True Anon Truth Feed - 👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 12 👁️
Aired: 2021-12-18
Duration: 01:06:24


=== Chamomile and Loneliness (05:08) ===

[00:00:00]  You want to lead us in your sickest voice?
[00:00:02]  No.
[00:00:03]  Well, fine.
[00:00:04]  I'm my mellifulous.
[00:00:06]  Mollifulous?
[00:00:07]  How do you pronounce that?
[00:00:08]  I don't have no idea.
[00:00:10]  Mollifulous.
[00:00:12]  In my mellifulous, sonorous tones, I'll say Ghelane Maxwell trial, day 12.
[00:00:20]  Almost over.
[00:00:27]  So unfortunately, Ghislaine Maxwell today was rearrested, but this time by Donald Trump's personal Praetorian guard.
[00:00:53]  And she was taken to the island of Cuba, to the naval vase of Guantanamo Bay, where she was hung by her feet and then paraded around by Trump, who was shirtless, who got her via hot brands to confess the locations of thousands of underground tunnels crisscrossing the US United States of America.
[00:01:13]  I can't believe I missed this.
[00:01:14]  Yes.
[00:01:15]  So, ladies and gentlemen, listen to Liz.
[00:01:18]  I know.
[00:01:19]  I was feeling sick today, so I didn't, being the responsible person, I didn't go into court today.
[00:01:25]  Although I did follow along with everyone's favorite live tweeters of the case, not at TrueNOMPOD, unfortunately, because Brace doesn't have tweeting privileges in the courtroom or on Twitter.
[00:01:39]  So I'll have some familiarity about what happened, but we are so committed to bringing you coverage of this fantastic, bizarre, very short sex trafficking trial.
[00:01:52]  Yes.
[00:01:53]  That I'm still here.
[00:01:54]  So hello, everyone.
[00:01:55]  I'm Liz.
[00:01:56]  My name is Brace.
[00:01:57]  And of course, we have with us today Dr. Fauci.
[00:02:00]  And producing this episode is Young Chomsky.
[00:02:03]  The podcast is called Troubanon.
[00:02:05]  Has anyone taken Young Fauci?
[00:02:07]  Young Fauci.
[00:02:08]  Whoa.
[00:02:10]  That would be good.
[00:02:11]  That would be good.
[00:02:12]  Well, speaking of Young, we have injected Young Elizabeth here with a Hitlerian cocktail of vitamin B and various amphetamine salts and methamphetamine.
[00:02:26]  So she is mostly just chamomile.
[00:02:29]  Just really, it's chamomile.
[00:02:30]  That's how you top it off.
[00:02:31]  A little bit of chamomile to you got to get the equilibrium.
[00:02:35]  But we have in front of us today, basically, you know, as listeners will know, we did a very short episode yesterday.
[00:02:42]  And we'll basically be summing up the big points from yesterday and getting to today because all in all, truth be told, day and a half defense.
[00:02:52]  Here's the thing.
[00:02:52]  We didn't do an episode yesterday because we were like, what the hell is the defense doing?
[00:02:56]  We need to get a sense of like what if they're really just going to present a full defense case in two days, like it makes more sense to present a podcast that presents the kind of total borders of like the you know full borders, full spectrum look at what they're presenting.
[00:03:12]  And okay, so mea copa, mea copa, there we go.
[00:03:18]  Um, wasn't in court today, however, this is my impression based on your very judgmental, yeah.
[00:03:24]  And then, absolutely, um, what I read today and what we talked about is that here's my question: What does the defense have a case?
[00:03:35]  Listen, I'll tell you what, the chatter going around court, first of all, no one talk to me, talk to me, give me the scuttle butt.
[00:03:43]  I was my court cafe Lorenzo.
[00:03:45]  I, oh, first of all, I don't even give a star, Lorenzo, but I get there, I get there, I slept in a little bit today.
[00:03:51]  I, I, and so I get there like a classic move when I'm not there, of course.
[00:03:55]  You can't have that, you can't have the well, you know, you know, every other day of this trial, by the way, I got text updates 7:45 to 8:15, depending on how late Brace was sleeping in, saying, I'm heading to the court.
[00:04:09]  I'm heading to court, and I was so sad I didn't get one this morning.
[00:04:12]  This is yes, I'm texting Liz that I'm heading to court because always there before Liz, 100% of the time there, except for the first week, except for the first week.
[00:04:22]  Yeah, yeah, well, that's you know, because the first week I was actually staying close, but then the camel that I ride to the third grade Marshall Courthouse was also had a had a busted knee.
[00:04:32]  Um, so today I get there rather, I mean, I late for me.
[00:04:37]  I got there at 8:30, and I don't like to get there after 8:30 because that's usually when the good room fills up.
[00:04:45]  Um, and I get there, and I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna, you're like, no, you're gonna be in the crazy room, I'm gonna be in the crazy guy room.
[00:04:51]  And no, in fact, there's not even enough crazy guys to have a crazy guy room.
[00:04:56]  There's not enough like other more normal people to have a normal person room.
[00:05:00]  There's everyone has to be together in this.
[00:05:04]  It's just like, yeah, we're all everyone's waiting in line for COVID tests.
[00:05:07]  Exactly.

=== Interviewee Tone Revealed (09:56) ===

[00:05:08]  And so there was practically nobody there today.
[00:05:12]  It was lonely.
[00:05:13]  Was it lonely?
[00:05:14]  Well, no, you know, everyone I know, most people I know were there.
[00:05:18]  Not everyone.
[00:05:19]  You and Brian there.
[00:05:20]  It was a lot.
[00:05:21]  There was actually a lot of people that were not there today.
[00:05:23]  But so the, I was immediately sort of shocked by that.
[00:05:30]  And then the just this, the scuttlebutt going around was like the rest of the day as the, as she presented more and more of the case was, how much is fucking Ghulane paying these people?
[00:05:42]  Because it is way too much.
[00:05:45]  Well, that's a very good question because we know that Pagliachi has been her lawyer for a very long time.
[00:05:52]  Yes.
[00:05:54]  Yes.
[00:05:54]  Yeah.
[00:05:54]  And has been representing her for a very long time.
[00:05:56]  There seems to be a, and we know that, like, um, uh, what's her name?
[00:06:01]  Leah Safian, who's the family's lawyer, is, of course, there present and is, like, you know, constantly, you know, passing notes and little, little like mentions to these people.
[00:06:12]  I have, I have a family affair vibe in the room for sure.
[00:06:15]  Yes, yeah.
[00:06:16]  Definitely get the sense that they're all secretly cheating on their spouses with each other.
[00:06:21]  But yeah, it was, it was, it was a fucking mess, baby.
[00:06:25]  I'll tell you what.
[00:06:26]  It didn't get any clearer from yesterday about exactly what their strategy is because the problem is here is that Jeffrey Epstein, not exactly the most sterling name out there.
[00:06:36]  Not the name that you want hanging on on a shingle next to yours.
[00:06:40]  And yet still Sterling Silver hanging on his door, Jay.
[00:06:45]  Yes, and in Liz's address book.
[00:06:48]  But the weird thing today was, and with yesterday, is both having these people who worked for Epstein and in some cases, in one particular case rather, dated Epstein testify, but they can't really testify that Epstein was this awful, awful, bad rapist, you know, pedophile guy because Ghelane has not been able to separate herself from Epstein.
[00:07:15]  Well, that's like my question because I felt going into the defense, and we talked about this, that that was something they were really going to try to do was like, you know, there was all these different roads that they could kind of muddy the waters and make things a little bit blurry for the jury.
[00:07:29]  One of those was to, you know, basically implicitly say and probably sum up in closing statements or closing arguments that you can't try Ghelane for Jeffrey's crimes.
[00:07:39]  And so in order to do that, you need to separate the two of them.
[00:07:42]  But like, for example, we started with Kimberly yesterday, Kimberly with a C.
[00:07:47]  Yeah.
[00:07:47]  Which I want to just, again, pause on that because still marinating with that, still sitting with that, still giving that some space.
[00:07:56]  Not well.
[00:07:57]  Hey, listen, I'll tell you what.
[00:07:59]  I don't like what it portends.
[00:08:00]  Fire up the conquered jet and get this little chickadee over there to Istanbul and see how they pronounce Jimberly.
[00:08:07]  Give me a fucking brain.
[00:08:09]  They don't have a currency right now.
[00:08:10]  Put a ch on that.
[00:08:11]  Chimberly?
[00:08:12]  Yeah.
[00:08:12]  Well, first of all, the Turkish leader is very strong.
[00:08:17]  Now's the time to buy.
[00:08:19]  Someone's been dating a Mr. Inez Canter of Freedom.
[00:08:24]  Oh my God.
[00:08:25]  But yeah, so she goes up there and she was, I mean, I think we explained a little bit of this yesterday, but she was an employee at Jay Epstein Company.
[00:08:34]  Yeah, she interviewed in October of 1996.
[00:08:38]  She said she, there's a couple of funny details that I was trying to glean about her sensibility.
[00:08:42]  I'll get to the last one when we finish rounding up Kimberly's testimony.
[00:08:47]  But she said she moved to New York, that she grew up in California.
[00:08:50]  She needed like a new, you know, wanted to kind of like have a new lease on life, right?
[00:08:55]  Moves to New York, 1996.
