True Anon Truth Feed - Episode 449: October H8THE
Aired: 2025-04-07
Duration: 01:41:00


=== Adam Friedland's Kippah (10:22) ===

[00:00:00]  You had a question?
[00:00:05]  Our listeners can't see you right now.
[00:00:08]  their loss.
[00:00:09]  You are, you're doing the Schumer.
[00:00:12]  He's the 35-year-old Schumer.
[00:00:15]  I'm Schumering.
[00:00:16]  You're Schumering.
[00:00:18]  I don't know what you mean by that.
[00:00:19]  You have your glasses down on the tip of your nose.
[00:00:24]  Bifocal?
[00:00:25]  And he's b'kepod.
[00:00:27]  I'm wearing, oh, you're talking about my hat.
[00:00:30]  My little hat that I'm wearing?
[00:00:31]  I'm observant now.
[00:00:33]  Where did you get that?
[00:00:34]  I'm observant.
[00:00:36]  This has been in the main room of our studio for about, I don't know, like a year now?
[00:00:43]  Does it say Adam Friedland on you?
[00:00:44]  It does.
[00:00:45]  It's the Adam Friedland.
[00:00:46]  Yeah, it's Adam Friedland.
[00:00:47]  It says Adam Friedland on the Kippah.
[00:00:49]  It was an Adam Friedland Kippah.
[00:00:51]  I'm being observant.
[00:00:51]  I'm observing you're being anti-Semitic to me.
[00:00:54]  I'm not.
[00:00:54]  I'm being very pro-semitic.
[00:00:56]  I feel like, wait, let me lower my glass again.
[00:00:58]  I feel like perhaps I'm on a city street in Krakow in 1935.
[00:01:04]  I will say that while you're doing the Schumer with the glasses, you're doing the Booker with the Eyes.
[00:01:08]  I can't see anything.
[00:01:10]  So this is what people don't understand is I'm disabled in so many ways.
[00:01:13]  I can't see anything without my glasses.
[00:01:16]  I know.
[00:01:16]  And so like right now, I can't see if you're using your usual frown and fucking two middle fingers at me.
[00:01:21]  You're doing two middle fingers.
[00:01:22]  Oh, now you're Zeke Heilen.
[00:01:23]  No.
[00:01:24]  How many fingers?
[00:01:25]  Five of them at a angle.
[00:01:27]  Well, now I'm Zeke Hiland to show you.
[00:01:29]  But no, you're doing four fingers.
[00:01:30]  I can see.
[00:01:31]  Because I can see the space between the fingers.
[00:01:33]  It's kind of like jazz.
[00:01:58]  Ladies and gentlemen, podcasting, it was what?
[00:02:02]  It was an Adam Friedland kippah.
[00:02:03]  You put the kippah on.
[00:02:05]  I don't think I should do that.
[00:02:06]  Put the kippah on.
[00:02:08]  Burst into flames.
[00:02:09]  Put it on.
[00:02:10]  Put it on, Liz.
[00:02:11]  See how it feels.
[00:02:11]  Take it for a ride.
[00:02:12]  I will say that it's heavier than I thought.
[00:02:14]  I didn't realize that it's suede.
[00:02:16]  It's as heavy as the head that wears the Adam Friedland.
[00:02:19]  It's lead line.
[00:02:20]  I thought it was made of something else.
[00:02:23]  What do you think it was made out of?
[00:02:24]  Felt.
[00:02:25]  Gold?
[00:02:27]  I sometimes experience like a phantom kippah when I see photographs of myself.
[00:02:32]  I'm like, am I wearing one in the paper?
[00:02:34]  And I'm not because I don't wear one, but I look at a picture of myself and I perceive one.
[00:02:38]  Really?
[00:02:39]  Yeah.
[00:02:39]  Interesting.
[00:02:40]  Trauma.
[00:02:41]  What are the little arm ties called again?
[00:02:43]  Tefillin.
[00:02:44]  Tefillin.
[00:02:45]  Sometimes I tie off of the tefillin to shoot up adrenochrome.
[00:02:48]  Jesus Christ.
[00:02:48]  To get my fucking...
[00:02:49]  I got blood tested today.
[00:02:51]  I fucking freaked the fuck out, dude.
[00:02:53]  My shit was...
[00:02:54]  I do not like getting my blood taken from me.
[00:02:56]  You need it.
[00:02:57]  I need it.
[00:02:58]  You need it?
[00:02:59]  The blood.
[00:03:00]  Oh, that's like Trump style.
[00:03:02]  I get that.
[00:03:03]  You only have so much.
[00:03:04]  Well, no, I don't regenerate.
[00:03:05]  I don't regenerate.
[00:03:07]  That's why I have to suck it from other people.
[00:03:09]  But pause.
[00:03:10]  But I do.
[00:03:11]  But pause.
[00:03:12]  But still.
[00:03:14]  No, I was freaking out doing it.
[00:03:15]  I was like, and they're like, yeah, we're going to measure.
[00:03:18]  We'll measure your testosterone levels.
[00:03:20]  Well, you had that.
[00:03:21]  Well, we should talk about that off air.
[00:03:23]  What do you mean?
[00:03:24]  Well, I'll tell you.
[00:03:26]  What's your guess on mine?
[00:03:29]  What's the normal?
[00:03:31]  It's like 300-something.
[00:03:33]  No, no, no.
[00:03:33]  I don't know.
[00:03:34]  I didn't know you could test it.
[00:03:35]  I kind of thought it was like a spiritual.
[00:03:36]  Okay, everyone.
[00:03:37]  Hello.
[00:03:37]  I'm Liz.
[00:03:38]  My name is Brace.
[00:03:40]  And I'm producer Young Chomsky.
[00:03:42]  And then this is testosterone.
[00:03:45]  Truanon.
[00:03:46]  Truan.
[00:03:47]  We were talking to Dylan Sabate, and we're talking about a fucking piece of shit movie.
[00:03:52]  We didn't get to actually talk about it.
[00:03:54]  We don't really talk that much about the what happens in the movie.
[00:03:58]  We talked enough about it.
[00:03:59]  We talked a lot about it.
[00:04:00]  We talked a good amount about it.
[00:04:02]  I wish people could see the movie?
[00:04:04]  No, but like how insane.
[00:04:06]  We didn't talk about the people in the movie theater.
[00:04:08]  That's what I want to talk about right now.
[00:04:10]  The movie is called October 8th.
[00:04:13]  Hey, we get into it in like the main part of the episode, but suffice to say, is we saw a movie called October 8th.
[00:04:20]  8th.
[00:04:21]  8th.
[00:04:22]  In the Regal Cinema movie theater.
[00:04:25]  It was a Regal Cinema.
[00:04:28]  It was a Regal Cinema.
[00:04:29]  And you know what?
[00:04:29]  I charmed that motherfucking ticket lady.
[00:04:31]  She was loving me.
[00:04:32]  Because everybody except me.
[00:04:34]  She put up with you.
[00:04:35]  Everybody.
[00:04:35]  Did you find it interesting, Liz?
[00:04:36]  Because I did that everyone except me and you showed up late.
[00:04:39]  Everybody but us showed up late.
[00:04:41]  Well, we were just there early, so that's how that works.
[00:04:43]  Everyone showed up after 5:40.
[00:04:45]  Well, there were so many commercials before the trailers even.
[00:04:50]  Yeah, there was about 40.
[00:04:51]  I also want to say it was a long movie.
[00:04:54]  Yes.
[00:04:54]  It was a very long movie.
[00:04:56]  It was insanely long.
[00:04:57]  It was like two hours.
[00:04:59]  I would have believed it was four hours.
[00:05:01]  It was, and it just kept on going.
[00:05:03]  And I was fucking, you know, I'm playing fucking, I can't even think of iPhone games.
[00:05:07]  Switch.
[00:05:08]  I brought my Switch and my over-the-year headphones, and I was playing that shit.
[00:05:12]  You know, yeah, Young Chomsky is fucking, he's like, he's brought his ring lights taking selfies.
[00:05:16]  Liz is in there.
[00:05:17]  She's playing fucking.
[00:05:18]  Liz is just playing her keyboards that she plays, composing.
[00:05:21]  And of course, the three anti-Semites we brought were, I'm sure, composing some, you know, rude texts on their phone to send out to people.
[00:05:29]  But I got to tell you, I was bored as fuck during that movie.
[00:05:32]  Yeah.
[00:05:33]  I was like making notes on my notes app and then just like casually switching on over to see what was going on with Liberation Day.
[00:05:41]  Twitter on the small screen.
[00:05:43]  I forgot we saw this on Liberation Day.
[00:05:44]  We did see it on Liberation and Liberation Day, but the people in there.
[00:05:48]  So we had a poor scene gentleman in front of us who went by himself.
[00:05:53]  He was went by himself.
[00:05:55]  The older fellow.
[00:05:56]  And he was definitely drinking a beverage that he brought himself because it was not concession-approved brands.
[00:06:04]  Oh, you think you brought it in?
[00:06:06]  He definitely brought it in because they didn't sell it there.
[00:06:08]  Oh, it was alcohol.
[00:06:09]  No, I think it was like a different, it was like honest tea, but they didn't sell honest tea.
[00:06:14]  I think a lot of people seeing this movie are probably bringing their own concessions.
[00:06:16]  Oh, concession.
[00:06:17]  Okay, okay.
[00:06:19]  Well, it was this entire row of sort of ancient females.
[00:06:23]  No, they were not that ancient.
[00:06:25]  Oh, they just were ugly.
[00:06:26]  Look, no judgment.
[00:06:28]  I had some, but these women, okay, I will say this, just to paint a picture.
[00:06:33]  There was one in a Montclair puffy jacket, which it was like 70 degrees out.
[00:06:39]  It was a hot day.
[00:06:40]  It was a hot day.
[00:06:41]  Yeah, it was a hot day.
[00:06:43]  One was where it had a Goyard tote.
[00:06:45]  Another had a big Louis Vuitton, like, never full.
[00:06:50]  And all three had blowouts, fresh blowouts.
[00:06:55]  Yes.
[00:06:56]  I'm just putting, I'm just saying.
[00:06:57]  Well, if they wanted even fresher one, I was two rows behind.
[00:06:59]  But there was basically nobody else.
[00:07:02]  What?
[00:07:02]  I'm just sorry.
[00:07:04]  Oh, cool.
[00:07:04]  So my disability that caused me to say stuff like that is now offensive to you when it talks about someone in a Montclair fucking jersey or whatever the fuck.
[00:07:13]  There was those three women.
[00:07:14]  There was the big guy.
[00:07:16]  I think there was like a couple.
[00:07:17]  There was a married couple.
[00:07:18]  There was an ancient couple as well.
[00:07:20]  And then there was a brother in the front who I was like.
[00:07:24]  I thought he was just sleeping.
[00:07:25]  He was sleeping.
[00:07:26]  So I pissed twice during the movie because I drank a big old drink.
[00:07:30]  Yeah.
[00:07:31]  And then you got the zoomies.
[00:07:32]  So I want to apologize to everyone I interacted with for the rest of the night on Liberation Day because I didn't realize that Pepsi Zero had caffeine in it.
[00:07:43]  What?
[00:07:43]  How would you not think?
[00:07:44]  I don't drink that stuff.
[00:07:46]  I drink Diet Cokes, and I know that has caffeine in it, but I don't mess with the Zero stuff.
[00:07:51]  But why?
[00:07:51]  Oh, you think it has zero caffeine?
[00:07:54]  Yes, because they don't make caffeine-free Diet Coke anymore.
[00:07:58]  Is that true?
[00:07:59]  Yeah, they don't.
[00:07:59]  You don't see caffeine-free diet sodas that often.
[00:08:02]  Wow.
[00:08:02]  That was a big staple in my household as a child.
[00:08:04]  Oh, I don't fuck with that.
[00:08:05]  Big staple.
[00:08:06]  I don't like it, but I was like, okay, well, this is what replaced it.
[00:08:08]  I'm going to have this.
[00:08:09]  So it's just another Diet Coke that they made.
[00:08:12]  That's a different method.
[00:08:13]  It's a different kind.
[00:08:14]  Okay.
[00:08:15]  Well, I'm not interested, but I drank that giant soda.
[00:08:18]  Liz and I were.
[00:08:18]  Liz and I both got popcorn and candy.
[00:08:21]  Yeah.
[00:08:21]  We shared the candy.
[00:08:22]  We shared the candy.
[00:08:22]  I didn't eat or drink.
[00:08:25]  Fucking look at you.
[00:08:26]  Look at you.
[00:08:27]  All right.
[00:08:27]  All right.
[00:08:28]  Fucking, who's the.
[00:08:29]  I was focused on the tea.
[00:08:30]  You're so much better than us.
[00:08:31]  You're so much better.
[00:08:32]  I had a good time with my friend, Liz.
[00:08:35]  Just saying everybody's talking about what they're eating and drinking.
[00:08:37]  And just for completion.
[00:08:38]  Well, I want to say this.
[00:08:40]  I love movie popcorn.
[00:08:41]  It's like my favorite thing.
[00:08:42]  And they had candy.
[00:08:43]  I love, just like I love watching slop.
[00:08:45]  I love eating slop.
[00:08:46]  I love trash food.
[00:08:47]  I love garbage food.
[00:08:48]  And I love fucking movie theater popcorn.
[00:08:51]  And anytime I get to go to the movies, which is not that often, I get a big old popcorn.
[00:08:55]  I only ate like a quarter of it because it kind of made me sick.
[00:08:58]  Liz, but what did we see when you and I went to the ancillary concession stand to put a little salt and butter on our popcorn?
[00:09:07]  A black light.
[00:09:09]  Oh, yeah, that's cool.
[00:09:10]  That's caused.
[00:09:11]  It was the craziest design decision I've ever seen in my life.
[00:09:15]  You wouldn't know this because you're like, man, I'm not hungry.
[00:09:18]  I'll just have some carrots.
[00:09:21]  I don't mess with the popcorn butter, but I put a little squirt on.
[00:09:25]  Pause.
[00:09:25]  Just to see.
[00:09:27]  I did a little squirt, and it was this black goo under the light.
[00:09:31]  The goo had turned like a viscous, it was like from Fern Gully, the oil spilling all over my pocket.
[00:09:37]  Oh, that was cool.
[00:09:38]  Yeah, it was disgusting.
[00:09:40]  Yeah, it was horrifying.
[00:09:41]  I couldn't, I was like, I had to erase it from my memory so I could eat the popcorn.
[00:09:44]  Oh, it was horrible.
[00:09:45]  But I drank so much of the soda pop that I got the crazy zoomies for the rest of the night.
[00:09:50]  And I go out to dinner with the boys afterwards, and I'm just because I was so, and I was like, why am I like this?
[00:09:57]  I feel like I'm tweaking.
[00:09:58]  I look it up, and yeah, it's got caffeine in the diet in the Pepsi Zero.
[00:10:04]  Sure.
[00:10:04]  But in coaxing.
[00:10:05]  I could have told you that.
[00:10:06]  I should have asked, I guess.
[00:10:08]  But anyway, the guy in the front.
[00:10:10]  Yeah, the brother.
[00:10:10]  He was sleeping.
[00:10:12]  But then you were talking to him after.
[00:10:15]  He approached us after.
[00:10:16]  He was hanging around, and I was like, is this guy?
[00:10:19]  Is he a fan?
[00:10:20]  Does he recognize us?
[00:10:21]  You know, is he going to say hi?

