True Anon Truth Feed - Episode 298: James DiEugenio
Aired: 2023-06-12
Duration: 01:21:20


=== Liz's Smoky Times (02:13) ===

[00:00:00]  Brace.
[00:00:01]  Liz.
[00:00:02]  You missed the smoky times.
[00:00:04]  I did.
[00:00:06]  From what I gather, New York City and the, you know, surrounding farms.
[00:00:14]  Larger metro area where some of us live.
[00:00:16]  Liz lives.
[00:00:17]  I don't think I live in the metro area, actually.
[00:00:19]  I've been to your house.
[00:00:20]  I mean, it's I'm outside the metro area.
[00:00:23]  Why are you asking him?
[00:00:25]  Because he knows.
[00:00:28]  Yeah, well, I'm telling you, I've also been to your house.
[00:00:31]  And I want to say it's outside the metro area, but that's not because it's like in a town further outside.
[00:00:38]  Yeah, it's a town far, far away.
[00:00:39]  No, it's just like it's a hole.
[00:00:41]  And like, it's weird that you live in one.
[00:00:43]  Like, I understand you love the Hobbit.
[00:00:46]  You're fucking crazy about Frodo and the rest of them.
[00:00:51]  And I understand that you wanted your house to look like that.
[00:00:53]  But the thing about the Hobbit house is it's built into the side of the hill.
[00:00:57]  You did, you built yours vertical.
[00:00:59]  Yeah.
[00:01:00]  And that's what I understand.
[00:01:00]  It's like a trapdoor, and then you descend a ladder, and then it's just kind of like a root cellar.
[00:01:06]  Well, I'm trying to get to China.
[00:01:31]  Ladies and gentlemen, ni hao.
[00:01:33]  Welcome to China.
[00:01:35]  We have made it.
[00:01:36]  My name, of course, is the premiere, Brace Belden.
[00:01:42]  I'm Liz.
[00:01:43]  We're, of course, joined by producer Young Chomsky, and this is Truan.
[00:01:48]  And we are recording remotely right now.
[00:01:50]  Liz, of course, famously in the Hobbit hole.
[00:01:54]  Young Chomsky in a maximum security prison location unknown.
[00:01:59]  And myself, I'm in one of the Carolinas.
[00:02:02]  And the reason I'm telling you this, Liz, is because I heard something extraordinary last night.
[00:02:06]  Oh, it wasn't me literally not remembering which Carolina you're in because I thought you were going to make fun of me because every time cannot remember.

=== Mark Wahlberg's Mock Accents (04:40) ===

[00:02:13]  Well, check this out.
[00:02:14]  What?
[00:02:14]  Last night I was out at, I went to the movies.
[00:02:19]  Yes.
[00:02:20]  Wait, what did you see?
[00:02:21]  I saw Guardians of the Galaxy 3, which— I didn't even know that was a thing.
[00:02:27]  I got to tell you, I was— I thought they were only on the second one on that one.
[00:02:31]  I was lost.
[00:02:32]  Yeah.
[00:02:33]  I was, I was, there was all, it was mostly talking animals, which I was like, listen, I've, I've seen vanishingly few Marvel.
[00:02:43]  I think I've seen two Marvel movies.
[00:02:45]  Yeah, I think I've definitely seen way more than you.
[00:02:47]  And I was shocked at the amount of talking animals.
[00:02:51]  But it's also a talking tree, too, right?
[00:02:53]  Yes.
[00:02:54]  It was, yes.
[00:02:55]  But there was a talking.
[00:02:57]  So it's got flora and fauna.
[00:02:58]  Yes.
[00:02:59]  It was a talking dog.
[00:03:01]  There was a talking raccoon.
[00:03:03]  Beyond that, there was all these other fucking things talking, but they were like having they were like crying and shit.
[00:03:10]  It's like, you're an animal.
[00:03:12]  You can't do that.
[00:03:14]  Uh, but it was mostly talking.
[00:03:16]  Do you think the animals don't cry?
[00:03:17]  They don't feel emotions now.
[00:03:19]  They're faking it to try to get treats.
[00:03:21]  Like when dogs bark, you hear this dog barking the whole time out there.
[00:03:24]  He's just trying to get treats.
[00:03:25]  Oh my god.
[00:03:26]  They don't cry.
[00:03:27]  They're tough.
[00:03:28]  That's how they fight so good.
[00:03:30]  But I was outside.
[00:03:33]  I was taking a little tinkle, which is what I call peen.
[00:03:37]  And I was walking to the bathroom and there was like these people leaving another movie.
[00:03:43]  And I heard a guy say Mark Wahlberg in a Carolina accent.
[00:03:46]  And it was the craziest thing I've ever seen.
[00:03:48]  I heard in my fucking life.
[00:03:49]  Wait, what did it sound like?
[00:03:51]  I gotta.
[00:03:52]  Well, we, you know, we, you know, true and on, true and on fans will remember we were talking about the Carolina accent recently in an episode.
[00:04:00]  Sort of contrasting it with the gay accent.
[00:04:04]  And because it is a distinct thing.
[00:04:06]  This was an extraordinary example of a Carolina accent.
[00:04:10]  It's like, I fuck.
[00:04:13]  Mock Wah.
[00:04:15]  It was like, mock wild box.
[00:04:18]  But I'm not doing it right because I'm not, that's not, you know, these aren't, this isn't, you know, this isn't my people.
[00:04:24]  I mean, it's my people.
[00:04:25]  You know, I'm of, you know, I'm here, but uh, mock, it was like, I think it's got the guy was like, I think it's got mock wild bog.
[00:04:35]  What's crazy?
[00:04:36]  That kind of sounds Boston, but it's yeah, it's like a southern Boston.
[00:04:39]  It's like, which is, which is kind of how they're, they're rocking it out here.
[00:04:43]  So like South Boston.
[00:04:44]  No, but or it's just like the South, like Massachusetts of the South.
[00:04:48]  Mock, mock, mock, mock.
[00:04:51]  Maybe the mock is too bird-like that I'm doing it.
[00:04:53]  It's like mock.
[00:04:54]  No, because that's even more.
[00:04:56]  That's like mid-Atlantic.
[00:04:57]  Now I think you're really doing a Boston.
[00:04:59]  Mock Wah Bog.
[00:05:01]  It was like that.
[00:05:02]  It was like, I was like, I stopped in my tracks and I turned around and I looked at him.
[00:05:08]  I was like, that's crazy.
[00:05:09]  He just said that.
[00:05:10]  I should have asked her to repeat it into my eyes.
[00:05:12]  Is he in the movie or was this just a random?
[00:05:15]  No, he wasn't in the movie.
[00:05:16]  I wish he was.
[00:05:17]  Good God.
[00:05:18]  I wish what a pair of fucking cannons that guy is.
[00:05:22]  Mark Wahlberg shirtless in a movie.
[00:05:24]  My ass is watching it.
[00:05:25]  I'm sitting my fucking white ass down and I am eyes on the screen.
[00:05:30]  Yeah.
[00:05:32]  Wait, there's an what?
[00:05:33]  What's that Mark Wahlberg movie, Shooter?
[00:05:35]  Did you see that?
[00:05:36]  No, I don't know if I've.
[00:05:37]  Is that a Mark Wahlberg movie?
[00:05:39]  Am I just making this up?
[00:05:40]  It's about him playing the DC sniper.
[00:05:42]  I can't believe we have a producer who's not fact-checking me in real time.
[00:05:45]  He's just sitting there shrugging.
[00:05:47]  We need it.
[00:05:47]  He's not even, he's like, his arms are far from the computer.
[00:05:51]  Somebody get me a contract with the ringer.
[00:05:53]  We need a Jamie, is what we need.
[00:05:55]  We need a Jamie.
[00:05:57]  Is that a 2007?
[00:05:59]  2007, the Mark, Mark Wahlberg, which is, I've got to say, that is a really difficult name for me to say.
[00:06:07]  Mark Waba.
[00:06:08]  Mark Wahlberg.
[00:06:08]  It's a lot of like a rounding of my mouth, which I have a hard time with.
[00:06:11]  It's like how I can't say real world.
[00:06:13]  She's because she's losing the hole.
[00:06:15]  But that's an underrated, underrated Mark Wahlberg movie.
[00:06:19]  Mark?
[00:06:19]  Shooter.
[00:06:20]  Shooter.
[00:06:22]  Shoot.
[00:06:23]  Shooter.
[00:06:24]  No, how do you, how do people from here talk?
[00:06:26]  Mark.
[00:06:27]  How about this, Braves?
[00:06:28]  What?
[00:06:29]  Speaking of shooters.
[00:06:30]  My dad has a gong.
[00:06:32]  I can't believe you just killed my.
[00:06:35]  Sorry.
[00:06:35]  Sorry.
[00:06:36]  Say it.
[00:06:36]  Speaking of no, I don't.
[00:06:38]  I'm sorry.
[00:06:39]  Oh my God.
[00:06:40]  No, never mind.
[00:06:41]  No, no, please.
[00:06:42]  I don't have a segue.
[00:06:44]  We have an interview today.
[00:06:45]  No, no, don't do this.
[00:06:47]  Please.
[00:06:47]  I'm sorry.
[00:06:49]  It's Jim.
[00:06:50]  Do you genuinely?
[00:06:52]  Don't do this, Liz.
[00:06:52]  I'm sorry.

