True Anon Truth Feed - 👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 199 👁️
Aired: 2022-06-29
Duration: 45:25


=== Gavel Gone (04:16) ===

[00:00:00]  Liz, how do we say it again?
[00:00:02]  It's Ghislaine Maxwell Trial, Day 199.
[00:00:23]  That's the gavel, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:00:26]  No gavel.
[00:00:27]  What?
[00:00:28]  I didn't see a gavel.
[00:00:29]  I looked for it again.
[00:00:30]  Oh, God.
[00:00:31]  My God, I can't fucking believe this.
[00:00:33]  I can't fucking believe this.
[00:00:34]  This always fucking happens.
[00:00:36]  Which is funny because I was actually going through my notes from when, from the trial, like on the way to the, today, to court today.
[00:00:46]  And one of my last notes was, I saw a gavel.
[00:00:50]  So at one point, yeah, we did see a gavel, but the gavel is now gone.
[00:00:54]  Maybe it was like, she had one in like a shoulder holster for a while, but she just didn't, she didn't draw.
[00:01:01]  Liz, hello.
[00:01:03]  Hello, Brace.
[00:01:04]  Hello, everyone.
[00:01:05]  I'm Liz.
[00:01:06]  My name is Brace.
[00:01:07]  We're, of course, joined by producer Young Chomsky, and this is True Anon trial coverage, final judgment.
[00:01:13]  Trial coverage.
[00:01:14]  Final judgment.
[00:01:19]  We did the math.
[00:01:21]  We just did the math.
[00:01:22]  We found out that it is now day 199 of the trial when you include this little interlude that we've been in, which is almost six months to the day, but not quite, since the verdict came out in the Ghillaine Maxwell case.
[00:01:38]  Yes.
[00:01:38]  And now today, June 28th, she has been sentenced.
[00:01:43]  Yes, Ghillaine Maxwell sentenced to 20 years and let us not forget, $750,000 in fines.
[00:01:51]  Which he did try to wriggle out of.
[00:01:54]  Oh, yes.
[00:01:55]  We can get into that.
[00:01:56]  So Liz, you went to the courthouse today.
[00:01:58]  I did go to the courthouse.
[00:02:00]  Yes.
[00:02:00]  I was there present with a whole host of old friends of ours and a lot of new faces, including a woman who protested the use of QR code to get in.
[00:02:14]  Did she really?
[00:02:15]  Yes.
[00:02:16]  And refused to divulge her vaccination status, which felt like a throwback.
[00:02:21]  Yeah, that's fantastic.
[00:02:23]  Listen, you know, I don't care if you're vaccinated or not.
[00:02:26]  All I care about is that you refuse to use QR codes.
[00:02:30]  That's really my main political issue.
[00:02:32]  I think that's totally fine.
[00:02:34]  I support that.
[00:02:36]  So tell me about it.
[00:02:38]  Lay out the scene for me.
[00:02:39]  What happened today?
[00:02:40]  Well, before we get into that, I do want to update you because I did have to go see what's up at Cafe Lorenzo.
[00:02:49]  Just get a little lay of the land.
[00:02:51]  Yes.
[00:02:52]  It's been a minute since we were there.
[00:02:54]  And it looks about the same.
[00:02:57]  Not much has changed.
[00:02:59]  However, there's a new sandwich board that they got branded Cafe Lorenzo, which I thought was very nice.
[00:03:06]  And it had a little message that I thought was really lovely.
[00:03:10]  And I wrote it down in my notebook for you, Brace.
[00:03:11]  So it said, Cafe Lorenzo presents new day, new blessings.
[00:03:21]  Three exclamation points.
[00:03:25]  I don't understand.
[00:03:26]  I don't really understand it either, but I thought it was a very nice sentiment.
[00:03:31]  And I like that they were trying to spread joy in such a dark basement.
[00:03:38]  Yes.
[00:03:41]  I visited once or twice in the interlude.
[00:03:45]  Of course, between the First and Second World War, I'm referring to there.
[00:03:49]  And to lay back on the divan there and have that seductress that they call a cafe worker dip sausage links connected by little strands into my mouth as I chomp them bite by bite, slurping them with my tongue like the guy from Spawn.
[00:04:07]  I did.
[00:04:08]  I did eat something.
[00:04:09]  I got a yogurt, but pre-packaged.
[00:04:11]  Yeah, if you're at Cafe Lorenzo, hot tip, always go for the pre-packaged thing that they make in-house.

=== Feeling Contrite? (15:24) ===

[00:04:17]  It's not, it's not.
[00:04:18]  Remember that chicken I got?
[00:04:19]  That was funky.
[00:04:20]  Yeah, that was a first day chicken.
[00:04:23]  Never again.
[00:04:23]  Never again.
[00:04:25]  Definitely not a first day chicken, but I know what you mean.
[00:04:29]  All right.
[00:04:29]  So Cafe Lorenzo, fantastic as always.
[00:04:32]  Okay, yeah, fantastic as always.
[00:04:33]  Let's get to the real meat and potatoes of the episode.
[00:04:39]  On that gourmand tip.
[00:04:42]  So, yeah, very busy.
[00:04:45]  A lot of people, a lot of new faces.
[00:04:46]  I got to say, COVID rules out.
[00:04:49]  So we're all packed in like sardines.
[00:04:51]  You're fresh kissing.
[00:04:53]  Shoulder to shoulder.
[00:04:54]  Everyone's making out.
[00:04:55]  It's like, you know, a total just, you know, free-for-all.
[00:05:01]  That was missing when we were there.
[00:05:02]  The orgiastic quality to the Thurgood Marshall Courthouse was just gone.
[00:05:06]  Yeah.
[00:05:07]  Flavoring.
[00:05:07]  New York Shakespeare.
