The Tucker Carlson Show - Jeremiah Johnston: Shroud of Turin, Dead Sea Scrolls, & Attempts to Hide Historical Proof of Jesus

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Aug. 8, 2025 - The Tucker Carlson Show

01:33:23

Jeremiah Johnston: Shroud of Turin, Dead Sea Scrolls, & Attempts to Hide Historical Proof of Jesus

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jeremiah johnston

01:11:00

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21:01

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tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is the Shroud of Turin?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		The Shroud of Turin is believed to be the actual burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's a very unique artifact because we get in this singular artifact the death, burial, and resurrection of the historical Jesus, and no other artifact does that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is a burial cloth?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		A shroud, which is mentioned in all four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, is simply burial clothes.
		It's a linen garment that a corpse is wrapped in.
		And in the Jewish tradition, similar to a pita, how a pita, if you get a pita, it's a pita of bread.
		Yeah, literally.
		It just wraps from over your feet, over your feet over the head and then back around the front of the feet as well.
		And that is laid, that's when the body is laid to rest within the burial shroud.
unidentified		that's a shroud.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So you believe that this piece of cloth, which is represented right there, is that life, is that the actual life?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's one to one.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		14 feet 4 inches by 3 feet 7 inches or 8.8 by 2 Assyrian cubits, which was the standard unit of measurement in the Roman Empire.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so that, so the first fact we can ascertain is that this would have been, these would have been the dimensions of a burial shroud.
unidentified		Correct.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		In that period.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		In the first century in antiquity.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Is it a continuously woven piece of cloth?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's a piece of cloth?
		It is.
		Pure linen.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Pure linen.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is linen?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's a herringbone weave.
		It's made from the flax plant, and this has a unique herringbone weave.
		The only reason I know what herringbone is is my wife has a herringbone backsplash in our home that was very expensive.
		So it has this amazing three to one herringbone weave, which is indicative that a wealthy man would have purchased this actual burial garment in his own pre death planning.
		And that's exactly what we see is consistent in the resurrection traditions embedded in the gospels.
		Joseph of Arimathea gives Jesus not only his own family tomb, a new tomb, hewn in stone, but he actually gives him his own burial cloth as well.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and it says that in the gospels.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		All four.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying that this cloth was a burial cloth.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		represented right here, one to one, covered Jesus' body.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		The historical Jesus, and it's not a death cloth, I actually believe it's a resurrection cloth.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Resurrection cloth.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		What's fascinating is this cloth is unique.
		We have hundreds of burial shrouds from the land of Israel, we have hundreds of them from Qumran, we have them from all over antiquity, really.
		But what's unique about this burial cloth, Tucker, is that it has embedded in it the image of a crucified man that has complete correspondence with what we know of crucifixion in the Roman Empire, specifically as it relates to Jesus of Nazareth.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How do we have hundreds of burial cloths from that?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, it turns out that Jewish burial traditions were an extremely serious matter that even Josephus says that the Romans were sensitive to Jewish burial traditions.
		And so we have Josephus is a Jewish historian.
		Jewish historian of the first century, exactly.
		And so when these tombs have been excavated, not only are oshuaries found, which are bone boxes that have generations of family bones in them, there are also burial shrouds that have been found both in Jerusalem and in Masada and other places around the land of Israel.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The climate being dry enough to prove that.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, absolutely.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		For thousands of years.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Thousands of years.
		In fact, we have people saying, well, the shroud of Turin, it couldn't be Jesusus's.
		You're saying it's two thousand years old.
		We actually have linen garments that are much older.
		They antedate the shroud by three thousand years.
		We have the Tarkan dress from Egypt.
		You can google it, and it's a beautiful linen blouse and it's five thousand years old.
		So given the right circumstances, linen will last forever.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Amazing.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		So it's not a chakra that we have burial clothes from antiquity.
		It's not a chakra that we have pure linen burial clothes.
		The chakra is the image that's embedded in the cloth.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I have many questions.
		And I'll ask.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I'm excited about it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		My first question lasts.
unidentified		Okay.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Which is wait.
		I thought the Shroud of Turn had been thoroughly discredited by modern Science, right.
		And we'll get to that, but let me just Yeah, stay tuned.
		provide a partial spoiler by saying what is factually true, which is no, it has not been.
		Actually, that science has been updated as it so often is, and we know that it has not been discredited.
		But anyway, okay, what image is on this cloth?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		This is an image of a bearded man, a strong man, a muscular man, height of 510 to 511, which is interesting because the average Jewish height in the first century was 507 to 509, so this man would have been taller.
		He weighs around 170 to 180 pounds.
		And since this is a contiguous cloth, it's not strips, we're not talking about mummification, right?
		The Jews didn't balsam.
		They had to bury the dead on the day of their death.
		And that's what we see consistent with all the first century or late second temples.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		They didn't balsam.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		They didn't balsam, like, and so they didn't practice mummification.
		This is why when you read the gospels and women are coming to the tomb of Jesus on that, what became that first Easter morning, which we know is April 5, AD 30, or April 9, AD 33, depending on which year you go with, women are coming to complete the spicing of the body.
		Why?
		Because the body would stink.
		The body's in rigamortis.
		Jews would mourn the dead for seven days inside the family tomb.
		They would mourn.
		They would spice the body.
		And so the women are coming there on that first Easter morning not realizing they're going to be the first evangelists of the Christian faith because the tomb is empty and they see Jesus alive again.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What does it mean to spice a body?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		They would perfume it with mirror, with aloes, because of Jewish burial traditions.
		Remember when Lazarus dies, he's been dead for four days and Mary and Martha are like Jesus, don't open the tomb.
		The body stinketh, according to the King James version.
		Well, that's why they would spice the body.
		because for seven days you mourn the dead at the family tomb.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So you have to sit next to the corpse.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And the corpse is rotting.
		Yeah, I've been in hundreds of Jewish burial tombs.
		They're all like the shape of our hand.
		And so you would walk in the tomb.
		It's always cut out of limestone and the tomb has different niches, so the fingers represent the niches, but you would pray, you would worship, you would mourn the dead inside essentially a gathering point within the tomb of Jewish burial tradition.
		And there'll be slots covered in these niches.
		Right.
		And in those niches are these bone boxes called oshuaries because one year after your family member., your loved one died, you would collect the bones and those bones would then be placed in a bone box.
		This is a thing called oscelagium.
		And that's why when you go to the land of Israel today and you see 150,000 bone boxes on the Mount of Olives, that's all Jewish burial traditions.
		And so this is very insightful because we see a correspondence with everything we learn about the shroud, and it bears correspondence with the first century world of Jesus.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So, okay, but of the thousands, hundreds of thousands of shrouds like this that exist, why do we think this one can have an image of Jesus on it?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And this matches the way in which Jesus was crucified.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And that's what's powerful about the Shroud.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		For example.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		For example, on the Shroud, we have blood all over it.
		And the blood is interesting.
		It's been tested.
		It's type AB blood, which is Semitic blood.
		The few, the fewest amount of people in the world, only six percent of the world's population has type AB blood.
		And so this is human blood.
		It's male blood.
		It's not blood of an animal.
		It's not a hoax.
		You would have to actually kill someone if you were trying to reproduce the Shroud because we have premortem and postmortem blood all over the Shroud.
		So that's interesting.
		We see that someone died a torturous death, a death where he was flogged.
		We see scourges.
		There are hashes all over the front and back images.
		What we have is the front on the left, lined up perfectly here in the middle of the camera, we see the face of the crucified man.
		And what stick out, you can actually see between rib five and six, a gash in the side.
		Well, Jesus, we know from John's Gospel, he is penetrated through rib five and six by a spear.
		And that spear, John says, blood and water comes out.
		Well, that's postmortem blood.
		We know that that blood differs from the other pre-mortem blood on the shroud.
		So many of these factoids are indicative that this was a man who had suffered crucifixion under the Romans.
		They were experts at it.
		And we see that all this bears correspondence with what we read in the Gospels about how Jesus died.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How do we know that the man pictured on this shroud was crucified?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		That's a great question because there are crucifixion nail wounds.
		You can actually see in the forearms of the crucified man, we see, by the way, wrist, hands, the entire hand, it's all the same Greek word.
		And so Jesus, we know that the nail penetrates through the wrist and the palm, and that's how the Romans would crucify their victims.
		In fact, we have twenty one different evidences of crucifixion withion with nail penetrations just in the land of Israel in the first century.
		So this was a common way that the Romans had perfected in killing people.
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		So we know that crucifixion was a best historical practice.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, and it's the best established fact of the ancient world, Jesus' death by Roman crucifixion.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Meaning that if we can't know that Jesus died by Roman crucifixion based on historical record, we shouldn't believe anything from history at all.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		We have as much evidence for the crucifixion of Jesus as we have from the Roman Empi empires of the same, the Roman emperors of the same period, which is remarkable.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Where does that, it is remarkable.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Where does that evidence come from?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It comes out of all the sources Tacitus, Suetonius, Lucian.
		We have eleven different sources within, and I always use what the most critical scholars use within a hundred years of the time of Jesus, which his ministry begins in 26 to 27 AD.
		He's crucified, as we said, on that first Easter weekend, April 5, he's resurrected.
		He's crucified April 3 AD 30.
		We know the exact date, which is fascinating to know that.
		And then we have eleven A sources that talk about this Jesus, this Crestus.
		He's spelled in varying ways, but they're all talking about the same person, this Jesus Christ who's crucified under the reign of Pontius Pilate at the hands of the Jews.
		And that's written in Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus.
