True Anon Truth Feed - 👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 7 👁️
Aired: 2021-12-08
Duration: 55:13


=== Ghelaine Maxwell Trial Update (14:22) ===

[00:00:00]  Ghelaine Maxwell trial day seven.
[00:00:03]  Day seven.
[00:00:04]  I almost said seven seven seven.
[00:00:06]  Like that's a thing.
[00:00:06]  That's not a thing.
[00:00:07]  Yes, it is.
[00:00:07]  It's a Danzig album.
[00:00:09]  So day seven.
[00:00:10]  Danzig takes the stand.
[00:00:32]  Oh my God.
[00:00:33]  Hello, everyone.
[00:00:34]  Hi, ladies and gentlemen.
[00:00:35]  Well, let's, let's, you know what?
[00:00:38]  What?
[00:00:38]  Hello.
[00:00:38]  Say your name.
[00:00:39]  Oh, well, that's what I was about to do.
[00:00:41]  I was leading us in with a let's, and then I was going to say, say our name.
[00:00:44]  You say, let's, I'm Brace.
[00:00:46]  My name is Brace.
[00:00:48]  Probably the worst court reporter of all time if today is going by any.
[00:00:53]  Well, they'll hear.
[00:00:56]  But yeah, my name is just stupid old Brace that nobody likes.
[00:00:59]  Oh my God.
[00:01:00]  Well, I'm Perfect Liz, the best court reporter of all time.
[00:01:04]  We have with us Young Chomsky, who's depending on what side he's in, Young Chomsky, give me a thumbs up if you support Brace.
[00:01:12]  Okay, no thumbs up.
[00:01:13]  So we have Young Chomsky who, oh, he's giving me a middle thumb.
[00:01:16]  You know.
[00:01:18]  Overruled.
[00:01:18]  Overruled.
[00:01:19]  Exactly.
[00:01:20]  Sustained.
[00:01:21]  And we are Truan On, and we are covering the Ghelane Maxwell Ultra trial here in New York, which I thought was such a great city that I've always said such nice things about until today it bit me in the ass.
[00:01:33]  Oh my God.
[00:01:35]  Wait, that's opposite.
[00:01:37]  No, what?
[00:01:38]  You always say terrible things about New York.
[00:01:40]  So today you were proven right.
[00:01:43]  But we're not going to get to that until a little later.
[00:01:47]  I have a little courtroom news that I'd like to report.
[00:01:56]  That's the news sound, right?
[00:01:57]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:01:57]  Okay.
[00:01:57]  Tick or tip.
[00:01:59]  Number one, there is no court.
[00:02:03]  Court is not in session on the 13th, 14th, and 15th because Judge Alison Nathan says that she has prior commitments, which I'm like, she's drying out.
[00:02:17]  Oh my God.
[00:02:18]  I think it has to do with, you know, because she's like up for a big promotion.
[00:02:22]  Ah, yeah, that makes sense.
[00:02:23]  Yeah.
[00:02:23]  Yeah.
[00:02:24]  You can really tell she's like ready to get done with this trial.
[00:02:27]  But that also means that all you little gumshoes out there are not getting podcasts on the 13th, 14th, and 15th.
[00:02:34]  And I don't want to hear a peep from you.
[00:02:36]  No, we've already got, you know how many DMs I got last night at like nine?
[00:02:40]  Because we're doing it.
[00:02:41]  We got a new recording thing.
[00:02:42]  So by the way, please, let's hope this works.
[00:02:45]  This is my first, yeah, this is.
[00:02:47]  Bloodthirsty monster.
[00:02:49]  People were DMing me at like 8.30 being like, where's the episode?
[00:02:52]  Where's the episode?
[00:02:55]  Give me a birth.
[00:02:56]  It's coming.
[00:02:57]  And if it doesn't come, call the police.
[00:03:00]  See if they fucking come.
[00:03:01]  How about this?
[00:03:02]  Chill out.
[00:03:03]  Yes.
[00:03:05]  Do something else.
[00:03:06]  We will not be doing episodes that day of those days.
[00:03:09]  And so don't, I don't want to, I don't want to hear it from any of you.
[00:03:12]  That isn't to say I won't be, and Liz won't be.
[00:03:16]  You know what I say?
[00:03:17]  Make your own episode.
[00:03:18]  Yeah.
[00:03:18]  Yeah.
[00:03:19]  But don't send it to me because I'm not going to listen.
[00:03:21]  Yes.
[00:03:22]  But no, I got some heavy research to do on some people the defense are bringing to the fore.
[00:03:26]  So don't worry.
[00:03:27]  We'll be hard at work.
[00:03:30]  I will say very important courtroom news that we actually, the day started off with Liz.
[00:03:34]  What?
[00:03:36]  Well, prior, like we've told you all, prior to the jury coming in and like the, you know, the gavel getting gaveled, there's always a little bit of conflagration between, there's a conflagration of the, the, you know, the prosecution, the defense, and the judge all kind of like, you know, talk about some of the issues facing the day.
[00:03:55]  People try to get things discussed.
[00:03:56]  The politics, the news, how Biden's doing.
[00:03:58]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:03:59]  Gas prices.
[00:04:01]  Yes, yes, yeah.
[00:04:03]  And today there was a bit of a, well, incredible spat because, as you might recall, minor victim number one was Jane.
[00:04:14]  It appears that her brother was due to take the stand.
[00:04:18]  Brian.
