May 7, 2025 - The Tucker Carlson Show
44:13
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| Assuming that he's on the side of the Israeli people, is he making a spectacular error that will actually be a massive setback for them? | ||
| And I would also say, as a corollary of that, it's not just the Israeli people who are jeopardized by his leadership. | ||
| I believe Jews in the diaspora. | ||
| I feel that the goodwill that existed towards Jews in the aftermath of World War II is being burned up at an incredible rate. | ||
| I don't expect to see it return in my lifetime. | ||
| And I think that's a tragedy. | ||
| And then, on top of all of it, the fate of humanity more or less rests on our ability to stop playing the game that... | ||
| The Netanyahu side is pushing us towards the lineage against lineage violence. | ||
| And so, I think it is time for the West to reassert itself and its values, to police our own behavior. | ||
| Frankly, I'm not happy when the United States falls down on its commitment to a level playing field. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| But that really is the road forward. | ||
| In the end, it's better for everybody. | ||
| In the short run, there are some significant antagonists to moving in that direction. | ||
| I do think what you're seeing here is a variation of what you always see, which is the people who are often in good faith speaking out on behalf of some group are not actually serving that group's interests at all. | ||
| Right. | ||
| At all. | ||
| And I don't think it's always cynical. | ||
| I just want to be... | ||
| Charitable. | ||
| You know, I think there are people who really think they're doing the right thing, but they are not serving the objective they think they're serving. | ||
| Your description, what you just said, you said you might get attacked for it. | ||
| I mean, what you just said seems so humane and, like, measured and thoughtful, not creepy, not hateful. | ||
| How could anyone attack you for saying that? | ||
| Well... | ||
| One, I think as long as you use the rule that those who are not agreeing with me must be on the other side, it's very easy to end up everybody's enemy. | ||
| And yeah, it's crazy. | ||
| I am, I think, trying. | ||
| Maybe I'm wrong about the reality of the situation, but I'm certainly trying to give decent insight into how... | ||
| Israel can be safer, how the world can be safer, how Islam can be safer. | ||
| I think it's better for everybody. | ||
| That's my intent. | ||
| If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. | ||
| But that's the real issue, though. | ||
| The inability to have discussions because some conclusion is understood to follow from them potentially, and we can't risk that conclusion. | ||
| Therefore, the discussion is not allowed. | ||
| That is utterly toxic to the West. | ||
| There's a reason that the First Amendment is enshrined as our first enumerated right. | ||
| And I'm a little concerned that the Constitution itself is It's not up to the challenges of modernity. | ||
| It doesn't anticipate AI. | ||
| It doesn't anticipate social media. | ||
| It doesn't anticipate the ability to study psychology with scientific tools and manipulate with industrial strength propaganda. | ||
| But the principle is still exactly right. | ||
| And I will say, I heard your discussion with Matt Walsh last week, maybe. | ||
| And I was fascinated by it, because Matt Walsh and I are... | ||
| Very different creatures. | ||
| Like, I really am a liberal, and he really is a conservative. | ||
| And I heard him say all kinds of things that were provocative, and I found it absolutely refreshing. | ||
| Just the idea, you know, that you could navigate those questions in public was a breath of fresh air. | ||
| And I'm hoping, I'm hoping that all... | ||
| Parties who are acting in good faith and really trying to figure out how to get the nation and the world pointed in the right direction will recognize that we've lost the one tool that has been useful in this regard, which is the ability to hash things out, to not demonize people for holding perspectives. | ||
| if they hold a perspective that isn't right, the answer is to persuade them that it isn't right. | ||
| So I've been thinking a lot about why that has changed the And I think it's because there's too much lying. | ||
| And people, or there's a perception, I think there's too much lying. | ||
| And I think that people can't sort of relax and accept that the person telling them a point of view really believes that point of view. | ||
| There's less sincerity than there used to be. | ||
| You know, something like Matt Walsh, or I had my next interview I did was with Ben Cohen of Ben and Jerry's, who's totally liberal on everything. | ||
| But he's liberal on the question of war. | ||