=== Feel Free to Correct Me (03:35) ===

[00:06:53]  Really famous, storied, accomplished, incredible JFK researcher.
[00:06:58]  That was what the segue was about shooters because he's researched, spent his life researching assassinations.
[00:07:05]  But I guess we can just get to it now.
[00:07:22]  Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the main event.
[00:07:26]  We have with us today Jim Di Eugenio.
[00:07:30]  If you know anything about research into the JFK assassination, you have heard this man's name.
[00:07:35]  He runs the website kennedysandking.com.
[00:07:38]  Fantastic resource.
[00:07:39]  Worked on two films for Oliver Stone, JFK Revisited and JFK Destiny Betrayed.
[00:07:45]  He worked for the Citizens for Truth about the Kennedy assassination.
[00:07:48]  His first book, Destiny Betrayed, I highly recommend.
[00:07:50]  And also the assassinations, JFK, RFK, MLK, and Malcolm X, which I believe you wrote with Lisa Pease, who I know you did run probe magazine with.
[00:08:00]  And I'm hoping I got all that correct because I think that's the longest intro that I've ever given anybody.
[00:08:07]  But if I didn't, feel free to correct me.
[00:08:09]  And if I did, feel free to congratulate me.
[00:08:11]  Jim, welcome to the show.
[00:08:13]  Congratulations.
[00:08:15]  Yes.
[00:08:16]  Yes.
[00:08:20]  Jim, I want to start off kind of going back in time a little bit and maybe get a little personal here with you, actually.
[00:08:27]  What, when, where were you on November 22nd, 1963?
[00:08:33]  I was in grade school back in Erie, Pennsylvania.
[00:08:37]  All right.
[00:08:37]  And the announcement came on the intercom.
[00:08:41]  All right.
[00:08:42]  And then the class was dismissed.
[00:08:45]  Everybody went home.
[00:08:47]  And like everybody else in America, you know, I was trapped by the big three, CBS, ABC, and NBC, you know, for two days.
[00:08:57]  And I'll never forget, I will never, well, I don't think anybody will ever forget to actually watch murder live on television.
[00:09:07]  And I'm sitting in our living room and Jack Ruby plunges forward in the middle of 50 policemen and puts one shot into Oswald's stomach.
[00:09:17]  And therefore, I jumped up in the air and I said, my God, they shot him.
[00:09:23]  You know, and so, you know, after the shock, which was pretty, pretty indelible, you know, after a few days, most people began to think, why would somebody do that live on national television in front of 50 people?
[00:09:41]  Okay.
[00:09:42]  Was he, did he have an order to silence Oswald because they didn't want Oswald to talk?
[00:09:48]  Why else would you do something like that?
[00:09:51]  You know, and so that became, you know, a really, as they say, provocative chain of discourse afterwards.
[00:10:01]  Now, I had some interest in this case, but it wasn't until the 90s that I really began to delve into it.
[00:10:13]  Because when I went to film school, my partner at that time said, why don't you write a screenplay?
[00:10:20]  And I said, about what?
[00:10:22]  And he goes, well, pick something that you're really interested in.
[00:10:25]  And so I said, what about the JFK assassination?

=== The JFK Case Edition (15:17) ===

[00:10:29]  Okay.
[00:10:30]  And so then I started working on this.
[00:10:32]  And then I picked up Variety, the trade paper one day.
[00:10:35]  And I saw Oliver Stone has purchased.
[00:10:38]  And there went my dreams of doing the screenplay on the JFK case.
[00:10:44]  And then I turned it into a book, the first edition of Destiny Betrayed, which I don't want anybody to buy.
[00:10:51]  Don't even look for it.
[00:10:53]  Really?
[00:10:54]  No, but it's a terrible book.
[00:10:55]  And I don't mind saying that.
[00:10:57]  Okay.
[00:10:57]  Because see, this is what happened.
[00:10:59]  Once Oliver's film came out, the 1991 film, and everybody's listening to his show has probably seen that.
[00:11:08]  And at the end of the film, he has this caption, which says, the last investigation of Kennedy's assassination, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, their files are classified until the year 2029.
[00:11:25]  And that created an uproar because hardly anybody knew that.
[00:11:27]  All right.
[00:11:28]  And so this created these hearings in Capitol Hill.
[00:11:33]  And they passed this law, the JFK Record Collections Act, which created a citizens review board, the ARB, all right, which set around declassifying this stuff.
[00:11:46]  And that's when I rewrote Destiny Betrayed because there was like 2 million pages that they declassified, you know, which made the first version of the book look like a Model T Ford.
[00:11:58]  Okay.
[00:11:58]  And so then I turned it into a Ferrari with, you know, all these new documents.
[00:12:04]  Okay.
[00:12:04]  Yeah.
[00:12:05]  You know, all right.
[00:12:05]  And so that's why I don't want anybody buy the first version of the book or the second version of the book is much, much better.
[00:12:12]  And this, what we did in the film, both films, we did not think that the MSM did, to put it in an understatement, did a good job in informing the American public of the discoveries that the review board had made.
[00:12:36]  You know, they put out literally scores of press releases, which were not covered.
[00:12:44]  All right.
[00:12:44]  And we actually had Toonheim, the chairman of the review board in the film.
[00:12:48]  He actually said that.
[00:12:50]  So what we wanted to do in the film is we wanted to bring these to the forefront, you know, of the public consciousness.
[00:12:59]  All right.
[00:12:59]  And that, and that's why we had, and one of the, I believe the reason, and by the way, the DVD of the film is still in the top 10 on the on the Amazon sales.
[00:13:12]  This is 11 months after it was first released.
[00:13:16]  You're talking about, you're talking about JFK Revisited.
[00:13:20]  Yes, the documentary.
[00:13:21]  All right.
[00:13:22]  Okay.
[00:13:22]  And we decided to get the best people that we could who were credentialed and had some study of the case.
[00:13:30]  This is why I think this is what I think gives the film its distinction.
[00:13:34]  Okay.
[00:13:35]  It's because you will never, ever see that many people in one, because it's just too expensive.
[00:13:43]  All right.
[00:13:44]  This is how this happened, by the way.
[00:13:46]  Rob Wilson was the producer of the film.
[00:13:50]  He calls me down to his office and he says, Jim, make a list of all the people you want to interview.
[00:13:57]  And that's exactly the way he said it.
[00:14:00]  He didn't say make a list of the top 10 people.
[00:14:02]  He didn't say make a list of 10 to 15 people you want to interview.
[00:14:06]  Make a list of all the people you want to interview.
[00:14:10]  I couldn't believe it.
[00:14:11]  Okay, so I go home and I spend a couple of days and I wrote a list of 34 people.
[00:14:18]  And so I brought the list down to Rob's office.
[00:14:21]  He didn't bat an eyelash.
[00:14:23]  Okay.
[00:14:24]  I said, oh my God, we're really going to get to interview this many people.
[00:14:28]  And it got so expensive that what we did, instead of bringing them to Los Angeles, we went to Dallas, we went to New Orleans, we went to Georgetown, okay, et cetera, because it was easier, cheaper to bring them into those cities than it was to fly them all across the country.
[00:14:47]  All right.
[00:14:47]  And that's why you get this cast, you know, Henry Lee, Cyril Wecht, Jefferson Morley, John Newman, Jamie Galbraith, et cetera.
[00:14:58]  You will never see that any place again.
[00:15:01]  All right.
[00:15:02]  That many people, okay, in a documentary about the JFK case.
[00:15:06]  Yeah.
[00:15:07]  Wait, so let's go back.
[00:15:09]  I want to ask a question, go back to the time between your editions of your book and what the process was after you're getting all of these recently declassified records about the assassination.
[00:15:23]  What was your process of kind of like putting together this stuff and rewriting basically your take on the case?
[00:15:31]  All right.
[00:15:32]  What happened is that although I don't live back east, okay, I live in LA.
[00:15:37]  All right.
[00:15:38]  I had a lot of people back east who knew who I was.
[00:15:43]  And they began to send me.
[00:15:46]  They knew that I was very interested in the whole New Orleans aspect of the case.
[00:15:50]  All right.
[00:15:51]  And so then they began to send me all of these documents that had been declassified, some of which were really kind of shocking, which we actually have in the film.
[00:16:02]  For example, about Clay Shaw's, Clay Shaw had a CIA covert security clearance that was not declassified until the 90s.
[00:16:13]  And all the stuff about the witnesses in the Clinton Jackson area who saw Oswald, Fairey, and John about 100 miles north of New Orleans in the summer of 1963.
[00:16:25]  All right.
[00:16:25]  And so they began to send me all this stuff.
[00:16:29]  And I said, you know something?
[00:16:31]  I should rewrite my book.
[00:16:33]  Okay.
[00:16:33]  Because I have a whole, and really, if you're unfortunate enough to have bought the first edition of the book and you compare it to the second edition of the book, I really, if I had to do it all over, I wouldn't even have kept the same title because it's a wholly different book than the first edition.
[00:16:53]  All right.
[00:16:53]  All these new documents, you know, took the case I had made in that first edition out of the twilight and into the sunlight.
[00:17:04]  Okay.
[00:17:05]  That's how different the second edition.
[00:17:07]  But what I did is I kept the framework that I had, all right, which begins with Kennedy, goes into the whole New Orleans case, and then ends with Kennedy.
[00:17:18]  I kept that bookend kind of structure, but I just rammed in, well, that book has 2,050 footnotes in it, okay, something like that.
[00:17:31]  Okay.
[00:17:32]  And so that's what gives it, you know, its quality that I really do think it's one of the better books on the JFK case, which is really saying something considering there's 2,000 books on the JFK case, you know?
[00:17:49]  Well, I know that you also had Probe Magazine with Lisa Pease.
[00:17:53]  You know, that was a magazine that wasn't just dedicated to JFK, that was dedicated to, you know, researching various political assassinations of the 1960s.
[00:18:01]  Can you tell us a little about the genesis of that?
[00:18:04]  Well, Probe Magazine started, I believe it was 1993.
[00:18:10]  Okay.
[00:18:11]  And Lisa joined up in about 1995.
[00:18:15]  You know, in addition to being a very good researcher, Lisa is a whiz on IT.
[00:18:23]  Okay.
[00:18:23]  And so she began to go ahead and lay out the magazine for us, you know, in a very distinguished format.
[00:18:31]  Okay.
[00:18:31]  And she developed a strong interest in the RFK case.
[00:18:37]  All right.
[00:18:38]  And she actually wrote the two-part article that became her book.
[00:18:47]  Okay.
[00:18:47]  For Probe Magazine.
[00:18:49]  That's how good Probe was.
[00:18:51]  You know, when you can have somebody like Lisa writing, I think that was like 45 pages total.
[00:18:57]  All right.
[00:18:58]  And then turning it into a book.
[00:19:00]  That's the kind of stuff that we had.
[00:19:03]  And now I think Lisa joined up in 95, and we went on to about 2000.
[00:19:09]  Okay.
[00:19:11]  And the night I first met Oliver, I told him that we were going to discontinue probe.
[00:19:20]  And he like, I'm not exaggerating.
[00:19:23]  He put his head in his hands like this and said, you know, because we were one of the very few publications, you know, that actually supported him and actually did disclose a lot of the information that he put out there that was accurate.
[00:19:40]  All right.
[00:19:41]  But that covered, like you said, not just JFK, but the RFK assassination, the Malcolm X case, and the King case.
[00:19:51]  And there was a lot of interest in the King case in the latter years because I don't know if you've ever covered this, but there was actually a trial in the King case.
[00:20:03]  Can you explain that to our listeners who might not be, maybe they're too young or they don't remember they're not familiar?
[00:20:11]  What happened was that Bill Pepper, who was the English lawyer who had represented the King family, decided to try and reopen the King case on, because you can reopen a case if you develop new evidence.
[00:20:30]  All right.
[00:20:31]  And so he moved in Memphis to reopen the case.
[00:20:37]  And he just happened to get Judge Joe Brown, who maybe you've heard of him.
[00:20:44]  He had a show on TV for a number of years.
[00:20:49]  But he ended up being the judge on that case.
[00:20:55]  And he was very interested in the King case.
[00:20:59]  The DA's office thought he was going to just be a slug, but he wasn't.
[00:21:03]  Okay.
[00:21:04]  And so he actually encouraged Pepper to go ahead and bring the case and to develop any kind of new evidence he had so he could reopen the trial.
[00:21:18]  All right.
[00:21:18]  Right on the verge of him reopening the case, he was removed from the case.
[00:21:26]  Now, that in itself is a story.
[00:21:29]  You have to look in the assassinations.
[00:21:31]  Judge Joe Brown was.
[00:21:32]  Yeah, to read what happened there.
[00:21:35]  But the powers at B in Tennessee were determined not to reopen that case and give Ray a new trial.
[00:21:43]  All right.
[00:21:44]  And so they removed him from the case, and the criminal part of it was now gone.
[00:21:50]  But Pepper decided to talk to family, the mother and also Dexter King, to go ahead and file a civil suit.
[00:22:00]  All right.
[00:22:01]  And that got a lot of publicity.
[00:22:03]  In fact, Dexter actually went and met with James L. Ray.
[00:22:07]  I don't know if you've ever, there's a film of that on YouTube.
[00:22:11]  Okay.
[00:22:11]  In prison.
[00:22:12]  And he asked him, did you kill my father?
[00:22:14]  And he said, no.
[00:22:16]  And he said, I believe you.
[00:22:17]  All right.
[00:22:18]  And of course, he was attacked for that.
[00:22:20]  All right.
[00:22:21]  And so then at the civil trial, this was really, this is just a really bizarre story.
[00:22:32]  Here you have the only real trial ever in the King case.
[00:22:40]  All right.
[00:22:41]  So you would think that you would get like court TV correspondents from all across the United States, you know, international coverage, et cetera.
[00:22:54]  There was only one reporter in that courtroom every day.
[00:23:00]  And that was our guy from Probe Magazine, James Douglas.
[00:23:03]  He was the only guy there every day.
[00:23:07]  All right.
[00:23:08]  And Court TV was going to go ahead and broadcast it a couple of days before when they were preparing all the technical stuff and the lighting, et cetera, they got the order to pull out.
[00:23:21]  Okay.
[00:23:22]  Even the local Memphis newspaper, the Memphis Commercial Appeal, they were ordered not to cover the trial.
[00:23:31]  In fact, the guy that they had originally assigned to the case, he would wait every day for Jim to come out.
[00:23:40]  Okay.
[00:23:40]  And okay, what happened?
[00:23:42]  And so Jim would have to tell him, okay, well, this and she testified, this guy testified, et cetera.
[00:23:48]  Okay.
[00:23:48]  And that's how he would get his information.
[00:23:51]  So whenever anybody tells you that we have an honest media in this country, okay, just tell them about that one.
[00:23:59]  Well, Pepper ended up winning the case.
[00:24:02]  They held for the, as they say, they held for the plaintiff and against the state, okay, that there was a conspiracy in the JFK case.
[00:24:11]  Of course, the media had to bury this.
[00:24:13]  So they sent Gerald Posner out, okay, to do interviews with the New York Times, et cetera, to cover up the King case like he had covered up the JFK case.
[00:24:23]  So, Jim, I actually want to ask you about that, about media coverage of this stuff in general.
[00:24:30]  You know, obviously, we covered this on our program before, but the sort of backlash to quote-unquote conspiracy theories about the Kennedy assassination started pretty soon after the actual assassination itself.
[00:24:44]  But then, of course, once the release of the report by the Warren Commission came out, there was this sort of tour that members of the Warren Commission or their lack is in the media would go on to sort of cement that as the permanent truth.
[00:24:58]  Meanwhile, much of the public believed that there was at least some kind of conspiracy behind the JFK assassination.
[00:25:06]  And this is sort of what I, you know, I had, I kind of have several questions about this, but, you know, we've seen this in JFK especially, but to a lesser extent also in the Malcolm X assassinations, the MLK assassinations, and the RFK assassinations.
[00:25:21]  You know, I obviously, as somebody who has been pretty, you know, knee-deep in this stuff for a number of decades, you've both weathered a lot of this and also had a lot of responses to various articles that have come out.
[00:25:34]  There's some pretty extraordinary stuff.
[00:25:37]  I think it was a Rolling Stone article that came out that lambasted the movie you made with Oliver Stone.