[00:04:19]  Yes.
[00:04:20]  But she had, in fact, called her brother, which is a no-no, and talked to him about, you know, how it went for her.
[00:04:29]  And, well, she had called Ghelain Maxwell's attorney, Laura Menninger, a C word that rhymes with front.
[00:04:40]  And this is verbatim.
[00:04:41]  I thought they said flunt.
[00:04:42]  Liz says front.
[00:04:44]  They said front.
[00:04:45]  Yeah.
[00:04:45]  Because I wrote down front gate.
[00:04:47]  That's classic.
[00:04:49]  And that came up.
[00:04:50]  They had to spell out a few times the fact that Jane called Laura Menninger like a real cunt.
[00:04:58]  Yeah.
[00:04:58]  Which is incredible.
[00:05:01]  It's really funny.
[00:05:02]  Here's the thing though.
[00:05:03]  Menninger, by the way, there.
[00:05:04]  Loose lips sink ships.
[00:05:07]  And Jane should not have called her brother because her brother was due to testify.
[00:05:11]  And here's the whole thing.
[00:05:13]  It's, you know, Allison Nathan had to rule on whether or not that was an actual violation of basically court order because you can't discuss what you, what you were asked, what you testified about, what they could potentially ask Brian.
[00:05:31]  And it's unclear because no one's privy to those conversations what the actual convo was.
[00:05:39]  And so I will say that Laura Menninger, it is Laura, right?
[00:05:44]  I guess I shouldn't call her Laura.
[00:05:46]  That Miss Menninger really played up the, you know, blushing Victorian aspects of the whole thing.
[00:05:56]  I do declare, I can't believe that she would, you know, and Alice and Nathan really wasn't having it.
[00:06:01]  She was like, okay, okay, we get it.
[00:06:03]  You got to admit, you kind of are.
[00:06:05]  Well, no, it's more like, okay, you're not actually offended.
[00:06:08]  I mean, you are, but you're not really.
[00:06:10]  And this isn't the big deal.
[00:06:11]  The big deal is whether or not actually like substance of what is going to be discussed was discussed.
[00:06:17]  Now, then it was like a whole thing.
[00:06:19]  They didn't actually get to a ruling on whether or not Brian would testify until the end of the day.
[00:06:24]  And they, and the prosecution basically said, you know what?
[00:06:29]  We don't actually need him.
[00:06:30]  Yeah.
[00:06:31]  So Brian shall not be testifying.
[00:06:33]  He will not be.
[00:06:34]  Hopefully it wasn't too big of a trip to New York City.
[00:06:36]  But yeah, the brother is not backing her up.
[00:06:38]  Some other big news, which you were not here for, but this is pretty nuts.
[00:06:44]  Now, we have been discussing whether this trial, how long it's going to go for.
[00:06:50]  And we really have no idea.
[00:06:51]  Also, because in case no one's noticed, this is the first trial we've ever covered.
[00:06:56]  Well, I mean, I've covered the smolet stuff pretty closely, but I guess not for any, just for my personal records.
[00:07:05]  The prosecution let the court know that they plan on resting their case on Thursday.
[00:07:12]  Now, pretty much everyone in the room was like, wait, what?
[00:07:18]  And I think we were all a little bit shocked.
[00:07:20]  Now, today we did go through a lot of evidence and we did hear from the third victim, which we'll get to at the end of the show.
[00:07:28]  But we only have one more victim to hear from, but I assumed we would be hearing from a lot of other witnesses to corroborate.
[00:07:36]  And two days of testimony, pending how long cross-examination goes, just really doesn't seem like a lot of witnesses.
[00:07:44]  Yeah, so this is what confuses me is because there were, I felt like a lot of witnesses for minor victim number one.
[00:07:52]  Yes.
[00:07:53]  You know, like they had her, you know, the finance director for two, basically people who worked at not only our high school, but a summer camp she went to.
[00:08:00]  And there hasn't been nearly that level for the other at all whatsoever, which is confusing to me.
[00:08:07]  Yeah, totally.
[00:08:07]  That's a good point.
[00:08:08]  I think too, like, it seemed today, and we were discussing this, and I also talked to a couple other little gumshoes, real reporters out in the scrum today about this, and they agreed with me, that it seemed as if the prosecution was setting the stage for Sarah Callan to testify.
[00:08:32]  Yes.
[00:08:33]  Which would be quite the blockbuster event.
[00:08:37]  It is my knowledge and understanding, and this was, I, you know, checked this with someone in the courtroom.
[00:08:43]  You almost just said corroborated.
[00:08:44]  I did.
[00:08:45]  We've become lawyers.
[00:08:46]  That's great.
[00:08:46]  Although I got a lot to say about lawyers today.
[00:08:48]  Dude, I'm literally, you know, I am a lawyer, right?
[00:08:51]  Well, I got nothing good to say.
[00:08:54]  It is my understanding that she, Sarah Kellen, is working with the government.
[00:09:01]  That is what her lawyer has said.
[00:09:02]  Now, whether that means a plea agreement for testimony or there's a whole nother case that's going to be announced, I have no idea.
[00:09:12]  But the witness today, the victim, was asked multiple times about Sarah Kellen.
[00:09:20]  A whole bunch, yes.
[00:09:21]  Yeah.
[00:09:22]  And they have talked about Sarah Kellen in other, like other witnesses have testified to like her presence and her role in the house and with Epstein, but also with, you know, her role in the abuse of the women or of the girls.
