True Anon Truth Feed - Episode 465: 09A — The Eastern Front
Aired: 2025-06-12
Duration: 02:16:58


=== Esoteric Hitlerism? (02:22) ===

[00:00:56]  Ladies and gentlemen, hello, welcome, welcome, welcome.
[00:00:59]  Hello, I'm Liz.
[00:01:01]  My name is Brace, and we're, of course, joined by producer Young Chomsky.
[00:01:06]  There he is, and this is Tronan.
[00:01:08]  Hello.
[00:01:09]  Hello.
[00:01:11]  How are you doing?
[00:01:13]  Good.
[00:01:14]  Brace.
[00:01:14]  Yes.
[00:01:15]  What do you know about esoteric Hitlerism?
[00:01:18]  I, well, I'm more into mainstream Hitlerism, frankly.
[00:01:20]  Interesting.
[00:01:21]  I'm taking a page from your book, but esoteric.
[00:01:24]  Actually, I'll be honest.
[00:01:25]  When we did the Spider Network episodes, I'd known about esoteric Hitlerism because it's just like around, but I never really read about it.
[00:01:31]  I did read about it then, and it is just completely.
[00:01:36]  Wait, is it around?
[00:01:37]  What do you mean it's around?
[00:01:38]  It's like around, you know what I mean?
[00:01:39]  Like, it's like people still, we talk about it in this episode.
[00:01:42]  Like, people still sort of believe in it.
[00:01:44]  But the problem is, and this is, this is my struggle with a lot of like extreme right-wing stuff, is these guys write so much.
[00:01:51]  It's like tweaker style.
[00:01:53]  And all I do think that, I mean, a lot of them be tweaking.
[00:01:57]  I know, but it feels like I'm like entering into like lore for some like fucking fantasy like IP that I've never heard of before.
[00:02:08]  And then I have to like kind of come in at the middle because it's like all these muddled sort of like, you know, oriental, you know, mysticism ideas mixed with oftentimes like the person's own mental illness.
[00:02:22]  Nobody's got new ideas.
[00:02:23]  Everything's just a hybrid.
[00:02:24]  I will say esoteric Hitlerism did seem kind of like a new idea.
[00:02:28]  I guess it was a hybrid, but nobody thought to combine Hitler with Hindu before then.
[00:02:35]  You know?
[00:02:36]  Yeah.
[00:02:37]  But yeah, it was started by a woman, you know?
[00:02:44]  Kind of your guys' thing.
[00:02:46]  Don't put it on me.
[00:02:47]  No?
[00:02:48]  Well, we are, like you said, talking a little bit about esoteric Hitlerism, but about a lot of other things.
[00:02:56]  We're talking about a lot of different kinds of Hitlerisms.
[00:02:58]  There's all different kinds, apparently.
[00:03:00]  We have every Hitlerism I think that there is.
[00:03:03]  We have a black Hitler.
[00:03:05]  We have a regular Hitler, many regular Hitlers.
[00:03:08]  We have esoteric Hitlerism.
[00:03:10]  We have kind of like liberal Hitlerism.
[00:03:14]  We have kind of like syncretic Hitlerism as well.
[00:03:17]  It's like we're doing like left-wing.

=== Hitlerisms Galore (03:32) ===

[00:03:19]  So do you remember?
[00:03:21]  Fuck, what was his name?
[00:03:23]  This was like one of my favorite guys.
[00:03:24]  His name was Matthew something.
[00:03:27]  But he was like a sort of pre-alt-right Nazi figure who was kind of like a portly, kind of fucked up looking guy.
[00:03:37]  It's not Matthew Heimbach, is it?
[00:03:39]  Yes, Matthew Heimbach.
[00:03:40]  So Matthew Heimbach, who now has some like sort of 70s European style, like we're a Nazi group, but like left-wing or whatever, you know, like they have like a hammer and sickle.
[00:03:51]  I don't know.
[00:03:51]  Who knows?
[00:03:52]  Do you remember like the cuck like battle that he had?
[00:03:56]  No.
[00:03:57]  I can't.
[00:03:58]  I don't even know.
[00:03:59]  I'm sorry.
[00:03:59]  I don't know.
[00:04:00]  I don't know about a lot of this.
[00:04:02]  I mean, it's a little like too online for me.
[00:04:05]  Yeah.
[00:04:05]  Well, this happened in real life.
[00:04:09]  Well, everything online is also real life.
[00:04:10]  But I just mean like it's all coming from so much of the internet that I'm not.
[00:04:16]  So this is from an SPLC article.
[00:04:22]  TWP, which I think is Traditionalist Workers' Party, chief Matthew Heimbach arrested for battery after a fair with top spokesman's wife.
[00:04:32]  And the strange incident began just after 1 a.m. Tuesday when Matt Parrott, 36, called police from a Walmart near his home.
[00:04:41]  He fled to the Walmart with his stepdaughter after a violent confrontation with Heimbach.
[00:04:46]  The stepdaughter told police that Heimbach and Parrott's wife, so two Matthews, the stepdaughter told police that Heimbach and Parrott's wife had been having an affair for three months.
[00:04:56]  Heimbach and Parrott's wife said the fling had ended.
[00:04:59]  The stepdaughter and Parrot's wife tried to set up Heimbach to see if he would continue the affair after saying it was over.
[00:05:06]  During the setup at Parrot's Paoli trailer home, Matthew Parrott and his stepdaughter waited outside, standing on a box and watching through a window, police said.
[00:05:16]  A confrontation ensued between Heimbach and Matt Parrott.
[00:05:19]  Parrot told police Heimbach twisted him down to the ground and then choked him out.
[00:05:24]  He grabbed and injured my hand after I poked his chest and then choked me out with his arm, Parrott said in a handwritten statement to police.
[00:05:30]  Then he chased me to my home and did it again.
[00:05:33]  So in the report, all four people involved in the incident recorded their occupation as white nationalists.
[00:05:40]  So I guess.
[00:05:42]  So, I mean, what happened here is this Heimbach had been fucking his friend's wife.
[00:05:47]  He said it ended.
[00:05:49]  And then the stepdaughter and the husband of the woman set him up and watched.
[00:05:55]  And then the dad got, oh, not, yeah, the dad or stepfather, whatever, got beat up by the guy who was fucking his wife.
[00:06:04]  This actually makes Heimbach look pretty, you know, like he's the one who's indisputably in charge of this group.
[00:06:11]  You know, this is why, you know, our more Vanguard-est political movements in the U.S. today are going poly because it's to mitigate the sort of you don't have to worry about any all these, yeah, because you watch a bunch of Instagrams on decolonizing polyamory, which obviously I'm a big subscriber of, and then you realize that jealousy is just you got to make a lot of videos.
[00:06:33]  If you come polyamorous, you got to look at the camera and make videos and be like, I'm not jealous at all.
[00:06:38]  I don't care.
[00:06:39]  I think it's good.
[00:06:40]  When hubby's having snugglies in the California King bed and I'm out here watching fucking The Pit, you know, that to me is like a perfect in that California King, isn't it?

=== Welcome to the Show (02:14) ===

[00:06:52]  Always in the California.
[00:06:53]  I want a California King so bad.
[00:06:54]  I am the California King.
[00:06:56]  I know.
[00:06:57]  But I like it.
[00:06:58]  I like it.
[00:06:58]  I like to roll around on there.
[00:07:02]  Put my shoes up.
[00:07:03]  What do we got today?
[00:07:04]  We are talking about the Order of the Nine Angles.
[00:07:08]  We are talking about 764.
[00:07:12]  We are talking about neo-Nazis in all over the world, in Russia, in Ukraine.
[00:07:19]  We are talking about Terragram.
[00:07:20]  We are talking about some pretty nasty stuff.
[00:07:23]  Yeah.
[00:07:24]  And it's, you know, it's a bit of a doozy.
[00:07:26]  So let's get to it.
[00:07:43]  Privit.
[00:07:45]  Pani te panove.
[00:07:49]  Slava brace beldin u podkast truanon.
[00:07:56]  And we would like to welcome to the show.
[00:07:58]  I'm switching to English now, of course.
[00:08:00]  We would like to welcome to the show Peter, who writes the Substack blog, events in Ukraine, and is also, I should add, a freelance journalist.
[00:08:10]  That makes it sound like an advertisement.
[00:08:12]  I guess I need to work on that a little bit more.
[00:08:14]  It's early.
[00:08:15]  It's just a little background here.
[00:08:17]  It's early for us here, but Peter is in, so it's very late for him there.
[00:08:24]  And so there's, my brain isn't working very quickly at all.
[00:08:28]  And I just got to say, Peter, thank you so much for joining us, even though it's five in the morning there.
[00:08:33]  I don't even know what time it is over here.
[00:08:35]  Thanks a lot for having me, Ova.
[00:08:36]  I really appreciate it.
[00:08:37]  Great to see you guys.
[00:08:38]  We have a lot to talk about today.
[00:08:41]  And I think some of this might be of interest to our listeners that have been bugging us to do a 764 episode or an Order of the Nine Angles episode.
[00:08:52]  This is kind of like one of those episodes, except I would say a little more Ukraine-focused.
[00:08:59]  And I think the first thing that we really want to start with here is a story that kind of flew under the radar.

=== Two Attempts on Trump's Life (03:08) ===

[00:09:06]  I mean, like, I think people read about it, and it was one of those things you read about, you read maybe the headline, and then you kind of just forgot about it because nothing really happened.
[00:09:14]  But the story of a Wisconsin teenager, 17-year-old kid named Nikita Kasap, who murdered his parents.
[00:09:23]  And I think this is the reason it was really big national news, was maybe planning on killing the president of the United States, Donald J. Trump.
[00:09:32]  So you've written about this guy.
[00:09:35]  What's his deal?
[00:09:37]  Well, I mean, as far as I could tell, there's very little known about this guy.
[00:09:43]  He was a young man.
[00:09:46]  And I mean, he did, there were, because sometimes when you look at this story, it seems like nothing happened.
[00:09:50]  But I mean, he did kill his parents.
[00:09:52]  That must have been pretty bad for them and for everyone involved.
[00:09:56]  So he was definitely capable of some things, at least.
[00:10:02]  And even though, you know, there is some sort of pattern, I suppose.
[00:10:08]  There was that other attempt on Trump's life during the elections, right?
[00:10:15]  Yes.
[00:10:15]  Well, there was the two attempts on Trump's life.
[00:10:18]  One of which I should add, we still know basically nothing about.
[00:10:21]  And the other of which I would say comes from a different angle of maybe Ukraine supporter, I think is a way to term it.
[00:10:28]  I'm not so sure that necessarily Nikita's in the same boat here, who seems to have just been kind of maybe extremely bipolar.
[00:10:38]  It's also difficult to call that one an attempt.
[00:10:40]  Yeah.
[00:10:40]  Well, he was in the bushes.
[00:10:42]  I think it was the first time.
[00:10:43]  He attempted an attempt or something.
[00:10:44]  Yeah, it's a long time to sit in the bushes.
[00:10:47]  Yeah.
[00:10:48]  And the guy that shot Trump's ear, he sort of looked a bit similar to this Cassap guy, quite a sort of, you know, basement dweller type of physiognomy.
[00:10:58]  Ugly.
[00:11:00]  Yeah.
[00:11:00]  He was also killed instantly by the, by the, I mean, right after there was that whole thing where he was somehow able to sort of gather with his with his gun and then shoot, as I understand, in this event that was, you know, meant to be or was guarded or monitored by the whatever the American secret forces is that secret services, that's right.
[00:11:25]  But then he was able to sort of set up, and there were videos of him setting up as well, and people saw him setting up and he shot and supposedly, or I mean, I guess did, right?
[00:11:35]  I mean, shoot Trump's ear and also kill someone in the crowd or something.
[00:11:40]  Yeah, he shot a firefighter.
[00:11:42]  Yeah, and someone got killed there.
[00:11:44]  But then he got killed instantly after, which was, you know, interesting.
[00:11:48]  But then with Kassap, I mean, he got arrested.
[00:11:52]  And the sort of the main reason why, I mean, I wrote about it and the sort of interesting aspect of it was that the FBI had this whole affidavit or whatever it's called.
[00:12:04]  I think it's an affidavit released online, which involved his basically his online messages.

