Chamath Palihapitiya traces his 2020 wealth to stimulus and zero rates, not skill, revealing how childhood refugee trauma fueled a "dark passenger" of materialism—until 2022’s crash forced self-reflection. Now, he warns America’s decline stems from DEI distractions and regulatory overreach, like ceding CRISPR to China or blocking rare earth mining, while his AI breast cancer tool (FDA pending by June) could slash lumpectomy errors to zero. A Trump ally after COVID skepticism, he contrasts Musk’s moral clarity with Zuckerberg’s pragmatism, urging deregulation and spiritual purpose over Silicon Valley’s hollow success—all while YouTube censors their show. [Automatically generated summary]
It's not clear to me how connected they are, but the first part of what you said I do agree with, which is that we have silently allowed this insidious war machine to take over large parts of the government.
And what's so interesting about this is that it actually, I would have said, was more riddled inside the Republican Party.
But it turns out over these last few years, especially since this MAGA takeover, This hostile takeover that Donald Trump affected, which I think is enormously important in historical context.
But it's more within the Democratic Party now.
There are these neocon warmongers that want to connect the dots between people suffering and their own economic opportunity.
Because I had to take a step back and actually figure out how much of this was actually me and my preparation and my process or my dark passenger.
And here's what I mean by this because I thought about this a lot.
I think we all have a dark passenger.
So when you are born, you're kind of like this...
Body that has the capability to do anything.
I mean, you know, we talk about this, but we don't say it enough, but the genetic diversity of all humanity is minuscules.
So I think I interpret that as the capability of all humanity is pretty incredible.
But you have this huge distribution of outcomes.
And part of that are the things that happen to you as you're growing up, right?
Your lived experience, right?
It's the nature part, not the nurture necessarily.
And nature gives some people a very dark passenger.
Some of them will then commit crimes.
Some of them will become murderers.
Some of them will become drug addicts.
Some of them will have this litany of things happen to them.
In my case, my lived experience gave me this thing where I have always battled this insecurity that I've just felt I'm basically worthless.
You're a kid.
You come here.
You don't really fit in.
You know, you try to kind of make a social life out of everything else that you're supposed to do doesn't really work, right?
And so that creates a chip on my shoulder.
And it was this sort of thing where I always felt I was on the outside looking in.
And then when I, you know, worked at Facebook and then left, and all of a sudden in my early 30s I had, you know, more success and more money, to be honest, than I ever thought I would have.
I spent a lot of time, a decade basically, feeding that insecurity, buying things, accumulating things.
And to be honest with you, if I'm being really honest with myself, look, I built a really successful investment business by all numerical accounts, but I would say for me it was a lost decade.
I didn't do anything.
And I got to a point in 2022 where all of that stuff, so much of it, had to be stripped away and I had to look at what was left.
So in Silicon Valley, there's like a group of us, like some well-known folks that we all get together.
And my wife was the one that did this.
When she first looked at the game, you'd see all these people and it was really interesting.
But, you know...
A lot of my friends have a touch of the tism.
And so what happens is, you know, you just end up like looking down at your cards for eight hours straight.
Nothing was happening.
And she said, guys, this is ridiculous.
You can play for a few hours, but at 7 p.m., we're going to break for dinner.
We're going to sit around a table and we're all going to talk.
And you must look at each other in the eyes.
And it was so funny.
But it's become a ritual.
And for all of us, we all feel seen.
And then slowly what happens is people start to talk about things that they would have never talked about.
What you see is this repetitive pattern.
People with this dark passenger, lots of insecurity.
They achieve a lot.
But all of that, a lot, is externally validated, but not internally felt.
And so there's just this sense that there's an emptiness.
And people start to panic.
I thought that XYZ would solve the problem.
I thought the watches would solve the problem.
The boat, the plane, the clothes, the chains.
None of it solves it.
And everybody, like clockwork, all of my friends, go through it.
And so it's funny, I'm sort of at the tail end of this, but that poker game has been almost like this therapy session where we all get to talk, and then as a result, people feel calmer.
They feel a little bit more seen about what's going on.
My point in telling you this is not sympathy.
It's just a state that, like, everybody is going through this struggle.
Yes.
Back to me, I was able to sort of put a finger on what my thing is.
What is that big sack that I've been trying to carry up a hill that is totally worthless and not worth my time?
It's this idea that I am worthless and I'm not worth anybody's time.
And that just comes from the way that I was raised and the things that happened to me.
I don't want any sympathy for that except to say, that's my thing.
But now that I know it...
I can try to do things that are more productive in ways where I feel real value.
And I think that's a very useful process because it reintroduces—I think it can fix for so many people the thing that is so broken right now.
You know, we are completely despiritualized.
Nobody believes in a higher order, faith, God.
And so I think what happens is everybody has this Carl Jung moment.
All of this difficulty sits on top of them.
And at some point, they may never say it out loud, they think, I am living in a tale told by an idiot.
Right?
That's that famous quote about why spirituality is important.
And when you feel that way and you don't have an answer, you start to feel angry.
And you start to push back.
And you start to think, tear it all down.
None of this is working.
It's all BS. I want to try to solve it for myself, and then as I live and as I just kind of do the things that I'm doing, start new businesses, make new investments, I want to try to point this out.
Because I think by pointing it out, you have a chance for other people to start questioning things.
I wonder, I do know, and I've certainly seen that a lot, having spent a lot of time around rich people, but I've rarely seen someone address it as honestly as you are now.
do you know other people who've been willing to look themselves as clearly I think there are people that have that may not talk about it but I think that they've lived it I know Elon's lived it, where he's always underwritten things based on...
The great thing about being in Silicon Valley is that there are people, That I have the honor and the luck of knowing, like him, but I didn't really try to learn from him until 2022, if that makes sense.
Meaning, there were all these decisions that he made that I would reductively reduce to, that's a smart business decision.
He was always leading from, what are my core moral beliefs and let me act on those.
The money never mattered.
He never did anything to live that experience.
He loves his friends.
He loves his family.
It took me a decade of knowing him until I started to listen to that and to really hone in on that.
So he's an example.
Then there are folks that are a little bit older that have gone through it.
My father-in-law has gone through it, ups and downs and ups and downs, and he's built an incredible business.
And he's had to face tremendous hardship where he's had to underwrite, well, what is really important?