[00:09:40]  And so it seems as if they are setting the, what I understand to be called foundation to call Sarah Kellen to the stand to testify against Ghillain.
[00:09:50]  So who is Sarah Kellen?
[00:09:52]  Sarah Kellen, which we've talked about on the show, but not for quite a while.
[00:09:55]  She was part of this sort of, how do you say this?
[00:09:58]  Coterie?
[00:09:58]  C-O-T-E-R.
[00:10:00]  Coterie.
[00:10:00]  A coterie.
[00:10:01]  She was part of this coterie of young women that Epstein had hanging around him that functioned both, although less Sarah from what I understand, but functioned as both like sexual partners for him, but also recruiters for him in a much more direct way, I think, than like they cut right to the chase a lot of the time, as we heard in some of the testimony today.
[00:10:28]  Sarah Kellen is sort of one of the more famous ones because not only was she a high-profile one, as in like she was his arm candy quite a few times, but also she participated in a lot of the abuse of these girls, but she is also married to a NASCAR driver named Brian Vickers.
[00:10:46]  So I think she goes by Sarah Kellen Vickers now.
[00:10:50]  Here's what I am really, really curious to see is from even just the testimony we got today, Sarah Kellen is guilty as Ghelane of just the charges that are being put against Ghelane, right?
[00:11:06]  And then some, yes.
[00:11:07]  And then some.
[00:11:08]  Exactly.
[00:11:08]  Like she is, she is, I mean, a lot of her, her, she's in the picture much later than Ghelane.
[00:11:14]  So there's a lot more digital records, I assume.
[00:11:16]  But like, you know, she performed so many of these same tasks when, as we'll get to Mydo Victim Number Four was talking today, she mentioned that basically Ghelane and Sarah Kellen had many of the same roles.
[00:11:27]  Yeah.
[00:11:28]  And so if she turned states evidence, I like saying that.
[00:11:33]  But if she flipped, I am very curious to see what kind of deal she got and what kind of charges she might be facing too.
[00:11:42]  Whether those charges would have been announced prior to this, I don't know.
[00:11:45]  Like it, it's, it's, I mean, we'll, well, it remains to be seen.
[00:11:48]  But yeah.
[00:11:50]  I will say, just to back up the idea here that they might be calling her, is that they have pulled up photographs of her to have witnesses identify her positively.
[00:12:00]  The only other people they've done that with have been Jeffrey Epstein and Ghelene Maxwell.
[00:12:05]  Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:12:06]  And so she is function, she is factored so heavily into especially the testimony today that I mean, it would be absurd if she wasn't subpoenaed for this.
[00:12:14]  Yeah.
[00:12:15]  You know, I mean, it's for Christ's sake.
[00:12:17]  And again, like, she is a guilty fucking woman.
[00:12:21]  So we'll see what happens with her.
[00:12:24]  So we started the day back in with the you know, nice-looking FBI agent.
[00:12:32]  Special agent.
[00:12:35]  Talking about photographs.
[00:12:36]  Now, we did see some rare Ghelanes.
[00:12:40]  We saw quite a few rare Ghelanes.
[00:12:41]  And in fact, we saw a really intimate picture of Jeffrey Epstein resting his little footsie foo on Ghelane Maxwell's shelf breast on his airplane.
[00:12:52]  In a very like these were photos of Ghelane and Jeffrey that you might recall yesterday we were talking about Kate's testimony that a lot of the time in photographs, Jeffrey would be looking at the camera and Ghelane would be looking at Jeffrey.
[00:13:06]  And boy, did we not see some literal examples of that today?
[00:13:10]  Oh, yeah.
[00:13:10]  Almost every photo except I think the last one.
[00:13:13]  Which was the last one?
[00:13:14]  The last one was definitely the last in the chronology.
[00:13:18]  Like going by the outfits and the haircuts, you can kind of date them.
[00:13:21]  Yes.
[00:13:22]  I'm going to say, this sounds horrible.
[00:13:24]  They had the quality of a like Fitzbow tumbler.
[00:13:29]  Yeah.
[00:13:29]  Oh, they definitely were.
[00:13:30]  There was one of him in like a red apré ski kind of outfit.
[00:13:36]  Stop talking in French.
[00:13:38]  It means after ski.
[00:13:40]  Oh, they have after it was like a red ski suit.
[00:13:43]  They were like an aspen or something.
[00:13:46]  And it had a very like, I don't know, you could see it on some assholes fucking mood board or whatever.
[00:13:54]  Some like 16-year-old gay guy that loves Lana Del Rey.
[00:13:59]  It's like, yeah.
[00:14:01]  This fits fire.
[00:14:03]  The one I wrote that was the one that he was looking at her.
[00:14:08]  It was the one where she had short hair.
[00:14:10]  Yes.
[00:14:10]  And it was like, okay, this one's later.
[00:14:12]  It's clearly the late 90s, early 2000s.
[00:14:14]  And I wrote, given his tiny sunglasses, he had kind of a little like China Chalet look going on.
[00:14:20]  Yeah.
[00:14:20]  You know.

=== Strange Emails Back and Forth (05:51) ===

[00:14:22]  But yeah, there were quite a few photographs.
[00:14:24]  And so it looks like that's all the photos we're getting off of those binders.
[00:14:27]  Okay.
[00:14:28]  Just photos of Jeffrey and Ghelane.