[00:08:57]  She's 28.
[00:09:00]  And she responded to an ad in the paper, which I found like to be a very, very, very cute detail.
[00:09:06]  I liked that.
[00:09:07]  That it was a receptionist ad in the paper, executive assistant ad in the paper.
[00:09:11]  Yeah.
[00:09:11]  And I'm assuming like in the movies, she circled it with a big red pen.
[00:09:14]  100%.
[00:09:15]  And then picked up her rotary telephone.
[00:09:18]  Yeah.
[00:09:19]  which she was like leaning on the doorframe, twirling the phone cord with her fingers.
[00:09:25]  Yeah.
[00:09:25]  Maybe she's in her sweatpants.
[00:09:27]  She's got curlers in her hair.
[00:09:28]  Yep.
[00:09:28]  And she's scheduling an interview at Jay Epstein and Company.
[00:09:32]  She's like, oh, so what's a pedophile anyways?
[00:09:36]  But she does that.
[00:09:37]  And she says that the interview like was, I got very excited when she said it was a little unorthodox, but it wasn't unorthodox in the way that we would think.
[00:09:46]  She interviews with two lawyers.
[00:09:48]  It was for Jeffrey's legal team, which is confusing because she keeps referring to the first lawyer as Jeff, which then you automatically think is Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:09:57]  But it wasn't.
[00:09:57]  No.
[00:09:59]  And then she says when she kind of passed the test with the two lawyers, she's interviewed by Ghilane.
[00:10:05]  And she says Ghillane meets her in the back of a limo.
[00:10:09]  Yeah, this is a story that we've actually heard.
[00:10:11]  Not Kimberly with a C's specific story, but Ghillane meeting people in the back of limos and doing business in the back of limos while driving around town, presumably picking up Hermes scarves or whatever for Jeffrey, like in the double R Spada.
[00:10:25]  Hermes, but yeah.
[00:10:28]  Anyway, so she, yeah, she's like, oh, it's a little bit weird because we conducted the interview in the back of the limousine and she was just so busy running around town, running all these errands for Jeffrey.
[00:10:37]  But I passed the test and then, you know, finally I was allowed to interview with Jeff with Ghillain here being the gatekeeper, the sort of second tier to Jeffrey, kind of opening, opening doors into.
[00:10:50]  That's crazy.
[00:10:51]  She actually, during recross examination, she was asked to clarify the tier system and she said that Jeffrey Epstein was actually outside the tier system and that Jeffrey Epstein cannot be part of his own tier system.
[00:11:00]  But that's that's that's crazy.
[00:11:02]  So she must have been mistaken on that part.
[00:11:03]  One of my favorite things about this ongoing thing with the tier system, I'm just going to break it.
[00:11:07]  I'm going to break it wide open for everyone listening because everybody who's commented has agreed with me.
[00:11:12]  Well, that's not true.
[00:11:13]  But the, because we only got a couple more days of this, most likely, is that, you know, we do bits for the show.
[00:11:22]  I'm not committed to the tier system.
[00:11:24]  Brace and I, we like to have fun.
[00:11:26]  Wait, you're not committed to the tier system?
[00:11:30]  Are you trying to psych me out?
[00:11:33]  This is, ladies and gentlemen, this is what this is what the beginning.
[00:11:36]  This is what the first step of a walkback looks like.
[00:11:39]  So she starts working for Jeffrey on the legal team.
[00:11:43]  She says she was an executive assistant as part of the legal team.
[00:11:46]  Now, this is at the 457 Madison Avenue office.
[00:11:48]  Yes.
[00:11:49]  Which we actually haven't heard that much about this office, by the way.
[00:11:52]  Although everyone was working out of this office, apparently.
[00:11:54]  Yeah, big, there was a big crew there.
[00:11:57]  Yeah.
[00:11:57]  So she's part of the kind of like legal team.
[00:12:00]  She says there's like legal, there's like kind of a legal part of the office, then there's the finance part of the office, then there's kind of like where Ghillain is and all that.
[00:12:09]  And that Ghillaine comes into work every day and goes to her own office.
[00:12:14]  So she starts on the legal side.
[00:12:17]  And then one day she has to fill in for Ghillene's personal assistant.
[00:12:21]  And Ghillain just likes the job that Kimberly with a C, Miss Kimberly did so much that says, human resources at J. Epstein and Company.
[00:12:33]  Please make a little switcheroo.
[00:12:35]  I would like Miss Kimberly with a C to be my permanent assistant.
[00:12:40]  To me, that is fully perverted.
[00:12:44]  To see somebody with that name and not only hire them, but hire them to be your, well, your executive assistant is just astounding to me.
[00:12:54]  The thing is, she talks about Ghillain in the most, I mean, granted, she was the first witness, but on the defensive side, but it was, it was sort of shocking to me to actually hear somebody describe Ghillain in really just unabashed, with unabashed praise.
[00:13:16]  I mean, she was, she is clearly a big fan of Ghillain Maxwell's and in fact looked up to her.
[00:13:22]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:13:22]  She said that at one point, she said, I highly respected Ghillaine.
[00:13:25]  I kind of, no, not kind of, she corrected herself.
[00:13:28]  I look up to her.
[00:13:30]  It had the quality of, and I'm sure this was the same kind of, you know, she'd have rehearsed it many times because it felt like we were witnessing a job interview.
[00:13:38]  Like there was a sort of like flat but still effusive tone to the way that she was giving testimony that that to me was like, it was very well rehearsed.
[00:13:48]  Okay, fine.
[00:13:48]  That makes sense.
[00:13:48]  It's testimony.
[00:13:50]  But also it just seemed like, you know, I learned a lot on the job and it was really important for my life.
[00:13:56]  And I was, and it helped me through this milestone and that milestone to achieve all of my dreams in my career, you know, and personal essay, whatever, even though this is a grown woman.
[00:14:05]  Like it, it had this very like, I don't know, it wasn't quite fake.
[00:14:12]  It's not like it was fake, but just like, I don't know.
[00:14:16]  Yeah, like an interviewee tone.
[00:14:18]  It's hard to kind of put a finger on it.
[00:14:20]  So she also described, I mean, this is where things get a little funky too, with her descriptions of like Jeffrey and Ghillain's relationship.
[00:14:31]  And in fact, all of the defense witnesses, I mean, I'll be real.
[00:14:34]  Every witness has had basically a different answer as to what Jeffrey and Ghillain's relationship is.
[00:14:41]  But she says, like, oh, yeah, they were like kind of romantic, but they were, you know, she was like, his estate manager.
[00:14:48]  But, like, they were romantic.
[00:14:49]  There was something going on between them.
[00:14:51]  Yeah, she says that they were like, full, they, she's, she always refers to it as a couple.
[00:14:55]  They were a couple.
[00:14:56]  She has this kind of like, I don't know how to put it, this very like a professional executive secretary tone.
[00:15:03]  That's the best way I can put it.

=== Selena Middlefart's Office Partnership (04:45) ===

[00:15:05]  I hope that people can kind of glean what I'm trying to put out there.
[00:15:08]  But yeah, she would always say, you know, I don't know what they, I mean, they just seemed like they were a couple.
[00:15:14]  They were a couple.
[00:15:15]  They would show up the office at the same time.
[00:15:17]  They would leave the office at the same time.
[00:15:19]  But it was like not, it was like a, you know, let's say an unknown known that they were together but separate.
[00:15:30]  Um, like we've kind of detailed on the podcast.
[00:15:32]  And then it seems like it sort of takes a turn at you know, at some point in the late 90s, early 2000s.
[00:15:40]  Um, or at least that's what kind of Kimberly with a C reiterates that we've heard from other testimony.
[00:15:46]  But it's funny because at one point, the defense, um, when they're kind of going into the relationship, they ask uh Kimberly with a C if she knows someone named, and I am not sure I got this right, so I just want to make sure Selena Middlefart.
[00:16:02]  So I underlined fart and then put a question mark.
[00:16:06]  Let me show you my notes.
[00:16:08]  Middle fart, and then I crossed it out and I said Middleton because someone else at one point Selena Middleton.
[00:16:15]  So here's the thing: it's Selena Middlefart, and Middlefart Middlefart, Middle Fart, Selena Middlefart.
[00:16:23]  Selena Middlefart's name was brought up today when I believe, I believe it was Eva was asked about Selena Middlefart.
[00:16:35]  Oh my God.
[00:16:35]  Now, Selena Middlefart is a rich Norwegian woman who is the apparently the granddaughter of the founder of Middle Fart Cosmetics Company.
[00:16:44]  Ladies, wow, ladies, who's buying a Sephora Middle Fart Cosmetics?
[00:16:50]  Let me hear it.
[00:16:50]  Let me hear it in the comments.
[00:16:52]  If I am, all right, I don't know if they're still around.
[00:16:56]  The middle fart lash blast mascara.
[00:17:00]  If I am, if I am going into your bathroom to look for either you having too many SSRIs or you having drugs I can steal, and I find a bunch of middle fart cosmetics, I'm leaving your damn, I'm leaving your damn studio apartment before I get pink eye.
[00:17:19]  Yeah, that's like disgusting.
[00:17:22]  What is that?
[00:17:22]  I've never even heard of it.
[00:17:24]  Or disgusting.