		There's some remarkable work coming out with Josephus recently that Josephus, who we've already mentioned, the first century Roman historian, he would have had a first hand knowledge.
		He would have had friends who were at the trial of Jesus, and he writes about that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		He was not a Christian.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So of those eleven, obviously, you've got the authors of the four gospels who testified to us.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Saul, Paul, you have Paul.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, those are all followers of Jesus.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But you have non Christians.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		You have hostile witnesses who give voice to the historicity of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Interesting, interesting.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So what does the face tell us?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		The face is remarkable.
		When you look at this, this is truly remarkable.
		So let me back up for a minute.
		In 1898, the first photograph is taken of the Shroud.
		Okay, remember, photography has only been invented in the 1840s.
		And so in 1898, when the Shroud has been on display, the Shroud has only been on public display a few times in its entire history.
		And right now, you have to see it through a private viewing.
		Very few people.
		This is the closest.
		This is what's so cool about our broadcast today.
		I mean, this is the closest the audience will ever get to the Shroud of Turin, what we're bringing today on your network.
		What's amazing when you look at the face is we see a actual image in Sakanda Pia when he takes the photograph in 1898 of the Shroud, there was no electricity in the Church Tucker, so he had to bring in generators.
		He had to take flash photography.
		The exposures took 14 minutes and 20 minutes.
		When I was in Turin, Italy recently, I saw the actual camera he used.
		It looked like a dorm refrigerator.
		He used glass plates to take the photo.
		And in the dark room.
		Now Saconda Pia is a lawyer and he's just a hobbyist photographer, because who was a professional photographer at the 19th century.
		And he's in the dark room.
		And I want to show you what he sees using my cell phone.
		And when I speak on our tour events, I have our entire audience do this.
		If you take your phone and if you put it in classic invert and you just bring up the camera and if you focus in, I want you to do something, I'm going to give you my phone.
		I want you to focus in on the image and you're going to see exactly what Sakonda Wild.
		Sakonda Pia saw this image and he's a follower of Jesus and he believes he's looking at the face of Jesus Christ.
		Keep in mind, he would be the first one to see the face of Jesus since the apostles.
		And what does he say in the dark room in 1898, never more appropriately?
		Oh my God.
		And so in 1898 he says it's really, it's so much clearer.
		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And this is photographic negative.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		The negative is actually the positive.
		And so if you trace and go to the back, I want you to look at the back of the image, the head, the blood, the back, all of those hash marks, the abrasions.
		I estimate there are seven hundred wounds on the crucified man of the shroud.
		No one was crucified the way Jesus was crucified in antiquity., the crown of thorns.
		So you ask about the face.
		Sekondapia believes that he's looking at the face of God in that image.
		Of course, he was immediately accused of being a fraudster, a hoaxer, because photography is so new, the dark room, this can't be an image, right?
		He must have faked this.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand just as a kind of physics question, like how how would a photographic negative be clearer?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Isn't that fascinating?
		I mean, that's the thing about the Shroud.
		The physics contradict the chemistry, the chemistry contradict the physics.
		That welcome to Shroud of Turin.
		You're being red pilled on the Shroud right now.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Being baffled right now.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		So the image, what's remarkable about this image is that you have to stand at least eight feet away to see it with the naked eye, as we are right now.
		The image vanishes if you get closer.
		It's hard to trace because the image is superficial, Tucker.
		I mentioned the blood earlier and there are pints of type AB blood, pre-mortem, post-mortem.
		Pints?
		Pints of blood all over it.
		I mean, this was a very, very badly wounded man.
		So again, indicative of what we know of crucifixion, pints of blood, type AB blood.
		And then in addition to that, when you look at the shroud and you see this and you see all of the image itself.
		that's left, the blood absorbs all the way through the linen, but the image is superficial.
		Now this is where you have to stay with me.
		The image is only two microns thick.
		It does not absorb all the way through.
		So if this was a hoax, if this was an artwork, if there was pigment, if there was dye, if there was paint, it would absorb fully.
		But if we took a razor to the actual shroud, we could shave off the image because it's that thin.
		And this is what the best scientists in the world cannot replicate.
		That's what's fascinating about the shroud.
		The image is actually something chemically has happened, and we believe it happened at the moment of resurrection.
		34,000 billion watts of energy in one fortieth of a billionth of a second.
		A physicist, my friend Paolo Dolazzo at ANIA Laboratories, right outside of Rome, spent five years, he's a laser expert.
		He's a physicist who works with lasers.
		And they were able to duplicate the chemical change of what happens with the linen fibers, 34,000 billion watts of energy at PIC power.
		But the thing is, it was a cold energy.
		It happened in one fortieth of a billionth of a second.
		And that is what changed the chemical structure to leave this image on the shroud.
		So that answers your question.
		How is there a photograph?
		Well, scientists don't know the mechanism.
		We have no way to quantify how this happens.
		The best scientific laboratories, when you look at Sandia Labs, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Los Alamos National Lab, ENIA Laboratories in Rome, the world's best scientists cannot reproduce this image that's in the shroud.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Does any other of the many burial shrouds from the region and the period, do any of them contain images?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		None.
		We have blood on them.
		We have Hansen's disease, the tomb of the shroud.
		We actually had a leprosy.
		Yeah, exactly.
		That was just discovered.
		The Bible deniers said there was no such thing as leprosy, so Jesus couldn't have healed lepers.
		Well, we have a shroud that actually has leprosy on it.
		None of the shrouds that we have have this image, which you've just seen, which is it's mysterious because the shroud is the most lied about artifact in the world, Tucker, and that's why I so appreciate you having me on your program today.
		It is the most hated artifact in the world.
		It's the most lied about artifact.
		It's the most misunderstood artifact in the world.
		I have an allergic reaction to Catholic relics.
		There are over twenty thousand relics in the Catholic Church.
		And then a relic is interesting because it has this apocryphal history to it, and yet it can't be be studied by the physical sciences.
		The Catholic Church has only two artefacts now that we can call both an artefact and a relic.
		We have the Shroud of Turin because it can be tested through history, through sciences.
		We're going to get to the pollen spores.
		I mean, this is like a CSI experiment when you look at the Shroud, it's amazing.
		And then we have the Sudarium of Oviedo in Spain, which is the facecloth that John's Gospel talks about that covered his face that was in the corner of the tomb when the disciples came to see that the tomb was empty that first Easter morning in John chapter 20.
		So in that cloth also has human blood, guess what the bloodod type is, type B. You can't make this stuff up.
		It's mind-boggling.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So that wasn't, that image wasn't really clear to people until 1898.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		1898, the first photograph.
		And then in 1931, Anrae, the first professional photographer, takes these high resolution images for his day.
		And that sent shock waves throughout the scientific community.
		So much so that you have thinkers like CS Lewis.
		I used to live in Oxford when I did my residency, and I would often go to the kilns to Lewis' home.
		And you can go in the bedroom ofom of Lewis' home, where the man lived, the great thinker of the 20th century who was an atheist, who became a Christian.
		And I look up and above the mantle in his bedroom, I can see it right now in my mind's eye.
		He has Henri's image of the face of the crucified man.
		Because every morning that CS Lewis woke up, he wanted to be reminded, our God has a face.
		Jesus narrates God to us.
		If you want to know what God is like, look at the face of Jesus.
		And Lewis needed that reminder.
		And so if CS Lewis takes the Shroud of Turn seriously enough to have a picture of it above his mantle in his bedroom, where he saw the first thing he saw every morning when he put his feet on the ground.
		I wanted to take it more seriously.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Amazing.
		And he was, of course, Anglican, not Catholic.
		What kind of testing has been done, scientific testing?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		That is such a great question.
		This is where I went from being a Shroud Skeptic because I was conditioned in Oxford in my residency that we, you know, we deny miracles, we deny anything supernatural.
		Oxford is really a factory for creating apostate Bible scholars by and large.
		I can say that having been there and been in faculty of theology in Keeble College.
		I know that's not popular, but it's true.
		I would often go home to my flat in Summertown after reading the Greek New Testamentament with my cohort and I would ask my wife Audrey, am I the only one who actually believes in Jesus in this group?
		And that's okay.
		And I was conditioned that this, this is a Catholic relic.
		There's no historicity behind this.
		It's a joke.
		And I was conditioned by that.
		And then I was scary, and this is why your voice is so important, Tucker.
		So many people, they're dangerous.
		They know enough to be dangerous.
		They're TikTok smart or they're YouTube smart.
		They have a sound byte, but they have no substance to their faith.
		And I want to have a substance to my faith.
		I'm a truth addict.
		I follow truth wherever it leads.
		And my pastor, Jack Graham, began encouraging me to just look into the primary sources for the shroud, not to pay attention to the blogosphere, but to pay attention to what the scientists actually tell us.
		And once I began to look at the scientific studies that underpinned all of the facts I'm sharing with you, I remember it took my breath away.
		The evidence was so compelling.
		So to answer your excellent question given that framework, 102 scientific disciplines have studied the Shroud and produced peer reviewed journals, studies and cases for all the different aspects.
		And when I say, so when I tell you it's the most studied artifact in the world, I mean it.
		102 academic disciplines have spent 600,000 scientific hours like my friend Paul Delazzo studying the lasers like my friend Bruno Barbaras, the mathematician from University of Turin, not a theologian, not a preacher, great guy, good friend of mine.
		Bruno is a mathematician and he took all the excellent questions you're asking me, the correspondence of how do we know he was crucified?
		How was he crucified?
		What blood type?
		Crown of thorns, nail print hands, nail scarred side, nail print in the calcaneus, the heel, which is interesting.
		We'll talk about that.
		The scourge marks from and then the tibulum abrasions, the cross beam.