Am I an honorable person?
You know, is my word my bond?
When you shake my hand and we do a deal, it is what it is.
You know, if I can, you know, make X, but it's way too much, and if I can make half as X, but it's more, makes my, he makes drugs, you know, life signs of drugs, make them more accessible, should I do?
He makes those decisions.
And so you live, you see his morality play out in his actions.
My wife.
So I think now I have three or four people in my life, but I had to listen.
And before, I chose not to listen because my ego said, hey man, you're the best.
I think the thing that, like I said, the problem with things like social media, what they do is...
They glorify these things.
We all fall for it.
I fell for it.
So when you have money, you go and you buy these things because you think this is what happiness looks like or success looks like, and it's none of that stuff.
Now, nobody listening to this will believe it because everybody wants to live that over and over because it's not like a very destructive life lesson.
You know what I mean?
Like to have a lower piano sweater and not need it.
But the bigger message is more important, which is, if you have a sense of what's important, you can kind of see the things that are really happening in a much more, they're more in focus.
So like, you know, I would say like now that I'm 48, I'm much more aware of like, what does it mean to be an American?
What is my job as an American businessman, as an engineer?
It's not all of this other superficial garbage because it adds nothing.
It's to actually allow the system that rewarded and benefited me to be just a little bit better in terms of the contributions I give to it before I'm no longer part of the system in 50 or 60 years.
That's very motivating for me now.
And this idea that my kids can go and join Team America and do cool stuff and find happiness, find a great husband, find a great wife, have a bunch of kids and live a good life and know what their dad went through and have a better sense of that.
That seems like an additive thing I can add to the system to be a good example for my friends when they start to go through their own struggles.
That they can kind of course correct a little bit faster than I did.
Literally a death, and then you are complicit in the commission of that death.
It's the husband and the wife.
I mean, there are only two people responsible.
That's right.
And so I see a bunch of my friends who are, you can see some veering and teetering, and now I can sort of intervene a little bit and just kind of cajole and nudge and, you know, help them.
And I'm not saying that these are all really grand, highfalutin things, but they actually address the inner part of what I needed for a very long time.
Speaking of children, I was having a conversation with one of my children this morning.
You know, I know a lot of rich people, obviously, and we're talking about somebody who we know, you know, good guy, billionaire, who is totally focused on making more money, to the exclusion of...
It's a jug that they're trying to fill and they think that the closer they get to filling it, the problem is like your mind just switches the jug to an even bigger jug.
And then it gets closer to being full and then it switches again and it switches again.
I think the much better way to think about this problem is What am I doing with my time that actually helps the place that gave me an opportunity be better?
And the people that live beside me be better.
That is a really morally valuable statement.
And then you can kind of like look at all the things and all the problems that make everybody mad in the United States as an opportunity to actually do them better.
And that is useful.
And when you have money, the one thing that you can do is you can accelerate that change much faster than folks that have to take a much more arduous path.
And I think we've lost that.
There's not enough people that basically say, okay, you know what?
The United States has given me so much.
Now, how do I give back?
And you don't necessarily have to give back by going into non-profit or going into government.
You can just acknowledge the problems that are there and go fix them.
And you can fix them by starting for-profit companies, which are always the best way.
You can have five decent children, too, which is probably the best thing you could do for any country.
So thank you for that.
But I do notice and have always noticed that some of the people who've benefited most from the United States dislike it the most intensely, and I don't really understand what that is.
You can tell me maybe where you agree or disagree.
But it is important for all 330 million Americans to take a step back and acknowledge this one truth.
And I think that it is completely a canonical statement that is inviolate for being an American.
We are the single most important country in existence in the world.
We are the most important country today.
We must be the most important country tomorrow.
Period.
If you say that enough times and you believe it, then there are two things that underpin that, and I think only two.
We are the single most vibrant economy in the world, and we are the single strongest military in the world.
And if you can agree to those two things, which I think should be non-controversial if you say, meaning, like if I said to you, hey, Tucker, we make the best oranges and burritos in America.
That does not yield the most important country in the world.
If I said we make the best shoes and the best flat panel TVs, that does not equate to the most powerful country in the world.
But if I said to you, we have the strongest and most vibrant economy and the strongest and most powerful military, that is the strongest and most important country in the world.
And then there is only one thing that gives you both of those two things.
Which is technological supremacy.
So go back to these examples.
If I said to you, we write the best books, those books could be incredibly powerful, but it does not give you technical supremacy.
If I said to you that we have the most abundant energy, oil fields, nat gas, it's important, but it does not give us technological supremacy.
Those that get there...
We'll be in a position to create the most vibrant economy.
They'll take that money and then create the most powerful military.
They'll put those two things together.
They'll be the most powerful country.
So I think today, sitting here, January of 2025, we are in an existential risk of losing our place in the world.
And the reason is that we had people, we have people, from the inside, Trying to sabotage our economy effectively and trying to sabotage our military capability.
And they do that not explicitly, but they do that because they are in positions of leadership and they fundamentally don't know what they're doing.
And this is what needs to get called out.
And I think what we need is this wholesale reform of the people that are at the levers and in the controls of these things.
The lack of economic judgment, the lack of military judgment is ruining.
America's ability to be the most important country in the world.
We are, you know, in Silicon Valley, I think it's fair to say that we have had a lost decade.
And when you look underneath why, what are the two most or three most or four most incredible technological achievements that the Silicon Valley has created in the last decade?
You're hard-pressed to find it.
So, in one example, you have Elon.
He's created reusable rocketry.
He's created an entire global mesh of communications infrastructure.
He's created electric cars.
That's an incredible thing.
And he's done that with one hand tied behind his back, meaning fighting the government, local, state, federal at every single turn over the last 10 or 15 years.
I think a lot of people fell into the same lull that I fell into.
We had people pushing back constantly.
We got distracted.
We wasted time.
You know, we took an entire cadre.
Like, look, engineering is actually very much like professional sports, Tucker.
Like, there are Michael Jordans in engineering.
Okay?
And there are many people that are not very close to Michael Jordan.
You know, couldn't even make a JV scrub team.
There is that crazy distribution of capability.
And let's just say in Silicon Valley there's 5 million engineers, if you add up all the companies and all the people.
Maybe that's a lot, but I don't know.