[00:17:25]  It definitely sounds like weird, like, you know, like a weird European pharmacy cosmetic line.
[00:17:31]  Yes.
[00:17:32]  That's in like a tiny, tiny little pharmacy that's like, you know, tucked away on the street.
[00:17:36]  Okay.
[00:17:36]  But yeah, anyways, this is this is probably my first active reading of Wikipedia while we've ever done this podcast.
[00:17:43]  But she clearly, all right, someone she works who works for her wrote this.
[00:17:49]  Anyway, so rich lady.
[00:17:51]  Okay, so the defense brings Selena Middlefart up to Kimberly with the C.
[00:17:55]  Yes.
[00:17:56]  Great names all around.
[00:17:58]  And basically, it's like, do you know her?
[00:18:01]  And Miss Kimberly with a C gets a little coy and is like, yes, maybe it was the beginning of my employment.
[00:18:09]  I'm not sure.
[00:18:09]  Jeffrey had me send him an orchid or send her an orchid, which also I think in terms of flowers that you send girls, that's not a, you send a mother an orchid or something.
[00:18:20]  You know, not your lady.
[00:18:22]  Yeah, first, all right.
[00:18:23]  Let's, all right.
[00:18:24]  So somebody's got a little bit of expertise on their own as a former longtime, many year male florist and one of the biggest haters of hardcore band Orchid.
[00:18:35]  Never get anyone an orchid because guess what?
[00:18:37]  No one knows how to fucking take care of an orchid.
[00:18:39]  Oh, they got to take care of an orchid.
[00:18:41]  I disagree, but nobody does.
[00:18:45]  Not a single person in the world does.
[00:18:47]  When I worked at Brothers Papadopoulos Flowers, people would come by all the time, oh, an orchid, orchid.
[00:18:52]  We're an outdoor flower shop on the side of a fucking highway.
[00:18:55]  You cannot have an orchid from me.
[00:18:58]  I will not sell you an orchid under, even if I had an orchid, I wouldn't sell it to you.
[00:19:02]  Also, unless you're getting a real nice orchid, it's a supermarket flower.
[00:19:06]  No shame.
[00:19:06]  You can get great deals at the supermarket.
[00:19:08]  Fuck.
[00:19:09]  They undercut regular green flowers.
[00:19:11]  They do.
[00:19:12]  They undercut local flower shops.
[00:19:13]  That's true.
[00:19:14]  Yeah.
[00:19:14]  Anyway.
[00:19:15]  So the big question was, did Gillane know that Jeffrey was buying Miss Middlefart an orchid?
[00:19:24]  Miss Kimberly C says, no, Gillane did not know.
[00:19:28]  Now there's a big objection, obviously, but still it went in.
[00:19:32]  So the whole idea being that, you know, again, this is the point where they're trying to establish that there is some separation, but I don't really think it works, to be honest.
[00:19:40]  No, it doesn't.
[00:19:42]  And there's some questioning of Eva Dubin today that, well, that puts a finer point on this matter as well, although there was many objections that.

=== Kelly's Subpoena Mention (15:07) ===

[00:19:50]  The other thing that was the big to-do with Miss Kimberly with a C was talking about Jane, victim number one.
[00:19:58]  Yes.
[00:19:59]  Now, you know, Kimberly with a C's tenure with Ghillane lasted basically nearly the span of the time period of his trial, 1996 to 2002.
[00:20:12]  And so the big question was, do you recognize Jane?
[00:20:15]  And she said, yes, I do.
[00:20:18]  And she said that, you know, there's a whole thing about Jane and her mother coming in a lot to the office, the Madison Avenue office, that Jane's mother called and spoke to Miss Kimberly with a C often, and that Jeffrey gave them tickets to the Lion King, the musical.
[00:20:40]  Because at the time, he was giving out tickets to everyone.
[00:20:44]  He apparently, this is what Miss Kimberly with the C says.
[00:20:46]  She says, oh, he gave tickets to me.
[00:20:48]  It was so generous.
[00:20:49]  I love that he gave tickets to me.
[00:20:51]  He was friends with one of the producers.
[00:20:52]  So he was just giving everyone tickets.
[00:20:54]  It was a big show.
[00:20:55]  It was such a big ticket.
[00:20:56]  It was a big show.
[00:20:57]  He was just trying to get so many people.
[00:20:59]  You know, he gave tickets to everyone to the Lion King.
[00:21:02]  I got to say, this little tart had, that sounded very sexy.
[00:21:06]  That was very, yeah, I don't like that.
[00:21:08]  And she's not a tart either.
[00:21:09]  I don't like her.
[00:21:10]  She's a 55-year-old woman.
[00:21:11]  Listen, if anybody knows a tart, it's she did have a beautiful spray tan, I got to say, which stuck out like a sore thumb in the room of pasty East Coast.
[00:21:21]  Yes.
[00:21:22]  Like ghouls.
[00:21:24]  Yeah.
[00:21:24]  She's all like so white and like, oh, don't show me any of this.
[00:21:29]  Speak for yourself.
[00:21:31]  Yeah, she had a glowing, glowing Los Angeles tan.
[00:21:34]  I'm covered in a fine layer of oatmeal, which my pores omit.
[00:21:38]  Very sugary.
[00:21:41]  Yeah, it's so Lion King again came up today, Liz.
[00:21:47]  In fact, it was one of the final things in the trial.
[00:21:49]  But I got to say, the date of the musical of Lion King.
[00:21:55]  Well, I guess Lion King is already a musical, the movie, right?
[00:21:58]  No, there's the movie and then there's musical.
[00:22:01]  Is the movie doesn't have a music in it?
[00:22:04]  No, it does, but then the musical was the adaptation, the Broadway adaptation, stage adaptation of the Disney film.
[00:22:10]  And there were people involved.
[00:22:11]  I believe Elton John was actually involved in this.
[00:22:14]  He wrote the music.
[00:22:14]  Yeah.
[00:22:15]  Yeah.
[00:22:16]  Incredible memory I have.
[00:22:17]  Look at that.
[00:22:18]  Yeah.
[00:22:19]  Wow.
[00:22:19]  Yeah.
[00:22:21]  You know, I don't really care for that kind of show.
[00:22:23]  I'm not going to lie.
[00:22:24]  Wouldn't it be crazy if that Eminem and Elton John do it?
[00:22:27]  Like, one of the big things, by the way, that Kimberly with a C said, I don't know if you were here for this.
[00:22:34]  She said that Jane's mother told her that Jane was Jeffree's goddaughter.
[00:22:40]  Yes.
[00:22:41]  Yeah.
[00:22:41]  And so everyone in the office treated Jane like, this is what she said, treated Jane as if she were Jeffree's family, which meant like, you know, utmost professional, like this is, this is a very special person.
[00:22:52]  You don't like, you know, they get like, you know, I don't know, red carpet treatment that you don't, you know, you don't like hang up on the phone.
[00:23:00]  This is, you know, his family, right?
[00:23:02]  Yeah.
[00:23:02]  You always make sure the calls go through, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:23:07]  But she said that she stopped seeing Jane at a certain point and found out that Jane had joined a soap opera, which she was very excited about because it was Miss Kimberly with a C's favorite soap opera.
[00:23:20]  Yes.
[00:23:20]  Now, I got to say, again, Kimberly with a C applying for a receptionist job out of the papers, big soap fan.
[00:23:27]  I'm trying to paint a picture here.
[00:23:29]  It's working.
[00:23:30]  Okay, good.
[00:23:32]  But yeah, she said that she, you know, was very excited for her and, you know, she watched it and she recognized her.
[00:23:38]  And she even, you know, she got mail from Jane that was a collection of signed headshots from the stars of the soap that Jane's on.
[00:23:50]  That was Miss Kimberly's favorite soap.
[00:23:53]  They were all autographed and it had a note that was like, thank you, Miss Kimberly, for always being so nice.
[00:23:57]  Like, miss you or something like that.
[00:23:59]  Love Jane.
[00:24:01]  And she still had that, brought it to court, exhibit, defense exhibit, you know, and this was all meant to, you know, poke holes in Jane's testimony.
[00:24:09]  Yeah.
[00:24:09]  So the whole point of Kimberly being brought up here by the defense is to show it a number of things.
[00:24:15]  One, that Jane's, Jane saying that she saw the Lion King on a certain trip a certain year.
[00:24:21]  I believe she said she maybe saw it in 1994, 95, before it came out rather, was incorrect.
[00:24:27]  And so she must be lying about everything else.
[00:24:30]  Even though no one's really disputing the fact that she did see the Lion King on Epstein's dime.
[00:24:36]  But the other thing too is to prove that, like, first of all, her mother was around.
[00:24:42]  And so to kind of like be like, oh, well, you know, it's who knows what's going on here.
[00:24:47]  The other mom was there.
[00:24:48]  So, you know, you can, I mean, what was Ghillain's doing?
[00:24:51]  Exactly.
[00:24:52]  Like, she wasn't doing anything wrong to show that Jeffrey Epstein had adult girlfriends and to basically just like, you know, to try to pad up the side of the story the defense was trying to proffer.
[00:25:05]  Yeah.
[00:25:05]  Yeah.
[00:25:06]  At one point they straight up, I think they opened it with saying, you know, how old did you think Jane was?
[00:25:11]  She's like 18 immediately.