=== Disinformation Debates (06:15) ===

[00:25:46]  Tim Weiner.
[00:25:47]  Yes, Tim Weiner.
[00:25:48]  Yes.
[00:25:48]  Pretty incredible review, actually.
[00:25:51]  Right.
[00:25:51]  By the way, let me add this about Tim.
[00:25:57]  You would think that if a journalist is going to comment on things that the screenwriter put into the film, that he would call the screenwriter and ask him, Jim, where did you get this information?
[00:26:12]  Where did you get disinformation?
[00:26:15]  Where did you get?
[00:26:15]  Tim Wiener never called me before he wrote that hatchet job.
[00:26:21]  Okay.
[00:26:22]  And so me and Oliver replied to him.
[00:26:25]  And we told him, look, your boss, Jim Reston at the New York Times, wrote what you're saying is not true.
[00:26:33]  Are you going to say your old newspaper, the New York Times, was actually wrong about the OAS trying to assassinate de Gaulle?
[00:26:42]  Okay.
[00:26:43]  Yeah, that was so, yeah, to be, to, to sort of put a fine point on it, Tim Weiner essentially claims that, you know, what is a pretty commonly discussed incident of the, of the OAS, the sort of the Algerian secret army of the Pied Noir, I think I am pronouncing that wrong, but the French, the French-Algerian, I guess, governing force was trying to, was waging this basically civil war in France for a while.
[00:27:11]  Yes.
[00:27:11]  And they had plans to assassinate de Gaulle.
[00:27:13]  What Tim Weiner, the author of Legacy of Ashes, which is a sort of a history of the CIA, I'll say that like that.
[00:27:24]  But he claims that that's Russian disinformatsia or whatever, whatever they say in Romania.
[00:27:30]  Disinformatskaya?
[00:27:31]  Disinformatskaya, which is a really, which is a scarier, and in fact, even more disinforming version of disinformation.
[00:27:39]  But he says it was, and this is actually a tactic I've noticed from a lot of people of Tim Weiner-esque people, is that if anything appears in a left-wing European newspaper first, that that means that it was fed to them by the KGB, which is sort of an extraordinary way of looking at it, because they would never say the same thing, of course, about the New York Times, the Washington Post, or anything like that.
[00:28:06]  But every single thing that, you know, from any kind of European communist-related newspaper or magazine or socialist periodical has to be direct from the Kremlin.
[00:28:18]  I thought that was a rather extraordinary bit of hand waving that he did with that.
[00:28:23]  Yeah, it's ridiculous, actually.
[00:28:26]  One of the sources we used in the film was Andrew Tully, CIA, who wrote a book called CIA.
[00:28:35]  Andrew Tully is a CIA flack.
[00:28:38]  Okay.
[00:28:38]  And even he had to admit that there was a lot of information that the OAS was going to try and kill de Gaulle and that the CIA knew about it in advance.
[00:28:49]  All right.
[00:28:50]  You know, so what Tim Weiner was telling us was and this is why I don't think he called me okay, because he knew I would bring up these sources that would contradict what he was trying to say, you know, and that is see, and another thing about Tim, this is really weird, in 1997, when he was working for the NEW YORK Times,
[00:29:20]  the ARB released all these documents showing that Kennedy was getting out of Vietnam at the time of his assassination.
[00:29:28]  The NEW YORK Times wrote a story about this.
[00:29:31]  Kennedy planned to exit Vietnam in 1963.
[00:29:36]  Tim Weiner wrote that story.
[00:29:39]  Okay, he wrote that story.
[00:29:42]  So, in other words, he was actually backing up one of the main theses of our film, you know.
[00:29:47]  At the same time he's claiming that we were influenced by the KGB disinformation network uh, to say something that wasn't true.
[00:29:56]  And, by the way, I was in in the long version.
[00:29:58]  I think it's in both versions of the film, but especially in the long version.
[00:30:04]  I really liked the part that Oliver put in there about Algeria.
[00:30:09]  We had Richard Mahoney uh, a dean from North Carolina state who wrote what I thought was the best book about Kennedy's Africa policy JFK Ordeal In Africa okay, and I thought that was one of the best parts of of the film, showing how Kennedy decided to take a stand, you know, on the whole issue of Algeria against the French, which is very unusual,
[00:30:38]  because of course we know that France was supposed to be part of the Western alliance.
[00:30:42]  Okay, and Kennedy saying we shouldn't be backing France in this imperial war on the north coast of Africa, and he said words to the effect, does everybody here have memory loss?
[00:30:56]  Don't we recall what just happened four years ago with Den Ben Phu, when we backed the French in their imperial struggle in Vietnam and they were defeated?
[00:31:06]  Okay, do we really want to be on the wrong side of history again, you know?
[00:31:11]  And so so we?
[00:31:12]  we had Mahoney talking about that.
[00:31:14]  And I think that's one of the more, one of the better parts of the movie.
[00:31:18]  And it's part of the story that just doesn't get told very much.
[00:31:28]  Changing tacks slightly.
[00:31:30]  One question that I actually have, which might be sort of a silly question.
[00:31:35]  You know, obviously you've covered the JFK assassination in great detail, as anyone who's read your work would understand.
[00:31:43]  But just to you personally, what do you think is one of the most intriguing unanswered questions from it?
[00:31:49]  And that, you know, not, you know, maybe not the biggest one or, you know, one that would tie everything together.
[00:31:55]  But what are some of the juiciest loose ends that you think that there are?