=== Online Messages Revealed (15:39) ===

[00:12:15]  And he'd spent a lot of time on Telegram, the messaging app, which is very popular among these.
[00:12:21]  I mean, I think like, you know, beyond the whole Ukraine-Russia links, whatever, because I mean, it did claim that he was in contact with a Russian-speaking person in Ukraine.
[00:12:31]  Beyond this, you know, like maybe that was not true, whatever.
[00:12:34]  I think it can be sort of fairly reasonably stated that this was a deranged person, right?
[00:12:40]  He killed his parents.
[00:12:42]  And there are lots of communities for these deranged people on Telegram that are sort of interested in these ideas of right-wing accelerationism.
[00:12:52]  And he was, according to the FBI affidavit, he was interested in these right-wing accelerationist ideas that we need to bring about kind of chaos to destroy the government.
[00:13:02]  And then we can have, because apparently, you know, he talked in these messages how we can't elect Hitler.
[00:13:08]  It's not possible.
[00:13:10]  So we need to.
[00:13:11]  Which is weird because they did elect Hitler the first time.
[00:13:14]  Apparently no longer possible.
[00:13:15]  Apparently, in the current age, the sort of the liberals is.
[00:13:19]  Okay, so he's an ultra-rightist.
[00:13:21]  He's like, electoralism is no longer.
[00:13:23]  Exactly, exactly.
[00:13:24]  I mean, yeah.
[00:13:26]  And so they think that it's necessary to accelerate the decay of Western liberal civilization by acts of mass violence and school shootings and so on.
[00:13:37]  Anyway, I mean, like, if you kill your parents, I'm sure you're into these sort of things.
[00:13:40]  And there are real communities of these people on Telegram.
[00:13:44]  It's a place where there's not much censorship and so on and so on.
[00:13:47]  There's this whole phenomenon of terror gram, which we.
[00:13:51]  I think that's how people might know it because it's always referred in the U.S., at least in the news, as Terror Gram, as like this kind of constellation of all these different channels or Discord, even including Discords and different chat groups where there's a kind of just like new online communities where they're all sharing all these different manifestos and like, I don't know, like kill the Jews.
[00:14:17]  That's what I imagine.
[00:14:18]  Lots of knife emojis.
[00:14:19]  I don't really know what goes on there.
[00:14:21]  Some of it, it's interesting because I've looked at some of it.
[00:14:25]  In fact, because we were supposed to, we were going to do this episode a couple of weeks ago before we just rescheduled it or whatever.
[00:14:33]  But I had started looking at some of this stuff and I'd heard about it.
[00:14:37]  I'd read about it.
[00:14:38]  And it's really like rotten.com.
[00:14:40]  Some of it's like rotten.com taken to like a thousand Or rate my poo taken to a thousand.
[00:14:47]  And rate my poo was a website that I looked at when I was in middle school.
[00:14:51]  It was an all, it was sort of a healthier alternative to ran.com and you rated poo.
[00:14:57]  Um, but it was just it was the first website I ever saw, anyways.
[00:15:00]  But so some of them have like, yes, like this sort of like extreme gore, sometimes war footage.
[00:15:05]  And then there's a lot of, and I didn't see any of this stuff, um, you know, child sex exploitation material.
[00:15:11]  Um, there's a lot of uh things that are sort of a mixture between child sex exploitation and violence.
[00:15:18]  Uh, there's a lot of extortion and blackmailing on young kids that these people meet on Roblox and Minecraft, et cetera, Discord, and then they post the videos of the things they get these kids to do in the fucking chats.
[00:15:30]  And then there's this sort of like worship of like Anders Breivik or Brandon Tarant and like these kind of these mass shooters.
[00:15:40]  And sometimes that's in a very political way.
[00:15:42]  And then sometimes, and I think this is almost becoming more common, it's just in a straight up nihilistic way with like out really any pretenses of like politics.
[00:15:52]  And, you know, I was looking through the affidavit about Nikita Kasap.
[00:15:58]  And, you know, the FBI is saying, you know, he killed his parents, right?
[00:16:06]  And he like sits in the house with them for about 12 days.
[00:16:09]  And he's like messaging his boys on these chats on Telegram, who the government's saying are Russian speaking or whatever, based in somewhere in Eastern Europe.
[00:16:21]  And they're like giving him advice on how to basically hide his parents' bodies, which by the way was bad advice because the advice was put blankets over them.
[00:16:30]  Well, I'm sorry, when the police come to your house and they see these bundles of blankets on the floor and they're like, we're looking for the possible dead bodies of people, they're going to lift the blanket.
[00:16:38]  Maybe he's meant to like hide it from you.
[00:16:41]  Like, yeah, you don't got to see it.
[00:16:43]  Peekaboo.
[00:16:44]  But it seems pretty clear, Peter, that he was like kind of enmeshed in this world.
[00:16:51]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:16:54]  And I mean, I think it's, it's an important point, what you said, about how they're not really political.
[00:16:59]  I mean, if you look at the sort of the this, because there's this other network that we'll probably be mentioning, like the 764, which is particularly focused on exploiting, manipulating teens, young people on the internet, often sort of meant, they fight, they'll go to like, I mean, it's very depressing.
[00:17:19]  I mean, it's kind of sad because what's happening now is that it's kind of like, you know, I mean, it's kind of being framed in this satanic panic thing.
[00:17:26]  And it's sort of sometimes there's this feeling that it's easy.
[00:17:29]  Maybe, you know, maybe this is just kind of a right-wing hysteria.
[00:17:32]  You know, it doesn't exist.
[00:17:33]  But I mean, it does exist.
[00:17:34]  It is kind of depressing, you know, because they go on these subreddits for, you know, teens that self-harm, right?
[00:17:42]  And there's self, there's subreddits for these teens that self-harm where they're trying to kind of, they kind of support each other without being judgmental, I suppose.
[00:17:50]  And then these 764 people will go on there and sort of encourage them to cut more, which is also like, it's hard to sort of distinguish sometimes who's real, who's not.
[00:17:59]  But then they make a bit, and then they encourage people to kill themselves or to cut really, you know, all kinds of really awful things.
[00:18:05]  And also like money extortion, they get, you know, and then they'll get sort of nude photos of these children and they'll extort them for money or just to kill themselves.
[00:18:13]  But it's very nihilistic.
[00:18:14]  Like, I mean, it's not the point is just for, you know, this gore type of thing of this nihilistic killing themselves, killing their pets, that that's another thing, or like their family members and so on.
[00:18:27]  But like, but I mean, it's not really ideologically, I mean, they like Hitler, but they like Hitler as someone who did bad things, who was like a crazy, crazy motherfucker, you know, like, but you know, if you look at there was this big 764 case in the US, they arrested this guy and he was like, I mean, not to be, you know, racial or whatever, but he was Mexican.
[00:18:48]  He was, he was very brown, right?
[00:18:50]  Like there was, there were a fair few articles about this guy, and he was very into Hitler and whatever.
[00:18:54]  And there was also this recent shooting in the U.S. by this black guy as well.
[00:19:00]  And he was also...
[00:19:01]  That's right.
[00:19:01]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:02]  And he was also in this community.
[00:19:05]  He sort of professed to be like anti-black Anyway, I mean, what I'm saying is No, no, I should add There was two school shootings There was, there was Solomon, and then there was another, a 15-year-old girl who shot up her school.
[00:19:17]  I can't remember if it was in Wisconsin, but somewhere in the Midwest.
[00:19:20]  And it turns out that they had known each other, but they did very similar sort of like, there's these kind of tells these people have.
[00:19:26]  It's weird.
[00:19:27]  A lot of it seems like almost Xerox copies of the mass shootings that they kind of worship or like get into these reenactments.
[00:19:35]  Exactly.
[00:19:35]  And so like, they'll do the thing where they have, like, do like the OK symbol, which is, you know, throwback to 2017 or whatever.
[00:19:43]  They do the OK symbol and like take a picture of them sitting in a bathroom stall, I guess, getting ready to go do the mass shooting with like a combat boots on and like the okay symbol.
[00:19:53]  And I thought it was very interesting that like the two people that did this, that did these mass shootings don't really fit the profile of what you might think of of people sort of being connected to these transnational sort of online Nazi, I guess, as shorthand, but really just like nihilistic violence groups.
[00:20:14]  Because one was, yeah, like a young black kid and then the other was a young white girl.
[00:20:19]  And those generally are not.
[00:20:21]  I mean, you think of somebody more who looks like maybe Thomas Crooks doing something like this.
[00:20:26]  Yeah.
[00:20:26]  I mean, there was also a case, like there was a school shooting in Russia in 2024 that I wrote about as well.
[00:20:32]  And it was committed by a young girl, a 14-year-old girl.
[00:20:36]  And it was the first.
[00:20:37]  I mean, there aren't that many mass shootings in general in Russia until kind of recently.
[00:20:42]  And obviously none were by a woman.
[00:20:44]  So this was also a first.
[00:20:46]  But yeah, I mean, I guess the whole kind of the difficulty of talking about this sort of things, right, is with school shootings and so on is you don't want to sound too crazy, right?
[00:21:01]  Because it's kind of easy to sort of start sounding really crazy.
[00:21:04]  But on the other hand, on the other hand, these are real things that are happening, right?
[00:21:09]  I mean, in sort of the societies we live in and around the world.
[00:21:13]  And these people do like this obvious, it's not sort of some kind of debated fact.
[00:21:21]  I mean, they are, how I want to call it, like radicalized, whatever, in these online communities.
[00:21:25]  So it kind of makes sense to look at these online communities because ultimately, I mean, if you're a sad kid at school, it's not really a logical next step to start killing other people.
[00:21:37]  Like that's not really something that is the logical next step.
[00:21:39]  It really does take being online and being told that by other people that seem to be, I mean, often they're sort of one interesting thing is they often kind of idolize these the leaders of these groups.
[00:21:51]  I mean, there's like this fairly ridiculous, but seemingly real, at least at some point in the past few years, the maniac murderers cult.
[00:22:01]  And I mean, when you look at the testimony of people that were kind of involved in this, they often sort of say that they were, including like young women, for instance, that they were very, they really idolized the leader of this group who told them to like commit school shootings or whatever.
[00:22:16]  And he was kind of this young man who had lots of selfies and kind of looked a little bit like, I don't know, like a Nazi little peep sort of thing, lots of face tattoos and so on.
[00:22:25]  A Nazi little peep?
[00:22:27]  I mean, I don't know, I guess.
[00:22:28]  Isn't that kind of the look?
[00:22:30]  It's kind of a look, but also I remember the guy from Red Guards Austin kind of looked like, not, I'm going to say Nazi little peep, but he looked like, I also had a kind of little peep thing going on there.
[00:22:39]  He had a crazy background.
[00:22:40]  Lil Pepe instead of little peep.
[00:22:43]  Yeah.
[00:22:43]  I think a lot of, I mean, you know, I got friends with face tattoos, obviously mostly MS-13, so it's just for work.
[00:22:50]  But like, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, if the guy is like leading your political movement has a lot of face tattoos, I'm like, well, maybe.
[00:22:58]  True, but I mean, I was just making the point that like Lil Peep, SoundCloud rappers, all that sort of stuff, it's really, really popular in Russia, in Ukraine.
[00:23:07]  Like the kids love it.
[00:23:08]  So, I mean, it's just kind of a sexy thing and the kids love it.
[00:23:13]  So, I mean, I was just kind of saying in the sense that to start killing your, what's it, your, your peers, you sort of need to have a voice of authority sort of encouraging you in some sense to do this.
[00:23:24]  Like, you don't really get this idea by yourself.
[00:23:27]  And even if this idea came to you, it would sort of in terms of the commitment required to do that.
[00:23:31]  Anyway, so like, I mean, it does kind of make sense to try and figure out where this comes from because it really, you know, it does, it doesn't really require believing that, you know, maybe it's some, you know, government intelligence service telling people to do this.
[00:23:44]  Like, you know, maybe, maybe not, or maybe, but I mean, someone at least is definitely encouraging kids to do this.
[00:23:51]  And maybe it's just the random group of, you know, weird people on the internet.
[00:23:56]  Maybe whatever else.
[00:23:58]  But like, I guess that's the grounding assumption, but it's kind of a logical assumption to make, I guess, from moving that we can continue our discussion from there, I suppose.
[00:24:09]  Yeah, I mean, well, I think that leads us pretty neatly into another character we sort of have to talk about, which would be Joshua Sutter, who I thought we had talked about on this show because I had a bunch of notes on him, but I don't know if they're connected to actually any episode that we did.
[00:24:26]  The journalist Ali Winston has done a lot on Sutter and actually a lot on all of this.
[00:24:33]  I really like his work.
[00:24:34]  But Joshua Caleb Sutter is an interesting character who sort of provides a bit of connective tissue for some of this stuff.
[00:24:46]  He is a Satanist neo-Nazi who was actually formerly, and I actually got really too, I looked at this for way too long.
[00:24:56]  I think he was formerly Hindu.
[00:24:57]  I can't remember exactly which he subscribed to some Eastern religion.
[00:25:01]  I'm sure it was like fucking whatever that Nazi esoteric Hitlerism or whatever, but I'm sure he did Hinduism in a scary way.
[00:25:08]  But he was he was previously, you know, some kind of Eastern religionist and also involved in a pro Juche, like North Korean party here that seemed to be made up of him and a few other sort of mentally ill people who sort of.
[00:25:26]  Are you telling me that that's not a large party here?
[00:25:29]  Well, you know, it's interesting.
[00:25:30]  I mean, I've mentioned this on the show before.
[00:25:31]  I mean, it does have some purchase in Nepal, for instance, where the only non-North Korean Juche party actually governs a relative to Nepal-size, you know, sort of mid-sized city there, which is just, but that says more about Nepal's sort of political scene, which is, I think, fascinating.
[00:25:49]  But this guy, Joshua Caleb Sutter, became sort of involved in these kind of, I guess, esoteric movements in general.
[00:25:57]  I think it's fair to say that like a Juge, American Juj party, even among like, you know, sort of the oftentimes these highly hyphenated communist parties in America is fairly esoteric and became a neo-Nazi white power Satanist FBI informant.
[00:26:19]  Yeah.
[00:26:20]  And I mean, it is worth mentioning.
[00:26:21]  But I repeat myself.
[00:26:23]  It is worth mentioning that the FBI informant, it's not something, you know, that's speculated upon.
[00:26:28]  I mean, this was proven by a U.S. court hearing, right?
[00:26:33]  Like, because there was this, there was this event.
[00:26:36]  I mean, Rolling Stone has this big article about it and so on.
[00:26:38]  And there are lots of places you can read about it, where basically it was, I think it was 2022.
[00:26:43]  It was quite recently.
[00:26:44]  I mean, Sato has been a neo-Nazi freak for a long, long time, like 25 years or so.
[00:26:50]  But in 2022, there was this American military serviceman who was really into these Telegram communities of these Sato's communities and so on, and these different right-wing accelerationist groups.
[00:27:05]  And he was being deployed to Turkey and he was arrested, not in Turkey, but in, I can't remember where, but like, I think Greece or something, whatever, but like on his way to Turkey, because he was planning to commit some kind of mass shooting event at the military base in Turkey, and he hoped this would draw the U.S. into a new Middle Eastern war and this would like lead to the disintegration of the world and so on.
[00:27:30]  And then at the trial of this guy, it was revealed that Martinet Press, which is the neo-Nazi right-wing accelerationist publication that Satur has run for the past 20, 25 years, and Saturn himself, Saturn is an FBI informant, and he's received over 140,000 US dollars over the years from the FBI.