[00:25:13]  We should say Miss Kimberly with the Sea has kept in contact with Ghillane to this day.
[00:25:17]  Yes.
[00:25:18]  Only a couple years ago, she was staying in her home in England.
[00:25:22]  Gillian wasn't there.
[00:25:24]  They, of course, asked her if there was a massage room.
[00:25:26]  She said no.
[00:25:28]  And she said that mostly they had milestone contact, which again, that is such a professional executive assistant way of putting something.
[00:25:36]  Good milestone contact.
[00:25:37]  So, you know, birthdays, anniversaries, you know, all that kind of thing.
[00:25:44]  She was a real professional, Miss Kimberly with a sea, but I don't trust her.
[00:25:48]  We have them on solstices.
[00:25:50]  We have them on the, you know, the days of ritualistic sacrifice.
[00:25:54]  Yeah, it was very adorable.
[00:25:56]  All the pagan, all the big pagan hits.
[00:25:58]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:01]  The rest of the, I mean, they also, of course, we mentioned this yesterday, but they brought up Miss Elizabeth Francack.
[00:26:10]  No, no.
[00:26:11]  They brought up Elizabeth Loftus to.
[00:26:12]  Doctor, Professor Elizabeth Loftus, actually.
[00:26:15]  Bobby would correct herself.
[00:26:16]  She would say doctor, and then she saw, she'd say, Professor.
[00:26:19]  I don't know what was up with that.
[00:26:20]  Yeah.
[00:26:21]  If that's supposed to be like a better way of presenting her.
[00:26:25]  But, you know, Loftus kind of gave her usual spiel, though.
[00:26:29]  I got to say, they haven't deployed the expert witnesses.
[00:26:32]  I was so prepared.
[00:26:33]  And in fact, people who've covered trials with Ghana were so prepared.
[00:26:37]  People told me to be prepared for a lot of expert witness back and forth.
[00:26:40]  And I got to say, not a lot of expert witness.
[00:26:43]  I wonder how much the Weinstein stuff played into this.
[00:26:48]  Because of course, Loftus testified at Weinstein, high-profile trial, also caused B.
[00:26:53]  But the, the, it really has stopped working, this kind of, you know, poking holes in.
[00:26:59]  Also, Oliver North.
[00:27:00]  Yeah, but poking, but I just mean recently, like poking holes in these girls' testimony for, you know, being having corrupted memories based on media stories or, you know, time, you know, the passage of time or what have you, or like the, the, all the accusers kind of getting together, you know, the group chat they always mention, that kind of corrupting their own versions of what happened to them.
[00:27:26]  I don't think it was very successful.
[00:27:29]  Um, she spent, I know, I know that there's some like legal basis for having to like present someone as an expert as opposed to a certain another type of witness, but they literally spent like 15 to 20 minutes going over nearly every line of her CV.
[00:27:48]  Yes.
[00:27:50]  Which is 47 pages long.
[00:27:53]  Everyone in, I almost said the audience, but everyone in the room was like groaning, looking at it, like looking at each other, just being like, shut the fuck up, lady.
[00:28:01]  Like we don't give a shit about all the papers you've published.
[00:28:04]  I gotta say, Loftus, this fake, folksy attitude, the way she spoke was infuriating to me.
[00:28:12]  First of all, she addresses the jury.
[00:28:15]  As y'all.
[00:28:16]  She does kind of have a y'all about her.
[00:28:19]  It's weird.
[00:28:20]  Hold on, because there's two kinds of y'alls.
[00:28:22]  There's YX all.
[00:28:24]  No, this is like old school first, first tier y'all.
[00:28:27]  Okay, first tier y'all.
[00:28:28]  Yeah.
[00:28:29]  But no, she, but she isn't actually y'all, but she, she has that kind of like, it's not the, it's not the new generation y'all.
[00:28:36]  It's the faux folksy, like Clintonian y'all.
[00:28:39]  Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:28:40]  Yeah, I do.
[00:28:42]  And she like, she literally would like turn to so much so that her, her mouth would like move off the mic to address the jury as opposed to, and it's the first time anyone has ever done this.
[00:28:53]  No, she's a pro.
[00:28:53]  But that's the thing.
[00:28:54]  It was practiced.
[00:28:55]  It had this like air of like, now I'm going through the motions.
[00:28:59]  You're asking me this.
[00:29:00]  And it's this like fake folksy, like, well, all shucks, I don't know how many pages my CV.
[00:29:05]  It's like, bitch, you've done this literally 800 times.
[00:29:08]  Yes.
[00:29:09]  Yes, you do know.
[00:29:10]  And it was all, it was so rehearsed and planned and just was, it was so, so ridiculous.
[00:29:15]  I mean, I think anyone with half a brain could see right through it.
[00:29:19]  And they've, they've got jurors on there with at least a quarter of a brain.
[00:29:22]  Let's hope so.
[00:29:24]  Um, yeah, not, I, I, from, not very effective, not very effective.
[00:29:29]  And the rest of the day was basically taken up by bureaucrats, essentially.
[00:29:34]  Yeah.
[00:29:35]  Yeah, a bunch of paperwork nonsense.
[00:29:37]  You had a CBP officer, a, I think, employee at Palm Beach County Schools.
[00:29:43]  Yes, that's right.
[00:29:45]  Just verifying records and things like that.
[00:29:46]  Exactly.
[00:29:47]  And so today was the real, like, okay, we've got some fucking witnesses coming.
[00:29:53]  But boy, was that underwhelming.
[00:29:57]  So today starts off, of course.
[00:29:59]  I like to hear that it was underwhelming because I wasn't.
[00:30:01]  They got the little, they, well, it was, you know, you might have been overwhelmed.
[00:30:04]  No, not a smooth.
[00:30:05]  That would have been coolly well.
[00:30:07]  You would have fainted.
[00:30:07]  Liz has fainted.
[00:30:08]  I'm always well.
[00:30:10]  I'm never over, never under.
[00:30:11]  Yeah.
[00:30:12]  Cool as a cucumber.
[00:30:14]  Today started off like every day with a bit of back and forth from the prosecution to the defense, except this lasted an insanely long amount of time.
[00:30:23]  The jury didn't get brought in until about 10 a.m.
[00:30:27]  So there's a problem, right?
[00:30:30]  You get sent a subpoena.
[00:30:32]  What?
[00:30:33]  You got to go to court.
[00:30:34]  A subpoena.
[00:30:36]  Subpoena.
[00:30:37]  How do you say it?
[00:30:37]  Subpoena.
[00:30:38]  I say it the way that you say it.
[00:30:40]  Subpoena.
[00:30:42]  Sometimes you say it that way.
[00:30:43]  Sometimes you say subpoena.
[00:30:45]  I can't even say it the way you say.
[00:30:46]  How do you spell it?
[00:30:47]  How do you spell it?
[00:30:48]  Oh my God.
[00:30:49]  No, I'm just curious how you spell it.
[00:30:51]  Just curious how you spell it.
[00:30:52]  I already saw that you said online that the B that it's fake to have silent letters.
[00:30:57]  This is actually true.
[00:30:59]  Silent, so-called silent letters are fake.
[00:31:02]  There's no such thing as a silent letter.
[00:31:05]  Newsflash moron, just don't put the letter there.
[00:31:09]  If they didn't put the that it's fucking so the thing is it's not actually silent.
[00:31:14]  You do a hint.
[00:31:14]  You do a hint of a whisper of a subpoena.
[00:31:18]  Yeah, no, it's a subpoena.
[00:31:21]  It's literally not.
[00:31:21]  And you, it's, yeah.
[00:31:23]  Many, many listeners have remarks as a guy who's served a lot of penas in his life.
[00:31:28]  Uh, let me tell you, there's a thing called a subpoena.
[00:31:32]  And believe me, I've heard a lot of people.
[00:31:33]  That's the thing we're talking about.
[00:31:34]  I've heard a lot of you ladies complaining about them.
[00:31:38]  So today starts off with Comey and, and to be fair, manager and Sternheim and the defense kind of talking about this witness who is ducking the subpoena.
[00:31:54]  Is this Alexander Hamilton?
[00:31:56]  No.
[00:31:57]  Okay.
[00:31:58]  I'll get to Alexander Hamilton.
[00:32:01]  I'll get to Alexander Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton in a second.
[00:32:04]  Alexander Hamilton is not ducking anyone, but he is scared of the FBI.
[00:32:09]  Which there is a distinction there.
[00:32:10]  I believe Kelly Kelly Bavino.
[00:32:13]  Well, so there are three female type witnesses that are supposed to be called to court today.
[00:32:21]  One is, we were just given their first names.
[00:32:24]  Eva, Michelle, and Kelly.
[00:32:26]  Now, doesn't take a damn genius.
[00:32:29]  Actually, you know what?
[00:32:30]  No, it does take a genius.
[00:32:31]  I figured out that he was.
[00:32:32]  He almost had Destiny's child there.
[00:32:34]  Mm-hmm.
[00:32:35]  I don't know what that means.
[00:32:39]  I figured out, of course, it's got to be Eva Dubin, right?
[00:32:42]  Yes.
[00:32:44]  Everyone had their fingers crossed.
[00:32:46]  There's a couple different Michelles in Epstein orbit, so not really sure who that could be.
[00:32:52]  And Kelly, you know, I'll be honest with you.