I can tell you that there's at least 25,000 or 50,000 of them that are like Michael Jordan-esque capable.
And instead, what we told these people is, hey, don't win six championships in eight years.
Don't be the most prolific player ever.
What we told them to do was like, hey, you can dribble down the court, but don't dribble too fast because you'll make these other people feel bad.
Hey, you know what?
You can do a couple of layups, but don't do too many layups because you should actually pass the ball so that these other people we hired, because the team photo looks better, give them a chance to score.
You did all of these dumb things.
Then team management would come down and say, you know what?
I actually think the goal should be to play wiffle ball.
And then you take Michael Jordan off the basketball court and you make him play wolf football.
That's what Silicon Valley did.
We took all this incredible talent.
We got distracted by the money.
Because what really did happen in the Valley?
What did happen is all the billionaires became decabillionaires and centi-billionaires.
The wealth went through the roof.
The innovation went through the floor.
So we got lulled.
Into this economic complacency.
My gosh, I'm so much smarter because I'm so much richer.
But I think that there was some sabotage, meaning, or maybe sabotage is not the right word, but there were traps that were laid out and we all fell on them.
All this kind of stuff that were distractions to core innovation.
I'll give you two examples that paint the picture.
I'll bookend it.
I'll give you a Silicon Valley bookend.
The beginning of the bookend is in the early 2000s.
There's an incredible professor, Jennifer Doudna, in Berkeley, and she pioneers CRISPR, which is the ability to edit genes.
Let's take that off the table whether you think it's morally right or wrong for a second, okay?
It could be a tool.
It could be a weapon.
I grant that.
But it is undeniably a tool that sits in the toolbox that we call technological supremacy.
Over the next decade, what Silicon Valley managed to do was embroil themselves in IP lawsuits about who actually owned it.
What China did was take the open source awareness of it and pioneer it.
Was that smart?
Whether you agree or you disagree, should that toolbox be in our toolbox where we can meet it out?
Or should it be in China's toolbox where they can decide?
Where if all of a sudden there is some disease in the future, and it requires this very precise form of gene editing, and only they can do it, and now a state-sponsored entity in China is the one that provisions a cure for 8 billion humans around the world, that will give them tremendous economic Power.
Is that smart?
For America to have done that?
I think not.
I'll give you a different example, which is just today as you and I sit here, President Biden issued an EO. And what the EO said is, executive order, AI is going to be critical, and so we want to give the ability for federal lands To be used for AI data centers.
Okay.
Now you're cooking.
This sounds smart.
Let's go read the fine print.
And by the second or third paragraph, what it says is, however, we need to think about the diversity and equity inclusions of said data centers and you have to basically give preference to clean power.
Well, is that the same clean power that was essentially made impossible because of permitting issues and environmental impact studies?
You know, you can't just build solar farms that you want to.
You can't build wind farms in America if you want to.
You can't build nuclear reactors because they won't let you.
These are not technological limitations.
These were regulatory limitations.
Those are just two examples that just show you.
You cannot do what's in America's best interest right now.
Because people have forgot they've lost the script.
They forgot the priorities.
Guys, the priorities are we need to remain the most singularly powerful economic and military entity in the world.
The way you do that is through technical supremacy, period.
I'll give you another two examples.
You can tell me if these are boring.
Not at all.
Saudi Arabia is doing an incredible job.
They're monetizing their oil.
Doing very strategic things with the capital.
What they've decided is they're going to allocate money that they take from selling oil to build a global data center infrastructure for AI. That's really smart.
And when you look at Saudi Arabia on a map, you think, oh my gosh, this is very smart.
Why?
Because they sit right in this artery between Asia, Europe, and Africa.
This is critically smart.
But what is the one thing that they need that they don't have?
It's AI chips.
Now, AI, just to break it down for your viewers, think of AI as two buckets.
Bucket number one is where you train the brain.
Think of AI as a brain.
Bucket number one, you train the brain.
Bucket number two, you use the brain to make decisions.
The chips that we make to train the brain We don't want folks to train their own brains necessarily unless we can govern them.
That's a Department of Commerce decision on export licensing.
The way that we use the brain is a different kind of chip, and we have some export controls there.
What will Saudi eventually be forced to do?
They're an ally of America.
They want to do the right thing, but they have a responsibility to their people to try to become the most incredible economic and military power in the world.
They're going to go and buy the chips from the people that will actually sell it to them.
If you look at Meta, Meta has poured tens of billions of dollars to training a brain.
An AI brain that's called Lama.
That's Meta's efforts in AI. And it's open source.
It's wonderful, actually.
My companies use it.
It works.
It's high quality.
OpenAI, which is the private closed-sourced competitor to Meta and Lama, also has an AI brain that they've trained.
You know, GPT, ChatGPT, you've used it, probably.
They've also spent tens of billions of dollars, in part coming from Microsoft.
Meanwhile, in December, a Chinese company open sourced a model where they spent tens of millions of dollars.
And in many cases, that digital brain is smarter than both meta and open AIs on many dimensions.
So, two orders of magnitude cheaper.
Well, what do you think that means for the other 182 countries around the world that wants to do something in AI? Are they going to take the $10 billion version, or are they going to take the $10 million version?
They're going to take the $10 million one.
And when you unpack, well, why did it cost $10 billion?
It cost $10 billion because of all the roadblocks that we put in front of companies to make the things that we need to maintain our technical supremacy.
So I'll give you some examples.
There is a huge, so for example, one of the things that China chooses to not do is they don't really respect copyright law.
Now, I'm not saying we should violate copyright law, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there is a technical overhang that it creates in training these brains to try to filter out content that the New York Times tags or Fox News tags and says, don't learn on this.
You're not allowed unless you have a deal with me.
That creates an enormous layer of expense.
How do we judge that issue?
Today, if you ask somebody, it's a pretty simple conversation.
It's not nuanced.
It's, do you believe in copyright or do you not believe in copyright?
I think it's a much more nuanced question.
For the sake of training these digital brains, if there was an economic relationship that we could create, Isn't it better that our digital brain is smarter than these other ones and that we make it as cheap as possible?
If you ask that question, a lot of people would say, gosh, that's a nuanced question.
It's neither an easy no or an easy yes, but on the margins, I would say yes, knowing that there are these impacts.
Give you a different example.
It takes all this energy to build the data centers.
Why does it cost so much?