[00:14:30]  They submitted a photo of Virginia Roberts, but it was submitted under seal.
[00:14:33]  And so we have not seen it.
[00:14:35]  Now, there was a kind of bizarre back and forth where they were trying to pin down and get the FBI agent to say basically how many photos there were.
[00:14:47]  Yes.
[00:14:47]  This was like a confusing back and forth.
[00:14:49]  Because we heard a lot of numbers tossed out there.
[00:14:51]  Yeah, a lot of numbers.
[00:14:53]  The best that I could do after they basically threw three numbers out there and then took one back.
[00:14:58]  You remember?
[00:14:59]  And she said that there were two sets, one of 20,000 and one of 18,000.
[00:15:05]  Yeah.
[00:15:05]  So we're talking about at least a little over 38,000 photos.
[00:15:11]  Which is really something.
[00:15:13]  That's a lot of photos.
[00:15:14]  Yeah.
[00:15:15]  Yeah.
[00:15:15]  And we saw one, two, three, four.
[00:15:20]  We saw four.
[00:15:21]  Yeah.
[00:15:22]  Yeah.
[00:15:23]  And they were, yeah.
[00:15:24]  So no idea what's in there.
[00:15:27]  Well, next they called up Stephen Flatley, who I loved.
[00:15:33]  I'm such a dork.
[00:15:34]  I wrote Michael Flatley's brother.
[00:15:35]  That's not even a good joke.
[00:15:37]  I don't know who that is.
[00:15:38]  The Lord of the Dance.
[00:15:42]  No.
[00:15:43]  Like the kilt man?
[00:15:44]  Yes, the Lord of the Dance.
[00:15:46]  Didn't know that he had a name.
[00:15:47]  Michael Flatley.
[00:15:47]  I thought it was just a title.
[00:15:48]  I thought anyone could be the Lord of the Dance.
[00:15:50]  No.
[00:15:50]  You just had to defeat the prior one.
[00:15:53]  I could be Lord of the Dance.
[00:15:55]  So he is part of the FBI New York Division CART, which came up yesterday in both of the, I believe, FBI special agents testimonies.
[00:16:04]  But so CART is, he collects and processes digital evidence, essentially.
[00:16:08]  Like that is his job.
[00:16:10]  And so like, whereas, so the two successive agents we had dealt like the first one, she didn't really deal with a lot of digital stuff.
[00:16:17]  The second one, she did deal with a lot of digital stuff, but she wasn't like an expert.
[00:16:20]  And this guy is like, hello, I am Mr. Computer.
[00:16:25]  Except he looks like a cartoon FBI agent.
[00:16:28]  Yes, he does.
[00:16:29]  And he had like a voice like, yes, I deal with the computer.
[00:16:32]  I am an FBI agent dealing with computer.
[00:16:34]  So he's been a digital forensic examiner for 16 and a half years, which I thought was a little too precise.
[00:16:40]  Before that, he was a computer consultant and programmer.
[00:16:42]  So this guy is nerd through and through.
[00:16:44]  And boy, did they use his expertise?
[00:16:46]  Because we're talking metadata, data, all that kind of stuff.
[00:16:50]  Well, before we got to that, they literally had to, because as we learned, we have to pretend that the jury is brand new baby, doesn't know anything about literally the world.
[00:17:00]  The turnup truck pulls up to the courthouse day one of the trial and these people fall off.
[00:17:04]  Oh my God.
[00:17:04]  They literally, the prosecution was, what is a computer?
[00:17:08]  Yeah.
[00:17:09]  What is an image?
[00:17:10]  And I was like, come on, man.
[00:17:11]  Yeah.
[00:17:12]  The guy defined.
[00:17:13]  Let the Lord of the Dance keep it moving.
[00:17:15]  So I actually wrote in my notebook here is what is a computer and said, I'm leaving to eat a kind bar.
[00:17:22]  So we start talking about emails and we start talking about documents.
[00:17:30]  And there is a lot of basically these emails and documents were taken from a Windows computer that Ghelane Maxwell owned.
[00:17:41]  Yeah.
[00:17:41]  So, Ghelane, by the way, I want to say a PC girl, which, as I've always maintained, is the pedophile computer.
[00:17:50]  That's not.
[00:17:51]  I mean, it's in here in the court records, so I don't know.
[00:17:53]  It's in here in this room.
[00:17:55]  Legal, illegal thing.
[00:17:57]  I don't know.
[00:17:57]  That's crazy because actually, I'm reading the statistic here that says nine out of ten pedophiles actually used the Mac book.
[00:18:05]  I don't know.
[00:18:06]  That's not in this case.
[00:18:08]  Actually, it was designed for that.
[00:18:09]  It's actually designed for that.
[00:18:10]  The pedophiles in this area.
[00:18:12]  It's so crazy.
[00:18:12]  You must be reading Wikipedia, but I'm actually my notes, actually.
[00:18:16]  Oh, so it's your notes that are subjective?
[00:18:18]  Because that wouldn't actually hold up.
[00:18:19]  I'm pulling the records.
[00:18:20]  No, well, no, because I'm actually looking at FBI.truth and it says what I'm saying.
[00:18:27]  But, anyways, so first of all, we start seeing some emails from Ghelane that are, well, they make Ghelane seem a bit high-strung, frankly.
[00:18:39]  And this seems to be backing up a lot of Juan Alessi's testimony here because their emails to, I believe, Sally Markham, sort of house manager that worked for her.