[00:32:56]  I didn't know, but I suspected it was a woman named Kelly Babino.
[00:33:02]  And we actually did not have that confirmation until the very end of the day when I think they were just like, fuck it, and said her full name.
[00:33:10]  As you might remember, there were a few witnesses that the defense was seeking anonymity for, which is very rare that in this sort of circumstances, that's allowed.
[00:33:22]  It was not granted.
[00:33:24]  Kelly is, I don't know if you guys can hear that, but someone's really partying downstairs.
[00:33:30]  Kelly has been ducking the subpoenas and, in fact, is just refusing to cooperate or respond to anything at all.
[00:33:39]  And so the defense today put forward a basically a motion to get the marshals to go and arrest her and drag her ass to the courthouse.
[00:33:53]  I was thrilled when I heard this.
[00:33:55]  And in fact, this is the happiest I've been in weeks, if not months, if not years.
[00:34:00]  Yeah, you were running up volunteering to be a marshal.
[00:34:04]  Picture.
[00:34:04]  Well, I am.
[00:34:06]  All right.
[00:34:06]  So I do do volunteer civilian marshal work sometimes.
[00:34:11]  And I am an unlicensed air marshal.
[00:34:14]  But I was thrilled at this.
[00:34:17]  This did not end up happening.
[00:34:20]  But if you may recall, Jane has claimed that five women participate in basically group sex or group sexualized massage.
[00:34:32]  Yes, with five women.
[00:34:35]  Eva, Sophie, Michelle, Kelly, and one other woman whose name I can't remember.
[00:34:46]  Emmy.
[00:34:46]  Emmy.
[00:34:47]  Yes, Emmy, which is obviously Emmy Taylor.
[00:34:51]  Now, once I saw these three names, I was like, okay, I'm seeing what's going on here.
[00:34:55]  They're going to have these ladies say, I never heard of this woman in my life.

=== Called to the Stand (16:23) ===

[00:34:57]  Yeah.
[00:34:58]  And what did they do?
[00:35:00]  They had two of these five women come and say that I've never heard of this woman in my life.
[00:35:05]  So Eva Dubin's a big name, though.
[00:35:08]  She's a big fucking name.
[00:35:10]  We did a whole episode about her.
[00:35:11]  Yeah.
[00:35:12]  I think we did an episode about the Dubins.
[00:35:14]  I will find that and put it in the description.
[00:35:17]  But Eva Dubin's a big name.
[00:35:20]  First of all, Dr. Eva Dubin.
[00:35:24]  Is this like a Dr. Joe Biden situation?
[00:35:26]  They were clear to call her Dr. Eva Dubin.
[00:35:29]  Oh my God.
[00:35:30]  Or Dr. Dubin.
[00:35:31]  Glenn Dubin is, I mean, up until recently, big powerhouse.
[00:35:36]  Financial financier.
[00:35:38]  Yeah.
[00:35:39]  I like that.
[00:35:39]  Financial Titan.
[00:35:41]  Yes.
[00:35:41]  In New York City.
[00:35:44]  So, you know, we will actually, we'll get to her testimony in a second.
[00:35:48]  I just want to run through kind of what was happening prior to everything.
[00:35:52]  Actually, you know what?
[00:35:53]  Let's just jump into it now because that makes more sense flow-wise.
[00:35:58]  So it does.
[00:36:00]  So I was electric when Eva Dubin was called to the stand.
[00:36:04]  Oh my God, I can only imagine.
[00:36:06]  You know who wasn't electric?
[00:36:08]  Eva Dubin.
[00:36:09]  Because despite being the former 1980 Miss Sweden.
[00:36:13]  Why is everyone from Sweden?
[00:36:15]  Wait, where's Middlefart from?
[00:36:18]  Norway.
[00:36:18]  Oh, whatever.
[00:36:20]  Same thing.
[00:36:20]  I mean, actually, I'll be wrong.
[00:36:21]  She's a market socialist.
[00:36:22]  Don't care.
[00:36:24]  Norway is technically should be Sweden.
[00:36:26]  Yeah, well, that's another episode.
[00:36:28]  Let's not get into that now.
[00:36:29]  Yeah, it will be.
[00:36:30]  Oh, and Russia, really.
[00:36:32]  But so she is called to the stand.
[00:36:36]  And if you have listened to our episode about them, but also just involving some testimony that her former, one of her former employees gave a guy named Ronaldo Rizzo in 2016.
[00:36:49]  You know, it's a little too much to fully just read off here or anything.
[00:36:53]  Yeah.
[00:36:53]  But essentially, this guy is preparing a meal in, you know, in the Dubin home when Epstein and Ghelane sort of breeze in with a 15-year-old girl.
[00:37:06]  Eva tells one of the girl to sit on a bar stool in the kitchen, sort of like, you know, sit there.
[00:37:11]  She looks shell-shocked.
[00:37:13]  She's very attractive, very beautiful, he says.
[00:37:16]  And I will read this part.
[00:37:18]  Very attractive, beautiful young girl, makeup, very put together, casual dress, but she seemed to be upset, maybe distraught, and she was shaking.
[00:37:25]  And as she sat down, she sat down and sat in the stool exactly the way the girls that I mentioned to you sat at Jeffrey's house with no expression and with their head down.
[00:37:33]  But we could tell she was very nervous.
[00:37:35]  What do you mean by distraught and shaking?
[00:37:37]  What do you mean by that?
[00:37:38]  Shaking, I mean literally shaking.
[00:37:41]  He introduces himself and this girl is just like totally non-responsive.
[00:37:48]  She looks like she's about to cry.
[00:37:50]  And he eventually is able to make her feel a little comfortable.
[00:37:54]  And she says that she's Jack's executive personal assistant, which is clearly not talking about Kimberly here.
[00:38:02]  And, you know, Ronaldo's like, what?
[00:38:03]  You're like 15.
[00:38:04]  How are you as personal assistant?
[00:38:06]  And she sounds at this point, she like hysterically breaks down crying.
[00:38:10]  And she's not, doesn't stop crying.
[00:38:13]  And she just tells them basically everything that happened.
[00:38:18]  I was on an island.
[00:38:19]  I was on the island.
[00:38:20]  It was at Ghelane and there was Sarah and they asked me for sex and I said no.
[00:38:23]  And she's just rambling.
[00:38:24]  And I'm like, what?
[00:38:26]  And she said, I asked her, I said, what?
[00:38:28]  And she says, yes, I was on the island.
[00:38:29]  I don't know how I got from the island to here.
[00:38:31]  Late afternoon or in the afternoon, I was on the island and now I'm here.
[00:38:34]  And I said, do you have a, this is not making any sense to me.
[00:38:37]  This is nuts.
[00:38:38]  Do you have a passport?
[00:38:39]  Do you have a phone?
[00:38:40]  She says, no.
[00:38:41]  She says, Ghelaine took my passport.
[00:38:42]  And I said, what?
[00:38:43]  And she says, Sarah took her passport and her phone and gave it to Glenn Maxwell.
[00:38:47]  And at that point, she felt that she was threatened.
[00:38:50]  And she says, I was threatened by Ghelane not to say anything.
[00:38:53]  And later, she is given to Eva Dubin to work as her babysitter.
[00:38:58]  And Roso sees her about a month later on a flight to Sweden.
[00:39:04]  And she doesn't say anything.
[00:39:07]  And she gets off.
[00:39:09]  He actually does give her name in the testimony, but it's blacked out.
[00:39:14]  And she says that at one point the plane stops and the girl gets off the plane and he does not see her again.
[00:39:21]  So that is fucking Eva and Glenn Dubin for you.
[00:39:25]  I want to say too that just as like a little bit of unconfirmed gossip, we have not heard anything good about this family from anyone who is remotely close or friends with anyone related to the family.
[00:39:39]  I'll just say it as vague as I can.
[00:39:42]  I've heard only very cryptic, hushed, sad feelings about this family.
[00:39:49]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:50]  It does not seem to be a good family to be reared in.
[00:39:56]  So she is, she is, takes the stand.
[00:39:58]  And of course, you know, I know that nothing insane is going to come out, right?
[00:40:02]  Eva Dubin's not on trial here.
[00:40:04]  There's going to be a very narrow sort of set of questions.
[00:40:07]  And that's basically what happened here.
[00:40:11]  She's asked about her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:40:14]  She says that she dated him from about 1983 to around 19, approximately 1990 to 1991.
[00:40:24]  And she remained friends with Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:40:27]  She traveled with Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:40:29]  Her and her husband did quite a lot.
[00:40:31]  She got married to Glenn Dubin in 1984 on her birthday, which I got to say.
[00:40:36]  That's weird.
[00:40:37]  Liz, as a woman, how's that feeling for you?
[00:40:39]  That's weird.
[00:40:39]  First of all, why would you, okay, look, we're a birthday.
[00:40:43]  I love a birthday.
[00:40:44]  Big birthday fan.
[00:40:45]  Big birthday fan.
[00:40:46]  I don't have a wedding anniversary, but when I do, I'm going to love that.
[00:40:50]  Here's what I'm saying.
[00:40:51]  I want two days.
[00:40:52]  I don't want one day.
[00:40:53]  Different, different.
[00:40:53]  You want to separate them.
[00:40:54]  You get both.