[00:05:08]  And true Thoroughgood.
[00:05:09]  Thoroughgood.
[00:05:10]  Remember, we didn't, I feel like we had a hard time saying that before.
[00:05:13]  It's a fucked up name.
[00:05:17]  No, but there was a lot of, it seemed to be a lot of law students or legal aides, clerks, et cetera types because they all had phones.
[00:05:28]  And so you knew that they were like kind of like let in.
[00:05:30]  Yeah.
[00:05:32]  And a lot of press that we haven't seen in a long time.
[00:05:34]  And, you know, got to say hello to some old faces, which was nice.
[00:05:37]  Okay.
[00:05:37]  Yes.
[00:05:38]  But the proceedings started around 11 a.m., which I appreciated as well.
[00:05:45]  And Ghillain shuffled in gray prison garb, little kind of like tissue white long sleeve underneath.
[00:05:57]  Hair, let's say, dome-like kind of helmet, helmet-esque, little Tom Brady cut, but like, you know, the helmet style.
[00:06:09]  Um, and shackled in chains.
[00:06:13]  Interesting.
[00:06:14]  She's in chains.
[00:06:15]  In chains.
[00:06:15]  You could hear it.
[00:06:16]  Clink, clink, clink, clink.
[00:06:18]  Wow.
[00:06:18]  Yeah.
[00:06:19]  And so, like, you know, her gait was sort of, you know, very abrupt.
[00:06:26]  Yeah.
[00:06:26]  Yes.
[00:06:27]  Interesting, they put a Jew in chains within six months of Hanukkah.
[00:06:32]  Yeah, Jacob Marley-ass looking bitch.
[00:06:34]  We're Marley and Marley.
[00:06:39]  She was all clanking around up in there, but she was, for the most part, not, you know, the body language.
[00:06:48]  Yeah.
[00:06:48]  Obviously, as a, you know, studying body language expert, soon to be expert.
[00:06:56]  She really wasn't, you know, effusive, I'll say.
[00:07:01]  She was really like quiet, demure, like really loving that Fiji water, you know, as always.
[00:07:09]  It was really like bringing all this, all these memories back from the trial, you know.
[00:07:13]  I mean, can you imagine after being in Gowanus jail, drinking the tap water there, how delicious a nice rectangular bottle of Fiji must feel?
[00:07:24]  Yeah.
[00:07:26]  But, you know, probably the biggest surprise of the day, which I think the whole thing took about four hours in total, which was much longer than I anticipated, I'll just say.
[00:07:41]  The biggest surprise was that Gillane herself made a statement, which was shocking.
[00:07:48]  Yes, because as listeners of our trial coverage will know, there was a lot of like, I mean, we never really actually thought she was going to speak in her own defense.
[00:07:58]  It would have probably been a pretty bad move because she would have been cross-examined.
[00:08:03]  But she didn't say a word during the entire trial, except for to answer a few questions, I believe at the beginning and at the end.
[00:08:10]  And so this was actually her first sustained vocalization.
[00:08:15]  Yeah, and it was long.
[00:08:17]  I, it, look, I'm just going to say silkiest voice I've ever heard.
[00:08:24]  You're joking, really?
[00:08:25]  I'm not joking.
[00:08:26]  It was like that.
[00:08:28]  It was like very soft.
[00:08:30]  And I understood immediately what the quality that Gillane has that many victims have spoken about, which is that she has this sort of like soft, manipulative, kind of like calm, but you can tell there's like, it's not totally genuine quality.
[00:08:51]  It's like there's some kind of affect to it that is like, it feels like it's almost, almost nice, but not, it's not at all.
[00:09:00]  There's a darkness.
[00:09:01]  But it was like, it was silky smooth, just totally eloquent, perfect British English, of course.
[00:09:11]  And, you know, it kind of like took me aback.
[00:09:14]  I was like, I don't know.
[00:09:16]  It felt, it was pretty shocking.
[00:09:19]  Yeah.
[00:09:19]  I mean, she didn't, she didn't seem to speak for very long.
[00:09:21]  I've read the speech now.
[00:09:22]  Her, her family has published it.
[00:09:26]  But what did what was your sort of reaction?
[00:09:28]  Or were you sort of like, I mean, obviously I would have been shocked that she had spoken because I mean, while it makes sense, her lawyers definitely seem to try to keep her off the stand the whole time.
[00:09:38]  I mean, do you have any takeaways from it?
[00:09:41]  Well, what my one for my first takeaway was, I wonder if she actually would have been good on the stand because she was very, you know, eloquent and whatever put together.
[00:09:54]  And there's just something, you know, us Americans are such dumb yokels that we hear the British accent and we automatically are like, this is a very smart, reasonable person, no matter what.
[00:10:03]  Yeah.
[00:10:03]  You know what I mean?
[00:10:05]  Not all British accents, but I know what you mean.
[00:10:08]  No, that like high educated posh British voice, very posh.
[00:10:15]  My second main takeaway, I will say, is that she sort of was like, it felt like she was really faking her contriteness that she, you know, was kind of saying these right, these things that she was supposed to say.
[00:10:32]  She really was like, you know, I hope that the, I don't have the quote right in front of me, but basically to the, you know, to the effect of, I hope that the girls get closure, that this trial brings them, you know, they can kind of move on with this chapter from their life.
[00:10:51]  Like there was a little bit of distance there that she was trying to say.
[00:10:54]  And then she made a kind of like dramatic pause at one point and then said, you know, I meeting Jeffrey Epstein is the biggest regret of my life or something to that effect.
[00:11:08]  And that, I mean, I can kind of believe considering, you know, she is now being sentenced to jail for, you know, her crimes that she committed alongside with Jeffrey Epstein as Jeffrey Epstein's second in command, by the way, to quote Judge Allison Nathan.