=== Confronting Perpetrators (11:39) ===

[00:10:23]  But he, I don't think, knew who we were, but he just came over and he was like, what'd you guys think of the movie?
[00:10:27]  And then quickly revealed it was his third time seeing it, which really blew my mind.
[00:10:33]  He was wearing a godfather of the movie sweatshirt.
[00:10:36]  And so, but from that and from his general affect and from the fact that he said he'd been to this movie three times, I immediately clocked him as I'm like, you are like one of those autistic guys who goes on the subway all day, except for movies.
[00:10:48]  And we were kind of asking him, like, so like, what did you think of it?
[00:10:51]  And he's like, you know, like, he was like, he definitely gave his answers as someone who'd never seen the movie and was pretending like they had, even though we had just seen him in the movie theater.
[00:11:00]  But he was like, I thought it was like a documentary about like events.
[00:11:03]  And we're like, yeah, that's true.
[00:11:05]  He's like, I think it's important.
[00:11:06]  And we're like, you see it everywhere.
[00:11:08]  And yeah, we were like, why is it important?
[00:11:09]  He's like, you know, because you see it like in real life.
[00:11:11]  We're like, oh, like, oh, he's like actually talking about like the fact that some of this documentary takes place in New York.
[00:11:18]  He was cool, though.
[00:11:19]  I fucked with him.
[00:11:19]  And he also, he said, he was like, I saw another documentary that was kind of like the other side.
[00:11:23]  And I was like, what'd you think of that?
[00:11:25]  He's like, it was also, it was really important.
[00:11:27]  It's like, you know what?
[00:11:28]  I think I'd fucking rock with this dude.
[00:11:30]  I just cannot imagine seeing that movie more than once.
[00:11:33]  Well, sometimes the movie theater is a good place to nap in.
[00:11:36]  You know?
[00:11:37]  Almotivar or whatever your fucking name is.
[00:11:39]  I wish I could have done that during your movie.
[00:11:42]  But I would say this movie, in an honest opinion, real opinion, I would say I gave it one star out of 100.
[00:11:52]  Yeah, it's awful.
[00:11:53]  It sucked.
[00:11:54]  Even if I was, and I was trying to imagine myself as like a pro-Israel guy being like, let's see who these fucking jihadis on campus are up to today.
[00:12:02]  I'll tell you, I'd be bored stiff.
[00:12:03]  It's not just that it's boring.
[00:12:05]  It's like really grating and it really tests you when you're watching it because you're just like, surely you are not saying what I think you're saying.
[00:12:15]  And yet you are right there on the big screen saying some of the most egregious lies.
[00:12:21]  And my Menshe's.
[00:12:23]  All about my Menshees.
[00:12:25]  It's, yeah, it's just a really, it's a really tough watch.
[00:12:28]  I did not enjoy the experience, but I think we got a pretty good episode out of it.
[00:12:36]  Let's get to it Greetings My name, of course, you know it, you love it.
[00:12:54]  Baruch Hashem Emmanuel Goldstein Goldberg Platinum Berg Silverwitz Diamondstein Goldstein and of course Platinum Steen.
[00:13:04]  My family married around a lot.
[00:13:06]  Everyone kept their last names.
[00:13:07]  It was very progressive.
[00:13:08]  And here I am.
[00:13:10]  The other day, after getting over a seven-day bout with GERDS, which I lost, I want to make that clear.
[00:13:16]  I lost my battle, but I fought valiantly.
[00:13:19]  I decided perhaps I will treat myself by going to the motion pictures.
[00:13:25]  And, you know, I've been reading a lot in the New York Post about all these students at the schools and the things that are happening over in the Middle East, which of course is very frightening for me due to my skin conditions.
[00:13:36]  I can't be over there.
[00:13:37]  And I was like, I'm going to go to the movies and do I'm going to masturbate.
[00:13:44]  Do what they call gooning, something I read about in the New York Daily News.
[00:13:48]  And I go there and I buy a ticket to the cheapest show with the emptiest theater.
[00:13:52]  And I am provided with two hours of the worst bullshit I have ever seen in my life.
[00:13:57]  This film October 8th or October 8th.
[00:14:00]  It is unclear what the actual title of the film is because it does vary from the Wikipedia to the IMDb.
[00:14:05]  But behind me, I thought it was going to be completely alone.
[00:14:08]  But behind me was a group of six individuals of varied ethnicities, swarthiness, nationalities, etc.
[00:14:15]  Kicking the back of my seat to prevent me from Oninism.
[00:14:19]  And in fact, I left the theater completely unsatisfied at an entertainment level and of course, sexually ungratified.
[00:14:27]  I have brought on the show today to confront several of the perpetrators.
[00:14:32]  Particularly one of them is Dylan Saba from Palestine Legal.
[00:14:36]  Thank you so much for joining us and welcome back to Druinon.
[00:14:39]  Always a pleasure to be here.
[00:14:40]  It really trips me out when you switch from one to the next.
[00:14:43]  It's just like totally seamless.
[00:14:46]  It's all within me.
[00:14:47]  You really are.
[00:14:48]  You really do have multiples.
[00:14:50]  Dylan, was this your idea?
[00:14:54]  To see this movie?
[00:14:54]  I think it was.
[00:14:55]  No, it was your idea.
[00:14:58]  That doesn't sound right to me.
[00:15:01]  Although I did get excited seeing the preview for the film because I identified myself in one of the clips.
[00:15:07]  I thought we were going to see you in the movie.
[00:15:09]  I also thought that and was very tragically disappointed by the cutting room floor.
[00:15:15]  They cut it, unless it was one of the many minutes in which I was looking at my phone during the screening.
[00:15:21]  We, as a group, the four of us, Young Chomsky, Liz, Franzak, Dylan Saba, myself.
[00:15:28]  Why did you say it like that?
[00:15:29]  Well, it's just, you know, wasn't, doesn't one of these names kind of sound out of place?
[00:15:35]  You know, racially.
[00:15:37]  Our friends, Jake and Seamus, went and saw a movie at the Regal Union Square, 5.40 p.m., little post-matine, pre-evening show, called October 8th.
[00:15:49]  And that's not the reason we're doing this episode, but I think it's something we need to talk about at the top of this episode because we don't really do a lot of movie reviews on this show.
[00:15:58]  And I got to say, I don't see a lot of movies famously.
[00:16:02]  This was one of the, I'm just speaking purely objectively, one of the worst movies I've ever seen in my entire life.
[00:16:09]  I said the other day on the show that I'm a big slop watcher, that I watch slop.
[00:16:15]  In terms of like Netflix slash Hulu slash Max slash, I guess that's it.
[00:16:24]  Slop levels.
[00:16:25]  And like, you know, they're just pumping out these documentaries about whatever, like whatever the biggest news story is, they immediately got some documentary with some asshole and they're like, man, whatever, whatever, too.
[00:16:37]  Totally.
[00:16:38]  It is lower than that.
[00:16:41]  It is lower than whatever some, like all of these guys are pumping out to try to like beat the news cycle.
[00:16:49]  It is really poorly done.
[00:16:51]  I would say about 60 to 75% of the movie is just screenshots of Twitter or Instagram posts.
[00:17:00]  I'm going to have to agree with that.
[00:17:02]  I mean, what was your initial impression of the movie, Dylan?
[00:17:04]  Yeah, I agree.
[00:17:05]  I think it was poor, I would say.
[00:17:09]  Structurally, there was basically nothing happening.
[00:17:12]  It seemed like a constellation of various gripes and complaints that came directly off of the social media feeds.
[00:17:21]  Yes.
[00:17:21]  So it had the experience of being mad looking at your phone.
[00:17:26]  And then you're also in the film watching people be mad, literally looking at their devices.
[00:17:33]  And you can see their live reaction to them getting pissed off about Twitter beefs.
[00:17:37]  It could have just been called like my men cheese.
[00:17:39]  Yes.
[00:17:40]  Yes.
[00:17:42]  I thought it was an interesting like, I know this is overused now, meta commentary on being mad at looking at your phone.
[00:17:48]  Because correct.
[00:17:49]  I would say about 60%, and this is no exaggeration, 60% of the movie took place on social media.
[00:17:56]  And so, what they would do is they would show a Instagram from something called like Black Jewish Magic.
[00:18:02]  That was one of the show.
[00:18:04]  And of this woman explaining, like, actually, you know, you guys think you're intersectional, but there's black people in Israel.
[00:18:10]  And, you know, you're expecting, I mean, at least me, I mean, we've been watching this movie for an hour and a half.
[00:18:14]  I'm expecting, you know what?
[00:18:16]  This is me, what turns it around.
[00:18:17]  All of the Instagram comments they're about to show us are going to be people being like, this changes everything.
[00:18:21]  I had no idea.
[00:18:22]  Like, go crazy in Gaza.
[00:18:24]  I didn't know you had brothers in the house.
[00:18:26]  And yet it showed us negative comments from people.
[00:18:29]  And this was, and it would do this thing where it would be like, someone would like, it would be like a Deborah messing or whatever live stream.
[00:18:34]  And it would like have a video of the live stream.
[00:18:36]  And then it would just show all of the negative comments next to it.
[00:18:39]  And there wouldn't really be like any point to that, I guess I would say.
[00:18:44]  Like it was kind of just like, look how much abuse our beautiful influencers suffered.
[00:18:50]  Yeah, it left it like the implication for the reader was that it was, or the reader, the viewer, was that it was self-evidently a travesty that this propaganda wasn't landing.
[00:19:03]  And that was like fundamentally, I think, the main thrust of this film is them being like, we invested so much in all of this bullshit propaganda for the past 15 years.
[00:19:15]  Like we ran the whole pinkwashing thing.
[00:19:18]  We had this entire campaign.
[00:19:20]  We hired all of these influencers and it didn't hold up in the face of genocide.
[00:19:25]  Like that's literally what happened.
[00:19:26]  And they're like, what do you mean it didn't hold up?
[00:19:28]  Like why are you not like are you not entertained?
[00:19:31]  Like are you not persuaded by these like are all of the money we spent to convince you that Israel is gay friendly?
[00:19:37]  And so it like took the form of being like, oh, we're being anti-Semitically excluded from progressive spaces, which didn't land at all because it just like all they're all they end up doing is just gassing up the Palestine Solidarity movement of being like, but with like nefarious music playing behind.
[00:19:55]  It's just like they made inroads in all of these marginalized communities and built multiracial coalitions.
[00:20:01]  Like don't don't dunno.
[00:20:03]  Like stock music, like not even compelling, just like really cheesy, over-the-top fucking music library shit.
[00:20:10]  I think before we get too far ahead, we should explain exactly what this movie is because most likely no one has heard of it.
[00:20:17]  But this is a movie that starts off with footage from the October 7th attack and then immediately pivots to what was the response from everyone in basically the United States, right?
[00:20:32]  And around the world in different organizations.
[00:20:35]  And I would say that the directors find everyone's response wanting.
[00:20:40]  that it seemed that to them, what they present is that all major human rights organizations, including like whatever nonprofit to the UN.
[00:20:51]  And like yeah, Human Rights Watch.
[00:20:53]  They get a little like five minute segment in there.
[00:20:55]  To the universities, to the students at the universities, to the organizations at the universities, to the newspapers, to social media, to everything was one big triumphant celebration of Palestinians, right?
[00:21:11]  Yes.
[00:21:12]  And extremely, extremely anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, which is the same thing towards not just Israelis, but American Jews.
[00:21:21]  Yeah, you know, it's interesting because the first, one of the first shots in the movie is it's a the gay flag, the original one without the intersectional triangle and the circle.
[00:21:33]  Well, it was Israel flag mashed up with trans and pride flag.
[00:21:38]  Oh, yeah.
[00:21:38]  Like in front of like a burned out house.
[00:21:41]  Yeah, I was a little unclear on what was going on there, but I do think that that set the tone of like, we are this sort of like liberal nation.
[00:21:49]  We are this like light in the shadow.
[00:21:51]  We are mixing our ancient religion with the new religion of woke.
[00:21:55]  But you know, like we're mixing our ancient religion with like modern liberal democracy or whatever, and yet we are abandoned by the entire world.

