesting and I have a couple of cases I talk about in the book of that that seemingly are corroborated.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		What do you do with that?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because, well, how is that inconsistent with your theology?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		On the one hand, there are a couple of cases in Scripture where the dead have come back like that.
		Elijah came back.
		back at the the the the transfiguration.
		Yeah.
		So there's an example of a dead person coming back.
		There's the other example of in the Old Testament of a going to a medium and a dead person coming back, not because of the power of the medium, because she was surprised it happened, but through the power of God, he allowed that dead person to come back.
		So there are a couple of perhaps precedents in Scripture of dead people coming back.
		One of the reasons I'm skeptical is because when Jesus was talking about in Luke 16 about the rich man who died and the beggar who died, he talked about a gulf between the living and the dead.
		That concerns me.
		So that raises some questions in my mind.
		I think the transfiguration and the incident with what's called the medium of Endor in the Old Testament may be one off.
		And those are unusual circumstances.
		So I'm Tucker, I'm not quite sure what to do with it because I talk about a couple of cases in the book where a dead relative returns and a person talks to that relative and then they disappear and then their child comes in, eight year old child says, I just saw grandpa.
		Grandpa, I just talked to him.
		So he experienced the same vision.
		Well, that's pretty weird.
		Yeah.
		Is that corroboration and so forth?
		Well, here's my concern.
		So many times people have contact with these dead people.
		These are people that lived ungodly lives, and yet they say everything's fine.
		I'm fine, everything's good.
		Just take care of the family, tell everybody I love them, I'm good, don't worry about me.
		That's the general message people get.
		Well, what does that say to someone who is thinking about what do I need to do to live a life that will bring me to heaven and to God?
		Well, Uncle Tom came and told me he's fine.
		He was an adulterer and he never came to faith in Jesus.
		He's a bad guy.
		And yet he says he's fine in the afterlife.
		Wouldn't that be something that a demon might want to imitate to send a false message?
		I think maybe.
		So I guess I'm giving you two answers.
		One is there is some biblical precedent for a dead coming back, but I think they may be one offs.
		I'm not sure.
		I think there'd be a good motive for Satan to counterfeit that.
		You know, it says Satan can appear as a as an angel of light, as a counterfeit, he can fool us into thinking he's something he's not.
		Would that be to his advantage to do, to mislead people?
		I think it could be.
		So I'm not quite sure where I'm at.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Are UFOs what we call UFO's spiritual entities?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I didn't get into UFOs in the book.
		It's a fascinating topic.
		Maybe I'll do another book on that.
		So I didn't research it thoroughly.
		Having said that, though, it would not be an affront to my faith if indeed we found intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
		The Bible doesn't say that we are are unique in that we No, it doesn't.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But, but I wonder, could they be spiritual is a question.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it could be.
		It could be, yes.
		Is it?
		I don't know.
		I am, I'm just not as knowledgeable on that to be able to give a strong opinion.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Last question, miracles.
		Yeah.
		What is a miracle?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		A miracle is an event brought about by the power of God that is a temporary exception to the ordinary course of nature for the purpose of showing that God has acted in history.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, a lot of people skeptical.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That's a nice definition.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		That's from Robert Pertill, who is a philosopher.
		He, he, uh, I thought that was the best definition I'd heard.
		Here's the problem.
		A lot of skeptics will say, I don't believe in miracles because you can't violate the laws of nature.
		So by definition, a miracle is impossible.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		We haven't even settled on the laws of nature.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		They're so dumb.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But here's how I am.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You don't even like the laws of nature.
		Really?
		Science every day challenges the laws of nature.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And especially with quantum physics and theories.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But I say, look, I have this glass of water here.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		If I were to drop it, the law of gravity would say it would hit the floor.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		But if I drop it and you reach in and grab it before it hit the floor, you're not violating the the law of gravity.
		You're not overturning the law of gravity.
		You're just intervening.
		And that's what a miracle is, is God intervening temporarily into his creation.
		He brought it about.
		So of course he could intervene.
		And man.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But again, our understanding of nature and its laws changes every day.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And it's so shallow.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's so shallow what we know.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I mean, our, I mean, our view of what is natural is different now from what it was five years ago.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And what it will be five years from now.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So that's just the silliness and the shallowness of claims like that kind of shocked me.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It does.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So miracles, but you know, to the extent we can know, like, this is so unusual, like, this couldn't have happened actually.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Can I give you an example?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, please do.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And this one I personally investigated and has been widely documented.