[00:11:26]  Interesting.
[00:11:27]  So I, yeah, I, you know, her speech, I have reread it a few times since her family published it about an hour ago.
[00:11:34]  And it's interesting that she really, you know, when people are like, they do something wrong to you?
[00:11:41]  Or I'll speak, I'll use I statements here.
[00:11:44]  A lot of times when I've done something wrong to other people, but I don't feel bad about it or I'm trying not to take responsibility, but I'm still trying to do like an apology.
[00:11:53]  You know what I mean?
[00:11:54]  You say stuff like, I acknowledge their suffering and empathize deeply with all the victims in this case.
[00:12:01]  I also acknowledge that I have been convicted of helping Jeffrey Epstein commit these crimes.
[00:12:07]  And so it's like, she's basically saying that, like, I know that you're hurting and I get that.
[00:12:12]  But she doesn't say, I hurt you, if that makes sense.
[00:12:16]  Absolutely.
[00:12:17]  Yes.
[00:12:17]  And that was, I mean, that was clear as day to anyone in the room.
[00:12:23]  She went on.
[00:12:24]  I mean, she says to, I've had plenty of time to think, having spent two years in solitary confinement, just like really to like let you know she's been in solitary confinement.
[00:12:34]  She's hitting all the notes.
[00:12:35]  Yep.
[00:12:36]  You know, I believe that Jeffrey Epstein was a manipulative, cunning, and controlling man who lived a profoundly compartmentalized life and fooled all those in his orbit, clearly trying to say herself as well.
[00:12:48]  Right.
[00:12:48]  Yeah.
[00:12:50]  And I, you know, I got to say for to give her credit, Allison Nathan, the judge, like, didn't buy any of that.
[00:13:00]  And when she was getting to the sentencing, she made a point to really say, you know, you said that, you know, you hope that this brings them closure.
[00:13:12]  You hope that they can like move on.
[00:13:14]  I'm sorry for the pain that you feel.
[00:13:16]  That's always such a, that's such a like, yeah.
[00:13:18]  And now I sound like one of those kind of like viral Twitter, like girl tweets.
[00:13:24]  That's always like, you know, dear men who don't go to therapy, like, this is not how you apologize or whatever.
[00:13:31]  But like, for real, that's like not a good apology.
[00:13:34]  That's the, I'm sorry that you feel the way that you do.
[00:13:37]  Yeah.
[00:13:37]  You know, like, that's, that's hella crazy.
[00:13:40]  And I'm sorry that you're mentally ill, but like, I acknowledge that and I acknowledge your suffering.
[00:13:45]  I hope my conviction along with my harsh incarceration brings you closure.
[00:13:51]  And what's so funny is that when I read that out loud, it sounds so fucking passive aggressive.
[00:13:56]  It's so passive aggressive.
[00:13:57]  And it is, it absolutely is.
[00:13:59]  But I'm telling you, in the like silky, smooth, posh voice that Ghulan has, there's a way that she's able to twist it.
[00:14:07]  So it does actually sound almost like contrite.
[00:14:13]  And like she's trying to actually, you know, empathize with them and sort of like, you know, take responsibility in some respect.
[00:14:22]  But Alice Nathan had like nothing.
[00:14:24]  She was just, she flat out said, like, you have not taken responsibility.
[00:14:28]  And for that reason, you know, I'm, I, you know, I feel okay or whatever to, you know, go above the sentencing guidelines, which we can get into To sentence you to a longer prison sentence.
[00:14:44]  Yes.
[00:14:45]  And she is, I want to be clear here.
[00:14:46]  She is getting sent to the Orange Is the New Black prison in Danbury, Connecticut.
[00:14:51]  On TV.
[00:14:52]  I will.
[00:14:52]  Yes.
[00:14:52]  It is a minimum security prison situation.
[00:14:54]  Well, we don't know if she's being sent if she is being sent there, but we do know that that was the recommendation.
[00:15:00]  Yeah, that was the recommendation at least.
[00:15:01]  Yeah.
[00:15:03]  Which is cool because I hit that place up all the time.
[00:15:06]  I do a lot of mutual aid for like, you know, some of the cooler chicks in there.
[00:15:13]  But yeah, it's, it seems like Nathan was really not having her excuse about money, too.
[00:15:20]  You know, I saw it reported that her lawyers were basically saying that she didn't get any Epstein's money in reference to the $10 million that Judge Nathan says that Ghelane got.
[00:15:31]  And Nathan kind of goes back in and interrupts and is like, actually, it looks like she did get the money.
[00:15:35]  You're just talking about the will money.
[00:15:36]  This is money from something else.
[00:15:38]  Yeah, they were trying to kind of like scoot around some of that.
[00:15:42]  It was a little confusing.
[00:15:45]  And it seemed to be that part of that there's a bunch of financial statements alongside some of the documents that were filed.
[00:15:54]  But they are not public information.
[00:15:57]  And so we do not have access to that.
[00:15:59]  But it does sound like, you know, yeah, definitely trying to scoot around some of the financial requirements.
[00:16:07]  So what were the victim statements like?
[00:16:11]  These were pretty tough.
[00:16:12]  I can imagine.
[00:16:13]  We heard from four victims in person and then one victim via their lawyer, Virginia Rubberts.
[00:16:23]  A statement from her was read by her lawyer.
[00:16:26]  We heard from Annie Farmer first, who, of course, also testified in the trial.
[00:16:36]  We heard from Kate, who also testified in the trial.
[00:16:39]  That's a pseudonym that she went under, Kate.
[00:16:42]  Sarah Ransome, who was present for a lot of the trial, but was not part of the case, like wasn't a victim in the case.
[00:16:53]  And then we heard from Elizabeth Stein, who came forward at the end of the trial.