=== Confused By Movie Names (02:43) ===

[00:22:02]  And one thing that I'm still confused by is the name of this movie.
[00:22:09]  So the movie I thought, and the movie which I failed to buy tickets for and had to have Liz do it for me, was October 8th.
[00:22:19]  But if you look at the Wikipedia, it's called October H8TE.
[00:22:24]  And then if you look at the IMDb, it's like October Hate, H-A-T-E, the fight for the soul of America.
[00:22:30]  But if you click on the Wikipedia, the movie's called October 8th within the Wikipedia.
[00:22:35]  And then when the movie, the title screen appeared, it said October Hate, and then the H-T-E faded out really quickly and we were left with the 8.
[00:22:43]  So I'm unclear on what this movie is called.
[00:22:45]  But it was made by a woman named Wendy Sachs and Deborah Messig.
[00:22:49]  Messing or Messing?
[00:22:50]  Messing.
[00:22:51]  Deborah Messing.
[00:22:53]  From Will and Grace.
[00:22:55]  Come on.
[00:22:56]  Oh, that show I love.
[00:22:59]  WG.
[00:23:00]  You'd have to love it to know it.
[00:23:01]  I don't know it.
[00:23:02]  I don't know it.
[00:23:03]  But it was an early kind of, it was like, it portrayed a gay couple.
[00:23:06]  Will and Grace.
[00:23:07]  No, that's a.
[00:23:09]  Well, there you go.
[00:23:10]  That's the middle of the show.
[00:23:12]  I just, I want to read from Wendy's 40 under 40 profile real quick.
[00:23:16]  So 40 under 40, in case you don't know, is you pay the magazine Forbes and then you write a paragraph about yourself and they put it on your website.
[00:23:22]  And then your chances of going to jail go up like 50%.
[00:23:25]  So Wendy lives in South Orange, New Jersey.
[00:23:28]  She's a serial disrupter and full-time hustler, having started as a Capitol Hill press secretary, moved on to become an Emmy Award-winning TV news producer who worked at Dateline, NBC, blah, blah, blah, and evolved in the PR and content and media strategy.
[00:23:41]  She's the author of Fearless and Free, How Smart Women Pivot and Relaunch Their Careers, and how she really does it.
[00:23:46]  The Secrets of Successful Stay-at-Home Work Moms.
[00:23:50]  She made a movie in 2020 called Surge about three Democratic women running for office, which was filmed, I found, by three female cinematographers in order to give it, and I quote, a female gaze, literally a female gaze.
[00:24:09]  This movie, I think, cannot be separated from the release of No Other Land.
[00:24:15]  In all of the press material I read for this, in all of the like op-eds in support of it that were clearly actually paid to be placed in like Times of Israel, et cetera, the movie No Other Land, which I did not see, but which I've heard is very good, is mentioned in a sort of negative way.
[00:24:34]  And in fact, in this almost inversion of the classic trope of like Jews control Hollywood, it's in fact anti-Semites control Hollywood and have given this other movie pride of place.

=== Anti-Semitic Control Of Hollywood (02:14) ===

[00:24:46]  And we are not like that movie should be our movie.
[00:24:49]  It's almost like it's pathetic, actually.
[00:24:54]  It was funny.
[00:24:55]  I was reading something in the Hollywood Reporter that was just like from last week or something.
[00:25:00]  And it was about October 8th, which is like obviously is not in many theaters, right?
[00:25:06]  And I'm sure it will be on every streaming platform by the time this comes out.
[00:25:09]  I don't think it had a very wide release.
[00:25:11]  It wasn't, there was not that many people in the theater, but there were some and we should talk about them.
[00:25:17]  But in the piece, explicitly, it's like, oh, you know, are these, you know, one is, you know, one faction is October 8th and the other faction is No Other Land.
[00:25:28]  And like, who will the American consumer vote for with their pocketbook or whatever was like basically the tone of the thing?
[00:25:35]  And I just, you know, it's really funny because it's not funny at all, but like famously, No Other Land could not get distribution in the United States because of the content of the film.
[00:25:46]  And it was just after it won the Oscar for the best documentary.
[00:25:50]  And then when one of his, you know, one of the filmmakers was literally just kidnapped in the West Bank, one of the theaters that was showing it in Florida, it was threatened to be shut down by the government for just showing the movie.
[00:26:07]  And so it's such a completely twisted narrative, you know, that these two, like we're having some like Barbenheimer, like, like fucking, like, you know, who are you?
[00:26:21]  Who do you stand with with these two films?
[00:26:24]  But it's so illustrative of like how of like the point of view of this film and then the actual reality on the ground with no other land.
[00:26:33]  Yeah, I mean, it's like part and parcel, the Zionist, every accusation is a self-accusation phenomenon.
[00:26:42]  But it's, I mean, it's both, yes, I think trying to ride the media moment of no other land and like attach itself in that way to get attention.
[00:26:50]  And also, yeah, just making the, you know, making the kind of inverse accusations of like, we are being conspired against, our voice is being suppressed.

=== UC Santa Barbara Drama (06:11) ===

[00:27:00]  Oh, no, we can only get these bizarro famous people to participate.
[00:27:06]  You know, how come like all of the A-listers are not lining up to make this ridiculous movie?
[00:27:10]  And then there's also like, yeah, as you say, on the level of substance, it's the same dynamic, right?
[00:27:17]  Like one of the main plot lines in this extremely tedious film is it follows a student body president.
[00:27:26]  I love her.
[00:27:26]  Adami, I don't.
[00:27:29]  At UC Santa Barbara.
[00:27:32]  And the whole like sympathy play of the plot line is that people were upset at her for putting out a pro-Israel statement.
[00:27:42]  And the drama culminates in there is some backlash among her constituency.
[00:27:49]  There ends up being a vote on whether or not she should be recalled.
[00:27:53]  She survives the vote and retains her position.
[00:27:58]  Like really, basically, no harm, no foul.
[00:28:00]  Meanwhile, Palestinian students and student organizations and elected student body leaders are being punished with student conduct processes, suspended, expelled, job losses for just endorsing the basic fact of Palestinian humanity.
[00:28:20]  Blacklisted, kidnapped by DHS.
[00:28:24]  I mean, it goes on.
[00:28:25]  I actually, we had a caller or a messenger actually about the woman from UC Santa Barbara who you're talking about with the worst, I would say of all the boring plot lines in this movie, that one was a fucking snooze.
[00:28:39]  That's really bad.
[00:28:40]  The same day, this is from a student, this is from someone who actually knows her.
[00:28:45]  The literal same day she filed a lawsuit, she was on campus doing a photo shoot for the Israel-themed clothing line.
[00:28:50]  She immediately started shilling as soon as Michael Rappaport started cross-posting her selfies.
[00:28:57]  And that lawsuit that she's referring to there is the lawsuit.
[00:29:01]  So the student body president, and she talks about this in the film, the anti-Semitism on UC Santa Barbara campus was so outrageous on literally October, starting on October 8th, that she could no longer attend school.
[00:29:14]  And so she filed a lawsuit against the school saying they were violating her civil rights, blah, And then on the same day she files a lawsuit, she's there, you know, posing for these clothes that she's selling.
[00:29:25]  You know, it's, I found it so the movie was strange because it really, it had like a real rogues gallery of every single person that is like a pro-Israel influencer.
[00:29:38]  I mean, we're talking Barry Weiss.
[00:29:41]  Let's boom.
[00:29:42]  Boom.
[00:29:43]  Barry Weiss.
[00:29:44]  We're talking Richie Torres.
[00:29:45]  We're talking fucking that Jonathan Shenzhen from fucking Shenzhen from fucking Foundation of Defense and Democracies.
[00:29:53]  We're talking Shai Davidai.
[00:29:55]  Shai Davidai.
[00:29:56]  I mean, oh my God.
[00:29:57]  Let me tell you, when I saw Shai Davidai, and ladies and gentlemen, his first appearance in this film of many, I feel like he was one of the interviews they like, they really, they didn't cut much of his out.
[00:30:07]  Like some people, Blake Flayton, for instance, in his little accent, I can't say the word, but you know what I mean.
[00:30:13]  And if I was that, I could say it.
[00:30:15]  But in his little accent, he's saying like, DEI is bad.
[00:30:19]  And then that's all they have from Blake Flayton.
[00:30:22]  Shy Davidai is in there about half the movie.
[00:30:25]  And the first thing we see, he is given an iPad.
[00:30:28]  They do the last dance move where they have him like sit there and watch his footage of his own like battle of him like doing his own protest at Columbia.
[00:30:37]  Shai Davidai is given an iPad and just like he watches his own Instagram videos for a while.
[00:30:43]  It's interesting.
[00:30:44]  Columbia, and we're going to talk about this more in the episode a little bit after the movie, but Columbia is such a prominent focus of this movie.
[00:30:53]  I mean, we have the UC Santa Barbara sort of like subplot that happens within it, but really so much of it happens in Columbia.
[00:31:01]  And so much of the focus is exactly the stuff that you've sort of seen play out in the news or whatever.
[00:31:05]  You know, you had the encampments and then you had sort of it culminating in the Heinz Hall takeover.
[00:31:11]  And then that was kind of it.
[00:31:14]  And then like the sort of interrogations in front of Congress of the university presidents.
[00:31:20]  But it was almost like a it was strange.
[00:31:24]  This movie was structured like it was like October 7th happens and then October 8th happens and like, oh, here's this protest.
[00:31:30]  Here's this protest.
[00:31:30]  And all they're doing is basically reposting viral videos.
[00:31:34]  Like I think there's that one of Eugene Currier or something talking about October 7th.
[00:31:38]  And then like over.
[00:31:40]  I suppose we didn't get the vibes essays.
[00:31:43]  No, that was there.
[00:31:44]  Oh, I missed this.
[00:31:46]  I had my hand in the popcorn.
[00:31:48]  Everything, everything, everything.
[00:31:51]  Everything made an appearance.
[00:31:52]  They definitely had the, you know, what do you think decolonization is?
[00:31:55]  Vibes, essays, et cetera.
[00:31:57]  Again, listeners, 60% of this movie was some, like the visual effects of this movie was some highlighting a tweet.
[00:32:04]  And usually by some account called like UK Steve or something, like a totally anonymous, low follower accounts.
[00:32:11]  I mean, there was some, interestingly, because Twitter shows the view counts on tweets now.
[00:32:16]  And there were some tweets that they showed in this that had like four views on it.
[00:32:21]  Like it was clearly someone had either tweeted this themselves and like put it in the movie or searched for like the specific combination of words to screenshot it.
[00:32:28]  Yeah.
[00:32:29]  It was strange.
[00:32:30]  Before we move on from the UC Santa Barbara girl, because I do want to mention that one of the like hardships that she faced, and this was so, it was just so telling, is that like there's a whole, there's a whole like plot line about how, you know, in the days after she, you know, was on campus and there was a sign outside of the multi-purpose room or whatever that said, no Zionists.
[00:32:53]  And she was like, I can't believe that I could face this sort of harassment.
[00:32:59]  But like me and my friends, we went inside and we wrote other signs.
[00:33:03]  And by signs, I mean literally like Xerox paper that they just wrote like, yes, Zionists, like exclamation point, and then taped up on the wall.