[00:18:48]  And I struggled to write down.
[00:18:50]  They were the long emails and they were full of complaining.
[00:18:53]  And so I struggled to actually get all of it down.
[00:18:56]  But the first one was like a six-point thing that was like complaining about how I believe Juan Alessi's job, like he was doing a poor job, I think around 2001.
[00:19:05]  That's like there was no drinking water in the black merck, which I believe means Mercedes, no pens in the black Mercedes, the bulb on Jeffrey's desk was burnt out, the pool deck was filthy, I had to pressure wash it.
[00:19:17]  And then thought John said he could change color card in the computer.
[00:19:21]  Not done.
[00:19:23]  Which I was like, I don't know what that means.
[00:19:24]  Are there color cards in computer?
[00:19:26]  Young Chomsky, are there color cards in computers?
[00:19:28]  I don't know.
[00:19:28]  He uses a Mac, so he might.
[00:19:30]  Okay, cool.
[00:19:31]  So it's just, all right.
[00:19:32]  Well, unfortunately, pedophiles use color cards too.
[00:19:36]  So, as we see here.
[00:19:38]  But yeah, so it was, it was clear from these emails that she was like focused on, like, she was going, she was learning lessons from the countess.
[00:19:49]  Yeah, she basically was like, oh my God, Juan, or John, as she refers to him, is doing a really bad job.
[00:19:55]  And this is supposed to show, like, yeah, corroborate that, you know, she ran the house and she was kind of, you know, like cracking the whip on John.
[00:20:04]  It mentions the lists.
[00:20:05]  It mentions the checklist.
[00:20:06]  Like, is he not filling out the binder?
[00:20:08]  Where are we with the manual?
[00:20:10]  Have we, you know, worked on the manual?
[00:20:11]  And so it's kind of a back and forth.

=== Lists and Shampoos (15:29) ===

[00:20:13]  Following that, there is a series of documents that are like offered that are a bunch of lists of products.
[00:20:23]  Yes.
[00:20:24]  This woman is sick.
[00:20:27]  They were a bunch of like a list of like a bunch of shampoos that were like approved to be bought.
[00:20:35]  And then a bunch of, like, I think they were like, it said bath and body products.
[00:20:41]  There's a bunch of massage oils, different new shampoos, yeah.
[00:20:46]  New shampoos.
[00:20:47]  My understanding, this is my guess, is that this is the list of like you take this, you go to the store, because it's like Nexus, Claire All, Revlon, Sassoon, like these are all brands you can get.
[00:20:58]  I'm just in the notes you took down.
[00:20:59]  Yeah, oh, I got more.
[00:21:00]  I also at supermarkets, and she does mention that, like, it's okay to go to Publix.
[00:21:06]  And what was the other one?
[00:21:09]  Uh, it was like Savers or something.
[00:21:11]  Yeah, something like that.
[00:21:12]  No Piggly Wiggly, I noticed.
[00:21:14]  Well, yeah, I don't know if there's Piggyblade.
[00:21:15]  That might just be a Tennessee.
[00:21:16]  I love a deal.
[00:21:17]  I love a Piggly Wiggly.
[00:21:18]  I wouldn't say Rich.
[00:21:20]  But my understanding is it's like, okay, if you go to the store, these are the ones that you can pick from.
[00:21:24]  Yeah.
[00:21:24]  I want to just say, because I was very proud of myself about this.
[00:21:29]  Of course.
[00:21:30]  Now, on the list of skin products, it's kind of like continuing this very 90s, you know, top shelf fee that Ghelane was doing.
[00:21:40]  So you got Kiels, you got Lancome, you got Clarence, Laura Mercier, like all the kind of hits from 1998 to 2003.
[00:21:49]  Estee, of course.
[00:21:50]  Then, what do we see?
[00:21:52]  Sicily Paris.
[00:21:53]  Now, what did I say?
[00:21:55]  I saw it.
[00:21:56]  I knew I saw it.
[00:21:57]  Yes.
[00:21:58]  She had a skin product from me.
[00:22:00]  I knew the brand.
[00:22:01]  Is that a good, fancy one?
[00:22:03]  Oh, it's like insanely fancy.
[00:22:05]  Oh, yeah.
[00:22:05]  They have like, there's this one mask that's very popular by them.
[00:22:08]  I think it's like $85.
[00:22:10]  Whoa.
[00:22:10]  Yeah.
[00:22:11]  Because I've always thought of Sicily as being a talent in Corsica as being Paris.
[00:22:15]  No, S-I-S-L-E-Y, Sicily Paris.
[00:22:18]  Well, there was also a big, clearly like Word document ad that she made that was help wanted.
[00:22:24]  Are you a massage therapist?
[00:22:25]  Work in Palm Beach home.
[00:22:26]  And then the huge letters, excellent pay, mostly weekends and 351-1000.
[00:22:32]  No area code given.
[00:22:33]  And then leave message.
[00:22:35]  So finally, there was a document that I tried to write down in its entirety as much as I could.
[00:22:41]  I'm sure it'll be released on the internet, you know, tonight or tomorrow.
[00:22:45]  But this appears to, I mean, let's be clear.
[00:22:48]  This was on Ghelane's computer in a word, in Word that was owned by Ghelane.
[00:22:56]  I'm not entirely sure it was written by Ghelane.
[00:22:59]  Yes.
[00:23:00]  But.
[00:23:01]  I will bring in the defense's objections to this when you're done.
