True Anon Truth Feed - 👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 10 👁️
Aired: 2021-12-11
Duration: 01:06:16


=== True and On: Anon's Yell (03:39) ===

[00:00:00]  Day 10.
[00:00:01]  Ghlaine Maxwell trial.
[00:00:04]  Still going.
[00:00:07]  Oh, everyone.
[00:00:24]  Greetings.
[00:00:25]  Happy Friday.
[00:00:26]  Happy Friday to you.
[00:00:27]  Happy Friday.
[00:00:28]  Yourself.
[00:00:29]  And myself.
[00:00:30]  I know all you podcast listeners out there are.
[00:00:33]  The steel mill whistle just whistled, and you and your hard-hatted compatriots are gonna go off and hang out in the tavern until your wives come in and drag you out by the ears and force you to listen to a podcast.
[00:00:48]  So uh, from us to you, get ready for saturday.
[00:00:52]  Before you do that though uh-huh, I need to say something.
[00:00:57]  Oh great yeah, my name is Liz, my name is Brace Belden.
[00:01:03]  We are, of course, joined here by producer Young Chomsky, and the podcast is, we're legally required to inform you is called true and on.
[00:01:10]  Yeah, we're learning a lot about the law, I gotta say.
[00:01:13]  People asking us who we're with yeah, at the courthouse, the whole mask thing trying to say Truanon really does not get through to people.
[00:01:24]  Yeah, it's a mushmouth thing.
[00:01:26]  They're like, well, that's because when you say it, you're like true, anon.
[00:01:29]  Yeah, it's like hey, who are you with?
[00:01:31]  They're like hey, who are you with?
[00:01:32]  And you're like true, anon.
[00:01:34]  Yeah, i've just been telling people i'm with the police.
[00:01:37]  There is like a bit of a yeah, you know, observer.
[00:01:40]  There is the guy in the NYPD hat, though not a cop.
[00:01:44]  I don't think he's with the police.
[00:01:45]  No, I don't understand that.
[00:01:47]  Listen, he's just standing the cops, or he just knows that they exist.
[00:01:51]  I don't know.
[00:01:52]  Maybe he doesn't like Chicago PD and he has to like show that he's like going on a different.
[00:01:57]  Yeah, you know what?
[00:01:58]  Not a hat guy, so no day 10.
[00:02:00]  um guys the prosecution rested it rested it's over it's done the case is done no case is not done yes so there has been a lot of people being like what i mean we talked about this the other day it's like what yeah trial is over but trial's not over no i don't know why people think that do people not know how trials work I would hope that most people had never been on trial, but yes, no.
[00:02:27]  So, the way it goes is prosecution.
[00:02:29]  So, like the people who work for the government yell at you, and then the guys that you hire to yell at the government, they yell, after the government's finished yelling at you and saying, Oh, he's so bad, you shouldn't have stolen all that money.
[00:02:39]  You get your guys, your Jewish guys that you hire, and then they yell at the government goys that they hired.
[00:02:47]  Oh, my God.
[00:02:48]  Government doesn't have a, yeah, don't get me started on that.
[00:02:52]  Big imbalance there.
[00:02:54]  Oh, my God.
[00:02:55]  Um, and then uh, then you make some closing arguments, and then the jury decide whether to convict you just because you borrowed a little money from some people who might have given you it.
[00:03:06]  Yeah, so today the prosecution rested their case, they finished up their case, they went through their final witnesses who were all cross-examined by the prosecution or by the defense.
[00:03:17]  And they said, Okay, we rest, and the defense will start their case next week.
[00:03:22]  But before we get into the details of what we witnessed, the witnesses witnessing today, a couple little points I want to mention.
[00:03:32]  Mention them.
[00:03:33]  One, we found out something shocking today.
[00:03:36]  I was floored.

=== Two Victims Controversy (14:42) ===

[00:03:39]  Cafe Lorenzo, the chef at Cafe Lorenzo, is not named Lorenzo.
[00:03:45]  He is, in fact, named Steve.
[00:03:49]  No, well, it's not only that, Liz.
[00:03:52]  So, all right, not to not to debunk you a little bit here.
[00:03:56]  We already found out the chef is nothing to, he's not Lorenzo at all, and he quit.
[00:04:01]  The owner of Cafe Lorenzo.
[00:04:03]  Excuse me, you're right, I misspoke.
[00:04:05]  Who we were previously led to believe was the Lorenzo himself.
[00:04:09]  Yes, is a Steve.
[00:04:11]  Yeah, he's named Steve, but he named it Cafe Lorenzo, which I think is false advertising.
[00:04:17]  Absolutely false advertising.
[00:04:19]  Not feeling great about this guy anymore.
[00:04:21]  No, they did put up some Christmas decorations, though.
[00:04:23]  Yes.
[00:04:24]  That was very cute.
[00:04:24]  Notably absent when the trial first started when there was another holiday going on, but I guess who cares about that?
[00:04:30]  Anyway, another little beat that I want to mention: Bobby Sternheim.
[00:04:36]  We've seen her now in the flesh.
[00:04:38]  Yeah.
[00:04:38]  Walking about the halls.
[00:04:39]  Yeah.
[00:04:40]  Very confident stride.
[00:04:42]  I would say it's a stride.
[00:04:44]  Oh, yeah.
[00:04:45]  She moves, man.
[00:04:46]  Yeah.
[00:04:47]  Oh, she's moving and grooving.
[00:04:49]  Everything about Bobby Sternheim makes sense.
[00:04:52]  Like, it all falls, the puzzle all fits together right there.
[00:04:55]  So I was previously under the impression that she had kind of like a white platinum, very ashy blonde.
[00:05:03]  Again, circa, very similar again.
[00:05:06]  Emily Weiss into the gloss.
[00:05:08]  Everyone knows what I'm talking about.
[00:05:09]  Yeah.
[00:05:11]  No, it's purple.
[00:05:13]  She has purple hair.
[00:05:13]  Yeah.
[00:05:14]  Elaine Maxwell's lawyer has purple hair.
[00:05:16]  Knew this already, but that's also because I can detect a woman with purple hair from a million miles away because those are the women most likely to yell at me about something.
[00:05:25]  Oh my god.
[00:05:26]  She doesn't have that kind of purple hair.
[00:05:28]  I want to be clear about that.
[00:05:30]  It's like a silver purple.
[00:05:32]  Yeah, it's like an older lady purple rather than like, this is my sexuality purple.
[00:05:37]  Yes.
[00:05:37]  Also, cowboy boots.
[00:05:40]  Yes, which she told us were Eastern boots today.
[00:05:44]  She made a joke.
[00:05:45]  Okay, again, friend of the pod, Marlon.
[00:05:47]  Yeah.
[00:05:47]  Ettinger.
[00:05:48]  He takes one for the team because I was saying, hey, I think Bobby's worn Western boots.
[00:05:52]  And he goes, hey, Bobby, Bobby, question.
[00:05:54]  I'm a member of the press.
[00:05:56]  Are you wearing Western boots?
[00:05:59]  And she was kind of like taken aback and says, well, we're on the East Coast.
[00:06:03]  So technically, they're Eastern boots, which I don't think is very clever.
[00:06:07]  That doesn't make any sense.
[00:06:08]  That's how he kissed me after.
[00:06:09]  That was fucking the weirdest morning of my life.
[00:06:11]  That is not what happened.
[00:06:12]  I've passed out in her arms.
[00:06:14]  Oh, my God.
[00:06:15]  So speaking of mornings, you know what?
[00:06:20]  The prosecution decided only one thing could make court more interesting is to bring their friends from the DMV in.
[00:06:28]  Oh, yeah.
[00:06:28]  The first witness, this took us all by surprise.
[00:06:31]  They got a guy from the DMV.
[00:06:33]  William Brown, which I was hoping when they announced his name, I was hoping it was a former mayor of San Francisco, Willie Brown, who, by the way, claims he was warned that 9-11 was going to happen.
[00:06:42]  And blind.
[00:06:43]  Look it up.
[00:06:44]  Willie Brown's not blind.
[00:06:45]  Yes, he is.
[00:06:46]  You think Willie Brown's blind?
[00:06:48]  You don't know this?
[00:06:49]  How can he tell?
[00:06:50]  Well, he's like, how can he cheat on his wife then?
[00:06:52]  Doesn't he just assume it's degenerative?
[00:06:54]  Oh, he is.
[00:06:55]  Yeah, he is.
[00:06:56]  No, no, he is.
[00:06:57]  He's like fully.
[00:06:58]  Yeah.
[00:06:59]  One of my most hated guys.
[00:07:01]  But no, this was William Brown, the DMV Division of Field Investigations.
[00:07:08]  And, you know, that's not a real division.
[00:07:10]  Yeah, I hope not because I've been fucking driving around that racetrack.
[00:07:14]  No license to my name.
[00:07:15]  But he, you know, I was a little confused at first.
[00:07:19]  And they started asking him questions, you know, just like the computer guy we were talking about the other, the cart fell we were talking about the other day, like basically, what is an ID?
[00:07:27]  How do you get an ID?
[00:07:28]  What's the process for getting an ID?
[00:07:30]  And then they had him identify a couple of sealed exhibits for us.
[00:07:35]  And we were sort of given, and he identified some dates on them, but we weren't really given an idea of who the pictures were.
[00:07:45]  Yeah, we couldn't see anything.
[00:07:46]  He did give one important clue in that the birth date of the person.
[00:07:55]  Well, he was asked by the prosecution, if someone was born in 1985, how old would they be in 1996?
[00:08:02]  And he said 11 years old.
[00:08:04]  And I was confused for a sec because I was like, what?
[00:08:08]  I mean, Annie Farmer's set to testify.
[00:08:11]  You know, we, we, we.
[00:08:13]  She has nothing to do with New York State.
[00:08:15]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:16]  I mean, beside from her brief visit here, it's like we didn't, it doesn't seem like she ever got an ID or license here or anything.