=== Assassination Team Locations (03:17) ===

[00:32:02]  Okay.
[00:32:02]  Well, one of the things I think is very interesting that's come up of late is was the Secret Service, did what they do, was that a matter of negligence?
[00:32:19]  If it is, it's a scale of negligence that is pretty much incalculable.
[00:32:28]  Okay.
[00:32:29]  Can you explain further, like what, to our listeners who might not be familiar with this?
[00:32:33]  Okay, there's here just to name a few things.
[00:32:36]  The night before, you had like something like seven Secret Service agents in this after-hours bar, okay, in Dallas called the Cellar.
[00:32:48]  Okay.
[00:32:49]  They were drinking hard liquor, okay, until the wee hours of the morning, knowing that they had a 7 a.m. call the next day.
[00:32:59]  All right.
[00:33:00]  What kind of responsible law enforcement agent does something like that in a city like Dallas?
[00:33:07]  All right.
[00:33:08]  You also had the fact that whichever way you slice it, that parade route was, to put it mildly, rather a violation of Secret Service regulations because you had these two very extreme turns within the space of about one block, which slowed the car down to something like 11 miles an hour.
[00:33:37]  And beyond that, you had this tall building behind you.
[00:33:43]  Okay.
[00:33:43]  And to the side, plus you had this rolling slope uphill with a fence on top in front of you.
[00:33:51]  You know, when I used to go to Dallas every year, I used to go sit on the trestle there over the Commerce Street.
[00:34:00]  And just, you know, if you were an assassination team, you would be hard pressed to find a better location than that particular one.
[00:34:10]  All right.
[00:34:11]  Oh, Jim, I've been there.
[00:34:12]  Every time I go there, I'm like, I'm shocking.
[00:34:15]  Kill pretty much anything.
[00:34:16]  It's like sitting ducks.
[00:34:17]  I mean, that's what it feels like.
[00:34:20]  It's like you would just be like looping around a carousel, it looks like, you know?
[00:34:25]  See, the thing is, I've talked to people who were in Navy SEALs, et cetera, you know, and they told me, Jim, that is the actual outline we use when we plan an assassination.
[00:34:42]  It's called an L-shaped loop because you have one guy at the top here, you have the target right there, and then you have another guy at the other end.
[00:34:53]  So you can catch the guy in a crossfire.
[00:34:56]  Okay.
[00:34:56]  And there's no escape, you know?
[00:34:59]  All right.
[00:34:59]  And so that's actually designed by assassination teams, you know, to go ahead and knock somebody off.
[00:35:07]  The points are there so that if the first guy misses, it's very easy for the second, third, whatever, how many teams to come in and make sure that the job gets done.
[00:35:16]  Right.
[00:35:17]  Exactly.
[00:35:18]  All right.