[00:23:04]  Oh, yeah.
[00:23:04]  Oh, yeah.
[00:23:05]  Yeah.
[00:23:06]  J and G, or Jeffrey and Ghelane, have been together, have been together, a couple, for the last 11 years.
[00:23:14]  They are, contrary to what many people think, rarely apart.
[00:23:18]  I almost always see them together.
[00:23:20]  And it goes on for quite a while.
[00:23:22]  I got some more choice lines.
[00:23:24]  Ghelane is really highly intelligent and great company.
[00:23:27]  A ready with a ready smile and infectious laugh.
[00:23:30]  Jeffrey and Ghelane share many mutual interests and they have a lot of fun together.
[00:23:34]  Jeffrey and Ghelane compliment each other really well.
[00:23:37]  And I cannot imagine one without the other.
[00:23:39]  In addition to being great lovers, they're also the best of friends.
[00:23:43]  Insane.
[00:23:45]  Great lovers.
[00:23:46]  Great lovers.
[00:23:48]  Now, we were talking after this was offered at the little break, and we were saying, oh my gosh, do you remember right when Epstein was arrested, before everything got scrubbed from the internet, there was still a bunch of those websites up.
[00:24:01]  Yeah.
[00:24:02]  And there was like the bios of Epstein, and it was all about the conferences that he was holding on Little St. James with Steven Pinker and all those fucking assholes and whatever.
[00:24:10]  And, you know, it, the way that it spoke, that it, there were all these bios.
[00:24:16]  And the way that it spoke about Jeffrey was in that kind of like undergraduate, like writing a press release.
[00:24:26]  Undergraduate?
[00:24:27]  Baby, this reads like a fucking high schooler talking about their, like, their friends.
[00:24:31]  Webster's dictionary says that Jeffrey and Dillain are the best of, yeah, totally.
[00:24:36]  So it really reads like that, which is, that's the first thing it reminded me of, which made me think that this feels like a press release.
[00:24:44]  Now, you missed this.
[00:24:46]  However, fun little gossip.
[00:24:49]  Vicki Ward was prancing about the halls.
[00:24:53]  She looks like a damn crack.
[00:24:55]  I really think her boots are Jeffrey Campbell, by the way, which is very interesting.
[00:24:58]  Why are you saying by the way after that to me?
[00:25:01]  I would understand that in the slightest.
[00:25:03]  Look, who's Jeffrey Campbell?
[00:25:05]  There are people out there who know exactly what I'm talking about.
[00:25:07]  You have to stop talking to them, though.
[00:25:09]  What does that mean?
[00:25:10]  I like talking to them.
[00:25:12]  Okay, so she's wearing Jeffrey Campbell.
[00:25:14]  I think so, yeah.
[00:25:15]  Anyway, she's got the gait of a meth man.
[00:25:19]  Very, very thin legs, but not in a good way.
[00:25:26]  She is prancing about the courthouse saying, bragging, that letter was sent to me because it was for the Vanity Fair profile that Vicki wrote.
[00:25:39]  Good lord.
[00:25:40]  The Vanity, the very same Vanity Fair profile that had basically any mention of Maria and Annie Farmer excised from it, care of sissy Graydon Carter, whose wife has often been found cavorting with her many lovers at the restaurant that he owns that I can't remember the name of.
[00:25:59]  The Waverly Inn.
[00:26:00]  The Waverly Inn, where his wife cheats on him every night.
[00:26:03]  That very same article.
[00:26:07]  Huh.
[00:26:08]  Maybe I'll go there tonight and have sex with Graydon Carter, his wife.
[00:26:13]  How is that guy not getting?
[00:26:15]  Isn't that crazy that she was just fucking saying?
[00:26:17]  I don't know.
[00:26:18]  Yeah.
[00:26:19]  I don't know.
[00:26:19]  This was reported back to me.
[00:26:21]  I'm just saying.
[00:26:21]  Not a first-hand witness.
[00:26:23]  However, very good source.
[00:26:25]  She almost spoke to me in line today because she thought I was somebody else.
[00:26:28]  She is a confused woman.
[00:26:29]  Yeah.
[00:26:30]  And she's probably hungry.
[00:26:32]  Mm-hmm.
[00:26:32]  I know.
[00:26:32]  I tried to force feed her.
[00:26:34]  I mentioned that I wanted to say something about the defense.
[00:26:37]  Now, you said that it was Ghillain's computer.
[00:26:39]  That is because the user, it was Gmax.
[00:26:43]  That's the name of the user.
[00:26:45]  And that it was registered to Ghelane and all these things.
[00:26:47]  Now, the defense comes in and says, Were there any other users registered to this computer?
[00:26:51]  No, this was the default user.
[00:26:53]  There's this whole thing, you have no idea who's using the computer.
[00:26:55]  Exactly, yeah.
[00:26:56]  They were establishing that it was just called the house computer and that G Max was the default user of the computer, like username of the computer.
[00:27:04]  And so the idea that this is like a hard drive from Ghillain's own personal like laptop she carries everywhere, that this is her thing.
[00:27:12]  No, that wasn't really, or the defense is arguing that that's not exactly the case, that this was more of like a shared, you know, kind of like, remember, I don't know.
[00:27:22]  I feel like when I was a kid, we had like one computer in the room and like everyone.
[00:27:25]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:26]  I remember my brother would always be playing Counter-Strike, and I couldn't, I had 30 minutes of screen time a day, and I couldn't play EverQuests on it.