[00:17:02]  I believe like maybe one of the last days of the trial, came forward to tell her story.
[00:17:08]  And I had never heard the details of it.
[00:17:13]  She actually, I mean, this is what this is kind of crazy.
[00:17:16]  She was present for almost every day of the trial.
[00:17:21]  And I remember seeing her there.
[00:17:22]  And I believe you and I have both spoken to her.
[00:17:26]  We did not know that she was a victim of Jeffrey Epstein and Gilway Maxwell's.
[00:17:31]  That was never, she didn't never disclose that.
[00:17:33]  She just said that she was coming up from Philly.
[00:17:36]  Remember that.
[00:17:37]  Yeah, every day for the trial.
[00:17:39]  And she mentioned that during her statement to the court and kind of went through her story.
[00:17:46]  You know, each and every one of these women were incredibly moving and, you know, at different points in their stories or in their statements, rather, like, I mean, broke down, you know?
[00:18:01]  A lot of them faced Ghillaine directly, addressed her directly.
[00:18:07]  Ghillaine, for her part, you know, really didn't look at any of the girls, which I think is, you know, not surprising.
[00:18:16]  She really like looked away.
[00:18:18]  She was kind of like looking directly into a corner for some of it or towards her lawyer, Christian Everdell, which made it very kind of like awkward.
[00:18:29]  Obviously, I mean, there's like, you know, this girl, like this woman telling these like harrowing stories on the verge of tears.
[00:18:38]  And then, you know, a foot away, Ghillaine Maxwell is sitting there, just not looking at her.
[00:18:43]  I mean, it was just, you know, a really kind of like tough scene.
[00:18:48]  Now, Elizabeth Stein says that she met Ghillain at Bendles, actually.
[00:18:56]  She was working as a young girl at Bendles while she was at FIT.
[00:19:03]  What's Bendles?
[00:19:05]  Oh, Henry Bendles.
[00:19:06]  It's a, oh, Mary Bendel's.
[00:19:08]  It's a Upper East Side department store.
[00:19:10]  It's one of the Bendles, Varney's, R.I.P. Bergdorf, Blue Me's.
[00:19:15]  Wow, R.I.P. sounds a little.
[00:19:20]  Bendles is the one with the chocolate stripes.
[00:19:22]  So weirdly enough, actually, the woman sitting in front of me had a bag from Bendles under her seat.
[00:19:31]  It was a very weird little cosmic gift.
[00:19:33]  Synchronicity.
[00:19:34]  Yeah.
[00:19:37]  So she said that she was working at Bendles.
[00:19:40]  Ghillaine came in.

=== Ghillaine Finally Helps (04:17) ===

[00:19:41]  The girl who usually helped Ghillain wasn't there.
[00:19:44]  And so she helped Ghillain.
[00:19:47]  She immediately started talking with her and, you know, gabbing about in that way that we've heard from so many women like Ghillaine would talk to these girls when she was trying to kind of group, you know, approach them to eventually groom them for Epstein.
[00:20:04]  She, Ghillaine mentions to Elizabeth that, you know, she says, oh, my boss is very close friends with the owner of Bendles, who at the time, Bendles was owned by a little company called The Limited, aka Les Wexner.
[00:20:25]  And she said, you know, I can intro you to Epstein, you know, maybe we can get you a better job.
[00:20:33]  That kind of situation unfolded.
[00:20:37]  She said that when she went to go meet Ghillane, she was like, I don't know, it was like a little unclear.
[00:20:44]  She was delivering clothes that Ghillaine had just bought from Bendles to a hotel that Ghillane was at.
[00:20:52]  She approached her in the hotel bar.
[00:20:55]  Epstein was there.
[00:20:56]  It kind of went from there.
[00:20:59]  And it was that night that the first like sexual assault happened.
[00:21:04]  She said it was, you know, from that point on that the relationship sort of, I mean, I don't want to say developed, but just kind of grew from there.
[00:21:13]  It wasn't the first time that Epstein and Ghillain assaulted her.
[00:21:17]  And they ended up getting her a new job position at Bendles, which she felt uncomfortable with because she knew, and I think this was a quote from her, that like what the modus operandi was, was that they were going to give a gift or a favor and demand sex in return.
[00:21:34]  She says she quit and she moved.
[00:21:37]  She ended up working at Bloomingdale's after she finished her degree at FIT and that Ghillane found her there afterwards.
[00:21:45]  And it was at that point that she sort of, after a lot of what sounds like kind of pleading and prodding, that she finally acquiesced and they ended up spending more time with Ghillaine and Epstein, even though she felt uncomfortable, obviously, went and spent time in Florida.
[00:22:05]  For that reason, she got fired from Bloomingdales.
[00:22:07]  She said that she was trafficked to friends of Ghillane and Jeffries.
[00:22:13]  She said, things happened that were so traumatizing, I can't even speak of them.
[00:22:18]  And I, you know, her voice is shaking.
[00:22:20]  We've never heard from her up until this moment.
[00:22:23]  It was, you know, it was quite shocking.
[00:22:27]  It's been some time since we've, you know, just to kind of like paint a picture, you know, it's been six months since you or I have been in this like courtroom, you know, and heard from these girls.
[00:22:40]  And it was kind of like we're right back here.
[00:22:42]  Now Ghillane is hearing from them.
[00:22:45]  This girl hasn't had her, you know, this woman hasn't had her moment yet.
[00:22:50]  And she finally, you know, is finally getting a chance to speak to her directly.
[00:22:54]  And it was just, it was, it was really overwhelming.
[00:22:59]  Yeah.
[00:22:59]  I mean, during the trial, we heard, I mean, there were several days where we heard really intense testimony.