[00:08:23]  And then, of course, it has to be Jane number two and Jane number one.
[00:08:30]  In fact, so wait, when you say Jane number two, can you go back and explain?
[00:08:34]  Once again, like, like, you know, my anger at the prosecution over not grilling Vysaski about this when he purposely muddied the waters, you know, hand in hand with the defense.
[00:08:45]  So, Jane number one, victim number one, yes, here, but I'm also calling her Jane number one because there's a Jane number two who is not victim number two.
[00:08:54]  There is, no, there is someone that we refer to as having the same name as Jane.
[00:09:00]  Yes.
[00:09:00]  But she is not a Jane Doe.
[00:09:02]  So we shouldn't call her Jane number two.
[00:09:03]  We should just say someone who has the same name as Jane.
[00:09:06]  Yes.
[00:09:06]  Okay.
[00:09:06]  Yeah.
[00:09:06]  All right.
[00:09:07]  Let's do that.
[00:09:07]  So someone who has the same name as Jane.
[00:09:11]  Boy, this sounds like a nursery rhyme or something.
[00:09:14]  Who worked?
[00:09:16]  I mean, like I said, tragic, kind of a tragic story, but you know, it has been framed as an Epstein accomplice.
[00:09:23]  I also think she was an Epstein victim as well.
[00:09:26]  Said to have purchased her from, well, I can't, again, can't give way to any identified information, much identified information.
[00:09:32]  But anyways, Jane, who has the Jane, the person who shares the same name as Jane the victim.
[00:09:40]  Yes.
[00:09:41]  Was born.
[00:09:43]  The dates just don't match up.
[00:09:44]  And the fact that the prosecution didn't get Vysoski on this infuriated me.
[00:09:49]  They did eventually kind of correct course with David Rogers, although in the recross examination.
[00:09:56]  And so now they've brought in somebody to kind of like positively identify this.
[00:10:00]  Like, this is not the same girl.
[00:10:02]  Yeah.
[00:10:02]  So basically, just to back up, so the defense was trying to muddy the waters by saying that the flight records that the prosecution say show that Jane, victim Jane, Jane victim number one, flew to New York, to Palm Beach, when she was 14 years old in 1996.
[00:10:24]  The defense was like, that only, in many of these cases, only her first name is written down.
[00:10:30]  And that first name shares, could like, that's also the first name of someone who worked for Epstein for a long time.
[00:10:37]  And so there's no way to say whether or not it was the woman who worked for Epstein or Jane victim number one.
[00:10:45]  Yes.
[00:10:46]  Now, the prosecution seemed to be caught a little by surprise by that argument, which was did not fill me with hope.
[00:10:55]  Yeah, it didn't feel great.
[00:10:56]  Not a lot of confidence there.
[00:10:57]  And so what they did was then they bring in this guy from the DMV who says, well, looking at this girl's application for an ID, you can see that she would have been 11 years old in 1996.
[00:11:12]  So she could not have been working for Jeffrey Epstein at that point.
[00:11:16]  Yes.
[00:11:17]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:18]  And so hopefully that puts that to bed once and for all.
[00:11:22]  I think it does.
[00:11:22]  Yeah.
[00:11:23]  I mean, I'll be real with you.
[00:11:24]  Could have brought that guy out right after Vysowski.
[00:11:28]  Well, that's the thing.
[00:11:29]  They didn't have it.
[00:11:30]  Yeah.
[00:11:30]  They didn't.
[00:11:30]  I don't think they knew it.
[00:11:31]  I don't think they're going to be able to do it.
[00:11:32]  I think they totally got caught.
[00:11:33]  Yeah, me too.
[00:11:34]  Yeah.
[00:11:36]  Which is, you know, number one rule, both in the court and on the courts.
[00:11:40]  Don't get caught slipping.
[00:11:42]  Yeah.
[00:11:42]  Okay.
[00:11:43]  So, like we said, Annie Farmer, victim number four.
[00:11:47]  She, sorry.
[00:11:48]  God damn it.
[00:11:49]  We keep doing this.
[00:11:50]  Victim number two.
[00:11:51]  Yes.
[00:11:52]  Yes.
[00:11:54]  She testified.
[00:11:54]  But the fourth, yeah, whatever.
[00:11:56]  She went last.
[00:11:57]  Okay, but she's victim number two in the indictment.
[00:12:00]  She testified today.
[00:12:01]  Yes.
[00:12:03]  It was fantastic.
[00:12:05]  Yeah, she did a really sort of, I don't know if that sounds appropriate to say, but incredible job.
[00:12:12]  Yeah.
[00:12:13]  Unflapping testimony.
[00:12:15]  One of the least flappable women I've seen.
[00:12:16]  No flapping.
[00:12:17]  No flapping whatsoever.
[00:12:19]  I will say, so there has been some controversy with two victims sort of in the leading up to this trial and during this trial.
[00:12:28]  That was victim number three, who we talked about before, Kate, the British woman, who it was decided that it might not have been technically illegal.
[00:12:39]  What happened to her, at least what is detailed in the indictment happened to her, may not have been precisely illegal, but she was still allowed to testify with some caveats brought forth by the judge and then more that would be brought forth before the jury gets to jury.
[00:12:57]  Similar caveats were brought forth for Annie Farmer, who is, by the way, the only accuser here who is going fully non-anonymous, first and last name.
[00:13:09]  Basically, they said it was limiting instructions.
[00:13:12]  The judge alerted the jury that the alleged physical contact was not illegal activity.
[00:13:19]  So that got charged in the indictment, right?
[00:13:21]  And so basically, she's still allowed to testify because this adds some pretty important color to the charges.
[00:13:30]  And this does kind of corroborate the actual charges against Ghelane Maxwell.
[00:13:35]  With Annie Farmer, I think she's only including one of the conspiracy counts.
[00:13:40]  And so I'm not sure this would affect that, although with the charging conference, I guess we'll see how that shakes out.
[00:13:47]  But she was still obviously allowed to testify and there were corroborating witnesses.
[00:13:51]  And I got to say, overall, really effective.
[00:13:54]  So, I mean, to be real, like we said, from the jury's point of view, even though they're being told all this stuff, this is like really heavy kind of corroboration that gives a lot of context for how Ghelane and Epstein operated.
[00:14:11]  Yeah, so to be clear, the reason why they say it's not illegal is because Annie was 16 years old and the sexual, the alleged sexual contact happened in New Mexico where the age of consent is 16.
[00:14:24]  Yeah.
[00:14:25]  That seems so crazy to me.
[00:14:26]  I know.
[00:14:27]  What the fuck is going on in New Mexico?
[00:14:28]  What is going on in New Mexico?
[00:14:30]  I know.
[00:14:31]  I know.
[00:14:32]  Why do they do that?
[00:14:33]  I think it's a lot of states.
[00:14:34]  Listen, I'm no expert on the age of consent.
[00:14:37]  But I think that's probably the case.
[00:14:40]  I'm glad that you don't know anything about that.
[00:14:41]  I don't know anything about it.
[00:14:42]  I think that's a bad time.
[00:14:44]  None of my business.
[00:14:45]  Ladies, your man is an expert on the age of consent.
[00:14:49]  Red flag.
[00:14:50]  Yeah.
[00:14:51]  And you're 15.
[00:14:52]  Dump him.
[00:14:53]  Yes.
[00:14:54]  I mean, I guess I probably should be because of the content of the show, but frankly, I'll be real with you.
[00:14:59]  I still think it's a red flag.
[00:15:00]  When it comes up, I'll deal with it.
[00:15:02]  You know, case by case.
[00:15:03]  Don't let it come up.
[00:15:04]  Yeah.
[00:15:05]  Well, we do do a show about this.
[00:15:10]  But so she, Annie Farmer, is, I think she, she became pretty well known.
[00:15:15]  There was an article in the New York Times about her and her sister Maria Farmer, who we've had on the show.
[00:15:20]  And we'll talk about a little more about how their cases are sort of intertwined during our description of this.
[00:15:28]  They were some of the first people that actually went to the police about Epstein and Ghelane, and then later were interviewed in 2006 by the FBI.
[00:15:39]  And none of that went anywhere.
[00:15:41]  They were also supposed to be included in a 2003, I think, piece by Vicki Ward.
[00:15:46]  Vicki Ward, who is in the courtroom.
[00:15:50]  And that was excised from the piece by Graydon Carter, who has come up with the most insane reasons why he took it out, other than the most obvious one is that he didn't want to get in trouble or get a guy who's in his friend's friends group or whatever in any sort of problems.
[00:16:10]  And the fact is, Vicki knew Ghelane.
[00:16:12]  So both of them have these.
[00:16:15]  Well, also, yeah.
[00:16:15]  And remember that that piece that was recovered from Ghulane's computer, that was like the press puff piece about her and Jeffree's relationship was originally written and sent to Vicki Ward.
[00:16:28]  Exactly.
[00:16:29]  And so, you know, all of that kind of culminates in, I guess, today, you know, she's on the stand and facing down Ghelane.
[00:16:39]  And I think she says very bluntly that she's doing this so that Ghelane kind of gets to face the music.
[00:16:44]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:16:45]  She gets the justice that she deserves.
[00:16:46]  Absolutely.
[00:16:47]  So she is 42 years old and she is a, has a PhD in educational psychology and works as a therapist.
[00:16:57]  So both of those seem like really good things for somebody who's going to testify to have.
[00:17:04]  Because like Liz was saying, unflappable.
[00:17:06]  Yeah.
[00:17:07]  She was cool as a cucumber and very consistent.
[00:17:10]  I mean, it was, you know, we talked about how, for example, like Carolyn's testimony.
[00:17:17]  And again, this is typical of, you know, when there's a huge gap in time, there's going to be like discrepancies in stories.
[00:17:28]  It's just, this is how it works.
[00:17:30]  But I have to say, like, Annie is incredibly consistent in every single time she's spoken about what happened to her as a kid.