		When he factored all those probabilities together, Bruno Barbaras, the mathematician, said there is a one in two hundred billion chance.ance it's anyone other than Jesus of Nazareth.
		One in 200 billion.
		Because I like my eyes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because the physical, the representations in this image track so precisely to the scripture.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Not only with scripture, but with what we know of crucifixion from Josephus, from Philo, from all of the other first century historians as well.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
		It's a cliché for a reason, because it's pretty good advice.
		But sometimes it's not true.
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		What do you mean there are holes in his heels?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is amazing.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Can you describe crucifixion?
		What was it?
		What was the purpose?
		How did they die?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Crucifixion was the most heinous way to die.
		It turns out humans are really good at.
		figuring out terrible, tragic ways how to destroy ourselves.
		And crucifixion brings that to a fever pitch.
		The Persians probably invented it.
		Alexander the Great, who gives us the language of the Bible, coinnae Greek, he also made crucifixion fashionable throughout his Hellenization of the world.
		The Romans come along and they take crucifixion that they learned from Greek Hellenization and they perfection it for seven hundred years.
		Remember Josephus tells us that during the Jewish Revolt AD 66 to 70, Titus and Vespasian are crucifying five hundred Jews a day.
		And so they were experts.
		Now it wasn't., it wasn't like they had a crucifixion manual.
		There were thirty provinces in the empire during Jesus' time.
		Remember, we have Pontius Pilate who's governor.
		We have first Augustus who's emperor, and then we have the other emperors who followed during Jesus' time.
		There's thirty provinces, and the provinces would practice crucifixion in different ways, but it was in the Syrian province where Judea was where it was particularly heinous.
		I already mentioned we have twenty one different records of crucifixion with nail piercing artifact that I'm going to show you.
		In fact, This is a great time to do that.
		I want you to hold the replica of the crucifixion nail.
		This is a crucifixion nail.
		It was circular on top and then it was actually a spike.
		It was an iron spike.
		And the Romans would drive this crucifixion nail through the wrists, through the palm area and then through the heel, the calcaneus.
		Our heels are very brittle, and so they had to be very accurate when they would pin someone to the cross.
		And they would probably straddle the heels on either side of what was called there you have the patibulum and then you have the c center vertical beam and the heels would be fastened, craddling the beam.
		And the victim would be crucified completely naked.
		There was no loincloth.
		I know we see that represented in traditional Christian art, but Jesus would have been crucified naked because the Romans were saying something with this.
		The Romans were saying, Don't ever defy us.
		We are the truth.
		Remember, Augustus was called the Son of God.
		And so when Mark comes along and says, No, Jesus is the Son of God, I mean, those were seditious words for the time because Augustus was called the Son of God.
		When Augustus gave good news, it was called the Son Gospel.
		Christianity takes that term, Euangelion.
		No, it's not the Gospel of Augustus.
		It's not the Gospel of the Roman Empire.
		It's not Pax Romana.
		No, this is the Gospel of the true Son of God, Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And so he's crucified and the Roman, and so crucifixion was, I mean, at least one gospel account describes the other men on either side as criminals or rebels.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Malefactors.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Who got crucified?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is interesting.
		It turns out we really hate to crucify slaves and we want to do it in the worst possible way.
		That was the Roman view.
		And so non Roman citizens.
		However, we do have citizens like Antigonus, the last of the Hasmonean rulers, who is a Roman citizen, but he defies Rome.
		This guy named Mark Anthony, who becomes Augustus, crucifies Antigonus in a really despicable way.
		He actually decapitates him first and then crucifies him.
		We have all of his remains.
		It's interesting because these crucifixion nails were thought to be something like amulets, phylacteries.
		They were thought to bring you good luck.
		And what's interesting is crucifixion nails were reused again and again.
		So the very nails that pin Jesus to the cross had probably been used many times before that to kill other Roman victims.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because, you know, ironwork is expensive.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And again, the Romans, you know, they were a slave machine.
		They knew how to kill people.
		They knew how to enslave.
		You know, forty percent of the empire were slaves.
		And so they had to know how to crucify them.
		And so you have this slave crucifying machine that is the Roman Empire.
		And then if you were a citizen but you defied the empire, you would be crucified too.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How does crucifixion kill a man?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's really interesting.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Were women crucified, by the way?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		In fact, they were crucified naked, often facing in, facing towards the cross, just for pornographic reasons.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How does it kill you?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It kills you in a variety of ways.
		It doesn't kill you quickly.
		It maximizes torment while minimizing, it actually maximizes the length of death and it prolongs death.
		And so when we study the blood work, so there are some amazing hematological reports that I've enjoyed reading thoroughly.
		When we study the blood that's on the crucified man, it bears correspondence with that Jesus, there's high levels of creatinine, which means he was suffering from kidney failure, high levels of ferritin.
		His body had inflammation all over it.
		He was dehydrated.
		You read John's Gospel.
		Remember in John's Gospel, Jesus, one of those seven sayings, I thirst, he's dehydrated.
		We know that Jesus probably lost one third of his blood volume during flagellation.
		So he was dying of a variety of things.
		Many thinkers believe that he died of suffocation, asphyxia because of pulmonary edema.
		And we see that pulmonary edema reflected both on the shroud cloth and on the sudarian of Oviedo, the face cloth.
		It's six parts pulmonary edema, one part blood.
		Again, a hoaxer is not going to make this stuff up.
		I mean, it becomes so crazy.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Pulmonary edema, so your lungs are filled with fluid.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Fluid, blood and a mixture.
		In fact, there is a translucent mixture of fluid around the side wound.
		We looked at the side wound there between rib five and six just above that triangle, which is really a patch from a burnhole.
		There's actually a translucent serum around that that, again, is consistent with what John's Gospel said, blood and water flowed out of Jesus because he was already dead.
		And so the crucifixion would prolong that.
		High levels of ferritin, high levels of creatinin.
		Jesus is suffering liver failure, kidney failure.
		His body has inflammation all over it.
		I believe, though, that Jesus died of cardiac arrest, massive heart failure, congenital heart failure because he has labored.
		breathing.
		We know all this from the blood samples.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The New Testament, one account says that his tormentors wanted him off the cross by the Sabbath, by the Sabbath.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		That's Deuteronomy 21, actually before nightfall.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Before nightfall.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So they broke his legs or they were planning to break his legs.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		They didn't because he died.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And that's consistent with Messianic prophecy in David's Psalm 22.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But why would breaking the legs of a crucified man hasten his death?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Wonderful question.
		Thank you for asking it.
		So the one way you could prolong your life is you would kind of.
		Essentially, try to stand up while you were being crucified, even though your feet were nailed, straddled the cross.
		And you would just edge up every so often while you're trying to breathe, and that would prolong your life.
		So if you broke your legs, obviously you can't stand up.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So you can't.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So the point is when you're hanging by your wrist, you can't breathe.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And you suffocate, you die in your own blood, essentially.
		And so you can't do that.
		And so that's why, but they come to Jesus, even though they break the legs of the criminals on the right or left, indicating that Jesus suffered a different kind of torment than they suffered in his flagellation.
		We'll get to that here in a moment.
		But they didn't need to break his legs because he was already dead.
		In fact, they're surprised.
		Remember, Pilate is shocked that he was so soon dead.
		Jesus begins the crucifixion around noon.
		He's dead by 3 p.m.
		The Jewish day would begin at 6 p.m.
		And so they only have about three hours to get Jesus off the cross, ask for the body of Jesus from Pontius Pilate, and then lay him in a tomb that was not far, probably 150 feet away from where Jesus was crucified.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So this is the coolest Christmas present I'll get this year.
		This is a leather Alp pouch.
		Logo right there, gets on your belt, made in the United States, out of Alp.
		It's made of actual leather.
		If you carry, you can put the firearm on one side and a loaded tin of alp on the other.
		It will never be far from you and it is legit.
		Cool.
		What does it mean that they carried the crossbar?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What's the crossbar?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		That is such a great question.
		So, and this is what's so amazing.
		When again, I don't privilege this.
		I just look at this through historical eyes.
		When you look at the back, the dorsal image on the shroud, you can see that there are scourge marks all over it.
		But in the right shoulder coming down a diagonal, there are abrasions all over the back.
		that Jesus, the crucified man of the Shroud, weighed around 175 to 180 pounds.
		The patibulum, which is just the cross beam.
		So they didn't carry the whole cross.
		They would only carry the cross beam.
		And again, that wood was scarce as well, by the way, in the Roman Empire.
		So that cross beam would have been used again and again for other crucifixion victims.
		And so Jesus experiences the scourging, and then he's asked to carry the cross.
		And that cross, the cross beam, the patibulum weighs around 125 pounds, and he can't carry it.
		He falls.
		And this is one of the most moving experiences for me when I was studying the signatures of the pollen.
		We actually have not just pollen, but we have limestone and clay soil that is native only to Jerusalem.
		And it's on three parts of the crucified man in the shroud.
		Are you ready for this?
		It's on the feet, obviously, because he walked barefoot.
		It's on the knees and then the tip of the nose.
		So when Jesus is carrying the tibulum, he falls.
		And he not only falls, he falls hard, he collapses and his face gashes the ground because we have in the tip of his nose actual soil from the land of Israel, from Jerusalem.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So the cross beam is the piece of wood to which is his right.
		His wrists are nailed.
		And that's tied to a vertical post.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, to match the Greek letter tau.
		So it would look like a capital T. We see that.
		And he's tied to that post, but he's nailed to it.
		Make no mistake, he was nailed to it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right, but the but the cross is tied.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why the letter tau?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Was there a significance?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		There wasn't.