[00:23:05]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:07]  And, you know, it's one thing to hear, to hear this or to read the stuff and to, you know, to have knowledge of it, but it's another thing to hear actually from the mouths of the victims and to sort of be able to witness the actual emotion, their faces and their voices, you know, while they're giving this kind of testimony and while they're telling their stories.
[00:23:24]  It can be, it can be, you know, an intense experience, obviously for the listener, but it can be a really intense and traumatizing experience for the victims.
[00:23:33]  Yeah.
[00:23:34]  And for Elizabeth, I mean, she, you know, she said that, you know, after these, this time with, with Jeffrey and Ghelane, that she just had one of many emotional and mental breakdowns.
[00:23:50]  And from there, she was, you know, hospitalized.
[00:23:53]  She was in and out of hospitals.
[00:23:54]  She had physical symptoms.
[00:23:56]  Her trauma was like manifesting physical symptoms.

=== Cinderella's Leather Shoe (02:44) ===

[00:23:59]  She was, you know, like.
[00:24:03]  doctors couldn't really figure out what was wrong with her.
[00:24:06]  Then she was finally diagnosed with this rare kind of pain disorder.
[00:24:10]  And there's, you know, she said to the court, she's like, and finally, like, I knew I wasn't crazy.
[00:24:15]  I was hurt.
[00:24:17]  Yeah.
[00:24:18]  And it was, you know, she says this is, this came 25 years after I first met them.
[00:24:23]  Like I lost my entire life to these people.
[00:24:26]  And I'm like begging the court to take that into account and send her away for her life because she has had her life and it's time that I've had mine.
[00:24:36]  Yeah.
[00:24:37]  Wow.
[00:24:40]  Well, speaking of that, you know, Ghelane got 20 years.
[00:24:46]  You know, she is what, she's 60 years old.
[00:24:50]  Yes.
[00:24:50]  Bobby made a point.
[00:24:53]  Bobby, you know, I got to say, Bobby was in her summer shoes, not cowboy boots.
[00:25:00]  You know, I'm always going to make a note of this, but some sort of like pointy, my girls will know, J. Pliner style, like almost, I want to say like Indian inspired slipper, like a leather slipper.
[00:25:18]  I'm going to be honest with you here.
[00:25:20]  Don't know what most of those words meant.
[00:25:23]  Okay.
[00:25:23]  What I'm picturing here is a leather sort of like, who's the lady who loses the shoe in like the myth?
[00:25:31]  Cinderella?
[00:25:32]  Cinderella shoe?
[00:25:33]  Like a leather Cinderella shoe.
[00:25:35]  Let me finish.
[00:25:36]  A leather Cinderella type shoe, but with one large oversized, like knotted leather thong between her big toe and her index toe on both, but also no back, like Sarappas.
[00:25:49]  Actually, I don't know what a Sarappa is.
[00:25:51]  Wait, like a flip-flop?
[00:25:53]  Yeah, but like a princess style, like, but also sort of Southwestern flip-flip-flop.
[00:26:00]  That sounds very weird, but also not at all close to what she was wearing.
[00:26:04]  But I think she was wearing that, but okay.
[00:26:07]  I like your energy.
[00:26:08]  And so I think that we should, we should act as if she was wearing those.
[00:26:13]  Yeah.
[00:26:14]  She was also wearing, she was also wearing a poncho.
[00:26:21]  No, she was wearing, she had her high-collared white shirt on.
[00:26:28]  You know, her swoosh of lavender, cool lavender blonde hair.
[00:26:36]  Um, yeah, she was, she was real fiery today.
[00:26:39]  Bobby was there.
[00:26:40]  Uh, like I mentioned, Christian Everdell was there.

=== David's Confession (14:29) ===

[00:26:43]  Classic.
[00:26:44]  No Pagliacci.
[00:26:47]  He has unfortunately been executed, actually, which was really tough for me to hear, but you know what?
[00:26:54]  Happens to basically every Italian.
[00:26:57]  Yeah, no Pagliacci, no Laura Menninger.
[00:27:00]  So just the two of them.
[00:27:04]  But yeah, Bobby was real fired up.
[00:27:08]  She was, she came out afterwards to give a little press conference and she kind of like, you know, saunters over.
[00:27:16]  Everyone's like huddled around.
[00:27:18]  And I got to say, these YouTube guys have got to cool it.
[00:27:22]  Everyone is like trying to get their little smartphones up in the grill of Bobby Sternheim.
[00:27:30]  So they're all surrounding her, right?
[00:27:32]  So she's facing directly the cameras and the microphones, right?
[00:27:36]  Okay, that's classico style.
[00:27:38]  That's fine.
[00:27:39]  Then we've got the riffraff, social media vultures, president company included, you know, surrounding her on either side.
[00:27:50]  But these like jokers next to me, left and right, jokers on the left of me, jokers on the right, got their arms, their long ass stretch Armstrong arms out, holding their smartphones, like, excuse me, getting these videos.
[00:28:03]  It's like, buddy, what is this video for?
[00:28:05]  First of all, you're not watching this later.
[00:28:07]  Second of all, someone's getting it on the big camera.
[00:28:10]  What are you uploading it to YouTube?
[00:28:12]  No one watches your YouTube.
[00:28:13]  No one cares.
[00:28:14]  My thing is, too, Liz is, I mean, to me, she's tall, but Liz is 4-1.
[00:28:20]  And if you have an arm in front, don't put your arm in front of a woman's face unless you say pardon my reach, in which case you can do it basically for as long as this guy with a mustache.
[00:28:31]  Hitler?
[00:28:34]  No, but he, no, he was like very rumpled in what would have usually been kind of charming, but wasn't because he like left out of, I don't know, behind me and was like, oh, and like put his arm out with his stupid fucking iPhone, like get trying to like, oh, gotta get Bobby like from the side.