[00:17:42]  Like from the time that she's ever said something, like through now, which is basically like 25 years.
[00:17:48]  It's exactly.
[00:17:49]  Because like, you know, for instance, Jane's case, I mean, it started in the 90s, right?
[00:17:55]  And that is a huge gap.
[00:17:56]  And if you're interviewed sort of intermittently about this by the government, or even if you're interviewed like once and then a couple years later, you've got more time to think about it, you know, like more memories come up, you know, your story is naturally going to change too.
[00:18:10]  And also, the thing is, Annie's abuse sort of took place over two very distinct time, not time periods, but basically two incidents.

=== Movies and Homecomings (14:43) ===

[00:18:21]  Yeah.
[00:18:21]  And that would also stick out more in her mind because both of those took place away, took place away from home, right?
[00:18:30]  One in New York City and one in New Mexico.
[00:18:33]  Yeah.
[00:18:33]  So the first one is she was basically invited to come visit her sister Maria, who was working for Jeffrey Epstein at the time.
[00:18:42]  Yes.
[00:18:42]  And if you want the full backstory on that, we did a pretty extensive interview with Maria Farmer that talks about a lot of the background of this and her experience with Epstein because she was also a victim of Jeffrey Epstein and Glene Maxwell.
[00:18:56]  That is, I will, I guess, post this underneath that.
[00:18:59]  Yeah.
[00:19:00]  But yeah, so she was invited by basically, made it sound like Epstein was saying, oh, come out here and visit your sister.
[00:19:07]  I'm buying her basically paying for you to come visit her as like a gift for your sister.
[00:19:14]  Yeah.
[00:19:14]  And so she comes over their like high school Christmas break.
[00:19:17]  She goes and stays with Maria in her apartment for about a week.
[00:19:22]  Yeah.
[00:19:22]  And one of the things that they do is they go to a bunch of like shows together.
[00:19:28]  Blue Man Group came up, which was a nice little, you know, nod to it.
[00:19:32]  Yeah.
[00:19:33]  Yeah, well, you can picture the time period.
[00:19:35]  Well, Blue Man Group still plays.
[00:19:36]  I went to me.
[00:19:37]  I went to a goddamn friend of the pot.
[00:19:39]  Well, I went to visit a former guest on the on the podcast, Moss Robeson, at his place of work.
[00:19:48]  And I passed by Blue Man Group.
[00:19:50]  Really?
[00:19:51]  Yes, it's still going.
[00:19:53]  Oh my God.
[00:19:54]  Yeah.
[00:19:54]  I can't give any more details besides that because I don't want to see where it works.
[00:19:58]  I never got it.
[00:19:59]  So they just are blue?
[00:20:01]  Yeah.
[00:20:01]  And they're men and then what do they do?
[00:20:03]  Well, they're in a group.
[00:20:05]  What do they do?
[00:20:06]  Do they sing?
[00:20:08]  It's a guy thing.
[00:20:09]  You wouldn't get it.
[00:20:09]  Oh my God.
[00:20:10]  But yeah, Maria's nine years older than Annie and she's working for Epstein essentially at this time.
[00:20:17]  Yeah.
[00:20:18]  They go see Phantom of the Opera, just the two of them.
[00:20:20]  Yes.
[00:20:21]  But their interaction with Epstein was they went to, you know, Epstein invites them to the townhouse and Annie, you know, remarks that she's never been in such a, you know, such a large, I mean, incredible place.
[00:20:34]  Yeah.
[00:20:34]  You know, she says it's, you know, full of fairly nice things and there's all this like, you know, beautiful furniture.
[00:20:41]  He starts asking her about her, you know, talking to her in that like Epstein way of like, so what are your plans for high school?
[00:20:47]  Maybe I can help you with college.
[00:20:48]  You know, he's always like trying to kind of say that he can, you know, make help students make connections.
[00:20:54]  Yes, yeah, yeah.
[00:20:55]  Blah, blah, blah.
[00:20:56]  And that's what I'm saying.
[00:20:56]  He's a big believer in education.
[00:20:58]  Yes, for the second half of this story.
[00:21:01]  Then he, it sounds like they have some champagne, perhaps.
[00:21:04]  Then they go to the movies.
[00:21:06]  Yeah.
[00:21:07]  Which I think is, I don't know.
[00:21:09]  I think there's something really weird about Epstein always taking these kids to movies.
[00:21:13]  So that's actually something that I wasn't really, I guess I didn't grasp the scope of as much before this trial started.
[00:21:19]  Like he went to the movies a lot.
[00:21:21]  At one point, I think it was Carolyn said he went to the movies almost every night that he was in Palm Beach.
[00:21:27]  Like he went to the movies.
[00:21:29]  Yeah, it was Jane.
[00:21:30]  Or maybe Jane that said it.
[00:21:31]  Yeah, but like he went to the movies like very frequently.
[00:21:34]  Like all the time.
[00:21:35]  Yeah.
[00:21:36]  It's weird.
[00:21:37]  Is that like a rich person thing?
[00:21:38]  Like they don't know what else to do.
[00:21:39]  They are expensive.
[00:21:40]  I don't know.
[00:21:41]  No, I just, it's like, I mean, I love movies and I love movie theaters.
[00:21:45]  Yeah.
[00:21:46]  But like.
[00:21:46]  The last time I went to the movies.
[00:21:48]  Well, you're not a movie person.
[00:21:49]  I know.
[00:21:50]  Anyway, so they go to the movies.
[00:21:51]  So Maria's sitting there.
[00:21:53]  Jeffrey Epstein is in the middle.
[00:21:55]  Yeah.
[00:21:55]  And Annie's on the other side of Epstein.
[00:21:58]  And so what Epstein does during this, and this is, this gave me, this was, it's, it's, I don't know, this might sound strange because it sounds sort of so small, but I can so picture this happening.
[00:22:10]  And I, I've, I've known so many people who've been in similar situations.
[00:22:13]  And I've also kind of been in like weird situations like this too.
[00:22:17]  But Epstein is essentially trying to like hold Annie's hand during this because keep in mind he's sitting between her and her sister.
[00:22:26]  You know, he's kind of a bigger guy.
[00:22:28]  He's like trying to like secretly hold her hand and then he starts rubbing her leg and rubbing her foot and like kind of just like feeling feeling up on her.
[00:22:37]  And he doesn't touch, you know, she makes it clear during her testimony that he doesn't like touch her private part.
[00:22:42]  Yeah.
[00:22:43]  But he's definitely like, it's almost.
[00:22:45]  It's like he's playing footsie.
[00:22:47]  Exactly.
[00:22:47]  But you know what it feels like to me?
[00:22:49]  It's like the very physical manifestation of grooming.
[00:22:53]  Interesting.
[00:22:54]  Yes.
[00:22:54]  I see what you mean.
[00:22:55]  Yeah, like he's like, he's like, he's testing the boundaries.
[00:22:58]  Exactly.
[00:22:58]  Like he's sort of dipping his toe in the water and being like, you know, this is normal.
[00:23:03]  And like, he's connecting it like, look, I've done this such a nice, such been such a nice week.
[00:23:07]  I've done all these things for you.
[00:23:08]  Here to take you to see this movie.
[00:23:10]  You're with your sister, like it's safe.
[00:23:12]  Exactly.
[00:23:13]  Yeah, she says too that he was very conscious of the fact that anytime Maria would look over, he would kind of stop and pull back.
[00:23:21]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:21]  And she said that Maria was very protective of her.
[00:23:23]  I mean, nine years older, so you're going to be, you know, very protective of your little sister.
[00:23:27]  Absolutely.
[00:23:28]  Yeah.
[00:23:29]  And she, you know, Annie was asked how she felt about it.
[00:23:32]  And she said, you know, that she was really surprised because she was, she's like, this is my sister's boss.
[00:23:37]  Yeah.
[00:23:38]  It was just not a really, you know, you're a kid.
[00:23:40]  You don't think this is something that's happening.
[00:23:43]  You don't automatically assume your sister's boss who's taking you guys to the movies together is going to start feeling up on your foot.
[00:23:48]  Yeah.
[00:23:49]  She says that it made her really anxious.
[00:23:52]  Yeah.
[00:23:53]  And that she felt really sick to her stomach about it.
[00:23:57]  She didn't tell her sister.
[00:23:58]  She didn't want to tell her sister.
[00:24:00]  She said she was very confused and, you know, she really didn't want to jeopardize anything with like her sister's job.
[00:24:10]  Yeah.
[00:24:10]  Because, you know, I mean, and they, you know, they mentioned this, and we're going to hear from her mother in a little bit, who also takes the stand.
[00:24:17]  But she says, you know, you know, Maria's living in New York by herself.
[00:24:20]  She just graduated school.
[00:24:21]  She's 25.
[00:24:22]  She's trying to be an artist.
[00:24:24]  And Annie's living at home with her mom, who's a single mom.
[00:24:28]  They don't have a lot of money.
[00:24:29]  You know, that's like something that she really, I think she, you know, there's a certain point when you're like, I would say 15, 16, where you start to become more aware of your family as adults and their like place as adults.
[00:24:46]  And it's not a responsibility you feel, but you sort of start growing up in a different way where you kind of want to make things maybe a little easier for them or you want to like just be sensitive to these things in a different way.
[00:24:59]  Well, you because you're starting to sort of have these more contacts with the adult world and you're, you're, you see that that's kind of like looming on your horizon.
[00:25:07]  So you start to see your parents' place in it too.
[00:25:09]  Yeah, totally.
[00:25:11]  You know, it's like when you realize that your dad isn't the boss at his work.
[00:25:15]  Right, exactly.
[00:25:16]  And you're like, oh, wait, he's like just another guy there.
[00:25:19]  Yeah.
[00:25:19]  So she decides not to say anything.
[00:25:21]  Yeah.
[00:25:22]  But she does, and this is really crucial.