=== Existential Panic Over Occupation (15:34) ===

[00:33:12]  Like this is the drama that we're talking about here.
[00:33:15]  And it was making me feel crazy to watch that.
[00:33:20]  And then like cut to, you know, Barry Weiss talking about how, you know, she couldn't understand because when she was, you know, she's like, I was supposed, I am the model progressive.
[00:33:32]  I'm gay.
[00:33:33]  I believe in abortion.
[00:33:35]  But like all of the progressive organizations want to cut me out because I'm a Jew.
[00:33:40]  And then like, and this is like kind of the level of argumentation that we're dealing with.
[00:33:45]  Yeah.
[00:33:45]  And they, and they, you know, of course, are trying to relitigate like the 2017 Women's March.
[00:33:51]  Yeah, so like really like forgotten about that.
[00:33:53]  Totally old stuff.
[00:33:54]  But I actually want to return to the title of the film because I think it is, I think it's kind of telling in terms of like what they are trying to avoid.
[00:34:00]  Which title of the film?
[00:34:02]  October 8th.
[00:34:03]  Or October 8th.
[00:34:05]  October 8th.
[00:34:07]  I like hate.
[00:34:09]  It is hate.
[00:34:11]  But yes.
[00:34:13]  So, I mean, I think fundamentally, like what they are trying to do on a narrative level is to say that everything that happened after October 7th in the United States was actually a continuation of October 7th.
[00:34:29]  Yes.
[00:34:29]  So there was a, and, and it has the dual function too, of saying, all, we're calling every, all of this advocacy.
[00:34:36]  We are calling anti-Semitism and we are calling it a continuation of the October 7th attack.
[00:34:41]  And what that does is this like two, this kind of like two-pronged thing that it does.
[00:34:46]  The first is to say we are under a terrorist attack, right?
[00:34:50]  It's to say like the panic that we are exhibiting is because there is a like physical threat to our safety, even though like we're watching them experience a psychic threat to their worldview.
[00:35:04]  Right.
[00:35:04]  Like this is actually what we're seeing play out is people feeling existential panic over the, you know, people questioning and challenging very fundamental political premises that they hold dear, which are based around the continuation of the occupation of demographic exclusion of Palestinians, et cetera.
[00:35:24]  So they want to say we are being attacked by terrorists, but they also, also the other side of the construction is they want to say October 7th was an act of anti-Semitism, right?
[00:35:37]  So we're calling all of this stuff, all of this like anti-Semitic rhetoric, we are calling it continuation of the October 7th attack.
[00:35:44]  And we are kind of going back and saying there are no non-anti-Semitic reasons that October 7th may have happened, right?
[00:35:52]  So there's no, obviously, there's no acknowledgement of the siege of Gaza.
[00:35:57]  There's certainly no acknowledgement of the genocide that happens.
[00:35:59]  I mean, there's very minimal acknowledgement of even the fact that there is a war that's ongoing.
[00:36:04]  But it serves to like, on the one hand, try to like paint October 7th as an attack motivated exclusively by anti-religious sentiment, racism, what have you, and also say we are being attacked by terrorists, these various students.
[00:36:22]  And they quite literally, I mean, quite literally, literally, they literalize that by saying, and all of these student organizations are legitimately funded by Hamas.
[00:36:34]  Like they, I mean, that is like a big core of the argument that takes place in the documentary.
[00:36:38]  And the other point, I think, too, to what Dylan's saying is that they said both October 7th and then everything after is also itself a continuation of the Holocaust.
[00:36:46]  Like really, literally, like they show you footage of like gas chambers and dead bodies.
[00:36:50]  And they're like, all of this is there's a straight line from the Holocaust to these students on campus.
[00:36:56]  I think if people have seen viral clips of this, then maybe they saw Cheryl Samberg from Lean In Fame and what was she, CFO?
[00:37:07]  I think she was CEO of Meta.
[00:37:09]  Or CEO?
[00:37:10]  She was some.
[00:37:12]  I don't know what's a high up.
[00:37:13]  Yes, what her title was exactly.
[00:37:15]  Ober Sturpenfuhr.
[00:37:18]  You know, there's a, towards the end of the film, she gives a very like teary monologue about how in the wake of October 7th, she had to, and, but really, it's in the wake of October 8th, right?
[00:37:30]  It's in the wake of seeing these waves of what she says the rise of anti-Semitic violence and all of this, all of these protests on student campuses, and but more importantly, seeing that nobody was doing anything to stop the students, that she then she says, I was on a walk.
[00:37:47]  So I'm imagining she's in Atherton or, you know, in fucking, I don't know where.
[00:37:53]  In some like insane pre-fire palisades.
[00:37:56]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, pre-fire palisades or some insane like raised Babylonian hanging guardian.
[00:38:01]  Oh, totally.
[00:38:03]  Just like literally going on a walk around her, you know, like fenced in neighborhood with her friend.
[00:38:12]  And she says that, I turned to her and I asked, will you hide me?
[00:38:18]  Which is a fucking crazy thing to hear on so many levels by not just the like lean and feminist of CEO of Facebook, but also in the wake of everything that's been going on where we're watching just like weeks,
[00:38:34]  you know, every week there's a new story of a, you know, a student being taken by DHS on this, you know, off the street because of, you know, signing on to an op-ed that was criticizing Israel, criticizing a foreign government, or for signing on to something or, you know, or for just being at one of these protests.
[00:38:56]  They're literally being disappeared.
[00:38:58]  They cannot be hidden.
[00:38:59]  And you are hiding some of them.
[00:39:01]  No, like, yes.
[00:39:02]  Yes.
[00:39:02]  And you have Cheryl Sandberg saying that.
[00:39:04]  I mean, just that kind of dissonance, which we have seen over the past two years, right?
[00:39:11]  Like we've seen that over and over and over again.
[00:39:14]  But to see it on screen like that so explicitly was, I mean, it was like too much for me to take.
[00:39:22]  Yeah, it's nauseating.
[00:39:23]  And especially because she follows up that her like own persecution fantasy by saying, do I think that's really going to happen in America?
[00:39:35]  No.
[00:39:35]  And like that line is what resonates with me as I'm like watching it happen.
[00:39:40]  In America, yeah.
[00:39:41]  Absolutely.
[00:39:42]  Like all of these videos of people being, yeah, like, you know.
[00:39:45]  The fantasy part, I think, is a real, what a fucking thing.
[00:39:50]  I mean, I think you could almost read like half of this movie as a fantasy movie because it really is.
[00:39:54]  So much of this is like, there was this, there's been this sort of play acting and persecution in the wake of October 7th.
[00:40:02]  I mean, the reality is, is like, yes, there have been large protests at points in solidarity with Palestinians.
[00:40:09]  The vast, overwhelming majority, enough to make like the amount of politicians or public office holders who actually support Palestinians into essentially like a statistically insignificant minority.
[00:40:21]  Like the vast, vast majority of the government, businesses, everyone not only supports Israel, but like supports them to the hilt in a way that like we support no other nation on earth.
[00:40:35]  And there has been on the flip side, as this happened, I'm sure everybody listening to the show has realized this at some point.
[00:40:42]  But like you've seen both this incredible full-throated support to the hilt, Ukraine style, more so than Ukraine style support.
[00:40:52]  And then the way it's talked about, it's that they are, you know, they're hunting us Yehudis in the street.
[00:40:58]  I mean, they're chasing after us.
[00:41:00]  We're not safe on the campuses on our beautiful Ivy League campuses.
[00:41:03]  We're not safe in Midtown New York.
[00:41:06]  I'm not really sure.
[00:41:07]  Purpose rooms aren't even safe.
[00:41:08]  But it's, but I mean, it's true.
[00:41:10]  Like, listen, I mean, I have talked to numerous people that I'm friends with who, you know, come from families that are, you know, not psycho, like connected to Jewish organizations, but are pretty mainline Jews in America.
[00:41:23]  And people are like, are you going to ride the subway in New York?
[00:41:26]  Like, are you fucking kidding me?
[00:41:27]  I've heard Hamas might like fucking gas it.
[00:41:29]  I mean, no, it's fucking crazy.
[00:41:31]  Like, it's, it's this, it is this, it is almost like, you know, this desire, this, this weird, perverse obsession.
[00:41:40]  And like, I mean, this is, you know, I've talked about in the show before that, like, you know, and by the way, Dylan's a guest.
[00:41:44]  He doesn't, he's not co-signing essay necessarily here.
[00:41:46]  But like, this is kind of what I think of as like the Holocaust Judaism, where like all of it revolves around that.
[00:41:50]  And like Judaism itself doesn't matter.
[00:41:52]  It's like the Holocaust is what matters.
[00:41:54]  Like the Holocaust is, like a, there's a permanent Holocaust that's ongoing.
[00:42:00]  And so in a way, I think it's very edifying for a lot of these people to be to connect it in this way, in this like visual way to like, look, you know, you have this, this, this, and this, and then look, you have these images of the camps.
[00:42:10]  And it's like, well, you know, anybody who has a cursory knowledge of history would be like, well, I don't think that's exactly really what's happening here.
[00:42:17]  First of all, you flatten Gaza.
[00:42:19]  You know, you're shooting people and fucking throwing them into fucking, you know, unmarked graves and then bulldozing the remains, you know, tens and tens and tens of thousands of dead, not to mention the missing and uncounted dead.
[00:42:31]  And I'm just like, well, I'm not really sure that I don't remember this happening.
[00:42:35]  I don't remember this happening to the Jews during the Holocaust.
[00:42:38]  And it's just, to me, the movie was like, it was, it was, I could not really understand the audience for it until a lot of the sort of plot line started congealing into, and we're going to talk about this in a moment, but like into this narrative that is kind of now, I mean, it's been under construction for a long time, but is now like cohering with state support, the United States support into like a legal narrative.
[00:43:04]  Yeah.
[00:43:04]  And that's what I want to, I want to get there because it's really important because we talked about the kind of ground level or like, you know, the psychological construction that this film is like playing into on the level of the audience, right?
[00:43:18]  So you have people, pro-Israel people who have this, I think, authentically held panic about, you know, their fears of the pro-Palestine movement,
[00:43:33]  I believe, are not genuinely fears for physical safety, but it kind of like a psychic harm that's being experienced as their position is like the hegemony of their position is like perceived to be fading, right?
[00:43:49]  And like this, the film actually states it pretty clearly.
[00:43:53]  So like they lay out in the film that what they're most worried about is the ideology of young people.
[00:44:01]  Yes.
[00:44:01]  Because they say like, you know, basically they admit like we may have, we may be holding the cards now in terms of the balance of geopolitical forces, but it looks like things are trending in a bad direction.
[00:44:14]  That's the threat posed by all of these young people saying free Palestine, right?
[00:44:19]  And especially young people being, sorry if I just didn't run for a second, especially, I think this is where a lot of the focus in the Ives come from, is this new generation of elites is being sort of indoctrinated to this anti-Israel sentiment.
[00:44:31]  Yeah.
[00:44:31]  So you have like, I mean, I think part of the, yeah, part of the panic around college campuses is this marriage of that specific panic with respect to the Zionist movement of being like, oh shit, the young, there's this huge generational split and we're losing long-term prospect at support, mixed with a pre-existing like libidinal obsession with college campuses that is just in elite media and also the right-wing panic around critical race theory.
[00:45:01]  And I think all of those have like dovetailed together to produce this moment.
[00:45:07]  So we're talking about the, okay, so like there is this like kind of pre-existing psychological profile for someone who might consume a film like this.
[00:45:17]  But there is also, Brace, as you're saying, the kind of top-down narrative construction.
[00:45:22]  And that's where things get really insidious here.
[00:45:24]  We mentioned that the film tries to push this totally false narrative or story that there is, you know, that there are connections, material or otherwise, between Palestinian resistance groups on the ground and the people who are protesting against genocide in their institutions and in their communities.
[00:45:44]  And the last time I was on this show, we talked about the kind of long history of that, of the criminalization of Palestine solidarity and attempts to use terrorism statutes, immigration law, and other legal avenues to criminalize expressing support for Palestine.
[00:46:04]  So I think what we're seeing now and what was signaled by, for example, Project Esther is advancing that program, right?
[00:46:16]  So, and they are very clearly trying to do that in this film.
[00:46:19]  So they start to kind of map out a web of connections that is familiar because it is the same bullshit that is showing up in various civil lawsuits that are being brought against people in the Palestine space and organizations for allegedly aiding and abetting acts of international terrorism, i.e. October 7th.
[00:46:45]  If you were somebody who is listening to the show and you were present at a college protest, or if you're a member of JVP or SJP, which are the two kind of main organizations that are named and come under sort of constant fire within this documentary,
[00:46:59]  the documentary very plainly states multiple times in a narrative that is the only thing that kind of holds throughout the entire film that you are a tool of the IRGC in Iran and the Iranian state via Hamas, via National Students for Justice in Palestine, disseminated out to you as students.
[00:47:22]  And you are part of a nexus that includes Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS for some reason.
[00:47:29]  Like they didn't really mention the Houthis, but they were like, yeah, and Iran's also funding ISIS in Syrian Iraq.
[00:47:34]  And also it showed ISIS as a controller all of Syrian Iraq, which I'm not quite sure that's true.
[00:47:40]  But it makes it very plain that, and they, that doesn't make it plain, but rather it makes their opinion plain that these students are willing or unwilling,
[00:47:53]  but nevertheless dupes of these foreign terrorist organizations that are very explicitly and in a very planned out way that they've been planning since the early 2000s to disseminate or to start a new front in the war against Israel on college campuses using these useful idiots.
[00:48:14]  And, you know, the narrative sounds so goofy when you're in the movie theater, right?
[00:48:17]  Like, it's like, okay, this is shit that like, you know, maybe your fucking grandma believes or something.
[00:48:22]  Not even in Bush's wildest dreams could he have like come up with this.
[00:48:27]  Exactly.
[00:48:27]  But, but, you know, there are these lawsuits that are coming out right now.
[00:48:32]  And, you know, maybe we can't talk about specifics, or you can't talk about specifics, but I'm going to talk about a couple specifics.
[00:48:39]  One of these, there's a number of lawsuits that are all kind of saying the same thing and all about kind of the same people.