=== Calm Hackers and Zines (14:50) ===

[00:27:54]  And I mean, and another thing that I kind of found out somewhat recently about, well, I mean, I actually knew this for a while, but I didn't really put the dots together.
[00:28:02]  I thought that would be too in your face.
[00:28:04]  But I mean, what's it?
[00:28:06]  Saturn, before Martin Press, he had Angleton imprints.
[00:28:10]  But this was literally named, yeah, like, and it had the face of James Jesus Angleton on it.
[00:28:15]  Like, it wasn't, so I mean, he, I mean, they're often quite, you know, so James Angleton, he was what, like the, what was, it was like not the CIA or was it the CAA?
[00:28:25]  I don't know.
[00:28:25]  He was the CIA.
[00:28:26]  Yeah.
[00:28:26]  He was like, he was sort of, he was sort of the gaunt figure who went crazy in the wilderness of mirrors.
[00:28:35]  He, but he, I think he, he has a bit of like, I think he strikes sort of a melancholic and romantic figure to some people.
[00:28:43]  And so maybe that's why they chose it.
[00:28:44]  I don't know.
[00:28:45]  Well, I mean, they often really enjoy playing with this.
[00:28:48]  Like if you go on the different right-wing accelerationist communities, which is like, you know, not a great, great way to spend time.
[00:28:55]  But like they often have nicknames like or like usernames like MKUltra.
[00:29:00]  You know, like, yeah, they're really into this type of thing.
[00:29:02]  And I mean, I think that for them, I mean, I mean, there's other things we can talk about.
[00:29:07]  Often they'll say in interviews as well, I wish I was an FBI informant.
[00:29:11]  There's one guy in the Temple of Blood, I forget his name.
[00:29:14]  This is one of Sato's main organizations.
[00:29:17]  And he said in interviews that I wish I was.
[00:29:20]  People often accuse me of being an, oh, I think this is actually the Adam Wotham guy.
[00:29:24]  Anyway, all these organizations are all so kind of stupid and intertwined.
[00:29:28]  But in this interview, he said, I'm often accused of being an FBI agent.
[00:29:32]  I wish I was an FBI agent.
[00:29:33]  You know, that would be great.
[00:29:34]  And he repeats that many times.
[00:29:36]  But obviously, in the world of these kind of right-wing militia groups in the US, like in any other country, I mean, they're very, very infiltrated by the intelligence services.
[00:29:49]  And I think partly because they're so open about being like, you know, murderous forces of chaos, which would obviously attract attention from any law enforcement agencies, but also because they're all pretty stupid, pretty crazy, and they're all kind of into drugs and into all kinds of other very bad things.
[00:30:09]  And they have different, you know, they already have criminal records and so on.
[00:30:13]  But it is obviously noteworthy that Sada.
[00:30:17]  And so, I mean, I think at this point, probably we can mention that Sada from the early 2000s with Martin Press and Angleton Imprints and so on, he aligned himself with this ideological tradition of the Order of the Nine Angles, which is this kind of Satanist ideology created in the sort of late 1980s.
[00:30:41]  It claims to be sort of eternal.
[00:30:43]  It claims that it's existed forever in the British sort of bugs, the bug lands, but whatever.
[00:30:49]  But I mean, basically, it essentially emerged in the 1980s.
[00:30:52]  And I mean, it's not really worth going into this whole weird history of it.
[00:30:57]  It's like complex and strange.
[00:30:58]  But it is.
[00:30:59]  It involves a guy, I think, one of its main guys, I think, trying to join Al-Qaeda at one point.
[00:31:05]  Yeah, I mean, because this is the whole thing, like with the Juce thing, they had this idea of inside roles, where it's like you need to join different.
[00:31:14]  You can't just be a weird Satanist.
[00:31:16]  You need to sort of pretend to be normal and you also need to pretend to have other different identities, especially radical extreme identities.
[00:31:22]  So it could be an extreme, even a left-wing, extreme left-wing person, also a religious Christian or extreme Islamist and so on.
[00:31:30]  And then you can learn things from that.
[00:31:32]  But then this can level, you have to have all these different levels of leveling up.
[00:31:36]  Anyway, they have this whole, but Order of Nine Angles, they're Satanists, but they really, they think the other Satanists are stupid and sort of poses.
[00:31:45]  They're also very, I mean, the original Order of Nine Angels, it's very like intellectualist and very, very sort of like pretentious to read.
[00:31:54]  It seems like it came out of that like whole sort of almost like a adjacent to psychic TV kind of scene.
[00:32:00]  And maybe I'm reading too much into that because that was such a big thing in the UK in the 1980s, this like kind of like arts house, like, you know, sort of fake snuff film.
[00:32:10]  I'm weird.
[00:32:11]  I'm fucked up.
[00:32:12]  And also because I say that because Psychic TV had a temple of psychic youth, I think, or whatever it was.
[00:32:20]  But they spell the of in the same way, which I'm sure is some old Satanist thing, blah, It was also really trendy for a while.
[00:32:28]  But that's basically what I'm saying.
[00:32:29]  Like, it was trendy.
[00:32:31]  You know what I mean?
[00:32:31]  And so, like, it seems like Satanism has always been so difficult for me to take seriously because A, mostly- I really don't think you need to explain it.
[00:32:41]  Well, no, because, you know, Liz, you know, I'm becoming more informed about the other worlds out there of the God and the devil and things like that.
[00:32:49]  But I'm like, I really, Satanism seems like a really bad bargain.
[00:32:53]  If you're going to become a Christian, you get to go to heaven.
[00:32:56]  If you're going to be a Satanist, you get to go to, you are definitely going to hell, but you'll, maybe you'll have a good time there.
[00:33:01]  It seems crazy to me.
[00:33:03]  But it's tough to take Satanism seriously because so much of it is like, first of all, you basically think you're doing magic, which is okay, fair, true for a lot of religions as well.
[00:33:13]  But like, it's like literally sometimes like, we're doing spells and stuff like that.
[00:33:18]  And I'm like, no, you're not.
[00:33:19]  Yeah, I mean, I mean, one thing I should sort of, there's a lot of the sort of information about the Order of Nine Angels.
[00:33:29]  I mean, so the Order of Nine Angles, this is podcast, the Empire Never Ended.
[00:33:33]  They did lots of interesting stuff about that.
[00:33:35]  And I really can't say that I have better expertise than them on Order of Nine Angles.
[00:33:41]  I understand the Ukrainian Russian thing a bit better.
[00:33:44]  But in terms of Order of Nine Angles, from what I could gather from sort of listening to them and reading about them, and they did come out of the UK, you know, hardcore neo-Nazi, you know, street militia scene.
[00:33:55]  But then, you know, obviously the sort of the leader and this guy, David Myat, I mean, who knows what his real name was, all these different whatever, who cares?
[00:34:01]  And he had different identities, whatever.
[00:34:03]  But, you know, you read things that were probably written by him, and it's very, very pretentious.
[00:34:07]  Like, you know, I read this one thing where it's him with his girlfriend and he was really into like drawing paintings with a period blood.
[00:34:16]  And they're really into like woman in, you know, in this, they have this idea of this, you know, woman sorcerer thing, and they think that's really cool.
[00:34:24]  Anyway, that's the sort of, you know, whatever, but like that's the Order of Nine Angles.
[00:34:29]  And I actually, weirdly, I know people that are sort of into this.
[00:34:33]  I mean, you know, it's the whole Wiccan type of thing, but it's more like smarter people, I think, who think that they're like, you know, smarter.
[00:34:39]  People think they're smarter.
[00:34:40]  And it's like, and I, and like, it does always seem like just a little like subculture-y to me.
[00:34:45]  You know what I mean?
[00:34:46]  Like, I looked at some of Martin Press's books because A, they're on Amazon.
[00:34:50]  I didn't look them on there.
[00:34:51]  They're on, I think, Internet Archive too.
[00:34:53]  And I was like, oh, these are kind of like zines.
[00:34:55]  Like, you guys are doing like, I'm a weird guy zine.
[00:34:58]  But I will, I will, like, just say that Martin Press, like, that's the whole Sutter thing.
[00:35:02]  And that is like, you know, I mean, as I understand, I mean, as an intent, it's a fact.
[00:35:08]  I mean, the Order of Nine Angles, all that stuff, they're also totally crazy and they have all kinds of, you know, pedophilia, whatever sort of thing.
[00:35:14]  But I mean, Caleb Sutter and Martin the Press, they really took it to a whole new level in terms of the whole pedophilia thing, the murdering children thing.
[00:35:22]  That's kind of what these novels are about.
[00:35:23]  I mean, it's not kind of explicitly what they're about, especially just like, you know, killing, sexually assaulting in very like crazy ways children and all kinds of people.
[00:35:35]  They're really into this.
[00:35:36]  And their books, I mean, it's kind of, they are like zines, but they're intended to be read.
[00:35:43]  And I mean, there's this really crazy line where it's like, what's it like human IEDs?
[00:35:50]  That's one line that's used.
[00:35:52]  I think it was from the, yeah, there was like, I think, is this the journalist you mentioned, Nate Taya?
[00:35:57]  But this is just from the Rolling Stone article about the whole Caleb Sutter thing.
[00:36:02]  And they were saying how these books that Sutter wrote or published through his Martinette Press, it's like the equivalent of creating human IEDs, people who are wired for violence and disconnected enough from morality that they have no compunction about abuse, torture, pedophilia, and the other practices.
[00:36:18]  And I mean, that is, I mean, I haven't really read these things beyond some sort of extracts.
[00:36:22]  I kind of don't really care enough.
[00:36:24]  No, I think the thing that I looked at, because they have the novel, they put out novels, but then they also have, I guess, these kind of zines, I guess it was by like a bunch of different people.
[00:36:38]  They kind of remind me of those, what are they called?
[00:36:40]  Like, I think it's called like Apocalypse Confidential or something like that.
[00:36:43]  Or like, they're just like, there was so much of this shit in the 1990s of people like basically making like compilation zines of like all your craziest stuff.
[00:36:51]  I remember reading when I was younger, there was one, you know, because this stuff was like floating around kind of the punk scene.
[00:36:58]  Not this stuff, but like, you know, whatever, the like the Jim Goad kind of shit.
[00:37:03]  Like an interview with a lady who was a mortician who made love to the corpses in her, in her care.
[00:37:11]  And it was like, you know, sort of presented as a straight interview.
[00:37:13]  And I remember reading it and being like, wow, people here are crazy.
[00:37:17]  And I guess this sort of seems of a piece with that, but like, obviously to a much greater level.
[00:37:24]  And then it seems like, you know, like Sutter is clearly a fucking freak on a level like that is difficult for, I don't think, I don't know actually if I've met a person like this before in my life.
[00:37:35]  I sure hope I have not.
[00:37:38]  But Sutter was really active in promoting 764, right?
[00:37:42]  Like that's my understanding is that that was like one of the big focus says of the last few years.
[00:37:51]  As I understand, he has been.
[00:37:53]  And I guess with 764, it's this weird thing because it's not an organization, right?
[00:37:58]  It's kind of like a lot of these things.
[00:38:00]  I mean, you know, with the Order of Man Angles, for instance, it's the same thing.
[00:38:03]  It's not an organization.
[00:38:04]  There's no leader, right?
[00:38:06]  I mean, there was this guy that sort of wrote that may have written the texts and whatever, but who knows?
[00:38:11]  But it's not an organization.
[00:38:12]  They have different like nexions, which are cells.
[00:38:15]  And you can set up your own nexion.
[00:38:17]  It's kind of like, I mean, from what I understand, from what I've, I have some friends that are really into researching ISIS and stuff.
[00:38:23]  And it's kind of similar where you can just sort of call yourself ISIS and your ISIS, but or al-Qaeda, as I understand.
[00:38:32]  I don't know.
[00:38:32]  I'm not going to say too much about that stuff.
[00:38:34]  But with this thing, it is definitely the case.
[00:38:36]  I mean, there are different experts, like there's like, what's it, like G-Tech or something?
[00:38:41]  Like, there's this, there's this whole extremism research company that does reports about 764.
[00:38:49]  And they've come out in the past two or three years.
[00:38:51]  And they don't know if, I mean, with 764, it doesn't seem like there's any leadership at all.
[00:38:57]  It's just basically different online communities that share.
[00:39:00]  And 764 comes from the postal code of, I think, original guy area code that's right in the US that was really into this thing of, you know, blackmailing kids and getting them to kill themselves or whatever and making money off it and so on.
[00:39:15]  It's interesting.
[00:39:16]  I should mention too that not sorry to interrupt, but there is a crossover here with kind of some of the stuff we were talking about for people who were listening to our Zort series with UG Nazi and kind of what's termed the community or the calm, which is these like kind of like online sort of hacker groups who oftentimes are like engaged in like really nihilistic, you know, just swatting whoever and fucking stealing shit from people, blackmailing people.
[00:39:45]  There's pretty heavy overlap now, especially between like, I mean, obviously now, especially because 764 is much newer, but like a lot of these are like kind of the same kind of people.
[00:39:55]  And I think you get a pretty good look into the kind of person who's into this with, and we talked about in the second episode, this guy Mir Islam, who is just like this guy who's in his room all the time, completely hateful, Also clearly has some kind of like mental disorders and just spends his time grooming people he meets on video game or like online video games and stalking and sending death threats and, you know, swatting and and hacking into people.
[00:40:22]  Yeah um, I think with with the calm uh, I know that there is like a section of that that is 764.
[00:40:32]  I'm sort of less.
[00:40:35]  The calm makes less sense to me than the 764, but there's definitely like serious overlap.
[00:40:40]  I mean, there was that thing as well where there was the because the calm, as I understand it's, more folk about hacking in general.
[00:40:47]  Yeah, and there was that thing with the Doge guy who was a calm guy.
[00:40:54]  I mean I'm sure you guys remember that and he was in the calm and then there was sort of people were arguing like, was he in 764?
[00:41:01]  I mean, as I understand, there was no evidence that he was in a 764.
[00:41:03]  I mean, if he was 764, that'd be pretty.
[00:41:05]  I feel like that'd be a pretty career ending, even even for Doge, Because I mean, you can sort of make the argument that the calm, you know, they're just hackers, and hackers could be cool as well.
[00:41:15]  And, you know, we could, they're useful because we need hackers to defend ourselves from other hackers and so on or whatever.
[00:41:21]  But yeah, with Sutter and 764, I can't actually really remember if he's explicitly supported 764.
[00:41:32]  I think there are definitely O9A people that have supported 764.
[00:41:39]  And I mean, more importantly, I guess 764 itself is very, very into O9A ideology.
[00:41:44]  And it's kind of the thing where it's like, it's not really a thing of organizations commanding each other, but it's just so like, you know, decentralized.
[00:41:53]  And the people like the 764 communities, they're super into Onane ideology.
[00:41:59]  And I mean, I guess at this point, we could also mention the sort of the idea of O9A ideology, which is that it's similar to sort of the classic right-wing militia type stuff, like siege, all this sort of thing.
[00:42:12]  And they're also into the siege thing.
[00:42:14]  They kind of overlap there.
[00:42:16]  But this idea of, you know, we need to have a racial holy war, Reijo War.
[00:42:21]  Yeah, Reijo Wah.
[00:42:22]  Reijo Wah, that's right.
[00:42:23]  And because, you know, reformism is at a deadlock or whatever.
[00:42:28]  We can't elect Hitler.
[00:42:29]  It's not going to happen.
[00:42:30]  And so we need to, you know, through different terrorist actions, we need to, you know, incite a race war.
[00:42:38]  And I think like, but I guess with them, it's not even that racial anymore, like with O9A and stuff.

=== Shock Tactics (06:28) ===

[00:42:44]  And so, because I think originally with, you know, the sort of 20th century American, you know, neo-Nazi militias, it was more like, you know, bombing some kind of, maybe bombing like a black church or something.
[00:42:59]  Or, or, or I think, I mean, because I guess like the whole thing with these right-wing, really extreme right-wing people is they get very like blackpilled about white people as well, because they start saying, well, look, white people are not rising up for the white revolution.
[00:43:13]  And we need to sort of shock them out of their laziness by also committing just general acts of terrorism that will cause people to lose faith in the government.
[00:43:23]  And then there's going to be, you know, civil war.
[00:43:25]  And then we can, and then as I recall, like Adam Waffen, who's this, another American contemporary, you know, O9A Sutter adjacent group, they, they believe that they can then create like a white ethno-state out of part of the USA.
[00:43:43]  And they have analogs with, you know, the Yugoslav wars, whatever, all kinds of things.
[00:43:47]  And, you know, I'm actually, it's coming back to me now.
[00:43:50]  I realize the reason I think I was looking into Sutter stuff is because we did an episode on infrastructure attacks and the links that some of those had to Adam Waffen and sort of these siege type organizations.
[00:44:04]  A little bit of background for those who don't remember Adam Waffen being pretty prominently in the news in like 2017, 2018.
[00:44:13]  They were like a neo-Nazi group, but it wasn't like Richard Spencer.
[00:44:16]  They thought Richard Spencer was like, they thought he was like a liberal cuck, which I guess he did become.
[00:44:22]  But like, they thought he was a liberal cuck back then.
[00:44:26]  They were like much more into like just literally doing like, yeah, exactly what you described me, terroristic violence to sort of shock people awake.
[00:44:37]  It's based around this guy, James Mason, who wrote this, I think, a series of books, maybe called Siege, but it's all collected into one big volume, which I have read a lot of, and it is very stupid.
[00:44:50]  But it's definitely, it's kind of a, I'm not going to say it's a far cry, but it's pretty different from like the American Nazi Party or like any of these like 60s, 70s organizations that were, that were much more like, you know, they had the uniforms and they'd try to like make, you know, contact the nation of Islam, all this kind of shit, like back Lincoln Rockwell kind of shit.
[00:45:11]  These guys are much more, yeah, kind of in the in the vein of, I guess, lone wolf bombings and school shootings and things like that.
[00:45:23]  And they would gather together in like these little nucleuses.
[00:45:26]  There was one, of course, called The Base, who's whose leader, I believe, actually was a former, what is he, like a PMC guy, maybe like a State Department.
[00:45:35]  CIA or State Department?
[00:45:36]  He like went with the State Department.
[00:45:37]  It was crazy.
[00:45:38]  But now lives in, yeah, now he was like a, he was a contractor.
[00:45:40]  That's what it was.
[00:45:41]  Now lives in Russia.
[00:45:43]  But there was like a lot of these kind of groups floating around and they got pretty prominent online through these sort of like edits that they would do.
[00:45:52]  A lot of those like sort of, I guess, vaporwave edits with like the black sun circling around.
[00:45:58]  Fan cams.
[00:45:59]  Yeah, fan cams that they would do actually kind of come from this kind of Nazi guy.
[00:46:05]  Funnily enough, one of, remember that guy who got fired from the Ron DeSantis campaign for doing a Ron DeSantis vaporwave black sun Nazi super cut fan cam.
[00:46:16]  That was amazing.
[00:46:17]  But, you know, it's interesting to see how this stuff evolves because, you know, you mentioned that one of the guys who got picked up for this stuff was Mexican.
[00:46:26]  Well, actually, a lot of the guys who've been kind of getting picked up for this stuff have been BIPOC, including, I think, maybe an Indian guy somewhere in America.
[00:46:38]  And I think that just goes to show that, like, actually, a lot of the Nazi stuff, this is some weird, I guess it's just the times we're living in.
[00:46:46]  You know, there's sort of like a joke about, you know, like a Nick Fuentes fans kind of all being just like Mexican teenagers.
[00:46:55]  But I really do think that like Nazism in America is about as multiculturalism as a political movement as one can get now, because a lot of people are just sort of in these weird online isolated communities or they're isolated in their real life and they're on these online communities and these Discord groups.
[00:47:12]  And you kind of inhabit this role of like, maybe it's very masculine.
[00:47:16]  I don't know what it is.
[00:47:18]  But it's and it's also very nihilistic.
[00:47:21]  And so I think actually like Solomon, the black teenager who shot up his school, I read his manifesto.
[00:47:28]  It was called the N-word Cell.
[00:47:29]  Well, I didn't use N-word, but we did use the N-word, but N-word Cell Manifesto.
[00:47:34]  And I read through it.
[00:47:35]  It's pretty schizophrenic.
[00:47:36]  But like, there's a lot of sort of like signals from these kind of online Nazi communities that are incorporated into this.
[00:47:42]  And so it's almost like we're getting this stuff, which is siege, which is kind of like a Xerox of like the order stuff from like 1970s, 1980s.
[00:47:51]  And then this new thing, like 764, kind of the 09A stuff is almost like a Xerox of the siege Adam Waffen stuff.
[00:48:00]  Because Adam Waffen, very famously, one of their big blow-ups was four of them lived in this house in Florida.
[00:48:05]  One of them converted to an extreme form of Islam and declared he was an ISIS and then killed his roommates for not respecting his newfound religious beliefs.
[00:48:16]  And then the roommate who wasn't home got arrested in a smoke shop because when the police raided the home, they found some radioactive material or something.
[00:48:25]  Anyways, that's all to say.
[00:48:27]  Things are getting very strange now.
[00:48:29]  And I also want to, I'm so sorry.
[00:48:32]  I also wanted to apologize that Liz, you're right.
[00:48:34]  I mean, Sutter did promote at 764.
[00:48:38]  I just found like it was in the wired articles on it and stuff that he was explicitly promoting it.
[00:48:43]  I didn't want to defame Sutter.
[00:48:45]  You know, I would not want to be doing anything that's not stated in reputable publications.
[00:48:51]  But yeah.
[00:48:52]  Well, I want to ask about Sutter because Sutter is, he's kind of a, he's kind of what you might call an unk figure, an old head in the, uh, in the online Nazi community and in the real life Nazi community.
[00:49:05]  And I, you know, something that has unfortunately torn this community apart.
[00:49:11]  Sorry, this is hard for me.