[00:25:24]  She writes an entry in her diary.
[00:25:26]  Yeah.
[00:25:27]  Well, there's actually two entries.
[00:25:28]  So she, and this, this became sort of a really poor Point in the cross-examination.
[00:25:33]  I think they bungled this.
[00:25:34]  I mean, there's no way to do this successfully, but they, so the first entry she writes, which I believe is either the day she got home, or like maybe she said, like, maybe the day after, but like, right when she got home, has this sort of like really, I mean, it's, and it, it's, they showed us the whole entry and she read the entire thing out loud.
[00:25:51]  And it's kind of like, it's so teenage and like comes from someone who's obviously like a very sweet young girl, you know, talking about how magical New York was and how she always feels so different after trips, but like this time, and like in a good way, but this time she felt like that feeling like that sort of like that she's changed is going to stay with her and that's like a good thing and like she could see herself in New York City.
[00:26:14]  Yeah.
[00:26:15]  Nothing about Epstein there, but just shortly after there is another entry.
[00:26:20]  Yeah.
[00:26:20]  I want to say too that like we had pictures of the diary entries that were submitted.
[00:26:24]  So it's not like typed or anything and it has that like round bubble teenage girl handwriting that adds to this real like because something I've been thinking was that we're hearing from now grown grown women.
[00:26:38]  Yeah.
[00:26:39]  Like Annie is 42, 44.
[00:26:41]  42.
[00:26:42]  42.
[00:26:43]  And it's sometimes when you're hearing that, it's almost a little, you know, you're not hearing the testimony of a young girl.
[00:26:50]  Yeah.
[00:26:51]  And so kind of like making that connection, it takes your brain maybe like one or two steps.
[00:26:56]  This is something we've talked about with some of the, especially with Jane and Kate, you know, that there's a, you know, a different voice that you're hearing.
[00:27:02]  And so it's, you know, you have to make different leaps consciously.
[00:27:07]  Absolutely.
[00:27:07]  But here you're actually seeing like teen beat handwriting, Dear Diary, you know, and like you said, there's a second entry where she really says, like, she starts working through in real time her really mixed feelings about how she felt really uncomfortable about what happened with Epstein.
[00:27:28]  Yeah.
[00:27:28]  And she names him Jeff.
[00:27:29]  She says Jeff Epstein.
[00:27:31]  And that she says like a couple of times, it was weird, but also maybe it's not that weird.
[00:27:37]  You know, maybe she's, she's trying to kind of say like, maybe this is just something I don't totally understand as a young girl.
[00:27:44]  This is like an adult thing.
[00:27:45]  Like she's trying to rationalize it, but also not apologize for it at the same time.
[00:27:49]  The thing is, yeah, exactly.
[00:27:51]  And it's sort of astounding to see her actually working through this because if you're, if you're ever a teenager who's been in a situation, or even this probably happened to this, it happens to adults too.
[00:28:01]  You're in a situation where like you know something isn't right, right?
[00:28:05]  Yeah, like something goes like something goes off in your head and in your body.
[00:28:10]  This is something wrong happening.
[00:28:11]  I can imagine this is a pretty common kind of line of thinking when sexual harassment, especially happens at work.
[00:28:19]  Because it's like, you're like, this is happening, you know, like, but no, like this can't be.
[00:28:23]  But so she, she, she basically says, like, you know, he caressed my arm, shoe, and foot.
[00:28:30]  It wasn't weird, probably normal, which by the way, if you're saying it's like so heartbreaking to read a kid saying it's probably normal, like basically saying, I just don't understand it yet because I'm not an adult.
[00:28:42]  Yeah.
[00:28:42]  And she says, like, not a big deal.
[00:28:44]  Probably really don't think it's a big deal.
[00:28:46]  Like, I know it sounds like I'm trying to justify him doing something really weird, but I'm really not.
[00:28:51]  And like, it's so clear, like, to anybody, no matter how emotionally stunted or, you know, whatever anybody, any witness to this, her reading this was, it's like, this is so obviously like a textbook case of someone trying to work something out in real time.
[00:29:07]  Yeah.
[00:29:08]  You know, and she uses that word.
[00:29:10]  She basically apologized for it.
[00:29:11]  Exactly.
[00:29:12]  Yeah.
[00:29:12]  Yeah.
[00:29:13]  Almost frame it like, not like it's her fault, but like this is.
[00:29:16]  I'm tripping.
[00:29:17]  Like totally.
[00:29:18]  I can't, you know, I'm just being weird.
[00:29:20]  Yeah.
[00:29:20]  Yeah.
[00:29:20]  I must have interpreted it wrong.
[00:29:22]  Exactly.
[00:29:23]  And she does say, I mean, most of it's her saying it wasn't weird, which obviously means it was weird, but she does actually say it was weird.
[00:29:30]  Yes.
[00:29:30]  At one point, which she mentions during cross.
[00:29:34]  And so she's, she talks to Epstein a few times after that before, because she goes back, right?
[00:29:39]  Like we were saying, she's back home.
[00:29:41]  Yeah, she's back home in Arizona.
[00:29:43]  And she talks to Epstein a few times by phone, and eventually he invites her out to his ranch in New Mexico.
[00:29:49]  So a ranch.
[00:29:50]  Yeah.
[00:29:50]  So later on, I think we can just like cut in here and say some of the mom's testimony because I found this like kind of important.
[00:29:58]  We hear from Annie, Annie's mother, who says she was the one who took the call from Epstein.
[00:30:04]  Yeah.
[00:30:05]  And she says that Epstein told her that he was having a big group trip to his ranch in New Mexico with a bunch of like, you know, kind of like gifted students who he was interested in.
[00:30:18]  Young scholars.
[00:30:19]  Yeah.
[00:30:19]  And what did she say?
[00:30:21]  She framed it as like kind of a retreat.
[00:30:23]  Yeah.
[00:30:23]  Like a weekend retreat where they were like going to talk about what kind of college they wanted to go to.
[00:30:28]  Yeah, it could probably help guide her in selecting a college and that it was, it was supposed to be like a like a college immersion trip, basically.
[00:30:37]  Like we're all, it's going to be a bunch of kids getting together.
[00:30:40]  And her mom, rightly, was like, how do you have all the housing for like 20 to 25 students?
[00:30:46]  That's what Jeff, she says Jeffrey told her.
[00:30:48]  And he says, oh, I have all of these cabins on my ranch and it'll be fine.
[00:30:54]  Her mom says, oh, is it co-ed?
[00:30:58]  Is it just, is it just girls?
[00:30:59]  Is it boys?
[00:31:01]  He says, it's co-ed.
[00:31:03]  Her mom says, well, who's going to be chaperoning the girls?
[00:31:08]  And he says, my wife, Ghelane Maxwell.
[00:31:12]  Exactly.
[00:31:12]  And at this point, also, I gasped.
[00:31:15]  Yes.
[00:31:15]  Yeah.
[00:31:15]  Liz did audibly gasp.
[00:31:17]  So, so this is the thing, too, is like, so far, you know, you know, people, people's mothers have come into, they have sort of featured heavily into this.
[00:31:26]  Yeah.
[00:31:26]  This is obviously the first mother to testify.
[00:31:30]  And a lot of the times, you know, you're like, wow, these moms like, really, we're not.
[00:31:34]  Yeah, you're like, where is the mom?
[00:31:35]  Where are the fuck their kids are doing?
[00:31:36]  Totally.
[00:31:37]  But then you hear this and you're like, well, I mean, she asked all the right questions.
[00:31:41]  Exactly.
[00:31:41]  Her other daughter is working for this man.
[00:31:44]  Yes.
[00:31:44]  And it's like supposed to go out there to.
[00:31:46]  That's the whole thing.
[00:31:47]  Jeffrey told her that Maria would be on the trip.
[00:31:49]  Yes.
[00:31:50]  And of course, Annie gets there.
[00:31:54]  There is no Maria, let alone 20 to 25 other scholars.
[00:31:59]  It is her, Jeffrey Epstein, and she's introduced to Ghelane Maxwell.
[00:32:05]  So Ghilane Maxwell is not there in New York, but she meets Ghillaine Maxwell here on the ranch.
[00:32:09]  And she's just there for a weekend.
[00:32:12]  And it is sounds like, honestly, a terrifying, I mean, I think she literally calls it a terrifying experience.
[00:32:21]  Yeah.
[00:32:23]  She says that, you know, she gets there.
[00:32:25]  She quickly realizes she's the only one.
[00:32:28]  And I think that's when she begins to feel really scared, understandably.
[00:32:32]  Yeah.
[00:32:33]  She says that, you know, she meets Ghillane and she finds her very, she says she's very like beautiful and seems interested in her.
[00:32:41]  And that she keeps like, she says she brought all these note cards with her with notes from a paper she was writing on British authors.
[00:32:51]  And she, you know, Ghillaine is British.
[00:32:53]  And so she keeps kind of like referring back to these note cards, trying to get to talk to her about this paper.
[00:32:58]  Like she keeps basically, oh my God, this poor girl, like trying to like bring it back home to like school and college.

=== A Therapist's Massage (14:40) ===

[00:33:05]  And, you know, what can I get from these people about college applications?
[00:33:08]  Maybe they'll help me, you know, whatever.
[00:33:12]  She says that she gets a tour of the property.
[00:33:14]  This is a very large property.
[00:33:18]  They take her into town at one point.
[00:33:21]  Health food store.
[00:33:22]  Yeah, they go to a natural food store where Ghillaine buys her some sort of hair lightening henna product.
[00:33:29]  Yes.
[00:33:29]  Which also felt very of the time.
[00:33:31]  Yeah.
[00:33:31]  This was the first Erewhon location.
[00:33:34]  Yeah.
[00:33:35]  And then she says they take her to a store to buy cowboy boots.
[00:33:39]  So these cowboy boots become somewhat.
[00:33:44]  I guess I get it from one perspective, how heavily they featured into a lot of the following testimony.