=== Amendments Under Siege (12:49) ===

[00:48:46]  Famously, there's one that was recently filed against like Columbia.
[00:48:50]  I think it's JVP, particularly one guy involved in JVP within Our Lifetimes and Columbia SJP.
[00:48:58]  And I think it's also maybe Hamas is like might be a co-defendant in it or two.
[00:49:02]  I'm not really sure.
[00:49:03]  But it is brought forth by a number of John and Jane Does, some of whom talk about how they had to, you know, when October 7th happened, they went and fought in Gaza and they returned back and they saw all these protesters and it psychically damaged them.
[00:49:19]  There's a guy who says he was in a, he went as a hostage, he was a hostage and he says that Hamas at one point showed him on their phone.
[00:49:27]  It's like, hey, check it out.
[00:49:28]  Like, you know, Columbia, that school that we all love here in Gaza, they're doing our bidding and they're protesting.
[00:49:35]  They want you to die, which, you know, listen, I've never taught anyone Hamas.
[00:49:39]  I don't know anyone in Hamas.
[00:49:40]  I've never interacted with anyone in Hamas, but I'm just using kind of, I mean, Mr. Logic, you know?
[00:49:44]  And Mr. Logic says, I don't believe, I think you might be fibbing a little bit.
[00:49:48]  But there's all these sort of like interested parties, these interested parties who are suing a number of groups in Colombia.
[00:49:56]  And one of the facets of the lawsuit, and this is how listeners might have heard of it, that sort of was the most newsworthy is that they are alleging upon information and belief that Colombia's Students for Justice in Palestine had communications with the group Hamas in Gaza prior to the attacks on October 7th.
[00:50:20]  And Hamas was like, yo, get ready to post some Instagram stories.
[00:50:26]  Like that, it is really basically like, that is what the evidence hinges on is that like their Instagram reactivated at some point, but they might actually have the date wrong.
[00:50:34]  So it might actually have reactivated the next day, but you know, who's counting?
[00:50:39]  Obviously, very, it's like the flimsiest of flimsy.
[00:50:43]  But, you know, it's sort of shocking to read, and especially because the sort of big law firms are the people behind, or like the lawyers that are, you know, kind of crafting these lawsuits.
[00:50:55]  And I thought it was just so silly.
[00:50:56]  It's like one of those crackhead lawsuits that you see sometimes.
[00:50:58]  It's some pro se bullshit, as we call it in the business.
[00:51:02]  But what is the reason for this?
[00:51:04]  Like, why are all these lawsuits happening right now?
[00:51:07]  Yeah, so there's really two things to say here.
[00:51:10]  One is that these are totally baseless lawsuits that are trying to scare people.
[00:51:17]  Like the purpose of them is to raise the cost of engaging in pro-Palestine advocacy because they know that they can outgun anyone legally, right?
[00:51:30]  So they can have a lot more legal resources to throw at some stupid lawsuit, even if it's not going to go anywhere, than the movement groups and individuals have to defend against them.
[00:51:42]  So it is really like a form of bullying in that regard and an attempt to smear the names of these individuals, the student groups, pressure people to universities to take actions against them, maybe third parties, what have you.
[00:52:01]  So that's the main thing.
[00:52:04]  It really is just trying to scare people and suppress this form of political expression.
[00:52:11]  Because fundamentally, what's obvious to people like us and most people in the United States is that the reason why people are protesting is because there is a genocide happening that our government is funding and supporting.
[00:52:23]  And they make a huge hit, they make huge hay about how these protests started on October 8th.
[00:52:30]  Well, the slaughtering of Palestinians started on October 7th, right?
[00:52:34]  By the time October 7th, the day itself was done, Palestinians were already being bombed.
[00:52:40]  So, I mean, I remember I was at those, you know, I was at an October 8th action.
[00:52:45]  So were me and Jaron Chompsy one-to-one.
[00:52:47]  Yeah, I mean, everyone could see what was coming and everyone could see what was already happening.
[00:52:53]  And already at those protests, there were counter protesters that were putting phones in my face that had a parking lot on it and being like, this is what we're going to do to Gaza.
[00:53:02]  So the idea that, one, the idea that there was any like that people reacted too quickly and that was somehow suspicious is totally ridiculous.
[00:53:13]  But two, the purpose of the movie, the purpose of the lawsuits, the purpose of this entire PR operation that they have underway is to distract from what everyone is consuming very, very directly, which is the evidence of massive, massive atrocities, war crimes, and genocide.
[00:53:33]  So that's the first thing.
[00:53:34]  The second thing is that this is part of the same coordinated push that we've been talking about and that we talked about the last time that I was on this show.
[00:53:44]  They really do want to use existing terrorism statutes to get around the First Amendment.
[00:53:52]  Because as we've just identified, the issue that they have is with political advocacy and political speech, right?
[00:53:58]  It's people taking the streets and exercising dissent against their government's policy.
[00:54:02]  That is squarely what the First Amendment is meant to protect.
[00:54:05]  So if you're going to go around the First Amendment, which they have now very clearly done in the case of immigration, because they are taking advantage of the wide range of authority that courts have bestowed the executive in the cases of immigration, they are getting around, they are attempting to get around the First Amendment that way by going after the people who are most vulnerable in this situation, which is non-citizens, and basically just denying their First Amendment rights and their due process rights.
[00:54:34]  Now, for citizens, right, they can't quite do that, or at least not yet.
[00:54:40]  They haven't tried to do that yet.
[00:54:43]  But they are trying to take advantage of the leeway the executive has been given by courts in the realm of national security in terms of designations, in terms of going after quote-unquote terrorists.
[00:54:56]  So what these civil lawsuits are trying to do is seed this narrative, and they're seeding it in lawsuits, they're seeding it in the media, they're seeding it in this film.
[00:55:06]  They are trying to seed this narrative such that in their hopes of hopes, some prosecutor is willing to pick it up and bring some baseless actual criminal charges against people.
[00:55:18]  That should not happen because what they're alleging is totally false.
[00:55:25]  But that's what they're trying to do.
[00:55:27]  So two questions.
[00:55:29]  One, maybe we can, for our listeners who haven't listened to our prior episodes, maybe they're just tuning in for the first time.
[00:55:37]  Can we talk a little, or can I ask you to talk a little bit more about how like some of the leeway that the executive has in terms of, you know, Hamas is designated an FTO and what that then gives them, you know, what sort of overreach or wide reach that that gives the executive in terms of trying to bypass certain kind of speech acts, right?
[00:56:04]  But also, or maybe we'll just start there first and then I'll come back in.
[00:56:09]  Yeah, so the purpose of the sanctions regime in terms of thinking about the authority that the Treasury has to sanction individuals and groups and the State Department has in terms of designating groups as foreign, designated foreign terrorist organizations, which are separate, but I think it's like kind of worth lumping them together because they operate somewhat similarly, is to make those individuals toxic.
[00:56:34]  That is like the stated intent of like why the statutes are structured the way they are and what they are seeking to prohibit.
[00:56:42]  So what that means is it becomes more risky to associate with individuals and groups that have been designated by the Department of Treasury and by the State Department as being terrorists.
[00:56:57]  And those agencies have like, it's basically who they say count as terrorists, right?
[00:57:05]  Because, you know, there's not even any kind of like philosophically or otherwise agreed definition of what those terms mean, right?
[00:57:12]  So it is really just a government designation.
[00:57:16]  And the Supreme Court has said in a case called Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project, which came down in 2010, that activity that would otherwise be protected by political activity and organizing that would otherwise be protected by the First Amendment becomes prohibited if it is done in coordination with one of these designated groups.
[00:57:45]  That was the PKK in that one, I think.
[00:57:47]  It was the, yes, yeah.
[00:57:49]  And the Tamil Tigers.
[00:57:50]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:57:51]  And so, I mean, one thing that I see like so frequently now, it seems to have kind of grown.
[00:57:57]  Like it was a kind of clumsy message that has seemed to sort of been honed, especially in recent months, especially after Trump took office, is a lot of these pro-Israel sort of types.
[00:58:07]  I mean, and there really are just like, it's the same people in this documentary and the same organizations that back them as exist like on the internet as exists.
[00:58:16]  I mean, it's all the same people, Barry Weiss, Douglas Murray, all these kind of people.
[00:58:20]  But then organizations as well, like APAC and Batar, et cetera, or not APAC, excuse me, but also APAC, ADL, I mean, really like focusing on like these students are not just like useful idiots for Hamas or whatever.
[00:58:35]  They're actually directly disseminating Hamas propaganda.
[00:58:38]  And so, like, at that point, their speech isn't really speech.
[00:58:41]  They're essentially acting as like freelance members of an FTO.
[00:58:45]  And so, that's like something that material support.
[00:58:48]  Material support.
[00:58:49]  And so, like, that's something in the case of Mahmoud Khalil, for example.
[00:58:52]  I don't know how much you can comment in like individual case or whatever, but I think in that, one of the things that surprised a lot of people is, you know, you have Rubio coming out and saying, like, this is actually a matter of national security.
[00:59:02]  And so, he's talking about this in almost the same way that you're talking about some terrorist or again, you know, rather sort of loose appellation there, but like, you know, like a gunman or a fighter or even, you know, a propagandist for a terrorist organization, you know, is talked about.
[00:59:21]  But instead, this is actually just like the spokesman, seemingly like rather mild-mannered spokesman of a college group.
[00:59:29]  And yeah, so I want to clarify something because it gets a little confusing.
[00:59:34]  So when the State Department is saying that they have the authority to remove someone for national security reasons, that's actually different than the criminal statute prohibiting material support for terrorism.
[00:59:48]  And it's different than the civil statute saying that you can win a financial award if you've been harmed and you can credibly accuse someone of aiding and abetting a terrorist act.
[00:59:58]  It's a different category entirely, and that is- What?
[01:00:02]  Yeah.
[01:00:02]  Yes.
[01:00:03]  Because immigration law is separate than criminal law and this tort statute.
[01:00:10]  And that is an authority that was created separately under this rarely used provision in immigration law, the INA from 1952.
[01:00:22]  And that says that, or what the State Department is saying is that they have the authority under that law to just say that someone is expressing support for terrorists, right?
[01:00:38]  And then remove that person or deny that person's.
[01:00:41]  Whether they're on a visa or a green card.
[01:00:44]  Right.
[01:00:45]  So that's what they're claiming, which is unconstitutional and is being challenged, obviously, in these individual cases.
[01:00:56]  That's different, though, than receiving a designation from the State Department or from the Department of Treasury.
[01:01:04]  That is just the Secretary of State plucking people out, basically, and saying, you, you're gone, right?
[01:01:14]  And I think it's important to emphasize that because it demonstrates kind of what's happening right now, which is that this is actually quite a bespoke operation going on.
[01:01:25]  Like even in the press conferences, you have Rubio talking about like, oh, we've done hundreds of these.
[01:01:32]  I've revoked hundreds of visas.
[01:01:33]  That's not that many.