=== Euromaidan: A Complex Coalition (16:13) ===

[00:49:12]  Something that's torn this community apart is the war in Russia and Ukraine.
[00:49:18]  Because it's, we said no more brother wars.
[00:49:22]  And then guess what they did?
[00:49:24]  Zog made Putin and Zoglensky do a brother war.
[00:49:29]  And there has been sort of like this weird, the international Nazi community has reacted, I would say, both well and poorly to this war.
[00:49:39]  Because on the one hand, you have our Aryan goats, well, maybe Slavic, but, you know, Aryan Slavic goats in Azov.
[00:49:46]  And then you have Putin, who I would say like some of the more moderate Nazis would support.
[00:49:55]  And we got our guys on both sides here.
[00:49:59]  And I think it's been tough.
[00:50:01]  Sutter, though, seems like he has made his choice.
[00:50:05]  Yeah.
[00:50:06]  I mean, Sutter is definitely team Ukraine.
[00:50:11]  And I mean, this is because, I mean, he has institutional sort of ties with, I mean, with the Ukrainian Azov movement.
[00:50:18]  And I mean, there was one, for instance, there was a conference that the Azov movement conducted in Ukraine 2018.
[00:50:28]  The Pact of, I mean, I might be confusing the conferences here, but anyway, there was definitely the 2018 conference.
[00:50:33]  It's on YouTube.
[00:50:34]  You can see it.
[00:50:34]  I have in my articles a link to it where Sutter came with Adam Watham guys as well.
[00:50:41]  And it was quite a small conference of just these right-wing, right-wing is kind of an understatement, I think, for these guys, but like the friends of Azov.
[00:50:49]  And he came there.
[00:50:52]  So he definitely, yeah, he's definitely tied with them.
[00:50:56]  In terms of like the right-wing split, I guess it is also, I mean, relevant.
[00:51:01]  Because I think right now we'll be transitioning into the Russia-Ukraine aspect of it.
[00:51:06]  So yeah, I mean, like, in terms of the neo-Nazi movement in the post-Soviet world, excluding Germany, which was not actually a Soviet state, to be clear.
[00:51:18]  Eastern Eastern Bloc.
[00:51:19]  Eastern Bloc.
[00:51:20]  But I guess I'm not so sure about the rest of the Eastern Bloc.
[00:51:23]  I think they probably had lots of, you know, Hungary and Poland.
[00:51:27]  They had plenty of skinhead and so on.
[00:51:29]  I mean, I know less about those countries.
[00:51:31]  But in terms of the Soviet Union, you know, like Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, all these things, you know, Kazakhstan, whatever.
[00:51:37]  It was the neo-Nazi movement became really big in Russia in the late 90s and 2000s.
[00:51:42]  And the reason why it was so big there was because, I mean, largely because of the huge labor migration to Russia, where you had a lot of mainly like Muslim people from the Caucasus region and also like the Central Asian republics working in Russia.
[00:52:05]  Many of them had been there before already, but many more came as well in the 90s.
[00:52:10]  And then this was also obviously a period of incredible economic and miseration of all the citizens of the Soviet Union.
[00:52:19]  But I mean, there weren't the Ukraine wasn't where lots of the labor migrants were going.
[00:52:26]  There were also a fair few in Ukraine and there still are, but much less so than Russia.
[00:52:33]  And then you had this very large, I mean, it was probably like the most neo-Nazis in the world were probably in Russia in the 2000s.
[00:52:44]  There's different estimates how many there were, you know, in in sort of Neo-nazi skinhead organizations, definitely in the tens of thousands, you know.
[00:52:52]  I I have, I know someone that used to sort of be in this movement and he sort of estimated that like a hundred thousand in the 2000s and they were, and there's some.
[00:53:00]  There's some overlap too with uh, with like hooligans and like soccer.
[00:53:05]  Yeah no it's it's, it's very, very much like a football hooligan thing.
[00:53:08]  I mean uh, the the most um, sort of aggressive and active of them.
[00:53:13]  They're also football hooligans from different and basically all of the different uh like hooligan hooligan groups in Russia were, like you know, hardcore Neo-nazis, and the same in Ukraine is today the case.
[00:53:24]  There was one that was kind of like an anti-fascist one uh, but then it also became fairly quite right wing and sort of didn't became, became really irrelevant as well.
[00:53:32]  But uh, so it's, it's a little bit different.
[00:53:34]  I think in other countries there there's more of a stronger like Antifa football hooligan scene uh in in Russia and Ukraine also was less so an Antifa scene did emerge uh, in response to the, the Nazi scene in the 2000s but um, it is worth making like, just like noting that this was very, very murderous.
[00:53:53]  Like these people were killing sort of hundreds of um like uh, you know, Muslim labor migrants, but not only Muslim but mainly Muslim in the 2000s, and there's different estimates how many, but definitely like hundreds uh, at certain points and within, like you know, in one year it could be uh, so very, very murderous.
[00:54:12]  Um, you know, it's interesting looking at the sort of causes for it.
[00:54:16]  You know, there was a lot of anti-migrant sentiment in society in general.
[00:54:19]  There are also different like economic things, like different criminal uh, but also like small business competing over these markets.
[00:54:26]  Uh yeah, I mean, it's interesting because, like you know, these the football hooligans in general in certain countries can, and a lot of countries can like serve as muscle for either criminal or economic criminal kind of groups.
[00:54:41]  And, as i'm sure most listeners of this show will know, you know the 90s in Russia were tough, things were tough over there um, and the 2000s and the 2000s yeah um, and and so yeah, there's this.
[00:54:58]  It's kind of overlap with organized crime as well exactly, and I mean and in, and then in Ukraine and then I guess.
[00:55:03]  So the reason I bring this up with the whole Russia thing is because then I mean in the 2000s, you have this more as well, like, you know, ideological, post-Soviet, right-wing, neo-Nazi scene.
[00:55:16]  But at this point, there was really like, there was no difference between the Russian and the Ukrainian scene.
[00:55:21]  They were very, very like closely, like they were very, very close friends.
[00:55:25]  And then what would, you know, there's kind of famous, there were conferences in the 2000s, even really as late as 2011, 2012 or something, where there were conferences with Dugin, who is today, you know, he's like this right-wing Russian philosopher and so on, who is today obviously a very strong supporter of the Russian government.
[00:55:43]  And his daughter was killed by a Ukrainian covert explosion operation, whatever.
[00:55:51]  But then back in the 2000s, he was very close with these Ukrainian neo-Nazis who are now the Azov Italian.
[00:56:00]  I mean, Dugin as well had at various sort of points in which he was very sort of praising of different historical neo-Nazis and so on.
[00:56:09]  But I mean, they had a lot of overlap in terms of, I guess, just right-wing mysticism, all that sort of thing, and generally pan-Slavism as well, and this idea of the, you know, obviously the white Slavs against the non-whites and so on.
[00:56:28]  But what then started happening was that, I mean, the peak of the right-wing violence in Russia was like in the 2007, 2008.
[00:56:40]  And then Russian law enforcement did start cracking down on it because it was getting very much out of hand, you know, in terms of just, you know, killing people and so on, right?
[00:56:48]  And they're doing all kinds of crazy things, like uploading decapitation videos to online communities.
[00:56:54]  One guy who was most likely involved in this very famous decapitation video, he then came to Ukraine and he's a prominent figure in the Azov movement now.
[00:57:03]  His name is Sebge Karotki, or Botsman, Boatsway and whatever.
[00:57:09]  And he was kind of involved in this very famous decapitation video of these two Muslim migrants in 2006 or so.
[00:57:19]  But what happened is they began being cracked down on by the Russian government.
[00:57:26]  There was also sort of an attempt to sort of integrate them, you know, obviously, like in Russia, like in kind of most countries, the government tries to sort of channel opposition and opposition groups and to sort of use them in its own ways.
[00:57:42]  And there were sort of attempts to sort of mainstream some of these figures.
[00:57:44]  One of them was this very famous person, Maxim Martinkievich, Tesak, very, very popular.
[00:57:52]  He was a hardcore neo-Nazi who killed people, right?
[00:57:55]  Like, but he also became very popular.
[00:57:57]  And he's still very popular, like in the sort of Russian, Ukrainian, like among the youth, because he was kind of considered to be funny, lots of memes about him.
[00:58:05]  But he got imprisoned and he was actually, he died in jail not long ago, actually, a few years ago, two years ago, after the start of the war, Russia-Ukraine war.
[00:58:14]  And then all the Azov guys, they were very sad.
[00:58:17]  They made lots of posts about him.
[00:58:20]  This is our fighter against the regime.
[00:58:21]  But then, because basically, so the neo-Nazis, they have this in the post-Soviet world, they really dislike Putin.
[00:58:29]  They think that Putin is like a global homo, zog, multinational, because in Russia, I mean, Putin, you know, and the Russian government, I mean, this is not a particularly new thing for Putin.
[00:58:42]  I mean, this was kind of in a sense, the Russian Empire had this as well.
[00:58:45]  Obviously, the Soviet Union had this very much so, but like, very much not about, you know, kind of emphasizing the multinational nature of the state.
[00:58:55]  And, you know, they have autonomous regions and, you know, they mean like Chechnya, right?
[00:58:59]  Is this kind of a state within itself?
[00:59:02]  And this is a top, this is something that like right-wing people really, really hate.
[00:59:09]  They don't even, I mean, they don't want there to be any respect, obviously, towards like, you know, non-bolly detailed traditions.
[00:59:18]  But also, they just don't want them to come to Moscow or whatever.
[00:59:22]  And then, I mean, there's also an interesting overlap between like Russian liberals as well, who they really hate sort of the fact that Chechnya is governed by Khadyrov in a very sort of, well, I think undeniably fairly brutal manner.
[00:59:35]  And they think it's crazy, you know, because we have this barbaric Eastern dictatorship within our country and so on.
[00:59:41]  We shouldn't have this.
[00:59:43]  There's kind of this point of unity between the sort of neo-Nazis and the liberals, which we can talk about a bit later.
[00:59:48]  It's quite relevant in this context, the Russia-Ukraine war.
[00:59:52]  But so they were leaving 2008, pressure by the Russian government.
[00:59:57]  But then a really big turning point was 2014 when in Ukraine there was this sort of large protest movement which led to the removal of the government, the Euromaidan events.
[01:00:12]  And in this, a very large role was played by radical nationalist groups, some of which who had actually just come from Russia.
[01:00:21]  Others were Ukrainian and grown up in Ukraine.
[01:00:25]  Most of them grew up in Ukraine.
[01:00:28]  But there was quite an important contingent of these very radical Russian neo-Nazis who took part in these.
[01:00:35]  And then they got rid of the government and a new government came to power that was much more pro-Western and also had this representation from these nationalist groups.
[01:00:46]  And then in 2014, the Azov movement emerged.
[01:00:51]  Totally worth going into the whole details of how it emerged.
[01:00:55]  But what then, obviously, the Russian government and the Ukrainian government became very antagonistic.
[01:01:00]  And at that, and since There were these right-wing forces that were supporting the new Ukrainian government.
[01:01:09]  The Russian government began to really crack down even more on neo-Nazis in Russia.
[01:01:13]  And then lots of them came more to Ukraine to escape that.
[01:01:17]  But it had been happening before that already, because in Ukraine, it was just a much, Ukraine has always, at least particularly before 2014, was a much freer place than Russia, less laws.
[01:01:30]  So yeah, I guess that's the context.
[01:01:33]  I think Euromaidan kind of breaks a lot of people's brains because of that mix of, like, as that's going on, there is that weird kind of coalition and mix of people of like liberals and anarchists and Nazis and fascists that are all kind of coming together in this mix.
[01:01:52]  And it doesn't fit a lot of the like cookie-cutter ways that some people in the U.S. think about events and that kind of what you were saying.
[01:02:01]  And I think maybe it'd be good to talk about a little bit more this weird sort of alliance or not alliance, but like common cause in both Russia and Ukraine that a lot of liberals and hardcore right-wing factions find because of the different sort of or more site-specific, we'll say, like historical developments there.
[01:02:24]  Yeah, I mean, it is like an alliance and that they very much, I mean, especially the liberals, I think the liberals are a lot more, they're a lot more positive towards the right-wing people than maybe the right-wing are towards the liberals.
[01:02:38]  Because the Ukrainian liberals, they're very angry.
[01:02:44]  I mean, like, because the fact of the matter is, right?
[01:02:47]  So the Azov movement, we can talk about why it kind of emerged.
[01:02:50]  It emerged in 2014 right after the victory of the Euromaidan movement, in which the people that would then become the Azov movement, quite very small at that point, different extreme right-wing nationalist groups, they played a major role in the Euromaidan protests.
[01:03:06]  And then after the Euromaidan protests, there were counter-protests, the anti-Maidan in the east and southern part of Ukraine, and that were more open towards, some of them were like explicitly pro-Russian, some of them were more just sort of open towards continued neutrality towards Russia, as had been the case before.
[01:03:26]  But then the right-wing organizations, they joined together to attack these anti-Maidan protests, some of whom had also taken control of different state buildings.
[01:03:43]  And yeah, quite a complex series of events, but essentially they were mobilized to sort of crush sort of what they saw as the counter-revolution.
[01:03:53]  And it is also interesting, noted that they were sort of under the aegis of this figure, Arsene Avakov, who was this Armenian oligarch, the governor of the Kharkiv region in the eastern Ukraine.
[01:04:10]  And he had been a businessman and a politician in 2000s, Ukraine.
[01:04:14]  And this is kind of documented by the Bellingcat, Michael Colbert, in his book about Azov.
[01:04:20]  He had used what would in future become Azov at that point was called Patriot of Ukraine, very small organization, in different business disputes that he had, where they would attack his business rivals.
[01:04:31]  They would also attack the Vietnamese market and attack them for being migrants.
[01:04:35]  But in fact, it was kind of like a business rivalry and so on.
[01:04:41]  And this is also an important thing that it's kind of funny.
[01:04:45]  In Ukraine, there's this perception of Ukrainian nationalism as being very much like a Western Ukrainian thing.
[01:04:52]  And there's a historical sense in which that is true.
[01:04:54]  But then if you look at Azov, it's basically overwhelmingly Eastern Ukraine, generally Russian speaking.
[01:05:00]  And the reason for that is because in Ukraine, it's like these eastern cities are where you have industrial objects, big factories and so on.
[01:05:11]  And that's where you had all the gangland violence really in the 90s and the 2000s and to the present day, really, because you have competition over different industrial assets.
[01:05:21]  And Western Ukraine is very, very poor.
[01:05:23]  It's very rural.
[01:05:24]  There's not very much to compete over.