[00:28:54]  It's like, it's, I can see what you're recording.
[00:28:56]  It's a horrible video.
[00:28:58]  And it's like, you're in my face.
[00:28:59]  I can't hear what she's saying.
[00:29:00]  It's like, who is this for?
[00:29:02]  No one's buying it.
[00:29:04]  And no one's watching your YouTube.
[00:29:05]  Get your shit out of my face.
[00:29:07]  Yeah.
[00:29:07]  Get your shit out of Liz's face.
[00:29:09]  This is next time we go to the courthouse.
[00:29:12]  I'm bringing a gun.
[00:29:16]  But yes.
[00:29:17]  So Bobby.
[00:29:18]  So she comes, she comes out.
[00:29:20]  Everyone's surrounding her and she has a little speech.
[00:29:22]  She's reading off of a piece of paper, which I got to say.
[00:29:27]  Unprofessional, it's a little, you know, it's kind of ruining the moment.
[00:29:30]  You want to like darrow the shit up?
[00:29:32]  You can't use, he didn't have a paper, he didn't have cue cards.
[00:29:35]  Clarence Darrow couldn't read.
[00:29:40]  She, yeah, so I didn't like that, but she, you know, she immediately was like, you know, we have been, you know, we have been very respectful of the court.
[00:29:51]  We have, you know, kept silent on a lot of things that have happened that you don't know about, which didn't say.
[00:29:59]  But we shall be silent no longer.
[00:30:01]  Like, you know, they are filing appeals, they're appealing everything.
[00:30:04]  They think it's a travesty, blah, And she did mention something very interesting where she was like, you know, if you want a story, if you need a little like, you know, if you need to go follow the lead somewhere, check out the BOP, the Bureau of Prisons, because something funny is going on there.
[00:30:26]  Well, that's very interesting because in the past few days, as we reported in our last episode, Ghelane Maxwell has been remanded to the loony bin in the jail.
[00:30:37]  Basically, they put her on Suicide Watch.
[00:30:39]  Yes.
[00:30:39]  Or Suey Dubs, as they call it, in New York.
[00:30:42]  They know they do.
[00:30:43]  They do.
[00:30:44]  I learned that in the streets.
[00:30:45]  And she has been placed on Suicide Watch.
[00:30:49]  She is describing both vague and specific threats against her life.
[00:30:54]  It seems like maybe intimating some of them could be coming from prison officials or Bureau of Prison officials.
[00:30:59]  Some of them could be coming from fellow inmates.
[00:31:02]  You know, it's not uncommon for people in jail to be put in Suicide Watch before they're handed down their sentence.
[00:31:11]  So, you know, I'm not reading too much into it.
[00:31:13]  You know, I posted a, I posted, or one of my many employees and friends, same thing to me, actually.
[00:31:20]  We're all family.
[00:31:21]  Posted on Twitter the article saying that she's on Suicide Watch.
[00:31:25]  And all these people are like, RIP, she's going to die in the next few days.
[00:31:28]  I don't obviously, I don't think they're about to kill her before she gets sentenced.
[00:31:32]  You know what I mean?
[00:31:32]  That's a little ridiculous.
[00:31:35]  But I do think that I would like someday to know exactly what went down with Ghelane in jail because I do think that they definitely singled her out in many, many, many ways because of whatever happened to Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:31:52]  His, let's say, alleged suicide, mysterious death in jail.
[00:31:58]  And, you know, Maya Culpa, I made the prediction that they would be able to make her retarded somehow before the trial, which I was wrong about.
[00:32:08]  Were you though?
[00:32:09]  I don't know.
[00:32:10]  Give me, I need to talk to her because I can figure it out.
[00:32:14]  That's got me out of a lot of trouble before.
[00:32:17]  Some say I have the gift, but like it's like the shining from the movie The Shining.
[00:32:22]  You know what, though?
[00:32:23]  Allison Nathan brought this up, not that second point of yours, but the first one.
[00:32:28]  She's like, Brace as the shining gift.
[00:32:30]  No, she didn't, none of this.
[00:32:32]  She didn't bring up any of that, but she did bring up that actually Ghillain had probably better treatment because of her special status than other inmates.
[00:32:47]  Because also because it was during COVID, right?
[00:32:50]  And so Allison Nathan brought that up because she was trying to refute some of what the defense was arguing for saying that, you know, she was getting all this terrible treatment.
[00:32:59]  And she and Allison Nathan was like, actually, you know, you being away from all of these inmates during COVID, you actually probably got a better deal than a lot of them, you know, a lot of the normal guys.
[00:33:13]  Yeah.
[00:33:13]  I mean, listen, the second they let her out of fucking, I mean, I don't know.
[00:33:17]  I don't know if I would call it solitary, but they let her out of, they let her into gen pop.
[00:33:24]  She immediately was like, people are trying to kill me.
[00:33:26]  Yeah.
[00:33:27]  And so I don't know.
[00:33:29]  I mean, who knows?
[00:33:30]  The thing is, for all you out there, for anybody who out there isn't a barhead, which is like a jail fan enthusiast, prison's actually usually a lot better than jail in many ways because there's more stuff to do.
[00:33:45]  You have a little bit more, I don't know if I would call it freedom, but depending on the prison, of course, like activities.
[00:33:50]  There's more activities.
[00:33:51]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:33:53]  You can start raising pressicanaris dogs.
[00:33:56]  There's a lot of people.
[00:33:57]  There's always Islam.
[00:33:58]  There's all, oh my, dude, fucking Ghillain.
[00:34:01]  I don't even, I don't want to think about it because I would, that would be incredible.
[00:34:07]  But yeah, I mean, you can also write a book, you know, after maybe you try to do a coup and maybe the book gets really popular.