=== Bespoke Operation Jurisdictional Issues (03:36) ===

[01:01:36]  I mean, like, it is obviously a lot.
[01:01:38]  It's not as if they were just like, oh, here's a list.
[01:01:40]  Like, the computer pulled out a massive list of all of these, you know, they found all these discrepancies in one app in this, you know, one part of this application.
[01:01:49]  All these people forgot to check this one box where it's sort of the kind of like the system like sucked up these people.
[01:01:56]  It's not that.
[01:01:57]  No.
[01:01:57]  It's like there was probably a list that was given to them of people, of names, and they have gone and plucked them out, like you say.
[01:02:06]  And we don't know like what other systems are coming online, right?
[01:02:11]  So there are likely other dragnets that are being set up or that are being rolled out.
[01:02:16]  But what we know right now is that it seems to be coming from these third-party vigilante groups that are creating the D port lists and sending them on to the Secretary of State, who is then invoking this authority under this statute to say, to, yeah, to basically one by one deny people's visas and status.
[01:02:42]  Yeah, I mean, that I think to me is what's so extraordinary about the current moment.
[01:02:47]  And like something that even though I know a lot about the players involved, and I've been following this very closely since they started it, and we covered this in an episode we did like, what, like a week or two ago, the Ice Age one.
[01:03:00]  But it is really, it's insane that these sort of fringe groups, well, fringe, I guess, no longer, but these like groups of psychos are essentially like compiling lists of students with political views that they deem anti-Israel and giving those to the government.
[01:03:17]  And the government is like, all right, say no more.
[01:03:19]  You're revoked.
[01:03:20]  Like we're getting these people out of here.
[01:03:22]  I mean, it's really, I mean, I can't really think of a precedent.
[01:03:26]  I mean, it's like if the John Burch Society had been given like full reign on like, you know, what Eastern Europeans did to port in the 1960s and not like that kind of stuff didn't happen.
[01:03:35]  But yeah, it's crazy to me.
[01:03:38]  And I think that especially for me, like what concerns me, the El Salvador shit, man, freaks me out.
[01:03:47]  And like we've talked about this before.
[01:03:50]  I don't like it.
[01:03:51]  I don't like it for anybody.
[01:03:53]  But like what concerns me is like, you know, when they test the, you know, they sort of test the envelope on that.
[01:03:57]  And like, I think we're kind of learning that there's the jurisdictional issues of like people who are sent there are not resolved.
[01:04:03]  Like I'm really not sure how they can appeal getting sent there or like if they're what jurisdiction they're under because they weren't convicted of anything in Sal Salvador.
[01:04:10]  They're just in prison there, but they're no longer in the U.S. jurisdiction.
[01:04:14]  My concern is like what happens when these organizations are like, hey, actually, these people are real terrorists.
[01:04:21]  And they are essentially the Palestinian equivalent to MS-13 or whatever.
[01:04:27]  Get them out of here.
[01:04:28]  It's like, do we start seeing college students getting sent to El Salvador?
[01:04:31]  Down, you know, at one point I would have thought that was a little histrionic, but like now I'm really not so sure.
[01:04:37]  I want to ask too about you, you know, you mentioned like part of the big, you know, push here is to create a chilling effect.
[01:04:45]  And I think it's important we talk about like the universities' role here because the pressure that's on them coming from both the funding mechanism and as we saw, I mean, all the drama that played out on the big screen of the congressional hearings.
[01:05:00]  I kind of had forgotten.
[01:05:02]  But, you know, I mean, we've got chancellors getting replaced left and right.
[01:05:05]  They can't find one that's just right, but they'll find our little, like, our little Zionist Boldilocks will find.

=== Universities And Repression (15:20) ===

[01:05:13]  But we, the universities are kind of capitulating, it seems, very quickly, which I think we expected, but maybe not.
[01:05:26]  We didn't expect it this much.
[01:05:28]  And yet, the administration, which I think is very obvious, isn't relenting, right?
[01:05:36]  They're still like, no, we're actually, oh, thanks for doing all of this.
[01:05:39]  Thanks for letting our ICE soldiers onto campus.
[01:05:43]  Thanks for shutting down all of these things.
[01:05:45]  Thanks for putting your professors into federal receivership for your Middle Eastern Studies Department at Columbia now has to go under like anti-woke review or whatever.
[01:05:57]  Just completely obscene.
[01:06:01]  But still, it's not enough.
[01:06:02]  It'll never be enough, right?
[01:06:04]  And so I'm curious if we can kind of talk through what the fuck is going on with these schools.
[01:06:11]  Yeah, I mean, I think a couple points.
[01:06:13]  One is that, you know, you named the pressure that universities are under.
[01:06:16]  I think it's important to note that different universities are like pretty differently situated.
[01:06:22]  Yes.
[01:06:22]  Right.
[01:06:22]  So it matters how much federal funding your institution is actually receiving.
[01:06:28]  It matters whether you're one of the big name institutions that's in all the headlines, right?
[01:06:34]  Like Columbia, UCLA, Harvard are treated very differently than what's happening at Bard or Tufts, right?
[01:06:43]  Even if the level of student organizing may actually be, may actually be the same.
[01:06:48]  And it also matters how big your endowment is.
[01:06:51]  Yeah, sure.
[01:06:52]  Like how positioned are you actually to be able to and what state you're in?
[01:06:58]  Yeah.
[01:06:58]  California is obviously its own target for a lot of reasons.
[01:07:02]  New York State is obviously its own target for a lot of reasons.
[01:07:04]  Yep.
[01:07:05]  Yeah.
[01:07:06]  So all of those things I think help to explain the differences we are seeing in university reaction, like maybe helps to explain why Columbia folded so quickly in comparison to other schools.
[01:07:18]  But I think a lot of them are basically stuck because as you've identified, this is not a real negotiation.
[01:07:26]  It's a shakedown.
[01:07:29]  The Trump administration doesn't care.
[01:07:32]  I don't believe the Trump administration cares what the policies are, really, on these campuses.
[01:07:39]  They don't care about anti-Semitism.
[01:07:42]  They care about punishing their enemies and punishing the enemies of the people in their constituents, in their coalitions, right?
[01:07:51]  So I see it as a dopamine button that they're pushing.
[01:07:56]  Anytime that they can get a win, anytime that they can get their enemies to fold, to give anything, then that's the, that is like what they're actually after, right?
[01:08:07]  And like, that's like my framework or like how I think of like how they are really operating here.
[01:08:12]  So yeah, you're right.
[01:08:13]  Like there's no, there's no actual amount of concessions that is going to get the focus off of them.
[01:08:20]  In fact, the opposite, right?
[01:08:21]  Like the more, the more concessions they're able to get, I think the more they're going to press because it's, because it's working.
[01:08:28]  And that, and the thing is, is that it doesn't help at all the universities because the more repression that they engage in for the most part, the more activism on their campus they engender.
[01:08:41]  Like if you actually look into what is keeping the student movement alive right now, it's these like second order protests.
[01:08:50]  Because what happens is the students engage in a form of political advocacy that is like on the basis of what they are seeing and what we're all seeing, which is a genocide unfolding that we're supporting.
[01:09:00]  So they make the very reasonable demand of, hey, our institution should not be complicit in this.
[01:09:04]  And what does the university do?
[01:09:06]  It suspends them and all their friends, right?
[01:09:09]  Then now all of a sudden these students have more motivation to escalate and to continue their activism because now they're not just fighting for justice, they're also fighting for their peers.
[01:09:20]  And the universities keep digging themselves a bigger and bigger hole because they're engaging in repression to try and get the administration off of their back and the third party off of their back and the media off of their back.
[01:09:33]  And all they're doing is bringing more heat on themselves at the level of student organizing.
[01:09:39]  And everyone is kind of assuming, and like, you know, to a greater or lesser extent, we kind of all participate in this logic from different directions.
[01:09:48]  But everyone is like, well, you know, if the repression gets bad enough, the students will just stop and they'll just go away and they will just, you know, give it up.
[01:09:57]  And it's just, you know, it kind of happens in waves and in degrees, but the student movement is not going anywhere.
[01:10:03]  And that's a testament to the fact that these, this isn't just about individuals and their four years on campus, right?
[01:10:09]  The student movement has been building for years and years and years, right?
[01:10:14]  Like there is a real kind of like organic grassroots basis to it, which is what all of the Zionists want to deny, right?
[01:10:21]  They want to say this is all astroturfed, thrown together.
[01:10:24]  The Qatar money now.
[01:10:25]  Yeah, Qatar, Iran, they sent the tents, whatever.
[01:10:28]  But the proof isn't.
[01:10:29]  I forgot about that.
[01:10:31]  The proof isn't a pudding, right?
[01:10:32]  Which is like, yeah, they keep suspending people and more people keep showing up.
[01:10:36]  And that is because fundamentally, the bright-eyed idealists on college campuses look at what's happening in Gaza and go, okay, well, you know, no matter what happens to me, it's not as bad as what we are doing over there.
[01:10:49]  Yeah.
[01:10:49]  Yeah.
[01:10:50]  Right.
[01:10:50]  And like, there are just going to keep being people who feel that way.
[01:10:56]  And it might be fewer people, but like you're going to, if it's fewer, then it's going to be more committed people.
[01:11:01]  And like, they're just not like, there's just not an elect, like the, the amount of repression that would actually take to truly scare people out of Palestine advocacy is like constitutional crisis level repression, which is maybe where we're headed.
[01:11:19]  It seems to me, and what I find so interesting is like, obviously, especially with the Columbia occupation stuff, there were all these sort of analogies made to the 1960s.
[01:11:27]  But I think one thing that like, I mean, one of the many things that like differentiates this modern iteration of, I mean, what you could say in some sense are anti-war protests from these large anti-war protests in the 1960s, although the occupation in the 60s at Columbia, I think, was not about anti-war, but you know what I mean.
[01:11:43]  Same kind of constituency.
[01:11:46]  Is that the anti-a lot of the, in the general anti-war movement in America in the 1960s was very militant.
[01:11:51]  I mean, famously, there was a lot of bombings and there was a lot of what you might call actions during that period.
[01:11:57]  Something which if like, I mean, if we want to fucking zoom out for a second, I mean, absolutely no disrespect to the student protesters when I'm saying this, but like we're talking about like people for the most part, like occupying the quad.
[01:12:09]  You know what I'm saying?
[01:12:10]  Like these are, and like, you know, like we saw in LA, those battles between, and again, Dylan is just a guest on the show.
[01:12:17]  He doesn't co-sign anything.
[01:12:18]  I'm saying those psychotic Persian Jews, you know, descending upon the encampment.
[01:12:23]  And believe me, those people, we love Persians.
[01:12:25]  We love Jews.
[01:12:26]  We love Persian Jews in some respects.
[01:12:27]  The no job's fantastic.
[01:12:29]  But these people coming down to the campuses there and just beating the shit out of students or trying to kill them, these fucking two by fours, these people are psychotic.
[01:12:37]  But all that is to say is like, we're not seeing like people blow up the science lab or anything right now.
[01:12:42]  But the amount of repression that we're seeing from the state is in many ways like equivalent to like high 1960s, high 1970s, like COINTELPRO style repression.
[01:12:55]  Because COINTELPRO, people just think it was just like informers and stuff like that.
[01:12:58]  Like, no, it was an entire huge state apparatus operation.
[01:13:02]  We're seeing a lot of that stuff play out against literally, I hate to sound like this, peaceful protesters.
[01:13:10]  And I'm not saying peaceful protest is like, oh, you know, that's the only kind of protest I support.
[01:13:13]  I'm not saying anything like that at all.
[01:13:14]  I'm just saying that's, I'm calling it as I see it.
[01:13:16]  And that to me is kind of, it speaks to a certain desperation on the side of both the government and the Zionists.
[01:13:26]  And insecurity.
[01:13:27]  And insecurity.
[01:13:29]  And I got to say, I don't think that pretty much any regular amount of protesting is going to have much of an effect on the American relationship to Israel.
[01:13:40]  I do think it makes sense that if you're, if you have, I mean, listen, I go to these fucking protests all the time, but if you, especially if you're an institution that does have like direct financial or whatever institutional ties to Israel, like, yeah, of course, you don't want to be part of that.
[01:13:55]  I don't know if anyone's really under the impression that this is going to stop the genocide.
[01:14:01]  But they're acting like, I mean, the amount of what you might call overreaction to me is just totally galling.
[01:14:09]  And I mean, the images of those guys in masks, men and women in masks, you know, grabbing, what was her name?
[01:14:19]  Azturk?
[01:14:21]  The student in Boston off the street.
[01:14:23]  I mean, that was just crazy for writing an op-ed, signing on to an op-ed.
[01:14:28]  Signing on to an op-ed.
[01:14:30]  I mean, it's just, it's just astounding to me.
[01:14:33]  But one thing that like I do, you know, from the documentary, from these lawsuits and from a lot of the propaganda we're seeing is trying to link all of these different groups.
[01:14:44]  Because one thing we didn't mention is that unbeknownst to me, to the Telegram channel Resistance News Network looms large in the mind of the Henmazigs of the world.
[01:14:56]  And I had no idea.
[01:14:57]  I'm like, I hate Telegram because there's too many fucking, there's too much going on there.
[01:15:02]  There's too many notifications.
[01:15:03]  You always think it's going to be a great idea.
[01:15:04]  You're always like, oh, yeah, I'll join this Telegram group chat and they'll give me the news.
[01:15:07]  And then it's like 80 billion notifications and you can't turn them off.
[01:15:12]  And you're like, oh my God, why did I do it?
[01:15:13]  Leave the group chat.
[01:15:14]  Yeah.
[01:15:15]  Look, yeah, 603 unread things from Lebanese news and other things.
[01:15:19]  I'm sorry.
[01:15:20]  I'm not catching up on that.
[01:15:21]  Give me the highlights.
[01:15:22]  What you have as a journalist?
[01:15:24]  I'm not a journalist.
[01:15:25]  I am a non-actionable.
[01:15:28]  No, that one's normal.
[01:15:29]  A non-actionable comedian slash entertainment personality.
[01:15:33]  And this entire show is parody.
[01:15:34]  But what they really are trying to connect there is like these students are disseminating terror propaganda.
[01:15:40]  And these, like, they're functioning.
[01:15:42]  And like we said in the documentary, they're like, SJP started as an explicit arm of AMP, American Muslims for Palestine, which was an arm of Hamas.
[01:15:52]  And so they're saying like the long arm of Hamas reaches onto the college campuses.
[01:15:57]  Do you think at any point they're going to actually try to like not just kick people out and like, you know, revoke visas or whatever because the State Department declares them sort of an enemy of the state or whatever.
[01:16:08]  But like, do you think they're actually going to maybe, I mean, or is there a possibility?
[01:16:12]  I know this is as a lawyer, probably don't like talking like this, that they actually might try to declare SJP, I don't know what, like in cahoots with a terror organization.
[01:16:21]  I mean, does it seem like they're kind of building up a case here to like actually get SJP, which is on a lot of campuses, although it's like an unofficial, it doesn't really seem like there's a ton of structure to the organization, which even they have to admit in the documentary.
[01:16:38]  As like an FTO, I mean, there's another escalatory point that they could take.
[01:16:43]  This is basically what I'm saying.
[01:16:44]  That isn't just them like revoking student visas, but is like going after anybody who is involved in these organizations, including American citizens.
[01:16:53]  And I'm not trying to fear monger anything.
[01:16:54]  I just want to be kind of like, I'm literally wondering.
[01:16:57]  Yeah.
[01:16:58]  Yeah.
[01:16:58]  I mean, there's a lot that's possible in terms of what could happen.
[01:17:01]  We're not seeing any indication that if there is going to be a designation coming down soon, it would be SJP.
[01:17:08]  And we, you know, there would obviously need to be like a major response to that because that would be a huge qualitative escalation in terms of repression.
[01:17:18]  However, I can say more broadly that like the kinds of repression, like what we are seeing in terms of what you were naming, right, as the totally over-the-top repression of nonviolent peaceful protests and civil disobedience activity, that overreaction is going to have negative consequences in the long term.
[01:17:44]  And really what it is, is this very actually Israeli logic of trying to do shock and awe in the short term to totally wipe the board, right?
[01:17:54]  Without actually factoring in long-term consequences.
[01:17:57]  So like the kinds of like escalation across borders in a military sense that Israel is currently engaged in, right?
[01:18:04]  Where they are just like trying to keep the escalation going, the logic of escalate to de-escalate is a little bit mirrored in the repressive strategies of organized Zionists and the U.S. government at home, where they want to just blow the movement out of the water completely.
[01:18:20]  And what we've been saying, right, what I've been saying here is that that may have some short-term gains.
[01:18:25]  Like, yeah, you may freak people out in the short term, but in the long term, what you're doing, what they're doing is providing ammo to the grassroots organization for Palestinian Liberation in the United States, right?
[01:18:39]  Because I can speak from experience as a student.
[01:18:41]  One of the things that radicalized me as an undergraduate was me making what I thought to be pretty basic demands about what, you know, about Palestinian human rights.
[01:18:52]  I was very much still using the human rights framework when I was in undergrad.
[01:18:57]  And, you know, our group was making pretty basic demands and was hit with a tremendous amount of repression.
[01:19:05]  And what that told me was, oh, okay, I guess this really simple, justice-oriented demand is fundamentally threatening to these institutions.
[01:19:15]  I guess these institutions are fucked up and bad.
[01:19:18]  Yeah.
[01:19:18]  Right?
[01:19:19]  That actually made me rethink these institutions more broadly and like pushed me to the left in terms of my political development.
[01:19:25]  And I think that is like ultimately going to be the long-term impacts of this, right?
[01:19:29]  We are like the one of the only things that's mobilizing liberals right now is these ice.
[01:19:34]  these ice snatch and grab operations.
[01:19:36]  Like that's actually getting people to freak out, right?
[01:19:39]  Because it's very nakedly plain and obvious to everyone that this is an overreaction, that this is an engagement that they are really trying to stamp out political dissent.
[01:19:51]  And so I think that ultimately they are digging their own grave in the long term.
[01:19:56]  And those fears that they were surfacing of like, oh, the next generation, they are doing nothing.
[01:20:02]  They are doing nothing to hamper that, right?
[01:20:05]  They are maybe getting individual actors to think twice about public expression in this political moment.
[01:20:11]  They are maybe laying the groundwork for even further escalations, but they are diminishing the standing of Israel in the minds of the American public.
[01:20:21]  And that's being borne out in survey data.
[01:20:24]  Yeah, I was going to say, it's very clear.
[01:20:26]  I mean, it's been on a, it's mirroring the stock market.
[01:20:30]  We'll put it that way.