=== Ukrainian Nationalism Reimagined (15:13) ===

[01:05:25]  So anyway, and then you had these muscle groups essentially to back you up.
[01:05:29]  It wasn't just like right-wing.
[01:05:31]  In fact, really right-wing nationalists were not the main muscle groups you use as like a 90s, 2000 oligarch.
[01:05:36]  It was more just different criminal groups, your own sort of private military companies and so on.
[01:05:41]  But they were used to an extent, at least, and Kharkiv is definitely a proof of that.
[01:05:45]  But it really became much, it really like dramatically, dramatically increased in scope and size after 2014.
[01:05:54]  And with the rise of the Azov.
[01:05:57]  And then what happened with the Azov movement was the Ukrainian army at that point was not really ready to fight against, well, what were its own citizens at that point in eastern Ukraine?
[01:06:09]  And whereas Azov was much more willing to sort of shoot and kill other people.
[01:06:13]  Yeah, you'd be willing to actually shell Givi.
[01:06:16]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:06:17]  Well, and also, and also, because I mean, at the beginning, a lot of it was really like small skirmishes in Kharkiv and Mariupol and so on, where they were looking for anti-Maidan, what they considered like pro-Russian activists and killing them or capturing them and working in close cooperation with the secret services, the SPU, the secret services of Ukraine.
[01:06:41]  So that was really a big thing.
[01:06:43]  And then obviously there was the military operations.
[01:06:46]  And Azov was very, I mean, still is, I mean, it constantly growing, but it's very much like, it presents itself as having an ideology and as being actually committed to like the Ukrainian state, whereas all the other institutions, they're totally corrupt and they're totally, you know, like Soviet or Russian-infested and they have no ideology, whatever.
[01:07:07]  And so it's this very kind of compelling idea of, you know. a real national an idea and so on.
[01:07:14]  But in terms of liberals, I mean, they very much like, I mean, they have to support them because without Azov and so on, there isn't really an army.
[01:07:23]  I mean, right now, if you like in the discourse around the Ukraine war, they're always held up as being, you know, by the Western media and by, you know, Ukrainian liberals being like, you know, the most militarily advanced unit in the Ukrainian army and so on.
[01:07:38]  And as, you know, as this great example for the rest of the army to follow in terms of I would say that it's probably true.
[01:07:49]  I mean, I don't think that they have conscripts.
[01:07:53]  And certainly from a lot of the propaganda they do, they seem to be both A, better equipped, because I think they have these sort of networks of supply that are not available necessarily to other frontline units, but just more cohesive as a whole.
[01:08:07]  I think one of the main problems that we see with the Ukrainian military and complaints from members of the Ukrainian military is A, undertrained troops, under-equipped troops, and then C, no communication or training.
[01:08:19]  I mean, no communication or training on communication.
[01:08:23]  Whereas Azov like really has eliminated a lot of these problems and sort of functions as this like, I guess, model unit for the rest of the military.
[01:08:37]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:08:38]  And I mean, they've recently, because I mean, like, I mean, this is kind of a whole nother tangent, but there's this whole in the Ukrainian sort of military blog sphere, media sphere,
[01:08:53]  there's this whole kind of discourse war over the past, especially over the past few years since the full-scale war with Russia, of this struggle between like the young patriotic commanders who are like efficient and they don't want to risk and they don't throw away their subordinates' lives for nothing.
[01:09:10]  And then opposed to them, the sort of the old, corrupt Soviet generals who were trained in the Soviet Union or trained in Russia, and they just throw away people like it doesn't matter and just to get like promotions and so on.
[01:09:21]  And then obviously Azov is the greatest example of the young patriotic commanders.
[01:09:27]  And they're constantly interviewed by these often USAID-funded pro-Western liberal publications, which is like the biggest publications of Ukraine, like Kraken's the Pravda and whatever, all these different things.
[01:09:38]  And they're always held up as being this example of how the army should reform.
[01:09:42]  And they are actually playing a major role in the form of the army, where now the army is moving towards a core system, towards like a NATO-based core system.
[01:09:50]  And the Azov Azov has now become one of the first of these cores.
[01:09:58]  And that's also held up as this way in which the army is adopting its methods.
[01:10:04]  And there are so many more and more interviews, especially the past few months, really, where the leader of Azov, Andrei Belyetsky, he constantly talks about how, you know, if I was in charge of the entire army, how I would do this and so on.
[01:10:17]  And if you just give me this amount of money, I think it's like 2 billion US dollars, I could have the entire front along Azov lines.
[01:10:23]  And it has been constantly, hugely increasing.
[01:10:26]  And if you just look at any Ukrainian military blogger, they all are just, they just think Azov is the best thing ever.
[01:10:33]  I mean, if I was in charge of the Ukrainian military, what I would do is I would do a tight breakthrough along a weaker section of the Russian lines and exploit that breakthrough with armored companies or things like that, maybe just even buildings that we would erect really quickly.
[01:10:51]  And then I would go to Moscow and besiege Moscow and force a surrender.
[01:10:59]  But you know what?
[01:11:00]  They're not consulting me, are they?
[01:11:02]  I mean, funnily enough, Azov, these guys, they actually often propose, like right now, they've really been pushing for like a sort of a, like they're quite worried about continuing a war forever because it could lead to sort of the collapse of the Ukrainian army.
[01:11:15]  And lots of them are sort of saying we need to sort of focus.
[01:11:18]  I mean, they are saying the leader of Belyetski and so on is saying we need to focus on the defense and we can't just keep on, you know, we can't have these unrealistic goals, which is kind of a criticism of Zelensky in a sense, because Zelensky is kind of often really, well, has been until recently saying we need to keep on pushing for the 1991 borders and so on.
[01:11:38]  But anyway, that's Azov, this very important movement.
[01:11:42]  I mean, I guess we could maybe talk a little bit about going back to the obviously much more important phenomenon of Nikhil Kasov and so on.
[01:11:52]  Yeah, well, I think we should talk about another unit that has sort of sprung up kind of under the aegis of Ukrainian military intelligence.
[01:12:04]  Yeah.
[01:12:04]  Well, out of Azov's, out of Azov, it's explicitly.
[01:12:07]  Out of Azov.
[01:12:08]  Yeah.
[01:12:08]  But like there's this whole, I mean, and this is, this has been on the news a lot lately, but this has been in the news a lot lately of, and over the past couple of years, of these sort of deep strikes within Russian territory, right?
[01:12:19]  Like there was just that kind of, I got to say, pretty impressive operation with the drones in the trucks they smuggled into Russia, which, I mean, it's kind of, it's almost like out of a movie, you know, I hate to sound like one of these guys.
[01:12:34]  It's almost like out of a movie, but it really is.
[01:12:36]  Like the Ukrainians seemingly smuggled a bunch of small drones into Russia using trucks with truck drivers who might not have even known what they were transporting.
[01:12:47]  They were hidden in the roofs.
[01:12:48]  The roofs came off and the drones attacked air bases and I think actually attacked nuclear bombers.
[01:12:57]  I mean, not obviously loaded with nuclear weapons.
[01:12:59]  But, you know, it's a, this has been, there's been a series of these sort of assassinations and attacks on Russian territory that have kind of all been pointing to the only sort of part of the Ukrainian military combine or whatever that has been getting really favorable press because obviously the Western media supports the Ukrainian army in many ways,
[01:13:29]  but it's kind of hard to overlook a lot of the very notable failures operationally in the past few years.
[01:13:35]  The Western media does a pretty good job of overlooking.
[01:13:37]  Yeah, I know.
[01:13:38]  But like there's every six months there's like a new like 8,000 word New York Times thing to be like problems in the Ukrainian army.
[01:13:45]  And like, you know, the casualties do seem to be mounting.
[01:13:49]  But I think the thing that has sort of been like the shining star of Ukrainians' military command has been their intelligence and assassinations kind of commando operations that they've been engaged upon.
[01:14:05]  And that is kind of what sort of circles us back a little bit to Joshua Sutter and to 764 and to 09A, because this is not exactly, well, there's a linkage here.
[01:14:20]  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[01:14:22]  Yeah, I will say also with the recent drone operations, it was also, I mean, it was actually confirmed by Zelensky, I think, like today, that the truck drivers were not aware of what they were carrying, which is interesting.
[01:14:35]  You're going to be in trouble, fellas.
[01:14:37]  You're going to be in trouble.
[01:14:38]  Well, I mean, this is also what happened with the Ukrainian Secret Services bombing of the Crimean bridge back in 2022, where it was a truck bomb that killed the truck driver as well.
[01:14:52]  And this was just a random truck driver.
[01:14:54]  And I've seen people also mention how this was apparently a tactic that was used by in the Irish Civil War by MI6, essentially.
[01:15:04]  I think also people have, I think, rightly kind of compared this next wave of, I don't know, attacks to the Israeli pager attack and the way that unknown components of just like civil and social infrastructure get weaponized sort of instantaneously as it's a sort of like new wave of warfare that's kind of coming out of this.
[01:15:30]  I mean, it's also often compared, especially in Russia, to like with the Chechen wars, where originally it was like, you know, a fairly conventional war, obviously with different guerrilla elements and so on.
[01:15:42]  But then once the Chechen side really began losing a great more, you know, there wasn't really much of a Chechen army left.
[01:15:51]  There were a lot more terrorist attacks and so on.
[01:15:54]  And that continued for a very long time after Russia was in full control of the territory of Chechnya.
[01:16:02]  But with the Ukrainian intelligence services, there is this funny tension in the New York Times articles where they'll, on the one hand, they'll go in really extreme detail about how the CIA and the MI6 and other different American intelligence services trained and created these structures, really very explicitly.
[01:16:29]  These Ukrainian military intelligence, when Ukrainian military intelligence, which is the HUR, the H-U-R or the G-UR, you can see it's spelled in terms as well.
[01:16:38]  And the main intelligence directorate, and also the Ukrainian security services of Ukraine, which is often called SBU, because that's the Ukrainian abbreviation.
[01:16:50]  And so, I mean, you know, there are a few, but so on the one hand, they'll be very clear about how we created these organizations.
[01:16:57]  We trained them, and thanks to our wonderful training, they can do these wonderful missions and so on.
[01:17:01]  But on the other hand, they also say, but of course, we were always very, very clear to them that you cannot do bad things inside of Russia.
[01:17:07]  You know, they always say this, where you can only do things if it's inside of territory of Ukraine that's being occupied by Russia, but nothing else, because we obviously don't want Russia to be angry at us, and we are only helping Ukraine in this particular aspect of its war and so on.
[01:17:25]  But obviously, that's not particularly believable.
[01:17:27]  And I think, I mean, they'll often say that the operations inside of Russia that the Ukrainian different intelligence services claim for themselves that they have committed and they take responsibility, they'll say that this was done without our consent.
[01:17:45]  But I mean, that's always very, I mean, okay, which guy's winking and nodding.
[01:17:52]  You know, it just takes a little.
[01:17:53]  What do you mean?
[01:17:55]  I don't know.
[01:17:55]  That's always the message that comes out.
[01:17:57]  And you hear it all the time over here.
[01:17:58]  We had no idea.
[01:18:00]  We didn't say anything.
[01:18:01]  And it's all diplomatic, you know, smokescreen for what's actually hardcore reported on.
[01:18:09]  We didn't know they'd blow up Nord Stream 2.
[01:18:12]  We're just, you know, it took years and probably a Trump presidency, but finally a lot of information to hit US press about like actual US involvement and in a on us in a structural way, right?
[01:18:28]  actually kind of being there.
[01:18:30]  I mean I can also because I mean I think we can now move on to.
[01:18:34]  I mean, as I said, there were two main.
[01:18:35]  There were two main intelligence services in Ukraine.
[01:18:37]  There's the SPU and the GUR.
[01:18:40]  Both are very, very like, cooperate with Ukrainian or and also formerly Russian or currently Russian, however you want to call them Neo-Nazis and there's plenty of interviews with the Neo-Nazis themselves where they're very proud of their help that they give to the SPU in tracking down what they call to be like Pro-Russian agitators.
[01:19:00]  There's several interviews, for instance, with one well-known Ukrainian neo-Nazi called Yevgen Karais of the C-14 organization.
[01:19:11]  He boasts of the help he gives to the SBU in tracking down.
[01:19:15]  This was before 2022 as well.
[01:19:16]  This was interviews in 2018, 19, where tracking down pro-Russian.
[01:19:21]  So it's often framed in terms of we're cooperating because we're fighting against the pro-Russian elements in Ukrainian society.
[01:19:28]  Because obviously, I mean, in Ukraine, it's very much quite a divisive issue, many of these questions.
[01:19:34]  But anyway, but they cooperate with the SPU, that's a big thing.
[01:19:38]  But also, I mean, the SBU is a much older thing.
[01:19:41]  It's essentially just the, well, it is not, it is the Ukrainian KGB.
[01:19:46]  I mean, it was created from the structure of the Ukrainian KGB.
[01:19:49]  They renamed it to give it the name of the SBU, which was the name that the Nazi collaborationist organization of Ukrainian nationalists that in the 1940s, 1930s, that collaborated with Nazi Germany and so on, took participation in the sort of Holocaust and the killing of Poles and so on.
[01:20:09]  They had an SBU in the 30s and the 40s, the security service of Ukraine.
[01:20:14]  And then in the 90s, in newly independent Ukraine, they took this name.
[01:20:19]  And then the SPU was also a sort of a there are lots of different factions in the SPU.
[01:20:24]  There's like, you know, pro-Russian factions and just generally like, and also obviously pro-Western factions.
[01:20:30]  And just a lot of different weird kind of Klan struggles over corruption, rent, and so on.
[01:20:35]  And similar FSB as well in the 1990s, particularly.