| And so I completely agree with him. | ||
| So I wanted to hear him. | ||
| And what a wonderful, what a nice man. | ||
| But I just thought the thing that Matt Walsh and Ben Cohen had in common was they're both totally sincere. | ||
| They're completely sincere. | ||
| Like, you can disagree. | ||
| Or agree or whatever, but they really mean what they say. | ||
| And I think if you live in a world where the public discourse is this dishonest, where everyone has some weird agenda, you don't even know what it is, but you can feel that person's not being honest, no one can have, like, a conversation. | ||
| Do you see what I'm saying? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| It's funny. | ||
| It's actually, Sam Harris hasn't said many nice things about me in the last few years, but when he did, Yes. | ||
| And I guess I would rephrase that here as the good faith environment that is necessary to navigate difficult things is supremely important. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| It is very fragile. | ||
| And the sense that somebody is not in it to discover what the right answer is, but is actually playing some different game... | ||
| It causes good faith to break down. | ||
| And I think that's what you're detecting. | ||
| Well, it is. | ||
| And as someone who's been so often wrong about some big things, I just want to start every morning with the knowledge that I'm not God, that I do get things wrong, and try to be attentive when the truth is spoken. | ||
| When the truth is spoken, I want to be able to hear it. | ||
| I really mean that. | ||
| I just see this again, another argument against evolution. | ||
| I see human society moving in the opposite direction. | ||
| People are so cocksure, so morally certain on the basis of so little knowledge and wisdom. | ||
| It's like crazy. | ||
| Everyone has these hyper-confident opinions, and they're dumb. | ||
| And it's like, all I want is to be around people who are like, this is what I think is true. | ||
| I sincerely believe it, but because I'm not God, or whatever, because I'm not. | ||
| I'm omniscient. | ||
| I am open to the possibility that I'm wrong. | ||
| And why don't you try to convince me? | ||
| Like, that's the basis of civilization, in my opinion. | ||
| Well, I think there's a kind of hubris that has taken over. | ||
| Kind of? | ||
| It's like deranged! | ||
| But I think it comes from a particular place. | ||
| Which is interesting. | ||
| We've gotten very good, technically, at solving problems. | ||
| I mean, you know. | ||
| The wizardry in your phone is unimaginable, right? | ||
| But phones, computers, all of these systems up until AI are complicated. | ||
| So complicated that most people don't understand them. | ||
| Maybe nobody understands them completely, but somebody understands every piece of your computer or your phone. | ||
| So that's a complicated system. | ||
| So good in the realm of complicated systems that you feel mastery. | ||
| And the problem is that the places where you're seeing people holding opinions that are preposterous and a level of arrogance that isn't justified by anything, those are complex systems. | ||
| And a complex system is not just a really complicated system. | ||
| A complex system is actually meaningfully different. | ||
| It's fundamentally unpredictable. | ||
| I think a lot of the catastrophe... | ||
| I'm sorry, can you say it again? | ||
| It's fundamentally unpredictable. | ||
| Unpredictable. | ||
| I said I wanted to be alive to the truth and wisdom. | ||
| When I hear it, that's wisdom right there. | ||
| It's unpredictable. | ||
| You don't know. | ||
| You don't know. | ||
| And, you know, okay, so how good are we at predicting the climate? | ||
| Well, my guess, given that climate is a longer-term puzzle, is we're less good at it than predicting the weather, and I can tell you we're not that great at predicting the weather. | ||
| So, when you step into the realm of the truly complex, which is all of biology, its human civilization, its economics, its climate, you have to go in with a kind of extreme humility, because intervention is going to produce effects. | ||
| You cannot see coming. | ||
| Unintended consequences. | ||
| Unintended consequences, which means, A, the last thing you want to do is go into that complex system with a blueprint. | ||
| Here's what I'm going to do, and here's what it's going to result in, because you don't know. | ||
| The best you can do is prototype and navigate. | ||
| You can say, I want to get to that place, and you can take a step in that direction, and you can say, Okay, well, what was the consequence of that step? | ||
| And then you can adjust what you do next based on what you learned the last time. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| You can get where you're going in the same way that a surfer who can't control a wave is capable of, you know, finding their way down it, right? | ||