=== Oswald's Moscow Connection (15:32) ===

[00:35:19]  Now, the other thing is you had, and I'm sure you guys have seen the film on YouTube with the Secret Service guy leaving Love Field.
[00:35:31]  Yeah.
[00:35:31]  Okay.
[00:35:32]  And jumping off the back of the car and waving his arms around, you know, why are you calling me off?
[00:35:39]  Okay.
[00:35:40]  You know, and so there was a cutback in the amount of guys guarding the car and in the number of motorcycles.
[00:35:49]  Okay.
[00:35:49]  On the detail.
[00:35:51]  Okay.
[00:35:52]  So those are the kind of things that, to be perfectly frank, not only did the Warren Commission not explore, but I believe they actually covered up.
[00:36:03]  All right.
[00:36:03]  That's one of the things that we dealt a little bit with, you know, in the film was a role of the Secret Service, you know, in the assessment.
[00:36:11]  That's one thing that I think is very, very interesting that has never been fully explored.
[00:36:19]  And then, of course, I could sit here and talk an hour about Mexico City.
[00:36:24]  All right.
[00:36:25]  But, you know, but in a nutshell, there is a very strong debate about whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald was ever in Mexico City when the Warren Commission says he was there.
[00:36:37]  Certainly the photograph that has been released that purports to show Oswald in Mexico City.
[00:36:44]  Listen, I wear glasses, you know, to be fully upfront with you guys.
[00:36:48]  My eyes aren't great, but it does appear to be a completely different person.
[00:36:55]  And not even, which always baffled me too, because I'm like, if you're going to release a photo, be like, at least try to make sure it's sort of, because there's nobody alive who's like, yeah, that's the same guy.
[00:37:07]  You know, I mean, you could, you could draw facial hair and sunglasses on him and you still, you know, it's not.
[00:37:13]  It's not just a picture.
[00:37:15]  You probably know this, but it's also the audio tape that the CIA station sent up to Dallas.
[00:37:22]  And J. Edgar Hoover is on the phone with Johnson a couple of days later.
[00:37:27]  And he says, they send us the audio tape and they say this is Oswald.
[00:37:32]  My agents listened to the tape in Dallas and they were in the same room interrogating Oswald.
[00:37:37]  And they say, this is an Oswald on his tape.
[00:37:41]  Okay.
[00:37:41]  So the CIA sends up the wrong picture.
[00:37:44]  They send up the wrong audio tape.
[00:37:47]  And you're supposed to just take that in stride and not ask any questions.
[00:37:51]  All right.
[00:37:51]  And then the other part is the guy on the tape, the guy on the tape, whoever it was, spoke broken Russian.
[00:38:01]  Yeah.
[00:38:01]  All right.
[00:38:02]  Everybody who talked to Oswald, okay, in the Soviet Union and the people who spoke Russian and the white Russian community in Dallas said that he spoke pretty good Russian.
[00:38:13]  Okay.
[00:38:14]  I talked to Ernest Titovitz, the guy who befriended Oswald, okay, in Minsk.
[00:38:21]  And I asked him, I go, did Oswald speak good Russian?
[00:38:25]  And he goes, yeah, he spoke good Russian when he got there.
[00:38:30]  The other side hates that question, of course, because that seems to dictate that here you have this Marine, you know, who's learning Russian while he's in the service.
[00:38:44]  Okay.
[00:38:44]  Why would he be doing that if he's a radar operator?
[00:38:48]  Can you explain to our listeners who might not know like the significance of the Mexico City trip with Oswald, why that's so important?
[00:38:56]  All right.
[00:38:56]  Oswald was supposed to have left for Mexico late September, around, I think, September 25th or the 26th.
[00:39:04]  He's supposed to have arrived back in Dallas, August, October 2nd or 3rd.
[00:39:09]  All right.
[00:39:10]  Yeah, he went to Mexico City to do remote work during COVID.
[00:39:15]  And he was supposed to have been there because he wanted to get a so-called intransit visa, all right, which meant that you went to the Soviet Union through Cuba.
[00:39:27]  All right.
[00:39:28]  And so Oswald was supposed to have taken a bus down there, checked into the Hotel del Comercio, and then made, I think, three visits to the Cuban embassy and at least one visit to the Russian embassy.
[00:39:47]  And he was supposed to have called the Russian embassy from the Cuban embassy.
[00:39:52]  Okay.
[00:39:53]  Then after that, he couldn't get the intransit visa, at least not right then and there.
[00:39:58]  And then he was supposed to have returned to Dallas.
[00:40:03]  Well, on the day of the assassination, this whole story gets broadcast out into the media.
[00:40:13]  And the CIA says, wait a minute, Oswald was meeting with this guy, Valery Kostakov.
[00:40:22]  And Valery Kostakov was head of Department 13.
[00:40:26]  And this was the KGB Department for Assassinations.
[00:40:31]  So everybody thinks, of course, well, oh, Oswald was serving as a Russian agent when he killed Kennedy.
[00:40:41]  Well, the Warren Commission more or less accepted this story and total, you know, that just what the CIA told them to do.
[00:40:52]  It wasn't until later when the House Select Committee really investigated this story that they began to see that there were, to put it mildly, a lot of holes in this story.
[00:41:09]  Okay, we mentioned two of them.
[00:41:12]  No picture.
[00:41:12]  And by the way, this is still a problem because in the declassified documents, we now have the inventory from the very first day the CIA checked the photo lab that they had.
[00:41:28]  And it says, no Oswald right on the inventory list.
[00:41:33]  There's no picture of Oswald here after they went through the whole thing.
[00:41:38]  All right.
[00:41:38]  Then you have the problem, the audio tape.
[00:41:41]  You know, there's no tape they've been able to produce with Oswald on it.
[00:41:46]  In fact, the guy on that would seem to contravene what we know about Oswald.
[00:41:52]  Four out of the five witnesses at the Cuban embassy said, no, that wasn't the guy who came in.
[00:42:02]  The two CIA plants inside the Cuban embassy, they had a couple double agents in there.
[00:42:10]  The CIA takes Oswald's picture to these guys.
[00:42:16]  And they say, did you see this guy in the embassy in late September, early October?
[00:42:24]  No.
[00:42:25]  And now the CIA is getting desperate.
[00:42:28]  So two or three days later, they go back to these guys and they literally say, can you please take another look at this?
[00:42:36]  Maybe you made a mistake.
[00:42:40]  And they said, no, we never saw this guy.
[00:42:42]  Okay.
[00:42:43]  When he was supposed to have been in, you know, in this embassy, we never saw him at all.
[00:42:47]  Then they started checking all the airports, all the car rentals, et cetera, okay, to find any trace that Oswald and how he got to Mexico City.
[00:42:59]  And they're at Wits End.
[00:43:02]  They can't come up with any story at all to explain this.
[00:43:06]  So who did they hand the problem over to?
[00:43:10]  They handed the problem over to the DFS, which is the Mexican security forces that are essentially an appendage of the CIA in Mexico.
[00:43:22]  And then they paste, they literally, and I'm not exaggerating, they pasted together this story about how Oswald got down there.
[00:43:31]  And when I say paste together, I really, they actually, you know, pasted documents together, okay, to put these Fred's fraudulent trail together, okay, to explain how Oswald got down there and then how he got back.
[00:43:44]  And that's a story that the Warren Commission swallowed, hook line, and sinker.
[00:43:49]  All right.
[00:43:49]  But the, I don't know if you know, Eddie Lopez and Dan Hardway wrote the so-called Lopez report for the House Select Committee on Assassinations.
[00:44:01]  That was finally declassified by the ARB.
[00:44:05]  It's about a 350-page report, okay, which essentially decimates the whole Warren Commission story, okay, about Oswald in Mexico City.
[00:44:17]  So this becomes a very serious question.
[00:44:20]  Did the CIA just set this whole thing up to make it look like Oswald was in league with the KGB to kill Kennedy?
[00:44:31]  And it also raises the question, did they set this up post, you know, post facto or whatever?
[00:44:36]  Did they do it after the fact or did they do it prior in order to have Oswald's sort of Patsy status really be cemented as like a, you know, as this Soviet assassin?
[00:44:47]  Yeah, that's another very good question.
[00:44:49]  Because if it's the latter, then what that shows is what they call, you know, premeditation, you know, that CIA was setting something up in advance of the assassination.
[00:45:03]  Because listen, I understand, you know, you got, if you're at work, the president gets assassinated, you didn't know it was coming.
[00:45:12]  You kind of got to cover your ass.
[00:45:13]  You got to be like, all right, well, we need to make this look like a, you know, a really sophisticated operation by our opponents.
[00:45:19]  But that stuff came out after the assassination pretty fucking quickly.
[00:45:23]  And so it does definitely seem more like it was set up in advance.
[00:45:29]  Yeah, those are some of the indications, at least.
[00:45:33]  You know, going back to probe a little bit, or at least the stuff that probe covered, what do you think of as the connective tissue between the assassinations of these, you know, the sort of four big political assassinations of the 1960s, JFK, RFK, MLK, and Malcolm X?
[00:45:51]  You know, what do you think of as sort of the connective link between those four?
[00:45:56]  In the anthology, The Assassinations, which is a kind of best of probe collection, okay, I addressed this issue in the afterward, okay, because we used to get all these questions from a lot of people.
[00:46:13]  You know, why do you guys deal with so much of the detail, okay, and what people would call the minutiae, okay, of the assassinations.
[00:46:23]  So I decided to go ahead and address what they call the big picture, okay?
[00:46:31]  And it's pretty hard not to come to the conclusion that what those four assassinations did is they essentially decapitated the left in the United States at that time, okay?
[00:46:49]  And they essentially led to the coming of Richard Nixon, all right, you know, and to a lot, and if you can believe it, of course, Gerald Ford, who was actually on the Warren Commission, okay, you know, when Nixon was threatened with impeachment, here you add Mr. Cover-Up, Gerald Ford, okay, you know, actually becoming president.
[00:47:13]  And we had a we had a great story in there about Jerry Ford.
[00:47:19]  I don't know if you remember it, but there was in the mid-1970s a lot of controversy about the CIA's role in Watergate.
[00:47:30]  And there began to be a movement for an investigation.
[00:47:35]  Okay.
[00:47:36]  And Gerald Ford decided to preempt the Senate investigation by setting up something called the Rockefeller Commission.
[00:47:44]  You know, his vice president, Nelson Rockefeller, was going to run this commission.
[00:47:49]  There was a private dinner with the New York Times, and the editor of the New York Times asked him, why did you nominate all these conservative people on this commission?
[00:48:01]  You've got Lyman Lemnitzer.
[00:48:03]  You've got Ronald Reagan.
[00:48:06]  Okay.
[00:48:07]  Aren't people going to suspect something?
[00:48:09]  And he says, well, some things needed to be concealed.
[00:48:14]  And he says, like what?
[00:48:16]  And he blurted out, like the assassinations.
[00:48:19]  Okay.
[00:48:22]  Okay.
[00:48:23]  And so then Bill Colby, who was the director of the CIA at that time, okay, when he heard that, he goes, oh, no.
[00:48:31]  He goes, what he meant when he tried to spin the story, of course.
[00:48:35]  And he goes, what he meant was assassinations of foreign leaders, you know, not domestic leaders.
[00:48:41]  Okay.
[00:48:41]  Okay, of course.
[00:48:45]  So there you have it from the horse's mouth.
[00:48:47]  Okay.
[00:48:49]  Yeah, I think that a lot of people see Watergate as kind of like a separate event or even like a postscript when it seems much more tied in to the kind of, you know, like Bryce was saying, these four big assassinations, almost like a wrapping up of a lot of loose ends.
[00:49:08]  Well, there was there were so many people who crossed over, you know, from the Watergate case with the JFK case.
[00:49:17]  We once did an article about this for probe, and it was called Deja Vu, 1963 to 1974.
[00:49:26]  And we went through several of the people, you know, who crossed over between the two, like E. Howard Hunt, okay, like James McCord, you know, like Frank Sturgis, like Dick Helms, okay, you know, and, you know, we posed the question, is this just a coincidence that all these same people were involved?
[00:49:48]  Or, you know, is there really a secret team?
[00:49:51]  Is there really a shadow government, you know, that manages surface its head every few years in the United States for these seismic scandals?
[00:50:00]  Yeah, I mean, I think you could like make a little yearbook, really, and it would be, you know, you have everyone's photo there and it would tell you just all of the, you know, putting all these people in one place would, I mean, give you a pretty good picture of, you know, 19, I'd say after World War II, up and through 19, up through the election of Reagan, really.
[00:50:22]  Pretty much have everyone there.
[00:50:24]  See, most people, because Woodward and Bernstein spun the Watergate story, okay, to be a total Nixon kind of operation, all right.
[00:50:42]  It wasn't until 19, I think Jim Hogan's book was published in 1984.