=== Rumors Surrounding Budanov (16:55) ===

[01:20:39]  But that was a big thing.
[01:20:43]  But then the US, they really came in and they started sponsoring the creation of this new unit in the SPU.
[01:20:52]  But that was more kind of really tightly created by the Americans and without this possibility of leaks to the Russians, but still with some leaks, I'm sure.
[01:21:02]  But then what the Americans really focused on was the GUR, the main intelligence directorate.
[01:21:08]  And then there was this particular figure, Kadilo Budanov, who became the, so as I understand, so he was a, he's described, this is a, I think, a Washington Post article That's about that was published a few years ago after 20, I think, in 2022, 2023.
[01:21:28]  And it describes him as being like a rising star in unit seven, what was it, unit 2245, which I believe was in the was in the uh uh no, it's in the in the GUR, that's right.
[01:21:42]  But uh, Budanov, he actually, the uh, the CIA, this is in the Washington Post article, the CIA trained him and also took the extraordinary step of sending him for rehabilitation after an injury he received in the war in Ukraine.
[01:21:54]  This was this was 2015 or 16 or so.
[01:21:57]  Uh, and they sent him for rehabilitation to a Walter Reed National Military Center in Maryland.
[01:22:02]  Wow.
[01:22:03]  Um, and um, and then he came Biden gets his colonoscopies.
[01:22:07]  Oh, there you go, let's go.
[01:22:09]  Um, but uh, also, I mean, there are lots of rumors about Budanov himself.
[01:22:13]  Not really rumors, because I mean, I think it's fairly because Budanov, there are rumors essentially that he was in the right-wing football hooligan scene in his youth.
[01:22:20]  I don't really think it's a rumor because I mean, he is the number one patron of Ukrainian neo-Nazis today, and they all love him.
[01:22:27]  And all of there was there were recent sort of rumors over the past year or so, there's been rumors that maybe the government might try to sort of demote Budanov, he has too much influence.
[01:22:35]  And then, when these rumors appeared, the sort of there was all of the Ukrainian neo-Nazi groups, they all said, No, don't do this.
[01:22:42]  In particular, the Football Hooligan Association put out a whole statement of like Budanov's the best guy ever and so on.
[01:22:49]  Um, and um, I also want to read out some, this is, I don't know, this is uh from about Nord Stream because you you mentioned this.
[01:22:59]  Um, so I mean, like for a little bit of context, so it's now in the in the GUR where you have like a wide range of units, they're very explicitly neo-Nazi, and we'll talk about one in a second.
[01:23:11]  But they also, there's also a rap group called the Nord Nord Division, uh, like a rap as in this, the they do freestyle, freestyle things, and you can look them up, they're pretty big, they have like hundreds of thousands of views, and so they're very they're like a Ukrainian um military uh musical group with like men, and they're all like Azov guys and so on.
[01:23:33]  Um, but they have songs I've taken, I've taken the time to translate the lyrics as well, uh, sort of labor of love.
[01:23:40]  And I might, I have to sort of read out this is from their kind of one of the most popular freestyles on YouTube, which has like 20-minute freestyle, and I have to read out the translated English subtitles.
[01:23:52]  So, absolutely, why are we so bold?
[01:23:54]  Kirillo Budanov supervises us, he gives us assignments about what and about whom.
[01:24:00]  If he says not to release the track, we don't release it.
[01:24:03]  We're GUR members, damn it.
[01:24:05]  We were blasting in Bakhmut.
[01:24:06]  We fucked Kadyrov.
[01:24:08]  Dr. Mengele, this is still like concentration camp.
[01:24:12]  Yes, I've seen the future, and we didn't lose there.
[01:24:14]  Nord Division is like blowing up the Kursk submarine.
[01:24:18]  Historical note: a lot of Russians died there.
[01:24:21]  All of Ukraine, also one note, this is mainly wrapped in Russian as well, like in the Russian language, because most like of these guys are actually from Russia.
[01:24:29]  At least a lot of them are.
[01:24:30]  Or the Ukrainians who are Russian-speaking.
[01:24:33]  Anyway, continuing.
[01:24:34]  All of Ukraine's counterintelligence says that we are ought.
[01:24:37]  Before interviews, Budanov listens to our tracks in Russian.
[01:24:41]  Nord division is like the terrorist attack in the Russian metro, where women and children died.
[01:24:46]  And now I feel warmth in my soul.
[01:24:48]  Nord Stream exploded.
[01:24:49]  For that, we thank the Gur and the SBU.
[01:24:52]  Now I bring news, a very sad one for you, my friend.
[01:24:54]  The war won't end because it's not beneficial to anyone.
[01:24:57]  2024, a new war and a new year.
[01:25:00]  You bastards will pay in blood.
[01:25:02]  Enemies of common sense and the white race.
[01:25:04]  A white key is on my shoulder.
[01:25:06]  This is a neo-Nazi symbol.
[01:25:08]  Stand when the lieutenant speaks to you.
[01:25:10]  Lie on the floor when the Russian Volunteer Corps comes in.
[01:25:13]  The Russian Volunteer Corps is going to be the main topic of, I think, the next hour or so of what we're going to talk about.
[01:25:19]  And this is a unit in Budanovskur.
[01:25:22]  So lie on the floor when the Russian Volunteer Corps comes in.
[01:25:25]  A sighile to everyone and goodbye.
[01:25:27]  We want to reclaim our native land.
[01:25:29]  The gas van is coming.
[01:25:31]  Climb in.
[01:25:32]  Now we're going to clean the streets in Moscow.
[01:25:34]  We will leave our mark in the dark where the light of the Holy Rus will crush all of you now.
[01:25:38]  Anyway, wow.
[01:25:41]  That's a classic rap song.
[01:25:44]  It is, you know, I don't mean I love everybody in the world, but I got to tell you, when Europeans, and I'm including, you know, Ukrainians listening to this, I'm including you in this.
[01:25:57]  When Europeans rap, it gets into a territory that I'm not exactly comfortable in.
[01:26:05]  So he mentions in these beautiful lyrics a Russian volunteer unit.
[01:26:12]  And he mentions lying on the ground when they come in.
[01:26:15]  Possibly some sort of military term for lovemaking.
[01:26:21]  I'm not sure.
[01:26:24]  These guys were in the news a bunch for kind of a couple brief videos they did more than anything.
[01:26:34]  And they are sort of what we've been kind of leading up to with this talk of O9A and GUR and kind of connecting all of these things.
[01:26:44]  Who are these guys?
[01:26:46]  Just in a kind of like top line thing, what is the Russian volunteer units?
[01:26:50]  Who are these guys?
[01:26:51]  What's going on here?
[01:26:52]  Yeah, so I mean, it's not actually that hard to describe who they are.
[01:26:55]  These are Russian neo-Nazis who migrated to Ukraine around or before 2014, the main figures in this at least.
[01:27:05]  These were quite well-known figures in the Russian hardcore neo-Nazi scene.
[01:27:10]  And they became very, very strong supporters of the Azov movement in Ukraine as soon as it emerged.
[01:27:17]  And Then in 2022, late 2022, they were created, they formed a unit, the Russian Volunteer Corps, which states as its purpose to sort of like it's a Russian unit, which is on the side of Ukraine.
[01:27:32]  Originally, there was a kind of pretense of it being independent, but Reuters, according to Reuters, so Reuters is not a Russian propaganda source, I've been informed, it is a unit of the GUR.
[01:27:45]  And I mean, they are also open about the fact that they are a unit of the GUR, the Russian Volunteer Corps.
[01:27:51]  And Budanov himself is also, you know, he's more and more like, at first, he sort of made this coy joke of like, oh, you know, they're our friends and they're helping us.
[01:28:00]  But now he's pretty open about it.
[01:28:02]  And in their videos, they sort of, as members of, anyway, so it's not a secret at all.
[01:28:06]  And Western media says this and so on.
[01:28:08]  So that's what the GURR.
[01:28:11]  So not the GUR, the RDK, Russian Volunteer Corps.
[01:28:13]  The RDK is just like the Ukrainian Russian abbreviation for it.
[01:28:18]  And I'm just sort of used to that.
[01:28:19]  So I just call them by that.
[01:28:23]  They're just very, very extreme neo-Nazis, more like extreme and in your face than the rest of Azov.
[01:28:28]  Azov tries to sort of hide often in its, especially in its sort of communications, its beliefs.
[01:28:34]  Yeah, they took out the black sun.
[01:28:36]  Well, they still haven't.
[01:28:38]  Sometimes they take out the black sun.
[01:28:40]  They made a thing about how they claim to remove it.
[01:28:42]  But I mean, it's interesting.
[01:28:43]  I mean, as of, they're into this kind of metapolitics idea of these like French, like post-right, whatever, I mean, right-wing guys, basically, in the 1980s of like, and the idea is that society is not normalized to society.
[01:28:57]  It gets really freaked out by fascism.
[01:28:59]  So we need to sort of gradually reintroduce it, but be kind of coy about our intentions and so on.
[01:29:05]  And Azov ideologists are very into this idea.
[01:29:08]  Elena Semenyaka, she's a very, she's like the leading sort of philosopher of the Azov movement.
[01:29:13]  She's really into this idea.
[01:29:14]  Metapolitics gradually, yeah, probably, she met with Sada.
[01:29:19]  Sada came to her conference and she's like close friends with, I mean, I'm close friends, but she's an associate of Saturn, Caleb Sutter.
[01:29:27]  But the RDK guys, they don't really care about metapolitics.
[01:29:30]  They're just into Hitler and esoteric Hitlerism and they just talk about this all the time.
[01:29:36]  So that's the overall.
[01:29:37]  We can go and now we can, yeah.
[01:29:40]  Yeah, so how did these guys get started?
[01:29:42]  I mean, you mentioned that they're sort of these like Nazis from Russia who migrated to Ukraine.
[01:29:50]  When did they get started in like in terms of becoming like a military unit?
[01:29:56]  In 2022, and what has that unit done exactly?
[01:30:00]  Yeah, I mean, it's quite a small unit.
[01:30:04]  Like there's kind of estimates of like a few hundred people or so.
[01:30:07]  But I mean, they really came to prominence.
[01:30:11]  It was, I think, like March 2023, something like that, in 2023, where they had these different raids into the border areas of Russia.
[01:30:23]  So, in the Bryansk region, the Belgrade region, and so on.
[01:30:27]  These are the northern, like southern Russia, obviously, but bordering with Ukraine, so in the northern part of Ukraine.
[01:30:33]  But these were very small raids, I mean, since there's not many people in there, but it's just that they weren't very well guarded, these areas.
[01:30:39]  I mean, it's obviously a huge border region.
[01:30:41]  It's like, you know, thousand kilometers.
[01:30:43]  So, and they took some videos and went in.
[01:30:46]  The Russian government accused them of murdering civilians that they encountered.
[01:30:52]  But they didn't, it was very much like a media show in terms of showing.
[01:30:58]  And this is like a very big part of the Russian Volunteer Corps.
[01:31:03]  They have a very, very active online presence because obviously the whole purpose is to attract Russians to join their cause and to fight on the side of Ukraine against Russia.
[01:31:12]  And apart from fighting in the RDK specifically, there's also a German volunteer corps, by the way.
[01:31:18]  And they're linked by the Russian Volunteer Corps and the Telegram.
[01:31:21]  The German Volunteer Corps is extremely, extremely pro-Hitler and very, very, very about that.
[01:31:26]  And they also fight on the side of Ukraine.
[01:31:28]  But anyway, back to the Russian Volunteer Corps.
[01:31:31]  They also really encourage their followers on Telegram to do various actions inside of Russia.
[01:31:38]  So like, you know, throwing a Maltov cocktail into a Russian law enforcement office or into a Russian military, anything building associated with the Russian army or the Russian law enforcement, so on.
[01:31:52]  And I mean, this is also, I mean, something that both countries essentially do, where they, and I mean, essentially, this is in many contemporary conflicts where like in Israel and so on, there's different reports where like Iran, they'll pay people on the internet to do different things.
[01:32:11]  And it often starts from a small thing, like drawing some graffiti that's like, you know, fuck Netanyahu or something in whatever language.
[01:32:19]  And then it's also similar, but then it increases and they get paid for it a little bit or something.
[01:32:25]  But then it increases.
[01:32:26]  They ask you to do more and more.
[01:32:27]  And then, you know, throwing a Molotov cocktail, or obviously it could be even kind of violent actions as well.
[01:32:33]  And it's a similar thing where the Ukrainian government, they accuse the Russian intelligence services of doing the same thing in Ukraine, where they will pay often young people in Ukraine.
[01:32:45]  This is what the Ukrainian government claims.
[01:32:47]  The Russian intelligence services will pay Ukrainian teams to attack, particularly like mobilization officers that have a lot of public hatred against them in Ukraine because of their sort of violent methods of mobilizing people.
[01:33:02]  And so they'll attack mobilization vehicles.
[01:33:04]  It's a very big, very big issue in Ukraine at the moment for the past six months, a year or so.
[01:33:10]  And anyway, so the RDK encourages its followers to do the same thing in Russia.
[01:33:14]  And they'll, you know, with throwing Maltov cocktails or attacking whatever things.
[01:33:18]  And then so the important context, I mean, a little bit more about what the RDK is.
[01:33:23]  So there are two leaders, I mean, like, basically, two leaders or most prominent figures in them.
[01:33:29]  There's Dennis Nikitian, also known as White Rex.
[01:33:35]  He has a clothing brand called White Rex, which is...
[01:33:38]  These guys are all, by the way...
[01:33:40]  Yeah.
[01:33:40]  Yeah.
[01:33:41]  All have clothing brands.
[01:33:42]  It's really big.
[01:33:43]  What's up with that?
[01:33:44]  I have no idea, but it's like a huge thing.
[01:33:47]  It's like Cypressa.
[01:33:48]  On Instagram, I just follow a bunch of like Ukrainian Nazi warrior guys.
[01:33:53]  And they all, like, half of their posts are like, we're fucking get ready.
[01:33:57]  We're going to go fucking kill some people.
[01:33:59]  And then the other ones will be like six ads in a row for like their fucking, you know, their new clothing brand.
[01:34:06]  There is a huge subsection of like Ukrainian professional soldiers who are also now professional sort of like, I mean, frankly, probably drop shipping like, you know, merchandise guys.
[01:34:19]  Yeah.
[01:34:20]  There's also Svostone, which is a big one.
[01:34:23]  And that's also a big sort of Ukrainian neo-Nazi clothing brand.
[01:34:29]  It's often also worn by this guy, Sergei Stevnyenka, who's like a liberal allied Ukrainian neo-Nazi.
[01:34:34]  He's very like close with different liberal NGOs and stuff in Ukraine.
[01:34:40]  But he's kind of opposed to the Azov guys.
[01:34:42]  Anyway, that's all different.
[01:34:42]  Interesting subplot.
[01:34:44]  But yeah, so Nikitin has, Nikitin is from Russia, but he lived in Germany for lots of his life.
[01:34:52]  He's actually been banned from the, but he moved to Ukraine.
[01:34:56]  He was a football hooligan.
[01:34:57]  He's actually been banned from the Schengen, from he's banned from visiting the EU from 2019 because of his violent neo-Nazi beliefs.
[01:35:07]  And so, I mean, like, I guess like one interesting thing about the RDK is that Western media coverage about them, even from the beginning when they had their whole, you know, raids into Russia, which were kind of like, you know, hyped up to an extent in the Western media, obviously, and Ukrainian media was very hyped up.
[01:35:24]  But even from the beginning, Western media was very, very clear that these people are very, very bad, very like they're very neo-Nazi in a way that they really have done the opposite thing with Azov, where they've said, well, you know, there are some weird extremist figures in there, but they've cleaned up their act.
[01:35:41]  And generally, they don't even really mention it anymore with Azov.
[01:35:44]  But I mean, the RDK has always, their leaders have always said, like, we are, our whole purpose is to serve the Azov movement.
[01:35:51]  They are all at all of the different Azov, like they're in the Azov movement.
[01:35:55]  I mean, it's also worth mentioning that Azov is a large movement that encompasses a wide range of different military units, several, many different military units, and then also many different civic organizations and so on, civic organizations, obviously, in a sort of charitable sense of the term.
[01:36:14]  But so that Nikitin, he's one guy.
[01:36:18]  And then there's also another big guy, Alexei Levkin.
[01:36:23]  And he is also Russian.
[01:36:26]  And he came directly to Ukraine.
[01:36:29]  He didn't spend any time in Europe.
[01:36:32]  He also came around 2014 or so to Ukraine.
[01:36:35]  But he's a very well-known figure in the Russian neo-Nazi scene.
[01:36:39]  He is the guy in charge of this, the Wotan-Jugend community.
[01:36:46]  The Wotan Jugend?
[01:36:48]  Yes.
[01:36:48]  So the Wotan.
[01:36:51]  So I mean, he describes himself as like an esoteric Hitlerist.
[01:36:56]  He has like candle wax, like Hitler birthday sort of sessions.
[01:37:03]  Right.
[01:37:04]  Yeah.
[01:37:04]  And he also has one of the things the Wotan Jugend community, which is he posts like, and that's been around since the 2000s.
[01:37:11]  It's really like it's been a long time.
[01:37:12]  That's like a Telegram channel or what?
[01:37:14]  Well, I mean, as I understand, it's, yeah, mainly, I mean, it's Telegram, it may have been a forum at some point.
[01:37:20]  Right now, it's mainly a Telegram thing.
[01:37:22]  He posts his sort of esoteric philosophical essays and so on about different, they're really into paganism.
[01:37:29]  Azov guys are also very much into paganism.
[01:37:31]  That's a big thing.