[00:27:34]  That some sore memories from that.
[00:27:37]  Terrorists win.
[00:27:39]  But there was also, they mentioned evidence tape on the box of hard drives that we talked about yesterday, which had some indication that they had been seized in July of 2007.
[00:27:51]  Now, we do not know.
[00:27:53]  Like, I talked to Julie Brown, who originally reported, you know, Perversion of Justice, that Giant Epstein series that really like kind of kick-started a lot of the reinvestigation into him.
[00:28:04]  Yeah, yeah, the book as well, but I haven't read the book.
[00:28:07]  But, you know, what we knew is that the hard drives were missing from his computers.
[00:28:13]  This is entirely new information, and I'm still trying to get to the bottom of this.
[00:28:18]  Yeah, she tweeted about that and was very, she was very confused and really wants some answers about where the hell this stuff came from, who gave it back to him, and if the FBI ever had it.
[00:28:28]  Yes.
[00:28:28]  Or the Palm Beach Police.
[00:28:30]  Or the FBI.
[00:28:31]  Either one.
[00:28:31]  Oh, speaking of FBI, too, is if your hunch was that an FBI agent should have stayed with the evidence that they did not have the warrant.
[00:28:39]  You said that this morning.
[00:28:40]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:28:42]  We talked.
[00:28:42]  Well, you and I both talked to people about that.
[00:28:44]  And I talked to other people after we had that conversation this morning.
[00:28:48]  Everyone's in agreement.
[00:28:49]  Like, why was there not somebody that was just sitting there?
[00:28:51]  What we're referring to is when, yeah, when they seized, when they first entered the townhouse, like we were talking about yesterday, and their warrant apparently didn't cover taking the items that were in the safe, which included binders of CDs, diamonds.
[00:29:08]  Passports, etc.
[00:29:10]  That rather than having an agent posted up at the scene so that nothing could be moved, which is protocol, that they basically left and then came back with a warrant days later.
[00:29:23]  Five days.
[00:29:24]  Five days later.
[00:29:26]  I'm so incensed I almost burped.
[00:29:31]  At which point, Jeffrey Epstein's lawyer returned all the goods to them in a suitcase because he was in possession.
[00:29:38]  Yeah.
[00:29:40]  So anyway, that is not what should have happened at all.
[00:29:44]  Well, I think what really surprised us is actually next they brought up minor victim four, who's going by Carolyn.
[00:29:51]  And so Carolyn is actually her real name, as far as we understand.
[00:29:56]  There was actually some confusion on the part of the defense about that.
[00:30:00]  But Carolyn is her real name.
[00:30:02]  It's just her first name.
[00:30:03]  And so she's, it's a strange kind of semi-anonymity.
[00:30:07]  They're not being, it seems like, as really forceful, like the same way they were with Jane about some of this.
[00:30:15]  But she is essentially semi-anonymous.
[00:30:18]  So we don't know her last name.
[00:30:21]  Then they're not giving a lot of identifiable stuff about her.
[00:30:25]  They're giving rather less identifiable stuff about her than they would if she was using her full name.
[00:30:31]  But yeah, I was rather surprised that they brought her out again this early.
[00:30:35]  Yeah, everyone in the court kind of thought that Annie was coming next.
[00:30:40]  Yeah.
[00:30:41]  And it looks like they're saving her for last.
[00:30:42]  So we heard from, yes, Carolyn today.
[00:30:45]  Now, before we get into the kind of like specifics of her testimony, I just want to introduce this by saying like the past two victims that we've heard from, Kate and Jane.
[00:31:02]  Jane is an actress.
[00:31:05]  She grew up in Palm Beach, but you know, there was, you know, there seems to be a lot of quibbles about how she grew up, but it was decently wealthy or, you know, maybe upper middle class.
[00:31:17]  There's discussions about, you know, whether or not she lived near a country club, but it was a gated community, things like that.
[00:31:24]  I think her stepfather had some money.
[00:31:27]  Right.
[00:31:27]  I was looking into it.
[00:31:29]  And Kate, you know, of course, she grew up in Belgravia, which is a very, very posh neighborhood in London.
[00:31:36]  It's the same neighborhood that Ghillane had her townhouse in.
[00:31:39]  Exactly.
[00:31:40]  She's very upper crust and comes from a wealthy, wealthy family.
[00:31:44]  Yes.
[00:31:44]  I mean, jet-setting to Paris before she was, you know, before she was 18, like, you know, very, a very different world that we were seeing, like that we've seen there.
[00:31:57]  And it's the kind of classic, I mean, you know, it is that kind of like jet-setting, you know, gorgeous girls.
[00:32:03]  Like it kind of feeds into maybe some of the caricatures of Epstein.
[00:32:07]  Exactly.
[00:32:07]  Both very beautiful women.
[00:32:08]  Like very put together.
[00:32:12]  This was a whole new world.
[00:32:15]  Yeah.
[00:32:16]  This was a lot more sort of what originally, I think in Julie Brown's articles, this girl resembles a lot more the girls that we read about there.
[00:32:27]  Yeah, I mean, I want to like be really like, yeah, I mean, look, this was West Palm Beach.
[00:32:36]  There's a lot of alcohol use, a lot of drug abuse.
[00:32:40]  There is charges of like, you know, child molestation when she was a kid, of sexual abuse by her grandfather when she was four years old.