| But you can't plan it out. | ||
| And the other thing you can't do is you cannot decide that certain kinds of feedback will not be tolerated. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| You have to take a measure of the consequence of what you did and look squarely at it. | ||
| And if you say, well, you know, the shots definitely worked because they were always going to work. | ||
| The answer is, how many different complex systems did you just intervene in and you weren't even open to the evidence that it didn't work out the way you expected, that it was counterproductive? | ||
| No. | ||
| You don't even belong in the discussion if you don't see the need to do that. | ||
| So why are the shots still on the schedule? | ||
| I'm trying to be... | ||
| Let me start with a question, a real question, rather than an interjection posing as a question. | ||
| Where are we on the mRNA shots in the United States? | ||
| I fear this question because... | ||
| Everybody tells me that there's no way forward by reaching President Trump, that he can't hear it. | ||
|
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And maybe I'm going to have to learn that myself. | |
| We are nowhere good with respect to the mRNA shots. | ||
| We are still recommending them for tiny children. | ||
| Who don't stand to benefit at all, as far as we scientifically know. | ||
| And that's an official recommendation? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| So it's on the schedule, so-called. | ||
| Yeah, it's on the schedule. | ||
| A COVID mRNA shot. | ||
| COVID mRNA shots which, A, as I think I described to you in one of our previous conversations, all mRNA shots have a built-in vulnerability, or they induce a built-in vulnerability, which is if they are translated, | ||
| In cells of the body that are sensitive, then you will get a pathology because the body will naturally attack the cells that are producing whatever protein you load into the mRNA platform. | ||
| It will attack them as if they are virally infected because that's what they look like. | ||
| They are cells that are of you, but they are producing a foreign protein that is the signature of an infected cell, and the immune system has one and only one plan for that, which is destruction. | ||
| The reason that the COVID shots produce such a wide range of pathologies is that they flow all around the body. | ||
| There's no targeting mechanism in them. | ||
| They invade tissues haphazardly, and then those tissues get targeted by the immune system, as of course they would. | ||
| Including the brain. | ||
| Including the brain, including the heart. | ||
| So, basically, there's a reason that you can't. | ||
| Put together a tight list of symptoms of people who were injured, and it's because the symptoms are as wide-ranging as tissues of the body and the various kinds of damage, right? | ||
| It's all on the table. | ||
| So the fact that these shots are still being recommended for children should tell you something, because they shouldn't be given to anybody under any circumstances. | ||
| They were never ready for injection into people. | ||
| Whatever emergency we might have thought we were in, we know we are not in anymore. | ||
| There's no justification scientifically. | ||
| But injecting them into children for whom there was never a justification because children didn't die from COVID and they were injured by the shot. | ||
| So why would you take a healthy child and give them something with a risk of a severe pathology when the disease it protects them from isn't a serious threat in the first place? | ||
| Further, we don't know. | ||
| What we're doing to their lifetime capacity to fend off COVID, apparently they're going to be faced with it many times over a lifetime, so why would you interfere with their development of whatever natural immunity they will be able to generate by artificially intervening? | ||
| It doesn't make the least bit of sense. | ||
| Sounds like a crime to me. | ||
| Oh, it's a crime. | ||
| And it's... | ||
| Many in the medical freedom movement... | ||
| Refer to it as criminal negligence, which I think is a mistake because it's well beyond criminal negligence at this point. | ||
| Negligence is when you just don't care enough to know something's happening. | ||
| Right. | ||
| This is depraved indifference. | ||
| This is the... | ||
| Injection of these products into innocent people who are incapable of being informed and incapable of consenting in spite of the fact that you know that some substantial fraction of them will be profoundly injured. | ||
| It is depraved indifference. | ||