=== Hitlerist Candle Wax Sessions (12:16) ===

[01:37:34]  But these guys are really, really into paganism.
[01:37:37]  But Levkin also has a National Socialist Black Metal group called M8L8TH, obviously 8-8, Heil Hitler.
[01:37:47]  It's also called Hitler's Hammer because the word in Russian, it means hammer.
[01:37:53]  And so, and that group is also been around for a long time and it's quite popular and so on in this scene.
[01:38:03]  NSBM.
[01:38:04]  NSBM.
[01:38:05]  And NSBM also obviously is for a long time been a big thing in Ukraine, particularly in the city of Kharkiv, which is, you know, if any enjoys of NSBM out there, that's where lots of the big Ukrainian NSB cities came from.
[01:38:18]  And that's also the city where the Azov movement really came from, city of Pakistan.
[01:38:22]  Let me interrupt you real quick.
[01:38:23]  I got something to say about BM and NSBM.
[01:38:27]  And this is not, I love baby mamas, but I hate black metal.
[01:38:31]  It's all the same song.
[01:38:33]  I'm sorry.
[01:38:34]  Whether you're singing about Hitler or you're one of these ones that's like singing about nature or whatever, which is also Hitler, it's all, I just, I, and it's the same song and I don't like the song.
[01:38:45]  I don't like the song.
[01:38:46]  It's Grindcore without blast beats.
[01:38:48]  It's just, I can't, black metal to me is just, and we're going to, people are not going to like this, but I just, it's one of my most hated genres of music.
[01:38:57]  It's so corny.
[01:39:02]  But the songs aren't good.
[01:39:03]  It's worse than black people music and it's worse than metal music.
[01:39:09]  Yep.
[01:39:10]  It's 100% true.
[01:39:12]  And I mean, it is worth mentioning that, I mean, Levkin is still very much into his musical career, despite serving in the RDK and as being sort of like one of like the leader alongside Nikitin.
[01:39:26]  Levkin had there's also like an NSBM festival called what's it like Asgard Frey?
[01:39:32]  Asgard Srey.
[01:39:34]  And Levkin sort of organizes, well, this is his, it's a, it's his music project.
[01:39:38]  He had a recent concert, Yule Knight.
[01:39:41]  He also has like a label, which is also like a merch thing called Militant Zone.
[01:39:46]  Anyway, that's got lots of like occult literature, merchandise, music.
[01:39:50]  But there was actually an interview with Levkin by the Armia Inforum, which is like the Ukrainian army's official media, I don't know, media publication where they do different interviews with like, you know, great soldiers.
[01:40:05]  And they had a big interview with Levkin this year, 2025.
[01:40:09]  And they talked for a long time about, I believe they called it like the right-wing movement, you know, his experience as a representative of the Russian right-wing movement and, you know, and so on and so on.
[01:40:20]  And also a long thing about Asgard Srey and his recent Yule Knight.
[01:40:26]  Yeah, Yule Knight concert.
[01:40:28]  And the, I think it's the drummer or maybe the vocalist in, I always like how to like pronounce it.
[01:40:34]  Like I always write it.
[01:40:35]  It's like M8, L8.
[01:40:37]  But it's like Hitler's Hammer.
[01:40:39]  Let's just call it Hitler's Hammer because that's kind of like the fan name for it.
[01:40:42]  Hitler's Hammer.
[01:40:44]  The other lead vocalist of Hitler's Hammer is a well-known Azov guy in the Azov battalion.
[01:40:50]  But yeah, so they asked him about how Yule Knight went.
[01:40:53]  He talks about it along for a lot.
[01:40:54]  He talks about that for like a huge part of the interview, his music career.
[01:40:59]  But what's interesting about this is he has this really quite big network of fans in Russia.
[01:41:06]  And these online communities, like people who are into Hitler's Hammer and also the subscribers to, what's it, Welta and Jugend.
[01:41:15]  These are like tens of thousands of people, like, you know, 40,000 and so on.
[01:41:18]  And mainly in Russia, really.
[01:41:22]  And yeah.
[01:41:24]  And I guess, so I guess that's the main figures.
[01:41:28]  And I guess now we can maybe get to a less appreciated member of the RDK.
[01:41:34]  Because I mean, when you read the Western media reports about RDK, they'll generally talk about Nikitin, how he was banned from EU and how it's like really bad neo-Nazi and so on.
[01:41:44]  And also about Levkin, who's also very, very, not a very good guy.
[01:41:49]  I'm not going to tell you the lyrics of the Hitler's Hammer songs.
[01:41:52]  He obviously gets a lot of people.
[01:41:53]  Like what they're about.
[01:41:54]  It's about Holocaust, blah, blah, blah.
[01:41:57]  But I think the Nord division lyrics were kind of more entertaining in a certain sense and interesting because talking about the Buddha and so on.
[01:42:05]  But there's another member of the RDK and his name is Alexei Kanakin.
[01:42:12]  Should we begin talking about him?
[01:42:14]  Absolutely.
[01:42:15]  Yeah, what's his deal?
[01:42:16]  So his deal is, it's actually interesting.
[01:42:19]  He's actually, he was an actor originally.
[01:42:22]  I mean, this is a recurring story in, I guess, the world, right?
[01:42:27]  I mean, show business entering politics.
[01:42:30]  And so Kanakin was originally an actor in Russia.
[01:42:34]  And there's actually another on the topic of show business, and one of the press secretary, whatever, of the RDK, he's actually the son of one of an important figure in the Kwartal 95, which is Zelensky's comedy studio, which has been around since the 2000s.
[01:42:56]  And his son is this hardcore neo-Nazi press secretary of the RDK.
[01:43:01]  He actually has a really funny quote, his son, about Zelensky.
[01:43:06]  I can actually read it out to you.
[01:43:10]  So this is, he said about Zelensky.
[01:43:13]  This is an interview that he gave.
[01:43:15]  Zelensky presented himself in such a way that I was completely taken aback.
[01:43:18]  So he's met Zelensky because his father has known Zelensky forever because he was working in the comedy studio that Zelensky was the main comedian of.
[01:43:26]  So Zelensky's rhetoric, and especially the fact that Israel is indeed maintaining a neutrality favorable to Russia, leads me to think that Volodymyr Alexandrovich Zelensky is, after all, our kite.
[01:43:38]  Sorry.
[01:43:39]  No, no, no, man.
[01:43:40]  You're forgiven.
[01:43:42]  You have the past.
[01:43:43]  Sorry.
[01:43:43]  In Churchill's sense, he puts this in brackets.
[01:43:46]  And not just Zog.
[01:43:47]  That's Zelensky.
[01:43:48]  So he's not just Zog.
[01:43:49]  He's actually our.
[01:43:50]  So they give him, which is funny because that is such like an echo of the 4chan shit of like our guy or whatever, how they describe people.
[01:44:00]  Yeah.
[01:44:01]  God.
[01:44:01]  Well, these people, I mean, it's so crazy because you do have to do these kind of weird mental gymnastics because ultimately your leader is a Jew of your country.
[01:44:15]  And these guys sort of like they kind of just paint him as like he's either one of the good ones, but they also are kind of more willing to turn on him.
[01:44:24]  I also forgot a wonderful fact as well that Nikitin, the leader of the RDK, he's from a Jewish family.
[01:44:30]  And he fantastically, he most likely, I think either definitely or most likely was able to gain asylum in Germany as like a Russian Jew on some kind of program.
[01:44:44]  It mirrors how the fact that in the early 2000s, there were these Nazi skinhead groups forming in Israel of like oftentimes Eastern Europeans who had migrated over there with the law of return because they'd had like a Jewish grandparent or maybe they hadn't.
[01:44:59]  And they sort of started forming these like Nazi sort of hooligan street gangs in Israel.
[01:45:04]  Yeah.
[01:45:05]  I mean, I will just say, just, I mean, this is kind of tangential, but I mean, the Jewishness in, this is also someone whose family is like sort of culturally Jewish.
[01:45:17]  I mean, Jewish, I think at a certain point were Jewish.
[01:45:20]  Definitely were Jewish at a certain point.
[01:45:22]  But what happened in the Soviet Union is you really did have this kind of denationalization.
[01:45:27]  I mean, everyone became a little bit Jewish in the Soviet Union.
[01:45:31]  I'm going to say that.
[01:45:32]  And then the Jews became less Jewish.
[01:45:36]  And I don't think that's bad.
[01:45:37]  I think that's fine.
[01:45:38]  Everyone became a little bit of everything.
[01:45:40]  And there's actually a term that Russian neo-Nazis have, which is the Noviop, which is like the new, whatever the fuck it is.
[01:45:49]  But basically, it's this idea that Soviet Union denationalized the Russians and it made them into like these denationalized intellectual cucks, right?
[01:46:00]  And it's funny.
[01:46:01]  It's funny.
[01:46:02]  You see this in the 90s and the 2000s and even now a lot, like Russian people sort of acting like, you know, we're becoming a minority in our own country.
[01:46:11]  Like the majority, the majority becomes the oppressed minority sort of in their telling of events.
[01:46:18]  You know, oppressed by either Judeo-Bolshevism or just even in general, like this denationalization that happened during the Soviet Union.
[01:46:25]  Yeah.
[01:46:25]  But I will also say that like, I mean, the RDK and stuff, they also have this idea that the ethnic Russians are oppressed in Russia, but also that all of the ethnic, well, I mean, like, sometimes they say this, sometimes not, but like all the ethnic groups are oppressed.
[01:46:39]  And that's why we need to destroy Russia.
[01:46:40]  And we need to have like a bunch of ethnic confederations working together.
[01:46:45]  And they also have, you know, a part of the RDK is these like North Siberian separatist groups, Karelian.
[01:46:53]  And they also, you know, they have a lot of, they do a lot of stuff working together with these other groups that advocate splitting up Russia on ethnic lines with a million different states and so on.
[01:47:04]  Funny enough, that's also a very popular position at the U.S. State Department.
[01:47:08]  Well, exactly.
[01:47:09]  I mean, like, like, I mean, this is this convergence between these liberal and they had these breadwinctric, like the decolonization of Russia and so on.
[01:47:18]  And I mean, this also goes way back to World War II, where you had the Nazis also had this, you know, they did try at certain points to ally at certain points with some of the Muslim populations in Russia.
[01:47:32]  And they allied with the Ukrainian nationalists who had this whole thing, and they had this, it was like the Block of Oppressed Nations or something in 1943, led by the Ukrainians.
[01:47:42]  And this was like a network as well that went back a little bit before the 20s and 30s, like this Prometheus network.
[01:47:48]  Also, sort of similar thing when like the block of oppressed nations, yes, but then also post-World War II, like you know, the anti-communist league and all this kind of stuff.
[01:47:59]  It's a very similar thing.
[01:48:01]  Well, it was led by the Ukrainians, the anti-communist bloc, is like the Ukrainians, the organization of the Ukrainian nationalists, forget the guy's name, but like this, you know, and that was an explicitly like a CIA front group, but I mean, but they had plenty of their own resources as well.
[01:48:18]  And then with the, you know, South Korea and Taiwan, all these different things, all these guys.
[01:48:25]  And this idea that Russia is the Soviet Union is a prison house of nations, the same as the Russian Empire.
[01:48:31]  We need to liberate all these nations and so on and so on.
[01:48:35]  And then, and these organizations still exist today.
[01:48:39]  I mean, there's like the Mars Robeson, kind of writer on Substack, there's lots of great research.
[01:48:44]  He's been on the show.
[01:48:44]  He's been on the show.
[01:48:46]  He does lots of great research in these networks, decolonization type of thing.
[01:48:52]  But it's interesting because it networks with this Russian right-wing idea that we need to get rid of the ethnic republics because we don't like them, right?
[01:49:00]  Because they're not white.
[01:49:01]  We need to get rid of them.
[01:49:02]  We don't need them in our state.
[01:49:05]  And I mean, plenty of Russian liberals are also very racist in general.
[01:49:09]  And much more openly racist as well.
[01:49:12]  I mean, like Ukrainian liberals as well.
[01:49:13]  In Eastern Europe, it's a lot more normal to be racist.
[01:49:16]  I'll put that out there.
[01:49:17]  And especially, and you have this general kind of class sort of racism that's much more normal where the sort of, I mean, true in many countries, but especially there, where sort of the urban middle class liberal elite, which is a very small group of the population, they really look at the rest of the country as being these barbaric, you know, savages and so on.
[01:49:38]  Anyway, but I mean, I was all, I got a little bit sidetracked, but Karillo, Kirill Kanakim, RDK guy, show business, failed comedian.

=== Kolos Peninsula Connections (08:33) ===

[01:49:51]  And he's interesting, so he's a fighter in the RDK.
[01:49:55]  And the reason why I bring him up is because he is like basically, he's into, he was, he's openly about the fact that he was a member of an O9A, Order of Nine Angels, Nexion, or CEL, in Russia for several years.
[01:50:10]  And he talks about this in his Telegram.
[01:50:12]  You can see it.
[01:50:13]  And he talks about this.
[01:50:14]  He now claims to be like a new ideology, also this Hinduist type of thing.
[01:50:19]  They're really into these, you know, because there was that guy, that woman, what's it like, Sanskrit or something?
[01:50:23]  Savitri Devry.
[01:50:24]  That's right.
[01:50:25]  Yeah, This European Nazi in the 1940s who worked with Hitler and so on.
[01:50:33]  And yeah, but was in India and created this sort of esoteric Hinduism that sort of became more prominent in the post, or definitely only became prominent in the post-sort of Third Reich international Nazi scene.
[01:50:46]  This guy was, this is part of Order of the Nine Angles in Russia.
[01:50:50]  Yeah, that's right.
[01:50:50]  So, like, there was this, and this ties back.
[01:50:54]  So, basically, so Martin Press, Caleb Sutter, they published this book in 2015 called The Kiss of Morena, Kiss of Marina, I was spelt with Morena.
[01:51:04]  What was it?
[01:51:04]  Like, Kiss of Morena Black Sun or something.
[01:51:06]  Had Black Sun name, but the main thing was Kiss of Morena.
[01:51:08]  And it was published by Martin Press, the Caleb Sutter FBI-funded publishing company, which was which publishes all these insane, awful books with murder and all kinds of bad actions.
[01:51:23]  I haven't read Kisses Morena.
[01:51:24]  As I understand from the synopses that I've read, it's not like really, really.
[01:51:30]  Well, I think they do like serial killings.
[01:51:32]  Basically, the plot is this guy finds this cool, dark intellectual guy, and he has like a knife club.
[01:51:42]  Right when people are really into knives, they really like knife clubs in Ukraine, Russia.
[01:51:46]  And then, you know, it's a big thing.
[01:51:48]  But he joins this knife club, and then he initiates him into like this occult ideology and essentially ends up like becoming a serial killer, as I understand.
[01:51:59]  And so, one of the only mentions of this book was by Kiril Konakin in 2021 on his Telegram.
[01:52:08]  And you can still find this on his Telegram.
[01:52:10]  It's all on there, and I have links and you can read it for yourself if you want.
[01:52:13]  So, he reposted a video of himself reading this poem, The Crusade of the Children.
[01:52:18]  And he said that he wrote it in 2012.
[01:52:21]  And this poem actually gained popularity through Levkins, Wolter Newgand community.
[01:52:26]  So, we've talked about it before, but this was back in the 2012 period.
[01:52:32]  And the video begins, like in the video, there's a reference to the 09A Russian nexion called The Tempel of the Black Sun.
[01:52:44]  And then the poem continues.
[01:52:46]  I'm not going to read all the poems.
[01:52:47]  I have it in my article, but it is kind of an interesting poem in that the whole topic of the poem is children.
[01:52:55]  I'll read one bit.
[01:52:56]  Like, against the vile adult world, against your beloved whores, against your treasured idols, children will take up knives, children will take up pistols, children will shatter illusions, boosting newspaper circulations.
[01:53:10]  And you'll spew bile lounging on kitchen sofas.
[01:53:13]  Who taught them to kill?
[01:53:15]  How can they hate so deeply?
[01:53:18]  And then blah, blah, different stuff.
[01:53:20]  He makes a reference to like Kristallnacht and stuff.
[01:53:23]  But it's called The Crusade of the Children.
[01:53:24]  Now, I think it's kind of an interesting, it's interesting that he has this idea back in 2012 of kind of essentially like manipulating children, right, to commit violent acts.
[01:53:34]  I mean, that's the only reading of the story, of the poem that there is.
[01:53:42]  And then he also says in his telegram that he, so the Temple of the Black Sun, he writes, was a Moscow-based group operating within the Order of Nine Angels, a circle that formed my main social circle for several years.
[01:53:57]  The video was actually first published in 2013.
[01:54:00]  It was dedicated to the National Socialist Organization North, which is a group that was arrested in Russia for dozens of murders, mainly obviously of migrant, you know, non-ethnically Russian migrants.
[01:54:14]  And this is a group that's often praised as well in RDK media and both in Newgand and so on, even quite recently, because they're just this very, very extreme anti-government Russian neo-Nazi group.
[01:54:28]  It's also interesting that this video by Kanakian was filmed in the Kolo Peninsula, which is this very far northern part of Russia, close to Finland and the White Sea and so on, where obviously neo-Nazis, they're really into the whole Arctic, Antarctic type of thing, you know, Hitler hiding out there.
[01:54:49]  Yeah, and also that's like, that's where the Aryan promised land is.
[01:54:52]  Exactly, exactly.
[01:54:53]  It's where they should, they should stay there.
[01:54:56]  I think it'd be fun.
[01:54:57]  Gartha, I think it is.
[01:54:58]  Yeah, maybe they could just stay up there.
[01:54:59]  It's like minus 40 all the time.
[01:55:01]  I've actually been up there around that area, not as part of the Order of the Nine Angles as a young child on a sort of holiday.
[01:55:09]  It's not a nice place, though.
[01:55:11]  There's so many mosquitoes.
[01:55:12]  I don't know.
[01:55:13]  It's really, really bad.
[01:55:14]  Yeah, I'm good.
[01:55:15]  I'm good.
[01:55:16]  So he's writing this sort of stuff that's like, that almost can be interpreted as like very much in line with a lot of the 76409A, like go out and kill, like young people go out and kill kind of ideology.
[01:55:32]  Yeah, and I mean, there was also, there were some arrests in Russia for people that committed ritual murders in the Kolo Peninsula that were like 09A associated people.
[01:55:41]  Actually, they were arrested quite recently in 2024.
[01:55:45]  They were Satanists that ate and cooked victims, but they were found in relation to drug smuggling, which is interesting.
[01:55:52]  And like, I mean, Kanakian, his telegram, he has photos from the Kolo Peninsula where they made like shrines, like occult shrines with rocks.
[01:56:01]  And this was actually like a photograph, a shrine that was used in the cover of Kiss of Norenus.
[01:56:07]  And there's also like this Investigative journalist, uh, Russian investigative journalist that goes, uh, anti-fascist investigative journalist actually, uh, who goes deep into the whole like Kanakian story and uh finds other evidence that like he interviewed this this woman that illustrated the book.
[01:56:26]  So basically, he was involved with this book.
[01:56:28]  And it is also just worth, I guess, mentioning again that the way that O9A works because it's not an organization, it's really they have publishers and people read their books, and this kind of inspires them to do all kinds of crazy stuff, right?
[01:56:40]  Uh, and the books are intended, they have all these different instructions.
[01:56:43]  If you know, you can you can get all this magic points if you do this and do this and so on.
[01:56:47]  Um, but uh, Konakin said in 2021 on his Telegram, he said that I participated in Onan A rituals multiple times, but never underwent formal initiation into their tradition.
[01:56:59]  I mean, like what formal initiation is, like, no one really knows, whatever.
[01:57:03]  But he so he says that he engaged in rituals in the Kola Peninsula, which is very, very sus to put mildly.
[01:57:11]  But then, in terms, so I mean, that's like his main connection with the ONNA.
[01:57:18]  He said he was connected.
[01:57:19]  Now he says he's into this weird Hinduist thing.
[01:57:23]  And then it's also interesting where, like, if you look at the content of the RDK, of which Konakin is a member, he's lived in Ukraine, I think, since 2014 or so.
[01:57:35]  And he's always was very big in the Azov movement, really big into tattoos, really big into yoga.
[01:57:42]  He's like a big yoga guy and Hindu yoga type thing.
[01:57:46]  And but he's kind of like, I would say he's maybe the third most visible figure in the ONINA.
[01:57:55]  He's very close friends with Levkin.
[01:57:57]  They do lots of stuff together.
[01:57:59]  They're involved in militant zone together, this merch brand and so on.
[01:58:03]  But it's also interesting.
[01:58:06]  I mean, if you look at the conference, the online content put out, the sort of, I guess, the metaphors they use, not metaphors, but the concepts they use.
[01:58:16]  For instance, in June 2023, Wolter and Ugand called Russian, they called on Russian neo-Nazis to join them in the fighting in Belgrade.