=== Pentagon Papers Revelation (15:42) ===

[00:50:52]  And Secret Agenda, his book was really the first book that really began to pull apart the veil and show, wait a minute, there was a CIA role in Watergate.
[00:51:09]  And it was completely covered up by not just Woodward and Bernstein, but by the Irvin Committee, you know, in Congress.
[00:51:18]  It's very interesting, by the way, how he discovered this material.
[00:51:22]  He was at the FBI Reading Library and he was doing some research on Watergate.
[00:51:29]  And he asked for these documents.
[00:51:32]  And evidently they had a new guy come in that day.
[00:51:35]  And he realized when Jim got these papers, he real, wait a minute, this guy's giving me classified information that nobody's seen before.
[00:51:44]  And so he knew that it would eventually be.
[00:51:46]  And so he just ran over to the copying machine and started copying all this stuff that he managed and stuffed it into his briefcase.
[00:51:55]  Okay, ran home, laid it out on his kitchen table.
[00:51:59]  And holy Christ, I was right.
[00:52:02]  You know, there really was a CIA role in Watergate.
[00:52:05]  And that's how that book came about, Secret Agenda.
[00:52:09]  I mean, you mentioned Woodward and Bernstein, and I think maybe that's a good way to get us back to the, you know, what, Brace, what you were saying was that the role of the media in kind of cementing people's understanding of these events as in, you know, in very like succinct little, I don't know, like elevator pitches or something.
[00:52:28]  Yeah, neat packages.
[00:52:29]  Yeah, neat packages.
[00:52:31]  Thank you, Brace, that they've done such a good job with that.
[00:52:33]  I mean, I think Hollywood has also been like totally, has played their role in really packaging these stories for their audiences, which is basically the American public.
[00:52:47]  I know you've done some work in breaking apart sort of how some of the, I don't know, like assassination story gets told in Hollywood, right?
[00:52:58]  The kind of from book option, from like journalists to book option to Hollywood production to then, you know, us seeing what we see at home and how that story gets told.
[00:53:09]  Can you tell us a little bit about some of that?
[00:53:10]  Yeah, see, in the assassinations, I decided to go ahead and take a look at Tom Hanks.
[00:53:22]  Okay, because more people should.
[00:53:25]  Why not?
[00:53:27]  Because he had purchased an option on Bugliosi's book, you know, Reclaiming History.
[00:53:34]  Jesus.
[00:53:35]  And when I saw this, I go, wait a minute.
[00:53:39]  You're going to tell me that Tom Hanks read 2,500 pages of Bugliosi's book before he optioned it.
[00:53:48]  Yeah.
[00:53:49]  No, the guy could have done like three movies by the time he got done with that book.
[00:53:55]  I was one of the very few people who actually read the whole book, the entire book plus the CD, which comes to about 2,500 pages.
[00:54:05]  And I knew that it was just simply a recycling of the Warren Commission.
[00:54:10]  And so in that book, what I tried to explain was some kind of hint into why Tom Hanks would do something like this.
[00:54:20]  And so it's him and Spielberg, they essentially wanted to, because of their, and I examined their, you know, growing up, et cetera, as teenagers, you know, that they wanted to be a part of the club.
[00:54:36]  Okay.
[00:54:37]  You know, and so they decided to join up with things like the post.
[00:54:44]  Okay.
[00:54:45]  you saw that film with Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep.
[00:54:49]  What movie is that?
[00:54:51]  The Post.
[00:54:52]  It's about the October 2008.
[00:54:54]  Yeah, a big Oscarbait movie about the Pentagon Papers.
[00:54:57]  I think it won a bunch of awards, actually.
[00:55:00]  And that film was supposed to make a heroine out of the owner of the Post, Graham, and the editor of the Post, Ben Bradley.
[00:55:14]  And Streep and Hanks played them.
[00:55:16]  It was supposed to make a villain out of Bob McNamara, the Secretary of Defense.
[00:55:22]  And so this is another thing I brought into the book, because that's not true.
[00:55:27]  I mean, it's not true at all.
[00:55:29]  Without Bob McNamara, we would have never had the Pentagon Papers.
[00:55:34]  The Pentagon Papers came about because around 1966, 1967, McNamara was having some serious emotional problems about what Johnson was doing in Vietnam.
[00:55:49]  And he communicated this with some other people, his friends, who had quit the administration after Kennedy had died.
[00:55:57]  And he said, look, this rolling thunder is not working.
[00:56:02]  This air war against North Vietnam.
[00:56:05]  And I've done the computations.
[00:56:07]  And the Vietnamese can repair the damage in a matter of weeks.
[00:56:11]  So all we're doing is killing civilians, you know, and bombing population centers.
[00:56:18]  Okay.
[00:56:19]  I would still say that would probably make him a villain.
[00:56:23]  Well, to go into all the things that happened to Bob McNamara, you know, like that would take another program.
[00:56:31]  But the thing is, so he decided that he was going to write a secret history of the war.
[00:56:39]  And he was going to keep it from Johnson.
[00:56:42]  And it was completely classified.
[00:56:45]  And he actually gave instructions.
[00:56:46]  I don't want Johnson to know anything about this.
[00:56:49]  Okay.
[00:56:50]  All right.
[00:56:50]  And so the secret history of the war was the Pentagon Papers.
[00:56:55]  And Daniel Ellsberg got that out.
[00:56:58]  All right.
[00:56:59]  And McNamara made no objections to it.
[00:57:02]  It was Nixon who wanted Ellsberg prosecuted, him and Anthony Russo, his friend.
[00:57:09]  Okay.
[00:57:09]  So what the film does, you know, making Graham into this heroine and McNamara into this, you know, to this guy who wanted to stop it, it was simply not true.
[00:57:22]  Okay.
[00:57:23]  And by the way, talking to people about this, they told me, I talked to the two lawyers who defended the New York Times and the Washington Post.
[00:57:35]  And they said, look, making a movie about the Pentagon Papers through the Washington Post, okay, would be like making a movie about Watergate through the New York Times.
[00:57:49]  Okay.
[00:57:50]  Because the Washington Post was only involved in this thing for like two weeks.
[00:57:55]  It was a New York Times that had the papers first.
[00:57:58]  And they had it for a very long period of time before they decided to publish them.
[00:58:03]  Okay.
[00:58:04]  So this is the kind of thing that I question in the book about Spielberg, you know, and Hanks.
[00:58:13]  You know, look, when your heroes are people like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, and you want to make a cover-up book about the assassination of President Kennedy, that tells me all I need to know about you.
[00:58:29]  Okay.
[00:58:38]  So, Jim, we got to wrap up in a second.
[00:58:40]  But, you know, one of the reasons we're having you on the program is not only, you know, the work with you done with your books, but with the two movies that have recently come out.
[00:58:49]  And, you know, I think that they were, it was sort of a predictable media cycle, which we talked about earlier in the show.
[00:58:55]  And, you know, you've written about as well, of the sort of like pillaring for some of the from some of these mainstream press outlets.
[00:59:03]  But it's actually a pretty extraordinary feat to get two feature length and one, I guess you would say double feature length films about the Kennedy assassination out and to have them be widely seen, widely viewed, you know, made by obviously a pretty, pretty major and famous director.
[00:59:21]  One, well, one, actually, I have two questions.
[00:59:24]  First, how did he get Whoopi Goldberg?
[00:59:26]  Well, that was Oliver.
[00:59:28]  Okay.
[00:59:29]  Oliver, Oliver wanted, want, you know, and the thing is, I really think she did a good job.
[00:59:35]  I do too.
[00:59:37]  You know, okay.
[00:59:38]  And he thought that this would, you know, I guess you call it in Hollywood, you call it casting against type.
[00:59:45]  Okay.
[00:59:46]  You know, to have a woman comedian, okay, to be one of your co-narrators.
[00:59:52]  Okay.
[00:59:53]  And so, you know, and it worked.
[00:59:56]  It worked.
[00:59:57]  She did a really good job.
[00:59:58]  And according to Oliver, she got most of it on the first take.
[01:00:01]  Oh, you know, listen, as somebody who talks a lot, that is difficult to do sometimes.
[01:00:06]  I mean, to have Donald Sutherland and her, I thought that was really good by Oliver, you know.
[01:00:14]  And the thing is, again, he did it.
[01:00:17]  He went against expectations because he had Sutherland do the Kennedy stuff and he had Whoopi Goldberg do the forensic stuff.
[01:00:27]  You know, so that I, you know, talk about, you know, that's, that's Oliver.
[01:00:32]  That takes some real intuition.
[01:00:35]  My final question is: how do you think the movie has been received?
[01:00:38]  I mean, obviously, it's been a while since Oliver Stone's last JFK movie, but it's also been quite a long time since the assassination itself.
[01:00:48]  And obviously, there's quite a few people that are still alive who it still is a major event for, but it's also being seen by a lot of people who weren't alive during that period, who didn't witness that firsthand and who didn't live through the 1960s.
[01:01:03]  How do you think it's being received just in general by people who might not have otherwise had this sort of personal stake in it?
[01:01:11]  See, we were really well reviewed in Europe.
[01:01:16]  Okay, when we broke at the Khan Film Festival, all right.
[01:01:21]  Our distributor had a clipping service, all right?
[01:01:29]  And so they collected all the reviews from all over Europe, from Scandinavia to Italy, okay.
[01:01:35]  And they came in about 15 to 5 in favor, which is really good for a Kennedy assassination movie, okay, because it's almost innately controversial.
[01:01:47]  All right.
[01:01:49]  And then I thought that because the movie was well reviewed in Europe, all right, and it did really well overseas, it's sold in about 11 markets.
[01:01:58]  I mean, man, we took over Australia.
[01:02:01]  They had like three national stories on us.
[01:02:05]  And then they drove me down to their studio in Hollywood, Channel 9 in Australia, and they interviewed me on their live morning show.
[01:02:17]  And then some I talked about this on a forum, and he said, Jim, you're on Channel 9 in Australia.
[01:02:22]  And I go, Yeah, Jim, that's the biggest network in Australia because he lives down there, you know.
[01:02:28]  And so we did very well overseas.
[01:02:29]  And then I thought they would just ignore us in the United States.
[01:02:34]  Okay.
[01:02:34]  But I guess the film became so popular on Showtime, you know, that they eventually brought out some of the big guns to try and knock us off.
[01:02:44]  You know, it wasn't just Tim Weiner.
[01:02:47]  They did at least two stories in the Washington Post, okay, knocking the film.
[01:02:55]  All right.
[01:02:56]  Then Gerald Posner, you know, blasted off, you know, on his website and said, this is the disease, JFK revisited.
[01:03:05]  This is the cure case closed.
[01:03:08]  Okay.
[01:03:08]  That guy's always yapping.
[01:03:10]  All right.
[01:03:10]  And so I said, okay, Jerry, if you're so confident, why don't you debate me?
[01:03:16]  Okay.
[01:03:18]  I'll call UCLA.
[01:03:20]  We'll get a big auditorium.
[01:03:22]  You against me.
[01:03:24]  Okay.
[01:03:24]  One-on-one, mono-ma mano.
[01:03:26]  You can pick the moderator.
[01:03:29]  No reply.
[01:03:30]  So then I said, Jerry, I'll give you all the gate receipts.
[01:03:35]  Oh, my God.
[01:03:37]  And then I'll give you all the broadcast rights if there's any broadcast rights.
[01:03:41]  And you can give the money to your favorite charity.
[01:03:44]  How can you turn down an offer like that?
[01:03:47]  Okay.
[01:03:48]  Again, no reply.
[01:03:51]  Okay.
[01:03:52]  And by the way, I did that with another guy from Vanity Fair.
[01:03:56]  And you know what he did?
[01:03:58]  He blocked me on his email.
[01:04:04]  Good lord.
[01:04:05]  So that's what these guys are like.
[01:04:07]  You know, that's what these guys in the American media are like.
[01:04:10]  You know, it's pretty easy to type away on your computer, but when it comes, comes time to go face to face, you know, they don't want any part of it.
[01:04:20]  You know, I got to tell you, Jim, I would be terrified to go face to face with you.
[01:04:24]  So I understand.
[01:04:26]  As a coward's coward, I understand where they're coming from, but it's still, these are not men of honor.
[01:04:32]  So that was kind of the reception we got.
[01:04:34]  But, you know, it didn't work, you know, because like I said, we did very good on Showtime.
[01:04:39]  The thing is streaming on about seven different platforms.
[01:04:43]  And like I said, it's in the top 10, you know, for DVD sales on Amazon 11 months after it came out.
[01:04:51]  You know, and I'm glad to do a show like this because you have a much younger audience from what I've read.
[01:04:58]  Pre-time.
[01:04:59]  And so a lot of, and a lot of the, what they call Generation X, you know, whatever they want to call it, X, Y, Z, whatever.
[01:05:07]  And so, you know, they really don't know that much about this.
[01:05:11]  Okay.
[01:05:12]  They don't know that much about either the assassination, the assassination's plural, okay, or what happened to the United States as a result of that.
[01:05:22]  Well, the film is excellent.
[01:05:23]  I have only seen part of the extended version.
[01:05:27]  So I got to say, both films, well, I've seen, okay, so the film and then part of the extended version that I've seen are excellent.
[01:05:35]  You can't, like you said, you can stream them almost on like what?
[01:05:39]  I think I watched it on Showtime.
[01:05:42]  I think I watched it on, but you can get it almost everywhere on streaming.
[01:05:45]  Yes, yes.
[01:05:48]  My little niece, well, she's not so little.
[01:05:50]  She's about 25.
[01:05:52]  Okay.
[01:05:55]  She called me one day and said, Uncle Jim, Uncle Jim, I finally understood the movie.
[01:06:05]  She goes, I watched it for the third time and I finally understood what you were trying to say.
[01:06:11]  That's got to be edifying.
[01:06:16]  I will say it's not a typical Hollywood comedy romance.
[01:06:20]  Okay.
[01:06:21]  You know, you have to actually do some work, okay, to thinking and concentrating while you're watching it.
[01:06:29]  Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[01:06:31]  It has been an honor and a privilege to host you.