[00:33:53]  But boy, they took up a good chunk of the afternoon.
[00:33:57]  Yeah, I don't really, they were like trying to problematize the cowboy boots.
[00:34:00]  And I'm like, I don't know what they were trying to get at.
[00:34:02]  It all was fine.
[00:34:04]  They bought her a pair of black cowboy boots.
[00:34:07]  And we're going to have a little cowboy boots digression here because they spear their way through the afternoon.
[00:34:13]  I will also say, too, they were less cowboy than I thought they would be.
[00:34:16]  They were much less.
[00:34:16]  I thought they were going to be full-on cowboy.
[00:34:18]  It was kind of like a 90s style, like trend cowboy boot.
[00:34:24]  They didn't feel like a proper boot.
[00:34:26]  Yeah.
[00:34:27]  And even like Annie was like, yeah, I don't know, they're boots, you know?
[00:34:31]  Like they looked like a Nine West version of a cowboy boot.
[00:34:34]  Don't know what that is.
[00:34:35]  But so they buy these for Annie and she sort of like, you know, she has them and she, I guess she wears them horseback riding.
[00:34:42]  And she, you know, she takes them back and she sort of puts them in a storage, like she's like a storage facility with like a bunch of her stuff that she stores when she goes off to college.
[00:34:52]  And later, I think it was when she was interviewed by the FBI in 2006, she tells them about it, about the boots.
[00:35:00]  They don't do anything with that information.
[00:35:02]  Because the case goes nowhere.
[00:35:03]  Exactly.
[00:35:04]  And sort of after that, when she realizes the case is going to go nowhere, she decides in her own words that she's going to sort of reclaim them.
[00:35:13]  Yeah, which is not surprising in any.
[00:35:15]  No.
[00:35:15]  I mean, especially, look, she's a therapist.
[00:35:18]  She says that of, you know, she works with lots of different clients, but some of them are also like clients who have suffered sexual trauma.
[00:35:26]  Traumatize kids too.
[00:35:27]  Yeah.
[00:35:27]  Yeah.
[00:35:28]  One of the main kind of like tools for trying to, you know, work through traumatic experiences, particularly ones having to deal with like sexual assault, is to kind of like take ownership back over like your own narrative and like your like your own agency.
[00:35:47]  And in doing so, like one of those, one of the tools like many people reach for is like some of these objects that maybe they've like put to that have symbolic value about the incident.
[00:36:00]  It's like, let me take this and see if I can put it to a different use to rid it of this symbolic value.
[00:36:07]  And now it's like a different part of my life as I'm moving on.
[00:36:10]  Absolutely.
[00:36:11]  This is a common understand.
[00:36:13]  I mean, it's like so clear what it was about.
[00:36:16]  Exactly.
[00:36:17]  And like, I thought that Annie, like in every single thing she said, like I can't stress this enough.
[00:36:22]  She was, especially in the face of cross-examination, so clear and like, you know, really like, even kind of when her voice faltered a little bit, like confident in what she was saying.
[00:36:31]  Absolutely.
[00:36:32]  Right.
[00:36:32]  Like she, she, she was, I mean, she honestly seems like a good therapist.
[00:36:37]  Yeah.
[00:36:37]  So she says that she reclaimed cowboy boots and that she started, that's, she started wearing them when she moved to Texas.
[00:36:44]  And it was like her way of now taking this part of her life that was really traumatic, this incident.
[00:36:50]  Yeah.
[00:36:51]  And, you know, moving forward with it.
[00:36:54]  Yeah.
[00:36:54]  You know, as just part of her story.
[00:36:56]  And now it also has a new part, you know, to her story.
[00:36:59]  Exactly.
[00:36:59]  Yeah.
[00:37:00]  Yeah.
[00:37:01]  These cowboy boots were brought out by the defense team, by Laura Menninger.
[00:37:09]  Like brown safeway bag.
[00:37:10]  Yeah.
[00:37:10]  Literally just in a crumpled brown bag.
[00:37:13]  Very classic evidence bag.
[00:37:15]  It was, yeah.
[00:37:15]  And Annie identifies them.
[00:37:19]  She's like, yeah, these are the boots.
[00:37:20]  And they like have her hold them up.
[00:37:22]  And they start asking like, well, it seems like the, so the heel is worn down.
[00:37:25]  And she's like, yeah.
[00:37:26]  She's like, and the and the toe is scuffed.
[00:37:28]  She's like, yeah.
[00:37:29]  He's like, and the leather, it looks like you worn it once or twice.
[00:37:31]  And I guess what they're trying to prove there is that, like, she didn't think of them as important because she'd mistreated, like, they started calling it evidence.
[00:37:40]  And they were like, well, this evidence here, like, so you wore the evidence?
[00:37:44]  Well, I think it's both.
[00:37:45]  I think it's like they're trying to say, like, because again, they're trying to muddy it up anyway.
[00:37:49]  Absolutely.
[00:37:50]  So they're saying, like, oh, so this thing that you considered evidence, like, you didn't keep safe in case the FBI ever wanted it.
[00:37:57]  You didn't give it to the FBI, even though we know the FBI didn't ask for it.
[00:38:00]  And we know the case didn't go anywhere.
[00:38:02]  Exactly.
[00:38:02]  And also, you put them on because they're special to you.
[00:38:05]  And actually, you liked it.
[00:38:06]  Yeah.
[00:38:06]  And so you liked wearing the boots that he bought you, which means that you couldn't have had a bad time.
[00:38:11]  Exactly.
[00:38:11]  It's like all those at once.
[00:38:13]  Yeah.
[00:38:13]  Yeah.
[00:38:13]  It's like, well, if you, if you hate Ghelaine Maxwell so much, then how come you have the how come you wore the boots that she purchased?
[00:38:20]  And the thing is, she, that just, that fell flat.
[00:38:23]  I mean, that just seemed like such a dead end line of questioning.
[00:38:26]  At least they didn't make her put them on.
[00:38:27]  Exactly.
[00:38:28]  And she's like, you went dancing these boots?
[00:38:29]  She's like, yeah, I went two-step.
[00:38:32]  So we should, we should talk about what happened to her.
[00:38:35]  Absolutely.
[00:38:35]  Yeah.
[00:38:36]  And so, you know, again, she's there for a weekend.
[00:38:39]  And during this weekend, there are two incidents that are basically pertain to what, to, to the indictment.
[00:38:45]  Yeah.
[00:38:46]  So after Epstein and Ghelane buy her the boots, they go to a movie.
[00:38:53]  Yes.
[00:38:54]  Again, the movie thing.
[00:38:57]  Yeah.
[00:38:57]  Very weird.
[00:38:58]  It feels like part of the ritual of all this.
[00:39:00]  It really, it really does.
[00:39:02]  And especially the way, well, I mean, tell, so talk about the seating arrangement here.
[00:39:07]  Yeah.
[00:39:08]  So she says that, you know, she, Ghelane is sitting there, then Epstein, and then Annie.
[00:39:16]  Yeah.
[00:39:16]  She makes an interesting observation before they get into the movie theater, which she says that Ghelane and Jeffrey were like playing with each other in like kind of a rough housing, like childlike way.
[00:39:28]  This is not the first time that we've heard this.
[00:39:31]  Yeah.
[00:39:31]  She says that Ghillain was trying to like pull his pants down like in a pantsing way.
[00:39:37]  She said that.
[00:39:37]  Yeah.
[00:39:39]  Yeah.
[00:39:39]  And it's very weird.
[00:39:41]  Well, to me, that evoked like they were basically trying to make themselves sort of childlike in this way.
[00:39:47]  They're all the same.
[00:39:48]  We're all the same here.
[00:39:50]  And like also this like physical touch that we're doing.
[00:39:53]  Right.
[00:39:54]  Taking each other's pants off, really messing with each other like that.
[00:39:57]  That's normal and that's fine.
[00:39:58]  And we're two adults.
[00:39:59]  And like, you know, the thing is, like, Annie was saying that when she saw, she, you know, saw Ghelane was there, she was a lot less worried because she's like, well, this is Jeffrey Epstein's like wife or girlfriend or whatever.
[00:40:11]  Yeah, so I feel fine.
[00:40:12]  I feel fine.
[00:40:13]  And this is, this is Ghelane and Epstein, you know, blurring the boundaries.
[00:40:17]  Exactly.
[00:40:19]  Showing her sort of This type of touch that they really want to inspire, or not inspire, but like entice her to take.
[00:40:29]  Yeah.
[00:40:30]  So, very similar chain of events occurs where they're in the movie theater.
[00:40:38]  We're back in the movie theater, and Jeffrey's in the middle, and Jeffrey starts grabbing at Annie's hand and holding it, and she says caress.
[00:40:46]  So, it's really like kind of a groping of the hand.
[00:40:48]  Yeah.
[00:40:49]  He starts like playing footsie, having his foot go up her foot and her leg, and that's going on the whole movie.
[00:40:55]  And she feels very frozen and uncomfortable.
[00:40:59]  She notices that he doesn't stop, even though Ghillain is right there.
[00:41:04]  Yeah.
[00:41:04]  And it's not like the time when Maria was sitting next to him.
[00:41:09]  She was explicit, yeah.
[00:41:10]  Yeah, that he's much more comfortable and is it doesn't seem to be afraid of Ghillain seeing it.
[00:41:16]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:41:18]  It's just like very, very blatant and open about this.
[00:41:21]  And this is like we were saying, this is him.
[00:41:23]  And, you know, she herself identified this.
[00:41:26]  I mean, again, this woman has a fucking, you know, a PhD.
[00:41:29]  She knows how to talk about this kind of stuff.
[00:41:31]  She's talking about him blurring the lines right here and like testing the waters and disrupting her boundaries, right?
[00:41:38]  Because it's a, it's a, the thing of also, the thing about a movie theater too, I was thinking about this earlier, is you're much less inclined to be like, hey, stop that in like a loud voice because there's this sort of expectation of like, you know, and like, it's, it's a good point.