=== Couch Companions in Conflict (04:07) ===

[01:58:25]  So this is when the RDK did these raids into Belgorud, this Russian region bordering with Ukraine.
[01:58:32]  And I'm going to quote what they said.
[01:58:35]  Well, then, couch potatoes, is it not the Reiho War yet?
[01:58:39]  So they were sort of saying, like, if you're a real neo-Nazi and you believe in the Reiho war, which is the racial holy war, which is considered the sort of what we all need to be striving for, you need to participate on our side because we are destroying the Noviop multinational government of Vladimir Putin, who's a you know, um, neo-Bolshevik, and so that's what's what they call him.
[01:59:02]  Um, and you participate on our side, otherwise, you're a couch potato, you don't really take it seriously.
[01:59:07]  And I mean, some people have done that.
[01:59:09]  They've gone to join them.
[01:59:09]  Obviously, it's quite a small group.
[01:59:12]  But yeah, that's Kanakin.
[01:59:16]  Well, it's interesting because you kind of can't help but draw these connections to the methods of warfare that, I mean, I'm not just talking about in Ukraine now, but like in general that can kind of be deployed.
[01:59:34]  You know, there's these, you know, I mentioned sort of at the top here, but like the 764, sort of the Teragram kind of like network, which is, again, like, it's not like a hierarchical thing.
[01:59:44]  It's just very decentralized, very decentralized kind of like groups of, you know, Discord and Telegram and whatever other channels that don't really have any central leadership that sort of like spring up and then they'll have these offshoots and then those offshoots will have offshoots.
[02:00:02]  But overall, you know, there's this sort of mass desensitization towards like gore, towards killing.
[02:00:10]  There's this ramping up of like killing animals and then killing homeless people that really mirrors a lot of, especially the skinhead violence we saw in the 1990s in Russia.
[02:00:20]  I mean, just sort of as a, you know, I don't know what comparison there.
[02:00:25]  But it's, you know, one would think that if someone was trying to destabilize a country, that this would actually be like a pretty good little, I don't know, addition to an arsenal there.
[02:00:38]  And I'm not making claims that, you know, there is a is a 764 sort of unit of the GUR or whatever.
[02:00:48]  I think just in general, one can think of this as like both decentralized and probably bottom-up in a way.
[02:00:55]  You know, exhortations to mass violence that sometimes get carried out that are just sort of part of our nihilistic times and that's nihilistic violence that matches that.
[02:01:05]  But you can also, you know, kind of imagine that like if somebody kind of knows what they're doing and is very creative, like this could be a good way to, you know, for instance, the RDU, when they have these sort of one of their propaganda tactics is to have people like take a picture with a gun, like in a Russian town or whatever, and be like, we have people everywhere.
[02:01:31]  And there's sort of this like decentralized nature to all of it and this like lone wolfness to all of it that I think is really interesting.
[02:01:40]  You know, people talk a lot about fourth generation warfare, but if you're getting real, like this would be an integral component to fourth generation warfare because it is so like, you know, possible with the technology that we have now.
[02:01:56]  And also, just with the way that people are desensitized now, like gore, looking at gore stuff is like way more common, I think, among young people now, or certain kinds of young people now than it was like when we were kids.
[02:02:09]  Yeah, there was Rotten.com.
[02:02:10]  I saw a lot of nasty shit on the internet.
[02:02:12]  And then I feel like that kind of went away for a little bit, but now it's huge.
[02:02:16]  I mean, 8chan, 4chan, whatever is all kind of like a minor version of this.
[02:02:22]  But there are these huge sort of like pedophile, Nazi, nihilistic, whatever networks that kind of entrap people.

=== Misanthropic Division Influence (12:05) ===

[02:02:32]  I mean, I remember reading about this guy.
[02:02:34]  This is like, I think a big Washington Post or something article about this.
[02:02:38]  But this like Russian 14-year-old girl and all several other people on Discord basically got this mentally ill American guy that was like part of their Discord networks to self-immolate on camera when he was in Central Asia.
[02:02:53]  And it's like, I think about that.
[02:02:56]  And, you know, you sort of extrapolate that outwards to like, if you were really sort of serious about this and really wanted to get some shit done, you know, this would be a decent arsenal or a decent addition to any arsenal.
[02:03:10]  Absolutely.
[02:03:11]  I mean, like, I can also just say a few.
[02:03:14]  I mean, one thing is also it's worth noting is that Walter Nugand, they explicitly glorify like Brenton Tarrant, the, you know, the mass murderer who killed 50, I think, people at in New Zealand mosque in 2020 or something.
[02:03:30]  And he visited Ukraine and Russia, according to, I don't know, New Zealand government or something.
[02:03:36]  I mean, that's an established fact.
[02:03:37]  We don't know what he did while he was there.
[02:03:40]  He told people he got training with Azov, but like, we don't know if that's actually true.
[02:03:44]  He could have just been talking shit.
[02:03:45]  I mean, like, I mean, this, yeah, I mean, one thing I should say in relation to that, but I mean, also, Woltern Ugand, they also glorify like Timothy McVeigh and Anders Bravik.
[02:03:56]  And they translated Brenton Tarrant's manifesto into Ukrainian, into Russian.
[02:04:03]  And I mean, like, there's all, just on the topic of the Tarrant-style stuff, there was an interesting investigation that was done.
[02:04:15]  What was this like a Bellingcat article, 2019 Bellingcat article?
[02:04:18]  And they talked about one guy, Joachim Ferholm, who's a Norwegian guy that joined Azov in 2018.
[02:04:24]  And he told this documentary filmmaker that he intended to carry out terrorist attacks back home.
[02:04:31]  And he said that we've been training with Azov, blah, blah, blah, with other people from around the world.
[02:04:38]  And he said that once he's done what was expected of him by his hosts, he will proceed to direct action aimed at the West, including attacks on the government of Norway.
[02:04:45]  I'd target the government with anything necessary.
[02:04:49]  And he gave interviews with different American Radio Werewolf, which is this, obviously extreme neo-Nazi.
[02:04:58]  And that's, of course, the name of the Nazi stay-behind organization they tried to set up at the end of World War II.
[02:05:04]  Yeah, it's kind of like the whole Engleton sort of tongue-in-cheek references to, you know.
[02:05:09]  But he says, like, I want to lead a group of volunteers from all over the West and come back and spread there.
[02:05:14]  And there's also Bellingcat, they found Instagram things where Ferholm wrote to an Instagram user that was posing with a gun, like talking about how minorities went, like the sort of 4chan thing.
[02:05:30]  Basically, I'm going to do a shooting of minorities in the US and Joachim was trying to get him to come over to Ukraine.
[02:05:36]  So there's that thing.
[02:05:37]  But then I guess that's more of like in terms of in the West.
[02:05:41]  But then what is interesting, and we can maybe if we have time to come back to Kasap, we can also talk about that a bit more.
[02:05:47]  But I mean, in terms of Ukraine and Russia, like what you were saying in terms of like irregular warfare and psychological operations, there was, you know, when there were these first RDK attacks on the neighboring regions in Russia, there were some articles.
[02:06:05]  This was from a politico article where they talked with Budanov and so on about the RDK.
[02:06:15]  And Budanov says that he plans more cross-border attacks by the Russian Volunteer Corps.
[02:06:23]  And what he says is the goal is to show that Vladimir Putin cannot protect the population from the war getting into Russia.
[02:06:32]  This is a quote from Budanov, from the politico article.
[02:06:37]  When you're sitting, say, in St. Petersburg and you're seeing the war only on TV, you will always be supportive.
[02:06:43]  But people start to get nervous when some facility is attacked near their house.
[02:06:48]  And then he also shows, like, he shows images from a Telegram channel showing Russian civilians in the town of Belgrade surveying damaged local buildings.
[02:07:00]  And he says that the damage was caused by Russian anti-eck missiles shot at Ukrainian drones.
[02:07:05]  But he says that the traumatizing effect on the population was the same.
[02:07:09]  That's the term that's used in the article, this traumatizing effect.
[02:07:12]  And he says that Putin's war is supported by over 70% of Russians, which obviously has relevance in this context.
[02:07:24]  And then you can tie this, what Budanov says, the leader of the military intelligence.
[02:07:30]  And if you look at the posts by the RDK on their Telegram, this is a really recent post from April 2025.
[02:07:39]  And I mean, I just, this was when I wrote this article.
[02:07:41]  I just got the latest post, but they have posts like this basically every day.
[02:07:44]  This is the main purpose of the RDK telegram to propagandize these types of actions.
[02:07:49]  And so the quote is: Unknown heroes set fire to the entrance of the FSB's main building in Moscow.
[02:07:55]  The main product that Putin system sells to the people of Russia is security.
[02:08:00]  For security, we wage wars on distant frontiers.
[02:08:04]  For it, security forces read your private messages.
[02:08:07]  They fight for law enforcement.
[02:08:08]  The raids by the Russian Volunteer Corps have shattered the illusion of security.
[02:08:14]  And right just days ago, right in the heart of Moscow, concerned Russian citizens proved and sent us proof to publication that the FSB cannot even ensure its own safety.
[02:08:24]  So how can it protect its citizens?
[02:08:27]  And I think that's quite interesting, whereas this idea that, you know, in order to break Russian support for the war, Russian civilians need to feel insecure that their law enforcement's not able to protect them.
[02:08:43]  I mean, this was the same with the strategy of tension, which I think a lot of people kind of just lump in as being like a Gladio thing, which was a part, like Gladio was part of the strategy of tension.
[02:08:57]  But the strategy of tension really is to make people feel like their government can't protect them, you know, and to make things feel unsafe and random and tense.
[02:09:11]  So this is all very depressing.
[02:09:14]  But let's go back to Kassap, where it all began.
[02:09:18]  Because I think it's he is, God, I mean, I read through those court documents or I read through the affidavit, and it is really depressing.
[02:09:30]  But what do you think his place is in all of this?
[02:09:34]  Well, I mean, like, what's interesting is that different researchers into Kassap when this took place, they found that he'd interacted with the Telegram channels of the Misanthropic Division, which is not a like weird semi-group, but it does exist.
[02:09:55]  It has a popular Telegram channel, and it describes itself.
[02:09:59]  It's got like 20,000 followers.
[02:10:01]  And the Misanthropic Division has also been around since 2014 in Ukraine.
[02:10:05]  And it's also composed mainly of like Russian neo-Nazis that came to Ukraine.
[02:10:10]  They write in Russian or in English.
[02:10:13]  And they describe themselves as being like a support unit for Azov.
[02:10:17]  But they have very much like an international reach.
[02:10:19]  They write in English a lot.
[02:10:22]  They're also interesting in that they like, they publicly support school shootings.
[02:10:27]  And they post on their Telegram support about any school shooting in the U.S.
[02:10:33]  They say that it's great.
[02:10:34]  And they use this slang in the Russian neo-Nazi subculture of actions, which is like basically originally an action was when you kill or attack like a migrant.
[02:10:47]  So and this term of actions, it evolved to include any sort of violent act, like killing homeless people and any anti-state, like killing a police officer and so on.
[02:10:56]  But anyway, but misanthropic division, they use this to refer to school shootings as well.
[02:11:01]  And in this context as well, I mean, I'll also mention, I mean, I sort of wrote a lot more about this, but that different school shootings in Russia, they often, the people involved in that, they sometimes they wear Hitler's hammer shirts or have been seen with that sort of paraphernalia and are interested in this kind of subculture.
[02:11:21]  But anyway, but Kassap was on the misanthropic division forums and these Telegram channel.
[02:11:28]  And these are in English often.
[02:11:31]  So I mean, I think, you know, if he was talking to someone that was a Russian-speaking person in Ukraine, which is how the affidavit describes it, like a Russian-speaking person in Ukraine, talking about like, you know, right-wing accelerationist thought, it would be someone in the misanthropic division.
[02:11:47]  These are the guys that are really into this sort of thing.
[02:11:51]  And they were encouraging him to use like a drone to attack Trump, which is also kind of fairly on point for like, you know, Russia-Ukraine war.
[02:12:00]  FPV drones, he actually got the materials for the drone as well.
[02:12:05]  Like it describes this.
[02:12:07]  So he was actually like fairly seriously trying to go through with this.
[02:12:10]  Obviously, I mean, it was killing people as well.
[02:12:12]  So he wasn't just fantasizing about this.
[02:12:15]  He also asked about the RDK.
[02:12:17]  He asked if it was true that they are sponsored by Jewish people.
[02:12:24]  Because there's this Russian liberal oligarch, Nevzlin, who supports, who is said to finance the RDK.
[02:12:31]  He's an Israeli citizen as well.
[02:12:34]  And the RDK is also supported by Hadrukovsky, a famous Russian liberal anti-Putin opposition oligarch, blah, blah, blah, who's also of Jewish descent, as I believe.
[02:12:46]  Anyway, so he was a little bit skeptical of the RDK, but he was skeptical because they might not be Nazi enough, which is kind of a funny thing to say.
[02:12:55]  So yeah, and I mean, and you can look at the posts about when the news event happened.
[02:13:00]  If you go on the Telegram channels of misanthropic division and different Ukrainian right-wing channels, you know, they're supportive.
[02:13:08]  They're like, oh, cool guy.
[02:13:09]  But they were sort of in a joking way, like, you know, why did you just kill your parents?
[02:13:12]  That's dumb.
[02:13:13]  Like, who really cares?
[02:13:14]  And you should have, you know, you should have gone through with Trump because obviously they don't like Trump very much.
[02:13:18]  They think Trump is, he's not supportive of more military aid to Ukraine and so on.
[02:13:23]  Originally, they were kind of, I mean, they do kind of like Trump because they think he's like a right-wing kind of guy.
[02:13:27]  But then when he became president, they became pretty annoyed with him.
[02:13:32]  But yeah, that's kind of the cuss up story, I guess.
[02:13:36]  Well, Jesus Christ, Peter.
[02:13:40]  Thank you for joining us.
[02:13:42]  We just went around the world and back like three or four times, I feel like.
[02:13:47]  There are some pretty detailed articles discussing this and a lot of other shit on Peter's Substack that is events in Ukraine.
[02:13:58]  I got to tell you, I'm a subscriber.
[02:13:59]  It's a great sub stack.
[02:14:01]  Thank you so much for joining us.
[02:14:03]  Thank you so much for having me.
[02:14:04]  I really appreciate it.
[02:14:05]  I'm really glad we found time to do this.

=== A24's Meta Marvel Universe (02:20) ===

[02:14:38]  Well, what did we learn?
[02:14:40]  Oh, I learned that if I have a child, well, if I start talking to the children that I already have, they're not going on Roblox because, you know, a lot of this recruiting happens, Liz, on Roblox.
[02:14:50]  I know.
[02:14:52]  Should we be on there?
[02:14:53]  No.
[02:14:54]  Hey, have you heard about like to promote the podcast?
[02:14:57]  Have you heard about Truanon?
[02:15:00]  Talking to a nine-year-old on that.
[02:15:02]  We went on.
[02:15:03]  Do you remember when we went?
[02:15:05]  That was one of our best episodes when we went into the virtual world.
[02:15:08]  Oh, yeah.
[02:15:09]  Of course I remember.
[02:15:10]  We should do a follow-up.
[02:15:11]  Well, you know, there was a news item that said that Mada was discussing opportunities, business opportunities for a new luxury headset that they're coming out with next year or this year.
[02:15:29]  But they were talking, they were trying to partner with A24 and another studio to bring.
[02:15:36]  And I was like, oh, wait, we could go live in the A24 universe in the metaverse in MetaLand.
[02:15:42]  Me and Zendaya, dude, me and fucking Ari Aster.
[02:15:46]  I'm there with Anora.
[02:15:48]  Oh, my God.
[02:15:49]  We got, yeah, we got the little ethnic woman from Anora in there up in that bitch.
[02:15:53]  Oh, my God, that'd be so sick.
[02:15:55]  Yeah, live in a one-bedroom apartment in the 2020s.
[02:15:58]  The idea of having like an A24 Marvel universe in the meta headset.
[02:16:04]  It's like, yeah, that is actually where we're headed.
[02:16:06]  Zoomer slot.
[02:16:08]  Fucking fucking fuck everybody.
[02:16:11]  Is there, is there, it's A24.
[02:16:13]  What's the other one?
[02:16:13]  Isn't there another one like that, too?
[02:16:15]  It's like, with a cool company or whatever.
[02:16:19]  A24.
[02:16:20]  I'm A24 Graza.
[02:16:21]  That's what I'm naming my kid.
[02:16:24]  Little A24X Graza Squeezy Bottle, but it's for formula.
[02:16:30]  All right.
[02:16:31]  Let's wrap this up.
[02:16:32]  My name is Bryce.
[02:16:33]  I'm Liz.
[02:16:34]  I'm producer Young Jomsky.
[02:16:36]  And this is Truanon.
[02:16:37]  We'll see you next time.
[02:16:38]  Bye-bye.
[02:16:58]  Come here.