		The Christian movement makes it significant.
		We call this styrogram where you write the letter tau and then the letter rho.
		So the two letters.
		And we actually see that used in early Christian scriptures.
		It's like in a it's essentially just a quick way of saying Jesus was crucified.
		It becomes an early Christian icon.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So this is not really an execution method per se as much as it's like a way of torturing someone to death.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's like the rack or the spiked coffin or But much, but yeah, but even worse because it prolonged the agony as long as some would be crucified outside of Jerusalem.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		They'd be on the cross three, four, five days.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So this was for the most reviled enemies of the state.
		Like there's no respect at all.
		This is not like executing a man by beheading or firing squadron periods.
		This is like for the slaves.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Insurrectionists, like the worst.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And thinking about the heel, you know, you think about the first gospel message.
		It's actually called the Prote Evangelium in Genesis 315.
		Remember that first prophecy that his heel, he would crush his head, but the enemy would strike his heel.
		And we know that the enemy did his best to crucify Jesus and did strike his heel.
		And then you look at that blood that was prophesied even as far back as Genesis 315, that Jesus would smash the enemy's head with his feet, even though his foot was crucified and pierced.
		And we see that it did take blood.
		And I think sometimes we can look at this so academically we forget, no, this was a real historical person who suffered this torment.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It's just kind of wild if you think about it that the early church took a torture device, like the scariest and most humiliating of all torture devices, and made it the symbol of their religion.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Totally.
		And I mean again, if what is that?
		Well, if we were making up a religious movement, we would never start there.
		I don't think so.
		But please don't make any mistake.
		I mean, if you and I No, because you'd want your God to be triumphant.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't want your God to be humiliated.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		So it's certainly not crucified.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Not by some colonial governor and a bunch of local people.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Local, dumb religious leaders.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And I think the message in this, and there's so many points of application, many people wonder if God really loves them.
		And they say, well, how do I know God loves me?
		Or if I send away God's love for me?
		Paul wrote in Romans 5, 8, but God demonstrated his love for us and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
		And the shroud is a beautiful demonstration.
		It's a great reminder that God gave his best for us, Tucker, when he sent his son.
		He didn't give us second best.
		He gave us his very best.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But wait, I mean, if God is going to come to earth and redeem humanity, why would he allow himself to be ritually humiliated and tortured in the most embarrassing way possible?
		Wouldn't he show up and be like, I'm God?
		Like, you're all wrong.
		I'm here now.
		Daddy's home.
		Knock it off.
		I have all power.
		He wouldn't like, why would he submit to some like, ludicrous local authority and die with the criminals on our side?
		It's like the opposite of what you would imagine.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It smells of authenticity to me.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, I agree with that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Because it's so not what you would expect.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No, you wouldn't.
		And 2 Corinthians 521 says, God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might be the righteousness of God.
		And so that means that God treated Jesus, and we see that very clearly and depicted in the Shroud, as if he lived your life and mine.
		So in Christ, and this is the beautiful message of grace, he could treat us as if we lived the life of Jesus.
		And that's the message of grace.
		It doesn't make sense.
		There's no equation that's going to help us give meaning to grace.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But it's like the early church decided to brag about its weaknesses.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And that's the foolishness of preaching that Paul talks about.
		It's the foolishness of preaching.
		It's the wisdom of God to those who believe in foolishness to those who deny it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Walk through in clinical detail the torture that this man endured before the cross.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Tucker, it's something I'm still learning about because it takes my breath away, even though I've I mean, I've I've published 250,000 words and academic works on the resurrection and on the physical torment of Jesus.
		I've published several popular books on it.
		I've talked about it, and I can't get over it because there's a there's a realism to it that reminds me of how shameful my own sin is.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Remember But pretend you're a police reporter here.
unidentified		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So Jesus is with his disciples at night.
		Judas shows up in the morning.
		The bunch of olive trees are kind of standing around.
		Roman appears, local religious authorities appear, grab Jesus.
		He goes on trial.
		Get us through what happened.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Well, it started before that.
		It would have started before that night because Jesus cleanses the temple and he literally reserves his fiercest words for the corrupt religious establishment.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I noticed that.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Jesus hates hypocrites.
		He hates corrupt religion.
		In this case, it was the corrupt Jewish priesthood.
		It was the corruption of what was happening and taking place at the temple.
		The money changers.
		You had to put all your currency in the Syrian or excuse me, the Syrian or excuse me, the Tyryrion Temple Tax.
		And they were ripping everyone off and they made God's house a den of thieves.
		Jesus cleans the tables.
		That's a messianic sign.
		He's like, no, and who can do that but God himself, cleanse his house.
		My house shall be called a house of prayer.
		And so that's when they begin to decide to kill him.
		Who are they?
		The Sanhedrin, the seventy members of the Jewish ruling council, ask Pilate to crucify Jesus under the reign of Caiaphas, who is the one who went after Jesus runs the temple and turns the tables of the money changers and says, get out.
		They're like, we're going to crucify him.
		We're going to kill him.
		We want him dead.
		And again, Pilate had to sanction that.
		And so Pilate, being the politician he was, he says, Okay, we'll do it.
		And so Jesus is arrested.
		He's taken to the home of Caiaphas.
		You can go to this home today.
		It's the first entry steps that Jesus would have been led to Caiaphas' home.
		He spends his last night there, which would have been Thursday night.
		He is beaten.
		He is tortured.
		They put a blind.
		They put a blindfold on him.
		They began to hit him.
		They club him.
		There are marks on the crucified man that are different from the scourging.
		He's clubed.
		Someone took something that's the equivalent of a bat and struck him with a, like, a rod.
		And that's when they're saying, Prophesy to us, preacher, who struck you, you know, because they blindfolded him.
		And then he is led from there to Herod of Antipas, who, you know, I find no fault in him.
		Send him back to Pilate.
		You know, everywhere he's trying to pass.
		Herod of Antipas was one of the he was the Tetrarch of Galilee, he was one of the Jewish leaders who was put in place by the Roman Empire who, um, decapitated John the Baptist.
		He was the one who killed Jesus' friend.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So he was like a local guy, he was a stooge of the Roman government.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Totally, but from Galilee, but they all came to Jerusalem for Pesach.
		So this is not, this is not unusual.
		And then, ultimately, Jesus ends up in Pretorium at the hands of Pilate.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is Pretorium?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It would have been right off the Temple Mount, this structure where the Romans, where the Romans were headquartered to keep peace in the city.
		So you have the Jewish priest and they have their armed forces that arrest Jesus like their Jewish police, and then Jesus is handed over to the Roman authorities to be crucified.
		And in John 19, I think it's one of the most overlooked, understated passages in all the Bible, and Pilate had Jesus flogged.
		And if we read that too quickly, we just don't understand the impact of it, and that's why I've brought these artefacts for you.
		I want you to This is a flagrum that we had commissioned.
		I want you to hold this, Tucker, and I want you to get it in your hand.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So flagrum.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		This is a flagrum.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so this is a wooden dowel with three rawhide lines coming off it and lead balls on the end.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right, and I have two of them because we know from the crucified man that there were two torturers.
		So Jesus is being whipped simultaneously by two different executioners.
		So the purpose of the lead balls on the end of the rawhide is to inflict as much torment as possible.
		And so sometimes you would have flagrums with bone ends, but there are all these barbell shapes on the hash marks of the crucified man, which leads me to believe that it was used in something just like this.
		So this is again a one to one flagrum that the Romans would use.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So if you hit someone with a length of raw hide and a piece of lead balls at the end, I mean, you kill someone with that.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And this is where Jesus loses one third of his blood volume.
		And I want you to understand something for the benefit of our audience.
		Notice how short this is.
		I mean, this is not like an Indiana Jones whip.
unidentified		Right.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there was a demonic intimacy to this torment.
		And the blood of Jesus would have been splattered all over the executioners.
		And so they flogged Jesus.
		There are two hundred wounds on the dorsal, on the back image.
		So if we took time right now to count them up, there's over two hundred on the back.
		There's 172 on the front.
		There is not an area of Jesus' body that has not been tortured, including the pelvic region.
unidentified		We have we do hit him in the crotch with this?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Again and again.
		With lead tips.
		And not only that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Take the skin right off a man's body with that.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And actually, according to the hematological reports, Jesus is a man's body.
		we think his right eye was blinded.
		So there's not only we'll get to the Crown of Thorns here shortly, so hold your breath for that one.
		But there's his right eye, there are wounds consistent with flagellation.
		So we don't know if the guys were drunk or if they were just going to town on him, but they whip him and at some point the scourge hits him probably from the back of the head in the eye right here and likely blinds him in the right eye because his right eye is severely punctured in the image of the crucified man.
		And also his left cheek probably from the rod beating at Caiaphas' home is also hugely.
		So huge, I mean, it's like he's been in a heavyweight boxing match.
		I mean, he can't see out of his right eye, his left cheek is raised.
		And so this is the flagrum.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So this was before he was sentenced to crucifixion, before he was sentenced to death.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Pilate, again, he brings Jesus after and again, so 372 wounds that we count, but again, we don't have the lateral side.
		So again, I want to reiterate, there's probably 700 wounds on his body, if you count them up, and if you just You couldn't survive that long term, right?
		And this is where Pilate then fashions a crown of thorns and he places it on Jesus., his head, and let me set these so we can make some room.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So that's the halo of thorns.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No, actually not.
		Let me show you.
		I thought it was a halo because you and I, we've both been so influenced by early Christian art and specifically medieval art, but this is what took my breath away.
		And I want you to be careful with this because these are Bethlehem Thorns.
		This is the Crown of Thorns.