It's not that the, let's just say you wanted to use solar panels.
Is it that the solar panels are expensive?
No.
Is it that the ability to do the interconnects are expensive?
No.
It's that building that facility had a multi-year environmental impact study, umpteen lawsuits, all kinds of indirection and misdirection from all of these independent actors.
Who believed that they were pursuing their own priorities and there was no release valve that said, I appreciate and respect the smelt that you're trying to protect or the land grouse, but this is bigger than that.
We need to make sure we maintain our technical superiority.
That data center is going to be used by the NSA to protect America.
So it needs to go up in nine months.
No ifs, ands, or buts.
Right now, we don't have the ability to say that.
Or if we do, it's not clear who should say it.
And so all of this time costs money.
All of this complexity costs money.
And the output are practical costs of building these things that are just two orders of magnitude bigger than our competitors.
We're not going to use the word revival, but it does seem true that millions of Americans simultaneously are coming to the conclusion that buying things online and going on vacation may not be the sum total purpose of life.
Maybe there's something more.
And if you're one of those people who's beginning to ask questions, what else is there?
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I wonder, though, if just the basic economics of AI, just force change, for example.
The power draw for AI, I was hearing about it, that was an AI center in another country three days ago, and they were saying they're not exactly sure, you know, what it's going to take to run one, but it could be 10x a normal data center, which is, that was amazing to me.
So how do you power that exactly?
So you have these competing imperatives.
You've got the climate agenda versus AI, which is clearly the future of the economy of California, for example.
And instead, we make it this sort of moral blanket that you have to wrap yourself in.
Everybody then takes a view, and all it does is retard progress.
So I guess what I'm saying is, we spend way too much time getting distracted.
on fringe ideas and we need to recalibrate.
We need to be and we need to remain the most singular muscular power in the world which comes from economic and military supremacy which comes from only one thing technical supremacy.
So you have to find a way of enabling those 50,000 Michael Jordans that exist in America to cook.
And just to double click into a robot, a robot moves through these things called actuators, okay?
And one of the things that actuators needs, one of the ways that they generate mechanical motion, 3D planar mechanical motion, is through the use of magnets.
Permanent magnets.
And permanent magnets are different than the ones you and I play with or what our kids play with.
They are made from these things called rare earth metals.
And rare earths are a misnomer.
They are not rare.
But they are abundantly available in the earth.
There is an incredible supply of rare earths in California.
You could not for the life of you get a permit in California.
No matter how clean, how green, to mine those materials to make sure that we could make magnets so that we could make the robots so that we maintained our technical supremacy.
That's how that decision, I think, should get made.
We want technical supremacy in the next five to ten years.
There's going to be a huge wave in robotics.
America needs to be at the forefront.
America needs to make them.
We need to understand how to program them.
Our robots need to be smarter.
So there's an AI track, right?
There's a mechanical engineering track.
Okay, well, there's a mining track.
Let's get the materials.
Let's make sure that we are beholden to nobody so that we can make them.
By the way, these are all great paying jobs if you are able to actually get them permitted.
And when push comes to shove, when it's like, yeah, get the rare earths out of the ground and make the permanent magnets, can't do it.
Why?
You're going to spend 13 years in permitting hell in California to try to get that done?
And I know this.
The reason I know this is that I started a business to make sure that China does not have access to the only supply of rare earths.
And I initially tried to do it in California.
Impossible.
I invested in one business that actually had an old mind that we were able to get back online through a bankruptcy process and blah, blah, blah.
But it's not nearly enough.
I went to India, and I was able to get a deal done with the Indian government.
And what they were able to see was the strategic rationale of making sure we had access to not only the rare earths, but also to make sure that there were subsidies so that they would compete on the global stage cheaper than China.
And now I can bring them back into the United States to make these magnets.
Would I like to do that?
In America, yes.
Can I? Impossible.
I'd be sitting around twiddling my thumbs for a decade.
The guys in India did that deal with me in less than 18 months.
They understand.
There's an escalation point where they'll sit down and say, Chamath, what do you need?
What makes sense?
And I say, well, sir, here's what we're trying to do.
Here's why it's important.
Here's why having a global supply chain that's independent of China is just important.
If you're not fighting over that critical resource, it's going to be very unlikely you're going to go to war, which if you look past the last four or five wars.
The trillions of dollars and the hundreds of thousands of American lives, what were they all about?
Oil.
And now, you know, we have the ability to power those data centers.
So, should data centers be built in a fair, predictable way on federal land?
Yeah, because it feeds the technical supremacy we all need.
Now, by the way, there is a conversation to be had is, okay, great, when you have all this economic abundance, how do you share it more?
I get that.
But at least you're in a position to have the conversation.
So, back to this though, but like, you know, if you're able to build these things, I think what Biden should have done is just say, hey, listen, folks, do your best, get the energy, because it exists, use Nat gas, use oil, and we will figure it out after we've won.
It's incredible that you mentioned air conditioning.
So back to one of these ways where I was like, after 2022, how can I just get back to basics and do the things that I do well?
One of the projects that I started with this incredible mechanical engineer was we set out to rebuild the air conditioner.
Yeah, good.
And when you look at air conditioners, the heat transfer mechanisms can be made much, much more efficient, and you don't have to use this horrible coolance.
And so we have a working version now.
It's like our second prototype.
We're probably two years away from getting something working, but when that works, by the way, we've started a process to figure out how do we sell it.
But this is, again, Tucker, it's like, if I tried to sell it to a home, The number of people that want to touch that thing, it will take me an extra $150 million and an extra, extra $150 million.
It'll take $150 million to build it.
It'll take an extra $150 million and an extra seven years.
So there was probably a very smart, capable lawyer representing some smart organization who knew that this was something that they could write in to slow people down.
But what people need to understand is that, again, it just slows down our ability to remain number one.
I don't think that they want to wreck the country as much as I think that they have lost the global context.
I don't think they understand that we are in an existential risk of no longer being number one.
And I think that they also don't understand the implications if we are not number one.
You need to just look at the UK. If you want to have a very simple and visible picture of a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant nation completely losing itself.
Totally losing the economic war, losing the military war, losing the technology war, and fighting a fringe issue war, you need to just look there.
And people should ask themselves, is that what we aspire to?