[00:34:18]  And then now people get mad at you when you're clearly reading it on the bus or something like that.
[00:34:25]  You know, there's a lot more to do in prison.
[00:34:27]  So who knows how she'll be doing then?
[00:34:29]  What I'm curious is, remember that guy at the end of the trial, the white-haired gentleman, very tall from, I think it was ABC or NBC, one of the BCs.
[00:34:37]  Yeah, I didn't see him there today.
[00:34:38]  He sprinted over to her and was actually able to talk to her, unlike basically anybody else during the entirety of the trial, where the scuttlebutt was that he was setting up an interview, which has clearly not manifested itself.
[00:34:49]  Although, again, six months, maybe they're making a documentary or something.
[00:34:54]  But I do wonder what her experience in prison is going to be like.
[00:34:57]  And it does seem like she is about to appeal as well.
[00:34:59]  Obviously, she's going to appeal.
[00:35:01]  Oh, yeah.
[00:35:02]  They've got those all ready to go.
[00:35:05]  And speaking of the appeal, old favorite who I think will be featured heavily in the appeals process.
[00:35:13]  Oh, yeah.
[00:35:14]  Juror Scotty David, Erstweil juror, the rogue juror, who, if listeners don't remember, went after the verdict, went immediately to the press.
[00:35:31]  And not just the press, all press, any press.
[00:35:34]  All the press you could get.
[00:35:36]  Scotty David, all over it.
[00:35:38]  Yeah, call him a bench because he was press in.
[00:35:42]  He, um, did that one, that one made sense, right?
[00:35:45]  Let me know if that one.
[00:35:45]  I like it when you do them, even when they don't, it's better when they don't make sense because you know, also, it shows how creative and quick you are.
[00:35:53]  Check this out: call him a little devilish character who hangs out by a magician because he was an impress.
[00:36:02]  Okay, that didn't that one made sense, but it just got in this context.
[00:36:05]  You always got to go with the first one.
[00:36:07]  You're always great first go.
[00:36:09]  Yeah, second go.
[00:36:11]  Yeah, I don't have a good refractory period.
[00:36:13]  So he was there.
[00:36:15]  You know, what's funny is he was there.
[00:36:17]  Jacob, the first thing Jacob texts me after he gets out, friend of the pod, Jacob.
[00:36:22]  Friend of the pod.
[00:36:23]  Yeah.
[00:36:23]  Jacob Champs.
[00:36:24]  Yeah.
[00:36:24]  I'm not going to try.
[00:36:25]  I can never say it.
[00:36:26]  You know what?
[00:36:26]  It sounds like it's one of those that's pronounced something like that.
[00:36:30]  When I saw him, by the way, he said, where's your better half?
[00:36:33]  Oh, he knows we're married.
[00:36:37]  I thought that was very cute.
[00:36:39]  Oh, my God.
[00:36:40]  Well, anyways, he texts me.
[00:36:41]  It's like Scotty David of the trial in a fucking camouflage hoodie.
[00:36:45]  So, Liz, he wore a camo hoodie to the trial.
[00:36:48]  Yes.
[00:36:48]  Now, it feels very Scotty David to think that literal camouflage would camouflage you.
[00:36:53]  Was it like urban camo where it's like blue and purple?
[00:36:56]  Or was it like no?
[00:36:58]  It was like camo camo.
[00:36:59]  Oh my god.
[00:37:00]  A real tree.
[00:37:01]  Yeah.
[00:37:02]  He was trying to keep a low proof.
[00:37:06]  And yet everyone was like, hey, isn't that Scotty David?
[00:37:09]  Because it was Scotty David.
[00:37:11]  Everyone knew.
[00:37:12]  Not only were you in like all the papers and the tabloids being like, I'm the juror.
[00:37:17]  We all covered the trial.
[00:37:19]  You were on the jury.
[00:37:21]  Yeah.
[00:37:22]  It's true.
[00:37:23]  We saw you.
[00:37:24]  Yes.
[00:37:25]  Yeah.
[00:37:26]  It's I, Scotty David, God love him.
[00:37:29]  You know, God bless him.
[00:37:30]  It's funny because there was a lot, and I get this.
[00:37:32]  There was a lot of people being like, well, maybe this was like a setup.
[00:37:36]  But you spend two seconds looking at Scotty David.
[00:37:40]  The man does not seem, I'm going to say this in the most charitable way I can.
[00:37:44]  If that guy's a Patsy, he is the Patsiest Patsy that there ever was.
[00:37:49]  He's like the second tier pet.
[00:37:51]  He's a Patsy of a Patsy.
[00:37:53]  And frankly, I mean, so far, the Maxwell team's legal maneuverings involving Monsieur David have not gone very well.
[00:38:04]  I know.
[00:38:04]  I wonder if that's because they're saving the big guns for the next go or they knew they weren't going to get anywhere with Alice and Nathan.
[00:38:11]  I got to say, it does seem a bit crazy, the whole thing.
[00:38:15]  Here's hoping it obviously here's hoping that it doesn't go anywhere.
[00:38:19]  Yeah.
[00:38:21]  But I don't know.
[00:38:22]  Yeah, Nathan did not like Maxwell, but maybe the next judge will be.
[00:38:26]  You know, it's interesting because there was a whole, you know, we talked about it on the last episode.
[00:38:31]  The, you know, the defense was arguing for the 2003 sentencing guidelines.
[00:38:37]  Yes.
[00:38:37]  And the prosecution was arguing for the 2004 sentencing guidelines.
[00:38:42]  This hinged on whether or not the abuse took place in November and December of 2004.
[00:38:51]  And it specifically had to do with Carol, the, with Carolyn.
[00:38:54]  It was, that was the charge.