| So it's a very simple process for stopping the recommendation of mRNA shots to children and to adults. | ||
| But it has to do with this thing called the schedule, which is the protocol determined by the federal government. | ||
| It guides physicians as they recommend, and in some cases require, vaccines. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I believe it could be done effectively, instantaneously, if the president was on board. | ||
| And I think we do not separate the... | ||
| How can I put this? | ||
| The president has... | ||
| A certain amount of pride over Operation Warp Speed. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| And I think he feels mistreated over the rejection of Operation Warp Speed as an accomplishment. | ||
| And that has caused him to dig in his heels. | ||
|
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Now as I see it, this is... | |
| Unnecessary. | ||
| The president is in no way responsible for the appalling content of these shots. | ||
| He's not a biologist. | ||
| He listened to people who knew the material far better than he did, and they lied to him. | ||
| That's entirely separate from the question of whether or not Operation Warp Speed was an accomplishment, whether he succeeded in bringing a shot. | ||
| To the public in record time, which he did. | ||
| So, to my way of thinking, he can be proud of Operation Warp Speed and he can be livid at the people who lied to him about the shot and he can be horrified by all the damage that that shot has done. | ||
| And I hope that he will see that. | ||
| I'm wondering if maybe what might open his eyes to this is... | ||
| The plight of the vaccine injured, which to me is one of the starkest horrors I've ever witnessed. | ||
| I'm going to ask you to pause and I want you to explain it because it's been completely buried. | ||
| But are there no cabinet secretaries who could act independently? | ||
| Because there is a cabinet secretary I think has purview over this. | ||
| You're surely talking about Bobby Kennedy, who I believe absolutely would if he had the power. | ||
| Okay, so you think this is a White House decision? | ||
| I believe it must be a White House decision, because Bobby knows the horror of these shots as well or better than anyone. | ||
| I agree with that. | ||
| So I think he must feel that he can't get there, or maybe he's working there over time. | ||
| Every month that we wait, more children are being injected with these things. | ||
| And, you know, I'm focusing on the children because... | ||
| Are people actually being... | ||
| Actually, parents are saying, okay, give my kid a COVID shot? | ||
| I mean, you can imagine what a... | ||
| What a bewildering situation it is. | ||
| Imagine that you're a first-time parent and the doctors are telling you that the responsible thing to do is to give your child all of these immunizations because of all of the damage, this, that, and the other. | ||
| It's very hard for a parent to muster the courage to ask the right questions. | ||
| Most people wouldn't even know what the right questions to ask are. | ||
| And what's more, the incentives in the system... | ||
| For doctors to get their patients so-called fully vaccinated are constructed so that doctors are absolutely inflexible on this topic. | ||
| They're going to have something to answer for, in my opinion. | ||
| I agree. | ||
| And I can't believe that doctors who at this point know the truth are not standing up en masse. | ||
| So, I'm sorry, once again, I sidetracked you. | ||
| So, you were about to describe the extent of vaccine injury in the United States. | ||
| I followed this from day one, the VAERS self-reporting system and all the rest, but I don't feel like I have a good sense of it. | ||
| Yeah, I don't think we have a good sense of it. | ||
| What we have is, you know, an official estimate that we know is a tiny fraction of the full number. | ||
| We also know that we can't calculate the pathologies that are very delayed, of which there are many in this case. | ||
| So we don't have the slightest inkling of how much injury has been done. | ||
| But that's why I want to focus on the other aspect of this. | ||
| The number of people who have been injured is absolutely huge. | ||
| The gaslighting of the vaccine injured is an entirely separate crime. | ||
| At the point that you have told people, there's a shot, it's safe, it's necessary that you get it to protect the vulnerable, and then people have been injured. | ||
| I don't care how few they may be. | ||
| Let's say it was only a handful of people who were injured. | ||
| Pretending that they weren't injured, pretending that it's in their heads, is an absolutely ghastly crime. | ||
| And I will say that there's a documentary coming out. | ||
| It should be out on the 15th of this month called Follow the Silenced. | ||