So the thing that we need to do, I think, as a Western set of nations, is we need to understand and agree on the fact that governance over this last decade has totally and miserably failed by focusing on these fringe issues and by losing sight of these global priorities.
I'll give you a different example.
At the end of the global financial crisis, Canada emerged as the healthiest G7 country out of all of us.
They were doing phenomenally well, low debt to GDP, phenomenal growth.
And then over those intervening 17 years, they focused on all kinds of fringe issues.
Rampant open immigration, poor allocation of risk capital inside of Canada.
Allowed this incredible flight of human capital to the United States.
Actually, I'm going to be back in February for a little bit.
I've always felt like a fish out of water in Canada.
I've loved it for many reasons.
I think that it had had.
Some principles back then that I think are very legitimate and I think should exist in the United States.
The most important being a capped cost of higher education.
I spent $12,000 a year to get an electrical engineering degree from a place called the University of Waterloo, which globally is as good, frankly, better than MIT. If I had to be in the United States, and if I had gotten into MIT, which I probably would not have, but had I been able to, I'd be $100,000 or $200,000 in debt.
And so had I not had this lottery ticket for me pay off with an IPO and working at Facebook, I don't know where I would be today.
That's crazy.
So there are things that Canada, I think, and we should acknowledge that, does really right.
That is probably the most important thing that it does right.
And I think the idea of a state-sponsored healthcare system, it's implemented horribly poorly, but there are elements of that where I think Especially around sort of capped costs, which I think are important, meaning, you know, in the United States,
a healthcare CEO was telling me, when you look inside of an EMR system, the electronic medical care system, let's say, Tucker, you're a doctor and you did a knee surgery, you would have a hundred different prices attached to you, depending on the plan, depending on the insurer.
That's dumb.
You are one person.
Those are one set of hands.
That's one surgery.
It's one quality.
The idea that one person is lucky enough to pay $1,000 deductible and the other person has to pay $50,000 is an egregious market failure.
It's just egregious.
So, Tucker Carlson, the best knee surgeon in America, if he charges $2,000, then he charges $2,000 for everybody.
There's a hybrid that the United States could implement that is not NHS or the Canadian system, but it's not just a pure free market free-for-all.
It's a little bit in between, and let me describe what the in-between parts are.
Medicare is an incredibly important insurance program in the United States.
I think it stands to reason that Medicare should have its own PBM. If Medicare was able to negotiate an extremely aggressive price for drugs, it sets the boundary for what is allowable for everybody else.
And for folks that are 65 and older, then now they have a very viable alternative to use that.
It also creates transparency around the variation in pricing, number one.
Number two, there needs to be a way where a private insurer Can build up some credit for doing things today that may only pay off for that employee in the future when he's no longer an employee?
So for example, you worked at Fox.
Should the Fox insurance program have put you on a statin?
I'm making this up.
Have put you on a statin in your early 40s to help you manage your...
I'm not saying you have rising cholesterol, but if you had that, because in 10 or 15 years from now, It would help a potential cardiac arrest or heart attack.
A lot of the companies that are faced with this decision today say, we're not going to do that because you may not be an employee in 15 years, so why am I paying now for something where I get the benefit then?
But that's a simple healthcare economics market solution.
We should have those.
We should give private insurers incentives to...
In some cases, maybe the right thing to do is to put people on Ozempic and Munjaro.
Do the work now.
I understand that that employee may be retired by the time that they may need that.
But it was the right thing to do for that person for having worked for you for 15 or 20 years.
Another thing.
With AI today, you can read all of these insurance plans, and you should have a standard way of knowing that a condition is going to get approved or not before it starts.
And that needs to be auditable.
It cannot be where you need like a PhD and five different people to read these insurance plans, and then all of a sudden, a random person can make an economic decision to say no.
That's also where simple technology can get built to build very strict...
Strict guardrails.
What is approved?
What is not approved?
Have it be known.
Have it be auditable.
Be in a log so that people can just simply escalate.
Hey, that person got his approved and mine was dinged.
Why?
So there's all these little things to make the system better.
It needs to be more open.
You need to have, for example, a different case of open.
It is highly unlikely that you've ever tried to get all of your healthcare data.
Impossible.
Now you would say, Chamath, why would I need that?
Maybe there's an AI agent that can actually be your doctor in your pocket that just works for Tucker.
You know, it's the person that is constantly reading my every interaction with the healthcare system to tell me what they think.
It's my own second opinion.
That's not a bad idea.
That's a very low-cost thing to do.
Except you can't get the data.
Why can't you get the data?
Because there's federal regulations and most people don't listen to them.
Federal regulations, TEFCA, says you have to be able to download your data.
These companies make it very hard because they know the more open it becomes, it induces competition.
In America, we do things a little differently and we always have.
But the British said, hey, we're going to tax your favorite morning beverage.
The revolutionary Sons of Liberty said no, and they poured the entire shipment of tea into Boston Harbor and created a new country, a country based on personal choice and freedom.
Well, 251 years later, it is time to throw something else overboard, your overpriced big wireless contract.
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PureTalk provides the same coverage as the other guys.
It's just a lot more affordable and a lot more straightforward.
So you said AI can be used to make sense of, you know, like the Talmud of...
Of health insurance regulations.
Looking down the next five years, name three or four innovations that you're pretty certain we're going to see life enhancers from AI. So I start companies.
But when I don't see something that I think I can start right away and there's somebody that's a little bit in the lead, I'll just invest and I'll just take a large piece so that I can help guide them.
One of those businesses, where I'm the largest shareholder, has been working on breast cancer surgery.
And today, across America, for every 10 women that go and get diagnosed with breast cancer, three of the surgeries leave cancer behind.
And the way that it works is you go in for what's called...
So there's two different kinds of breast cancer surgery.
There's a lumpectomy, which is take out the lump.
Or a mastectomy, which is take out the entire breast.
And in the lumpectomy, you have to have, you visualize with your own eyes whether you think most of the cancer is gone.
You close up the woman and you take that sample.
You give it to a pathologist.
And typically between 7 and 11 days, which is how long it takes because they're clogged up and there's backlog, they'll look under a microscope and visually inspect and say, actually, sorry.
30% of the time, they say, you left some cancer behind.
So now that woman has to, those three women have to go back.
They get another surgery.
But again, 30% error rate.
They do it again.
And then one of those women gets dinged.