=== Diminishing Standing of Israel (14:32) ===

[01:20:33]  How people view Israel popularly, I mean, among Americans.
[01:20:36]  And I'll also add that they are making anti-Semitism worse too.
[01:20:39]  Oh, okay.
[01:20:40]  By being like the only, you know, you know, you have free expression in this country.
[01:20:44]  You can criticize Russia.
[01:20:46]  You can criticize China.
[01:20:47]  You can criticize even the U.S. government, but the Jewish state, you're not allowed to criticize, right?
[01:20:52]  That is actually making people more anti-Semitic.
[01:20:54]  I mean, I mean, I think without a shadow of a doubt, I mean, to me, and I've talked about this on the show before, I cannot fucking get over.
[01:21:02]  I think about it frequently throughout the day.
[01:21:06]  It's like the fact that they're sending people to like ICE agents to people's houses to arrest them and send them to fucking New Orleans or to Louisiana.
[01:21:20]  Basically, the behest of the Jewish state.
[01:21:22]  And it's just like, it is galling the shit that like when these fucking people, when these fucking people, but no, but really, like watching this fucking documentary or hearing these fucking people talk about like, would you fucking, would you hide me?
[01:21:40]  Or like, I just can't believe this lack of support we're getting from the fucking, from what?
[01:21:46]  From fucking like remember, remember, Me Too, but not for Jew.
[01:21:50]  Me too, but not for Jew.
[01:21:51]  That was something that they've forgotten about the Me Too movement except for Israel, I guess.
[01:21:58]  Because you know why?
[01:21:58]  It's because they all fled there afterwards.
[01:22:01]  I'm like, it's still alive there because, you know, you got all the, you know, everyone left.
[01:22:07]  But that to me is what's so fucking crazy about all of this is both this like extreme, like over-the-top, mawkish, really like pathetic sort of muling and like, oh, I'm just a widow guy.
[01:22:22]  And at the same time, you got small being fascism.
[01:22:25]  And at the same time, you got these, these fucking, you know, these porky pig motherfuckers with guns like arresting fucking college students outside their dorm wearing masks being like, fucking, yo, this is by the authority invested of me of the state of fucking Israel.
[01:22:39]  You are fucking coming with me.
[01:22:40]  It's like, it drives me.
[01:22:42]  Which by the way, can I just say, this is like totally side point, but you'd like our stormtroopers are, it's like so contracted out at this point that they are literally just like, oh, I guess I got to take an old sweatshirt and tie it around my face.
[01:22:57]  Like they don't even have uniforms at this point.
[01:23:00]  They're just like these ice guys.
[01:23:02]  You see them?
[01:23:02]  Oh, they're literally.
[01:23:04]  They're slops.
[01:23:04]  It's like they took off the prime vest and put on the like ice one.
[01:23:09]  It's crazy how to budget the whole thing.
[01:23:12]  Compare them to like any security service, like state security service of like, you know, even like a Balkan country.
[01:23:17]  No disrespect, but even a Balkan country, they at least have the ski masks and the little armor things.
[01:23:22]  Like these guys are like, oh, I have a windbreaker that says like ice on it.
[01:23:26]  I got off a fucking Timu.
[01:23:28]  Like, yeah, well, fuck it.
[01:23:29]  I get that.
[01:23:29]  You wear the Marvel shirt.
[01:23:30]  Like, you fucking wear the Hulk shirt.
[01:23:32]  Yeah.
[01:23:32]  And like, you know, we, we both eat like 8,000 calories and then we fucking arrest this chick.
[01:23:37]  And it is just, it is just out.
[01:23:40]  It's crazy because it's like so much of what's happening right now in the government in general, not to expand too far, it's like, there's going to be some kind of constitutional crisis here.
[01:23:48]  It's like, if you are the, like, on like so many different levels.
[01:23:52]  So many different levels.
[01:23:53]  So many different parts of the constitution.
[01:23:55]  Many different, yeah, many different theaters where that's all happening.
[01:23:58]  And it's funny.
[01:23:59]  It's, and I've talked about this show before, and I'll say it frequently.
[01:24:02]  Anybody who's trying to point out like the hypocrisy of like the free speech part of the right wing in regards to this, you are wasting your breath.
[01:24:10]  They do not care.
[01:24:11]  Nobody gives a fuck if like hypocrisy, if they're being hypocritical and it's still, it's like that, that hypocrisy is allowing them to beat their enemies.
[01:24:20]  They don't care.
[01:24:21]  But I do think that that's actually, that's a great point because when you're watching October 8th, the way that they use like wokeism, such as it is, against itself and kind of like invert it is truly, I mean, it is a sight to behold because I think that it shows the poverty of a lot of the argumentation or like where this lead,
[01:24:49]  like this is where this inevitably goes, right?
[01:24:53]  That this kind of representational politics can only get so far and then can be completely and very easily instrumentalized and weaponized against any group, right?
[01:25:06]  And I think that like when you're watching, you know, whoever, fucking Michael Rappaport and what is her name?
[01:25:15]  Why am I Barry Weiss?
[01:25:17]  Oh, yeah.
[01:25:18]  Sorry.
[01:25:18]  No, I get it.
[01:25:18]  You all know what I'm doing.
[01:25:19]  Which I do feel like both of them, forgetting like top billing, like we really didn't get that much.
[01:25:24]  No, Barry on the big screen to me was a treat.
[01:25:28]  Yeah, I feel you.
[01:25:29]  But you know, you watching them very easily, like just say like, and also we're not included in any of this.
[01:25:38]  And that shows how, you know, impoverished this sort of so-called commitment to social justice is.
[01:25:45]  Like, like you're saying, it doesn't work to point out the hypocrisy.
[01:25:49]  Like the flaws in the logic are there in the argument, right?
[01:25:53]  Yeah, totally, because they want to be a minority to be able to employ the logic of grievance of saying, like, you actually have to listen to me because, you know, I'm part of a persecuted minority.
[01:26:07]  And so I have the, you know, this is like, they are trying to utilize viewpoint epistemology.
[01:26:14]  Exactly.
[01:26:15]  Basically, to just be like, you have to.
[01:26:17]  They're trying.
[01:26:17]  They are.
[01:26:18]  You have to defer to me, but they also, on the same time, are using the kind of power and privilege of being in the imperialist position to just totally exclude the colonial subaltern, right?
[01:26:32]  So it's like everyone has to listen to me and not included in the conversation are the non-people whom we have to be acting militarily against because they are threatening to me the minority position, right?
[01:26:46]  Like that is like totally like the limits of that like mode of deference and epistemology altogether, right?
[01:26:54]  Is because it's just like, you know, it funnels everything to like the claim on grievance that exists in the room, who's out of the room, right?
[01:27:02]  Who actually gets to be a subject in the conversation is determined before the conversation happens by the structures and forces of imperialism.
[01:27:10]  But what a beautiful end to like the past 20 years of like progressive politics, right?
[01:27:14]  Because then you see it on the big screen being used against you and it's just like, well, fuck.
[01:27:18]  I know.
[01:27:19]  The final casualty of October 7th, really, it was wokeism, was woke.
[01:27:24]  But really, I mean, the thing that like drives me so crazy about this stuff is like now, and again, at the risk of repeating myself, but you know what?
[01:27:33]  I'll take that risk.
[01:27:35]  Is now like sort of after Trump has been elected, is now whatever we can DEI, the anti-racist baby is illegal, but it is extremely illegal to be racist against the state of Israel and its supporters.
[01:27:54]  And the legal, like the legal maneuverings around this stuff.
[01:28:00]  We talked about Project Esther in the, which was sort of the Project 2025, but towards anti-Semitism.
[01:28:07]  The anti-Semitism insert.
[01:28:09]  Anti-Semitism insert in Project 2025.
[01:28:11]  Yeah, the single, the 12-inch single.
[01:28:14]  You know, this, this stuff, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of resistance from anybody in the government.
[01:28:20]  I mean, you see, like, you know, you have, you know, Bernie Sanders has always been weak on Israel, but like coming out and talking about, oh, it's like Netanyahu doing this, Netanyahu doing.
[01:28:29]  You know, there'll be some like sort of token measures people put forth, but there's absolutely no real like concerted pushback in the government against a lot of this stuff.
[01:28:40]  I mean, the IHRA, IHRA adoption that we've seen like on so many levels of the government and all these colleges and everything.
[01:28:49]  I think that's what drives me insane.
[01:28:53]  It's almost like there's nobody.
[01:28:55]  So many people I know, and I know a lot of people who are not like political, aren't like out in the streets of protests and stuff, but you know, are smart people, you know, read the news in a cursory manner.
[01:29:05]  And they're like, this stuff is fucking crazy.
[01:29:07]  Like, what the hell is going on here?
[01:29:08]  It doesn't seem like there's anybody in charge who is like a normal person who is like, listen, whatever your views on Israel-Palestine aside, this seems to be getting a little out of hand.
[01:29:17]  And I just, it strikes me as absolutely fucking, I mean, like you said, not only is this stuff going to make people like crazy anti-Semitic, but it also, I think one of the things it's going to have on like an even larger level is just people completely losing faith in any kind of institutions.
[01:29:35]  We talked about the pro-Palestine protesters who like, you know, are facing this massive level of repression from like the institutions that they themselves like belong to, like these schools and stuff.
[01:29:46]  And all these people, all these levels of complicity there.
[01:29:49]  But we're seeing levels of complicity from like top to bottom in our government, from like local governments to the very highest office in the land.
[01:29:58]  And one wonders, like, is there going to be like a legal stopgap to this stuff?
[01:30:03]  Because all these fucking, a lot of these lawsuits are filed in federal court, right?
[01:30:08]  How, like, is, do you think these will end up being kind of major cases?
[01:30:14]  I don't anticipate that these, that the civil ATA suits will go very far because they're so baseless that I imagine that the defendants will be able to get them dismissed at the motion to dismiss stage.
[01:30:30]  Now, I could be wrong.
[01:30:31]  I could be too optimistic.
[01:30:33]  But I think generally like the purpose of them is to tie up people in litigation, just fighting to get, they are trying to get past that initial threshold so that they can get into discovery, which makes things very complicated and costly.
[01:30:46]  I don't think that these civil lawsuits that are filed pose a major legal threat down the road.
[01:30:52]  And I also think it's interesting that we, you know, talking about stopgaps, so far the stopgap has been the judiciary of the Trump administration more broadly, which is really crazy given how much the Republican Party has invested over the past several decades in chud packing, basically, of just like filling the judiciary with like all of their guys.
[01:31:22]  And so the fact that that is the point of tension like says a lot about the liberal resistance, but is also, I think, an indication of where this movement can fall apart.
[01:31:36]  Right.
[01:31:37]  So like if they're willing to, if they're not willing to take the W on having won the fight in the judiciary long term and are insisting on these like very spectacular displays of repression, of like really cutting at the core of the Constitution in very obvious and on the surface ways, I think it means like we could see some fracturing happening in the in the Trump coalition that may not be like, oh great, it's fracturing now.
[01:32:07]  Something good could happen.
[01:32:08]  Like it might mean like something really bad happens.
[01:32:11]  I think two things.
[01:32:12]  One, I mean, we should remember too that like they already fired most of the bureaucrats who would have been standing in a lot of like administrative ways, right?
[01:32:22]  And also that, you know, in the case of the universities, they basically, you know, during the Binet admin, when all of the protests were going on, they're basically saying the orientation was exactly the same as what the federal government is now, right?
[01:32:37]  Like they were like, most of the universities were basically like, yeah, we do got to jail these students.
[01:32:42]  We do got to, I mean, if you take what they were arguing and why and how they should shut down these students to the logical end, it was like basically what the Trump admin is doing.
[01:32:54]  You know, there were major donors still calling for, you know, for if there were international students, they should, their visas should be revoked.
[01:33:03]  And these deportation lists were being made while Biden was in office.
[01:33:08]  Yeah, but I just mean that like now the universities and the people that were, you know, you know, they're basically kind of caught having to put their money where their mouth is.
[01:33:18]  And the problem is, is that like both at the universities and on the Dem political level is like they all caught on some level, they agree with most of it.
[01:33:27]  It's just a bit too garish, right?
[01:33:30]  Which is always the classic thing with Democrats.
[01:33:33]  And I'm sure their fear is like, you know, if any of them are thinking two, three steps ahead, which is tough for them, I know.
[01:33:40]  But, you know, theoretically, you could see how, like you're pointing out, Dylan, that this can then be used as a case to then bleed over in like larger, you know, outside of the, you know, just the case with Israel, right?
[01:33:55]  Outside of just the case with people protesting Palestine, but for any activity that could be deemed quote unquote anti-American, which we should say, like is already being seen.
[01:34:05]  Like students are having their F1s or their J1 visas being canceled for what is being called quote anti-American activity on social media.
[01:34:15]  And we don't know like what that means, but that's the happening.
[01:34:20]  So, you know, it's very clear that this can be used in many other cases.
[01:34:27]  And like you're saying, that's entirely the point.
[01:34:29]  Now, will anyone take their I Love Israel blinders off to see that?
[01:34:35]  I don't know.
[01:34:35]  It seems like you can see it a little bit in the pages of the centrist and liberal intelligentsia.
[01:34:41]  You have the like Conor Friedsdorfs and the fucking Atlantic, you know, columnists and the, you know, people at the New York Times that usually love this kind of shit being like, well, I didn't mean like that.
[01:34:52]  But it's sort of like, well, vibes, papers, essays.
[01:34:54]  Like, what did you think?
[01:34:55]  Yeah.
[01:34:56]  You know?
[01:34:58]  And so, you know, I think everyone, like you're saying, is sort of like freaked out by their own rhetoric.