[00:38:57]  And over and over again, Alice and Nathan basically was giving the government opportunity.
[00:39:05]  She was like, yes, but do you have evidence, any other evidence or any new evidence showing that November and December of 2004, the conspiracy was happening at that time.
[00:39:22]  And the government really, the only thing they could produce was memo pads that had not specific dates, but like early November dates at the top and later November dates at the bottom and later December dates, but no specific date with Carolyn's name.
[00:39:43]  And it was so funny because Allison Nathan was like trying to give the government like every opportunity to help them, like to help them out basically, and signaling like, my hands are tied.
[00:39:56]  You're not giving me anything.
[00:39:58]  And so she did agree with the defense that the 2003 sentencing guidelines had to stand.
[00:40:07]  And that they, you know, that she had to kind of like use those as she had to kind of, you know, I don't know what agree with them.
[00:40:15]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:15]  They had to use those as the guideline.
[00:40:17]  Yeah, which, you know, she ended up going over those guidelines, which she can do.
[00:40:21]  And she had, she explained all those reasons.
[00:40:25]  But it was interesting because I, I, you know, was watching this whole exchange and I just immediately remembered.
[00:40:30]  I was just like, fuck, the government's case was so fucking bad.
[00:40:34]  Awful.
[00:40:35]  And it gets lost, you know, and I kind of had forgotten just how many, how difficult this case was for them to put together and communicate, how complicated the charges were and how layered it was and how you know it, how close it felt at so many times of uh to to to, to falling apart.
[00:40:57]  And this was like yet another moment where I was just like, oh and then you know, 20 years baby, she'll get out 20 years 80, 80 years old, Which, I gotta be honest, not a life sentence.

=== Government's Case Flawed (02:51) ===

[00:41:13]  Not a life sentence.
[00:41:14]  Still feels like that old bag could keep kicking for a long time after that.
[00:41:18]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:41:19]  I mean, hell, we'll probably still be doing the pod by then.
[00:41:24]  We can go to her parole hearings.
[00:41:26]  What if she's out in 10 for good behavior?
[00:41:28]  Did you imagine we do like Ghelane trial episode 3,000?
[00:41:34]  It wouldn't be 3,000.
[00:41:35]  It'd be like 34,862.
[00:41:39]  We're all bald somehow.
[00:41:41]  I wouldn't be bald.
[00:41:43]  Why would I be bald?
[00:41:44]  I don't know.
[00:41:45]  Microplastics.
[00:41:48]  It's and it's and such.
[00:41:50]  No.
[00:41:51]  Ginkgo Biloba deficiency.
[00:41:54]  What?
[00:41:55]  Not enough impresses.
[00:41:59]  So, I mean, we really went over this, I believe, on the last final episode of our trial coverage and throughout the trial as well.
[00:42:09]  But it bears repeating that, of course, Ghelane Maxwell is going to be doing time, hard time, for her role in the Jeffrey Epstein, Ghelane Maxwell trafficking Cabal.
[00:42:26]  But one thing that's missing, or one of the many things that's missing, or a plurality of things that are missing, are any actual people who really participated in this stuff.
[00:42:37]  You know, from what you could glean, if you know nothing about this except directly only, actually, no, even if you listen in court, you would know that there were other people involved.
[00:42:48]  But, you know, it really seems like the case is like Ghelane Maxwell trafficked these girls to Jeffrey Epstein, and that's it.
[00:42:58]  Nobody else had any involvement.
[00:43:00]  Case closed, put her away, throw away the key.
[00:43:03]  Look at we got justice.
[00:43:04]  But that's not the case.
[00:43:07]  No.
[00:43:08]  Traffic to who?
[00:43:10]  Exactly.
[00:43:11]  I mean, there is a whole host of people out there: world leaders, politicians.
[00:43:17]  That's kind of the same thing.
[00:43:18]  Well, some of those politicians aren't worldly.
[00:43:20]  Yeah.
[00:43:21]  Because they're bad politicians like New Mexico, you know.
[00:43:25]  Celebrities, scientists.
[00:43:28]  You know, the list goes on.
[00:43:30]  And, you know, you see some little flare-ups of this stuff.
[00:43:33]  Bill Gates, you know, getting his divorce basically sped through by his wife using that stuff as an excuse.
[00:43:43]  Jean-Luc Brunel dying mysteriously in prison with almost no follow-up, no idea what really happened there.
[00:43:52]  But really, it's like this has been, you know, for as big a deal as this case was very managed.
[00:43:59]  And it was kind of kept as small as it could possibly be kept for being such a large operation.

=== Big Deal, Small Flare-Ups (01:20) ===

[00:44:04]  Yeah.
[00:44:05]  And I think, I mean, I think that's definitely true.
[00:44:08]  And I think that there are a lot of things about this case that we're never going to get any kind of real answers about or any kind of real closure on.
[00:44:18]  But I think that for the four women who spoke today, the four victims who were part of this case, and for the hundreds, if not thousands of women who were abused and trafficked by Gillette Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein, like to them, it isn't a huge conspiracy with a bunch of like links to put together.
[00:44:40]  I mean, it is, but also that's not how it relates to them because to them, it's just, you know, getting some modicum of justice for what the like horrific abuse and trauma that they've endured.
[00:44:56]  Yeah.
[00:44:56]  Yeah.
[00:44:57]  And I think that if anything, at least having that, you know, I think is something that everyone can understand.
[00:45:05]  Well said, Liz.
[00:45:07]  And you know what you're going to say really good right now?
[00:45:10]  My name is Liz.
[00:45:11]  My name is Brace.
[00:45:14]  We, of course, joined by producer Young Chomsky.
[00:45:18]  And the podcast was called True Anon.
[00:45:22]  We'll see you next time.
[00:45:24]  Bye-bye.