So now one woman has had three breast cancer surgeries.
That is happening today.
Now, if you go to a really, really good teaching hospital, that error rate will be 5% because the docs are incredible.
If you go to an overly zealous doctor, that error rate will also be low, but you'll come in for a lumpectomy, you'll end up with a mastectomy kind of a thing.
They'll just take out so much of that, and that creates a disfiguration.
So this company basically says, hold on a second, I'll just use AI. I'll look right down to the granular microscopic level.
I'll take an extremely high-res picture.
My brain will be trained on only this one task.
Is there cancer or is there no cancer?
So we built it.
And it's in a bunch of the leading hospitals in America.
But we had to file with the FDA to be allowed to tell the doctor.
We can now absolutely be sure that the cancer was removed or not removed.
Now we have to package all of that up.
We've filed it with the FDA. We've been told we'll get approval by June, and then we'll be able to sell.
Meaning sell the software upgrade.
So that essentially, in the operating room, Instead of having to wait for the pathologist 7 to 11 days later, the doctor will do the lumpectomy, put it in the machine, and instantly you'll say, Tucker, you need to take out a little bit more.
That is using AI, and that can get breast cancer surgeries to be so prolifically good that the error rate goes to zero.
The impact on the quality of life of those women, and then by extension, their families, their kids that have to deal with that stress as well, can go away.
So that's a profound impact of AI that you're going to see in the next year.
We could quibble that this should have been faster, could have cost a lot less money, meaning it cost me the same amount of money to get this trial done as it cost that Chinese company to build a digital brain that's as good as OpenAI or Facebook.
That's crazy.
But whatever.
Okay, put a pin in it.
We did it.
We'll file, and we'll move forward.
We play the rules that are on the field, even if the rules make no sense, and it's hard to tell anybody, change the rules, but it is what it is.
That's an example.
Elon published some data yesterday, which is incredibly profound, which is he has an AI brain inside of the Tesla, and the ability to drive safely on the highway, Became 7.5x better than his previous version.
And his previous version was already 10 times better than a normal car.
Which means when you get on the highway, you engage FSD, it's called.
His version of autopilot for the car.
And it was already 10 times better.
Now it's 7 times better than that 10 times.
To not get into an accident.
So the idea...
About using AI now to just eliminate all the unnecessary deaths that happen because of traffic mishaps.
There's the potential where that goes to zero.
That's today as well.
Again, his issue isn't technological.
His issue is going to be regulatory.
At what speed will people be able to be comfortable letting him take people from point A to point B? In yet a different example, there are all of these small airplane companies.
They're called eVTOL.
So it's not a plane, not a helicopter, but it's kind of this hybrid thing in between.
And they have this autopilot where it's like taking off in a no-pilot configuration, piloting it in the air, which is much simpler, by the way, than driving on the ground, and then landing.
And you have the ability to now just create a level of transportation which increases GDP. And that is an AI brain that's calculating all the system variables around itself, being able to fly safely, getting from point A to point B. You don't have to drive seven hours.
I mean, I think it's made me much cooler for my older kids, my teenagers.
You know, they use these words, which I just can't stand, but they're like, you know, if somebody comes up and says hi and we take a picture, they're like, Dad, that was some good riz.
You know, they'll be like, yeah, that was, okay, good aura, Dad, good aura.
And so we make fun of it, you know, I will turn to them, and I'll be like, in the car, I'll be like, guys, shut up!
You know, they'll be making a lot of noise.
They're like, why?
And then I'll turn up, because I'm a very important podcaster.
There was a version of that moment, obviously much less important, but where somebody… Summer of 16. Yeah, where somebody like passes a note to Obama and he goes home.
This was like we were in San Francisco.
It was like at 8 or 9 p.m.
And he's like, oh, wow, the UK just voted to leave.
So I remember where I was that day.
But those kinds of moments made me feel that maybe I was doing the right thing, right?
And then all of my businesses just kept running up against these brick walls.
Over and over and over again.
Every time I tried to do something good that I thought was valuable, it would bump up against all of this stupid regulation and slowed back.
And every time I looked at who they were, they were all supposedly on the same team that I was in.
So I said, forget this.
I have to start from first principles.
So in 2023, Sax and I decided we were going to start throwing fundraisers.
For a whole variety of candidates.
So the first one was at his house.
We threw a fundraiser for RFK. We got to meet Bobby.
It was exhilarating.
And for the first time, you have this person speaking truth to power.
Then at my house, we threw a fundraiser for Vivek.
David and I did that together.
And then David called me and said, let's do a fundraiser for Trump.
People, I got the amount of like hate text messages.
I should have kept some of them.
They're probably still on my phone, actually.
But people were very mad.
And part of, I think, why they were mad is they were afraid, meaning there was a lie that Biden was sharp as a tack, and myself and David had not really dismantled the lie beyond just saying it looks like a lie.
And I think that they were worried that it would create, I think what Peter Thiel calls this, which I really agree with, is a preference cascade.
You know, like Peter is a genius, but he is on an island many years ahead of the rest of us.
Then there are other people, you know, like me and David to some degree, who are also sort of like we can kind of see the patterns not nearly as fast as a Peter.
But then we do a decent job of translating it for other folks.
So I think people are afraid if these guys translate their interactions with Donald Trump into the truth, it's going to tip a lot of people.
That's when I knew I'd made a mistake before about believing what the press was saying.
That's where I went back and I looked at the Charlottesville press conference.
I looked at all of them again after my phone call.
When the president called me, I was like, hold on a second.
This man was incredibly charming, polite, kind.
What I honestly thought, Tucker, I called my wife, I was like, he was raised by really good parents.
That's what I said to them.
That's what I said to my wife.
Because you can tell in your kids.
You know like when you see kids around and there are some, they are polite, they're kind, they make eye contact.
There's these, I don't want to call them simple, but there are these building blocks of being a human being that you need to be taught by your parents.
He was taught.
And I have tremendous respect for that.
So then when I saw him at David's house, I mean, it's pretty incredible.
And then, you know, different from his first time around, the caliber of the people around him, it's like the 92 Barcelona, you know, dream team.
As far as I can tell, I mean, like, my gosh, like, you get Elon, you get Vivek, you get RFK, you get Tulsi, you get all of these people, you know, Howard Lutnick.