=== Fake Ceasefires Across Board (04:42) ===

[01:35:05]  Yes.
[01:35:06]  Yeah.
[01:35:06]  And that's, and I think that what you're identifying is just now starting to happen.
[01:35:10]  Yeah.
[01:35:10]  You're just now starting to see some people be like, oh, fuck, wait.
[01:35:15]  What have, what have we got on our hands here?
[01:35:19]  And like, even Jonathan Greenblatt.
[01:35:20]  Across the board, by the way.
[01:35:21]  Yeah.
[01:35:21]  Yes.
[01:35:22]  Yeah.
[01:35:23]  Yeah.
[01:35:23]  Everyone's like, oh, wait, what the fuck is going on?
[01:35:25]  But yeah, Jonathan Greenblatt, even himself of the ADL, is like now kind of getting, he's a little bit walking back some of his support because I think he is, I think people are just now starting to see the writing on the wall.
[01:35:41]  And this is something that I am always harping on in different ways.
[01:35:45]  But the fact of the matter is if you throw Palestine under the bus, the bus is going to crash.
[01:35:51]  Like that is like the number one political lesson in the United States that I have taken away from the post-October 7th period, which is not good, right?
[01:35:59]  As a Palestine advocate, it's not what I want, right?
[01:36:02]  It's like cascading system-wide chaos.
[01:36:05]  But that is like fundamentally what is underway in this moment.
[01:36:10]  And I think that we are, like, in a very pivotal time where the chickens are starting to come home to roost and the chaos is, like, really setting in.
[01:36:34]  Well, Dylan, thank you for joining us for another depressing episode with fucking Dylan Saba.
[01:36:40]  Jesus Christ.
[01:36:42]  You're a lawyer?
[01:36:43]  I am, yeah.
[01:36:44]  God, my clients like, all right, well, Jesus, I'm not your client, but if I was your client, I'd be like, listen, give me a, someone a little happier.
[01:36:52]  I have a question.
[01:36:52]  Well, maybe I'll ask you this after recording.
[01:36:54]  Never mind.
[01:36:55]  What?
[01:36:56]  Are lawyers real?
[01:36:57]  No, it's just a piece of paper.
[01:36:58]  You literally just have to pass it.
[01:36:59]  You don't have to go to law school, right?
[01:37:01]  It depends on which state, but yeah.
[01:37:03]  Really?
[01:37:04]  Yeah.
[01:37:04]  Yeah, you can just take the bar.
[01:37:05]  That's what Kim K did in California.
[01:37:07]  Yeah.
[01:37:07]  But she had a fine ass.
[01:37:08]  Dylan doesn't co-sign this.
[01:37:10]  Kim K's fucking tutor was the sister of local San Francisco politician Matt Haney, who sucks ass, but his sister's fine as a motherfucker.
[01:37:18]  And she was Kim Kardashian's tutor.
[01:37:23]  Anyways, that's a little inside knowledge when I got there.
[01:37:28]  But all right, but you're at Palestine legal.
[01:37:30]  What can people do?
[01:37:31]  Is there anything people can do?
[01:37:32]  Yes, people can continue to speak out for Palestinian rights.
[01:37:36]  I know that it is intimidating and it's scary and that people should engage in that kind of advocacy in ways that are safe.
[01:37:44]  So if you are a non-citizen, you obviously have a different set of risks and concerns and you should talk to an immigration attorney in general, but if you're engaged in any kind of pro-Palestine organizing.
[01:37:54]  But for people like me, like you, who are citizens, it is really important to make sure that the message doesn't die, right?
[01:38:03]  Because the genocide is ongoing.
[01:38:05]  People are still suffering every day in Gaza.
[01:38:08]  And it is incumbent upon us to apply what political pressure we have and not give into political nihilism and also not give into this oppression that the administration is so desperately trying to impose.
[01:38:19]  Yeah, I think that's one thing that's worth really worth mentioning is that like the what's happening in Gaza, I mean, what's been happening in Gaza since October 8th or really since October 7th, really since before then, but you guys know what I'm saying here is like still ongoing.
[01:38:34]  Like there was Like the fake, the fake out ceasefire that, like, ceasefires are fucking fake as fuck across the board.
[01:38:41]  But, like, the ceasefires that Israel has been engaging in are like the, it's like, all right, we're ceasing fire, letting the barrels cool, and then like firing even more and again, and like hoping kind of like the cameras are off for this.
[01:38:52]  I mean, the this recent thing with them, them massacring these two separate groups of, uh, I don't know if you're reading about this, like the aid workers, it's killing these guys in this ambulance, torturing the one survivor, and then when people try to come back and get the bodies, massacring those guys and then burying them for fucking bulldozers in a mass grave is just out in, and I, it's so like obvious that, like, in any other context, this has happened in fucking Ukraine, or like, even this happened, like,
[01:39:21]  whatever country this happened in, this would be such a major story, and it's just like another, just one more thing that's just gonna like get topped by the next thing that the fucking that the IDF does.
[01:39:32]  I mean, it's just it's and the renewed assaults on the West Bank and this shit.
[01:39:38]  I think I was busy last night, but I just checked and it was like, oh, great, they're also bombing Syria again, they're bombing Lebanon again.
[01:39:45]  I mean, it's just ongoing and non-stop.

=== Ongoing And Non-Stop (01:12) ===

[01:39:47]  So, like, yeah, even if, listen, be smart, but but like Dylan's saying, it's like, it's not, don't be, don't be a pussy, you know?
[01:39:55]  I mean, that's, I mean, that's really, that applies to everything.
[01:39:57]  Just do not, I mean, it's just, you'll be all right.
[01:40:00]  Just fucking, just keep, keep, keep talking about it, keep doing trying to do something about it.
[01:40:05]  I think that's like the most important thing.
[01:40:07]  And I think if people do get a little discouraged, because like, and this is true, like, it is easy to give a denial, especially in America, because you're like, well, what can I do?
[01:40:14]  But it's like, well, you could do nothing.
[01:40:17]  And then you're, what are you?
[01:40:18]  You're, you're a big pussy.
[01:40:19]  And it's, it's, and nobody wants to be that.
[01:40:21]  It's pathetic.
[01:40:23]  Anyways, uh, Dylan, so much, thank you.
[01:40:25]  So, Dylan, thank you so much for joining us.
[01:40:28]  Uh, that is Dylan Saba from Palestine Legal.
[01:40:32]  Uh, my name is Brace.
[01:40:34]  I'm Liz, and I'm producer Young Chomsky, and this has been Tronon.
[01:40:38]  We'll see you next time.
[01:40:40]  Bye-bye.
[01:40:59]  Come out.