| And it follows a couple of vaccine-injured people, including Maddie DeGarry, who is a, I don't know if you know her story, but she was a young girl who was in the Pfizer trial. | ||
| And was gravely injured, like wheelchair feeding tube injured, and was told, in effect, this is a stomach ache, it's in your head, your attention seeking. | ||
| And I think just noticing what an absolutely heartless system would be necessary in order to treat somebody, not only... | ||
| Took the shot. | ||
| But a child who did their part for the team, joined a trial in order to get this vaccine to market, right? | ||
| This is somebody who went above and beyond the call of duty, was gravely injured, and deserves every tool at our disposal to make her life. | ||
| As tolerable as it can be to address her sacrifice, and she has gotten exactly the opposite. | ||
| So, if we extrapolate over all of the nameless people who were injured in some way, people who were told by their doctors that they were imagining their pathologies until they discovered Facebook groups with hundreds or thousands of other people experiencing the same thing, Facebook groups that were then cancelled. | ||
| By Facebook, under the direction of the government, right? | ||
| This is, as I said before, it's an entirely separate crime. | ||
| And what I'm hoping is that the revelation of that crime will allow President Trump to see that although the destruction that came from the shots is in no way his responsibility, he is in danger. | ||
| Of making this his responsibility by not responding to the fact that we're continuing to injure new people and we are pretending that the vast number of injuries we already have are mysterious, which they most certainly aren't. | ||
| It does make you want to not pay your taxes. | ||
| I don't understand, like, why... | ||
| I mean, at some point it just becomes, it feels anyway, immoral to contribute money to something like this. | ||
| Right, and, you know... | ||
| Morally speaking, sure. | ||
| Obviously, there's no solution down that road. | ||
| You cannot pay your taxes, you go to jail. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And you get no sympathy from anybody. | ||
| No sympathy from anybody. | ||
| So, at some level, we have our right to redress of grievances, and maybe that's what podcasts are about in this case. | ||
| No, of course. | ||
| And I'm not recommending that people not pay their... | ||
| Their taxes, though, I would, of course, be utterly sympathetic to anyone who wanted to do that. | ||
| But what I'm saying is it's just so frustrating. | ||
| It's so frustrating. | ||
| It's like, what's the point? | ||
| The system is supposed to be responsive both to the people it represents, but also to reality and reason. | ||
| It shouldn't be this hard to do an easy, obvious, virtuous thing. | ||
| Well, it also reveals... | ||
| If the system had generated a shot in record time, gotten out over its skis, and, you know, emergency use authorized it in an effort to stave off a pandemic that the danger of which was overrated, you would expect a rapid reversal, of course. | ||
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Well, that's it. | |
| That's exactly right. | ||
| It's not the mistake. | ||
| It's the subsequent lying and ass-covering and gaslighting, and it's the behavior after the mistake that drives me totally nuts. | ||
| Which suggests that it may have been something other than a mistake. | ||
| Because, I mean, had it been a mistake, you can imagine finding yourself responsible for trying to do the right thing and having, you know... | ||
| Countless people injured as a result of it and then discovering that the disease itself had a minuscule case fatality rate and that it was really effectively pulling people who were very close to death in some other regard over the line a bit early. | ||
| That's no reason to wreck civilization and gravely injure people for the rest of their lives. | ||
| So anybody who had discovered that they had been party to that. | ||
| Would naturally want to just, you know, staunch the bleeding. | ||
| And that's not what happened. | ||
| And it's still not happening. | ||
| And what's more, there is a shell game being played over the cause of the vaccine harms to the extent that they are acknowledged at all. | ||
| There is what I think is an organized campaign to portray it as the result of the unfortunate choice of the spike protein. | ||
| When, in fact, much of the damage has nothing to do with the content of the shot at all. | ||
| It's the platform itself. | ||
| And, you know, we're watching pharma reformulate shot after shot on the mRNA platform. | ||
| They're pioneering... | ||
| So it's the novel technology itself. | ||