		This is the helmet of thorns.
		This was not a wreath, Tucker.
		This was not like a sweatband you wore around your forehead.
		They fashioned this diabolical crown of thorns, these Bethlehem thorns that when they dry, they're as sharp as nails.
		You can feel that.
		I mean, it picks your finger right to touch.
		And they ram this on Jesus' head.
		And I want you to let this set in because there's fifty puncture wounds on the head, both the forehead, the top and the back of the head of the crucified man of the Shroud, fifty puncture marks.
		And so you can imagine.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And that's all detectable on the Shroud.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right on the Shroud.
		You can see the back of the head, all the blood pumping in the back of the head from this crown of thorns being rammed on his head.
		So Jesus has seven hundred scourge marks, and then they slam this on his head.
		And this is where Pilate brings Jesus before the Jewish mob.
		And this is where we hear in the Latin, Echo homo, behold the man, Pilate says.
		And he's bloodied.
		How does he even stand?
		We don't know.
		His love compelled him to stay standing on our behalf.
		And this is the point.
		Imagine seeing a man in this state.
		He will very quickly be dead.
		And that it's not enough for the crowd.
		They begin to yell, Crucify him, crucify him, crucify him.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Demons.
		And this is where Pilate says, I should also note as a historical fact, he never did anything wrong.
		Like he was never even accused he was never accused of hurting anyone.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Remember all the false witnesses came forward when Jesus is in this dummy trial at Caiaphas' home and they say, well, he's a bastard.
		Remember, Jesus is accused of being an illegitimate child.
		Right.
		He's accused of blaspheming, of casting out demons by Beelzebub, by the worker, by the prince of demons.
		All of these false accusations are brought against him and Jesus doesn't open his mouth.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But just to be clear, even if the false accusations were real accusations, if they were true, he's still never accused of hurting anyone.
unidentified		Right.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		He can't have sinned.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No sin was.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But he's not even accused of it.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So, just to put it in context, so it's not they didn't even claim, like, he he killed a man in Reno, you know, shot a man in Reno just to watch him die.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You know, there's nothing like that at all.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Or he cheated people out of money or he, you know, spit out the money changers and stole the money.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Nothing like that at all.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		This was diabolical in every sense of the word, as you rightly point out.
		And this Crown of Thorns, the first time I saw it was in Jerusalem.
		And Tucker, it took my breath away.
		It still takes my breath away.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So the reason that you've revised or you're going with the modern revision to the common halo of thorns.
		is based on the shroud.
		The blood record right there.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		The punctions, the wounds, the basically the pathology of his head and his face and the back of his head.
		And this is what you asked, how do we know this is Jesus?
		Well, the helmet of thorns leaves it beyond all doubt in my mind.
		I believe this is a slam dunk case that the crucified man is the historical Jesus, without a doubt, based on the evidence.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If you were to recreate, if you were to take the gospel accounts and Josephus and the twenty one total accounts of Jesus' crucifixion, which I think he is accepted by everyone, atheists and Christians alike, as a historical fact.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If you were to take all those facts from the record and try and create an image of them, could you create this?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No.
		That's the fascinating thing.
		The best scientists in the world cannot explain how there's an image there and they cannot replicate it.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And it couldn't be replicated now.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Even with our best technologies today, it can't be replicated in any way.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So this brings us to, I think, one of the central questions, which is the provenance of this.
		Where did it come from?
		What do we know?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		That's the fascinating thing.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		About where this has been for the last two thousand years.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, it turns out there's a scientist, a criminologist by the name of Max Frey, who was involved in the Nuremberg trials, a very respected criminologist.
		He spent five years of his life.
		Again, this is where I say 102 academic disciplines.
		These are men and women who risk their academic reputation, and again, why I'm so grateful you're bringing this to light today on your program.
		Max Frey, who is now dead, spends five years of his life studying the pollen spores on the shroud.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What is a pollen spore?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Pollen.
		Well, I have it on me from this beautiful state we're in right now.
		Yeah.
		From travelling here and all the allergies here right now.
		Yeah.
		But there are fifty six different specimens of pollen that Max Fry detects.
		From plants.
		From plant life, botany.
		And what's amazing about it, again, if we're making this up or trying to hoax this, we wouldn't have known this seven hundred years ago in medieval Europe.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		There are certain pollen flower plants that bloom only in springtime, where in the land of Israel, where more specifically in Jerusalem, and that pollen is on the shroud.
		So you have pollen flowers that only bloom in April in the land of Israel, and that pollen signature, according to Max Fry, those, that pollen species, we have fifty six of them.
		is embedded in the shroud chemically.
		What's fascinating is we don't just have pollen from the land of Israel, we have pollen that traces the provenance of the shroud from Jerusalem, 8030, to Edessa, which is far-eastern Turkey, where it's there for 900 years, and then we have pollen from Constantinople.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The Eastern Roman Empire.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right, Constantinople.
		And again, the shroud is constantly escaping the caliphates of the time.
		So it goes from Constantinople in around 1200 through Athens, finally up to Leary, France with a knight, Geoffrey de Charnay, who we don't he never says how he got it, but he has it.
		And then, ultimately, he sells it for two castles to the Savoy family of France.
		And then it's moved to Chambury, France, and it's under the House of Savoy.
		And then it becomes very political because the Savoys then relocate their kingdom to Turin, Italy.
		And to solidify their political rule, they make sure they bring the shroud with them in the 16th century to Turin, Italy, where it's now.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So where as a matter of written record Yeah, great question.
		Leaving aside the, you know, the modern chemical analysis of the shroud.
		How far can we trace it back so we know it was worth it?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		We trace it first, of course, as I already mentioned, the shroud is mentioned in all four gospels.
		And then we have Eusebius, who is the most respected church historian.
		He is at the Council of Nicaea in 325 talking about the facecloth, the image cloth of Jesus.
		He is the one who gives us the story of the shroud going from the land of Israel to King Abgar, who is the King of Edessa, where it stays for nine hundred years.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And we know it was there.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And it's known by different names though.
		This is the thing that I want to say.
		I'm a huge Kansas City Chiefs fan.
		Kansas City Chiefs were not always the chiefs.
		They were the Dallas Chiefs, they were the Dallas Texans before they moved to Kansas City.
		It's very similar with the Shroud.
		It's known by different names.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But it's the same object.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		The Mandillion, the image of Odessa, the facecloth.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And as we continue to red pill ourselves with this Tucker, you have the pollen that matches it, you have the textual records that match it, Eusebius, we have these other wonderful early Christian historians who are talking about this facecloth.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		When's the first written reference to it?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Woody Eusebius, the great church historian, early 4th century.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Early 300s.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right, 325 AD is Council of Nicaea, so it would antedate that, so ear.
		And he's Bishop of Eusebius.
		And keep in mind, what is Eusebius?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Wait, hold on, but just so as a Okay, so we know this has existed for at least 1800 years.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So the written record.
		The written record shows it.
		So that's kind of not in dispute.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So if this were a forgery, it would have to have been a forgery at least as early as the fourth century, the 3rd century.
unidentified		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And so that right there kind of tells you like if modern science can't replicate this, good point.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Probably not possible in 20 AD.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Exactly.
		Incredibly not.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So I didn't know that.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No, nobody does.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And because I was told by Reader's Digest in the 70s, no, I'm serious.
		I first, Strange Stories and Amazing Facts was a Reader's Digest book that I read in 1980 in summer camp.
		And I read about this and I'm like, this amazing thing and photographic negative, but we know it's a product of the Renaissance or the late Middle Ages.
unidentified		False.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		But there was already a written record of it going back to the greatest historian of the early church, Eusebius, who I was going to mention, he's in Caesarea.
		He has a library.
		We don't know the sourcesces he had, but he had an incredible library.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		So he's standing on the shoulders of historians before him.
		And so this is a longstanding historical tradition in the church.
		One of the things that's interesting to me, and one of the things I had to get over as I began studying the Shroud, Tucker, is I thought it was a Catholic relic.
		Now we need to, again, I want to hammer on this because you have a lot of Protestants that watch your program and a lot of Christians who think, Oh, that's just a Catholic relic.
		I'm not interested in the Catholic Church, therefore, I'm not interested in the Shroud.
		The Catholic Church did not take control of the Shroud of Turin until 1983, two years of probate court, the last king of Savoy bequeaths the shroud to the current Pope, who was Pope John Paul II at the time.
		And after two years of probate court, finally, the Catholic Church becomes the custodian of the shroud in the 1980s.
		So it was in private hands.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So you said it was in eastern Turkey for nine hundred years, where?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		In Edessa, which is which is eastern Turkey.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It was a stronghold of the Christian movement as it was, but then when the Muslim invasion started and again, the seventh century, it escapes to Constantinople and then Athens and then beyond that, as I mentioned.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It keeps moving west.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		As the Ottoman Empire rises.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Totally.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And Islam swaps over the land of the Bible.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Islam killed the bishops, the Bibles, and the buildings.
		So it's escaping that.
		So it's amazing the embarrassment of riches we have from an artifactual standpoint.
		And then when you actually look, there's something else we haven't touched on.
		The iconography, the early Christian art, Tucker, I mean, is remarkable.
		On my social media, we created an AI image.
		My friend Doug Powell and me, Doug gets all the credit.
		He's an amazing artist.
		He imported the information of the face of the crucified man and compares it with the icon, Pantokrator, Lord over all, which is at the currently at Saint Catherine's Monastery where it has been since the sixth century.
		This is an icon of Jesus.
		It's famous.
		When he put those two images, the face of Jesus in the shroud and the icon Pantokrator in Sinai, he put that in mid journey and created an AI rendering of what Jesus would have looked like.