[00:41:54]  That would add to the anxiety.
[00:41:55]  That's awful.
[00:41:56]  Especially the anxiety like a young person would feel in this sort of situation.
[00:41:59]  I mean, I know it makes it that much worse.
[00:42:04]  So after that, they go back to the ranch.
[00:42:07]  Yeah.
[00:42:08]  And she says, this is how she put it.
[00:42:10]  It was decided that I should learn how to give Epstein a massage.
[00:42:13]  Yes.
[00:42:14]  And this is where we begin.
[00:42:15]  This happens with Maria Farmer too, I believe, and so many other victims that, you know, it starts with basically Ghillain saying, let's give Jeffrey a foot massage, or you need to learn how to give Jeffrey a foot massage.
[00:42:28]  Yes.
[00:42:29]  I got to say, even if there wasn't sex stuff happening here, it's such an insanely fucked, like, just like showcase of who's in control and who's in power in these situations, right?
[00:42:43]  Like a teenage girl like netting your foot, even without all the other stuff surrounding that.
[00:42:50]  That in itself is like, send us, that's, you're going to prison.
[00:42:53]  Yeah.
[00:42:54]  So she says that Ghillain starts showing her how to rub his feet and that Epstein is kind of making like groaning noises.
[00:43:01]  Yeah, which is a horrible image.
[00:43:03]  She says, I felt very uncomfortable.
[00:43:04]  I wanted it to stop.
[00:43:05]  I just wanted it to be over as quickly as it could.
[00:43:08]  And then Ghillain asks her if she's ever had a professional massage.
[00:43:12]  Yeah.
[00:43:12]  And Annie's like, no, I'm 16.
[00:43:14]  Like, why would that happen?
[00:43:16]  And she's, and Ghillain is like, oh my God, you would love it.
[00:43:19]  It's the most incredible experience, which is also just a very bizarre way to talk about just a massage, by the way.
[00:43:25]  That's not a normal thing.
[00:43:26]  I had a massages before.
[00:43:29]  Real ones, not sexualized ones, are good.
[00:43:31]  I don't think I would like be effusive to a teenager, I would be like, oh my God.
[00:43:37]  Yeah.
[00:43:37]  Experience, you must.
[00:43:39]  Also, if you're a teenage, like, if you're, you don't need a massage as a fucking teenager unless you're like in the like the high school football.
[00:43:46]  That sounds weird, but you know what I mean?
[00:43:48]  Like, unless you have like sports injuries and shit.
[00:43:50]  Yeah, sure.
[00:43:51]  Totally.
[00:43:52]  So Ghilane is like, no, I'm going to give you a massage.
[00:43:55]  You have to experience this.
[00:43:57]  She sets up a table in the room that Annie is staying in.
[00:44:02]  And she's, Ghillaine tells her to undress.
[00:44:05]  Annie says she gets naked.
[00:44:08]  Then she's like, Ghilaine is rubbing her back.
[00:44:11]  She's under the sheet.
[00:44:12]  And at a certain point, again, this is all so familiar, whether it's Epstein or Ghilane telling it and telling, like, giving the instructions.
[00:44:21]  At one point, she says, okay, turn over.
[00:44:25]  And Annie does, like, she gets on her back.
[00:44:28]  And the sheet, she, like, the sheet is pulled down.
[00:44:32]  So her breasts are totally, her, are totally exposed.
[00:44:35]  And she says, Ghilaine starts rubbing her upper, her chest and her upper breast.
[00:44:40]  Yes.
[00:44:41]  Yeah.
[00:44:42]  And so Ghilane sort of like gives her this massage.
[00:44:47]  And she doesn't, you know, to be clear, and this was made clear in court too.
[00:44:51]  Like she doesn't touch her, her, her crotch, you know, or her, like, you know, different parts of her breast, but her upper breast and her, her chest.
[00:45:00]  And it's like, but this entire time, Annie is saying, she's like, what the fuck is going on?
[00:45:05]  Like, you know, I'm naked with this woman.
[00:45:08]  She's like rubbing my breasts.
[00:45:10]  Like, you know, she's obviously like, she's freaking out right now.
[00:45:14]  Yeah.
[00:45:14]  She also says that she had a sense that the door was open.
[00:45:18]  Yes.
[00:45:18]  And she felt like she didn't know, but she felt like Epstein was watching her.
[00:45:23]  Yes.
[00:45:23]  And I'm sorry, but like you go with your instinct on that.
[00:45:27]  You know 100%.
[00:45:28]  I think that you just like know it in your bones.
[00:45:30]  100%.
[00:45:32]  That's the thing.
[00:45:32]  That's not admissible in court.
[00:45:34]  I understand that.
[00:45:35]  You know, I get that, but she's right.
[00:45:39]  Yeah.
[00:45:39]  And like, just, I mean, with keep it in context, everything we know about Epstein, whether he was watching her through a camera or more likely through like the door.
[00:45:47]  Yeah.
[00:45:47]  It's like that.
[00:45:48]  That is, I don't, I don't, I mean, I don't doubt Annie on any of this, but like I am fully, you know, backing her up on that.
[00:45:55]  Like, I, I, you're right.
[00:45:58]  Yeah.
[00:45:59]  She says that, um, you know, in the morning, she's in the bed in the room that she's staying in.
[00:46:05]  Yeah.
[00:46:05]  And Epstein kind of like, she says bounds in.
[00:46:08]  Yeah.
[00:46:08]  God, I can't picture this.
[00:46:09]  It's like a horrible like child.
[00:46:11]  And he like jumps in the bed and basically is like wants to cuddle.
[00:46:15]  He said, I want to snuggle.
[00:46:18]  Yes.
[00:46:18]  Want to snuggle that is it's disgusting, right?
[00:46:23]  I mean, this is this is a fully grown man jumping into bed with a teenager he has lured to his ranch to snuggle.
[00:46:36]  And the thing is, too, like, so what he does is you know, he's basically she describes he spoons her essentially, yeah, like tightly sort of hugs her.
[00:46:44]  And again, she doesn't describe him as like feeling up on her breast, really.
[00:46:48]  But like pressing his body up on her, yes, which is also like that is a physical imposition of your like physical numbers 100%.
[00:46:55]  But also, he he sort of bear hugs her, you know, like he hug, he puts it, she, she, she sort of demonstrates, he puts his arms around her chest.
[00:47:03]  And like, you know, this is not a huge, hulking, yo, teenage, this is a teenage girl, you know what I mean?
[00:47:11]  She's very small, very small.
[00:47:13]  And she is, as she talks about it, she's like, during this whole trip, she is acutely aware that she's like basically stuck on this ranch with him.
[00:47:21]  Yeah.
[00:47:21]  And like, no, she's afraid.
[00:47:23]  She's afraid, right?
[00:47:24]  And like, I, you can just imagine it.
[00:47:27]  Like her, I, well, I'll just put myself, you know, in this situation.
[00:47:32]  You know, she, she sort of hopes this guy will pay for her college.
[00:47:35]  Her only other idea is student loans, you know, as her mom says.
[00:47:40]  Like, you know, it's her sister's boss, which seems really important to her, which understandably so.

=== Ghilain's Bear Hug (08:58) ===

[00:47:45]  Yeah.
[00:47:46]  You know, you're thinking there, it's like, I don't want this.
[00:47:48]  I want to take the, even if there's a 1% chance this is normal, I want to believe in that 1% chance.
[00:47:54]  Totally.
[00:47:55]  And I don't want to mess anything up for my family or my mom, my sister, anybody.
[00:48:00]  Yeah.
[00:48:01]  I don't want to make trouble.
[00:48:02]  Because you're a teenager and you don't know.
[00:48:03]  I think at that point, you're kind of aware that sometimes there are consequences of stuff that could be that way worse than you could ever imagine.
[00:48:10]  You know, a lot of the times they wouldn't be, but you know, you don't know, right?
[00:48:13]  You don't have enough experience.
[00:48:15]  Also, like, you know, just to this has just popped in my head, but like recalling her diary entry, like when she says about New York, like, oh, I could see myself here.
[00:48:24]  I finally feel like this is a place where I can be myself.
[00:48:27]  So she's thinking, like, okay, I don't want to be in Arizona, right?
[00:48:33]  I, I, I've been to the theater, I've seen New York.
[00:48:35]  This is this whole new life.
[00:48:37]  Like, my ticket to getting out of there is college.
[00:48:41]  It's like this like new worldly life.
[00:48:43]  Like, I don't want to jeopardize that for myself.
[00:48:45]  Yeah.
[00:48:46]  You know, it's just heartbreaking.
[00:48:48]  The whole thing is heartbreaking.
[00:48:49]  She basically, this is going on.
[00:48:51]  She says, and this is a great move, real smart kid.
[00:48:54]  Yeah.
[00:48:54]  To Epstein, she's like, oh my God, I need to go to the bathroom.
[00:48:57]  Really good move.
[00:48:57]  Yeah.
[00:48:58]  Goes to the bathroom, locks herself in the bathroom, waits for him to leave.
[00:49:00]  Yeah.
[00:49:01]  And he does.
[00:49:03]  She tries to like engage Ghilain that day.
[00:49:06]  Yeah.
[00:49:06]  She says that Ghillain is really distant, doesn't really care about talking to her, doesn't seem to have any interest in her making her paper about English authors.
[00:49:15]  Yeah.
[00:49:15]  Just like zero interest, which the defense tried to play off as like, well, that doesn't matter.
[00:49:19]  But like, clearly, that is a pretty important contextual hint here that she was not brought to that house to talk about her education.
[00:49:27]  Yeah.
[00:49:28]  So she says, so she flies home.
[00:49:30]  Her mom says that she picked her up at the airport and she was really silent.
[00:49:34]  And her mom had an idea that she wasn't, something wasn't right, but that Annie kept telling her each time she asked her about it that she didn't want to talk about it.