[00:40:55]  Yeah.
[00:40:56]  You get the birthday and then you get the wedding anniversary.
[00:40:58]  You want two different days.
[00:40:59]  It's like how you always feel bad when you're a kid.
[00:41:01]  You know, I knew someone who was like born on, I think it was they were born on Christmas, actually, or born on New Year's.
[00:41:06]  And you're like, well, that kind of sucks.
[00:41:07]  No one wants to come to your party because Christmas.
[00:41:09]  Yeah.
[00:41:10]  Exactly.
[00:41:11]  You don't want to do that.
[00:41:11]  You don't make some separate days.
[00:41:13]  Separate days.
[00:41:14]  I mean, Ghelane was born on Christmas and look where she ended up.
[00:41:16]  But also, you got to be a real weirdo narcissist to say, we should get married on my birthday.
[00:41:21]  She did it on, I mean, that's the thing is you did it on purpose.
[00:41:23]  That's weird.
[00:41:24]  Don't love it.
[00:41:24]  Maybe there's a weird, you know, esoteric pagan aspect to that that I don't want to look into.
[00:41:29]  Did it appear Mr. Epstein was fond of your children?
[00:41:33]  Yes.
[00:41:34]  Were your children fond of Mr. Epstein?
[00:41:37]  Yes.
[00:41:37]  That's how the defense put the questions.
[00:41:39]  Liz, riddle me this.
[00:41:41]  Would you like to have that read into the record?
[00:41:43]  No.
[00:41:44]  No.
[00:41:44]  Why would you say fond?
[00:41:46]  First of all, that's two letters, two silent letters off from Fondal, by the way.
[00:41:50]  But also, just what an odd way to put that.
[00:41:54]  Yeah.
[00:41:55]  First of all, yes, Fondue.
[00:41:59]  But I don't, I don't, yeah, that is, it's, it was, they, she says they called him, and I thought I made, I, I thought I mistakenly misheard them or something.
[00:42:07]  This happened, same thing that happened with Middle Fart, is she says they called him Uncle F, which I guess is probably little kids pronounced mispronouncing Jeff.
[00:42:16]  My cousin used to call me Little Fish.
[00:42:18]  Oh, that's because it couldn't say Elizabeth.
[00:42:21]  Oh, Little Fish.
[00:42:24]  So let's focus.
[00:42:26]  This is Pagliouchi here, Pagliachi here, Pagliouchi.
[00:42:29]  Oh no.
[00:42:30]  On 1994 to 2004.
[00:42:33]  Did you observe any inappropriate conduct between Mr. Epstein and teenage girls?
[00:42:37]  I did not.
[00:42:40]  And then she shows her a series of photographs.
[00:42:44]  You didn't see any of the photographs, did you?
[00:42:46]  Did not.
[00:42:46]  These were sealed photographs.
[00:42:48]  Damn seals.
[00:42:50]  So the first two photos were one was Jeff and Selena, and she was asked if she'd ever seen the photo.
[00:42:55]  Selena Dubin is, of course, Eva Dubin's daughter.
[00:42:58]  She said, I have not seen that photo before, but she didn't say it in a way that it was like, this is Jeffrey Epstein making out with my daughter or anything like that.
[00:43:06]  She just said she hadn't seen the photo before.
[00:43:09]  The other photo, the next photo was from her other daughter and Mr. Epstein.
[00:43:14]  And the third photo, she says, and we never really got a straight answer on this.
[00:43:21]  What's this one?
[00:43:22]  She also hadn't seen them before.
[00:43:24]  This is just my notes here.
[00:43:25]  And then he asked if she knew the person of the same name as this photo.
[00:43:32]  And she said she did not.
[00:43:34]  But then we go on to flight records.
[00:43:38]  And she was asked if she'd seen the flight records, if she's seen the flight records in the media, if she found them to be accurate.
[00:43:44]  And this became a kind of a long and rather honestly fruitless line of questioning.
[00:43:51]  They read off a bunch of flight records with her.
[00:43:54]  In fact, they unredact those.
[00:43:55]  You remember Liz?
[00:43:56]  Those big black flags?
[00:43:57]  Finally.
[00:43:58]  They unredact the flight records, except for just the victims' names, which in the first place.
[00:44:05]  What year did you see?
[00:44:07]  This was mostly the mid-90s.
[00:44:09]  And they go through a bunch of flights.
[00:44:11]  The first one they showed us was from Palm Beach International to DC Airport.
[00:44:15]  This was Jeffrey Epstein, Eva Dubin, and Francis Jardine, or Hardeen, which was one of Epstein's girlfriends.
[00:44:24]  Another flight, same passenger list.
[00:44:27]  Again, these are pretty, these are pretty anodyne.
[00:44:31]  You know, another one, J-E-A-S, which I'm not sure who that is exactly.
[00:44:35]  Eva, Glenn, baby, and then one female, which the question is.
[00:44:40]  Baby.
[00:44:41]  Yeah, well, this was actually right when she had her, I believe, first child.
[00:44:44]  Come on.
[00:44:45]  And they said this is one female, and she's asked if that could have been their nanny, which we know what kind of nannies they've had before.
[00:44:54]  And she says, possibly.
[00:44:57]  There is a few other ones, but basically, we get down to the crux of it.
[00:45:04]  Jane's name is on a flight entry alongside the Dubins.
[00:45:08]  She says, Do you recall meeting anyone named Jane on this flight?
[00:45:10]  This is Pagliashi asking her.
[00:45:12]  She says, no, or don't recall meeting anyone on this flight.
[00:45:16]  And there's another entry where she's asked if she recognizes anybody.
[00:45:22]  We got Sophie Biddle, Jeff Chance, the Jeff that's a lawyer for him.
[00:45:28]  And then finally, there is basically, I mean, they go through a few other flights.
[00:45:34]  The utility of some of them, I'm not entirely sure of because there's no victims on any of them.
[00:45:40]  But this kind of gets summed up in during 1994 to 2004 timeframe, were you ever introduced to anyone named Eva who was dating or close to Jeffrey Epstein?
[00:45:50]  And she says, not that I recall.
[00:45:52]  And so this is to say that there could be no other Eva that Jane was talking about.
[00:45:57]  Pagliachi follows that up with asking her, have you ever been in a group sexual encounter with Jane?
[00:46:04]  She says, absolutely not.
[00:46:06]  And then have you ever been in a group sexualized massage with Jane?
[00:46:09]  And again, absolutely not.
[00:46:12]  And so what we have there is an attempted corroboration of her saying that, like, no, I've never done anything with Jane.
[00:46:19]  So I am disputing Jane's remarks here.
[00:46:24]  But then we get the cross, right?
[00:46:26]  And the cross asks a very, I think, kind of funny question.
[00:46:33]  Are you the only Eva in the whole wide world?
[00:46:37]  I mean, yeah.
[00:46:39]  She says, no.
[00:46:41]  There are many people named Eva.
[00:46:42]  And she says, yes.
[00:46:43]  And I wrote, she's being very snarky in here.
[00:46:45]  Is this who?
[00:46:46]  Who was this on the cross?
[00:46:48]  Was it Miss Mo?
[00:46:50]  Yes, it was Mademoiselle Mo, actually married to the Mo from Moe's Tavern.
[00:46:56]  Yeah, she's very sassy, Miss Moe.
[00:46:58]  I think if you're having anyone call you Ms. Mo, which by the way, the defense and I think even Judge Nathan calls her that.
[00:47:05]  Very sassy, very sassy lady.
[00:47:07]  Yes.
[00:47:08]  And so basically she asks, like, oh, so you didn't actually see Epstein that much during some of these time periods.
[00:47:13]  I mean, basically trying to make it seem like, well, if it wasn't this Eva, it was another Eva, and that's entirely possible.
[00:47:20]  Then the questions about Jeffrey and Galen's relationship start.
[00:47:25]  And Ms. Mo asked the question that has been forefront on all of her minds.
[00:47:31]  Did Jeffrey Epstein and Ghelane Maxwell have an open relationship?
[00:47:35]  No shit.
[00:47:36]  She said that.
[00:47:37]  Yeah, open relationship.
[00:47:41]  This was met with a, well, she says, I can't really say.
[00:47:45]  I don't know if they did.
[00:47:47]  No objections.
[00:47:49]  Well, okay.
[00:47:50]  Pagliachi then starts a belt-fed machine gun fire over to basically any question having to do with Ghelane.
[00:48:00]  Jeffrey Epstein after that.
[00:48:02]  He's just like, objection, objection, objection, objection.
[00:48:05]  And we make it through the objections with very few answers and none really notable.
[00:48:10]  And then the final three, which was, are you having some issues with your memory?
[00:48:14]  Yes.
[00:48:15]  And then, you know, she has her explained to the jury.
[00:48:18]  She says it's hard to remember things from far back and hard to remember things from even last month.
[00:48:22]  Her family notices.
[00:48:24]  And she's asked if it's related to medical issues.
[00:48:27]  And she says, I believe it is.
[00:48:28]  So she has Alzheimer's or something like that.
[00:48:32]  Most likely so.
[00:48:32]  Although she seemed, I will say, very lucid.
[00:48:36]  There is no redirect on this.
[00:48:39]  So she is let off the stand.
[00:48:42]  Well, it wouldn't be good for it to come out that Jeffrey and Ghelane were open, were poly.