		It is so moving.
		It's powerful to look at.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It's interesting.
		The face of Jesus on the shroud before us.
		Even at this distance, it's recognizable as the Jesus from antiquity, from the artistic representations of Jesus all the way up until George Floyd became Jesus in 2020.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Not the gay looking Jesus of the Medieval.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right, yeah, no.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I mean, and I really mean that if you look at Jesus' representations in the Medieval era, it's a very effeminate Jesus, no facial hair, weak, small, a white Jesus.
		That's not what we have reflected.
		So again, if we were a hoaxer in the Medieval era, we would have created the Jesus of our time, which is this effeminate Jesus.
		No, what do we have in here?
		We have a man's man, a long haired man, a man, you know, we know Jesus walked twenty thousand miles in his ministry.
		If you just add up his trips to Jerusalem in his public ministry, Jesus being about thirty according to Luke's Gospel when he begins his ministry., Jesus was walking all the time.
		There was no Uber or ride share apps.
unidentified		Yes.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Pound for pound, a strong man, a physically fit man.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And that's why you could probably take the brutality that he endured as well.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That's such a, that's just so interesting though, but the face is distinctive and the face is reflected through Christian art going back a long way.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Like if you just showed me that, that face, I'd say, Oh, that's Jesus' face.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		The So the question always was like, Well, how do we know what Jesus looks like?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And this is the answer.
		Yeah.
		And so all the icons, what we call them is all the iconography, all the icons of Jesus.
		There are over two hundred of them.
		They seem to have the same source material.
		And when you compare it to the Shroud, it's like they all trace the face of Jesus from the Man of the Shroud.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Wild.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And not only that, you have the numismatics.
		This is the study of coinage from the ancient times.
		And you have all these Byzantine coins that look just like the image of the face of the Man of the Shroud.
		So, like, what are all these people looking at if the Shroud was invented, you know, like the liberal scientists want us to believe and the liberal Bible scholars who are apostate, you know, in the 14th century?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So that's the claim.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		The claim is based on one fact, the carbon dating of 1260 to 1390 is what they wrote on the chalkboard in October of 1988 that the carbon dating said.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So let's get into that in some detail.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If you don't mind.
		I would love to.
		So everybody remember, so I miss, I guess I misremembered.
		I was told it was probably fake in 1980, but it was, you're saying, was that till 1988?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		October 88.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		October 88, there was a carbon date, radiocarbon dating of the shroud itself.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Before you debunk it, if you wouldn't mind just explaining who did that.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So the agreement was, again, the Catholic Church did not take control of the shroud until the mid eighties.
		First, if you don't mind, could I just back up to 1978, Tucker, to the original scientific research?
		So, I mean, this is amazing, which I'm glad we have this time.
		In 1976, and I'll get to it, I want to set the context.
		Two Air Force Academy professors, Eric Jumper and John Jackson, use a machine that was developed to study the effects of the nuclear bomb called a VP eight image analyzer.
		It's a brightness map, and they would use that to scan the impact of the nuclear bomb.
		So that's what the machine is.
		These are not pastors, these are not theologians, these are professors at the Air Force Academy.
		They get an image of the Shroud of Turin, probably the Enrique 1930s image that C.S. Lewis had in his bedroom, and they put it through the VP8 image analyzer.
		And they realize there are three D, there are three D information coded in the Shroud of Turin.
		No other picture does that.
		I want to make sure this sets in.
		There's three D information, there's like a holographic topography brightness map of the man of the shroud that looks like you're looking at the surface, you know, geography, topography of there's like depth.
		There's depth, there's 3D the way they set it, just analytically, there's 3D information coded in the image of the crucified man.
		And when they put pictures of their grandchildren through it, it was just smeared two D images.
		So no other image does this.
		So that VP eight image analyzer, you can go on YouTube and watch it done, is what gave rise to what's called the Shroud of Turin Research Project, the scientific STERP team, which consists of thirty three scientists, twenty six who went to Turin, Italy.
		They had five days.
		They had one hundred twenty hours to study the Shroud.
		Keep in mind the Savoy family allowed this, not the Catholic Church.
		This is controversial, but I don't believe the Catholic Church would have ever allowed the Shroud of Turin to be researched.
		And that's not Barry Schwartz, who was the documenting photographer who photographed the shroud in 1978.
		It was the private family, the Savoys, the House of Savoy, who allowed this research team, thirty three scientists, to study the shroud for five days.
		Okay, so they took four years, they didn't go on Twitter, didn't exist, they didn't go on social media, didn't exist.
		They took four years to publish all of their findings.
		And I use, I haven't used this word yet until this point in our interview.
		The STERP team, these thirty three scientists, by the way, Roy Rogers says, give me fifteen minutes in the scientific method and I'll prove it's a hoax.
		He wasn't saying that after fifteen minutes.
		studying the shroud, they all thought they had a free trip to Italy.
		They were in the lobby, Barry Schwartz, one of the original STERP teams, and I met many of them.
		Sadly, many of them are now dead, but they're meeting over drinks in the lobby of the Italy Hotel in Turin, which is a beautiful city to visit, and they're all joking that they have a free trip to Italy to debunk this hoax.
		Nobody was saying that a few days later.
		So these 33 scientists publish and they prove, this is the word I'm going to use, it's proven.
		The shroud is not a work of art.
		It is not an artificial image.
		They can't tell you how it's made, but they prove there's no pigment, there's no dye, there's no paint.
		They cannot explain how the image is there, but it is not man made.
		So for the Christians out there or or religiously minded people who think that like we're violating the second commandment right now looking at this, we're not violating the second commandment, Tucker, so we can be at ease.
		What's the second commandment?
		You shall not worship a graven image.
		A graven image is by definition a man made object, a handmade object.
		The shroud is not man made.
		It's overworldly.
		So we're not violating the second commandment.
		So that allows And what's overworldly about it?
		The three D That the image we're Here's the cool part about the shroud.
		I believe we're looking at the moment of Jesus' resurrection, ultimately.
		All of this conversation leads that something powerful happens on that first Easter morning.
		It's electromagnetic radiation that's so powerful.
		We don't have this amount of watt power on Earth, literally 40 billion watt of energy, but it happens.
		It's pick power.
		It's not like the power when you flip it on.
		It took me a while to learn this.
		It's almost like a cold energy because it happens so quickly in a twinkling of an eye.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't evaporate.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't eliminate.
		That's what the labs.
		The labs could heat up and essentially tatuateate the shroud, but it would, it would burn up instantly.
		It would scorch.
		This didn't scorch.
		It was the pulse rate, which was so, and I know we're getting deep, but it's important to be nuanced in this conversation and precise.
		The pulse rate power, forty thousand billion watts travelling at one fortieth of a billion third of a second, we believe is that moment that Jesus' body is resurrected.
		And that's what leaves this image.
		But whatever it was, it was a process that chemically changed the fibrils at a point two depth, which is surface level, to leave this image.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And that can't just for the fifth time.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		that cannot be applied with a brush.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No, it cannot be duplicated.
		And it hasn't been.
		One man in Britain offered a million pounds to anyone who could replicate the Shroud, and no one has taken him up on the offer.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So if we have a written record of the Shroud going back to the fourth century, how were scientists, scientists allowed to say that it, I mean, if we know it existed because contemporaneous sources described it, then how were they allowed to say it was a renaissance creation?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, how are they allowed to say anything that's unfactual?
		They're liars.
		And they hate truth and they hate God.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I'm aware of that.
		But like, just on logic grounds.
		It's how could I don't know, did anyone say, well, wait a second, we've been, you know, someone in the 320s wrote about that.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, they don't know that, honestly, scientists, they don't read these trees, they don't read Christian history.
		Most, you know, most media people have never read the Bible.
		They don't even know.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but if they're studying the shot of Churn, you think they would have some grounding in the shot of Churn.
		Right, but no, exactly.
		So they do radiocarbon dating.
		This was the headline from 88, I guess.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right, that it's a so that, so thank you.
		So that was the scientific launch to the so then in the mid and late 80s, thank you for bringing me back.
		It's agreed upon that seven laboratories would do the blind research, carbon dating of the shroud.
		And the scientists who studied it said, whatever you do, don't take the sample from the fringes because the shroud has been repaired.
		There's two things we're looking at, Tucker, that it took me, again, a minute to learn all this.
		There's these parallel, those lines, those are burn marks, those are scorch marks.
		These sixteen triangular shapes, those are patches.
		The shroud survived a fire in 1532.
		The nuns stitched it up with a backing cloth.
		And they also, many Where was the fire?
		This was in Chambury, France.
		It's broken.
		The shroud has survived at least three fires, and so there are also water stains.
		You can see those water marks as well on the shroud.
		This is what's amazing.
		Like if this was an artwork, it would have diluted it.
		The image would have smeared or vanished.
		None of that happens.
		The image is still, as you just saw with the classic invert on my phone, very apparent.
		And so it survives all that, but it did come in contact.
		I mean, millions of people have likely touched this shroud.
		I mean, it would be brought out for baby baptisms.
		That upper right corner would be cut off.
		Like if I really loved you, Tucker, I would give you a piece of the shroud to take home with you after having dined with me if you visited me in one of my castles.
		I mean, so it's known that aspects of the shroud were given out even for indulgences.
		So in the top left, you can see with the naked eye, anyone who pulls up the shroud can see it's a contaminated area of the shroud.
		It's dark.
		It's been touched a lot.
		It's the fringes of the shroud.
		And so there's an invisible weave there that many great scholars believe that was patched.
		And so the scholars said, whatever you do, don't carbon date the corners of the shroud because it's been so contaminated.