=== Behind The Scenes Basement Types (06:57) ===

[01:06:34]  And, you know, though listeners can't see this, Jim and Truanon have under have we have climbed the mountain of technical difficulties and we have scaled it past the bodies of the fallen other hikers, just like in Everest as waypoints.
[01:06:50]  And we have scaled to the mountaintop and we are here.
[01:06:52]  Thank you so much, Jim, for joining us.
[01:06:54]  And Jim, thank you so much.
[01:06:56]  your work.
[01:07:08]  Ladies and gentle folks, that's F-O-L-X.
[01:07:12]  You may have noticed that my microphone changed.
[01:07:16]  No one's going to notice.
[01:07:17]  They noticed.
[01:07:18]  They're not going to notice, but now that you pointed it out, they're going to go back and look and look at it.
[01:07:21]  Nobody listens to the end of the episode.
[01:07:23]  I think people do.
[01:07:24]  Do you?
[01:07:25]  If you listen to the end of the episode, don't tell us.
[01:07:29]  Yeah, or let's.
[01:07:30]  Here's an Easter egg for you.
[01:07:32]  Four, seven, eight, six, one, two.
[01:07:38]  Remember that number?
[01:07:39]  Three, nine, nine, nine.
[01:07:41]  Yeah.
[01:07:41]  Sorry, what's the Easter egg?
[01:07:44]  What are you doing?
[01:07:47]  Oh my God.
[01:07:49]  Z42.
[01:07:50]  I have a question.
[01:07:51]  Yeah.
[01:07:51]  If you live in a hole, can you have a basement?
[01:07:55]  Why are you asking me this?
[01:07:57]  Okay, if I lived in a hole, no, yeah, you can.
[01:08:01]  You could, right?
[01:08:01]  Because you could have a floor level that was still, I mean, literally ground level.
[01:08:09]  Yeah.
[01:08:10]  And then beneath it, a deeper hole, which could be your basement.
[01:08:13]  To me, the basement is the house beneath the house, right?
[01:08:16]  And so if you've got a house that's underground and you have a house underneath that, the sub house is the basement.
[01:08:23]  So yeah, I mean, like your place, right?
[01:08:25]  It's mostly, it's kind of well-like in structure, appearance, and function.
[01:08:29]  You kind of have the hammock situation going on there and the Bunsen burner, but like it's a well.
[01:08:34]  That's not what's in my basement.
[01:08:35]  No, you.
[01:08:36]  You know what's in my basement?
[01:08:38]  What?
[01:08:38]  A big painting of Jeffrey Epstein.
[01:08:41]  Wow.
[01:08:41]  You do actually have a six-foot painting of Gillay Maxwell as a Roman statue.
[01:08:51]  You do have the Truanon sets in the basement.
[01:08:54]  I bring my laundry down and I'm looking at Gillay Maxwell's tits every fucking day.
[01:08:58]  It is crazy.
[01:08:59]  It's crazy because this rendering of her, you know what?
[01:09:02]  All love to Z, but she looks like Rachel Maddow.
[01:09:05]  So it's really like Rachel.
[01:09:08]  You do have Rachel, Rachel Maddow playing Ghillain in a made-for-TV movie as a Roman statue with tits out.
[01:09:14]  Single tit single one tit in your basement.
[01:09:19]  This is the problem with you basement types.
[01:09:21]  Like, I have nothing to hide because I don't have a basement.
[01:09:24]  So I have nowhere to, I don't even have a closet.
[01:09:26]  my first time having a basement and it's too much yeah you should start having house shows i think i think you should have hardcore bands playing your basement no yeah and charging just an insane amount of money yeah you should or the other thing that you have a basement for of course roots the root seller and then i'm like maybe have someone chained up down there okay sure like have a prisoner because that's also lots of a library of wine Your lie,
[01:09:56]  a library of wine.
[01:09:57]  That's why you would keep in a seller.
[01:09:59]  But wouldn't it be, oh, just the color?
[01:10:02]  The term is library?
[01:10:04]  I don't know.
[01:10:04]  It could be a library of wine.
[01:10:06]  If it's significant enough.
[01:10:09]  What makes a library?
[01:10:09]  What denotes a library from just a library is anywhere you can lend.
[01:10:13]  You don't lend the wine.
[01:10:14]  I'm going to say, you know it when you see it.
[01:10:16]  That's true.
[01:10:17]  You do know when you see it.
[01:10:18]  That kind of goes for everything.
[01:10:19]  I love that.
[01:10:21]  That's a true and on rule because we were kind of the first people to say that.
[01:10:24]  So it's like, you know it when you see it.
[01:10:26]  No.
[01:10:27]  You know?
[01:10:27]  And it, you know, can refer to a lot of things.
[01:10:29]  However, it also, a lot of people use that in the wrong way where it's like, you don't know that when you see it.
[01:10:35]  You don't know that when you see it.
[01:10:36]  Some things you don't know when you see it.
[01:10:38]  Like a miracle.
[01:10:40]  Like you don't always know a miracle when you see it.
[01:10:42]  Sometimes it takes a couple of days.
[01:10:43]  Totally.
[01:10:44]  Or years even.
[01:10:45]  You look back and you say, oh my God, wow.
[01:10:48]  I know I've said this on the show before, but another thing, you can judge a book by its cover almost always.
[01:10:54]  Yeah.
[01:10:55]  Like, but a literal book, not metaphor.
[01:10:58]  No, but also a lot of metaphor.
[01:10:59]  Like, I'm just like, if the point of that is don't be racist, totally.
[01:11:05]  Or like, you know, just because someone looks like a slob, they can be a good person.
[01:11:10]  Absolutely.
[01:11:11]  Well, I don't think, yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be good people.
[01:11:14]  Some of the greatest people in history have been slobs.
[01:11:18]  You know, but I got to say, most of the time, you're looking at a book, you're looking at its cover, make the call.
[01:11:27]  Because what's the reason you're not making the call?
[01:11:30]  You know, you don't believe in yourself?
[01:11:32]  What's up with book covers these days?
[01:11:34]  They look crazy.
[01:11:35]  Crazy.
[01:11:36]  Insane.
[01:11:37]  It all looks like they're like selling tinned fish.
[01:11:40]  They all look like tin fish.
[01:11:41]  All of them look like hipster tuna camp.
[01:11:43]  It's what's the fucking crazy.
[01:11:45]  I have no idea.
[01:11:47]  Am I getting a sardine or a novella?
[01:11:49]  No one knows.
[01:11:50]  The worst is when they re-release an old book with the new book cover, that should be that should be a federal crime.
[01:11:56]  Dude, keep the old book cover.
[01:11:58]  The only books with like that have somewhat dignified cover.
[01:12:01]  I think that is it New York Review of Books that puts out those books.
[01:12:04]  It's just got the book title in the middle of that motherfucker.
[01:12:06]  You know what I'm talking about?
[01:12:07]  I don't know.
[01:12:08]  It's just like a there's the French publisher, Gallimard, who has the really good ones, which is just they're all white and then the title just in black and in red.
[01:12:17]  That's it.
[01:12:18]  You know, you're a little bit of a Gallimard.
[01:12:20]  I don't know what you mean by that, but I'm going to take a Galmard Gallimard.
[01:12:24]  All right.
[01:12:25]  Yeah, it's a kind of thinky.
[01:12:27]  I'm just saying, if you can't think of a cover, don't have anyone draw anything, especially don't put you know what I hate what people do.
[01:12:34]  So to out of focused miniatures on the cover, I see that at the bookstore from time to time, and out of focus miniature, nobody wants to see that.
[01:12:40]  I just think we got a lot of you know, graphic design is my passion types doing book covers these days.
[01:12:45]  If you can't, if your book is like the you're calling your shit, because all books are called like the wind in the willows now.
[01:12:50]  If your book is, if you're putting out the wind in the willows now, you can't think of a cover.
[01:12:55]  You're like, I don't know, it's about a girl in her mid-20s struggling to figure out her life or whatever.
[01:13:01]  Just slap a pair of hooters on there.
[01:13:04]  Gussy them up any way you want, but just put everybody's kind of all right with that, you know.
[01:13:09]  And no more green and blue.
[01:13:11]  Everything is green and blue.
[01:13:12]  No more.
[01:13:13]  You combine bright green, bright blue, maybe a little like swirl or some sort of just like one foot.
[01:13:20]  Get out of here.
[01:13:21]  No more.
[01:13:21]  My thing is, is go back to putting the author on the cover.
[01:13:26]  Make the author look like a fucking idiot, like shrugging or something.
[01:13:29]  With a grand piano, perhaps.