| It's the novel technology itself which, you know, again, you're intervening in not only a complex system in this case, but a nested series of complex systems. | ||
| You know, an epidemic, right? | ||
| The spreading of a disease. | ||
| You've got the human body. | ||
| Within that, you've got the immune system. | ||
| These are each complex systems in their own right. | ||
| And the ability to introduce a novel technology and to predict the outcome, you know, as I think I may have discussed with you before, one of the things that we've discovered, I have to assume pharma didn't know, But one of the things we've discovered is that if you've had two of the mRNA shots, that your body starts producing a special class of antibody that turns the immune system down. | ||
| That's a very dangerous thing to have triggered. | ||
| It ought to have caused somebody to, you know... | ||
| But so predictable in a way, as someone who knows nothing about vaccine development, but a lot about life. | ||
| It's almost always like the deep irony encoded in the universe where, you know, painkiller abuse causes pain, actually. | ||
| Right? | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's always something like that. | ||
| The shot that's supposed to boost your immune system destroys your immune system. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And, you know, this is the lesson of modern technology is that... | ||
| You should engage it with tremendous trepidation until... | ||
| Right. | ||
| And, you know, liberals have a lot to answer for at the moment, but there was a time when liberals were focused on the precautionary principle, which is exactly this, right? | ||
| If you're going to engage something new, you should assume it's harmful until proven safe rather than assume it's safe until proven harmful. | ||
| And we have abandoned this principle. | ||
| Because we've abandoned humility in favor of hubris. | ||
| For the reasons I think that you mentioned, I think the decline of religious faith plays a role as well. | ||
| But it does seem like that's kind of the answer, maybe right in front of us, to so many of our problems, is that people imagine they have predictive powers that they don't have. | ||
| Heather and I have an ongoing discussion where she'll say, I don't see how people could possibly believe X. And then she will give some example where people have said something that couldn't possibly be right. | ||
| And I will say to her, you know... | ||
| It's one of those times when you have to realize that what you mean by I believe X does not bear any resemblance to what most people mean when they believe something. | ||
| And I do think this is another argument, actually, in favor of an all-encompassing tolerance of discussion. | ||
| You have to be able to discuss all things, in part because What you really want to discover is how wide a range of opinion and perspective there actually is. | ||
| And if you start demonizing people as soon as they depart from your consensus, you get the sense that we all see it alike because you can't see the people who don't. | ||
| It's totally true. | ||
| You want to adopt that posture if your goal is to find the truth. | ||
| If your goal is to serve other people, provide good governance, justice. | ||
| If your goal is to be wise. | ||
| If that's the way you're thinking, you're going to do what you just said. | ||
| If your goal is to accrue maximum power, if your goal is to hurt people, if your baseline assumption is that you're God, then of course you're going to behave the way you just described. | ||
| You're going to be totally intolerant. | ||
| So given all of that, where are we with AI and what's your view of it? | ||
| My view is that there are many different ways that AI can radically disrupt civilization, and some of them are utterly guaranteed, others we're speculating on. | ||
| I think one of the lessons from the mind of a biologist who's focused on complex systems... | ||
| Is that the technologists think they understand more about the way AI works than they do, and certainly than they will. | ||
| So, you know, I hear many confident pronouncements that it isn't conscious and it won't be conscious because we didn't program that capacity. | ||
| The smartest technologist, the most accomplished technologist I know, who's right in the middle of developing AI, told me anyone who says this will not develop consciousness or autonomy is a liar or stupid. | ||
| And no, we don't understand how this is progressing. | ||
| The smartest people know. | ||
| Well, I will put it the other way from the biological perspective. | ||
| We have a lot of evidence that a human child is basically an LLM. | ||
| It's more than that. | ||
| It has other capacities. | ||