		It's a contaminated sample.
		get in the middle of the shroud and carbon date those samples.
		So what did this community do?
		These seven labs that were supposed to carbon date it, actually only three labs did.
		Nobody ever answered why seven labs didn't do it.
		It wasn't done blindly.
		Three labs, Tucson, Arizona, Zurich, Switzerland, and Oxford, England carbon date the shroud.
		What part did they take?
		The upper left hand corner that any non scientist can see as a contaminated sample.
		And they carbon date that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What sample?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Thank you for noticing that.
		Exactly.
		You're talking about the very top left.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That's a different color.
unidentified		Right.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's dark.
		That's what they carbon dated.
		And then ironically, the British Museum suppresses the data, the raw data of the carbon dating for twenty nine years.
		Only in 2017, through a French attorney, who I'm going to be with very soon, very soon at the International Shroud Conference in Saint Louis, I encourage people to check it out.
		The French attorney through the equivalent of a Freedom of Information Act finally got the raw data released for the carbon dating.
		And what did they find?
		The sample that was used to carbon date it has cotton within the sample, not fine linen.
		The rest of the shroud is fine linen.
		That's indicative it was patched.
		So this whole bias towards the shroud is based on bad science and suppressed science, by the way, 29 years suppressed.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if there was cotton in Europe or the Middle East?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		There was in Europe because they would use it for patchwork, these invisible weaves, these seamstresses.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No, right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But two thousand years ago.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
		This was fine linen.
		We don't have any other shrouds with cotton.
		This is the patchwork that was done in medieval Europe to protect the shroud, to preserve it.
		And so that is what the carbon So if we're stacking up all the evidence for and against the shroud, we're in the middle of presenting a voluminous amount of evidence for the authenticity of the shroud and that it is indeed Jesus' burial cloth.
		And we have one bit of evidence to deny the shroud, this erroneous carbon 14 dating.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Has anyone ever carbon dated the linen?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not been allowed to be dated since.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't understand how you could carbon date what's obviously a patch.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That I can see.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, we weren't even made aware of what was dated until the data came out.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So they knew that there was cotton in the sample, which just immediately disqualifies it.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, it's a contaminated substance.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And they knew that, and they've hid it for almost thirty years.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		We're sure.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Shroud of Turn Research.
		Yeah, and Ray Rogers, the chemist who said, give me fifteen minutes and the scientific method, debunked it in a scientific journal and then sadly died a month later of cancer, and his debunk of the carbon dating got no traction.
		So I'm happy to bring it up in your program and give him all the support.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So why has, why not just take, I mean, it's kind of a significant question, right?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		If it's two thousand years old, it wouldn't be.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, because the Catholic Church is is afraid of it.
		And the Catholic Church has still never come out in support of the Shroud.
		Are you aware of that?
		Like they're ambivalent about it.
		They're indifferent about it.
		They're only and I was just in Turin, so I'm thankful for everyone there who welcomed me.
		I met all the scientists.
		My friend Enrico, the chemist, who the Shroud is now currently kept in what's called a reliquary.
		It's the exact size of the Shroud.
		The company, this is fascinating information, the company that creates all the materials for the International Space Station is based in Turin.
		That same company created the box that preserves the Shroud.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Where is it in a church?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		It's in the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in this reliquary., this box, you can walk in and see it today, but it's a covered box and it's 99% argon gas because the two enemies of the shroud right now are light and oxygen.
		And so they're preserving it.
		So the Catholic Church has no interest in educating people about the shroud.
		Again, I'm grateful that you're having me on.
		Their only interest is in conservation.
		So they're conserving the shroud right now.
		The shroud hasn't been on display since 2015 publicly.
		We don't know when it will be on display again.
		And yet it's this key to the whole message of Christianity.
		I mean, it's the death, burial and resurrection in an artifact.
		Nothing else does that outside of the Bible, except I'm confused.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why would a Christian church want to hide what appears to be physical proof of the resurrection?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Of the core story of its religion.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What's the answer?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I wish I knew.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Who makes that decision?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		The Pope.
		So technically the Pope is the custodian of the Shroud.
		And that's because it was left to the Pope, not the Catholic Church.
		And I was there during Conclave, which was an interesting experience.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But I just don't, it doesn't seem to make any sense.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Do you think they're worried that it would turn out to be fake?.
unidentified		Right.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I can't speak, I don't know what's in their minds.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But just to be clear, the, the, as far as you know, the shroud itself, the actual linen cloth, has never been radiocarbon dated, just the patch.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Just the upper left corner, which is a contaminated sample, so it was the patched sample, not a fine linen sample.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so not the real frame.
unidentified		Correct.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And that's not just me, that's Paula de Lazaro, that's Bruno Barbaras, I mean, there's Ray Rogers, I would encourage people to study these scientists.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Is there any way, does radiocarbon dating destroy the sample?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Right.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		So I mean, 25% of CR 14 dating is thrown out anyway.
		So my area of speciality is paleography and codecology, how we date Bible manuscripts.
		And we date Bible manuscripts through paleography, not through carbon dating.
		We date it through handwriting styles to get a date range for roughly 100 years to date Bible manuscripts.
		We don't do that because, to your point, excellently, it destroys the actual artifact.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Is there any other way to date it?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		In fact, it's been dated.
		That's the thing.
		Again, thank you so much for asking these questions, Tucker.
		It has been dated in four other scientific ways that conclusively all show that it's a first-century artifact.
		We have breaking news on your show.
		Wide angle X-ray scattering from the Institute of Crystallography in Rome has shown that the shroud has been getting old.
		It's been decomposing.
		It's been degenerating for two thousand years.
		They took a sample of a shroud from Masada that's conclusively dated to 8070, and they compared the shroud of Turin using wide angle waxes, wide angle X-ray scattering.
		This is the Institute of Crystallography.
		And what they found is that the samples have been both getting old at the same time for two thousand years.
		So it's not been getting old for seven hundred years.
		It's been getting old for two thousand years.
		There was another study done.
		Linen is made from flax.
		and it has a substance called vanillin in it, vanillin.
		And it takes hundreds, if not thousands of years for there to be no trace elements of vanillin in the fine linen.
		Guess how much vanillin there is in the Shroud of Turin?
		Zero.
		So if it was seven hundred years old, there would still be traces of vanillin chemically.
		There's no vanillin in the Shroud.
		So I don't want to bore you with these details, but they're very important.
		They're not very important at all.
		There have been other scientific studies that have been suppressed that conclude all of the other studies to answer your question have proven that the Shroud is two thousand years old from a scientific standpoint.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I think it's pretty wild that the authorities, the British Museum, is that what you said?
		Right.
		Would hide relevant data.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Suppress it for twenty nine years.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the process.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Wow, how can you do, how is that science?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How, I don't understand.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		One of the lab officials, Tucker, I mean, this is all, I mean, if people just read for themselves and think for themselves.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I mean, one of the professors who wrote on the chalkboard, twelve sixty to thirteen ninety, was given a five million dollar endowed shared right after this announcement in 1988.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		By whom?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		By his cabal that was backing him.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Huh.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		So again, people need to follow where the evidence leads.
		And again, I'm following forensic science.
		I'm following the iconography.
		I'm following, I mean, the blood samples alone, the hematology.
		If we wanted to fake the shroud, do you realize we'd have to kill someone?
		We would have to get blood, premortem blood, and then we would have to stab them in the heart and get postmortem blood and translucent pulmonary edema and smear that.
		I mean, and then we'd have to know that there are certain plants that only bloom in Jerusalem in April.
		We would then have to know the provenance of the shroud.
		I mean, there are over thirty things a hoaxer would have to know to fake the shroud.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And then you'd have to apply it in some unknown way, right?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		It can't be replicated even now.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And then we would have to know how we change two microns deep, so surface level.
		And, you know, every, so we have a traveling exhibit right now that we're doing where I have fifty artefacts that show these things through infographics.
		And we have panel thirteen in our traveling Who is the Man of the Shroud exhibit shows each fiber, each thread of, has around 150 to 200 fibers.
		So you think about 0.2 microns of each fiber of each thread.
		I mean, that's how superficial the image is.
		We couldn't fake that.
		No one can.
		We don't have the technology to do that.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		I just, I'm fixed on the idea that the custodians of the science around this at the British Museum, which is the most famous museum in the world, whose job is to search for the truth, that's what science is, the pursuit of truth, that they would hide facts.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And lead the public on purpose.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So that, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised because this is a religious artifact.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		That speaks to the veracity of the world's greatest religion, which has many opponents.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So it does raise questions about other archaeological finds that are relevant to Christianity.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And the big one, of course, are the Qumran scrolls, the Dead Sea scrolls found right after the Second World War by a shepherd.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		1948, a Bedouin.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a Bedouin shepherd boy throws a stone into a cave.
		Here's this something pottery breaking goes up there and all these jars with these scrolls in them.
		That, of course, was the same year that Israel became a nation, 1948, and they become the custody or some of them become the custody of the Israeli government.
		And they're written right around the time of Jesus, probably a little before.
		Correct me if I'm wrong on the fact.
		50 BC, 50 BC, this monastic community called the Quran community in Quran.
		Right.
		And there, you know, many portions of what we refer to as the Old Testament.
		At least that's what we've been told.
		But then I've always wondered like these are in the custody largely of a government and they slow rolled.
		I mean, they could just like take pictures of every single fragment and put them on the internet.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And anyway, there are a lot of questions.
		But my main question to you, I think you know something about this, is do we have all the Quran scrolls like that that are in custody?
		Are they available to the public and to scholars?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Because they keep coming to light.