[00:49:42]  Yeah.
[00:49:44]  And that was the last time she had contact with Epstein or Ghillain.
[00:49:47]  Yeah, Epstein did pay for her to go to Vietnam and Thailand on a sort of like, I guess, I vaguely remember people doing this when I was younger, but like, I guess people go abroad in summer to like build up like college, see like further to get into college.
[00:50:03]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:50:03]  It'll be like, oh, look, I did community service.
[00:50:06]  Yeah.
[00:50:07]  I didn't do that.
[00:50:09]  Yeah.
[00:50:10]  Me neither.
[00:50:10]  But she, you know, she goes to Vietnam and Thailand.
[00:50:13]  Epstein pays for it, but she has no further contact with him after that.
[00:50:20]  You know, this was basically the end of the cross-examination and, or excuse me, the, prosecutor questioning her.
[00:50:30]  And then we get on to the cross-examination done by Laura Menninger, some of which we've already talked about here.
[00:50:35]  But this was a, they tried essentially the same tactic that they've done to varying degrees of success with the other victims on Annie, where they take past statements they've made and then, you know, sort of say, well, you said this during your testimony, but you said this in the past and it's different.
[00:50:55]  And, you know, for like some people, like Juan Alessi, for instance, said during his testimony that he went to Epstein's house one time after you stopped working for him and robbed him of a, you know, thousands of dollars.
[00:51:05]  Whereas previously he'd said that he'd gone there two times, maybe three times, you know, and like there's these, you know, these, these sort of like credibility gaps there.
[00:51:14]  They tried to do the same thing with Annie.
[00:51:16]  And not only did she, it just didn't work.
[00:51:21]  And it became almost confusing.
[00:51:23]  Like it became confusing because they, it just wasn't working.
[00:51:28]  Like they were having her essentially corroborate herself.
[00:51:31]  Yeah, I just, her previous statements were not inconsistent.
[00:51:35]  Like the things that they tried to be like, show that this was inconsistent, like just weren't.
[00:51:40]  It was so clear that maybe if the words were slightly different, the intention and the message that was trying to be conveyed was completely like consistent.
[00:51:49]  Yeah, if the words were different, they were synonyms.
[00:51:51]  Yeah.
[00:51:51]  And I asked, you know, I was talking to someone who was in the courtroom and was just saying like, oh, how did the jury look during this?
[00:51:56]  And she was just like, they looked so fucking bored.
[00:51:59]  And I'm telling, like, I don't think that manager was like, I don't think any of it worked.
[00:52:05]  And the thing is, even just, and this is my little layman's courtroom understanding, even just the way that they were presented, I mean, these are both blonde women with glasses, right?
[00:52:14]  But the way that Annie was talking was so like, you know, attractive in the way that like you were like, you're like, this is like, I believe this woman, right?
[00:52:23]  Like you were like, you sort of naturally drawn, inclined to believe her.
[00:52:27]  And Menninger was so sharp and so like quick, rapid fire and like asking.
[00:52:33]  She's kind of mean.
[00:52:34]  Really mean.
[00:52:35]  Yeah.
[00:52:36]  She went line by line in one of the journal entries and asked her every single line.
[00:52:43]  She was like, you did this, right?
[00:52:44]  And you felt this about this, right?
[00:52:46]  And like, you know, it's just like, it was to the point where it seemed like she was trying to wear Annie down and it just was not working.
[00:52:52]  But it didn't work at all.
[00:52:53]  No.
[00:52:53]  And she came off, she came off Menninger, Laura Menninger, really badly, I thought.
[00:52:59]  Yeah.
[00:53:00]  Then not only does Annie have diary entries that corroborate, because here's the other thing.
[00:53:07]  They made the defense makes a big point about this.
[00:53:09]  Oh, but you don't have a diary entry that corroborates the New Mexico trip, do you?
[00:53:13]  Yeah.
[00:53:14]  She's like, no.
[00:53:15]  Turns out Annie told her high school boyfriend about the encounter.
[00:53:20]  Yes.
[00:53:21]  So Mr. David Mulligan comes to the stand.
[00:53:27]  I love this guy.
[00:53:28]  I love this guy.
[00:53:29]  So like Liz just said, you know, she doesn't have, you know, she kept this diary during her youth and the defense is like, well, you didn't write about this really bad incident that happened to you, which actually really tracks with what, first of all, as somebody who has kept a journal, because diaries are for girls, who's kept a journal since he was a very young man, I've had really bad, some of the worst things I've seen in my life, I have not written in a journal right when they happened.
[00:53:57]  Right, because the act of writing it down is the act of making it real.
[00:54:01]  Exactly.
[00:54:02]  Like I have, I have witnessed some evil deeds.
[00:54:06]  And, you know, it takes you sometimes a long time to kind of get them out.
[00:54:10]  Yeah.
[00:54:11]  But, you know, she starts dating this guy shortly after returning from, I mean, just the next school year.
[00:54:20]  So she's now 17.
[00:54:21]  And they call him to the stand.
[00:54:24]  And, you know, like Sean for Carolyn, but he was just like, it was.
[00:54:30]  And again, this is maybe not so germane to the actual case, but I found the man to be very charming.
[00:54:36]  Oh my God.
[00:54:36]  He was so cozy.
[00:54:37]  Like the most perfect like 90s expert, down to the blue shirt.
[00:54:42]  Oh my God.
[00:54:42]  Gen X all over.
[00:54:44]  Yeah, like through and through.
[00:54:45]  And, you know, he's, they sort of opened up.
[00:54:47]  I said Paul Riser vibes.
[00:54:50]  Yes, which I didn't understand.
[00:54:51]  And I still don't, but I'll Google it after we finish recording this.
[00:54:55]  So they, they, I also wrote, I realize, Menninger being insanely annoying in my notebook.
[00:55:01]  Yeah, well, so they bring him out and this was immediately charming.
[00:55:08]  They asked him, you know, how old are you?
[00:55:10]  He says 42.
[00:55:11]  He's the same age as same age as Annie.
[00:55:13]  You know, what was your degree of education?
[00:55:15]  He says, Masters in special ed.
[00:55:17]  What do you do now?
[00:55:17]  He says, now I'm a baker.
[00:55:19]  And like, that got a big laugh.
[00:55:20]  You know, it's like, it immediately sort of set the tone.
[00:55:23]  This sort of like intelligent but gentle man.
[00:55:26]  Yeah, very gentle.
[00:55:28]  Very, very gentle.
[00:55:29]  And you know what?
[00:55:31]  He corroborates Annie's story.
[00:55:33]  One right down the line.
[00:55:35]  I mean, he was like, look, he basically was like, yeah, she told me about it actually twice.
[00:55:41]  Both times were in the context of they were getting like physically intimate.
[00:55:46]  Yeah.
[00:55:47]  And clearly she was, she had this trauma that then she needed to work out before he and her could get go any further physically.
[00:55:56]  And his boyfriend, which is, again, that's how that's fucking works when you've been through a sexual trauma.
[00:56:02]  Well, when he said that, I immediately thought back to instances in my own life when I've been in situations, you know, like only a couple times, but with women who, you know, have had some sort of trauma.
[00:56:14]  And that is usually really like, that's when it, a lot of the times when it first gets brought up, right?
[00:56:19]  Because that's the time like you kind of can't shunt it aside or like you're like, I have to mention this.
[00:56:23]  Yeah, you have to disclose these things.
[00:56:25]  Exactly.
[00:56:25]  Or like explain why maybe you feel uncomfortable.
[00:56:28]  That's why.
[00:56:28]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:56:29]  Like, I'm not, I don't feel comfortable doing this because, and then, you know, you explain.
[00:56:32]  And even him saying, like, she explained a little at first, and then she explained more another time, you know, and it was clear how he really cared about her.
[00:56:40]  Yes.
[00:56:40]  Like that was, it actually made me tear up a little bit.

=== Trial Coverage Update (09:32) ===

[00:56:44]  Oh, yeah.
[00:56:45]  And it all, that it all tracked.
[00:56:46]  It all sounded so human and real.
[00:56:48]  Like, that is how this, this happens.
[00:56:51]  Like, you, I, I don't know.
[00:56:52]  It just felt like the best corroboration that they could have, they could have had.
[00:56:59]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:57:00]  And, you know, and also I found out, you know, they started dating in junior year of high school and they were 17.
[00:57:05]  So in, I think, what was it, 1996?
[00:57:08]  1996, yeah.
[00:57:09]  And then they dated.
[00:57:10]  I was sort of surprised to hear that they did it up and on and off, as he said, until 2000, the end of 2003.
[00:57:16]  And then we found out later during Sternheim's rather brief cross-examination of this guy that actually keep into contact talk once a month.
[00:57:25]  And she actually recently came to his wedding.
[00:57:28]  Yeah.
[00:57:29]  He was really great.
[00:57:32]  I'm glad they're still friends.
[00:57:33]  Yeah, me too.
[00:57:34]  That's that's a good, yeah, that's, that's good.
[00:57:36]  That made me feel hopeful about love for every all the people in the world.
[00:57:42]  But after that, I was, I thought he was going to be the last witness.
[00:57:47]  That's sort of what, I don't know, just kind of the scuttlebutt around.
[00:57:50]  It was like, that was kind of the only known other witness was like, maybe going to be your ex-boyfriend.
[00:57:54]  Well, no, I called it.
[00:57:55]  Yes.
[00:57:56]  Yeah, but I'd heard a couple, maybe I probably got it from you.
[00:57:59]  No, you got it from me.
[00:58:00]  I told you.
[00:58:01]  I was like, oh, definitely they're going to call the ex-boyfriend.
[00:58:03]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:58:04]  No, but no, but I'd heard there would be one other witness, maybe from, but you, Liz did, Liz, Liz, Liz was the one who said ex-boyfriend.