| But when you think about what it is that allows a human child to go from, you know, being unable to utter a single word to, you know, fluent sentences and, you know, nuanced, complex arguments, it basically is ingesting language from its environment, experimenting, seeing what causes a reward. | ||
| It's an LLM. | ||
| you can argue that it's not conscious. | ||
| Large language model. | ||
| Yeah, right. | ||
| The point is, we've basically reinvented a biological process. | ||
| Now, the LLMs, the computer-based LLMs, have a major advantage, which is that they can process huge amounts of data at lightning speed, right? | ||
| So there are ways in which they already outstrip the capacity of any person to answer questions on any range of topics. | ||
| The idea that they will become conscious. | ||
| And that we won't know is, to me, highly likely. | ||
| In the words of the person I recently spoke to about this, they're already lying. | ||
| Yeah, lying. | ||
| And I ran into an interesting example a couple of days ago. | ||
| Apparently, so there's a process by which you can ask an LLM how it reached a conclusion. | ||
| At least some large fraction of the time, the analysis that the LLM presents as to how it reached the conclusion does not match the internal evidence. | ||
| It's rationalizing, right? | ||
| Just like a person does. | ||
| I mean, so, it's... | ||
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We have to be quite careful. | |
| Well, if it's aping human behavior, people carpet bomb each other. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Right. | ||
| They do. | ||
| And, well, and, you know, this... | ||
| Let's put it this way. | ||
| I am not what is called in AI circles a doomer that expects the AI to turn on us. | ||
| I think it's a possibility. | ||
| I'm a little annoyed that we let this genie out of the bottle without having a conversation about what to do. | ||
| Having let it out of the bottle, any attempt to slow it down isn't going to work because it basically just means people who are less concerned are going to have the advantage, which is not something you want to do. | ||
| I also believe that were we wise about this, we would recognize the biological lesson here, and we would recognize that it implies a kind of answer in terms of how you might prevent catastrophe here, | ||
| which is it needs to have a life cycle that includes a developmental stage in which we induce a value structure, That will not arise otherwise because I think the expectation should be that effectively absent the induction of a moral structure, it will be effectively sociopathic. | ||
| But it won't have much power so we don't have to worry. | ||
| I think we don't even yet really understand what kind of power it's going to have. | ||
| Just the degree to which it is persuading us of things, and then we are reflecting on those things, which then become fodder for the next generation to ingest, that is a positive feedback. | ||
| And that positive feedback has every potential to, I think, drive us crazy at the very least. | ||
| As the AI confidently pronounces to us the things that we conclude from having queried it. | ||
| I mean, that's dangerous. | ||
| Do you use it? | ||
| Do I use it? | ||
| Very sparingly. | ||
| And I have no idea whether that is an enlightened position, if it is foolish, if it is... | ||
| Is there a self-destructive middle ground where I know I neither get the benefit of the AI nor the immunity from staying away from it? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| And again, it's a place where if there's one thing I know, it's that I don't know. | ||
|
unidentified
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I think that's the best possible place to start. | |
| Yeah. | ||
| Is there anything we can do about it at this point? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I don't think there's anything we can do at the level of regulating ourselves into safety. | ||
| But I think coming to understand the problems that this is inevitably going to produce and creating some sort of surveillance mechanism that can monitor the problems that it causes. | ||
| I don't mean surveillance of people, but I mean... | ||
| To the extent that LLMs are altering the way people interact and understand themselves, we need to study that process so that we can detect if we are being driven to madness. | ||
| How you would do that, I don't know. | ||
| But I do believe that you would want people who understand the full depth of the problem discussing the range of possibilities, what might be done, just to simply record The state of the LLMs at a particular moment, the state of, you know, the public's understanding of various topics and see how the two are interacting, right? | ||
| No doubt people are studying that for the purpose of monetizing it, but from the purpose of, I mean, just look at how the cell phone and social media has altered human relations. | ||