		I mean, there's the Cairo Geneza fragments.
		So there's also Dead Sea Scrolls outside of the Dead Sea, if that makes sense.
		So like there's the Cairo Geneza fragments.
		There's this, this brings up a great question.
		I mean, the antiquity of all artefacts is sketchy, to be clear.
		And, you know, when you look at the great artefacts from history, how people come into control of these artefacts, there's a lot of money involved.
		There's a lot of corruption involved, candidly.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But could it be, is it plausible, or is there any evidence that scripture from the Kumaran cache, the Dead Sea Scrolls, has been suppressed?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Oh, certainly, absolutely.
		Certainly.
		There's absolutely ways in which, I mean, there's a demonic hatred towards anything biblical.
		I mean, I've not just in the Dead Sea Scrolls community.
		I mean, I've seen this with all biblical fragments.
		There's a hyper skepticism towards biblical fragments that a framework, a worldview that we don't foist on anything else except biblical fragments.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		You know, as long as they're available to the public, I'm okay with that.
unidentified		Right.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		As long as people can have the information, decide for themselves.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But my concern is that they're not available to to the public.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, I worked in the Griffith Paprology Lab in Oxford, which is in formerly known as the Sackler Library.
		They took the Sackler name off it.
		But when I was there, it was the Sackler.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Killing a lot of people, yeah.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		So now it's just the Ashmolean.
		So in the Griffith Paprology Lab, I mean, we have a half million fragments that have not been categorized, they have not been cataloged.
		So, I mean, I say this as one who does this.
		I mean, yeah, there are biblical fragments that have not been brought to light.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's a great question.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		How hard is it to take a picture of them and put it on the internet?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, and there are great people doing it.
		I mean, my friend Dan Wallace at the Center for Study of New Testament Manuscripts, their entire aim is to photograph as many biblical texts as they can.
		and to make them available.
		So there are great groups out there that are doing it, but the hoops they have to jump through with these libraries and where these manuscripts are located.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Why would it be controversial to take, you know, a two thousand year old fragment of Scripture, take a picture of it and upload it on the internet?
		Why would that be?
		Why would someone want to prevent that?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I can only speak from my experience and so many of the papirologists with whom I've worked, so many of those are people that work with the papyrus.
		So biblical fragments are papyrus first, and then that was the original work of the Scripture, and then of course scrolls.
		Honestly, so many of them.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So papyrus made from plant, papyrus plants.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		that grow in the west.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		The early church was innovative.
		It used something called a codex.
		It didn't take scrolls from Jews.
		It wanted to have this book form with the writing on the recto and verso, the front and back of each page.
		And it was cheap.
		It was inexpensive.
		It could be hidden, unlike these scrolls that were, I mean, I have Jewish scrolls.
		They're beautiful, but they're heavy.
		They're hard to transport.
		They're only written on one side.
		You had to unroll the whole thing.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And they're made of animal skins?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Right, parchment.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Parchment would be?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Bovine.
		They're all bovine.
		They're an animal.
		They're calf.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		So.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		But.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But any of this stuff is not, I mean, like, what would be the justification for keeping it from the public?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I mean, so much of it comes out of the Enlightenment movement of Europe.
		I mean, coming out with what we called higher criticism, the German scholars, the height of German scholarship in the 1800s that Jesus didn't exist.
		If he did, he was probably gay with a mortgage.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No, I get it, I get it, man.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		That you have this Pontius Pilate didn't exist.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		And so much of that influenced modernity in a way that, I mean, has wreaked havoc on all of our Div college.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Sure, but I'm just saying now, twenty twenty five, if you have a bunch of scrolls that are found in a cave in 1948.
		that speak directly to, you know, the world's great religions.
		How can a government be allowed to hide those from?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		But you're immediately accused of being a sensationalist.
		I've been ridiculed and attacked for bringing the shroud to light.
		I mean, you're called a popularizer.
		I mean, there, this is a very high view, hyper skeptical community that catalogs biblical manuscripts.
		All you have to do is go to Society of Biblical Literature with five thousand Bible scholars to see how crazy some of those people are.
		I'm sure there is a hatred towards truth.
		I mean, the man whom I defended in my thesis, I write about this in my book, Body of Proof.
		I've spent three years studying the physical body body resurrection of Jesus.
		I've written a 93,000 words Uberlieferang's Geschichte of Resurrection Belief in the Judeo Christian Motive.
		And I come to my Viva where in England it's passed fail.
		So if you fail your PhD Viva in England, you can never do a redo.
		You get what's called an M-fill and there's no do over.
		So I come to my defense, Tucker, and I have a Bible scholar who did not believe in the miraculous, did not believe in the historicity of the resurrection.
		And he looks at me and he says, Jeremiah, do you really believe the resurrection happened or is that just imaginative storytelling?
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, that doesn't surprise me at all.
		all, you know, that people who, I mean, how many episcopal priests believe in God?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, none.
unidentified		None.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		No, I know some who do, but like the minority.
		Yeah, that doesn't shock me that they would, you know, that corruption exists.
		It's the suppression of information.
		It's Wikipedia that drives me crazy.
		It's gatekeeping information that prevents the public and interested parties researchers from even knowing.
		that that information exists.
		Like that is so sinister.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I'm a victim of it.
		I mean, that I was taught that the shroud was a Catholic relic and there was no science behind it at all.
		I mean, I was taught that at the intellectual Jerusalem that is Oxford.
		I mean, so I'm a victim of this.
		I understand it completely.
		And I guess I'm numb to it, Tucker, that it's my world.
		I've been in it professionally in the Academy since 2009.
		It's just a miracle if truth actually comes out, and that's why I'm so grateful for your program.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Do you have hope that there will be further study of the Shroud, or do we not need any?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing all I can to make that happen.
		This is changing people's lives, this truth, because when we look at this mystery, it actually reveals the message of Christianity, God's love for us and that He sent Christ to die in our place and resurrect from the dead.
		That's the gospel.
		That's the good news.
		And that this event actually happened in history.
		Jesus physically, bodily, rose from the grave.
		And there are great reasons to believe that.
		I have another artifact I want to give you, though, Tucker.
unidentified		Yeah.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		I want you to hold the replica of the spear.
		So this is amazing.
		This is a replica.
		There's a weight to it.
		Yeah.
		Now you mentioned that they didn't break Jesus' legs, but let's make sure he's really dead.
		So they take this spear, this lance, and they stab Jesus according to John's gospel Gospel, this is not a scientific or medical journal.
		It says that blood and water came out of the body of Jesus.
		Jesus is stabbed between rib five and six, and we see that reflected on the shroud with the post mortem type AB blood that pools just above that triangle, right parallel with rib five and six.
		And you're holding in your hand the spear that would have inflicted that punishment on Jesus' dead corpse by the Roman executioners.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Damn.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And so the spear probably had an iron tip on it.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Exactly, and it punctured about three centimeters wide.
		And again, the Scripture said, Isaiah foretold it, by his stripes were healed, by his stripes were vindicated.
		And we see that reflected in the spear, the lance wound that Jesus' body.
		And we see that reflected on the shroud, which is just fascinating to think about.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Last question, are there other physical artefacts extant that you're satisfied are genuine, whose providence is knowable that point to the historical reality of Jesus?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		We have an embarrassment of riches, of artefacts., archaeology.
		This is the beauty of Christianity.
		This is the beauty of our faith, Tucker, that our faith intersects with archaeology, where I often say that, and I say this in body proof, archaeology is Christianity's closest cousin.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		What's amazing is, to what extent can Christians, I mean, because all this is taking place in a non Christian country.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And well, I mean, I know atheist Jews who are archaeologists, and they use six sources to make sure their archaeological sites exhibit verisimilitude, that they're digging in the right place.
		And you've probably heard of these sources, Tucker.
		Are you ready for this?
		These are atheist or agnostic Jewish archaeologists in the land of Israel.
		There are around a hundred archaeological sites at any time.
		Most of them are secular, completely secularists, but they still use six sources to make sure they're digging in the right spot.
		Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the Book of Acts, and Joseph Flavius.
		So if the critical archaeologists are going to use our sources because they're so good, I'm going to use them too.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, why should we try?
		I mean, if you have people who are, you know, opposed to Christianity, I mean, is there oversight?
		Like, are there, do we know that historical information isn't being suppressed?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, there needs to be more integrity to it, for sure.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Are there people who aren't attached to that government who are on the archaeological sites watching the stuff?
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		There are, I have great friends who are there who have incredible credibility, like my archaeologist friend Scott Stripling.
		He's the lead digger at Shiloh, or what the rest of the world calls Shiloh.
		He's in season five.
		So there's great archaeologists out there doing great work, but there are fewer and far between.
		That's why we need more people to be, to do what we do.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Germyn, thank you.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Thank you all for having me.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Love your program, love you.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		And this is a horrifying device.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		Thanks.
jeremiah johnston ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
tucker carlson ▲ ● ▼		So it turns out that YouTube is suppressing this show.
		On one level, that's not surprising, that's what they do.
		But on another level, it's shocking with everything that's going on in the world right now, all the change taking place in our economy and our politics, with the wars on the cusp of fighting right now, Google has decided you should have less information rather than more.
		And that is totally wrong.
		It's immoral.
		What can you do about it?
		Well, we could whine about it.
		That's a waste of time.
		We're not in charge of Google.
		Or we could find a way around it, a way that you could actually get information that is true, not intentionally deceptive.
		The way to do that on YouTube, we think, is to subscribe to our channel.
		Subscribe, click the little bell icon to be notified when we upload and share this video.
		That way you'll have a much higher chance of hearing actual news and information.

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