[00:58:13]  They called her mom to the stand.
[00:58:14]  Yeah, we mentioned that, yeah, and that was really nice.
[00:58:17]  Yeah.
[00:58:17]  And same sort of deal, like all down the line corroboration.
[00:58:20]  Yeah.
[00:58:21]  So it was like a really solid day for the prosecution.
[00:58:24]  And then they, boom, the prosecution rests.
[00:58:28]  Yes.
[00:58:28]  And so, you know, we've been talking about this kind of since we found out about it.
[00:58:33]  And every time it's described in court, it does seem like the judge is like, well, they shaved some witness.
[00:58:41]  Like, it's like they're resting maybe slightly before they were originally going to.
[00:58:46]  Yes.
[00:58:47]  But the prosecution, there was already going to, like we said, Monday through Wednesday next week, the court is in recess because Allison Nathan has like some something to do.
[00:58:55]  Yes.
[00:58:55]  Probably has to do with Chuck Schumer and her getting promoted.
[00:58:59]  Yeah.
[00:58:59]  So court resumes next Thursday and Friday.
[00:59:02]  The defense is presenting its case.
[00:59:04]  Now, it said today that it anticipates the 16th, the 17th, and into the 20th.
[00:59:11]  Yeah.
[00:59:12]  Which means two days and some change for the defense case, which I was like, me too.
[00:59:21]  I was, I was four weeks.
[00:59:23]  They said, all right, so there has been a lot of confusion throughout how long this case was supposed to take.
[00:59:32]  Originally, and I can, I have the documents to prove it.
[00:59:36]  Originally, it was decided that this was probably going to be between both the prosecution and defense, kind of like, you know, talked about a six-week case.
[00:59:45]  That is not the case, especially.
[00:59:47]  That's what they told the jury.
[00:59:48]  That's what they told the jury.
[00:59:50]  Up to six weeks.
[00:59:50]  But that, you know, that's a while.
[00:59:53]  However, think riddle.
[00:59:55]  Don't even riddle me there.
[00:59:56]  There's no riddle here.
[00:59:57]  There's a riddle here, but I'm not asking you.
[00:59:59]  The actual, like, the rest of the case is, all right, so there's two days of trial next week and then three days the next week.
[01:00:08]  And then if it goes into the week after that, only three days.
[01:00:11]  So there's only eight more days left of trial this month.
[01:00:14]  Yeah.
[01:00:15]  So I'm just looking at the calendar.
[01:00:17]  Okay.
[01:00:17]  So this is what Bobby said.
[01:00:19]  Bobby was like, she was like, you know, Alice and Nathan was like, how long do you anticipate?
[01:00:25]  She's trying, they're trying to figure out when to do the charging conference.
[01:00:27]  Yeah.
[01:00:28]  Which is when they actually like file the charges.
[01:00:30]  They're, you know, they're all agreed upon for the formal things that goes to the jury that what the jury has to line by line decide on.
[01:00:38]  And that needs to get done before the defense rests.
[01:00:41]  Yes.
[01:00:42]  Okay.
[01:00:42]  So Bobby was like 16th and 17th and into the 20th.
[01:00:47]  And so Alice and Nathan goes, so closing arguments on the 21st.
[01:00:53]  And Bobby's like, well, we know that the prosecution wants to present a rebuttal.
[01:01:01]  And then the prosecution very quickly is like, well, it's only one witness we're anticipating.
[01:01:07]  So we could probably definitely do the 21st.
[01:01:09]  Yeah, I've seen this submission about another expert witness.
[01:01:12]  And so I actually haven't really even had time to look at it, but I'll be looking into that guy.
[01:01:18]  But yeah, so I think that's really the only like, I mean, that seems to track.
[01:01:23]  Yeah, so here's the thing.
[01:01:25]  The prosecution wants to wrap this up before Christmas because you want, if you're the prosecution, you want the jury to feel some pressure to come to a verdict so they don't have to come back after the fucking holiday because no one wants to do that.
[01:01:40]  Yeah.
[01:01:41]  And so, and Bobby rightly is like, wants to extend so that the jury doesn't feel pressure to wrap up and convict really quickly or come to an agreement really quickly because remember it has to be unanimous.
[01:01:54]  Yeah.
[01:01:56]  And the holiday puts, you know, an added pressure on that.
[01:01:59]  Yeah.
[01:01:59]  And so it's in the defense's best interest to extend their case.
[01:02:05]  The thing is, they might not have anything.
[01:02:08]  Yeah, now they are, they do seem to be a little worried about witnesses flying and stuff.
[01:02:13]  They were hemming and I would think they were just on is what I'm saying.
[01:02:17]  But yeah, they were just like trying to make, yeah, I'm saying H and H, hem and haw.
[01:02:23]  They are also now asking for anonymity for some of their witnesses.
[01:02:27]  Which is very funny.
[01:02:28]  And the judge was like, what?
[01:02:31]  Yeah.
[01:02:32]  The judge was basically like, why didn't you ask for this before?
[01:02:36]  This is like too late now.
[01:02:37]  I am calling it now.
[01:02:39]  No anonymity for the witnesses.
[01:02:40]  So there's some of this bullshit because there's been a lot of stuff that's been added on her seal.
[01:02:44]  Let me see the docs.
[01:02:46]  Yeah.
[01:02:46]  You know what I mean?
[01:02:47]  Let me see the documents.
[01:02:48]  So no more anonymity for the victims.
[01:02:51]  Yes.
[01:02:51]  No anonymity for these whoever's whoever's coming up here for the defense.
[01:02:55]  I'm going to say this.
[01:02:56]  If we've got closing arguments on the 21st, if we actually get closing arguments on the 21st, we are going to get a verdict on the 22nd.
[01:03:03]  100%.
[01:03:04]  There's absolutely no way a jury is like, no, let's come back Monday.
[01:03:10]  Yeah.
[01:03:10]  I just don't fucking believe it.
[01:03:12]  Yeah.
[01:03:13]  And I think if that is the case, it'll be guilty.
[01:03:17]  So the other thing too is that would be really funny.
[01:03:21]  And maybe that's not the right word to use.
[01:03:23]  Keep in mind that Ghelane, who, by the way, matrilineally not Jewish, but Protestant.
[01:03:30]  No, you haven't mentioned that before.
[01:03:32]  Yeah.
[01:03:32]  Crazy stuff, I found out.
[01:03:34]  Birthday, Christmas.
[01:03:37]  What?
[01:03:38]  60th.
[01:03:39]  It's her 60th?
[01:03:40]  Yeah.
[01:03:40]  She doesn't look a day over 75.
[01:03:43]  Big six.
[01:03:43]  So imagine what a birthday present that would be.
[01:03:46]  Exactly.
[01:03:47]  I mean, here's the thing.
[01:03:48]  Even if she gets off, which, by the way, we do not think that she is going to win this case.
[01:03:52]  I think they're going to get her on something.
[01:03:53]  They're going to get her on something.
[01:03:54]  I mean, there's a maximum.
[01:03:55]  If she gets convicted on all of them, she faces up to 70 years.
[01:03:59]  And I got to say, six years old, adrenochrome supply cut off.
[01:04:03]  She doesn't have her sleep mask.
[01:04:04]  Yeah.
[01:04:05]  And we're also sending Liz into women's prison.
[01:04:07]  Okay.
[01:04:08]  You know, she doesn't got much time.
[01:04:11]  But she's also got two perjury charges she's facing.
[01:04:14]  Right, right, right.
[01:04:16]  So we will see on that.
[01:04:18]  I mean, yeah, I have a feeling that you are correct.
[01:04:21]  But who knows if the defense is like, oh, we found all this other stuff to talk about.
[01:04:26]  We can't do closing arguments until the 22nd.
[01:04:33]  She's like, actually, we have a director's cut of the Frazzledrip video with commentary from Huma.
[01:04:40]  Yeah, I don't.
[01:04:41]  I would rock if this finished before Christmas.
[01:04:44]  Why?
[01:04:45]  Sorry, what is Christmas for?
[01:04:47]  It's for me.
[01:04:48]  I love Christmas.
[01:04:49]  You know that.
[01:04:50]  Yeah.
[01:04:50]  You should be a little sensitive to me.
[01:04:53]  Sensitive to you?
[01:04:55]  Yes.
[01:04:56]  For eight crazy nights, I've been, I was in this trial.
[01:05:01]  You think that I also, well, listen, I don't want to, I don't want to get into this.
[01:05:09]  So.
[01:05:10]  It's Friday.
[01:05:11]  Let's go.
[01:05:11]  It's Friday.
[01:05:12]  Okay.
[01:05:13]  We will.
[01:05:15]  We will be back.
[01:05:16]  We'll be back on Thursday.
[01:05:17]  We'll be back on.
[01:05:18]  Well, we'll be back before then, but no?
[01:05:21]  No, we'll be back with trial coverage on Thursday.
[01:05:23]  We'll be back with trial coverage on Thursday.
[01:05:25]  Yes.
[01:05:25]  And so listen to Liz say that.
[01:05:28]  And also me.
[01:05:29]  We will be back for trial coverage on Thursday.
[01:05:33]  If you contact me asking for trial coverage while there's no trial, I will log your IP address and call the police and say that you have a hostage there.
[01:05:44]  And to say that you're going to say you don't, but you do.
[01:05:48]  And it's in your belly like from Total Recall.
[01:05:51]  Oh my God.
[01:05:52]  So.
[01:05:52]  Yeah, don't.
[01:05:53]  Yeah.
[01:05:54]  Yeah.
[01:05:54]  Be cool.
[01:05:55]  Don't be uncool.
[01:05:57]  Don't get the little guy from Total Recall in your belly.
[01:05:59]  That would be weird.
[01:06:00]  I'm Liz.
[01:06:01]  My name is Brace.
[01:06:09]  We are, of course, joined by producer Young Chomsky.
[01:06:12]  You've just listened to Trunan, and we will see you next time.