		A woman named Barbara, she was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic, where we got all those records with multiple sclerosis as a teenager.
		And it was progressive.
		She started, she got worse very quickly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		So she just got worse and worse and worse, multiple hospitalizations to the point where the doctor said, look, and her parents said, look, next time she gets pneumonia, which she would get on a regular basis.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		We're just going to let her die.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Let her go, yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Because we're just postponing the inevitable.
		So here she is on her death bed.
		She hadn't walked in seven years, so her muscles had atrophied.
		Her fingers were, she was curled up like a pretzel.
		Her fingers were touching her wrists.
		Her feet were permanently extended.
		Her diaphragm was, one diaphragm was paralyzed.
		So one lung was collapsed.
		The other lung was half full.
		She had a tube in her throat that went to oxygen canisters in the garage.
		She was in hospice at home, so she could breathe.
		So she got a tube in her throat.
		She had lost her urination and bowels and control of those.
		She lost her eyesight, so all she saw was gray shapes.
		And she's on her deathbed.
		She's dying.
		Well, some people said, wait a minute, let's call WMBI, the Christian radio station at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, and ask people on the radio show to pray for poor Barbara.
		She's dying.
		So they did.
		Well, we documented that at least four hundred fifty people began praying for Barbara because they wrote letters to Barbara saying, I'm praying for you and to encourage her.
		So here we are on Pentecost Sunday, nineteen eighty one.
		She is in her bedroom and her aunt and two girlfriends are reading her some of these encouraging letters from people praying for her.
		And from the corner of the room where nobody was, she heard the voice of God.
		And the voice said, My child, get up and walk.
		Well, she hadn't walked in seven years.
		She had no muscle tone in her legs.
		She pulled out the tube so she could talk and she said, I don't know what you're going to think of this, but God just told me to get up and walk.
		Go find my parents.
		I want them to be here.
		So they ran out, but she couldn't wait.
		She jumped out of bed.
		She told me, she said, Lee, the first thing I noticed, my feet were flat on the floor.
		And they hadn't been flat for years.
		They've been rigidly extended, but they were flat on the flo floor.
		Second thing I noticed, my hands had opened up like flowers.
		And they hadn't opened up in years.
		And then she said the third thing I noticed, I could see.
		She said, Wouldn't you think that'd be the first thing I noticed?
		It was actually the third thing I noticed.
		She was instantaneously completely healed of multiple sclerosis.
		Her mother came running in, fell to her knees, and grabbed her calves and said, Your muscle tone has come back.
		It was Pentecost Sunday.
		There was a service at their church, Wheaton Wesleyan Church.
		They went, they decided to go and thank God that she was fine.
		She's dancing, literally dancing around the house with her.
		They're in the back.
		The pastor gets up and says, Does anyone have any announcements?
		Barbara comes walking down the center aisle.
		People freaked out because they haven't seen her except in a wheelchair for seven years.
		They began singing spontaneously.
		Amazing grace.
		I once was blind and now I see.
		Totally healed.
		She goes the next day to her doctor, one of her doctors.
		He said later, he said, I saw her walking down the hallway toward my office.
		My first thought was, Oh, she died and that's a ghost.
		He said, This is medically impossisible.
		She was instantaneously totally healed of multiple sclerosis.
		She ended up marrying a pastor, that little Wesleyan church in Fredericksburg, Virginia.
		And I got to know her sweetest woman.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Is she still alive?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		She just recently, this happened in 1981, lived perfectly healthy all these years.
		She just died in Florida.
		They just retired, just a few months ago.
		So she finally, but not completely healed.
unidentified		And so, okay, that's a What do you do with that?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		What do you do with that?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a challenge to like the most basic understanding of everything.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So, if she's on her death bed from MS, which is a well studied disease.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You know, like you would think that, you know, Harvard Medical School would just like see his operations until they figured out what that was.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		You know, I mentioned it to my doctor.
		I said, I told him the story.
		He said, it'd be interesting to know because there's plaque that that develops in the brain in multiple sclerosis.
		It'd be interesting to know, did that plaque disappear?
		And I said, what is the greater miracle that the plaque would disappear or that God would totally heal her with the plaque still there?
		I don't know which are greater miracles.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But was her, I guess my question is, was how could we in a advanced country allow a case like that?.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		To go unnoticed.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And unstudied.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		It was the next day.
		It was in the Chicago Tribune, which most newspapers don't cover stuff like that.