[00:48:47]  Not great for the poly community.
[00:48:48]  No, no, no.
[00:48:49]  Well, actually, they claim Jeff pretty hard.
[00:48:53]  Do they?
[00:48:54]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:55]  He's like one of the most foremost.
[00:48:56]  I mean, he's.
[00:48:57]  I mean, I would say that, but if you're a pro, if you're a poly person.
[00:49:00]  No, he spoke at PolyCon 2017.
[00:49:03]  You know, he does the edge conference, actually, was.
[00:49:06]  Yeah, he did a bunch of poly, like charity Twitch streams for like, you know, big beds that like fit like seven people.
[00:49:14]  You know, he's, he's, he's pretty in there.
[00:49:16]  I gotta say, as I was kind of following this as much as I could throughout the day, there seemed to be a big hanging question in the air, which was, is Ghulane going to testify?
[00:49:31]  She did not.
[00:49:31]  She did not.
[00:49:32]  No.
[00:49:33]  But was there a little bit of a cliffhanger?
[00:49:35]  Was everyone like, oh, maybe she will, maybe she won't?
[00:49:37]  Well, people, no, I think at this point, you're the only person who really thought Ghelane was going to testify.
[00:49:42]  No, there's one guy who also thought that she might.
[00:49:46]  One guy out of, well, there was actually other people.
[00:49:51]  It wasn't just me.
[00:49:52]  Well, no, Ghillaine did not take the stand.
[00:49:54]  And at the time was clicking, ticking rather.
[00:49:57]  Well, it was clicking too, further and further.
[00:49:59]  We actually had Michelle Healy, who was another Jay Epstein and company employee.
[00:50:04]  She is now a housewife, and she was a secretary.
[00:50:07]  She's self-described housewife.
[00:50:09]  She is now a secretary.
[00:50:11]  Or she was a secretary at Epstein's office.
[00:50:16]  And from 96 to 99, her sister worked there and needed someone to fill in.
[00:50:22]  And this, of course, you know, this is a Michelle, although clearly probably not the Michelle that was referenced by Jane.
[00:50:32]  And she also speaks in rather glowing terms about not only Ghelane Maxwell, but Jeffrey Epstein as well, calling him very generous.
[00:50:41]  She says she was friends with Amy Taylor, you know, hung out with her sometimes.
[00:50:46]  She said that Jane looked like a grown-up to her.
[00:50:48]  It was a fairly short testimony.
[00:50:50]  And she was asked also if she was ever involved in any group sexualized massages with Jane.
[00:50:56]  Absolutely not.
[00:50:57]  And any group sexualized massage with Jeffrey Epstein?
[00:51:00]  Again, absolutely not.
[00:51:02]  And she was also asked if the FBI had contacted her within the last week about this.
[00:51:08]  And she said yes.
[00:51:09]  And that is very interesting to me.
[00:51:12]  That is interesting.
[00:51:14]  That could mean maybe she was and she's being accused by somebody of that.

=== Potential Witnesses Debate (11:31) ===

[00:51:21]  We get to cross and let's guess what the first question is.
[00:51:25]  Are you the only Michelle in the world?
[00:51:28]  And unfortunately, she did not say whole wide world this time.
[00:51:31]  Oh.
[00:51:32]  She says, ha ha, no.
[00:51:35]  And then, did you know the first name of everyone Jeffrey Epstein met in the 1990s?
[00:51:40]  And then no.
[00:51:43]  But basically, no, that was it.
[00:51:47]  There was a very short cross-examination, no recross there.
[00:51:52]  And at this point, things get a little hairy for the defense because we've had very few witnesses take the stand.
[00:52:01]  Yeah, no blockbuster information, no daggers in any of the girls' testimony.
[00:52:06]  Everything's sort of falling flat.
[00:52:09]  Yes.
[00:52:10]  And like a balloon middle farting out.
[00:52:15]  And I got to say, it seems, seems like there's not going to be any more witnesses left.
[00:52:22]  And you know what happens when there's no more witnesses left?
[00:52:25]  You got to rest your case.
[00:52:27]  And from, all right, from the perspective of somebody just watching this happen, it really did seem somewhat like the defense was kind of caught out.
[00:52:38]  They had promised 35 witnesses.
[00:52:41]  I believe we got less than eight, although I'm bad.
[00:52:44]  Potential witnesses.
[00:52:45]  Yeah.
[00:52:45]  Potential witnesses.
[00:52:47]  Now, there were a couple things that were brought up in a long conversation this morning, or rather a long back and forth with prosecution and the defense and the judge about having a couple more witnesses.
[00:53:03]  So now there is some contention over whether Ghelane's house in Belgravia, when it was purchased, and if that purchase date matches up with a minor victim to Kate's dates that she said that she first went there.
[00:53:19]  That whole thing is so stupid.
[00:53:22]  Now, technically, it's that house is leased from like some duke because it's some weird London thing.
[00:53:29]  Like it's not, it's like been leased since like the 1500s.
[00:53:32]  This is how the defense portrayed it.
[00:53:35]  What?
[00:53:35]  And some British property.
[00:53:38]  No one cares.
[00:53:38]  This is so stupid.
[00:53:39]  No one cares.
[00:53:40]  Show us the mail.
[00:53:42]  Yeah.
[00:53:42]  So they could not, they could, they, they were having some trouble here.
[00:53:46]  And so they were trying to get the barrister who represented Ghelane Maxwell in the purchase of this home to testify.
[00:53:55]  What is this defense strategy?
[00:53:58]  I don't know.
[00:54:00]  This is not what was going on.
[00:54:02]  Tailored for the American audience.
[00:54:05]  So all of the witnesses that they had to testify to that could not make it.
[00:54:10]  Her lawyer could not make it.
[00:54:13]  Her lawyer represented in this sale.
[00:54:16]  There were technical issues.
[00:54:18]  And in fact, this was very funny because there was a witness supposed to be Alexander Hamilton.
[00:54:21]  And it's unclear exactly whether that was the lawyer who was supposed to represent her.
[00:54:26]  I believe it was, or who did represent her during the purchase of that home.
[00:54:29]  I believe it was.
[00:54:31]  But he has COVID.
[00:54:33]  So Alexander Hamilton, British Alexander Hamilton, is sick with COVID, and he was getting freaked out by Detective Byrne, who I believe works for the court, calling him, trying to set up him giving testimony over the screen.
[00:54:50]  This is like a slapstick comedy, comedy of errors defense.
[00:54:53]  Well, so this is the funny thing is the prosecution was pissed about this because they were like, first of all, they were like, there are not technical errors.
[00:55:01]  It's working fine.
[00:55:03]  The defense just doesn't want to use them anymore and don't want to look like they're pulling witnesses because obviously if they're pulling that witness, he probably doesn't exactly have the documents that they wanted to.
[00:55:12]  Right, right, right, right.
[00:55:13]  And so there is a long back and forth, but like very snipy back and forth between the prosecution and the defense about this.
[00:55:21]  There's also the owner of the Nag's Head pub.
[00:55:25]  Now, remember I called this?
[00:55:27]  Yes.
[00:55:29]  Well, it's crazy because, I mean, at first I was like, wait, Liz?
[00:55:34]  There's a pub named after Liz's head?
[00:55:37]  That's so mean.
[00:55:38]  Don't be mean.
[00:55:38]  Yeah, it was crazy to me, but I guess Nag is a type of British person and they name pubs after them.
[00:55:48]  The owner of the Nag's Head pub, which is apparently across the street from Ghelane's former residence in Belgravia, who is an 81-year-old man, wanted to come and testify, but he won't be able to get across the pond.
[00:56:01]  And believe me, Laura Menninger used the words across the pond, although not when describing this witness, but describing others, to fly across the pond and testify that he had, oh, I'd seen the old other people that lived at the house during the time that Kate says that she was molested there.
[00:56:21]  So basically, she wanted, they wanted him to come and corroborate.
[00:56:24]  And I'm like, brother, if your big witness is an 81-year-old barkeep of the Nag's Head pub who's got to testify on memories from 1996, don't think this case is going so well.
[00:56:37]  I can't believe that's all they could find.
[00:56:39]  That's all they could find.
[00:56:39]  You know what?
[00:56:40]  This is a really like, you know, to kind of sum up this defense strategy, like Ghelane has been cut loose from all strings that were attached.
[00:56:51]  And I mean, like, you, this girl was like a society girl for decades, and there is nobody who can come testify on her behalf.
[00:57:00]  Nobody.
[00:57:01]  Nobody.
[00:57:01]  They can't find anybody.
[00:57:03]  Think of all those pictures of everybody that Ghelane's with, right?
[00:57:07]  All those pictures of every single CEO in the world for someone.
[00:57:11]  People who are underneath all of these people.
[00:57:14]  You know what I mean?
[00:57:15]  And you're pulling out a fucking like barrister who can't figure out Zoom, allegedly, and like an 83-year-old, you know, like barkeep of the Nag's Head pub.
[00:57:28]  Like, come on.
[00:57:30]  This is what it comes to.
[00:57:31]  I mean, that's the thing, too, is, you know, people are like, well, it, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's going to be rigged.
[00:57:36]  It's going to be rigged.
[00:57:36]  I'm like, dude, I don't know, man.