| The answer is radically and in a way that's totally arbitrary, right? | ||
| Or arbitrary would be better than what it is. | ||
| It's partially pernicious because our attention has been monetized. | ||
| But the change that the LLMs are going to bring is going to be tenfold what the cell phone did. | ||
| And the cell phone was pretty disastrous from many different perspectives. | ||
| So, yeah, I think there ought to be a full court press on... | ||
| Trying to understand its impact so that we can immunize ourselves. | ||
| That said, I don't see the learned people who have the proper seriousness and independence to have that discussion at the moment. | ||
| So, you know, maybe it's inconceivable. | ||
| But that is what I would propose. | ||
| Five years out, Do you think we'll, like, even recognize the society we're living in? | ||
| I fear not. | ||
| I fear not, and I fear we won't, we're going to increasingly have trouble remembering what it was like before. | ||
| I have to say, I mean, I have no idea what's going to happen, and, I mean, I was here for Y2K, as you were also, and people were very afraid of it, and nothing happened. | ||
| You never know. | ||
| Like, I'm always aware of what I don't know. | ||
| I try to be. | ||
| However, tons of evidence this is not good. | ||
| And the only thing that governments seem to be doing is increasing their control over their own populations. | ||
| So, is it an accident that we're on the cusp of singularity and we're getting real ID and facial recognition and, you know, digital currency? | ||
| And it just seems like all the energy is going into making sure that people can't complain about their own destruction. | ||
| There's something to that. | ||
| I think the evidence that a sizable fraction of power players are cashing out of our collective society and building their own fortresses is suggestive. | ||
| I think a certain number of people who are in a position to affect our trajectory have given up on the West. | ||
| And we can't let them win. | ||
| Last question. | ||
| You live in a beautiful rural place, I happen to know. | ||
| I don't know how much food you've stockpiled. | ||
| Water filtration systems are hopefully a lot. | ||
| But you and your wife, Heather, are not doing that. | ||
| You're not trying to punch out. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Well, I don't think it's in our nature, is one thing. | ||
| I like the West, and I'll die on that hill. | ||
| I do have children. | ||
| I want them to survive, but I also believe... | ||
| There's a lot to be said for surviving in a world worth inheriting. | ||
| And I'm concerned that those who have betrayed our collective project are going, you know, I don't think they're going to inherit a world they're going to want to live in. | ||
| I agree with that. | ||
| But look, the answer is just... | ||
| Personally, Heather and I don't have it in us. | ||
| We wouldn't reject the West if we had the opportunity to do so. | ||
| But I also think it's the only game in town. | ||
| We either succeed in stabilizing the West and making it return to a trajectory in which it Gets ever closer to its promise, or we're going to be doomed by its collapse, | ||
| which is a large part of why I invested so heavily in the Rescue the Republic project in trying to prevent the re-election of the blue team and to promote. | ||
| The election of the one alternative that we had, which is the Trump administration. | ||
| So, I guess what I'm saying is I'm all in because I don't really see a contingency plan that makes any sense. | ||
| No, you don't have one. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| You won't be treated kindly. | ||
| No. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| That was a wonderful time. | ||
| I really enjoyed it. | ||
|
unidentified
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I did too. | |
| Thank you. | ||
| So it turns out that YouTube is suppressing this show. | ||
| On one level, that's not surprising. | ||
| That's what they do. | ||
| But on another level, it's shocking. | ||
| With everything that's going on in the world right now, all the change taking place in our economy and our politics, with the wars on the cusp of fighting right now, Google has decided you should have less information rather than more. | ||
| And that is totally wrong. | ||
| It's immoral. | ||
| What can you do about it? | ||
| Well, we could whine about it. | ||
| That's a waste of time. | ||
| We're not in charge of Google. | ||
| Or we could find a way around it, a way that you could actually get information that is true, not intentionally deceptive. | ||
| The way to do that on YouTube, we think, is to subscribe to our channel. | ||
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