I want to tell you about an amazing documentary series from our friend Sean Stone called All the President's Men the Conspiracy Against Trump.
It is a series of interviews with people at the very heart of the first Trump campaign.
Many of whom are close to the heart of the second Trump term.
This is their stories about what permanent Washington tried to do to them, in many cases send them to prison, for the crime of supporting Donald Trump.
Their words have never been more relevant than they are now.
Steve Bannon, Kash Patel, I'm in there even.
All the president's men, the conspiracy against Trump, and you will find it only on tcntuckercarlson.com.
Highly recommend it.
So what is the view of I remember vividly the day that you all had that fundraiser for Trump and thinking, I never thought I would live to see this.
This is like a major change.
Major, major change.
Was there a major change in attitudes in Silicon Valley toward Trump after that?
At first I was hurt by it because I didn't understand it.
And I thought, again, it goes back to, oh, I'm worthless.
Like, is there something about me?
Is that why you're rejecting me?
And then I realized it has nothing to do with me.
This person is just, today is a day, tomorrow is a day.
And they're not...
Fighting these battles doesn't make them better nor worse.
It's just a different.
For me, I'm caught up in my own head about having to do something a little bit more ideological and morally rooted because I need that so that I feel like there's purpose.
And he is able to convince people of things that are just not true.
And so, he is fighting for his political life.
He definitely wants to be on the national stage.
And so the real question is, is he able to convince enough people that this was the environment and that these winds came out of nowhere?
Or will it be laid bare at his feet that it was just a lack of skill, intellectual rigor, and distraction, and negligence, and incompetence that caused this fire?
You know, I found that there were three bills that started in the legislature that were either approved by the legislature and were then vetoed by Newsom or were then pulled down by the legislature itself.
Again, this is like Democrats on Democrat violence.
To just give a waiver to all of these local municipalities to go and clear the brush.
Just that.
Clear the brush.
Now, would that have stopped the fire?
No, I get that it wouldn't have stopped the fire, but the intensity of a fire is directly proportional to the energy load that you give it.
So, take away some of the fuel and the fire will be less.
And if we can't even admit that plain truth, this is what I mean by, if we're going to continue to just lie to ourselves because we care so much about this failed ideology, then California is going to just continue to just degrade.
But there's a point, I mean, you see the same thing in New York City where if the The engines of the economy leave, because it is a country with 50 states.
There's a point where the math doesn't work, and things just decline so quickly that it's hard to recover.
Well, at this point, with the decline of ag and the entertainment business and aerospace, I don't really know what drives the economy of California other than Well, right now, if you look at California's employment, the employment picture is quite scary because it is government jobs that are convoluting how healthy the actual state is.
One of my friends left because one of their children went through.
You know, a bit of an identity crisis, if you want to call it that.
Yes.
And the police showed up and wanted to, you know, take the kid away, you know, so that the kid could go through, like, a transition that the kid ultimately decided they didn't want to go through.
I'm not sure if it's to encourage it, but my understanding of the way this works is if you as a child have these issues...
And you escalate that.
There's a requirement for the school to basically call Child Protective Services, who may or may not call the police, who may or may not come to your house and try to take the kid away.
And so the idea that just some random person in an office somewhere can read some piece of paper and all of a sudden take your kids away, that's very scary.
There are some really competent people that are in that state that will try now to come out of the woodwork to do the right thing, to deregulate California.
California has 60,000 regulations on the books.
It was 10,000 less than a decade ago.
Go back to 10,000.
Go to 5,000.
What are we afraid of?
Are we afraid of the breast cancer thing that could get to market faster?
Are you afraid that Elon's autopilot can now save people's lives more?
Are you afraid that we can catch rockets and then send them back to the stars and the heavens and Mars?
which went pretty viral which kind of laid bare what was going on in social media and he and I have not spoken since Wow Well knowing him as you do and for as long as you have what do you make of his Joe Rogan appearance?
Yeah, rolling about and, like, you know, he's like Fidel Castro's love child.
Anyways, but in that book is a picture of Zuck and it says, you know, Zuck was the nicest guy to my face but then would, you know, work against me to turn over the election and, you know.
I've made it very clear that if he tries to do anything like that again, he'll go to prison for the rest of his life.
That's what Trump says in the caption.
And then he was asked about that last week, the exact same day that Mehta changed their policies.
And he said, do you think it was in response to what you said?
And the president said, probably.
So I think it's a very smart but necessary set of calculations, but I think they are calculations.
So, when the trend was under the Democrats to build a censorship machine, you know, you do that, and then when the trend is to do the opposite, you'll do the opposite.
But he's said to me a number of times, over a number of years, you know, off camera, but has said, you know, basically I'm a kind of 70s liberal, and I really believe in free speech.
I mean, that's got to feel like a lot of pressure when you're a young guy on the come-up and a bunch of these well-heeled politicos show up at your office and say, you know, bend the knee.
It is the most important temperature check that we are going to make the changes that Donald Trump wants.
In some ways, is the most powerful job, but I think this second term, he's more of a vessel in the sense that he's got all of these great field generals who can now run the place.
And of all the field generals, the one that has just an incremental more degree of freedom to also communicate openly and continuously with the public is him.
So you'll get a sense of whether there's an arrhythmia by just monitoring his X feed.
You'll also get a sense of whether there's like a, you know, like if the drumbeat is building, I think you get a sense of that from Elon as well.
Yeah, I just, I can't think of, I mean, of course, the president has the power to launch nuclear weapons, so that trumps all power.
But as a private citizen, a non-president, I can't think of any time in 250 years where an American has had as much power as Elon Musk has.
In the sense that, you know, he's the most successful businessman by many measures.
He runs the most powerful media outlet in the world, which is X. And he has this mandate from the newly elected president of the United States to change the government.
I mean, nothing like that has ever happened that I know of.
Look, I got here last night, ate at the Pink Elephant, went to bed, and I felt guilty.
I thought, you know, shouldn't I be doing more yesterday?
I really thought that.
You know, and I saw my email kind of piling up, and I used you as an excuse.
Oh, I have to be fresh for talking about goodnight.
That's what I did.
So you're right.
And then I think, okay, I'm operating across an investment portfolio and one company that I run very intensely.
How do you do that multiplied by seven and all of these other...
I don't know how you do it.
I really don't know, Tucker.