=== Behind the Scenes Sneak Peek (05:40) ===

[01:13:31]  Oh, that's crazy.
[01:13:32]  Yeah, that grand piano.
[01:13:33]  And by the way, these authors' photos, and then you can really judge a book by its cover because you say that's the author.
[01:13:39]  No, thank you.
[01:13:41]  The author photos on the inside, too.
[01:13:43]  We're done with that.
[01:13:44]  I don't want to see you in your backyard in front of a fence, black and white photo, whatever.
[01:13:49]  I want to see you having sex.
[01:13:51]  If you're a writer and you put out a book, I want to see a mid-copulation.
[01:13:55]  And this is what I'm saying: is a lot of people think that, like, oh, you know, they expose so much about themselves.
[01:14:00]  I don't know what his penis looks like.
[01:14:02]  Hey, put your money where your mouth is.
[01:14:03]  Put your money where your mouth.
[01:14:04]  Put your put honestly, yes.
[01:14:06]  Put your money where my mouth puts your money in my mouth so I can fucking see you because I'll gag on that money and I'll be like, damn.
[01:14:13]  Because what if you're good at it?
[01:14:14]  You know what I mean?
[01:14:15]  Like, what if you are one of the rare people who look cool having sex?
[01:14:18]  I don't.
[01:14:19]  Side note, by the way, I really love it.
[01:14:22]  I'm going to just, this is a little note for true non-listeners who are listening to the end of the episode.
[01:14:26]  You get a little sneak peek behind the scenes.
[01:14:29]  I was so excited because today Brace texted the group asking about Zion Williamson's baby mama drama.
[01:14:38]  You should talk about this.
[01:14:39]  Yeah.
[01:14:40]  And I wish I had a like video proof of this, but it's true.
[01:14:45]  I almost texted you guys about this like two days ago and like typed out a long thing, deleted it, then retyped it out and then deleted it again and was like, they're not going to care about this.
[01:14:57]  I wonder because it was so because it's sports and I know you guys don't care, but it's like so funny.
[01:15:03]  That's you, you're right.
[01:15:05]  And I did say that in a sympathetic voice to kind of maybe gaslight you into thinking that I would care, but I probably wouldn't.
[01:15:10]  But it is funny.
[01:15:12]  But you would have just seen it, but then not clicked because I know you all seems cool.
[01:15:18]  I still don't know who Zion Williams really is.
[01:15:20]  He plays, but you know, he's fat.
[01:15:21]  He's a fat basketball player.
[01:15:23]  He's what?
[01:15:24]  He's he's always had he's always had problems with his weight.
[01:15:27]  I mean, look, a lot of players do.
[01:15:29]  Luca, looking at you.
[01:15:31]  Um, Luca Magneta.
[01:15:33]  That's because Luca drinks like beers at halftime or whatever.
[01:15:35]  But yeah, they do it different over in, you know, in the Balkans.
[01:15:41]  But Zion's always had a problem with his weight, which I think has to do with his knees, to be honest.
[01:15:47]  He's got fat knees.
[01:15:49]  I think his knees are not great.
[01:15:50]  He's got big, he's just so he can't.
[01:15:53]  I don't understand.
[01:15:53]  Why can't he?
[01:15:54]  So he's not very athletic.
[01:15:55]  None of my body is great.
[01:15:57]  Well, but you're not a professional NBA player.
[01:16:00]  And those things are related.
[01:16:01]  Yeah, those things are related.
[01:16:03]  Fair enough.
[01:16:03]  So this guy is, this guy is, he's fucking like a cat, right?
[01:16:08]  Like he's all, he's a, he's a, he's on every alleyway in America and he's, he's, he's screwing around.
[01:16:13]  And he's, he's in a situationship with a OnlyFans model.
[01:16:21]  I think probably there's way more than just the one.
[01:16:24]  Yeah, probably.
[01:16:25]  But I will, let me break it down.
[01:16:27]  So Zion Williamson and his baby mama, who I don't know who she is, um, they released a gender reveal video announcing that he was becoming a father.
[01:16:39]  She was pregnant.
[01:16:40]  The kids are they them reveal.
[01:16:43]  And at that very moment, another woman took to Twitter who is apparently an OnlyFans model and started airing some grievances and was basically, she said some crazy shit.
[01:16:58]  And it's been going on for like three days.
[01:17:01]  And it's crazy that it's still going on.
[01:17:04]  And no one in his camp has called her and been like, girl, you got to stop.
[01:17:08]  Well, she actually has made mention that he asked her to stop doing that.
[01:17:14]  But did like Nike, because that's who you need to make the call.
[01:17:18]  Does he have a shoe?
[01:17:19]  I don't know if Zion doesn't have a shoe.
[01:17:21]  No.
[01:17:22]  He doesn't.
[01:17:22]  Oh, well, okay.
[01:17:23]  I'm sorry.
[01:17:24]  If you don't have a shoe, then it's like, he's got a, oh, he does have a shoe.
[01:17:28]  Well, wait, but it's not a signature shoe.
[01:17:30]  These are different.
[01:17:30]  He's got a Jordan.
[01:17:32]  Okay.
[01:17:32]  Uh-huh.
[01:17:33]  Oh, wait.
[01:17:33]  How can you have a Jordan if you're not Michael Jordan?
[01:17:36]  No, so Jordan is like a separate line from Nike.
[01:17:39]  So like you could have like, it's called like the Zion 2, which is like a style of Jordan's, but like LeBron has a sneaker or, you know, Kyrie's had their own sneaker.
[01:17:50]  Gotcha.
[01:17:51]  He had his own sneaker.
[01:17:52]  It's different than having a signature shoe.
[01:17:54]  But I guess maybe it is.
[01:17:56]  I'm not sure.
[01:17:58]  I will say this.
[01:17:59]  She's been releasing the text messages, which is, that's low, right?
[01:18:04]  But some of them are just, I'm looking for this one right now.
[01:18:09]  I'm scrolling down right now.
[01:18:11]  Half of these, unfortunately, there are just also nudes that she sent.
[01:18:14]  So I'm trying not to let my parents' dog see these.
[01:18:18]  But there's one where he's like, she's like exposing him as being a sex addict where he's like, do you know any thick white women that we could have a threesome with?
[01:18:29]  And she's like, you're a fucking sex addict.
[01:18:31]  You're a fucking sex addict.
[01:18:32]  It's like, I don't know.
[01:18:33]  This guy.
[01:18:34]  No, but she's not.
[01:18:34]  Yeah, the big one was that she was like, I let you spit in my mouth, but you are having a baby with another woman.
[01:18:41]  That's, yeah.
[01:18:42]  And like so much stuff that you just don't want to know about Zion.
[01:18:46]  And they were messaging on Snapchat, it looks like.
[01:18:50]  Yeah, it's, yeah, this is just.
[01:18:52]  And he was like going to move her to New Orleans.
[01:18:54]  And she says, better pray I'm not pregnant too because I'm definitely late.
[01:18:58]  It's just, this seems to be.
[01:18:59]  Yeah, but then she calls him fat and says like she basically says like, I was trying, I was helping you lose weight.
[01:19:05]  Why did you do this to me?
[01:19:07]  Like, I was helping you out.
[01:19:08]  I told you you were going to be the next LeBron, but now you're too fat.

=== Soda in the Shower? (02:08) ===

[01:19:12]  There's all these soda cans in your bathroom.
[01:19:14]  Yeah, she does say, listen, you don't, I want to say this as an advice to all guys.
[01:19:19]  The soda in the bathroom, what are you doing there with it?
[01:19:22]  Because the implication there is that you bring in the Coke and we don't know what soda it is, right?
[01:19:27]  It could be a Coke Zero.
[01:19:28]  What do you think is the grossest soda to drink in the shower?
[01:19:31]  I always say sprite.
[01:19:33]  No, I'm going to go.
[01:19:33]  Well, weird.
[01:19:35]  Dew is weirder to me.
[01:19:37]  But that's just because dew is like weird.
[01:19:39]  Yeah.
[01:19:39]  But in terms of like normal sodas, I think drinking a sprite in the shower is very weird.
[01:19:47]  I'm not going to say I haven't hosed myself off while sipping a DC before.
[01:19:50]  Because I know that a lot of people like a shower beer.
[01:19:53]  Yeah.
[01:19:54]  But I've never heard of a shower soda.
[01:19:56]  Yeah, I've never drank a beer in a shower.
[01:19:59]  I mean, I've definitely drank a beer in a shower.
[01:20:00]  Never drink a beer in a shower while it's on.
[01:20:02]  But I, I, the shower soda, I, I don't even, I'm a, you know me.
[01:20:07]  I drink water like more, probably more water than any other human being alive.
[01:20:11]  Yeah.
[01:20:11]  I'm like Avatar 2.
[01:20:13]  But I guess I don't really drink a lot of water on that.
[01:20:16]  But it's in the shower.
[01:20:19]  I'm there for one reason and one reason only.
[01:20:22]  Dandruff shampoo.
[01:20:24]  Okay.
[01:20:25]  And that's it.
[01:20:26]  Whole body.
[01:20:27]  Well, you really don't want to, you know, you don't want to get those two confused.
[01:20:30]  You don't want to, you don't want to drink the dandruff shampoo.
[01:20:32]  I do drink the dancho shampoo, incidentally, but you don't drink it in the shower.
[01:20:36]  And that's why you're blue.
[01:20:37]  That's why a lot of people think that it's the colloidal silver that you take and sell, by the way, on TrueNOT.com.
[01:20:44]  But it's not.
[01:20:45]  It's the Selson Blue.
[01:20:47]  I drink Dandruff shampoo.
[01:20:49]  And that has changed my fucking life.
[01:20:52]  Yeah.
[01:20:52]  It got all your insides to stop being so flaky.
[01:20:55]  And most of them are on its outsides now.
[01:20:58]  So with that being said, time to return to New York City.
[01:21:03]  My name is Mach Waba.
[01:21:10]  I'm Liz.
[01:21:11]  We are, of course, as always, joined by producer Yank Chowsky.
[01:21:15]  And this has been the little extras for the listeners of Truanon.
[01:21:19]  We'll see you next time.