[00:57:39]  Like, I, it's a little bit more.
[00:57:40]  I mean, it feels like, yeah, it feels like, it's like to the point where you're like, and I don't think this, but I wouldn't blame people for thinking it was on purpose punt.
[00:57:49]  It's so crazy.
[00:57:51]  It's, it is such an incredible, like, you know, we have talked, we have talked our fair share of hard truths about the prosecution of this case.
[00:57:59]  Yeah.
[00:57:59]  But I got to say, every single one of them looked like Clarence Darrow next to the defense today and yesterday.
[00:58:06]  I mean, they were fumbling and mumbling and they were also wearing their white suits and hats because it was Friday, Casual Friday.
[00:58:13]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:58:14]  Bobby Sternheim was smoking a doobie during most of this, hanging loosely between her lips, the end, both ends wet.
[00:58:23]  And she enrolled herself.
[00:58:25]  You know what, too, it's like you've known this was down the pipeline for a fucking long time.
[00:58:32]  And so that is all you have.
[00:58:34]  That is something the judge reminded them of.
[00:58:36]  Like you've had months to come up with this.
[00:58:39]  But I'm saying like, dude, you've had the Virginia Jeffries suit was in what 2016?
[00:58:44]  And you got to be able to read the writing on the wall by that point.
[00:58:47]  Yeah, I mean, I just, that really tells me so much about her character.
[00:58:52]  And we've talked about this before.
[00:58:53]  You know, she thinks she's like above it all.
[00:58:55]  This like, you know, that's why that was my only angle in thinking that maybe she would testify was because she thinks like she thinks so little of anyone else below her.
[00:59:06]  And she sees every single other person besides the like two or three people she keeps close to her as being below her.
[00:59:14]  Yeah.
[00:59:15]  Like she, you know what I mean?
[00:59:16]  She doesn't have time for any of this, but it's, it's shocking.
[00:59:19]  It's absolutely shocking to me.
[00:59:21]  Like, I mean, I got to say, if you think that it does not look like any sort of ties to any government or intelligence agency has is really coming to help her right now, because like I said, strings cut.
[00:59:34]  It's loose.
[00:59:36]  I got to say, if they were going to rig a case, which I'm not saying that there's not some funny business going on, I don't know, but you could have gotten a little better cover than this.
[00:59:45]  This was dog shit.
[00:59:46]  And I mean, again, you know, I'm a court neophyte and hopefully for the rest of my life.
[00:59:51]  But I was appalled at the job that they were doing her.
[00:59:55]  I mean, one almost felt like, I mean, one didn't actually, but one could understand feeling sorry for her because watching this fucking clown show of the past two days, and especially watching today as her lawyers wheedled and pleaded and begged and shouted in order for basically to gain themselves more time, it was pathetic.
[01:00:14]  It was frankly fucking pathetic.
[01:00:16]  And, you know, it was, it was in a way like good.
[01:00:19]  You know, obviously she is connected to a lot of people who have not had their day in court and probably never will.
[01:00:25]  But in a way, it was really good to see her fucking totally isolated up there on the stage.
[01:00:29]  Yeah, absolutely.
[01:00:30]  Isolated, shriveled, with nothing, no one to help her, all alone, fucking facing down, whatever it is, 70 years in the claim.
[01:00:39]  Yeah.
[01:00:39]  Receive her life.
[01:00:42]  It was, yeah, it was really something to see.
[01:00:45]  And so we break for lunch, and usually there's 45 minutes, an hour.
[01:00:52]  Well, I rushed back to the courthouse, you know, after walking around, getting, I got a BLT.
[01:00:58]  A good friend of mine who I met up with got eight racks of ribs, a whole lamb, and literally an entire bundle of potatoes.
[01:01:11]  It was incredible to see, all baked and frothing with butter.
[01:01:16]  But we end up waiting there, and the jury is out for three, almost three hours, two and a half, probably.
[01:01:24]  And they finally get back in, and it's clear that the defense is fucked.
[01:01:29]  They're like, all right, we have no more witnesses.
[01:01:32]  The prosecution's no longer having the rebuttal.
[01:01:36]  They were going to have a rebuttal, I believe, expert witness.
[01:01:39]  They've withdrawn that.
[01:01:41]  So it's getting cut shorter and shorter.
[01:01:43]  And they make a handful of stipulations.
[01:01:48]  One of which is Mike Wallace's date of birth is May 9th, 1918.
[01:01:57]  The Lion King, this is another stipulation, opened in preview October 15th, 1997, and in regular release on November 13th, 1997.
[01:02:07]  And that was basically, things went along that lines.
[01:02:10]  Nothing really major changed the case.
[01:02:12]  No, no real, you know, big, crazy fireworks things.
[01:02:16]  Nothing that would make you sort of shocked, like, oh, this changes everything.
[01:02:19]  But they just kind of wanted to get some last facts in there under the line to hopefully, you know, in lieu of any kind of convincing witness, change the jury's mind.
[01:02:28]  And that was it.
[01:02:30]  The defense rested.
[01:02:31]  And it was sort of a, I mean, it was, it was kind of crazy because looking back, defense lasted a day and a half.
[01:02:40]  You know, they didn't even last till lunchtime on the second day.
[01:02:44]  And that's her, you know, millions of dollars she's paying her lawyers.
[01:02:48]  And they can't even amount to a two-day defense.
[01:02:51]  I mean, it was really something to see.

=== Speedy Defense Overruled (03:31) ===

[01:02:52]  Yeah.
[01:02:53]  Well, we'll probably be hearing more from those stipulations and closing arguments, which are on Monday.
[01:03:00]  Yes.
[01:03:00]  Now, like we mentioned last week, or I keep saying last week because I feel like it's the weekend.
[01:03:05]  It's Friday.
[01:03:06]  We already met.
[01:03:07]  We established foundation on this very podcast.
[01:03:10]  Friday is the weekend, right?
[01:03:11]  Friday night's the weekend.
[01:03:12]  And it's Friday night, baby.
[01:03:13]  It's Friday night.
[01:03:15]  So, but yeah, I was mentioning that the last thing the defense wants, and I think this is why part of the scramble that you saw today, was the last thing they want is this jury going into deliberations two days before Christmas.
[01:03:28]  Well, this is the Christmas present to the defense because I'm calling it right now.
[01:03:33]  There's just no way this, I would be shocked, shocked to see any of that go much longer.
[01:03:41]  Agreed.
[01:03:41]  And Ghelane's birthday, of course, is December 25th, and she'll be turning 29 years old.
[01:03:47]  And I have a, I have a feeling that she will be getting out.
[01:03:52]  And so meet me at Nello's on the 25th, ladies and gentlemen, because Ghelane Freedom Day.
[01:03:59]  Oh, my God.
[01:04:02]  Well, we'll be back next week.
[01:04:05]  Day 13, Monday.
[01:04:09]  Speedy trial, real speedy trial.
[01:04:11]  Speedy fucking trial.
[01:04:13]  Also, I want to, you know what?
[01:04:14]  I have a stipulation I want in the record.
[01:04:16]  Stipulate it.
[01:04:17]  And this is just a personal note, but I think it's a funny little thing to add as we wrap up.
[01:04:22]  The other day, I was walking to Brace's little Pieder in bustling Manhattan.
[01:04:31]  Hey, she's 22.
[01:04:32]  And I noticed something and I mentioned it to Brace.
[01:04:37]  I said, Brace, my bum knee hurts.
[01:04:39]  I think it's going to rain.
[01:04:41]  Okay.
[01:04:41]  Now, Brace laughed at me, naturally.
[01:04:45]  Scoffed, even, I would say, and was like, oh, this is my Brace impression.
[01:04:51]  Oh, your bum knee hurts.
[01:04:54]  Okay, whatever.
[01:04:56]  Scoff, scoff, scoff, scoff.
[01:04:58]  I want to say we recorded a podcast or whatever we did.
[01:05:02]  I left the apartment.
[01:05:03]  We both left the apartment together.
[01:05:05]  Raining.
[01:05:07]  Interjection.
[01:05:09]  Interjection.
[01:05:10]  Actually, you know what?
[01:05:12]  I'm going to dismiss everything she just said.
[01:05:14]  Overruled.
[01:05:15]  Overruled.
[01:05:15]  not overruled.
[01:05:17]  You described to me when we were walking to lunch the other day, perfect fucking memory Belden right here.
[01:05:23]  You said, oh, my knee hurts.
[01:05:25]  I think it's going to rain.
[01:05:27]  And you know what happened?
[01:05:29]  You know what happened that day?
[01:05:30]  It rained.
[01:05:31]  It did rain a little bit later.
[01:05:33]  Hey.
[01:05:34]  Not overruled.
[01:05:36]  I didn't even say that that was wrong.
[01:05:39]  I didn't scoff.
[01:05:40]  I was like, you're always scoffing at me.
[01:05:43]  Well, all right.
[01:05:44]  I wonder why.
[01:05:46]  Hey, everyone.
[01:05:47]  I'm Liz.
[01:05:49]  My name.
[01:05:52]  My name is Brace, and they're actually called Houseless Knees.
[01:05:56]  This is producer Young Chomsky, and the podcast is called True Enough.
[01:06:02]  We'll see you next time.
[01:06:04]  Bye-bye.
[01:06:23]  Come out.