I wish that there was an answer.
But I also think it's not the right thing to answer in the sense that we're all going to give some glib answer and everybody's going to try to run and copy it.
And I think what you forget is...
He is the product of 20 years of preparation.
He started with one company.
Then he started two companies.
Do you know what I mean?
I do.
So these are reps upon reps upon reps upon reps over decades.
And I think it's important to keep that in mind.
That is a level of skill.
He is demonstrating human peak-level performance.
It's easier to observe it in maybe an athlete or something else, but that's what he's demonstrating.
He is at the peak of human intellect.
That is the brain unencumbered by all the other stuff that maybe a lot of us get caught up in.
I never tell him these things, but there are things that he...
That's why I follow him, because part of it is, like, I get things from him in Twitter that really profoundly affect my life.
So when I was going through all of that turbulence in 2022, you know, he tweeted out, I think it was in 21, I can't remember when it was, but he's like, I've just sold all my homes and possessions.
And I went back.
Immediately I thought of, that is the one thing that I was taught as a Buddhist when I was raised Buddhist.
And despite all the stuff and all the anger that I had, and I never thought that Buddhism was all that effective or useful for me, I took one lesson.
Detach yourself from the physical world.
And I saw it and I connected that dot to myself and I said, I am the opposite of that.
I'm not a great Bible scholar, hardly, but I do keep this verse because I think it actually, I mean, it's 1 John 3. Do not love this world under the things it offers you, for when you love the world, you don't have the love of the Father in you.
For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and a pride in our achievements and possessions.
These are from the world.
And the world is fading away along with everything that people crave.
So speaking of bookends, we began this conversation with your description of your, I hate the word journey, but it is a journey to like a much higher level of self-awareness and peace.
You're ending by describing, you know, with admiration Elon's decision to detach himself from the world even as he engages in the things that he really loves.
Do you think that there is a greater spiritual awareness, a greater hunger in Silicon Valley where it matters because of the richest people in the country than there was?
I think that a lot of this extreme wealth was created in people that are in their 30s, some in their 20s, many of them are in their 40s.
And I think that over this next 10 or 15 years, there's going to be a crisis of identity when they realize that they were playing dumb games, focused on superficial things, beyond the companies themselves, and that there's a bigger purpose.
There needs to be a loyalty to country, loyalty to the state.
Loyalty to the people around you that you don't even know.
Not to virtue signal, but to actually just do the hard practical work.
Part of that is rooted, I think, in a spirituality.
That's not there yet.
But I think that it will become cool again.
Sorry.
It can become cool again.
I believe in God.
And the reason I believe in God, and if I were to tell my friends in Silicon Valley, the way that I would incept this idea would be purely from a scientific lens, which is, if you believe it is true, which I think most people do, that there is a finite moment in which the universe began, explain not the process.
But explain the moment.
And you cannot.
And it is an endless rabbit hole that if you spend your time, and again, when I was feeling very empty, that's where I started.
And I read all about, I read about Islam, I read about Christianity, I read about Judaism, I re-read about Buddhism.
And the only explanation is God.
And I think that that's a way where people there can be, you know, they'll let their guard down.
Because if you start a conversation about physics and cosmology and people are very open-minded.
There is no first principles explanation for how the world, for how the universe began.
There is none.
Don't tell me about the Big Bang Theory.
It doesn't work.
Don't tell me about general relativity because it all breaks.
We have to make these profound assumptions in math and physics to make it all hang together because you cannot tell me what t equals zero right at that moment.
How?
Nobody can answer the how.
And so, Then if you look at this entire lived world around you, I don't know, I'm filled with this immense gratitude and that I think it must be God.
And that gives me something.
I didn't have that before.
And so I take that.
I'm not trying to push that on other people, but that works for me.
You know, it makes me a better husband, makes me a better dad, it makes me a better friend.
I do things now that I, you know, when the fires were happening, you know, my friends, I just round robin.
I just kept calling them every day to check in on them.
It's a small thing, right?
But these are values that I had lost somewhere along the way, where, you know, just like, just calling people, caring about people.
One of my friends lost the home.
I spent an entire afternoon.
Not an entire afternoon, sorry.
Again, I don't want to overplay it.
I spent like an hour or so going through all my Google photos, clicking through and finding all the photos of him, our friends, so that we can make him an album.
Because he lost everything.
And yeah, you get the clothes, whatever, but these picture albums, they mean a lot.
And I was happy.
And I felt really Like a useful, good person at the end of that.
Meaning, we're actually just going to focus on merit and get incredible people.
And it'll turn out that you'll get your diversity wish, but you're not going to get it by mandating it and forcing it down our throats.
We're just going to get the best people.
And then the best people are just going to go and kick ass together.
We're going to get an ecology that we protect and love because we want to be out there hunting, fishing, camping, living it, skiing it, whatever it is.
But we're going to get there because we actually manage it and take care of it and clean up all of the stuff that would otherwise burn it to the ground.
So we're going to test.
All of this stuff.
And I think it's going to work.
And then the other thing we need to do is we need to cut down all of these things that are these little ropes that are pulling us all back.
Meaning, this is a stretch, but I'll use myself in this example.
I think I'm one of those 50,000 people that can go and ram and jam for Team USA. I can.
I've been...
You know, there are moments where I've been really dunking on people, you know, if this was a basketball analogy.
I want to do more of that.
I want Team USA to kick ass.
I just want it to be a little bit easier.
And so I hope that we figure out a way, instead of having 60,000 little regulations and people that want to lord over us, just give us 10,000 and just trust us that we're trying to do the right thing.
And if we don't, fine.
Trust but verify.
And if we screw up, fine, hold us accountable.
But just give us a chance so that we can just make sure that USA, Team America, that idea is the singular organizing function for America.
So it turns out that YouTube is suppressing this show.
On one level, that's not surprising.
That's what they do.
But on another level, it's shocking.
With everything that's going on in the world right now, all the change taking place in our economy and our politics, with the wars on the cusp of fighting right now, Google has decided you should have less information rather than more.
And that is totally wrong.
It's immoral.
What can you do about it?
Well, we could whine about it.
That's a waste of time.
We're not in charge of Google.
Or we could find a way around it, a way that you could actually get information that is true, not intentionally deceptive.
The way to do that on YouTube, we think, is to subscribe to our channel.
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