		I mean, it's too speculative.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But did she get, yeah, but that's not speculative.
unidentified		No.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I mean, so she's a team of physicians saying it's time for her to go and she's dancing and singing Amazing Grace and bringing them past her.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So like, but were doctors calling in to say, I want to study this case?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		There are two doctors who wrote books about it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Wrote books about it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, they wrote books and in the books they talked about her case.
		Yes.
		So two of her physicians actually wrote about it in their books.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That's incredible.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I know.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I know.
		And it's not the only one.
		I don't know, we don't have much time.
		Give you a real quick one.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		There's a kid who was born, little baby, kept vomiting, couldn't keep down food, kept vomiting, vomiting.
		And they realized this baby has what's called gastroparesis, which is a paralysis of the stomach.
		It's an incurable condition.
		It happens from time to time.
		You can't, you can't live that way.
		No.
		So they operated and they put tubes in so the food would go directly into the thin intestine.
		I don't know if it went through the stomach that was paralyzed or whatever, but that way it's able, he was able to live.
		And he lived that way un.
		There were restrictions on what he could eat.
		It was uncomfortable, but at least he was alive, right?
		They bring him one day to a church and they asked the pastor, would you pray for him?
		The pastor puts his hand on his shoulder, begins to pray, and the kid said later, I felt an electric shock go through me at the time he was praying, and he was instantly healed of gastroparesis.
		There has never been a documented case of anyone ever healed of gastroparesis, a paralyzed stomach.
		He was totally normal.
		They went in, they took the tubes out, and today he's totally healthy., he's a business guy, doing great.
		I just emailed with him the other day.
		That again, this was researched by multiple medical researchers and published as a case study in a medical journal.
		And in the medical journal, it's probably like, here's what happened.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So, that's an incredible story.
		The girl being cured of MS is an incredible story.
		Everything you've said is amazing.
		But so many of the things you've said are also instantly recognizable to everyone listening, whatever their religious faith or lack of religious faith, as things that do happen actually.
		It's real.
		We all know that there are things that happen to us and people we know well and love that are outside the ability of science to explain.
		Guys, they're so like.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So my final question to you, Lee Strobel, and this has been amazing, thank you.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my pleasure.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Is why do we keep ignoring it?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		I think it goes back to what I said earlier.
		I think we're embarrassed sometimes by the supernatural that we're going to think, people are going to think we're nuts.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But if that's real, and it clearly is real, then like it puts everything else into perspective.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		When you take it seriously and when you look at it like, why could you not take it seriously?
		Well, I agree.
		you grow up in a culture that tells you nothing of it's real, and yet it's super obvious that it is super obvious that it's real in some most general sense.
unidentified		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That the supernatural is real.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Then why don't people talk about it all the time?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I think the fact that I've been a Christian since November 8, 1981, and I've never heard a sermon on the topic of angels in my life tells you something.
		I think we shy away because we want to be accepted as normal.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I don't know why you get out of bed on Sunday to sit in a church where they're like pretending that nothing they say is true.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		It's a good point.
unidentified		If we believe if we If it's not so supernatural, like why are you bothering us?
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		If you believe in Jesus, you have to believe in angels, you have to believe in demons, you have to believe in Satan, you have to believe in heaven, you have to believe in hell, because if you believe in Jesus, he taught on all those things.
		So, my goodness, how could you not?
		I agree with you.
		How could you not?
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I mean, go on, move on to something else.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Go play tennis or something.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		And if forty percent of Americans have had an experience that they can only attribute to a miracle of God, that means the other sixty percent.
		probably know one of those forty percent, right?
		And oh, my brother had this experience, my cousin had it.
		And we kind of say, what do we do with that?
		And I think what we ought to do is look for that which is corroborated and which is consistent with what we trust to be true, which for me are the Christian scriptures.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If you just fight against distraction, consistently for just a day or two, like I'm not going to be distracted, I'm just going to notice, that's it, that's all you do is that as an exercise literally for 48 hours, you will experience the supernatural.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		I think you're right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It's hard to do that.
unidentified		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Lease Trouble, thank you.
lee strobel ▲ ● ▼		Hey, I enjoy it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful.
unidentified		Great to meet you.
unidentified		Thank you.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So it turns out that YouTube is suppressing this show.
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		And that is totally wrong.
		It's immoral.
		What can you do about it?
		Well, we could whine about it.
		That's a waste of time.
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