[00:32:50]  There is, you know, she has run-ins with the law.
[00:32:53]  Like she, I mean, just physically, you know, I think is fine to say, like, she doesn't, she's missing teeth.
[00:32:59]  Yeah, I mean, well, when she, I mean, when she came up to the stand, listen, I have, you know, for maybe those who are tuning in new into the show newly, I spent a lot of time around people who've done a lot of drugs.
[00:33:09]  And I myself was a drug addict reprobate for many years, like not the like cool kind.
[00:33:17]  And so, you know, there's a certain like way that you talk and a cadence and like literally a tone of voice that you get when you, you know, you do enough dope.
[00:33:27]  And she had it.
[00:33:28]  So immediately when she came to the stand, I was like, okay, yes, I can see this.
[00:33:31]  We also knew that from some of what I believe the defense had leaked is that they were going to try to smear her as a doper.
[00:33:39]  And so, you know, she gets up there and she starts talking about, you know, this is very, immediately very different than what we've heard.
[00:33:46]  You know, she says she last, the last grade she finished was seventh grade.
[00:33:50]  Yeah, she is a middle school dropout, which is like, I mean, you know, you hear about high school dropouts hearing that someone dropped out of middle school, I mean dropped out at seventh and seventh grade and, you know, basically was introduced to Epstein when she was 14 years old.
[00:34:06]  Yeah, yeah, that's what, and that's, you know, they ask her, she's upfront about her drug abuse or her past drug abuse immediately.
[00:34:13]  They ask her that in the first few questions.
[00:34:15]  It says, have you used drugs?
[00:34:16]  Have you been addicted?
[00:34:17]  And she says, addicted to pain pills and cocaine.
[00:34:20]  I want to really quick, when she says pain pills, I think it's very clear that what she's talking about is OxyContin.
[00:34:26]  Oh, yeah.
[00:34:27]  And I think that there's an important aspect here where, like I said before, we're talking about models and actresses.
[00:34:35]  And this isn't to diminish their stories like at all whatsoever.
[00:34:39]  Yeah.
[00:34:39]  But that an important aspect of this, I mean, the opioid epidemic, which we've done episodes about on this podcast, is a very big, vast story in like the last, you know, 10, 15 years.
[00:34:56]  And so for it to enter this story makes a lot of sense.
[00:34:59]  Yeah.
[00:35:00]  In a really horrible, I mean, we're in Florida, right?
[00:35:02]  This is in the belly of the beast.
[00:35:04]  And these two stories kind of intersecting, I guess, is a lot to take in.
[00:35:12]  Yeah.
[00:35:12]  I mean, listen, this lady's only like a, you know, she's, she's a, she's older than me, right?
[00:35:17]  But like, it's, it's, I got into these same exact drugs.
[00:35:21]  You know what I mean?
[00:35:22]  Knew people who fucking mostly guys that did this, but like got with older guys for money to buy dope, you know.
[00:35:30]  And it's like, this is, I mean, this is the kind of person that I've spent a lot more time around than anybody like Jane or Kate.
[00:35:37]  You know, again, not to diminish them or anything, but like, no, this was like, no, we've both spoken about how powerful their testimony was.

=== Why She Went There (09:49) ===

[00:35:43]  Yeah.
[00:35:43]  To me, I mean, this, this, her, Carolyn's testimony really, really affected me, you know, for a variety of reasons.
[00:35:51]  But she talks about how, you know, they asked her like when you were between 14 and 16, how did you make money?
[00:35:57]  She said, I went to Jeffrey Epstein's house.
[00:35:58]  And I really noticed how, you know, when she was talking, the way that especially Kate talked about Ghelane as her, like, this glamorous person she sort of sort of looked up to in a way.
[00:36:11]  I wanted to be her.
[00:36:12]  I wanted to be her.
[00:36:13]  I wanted her to like me.
[00:36:14]  There was this.
[00:36:15]  Exactly.
[00:36:16]  For Carolyn, it was like, she was the lady that told me to go there and would call me.
[00:36:21]  Like, there was none of that sort of like looking up to her, anything like that.
[00:36:25]  No, and in fact, she didn't even call her Ghelane because she said, I can't, I could never pronounce her name.
[00:36:29]  So I called her Maxwell.
[00:36:31]  Exactly.
[00:36:32]  Yeah.
[00:36:32]  And, you know, it was this, her story is pretty entwined with Virginia Roberts, who came up a lot.
[00:36:40]  I mean, she was introduced to Epstein and Ghelane via Virginia Roberts, who at the time, Virginia Roberts was living with her boyfriend.
[00:36:48]  Her boyfriend and Virginia were friends with the, I think, 18-year-old, 17-year-old, this guy named Sean that Carolyn was dating.
[00:36:58]  And when she was 14, or she started dating when he was 13, or she was 13.
[00:37:03]  And she is asked by Virginia, you know, do you want to make some money?
[00:37:07]  You know, we can go over here.
[00:37:09]  And it's that sort of classic recruitment tale that really like was a lot of people's introduction to Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:37:17]  And essentially, like, this is this is the story that I think if people know about the Epstein stuff, this is the story that they know.
[00:37:25]  You know, a poor girl from Palm Beach, whose mother is basically an alcoholic and absent from her life, is taken by another young girl over to Jeffrey Epstein's house.
[00:37:37]  Where at first, the first massage she gives him, Virginia Jeffrey has sex with Jeffrey Epstein in front of her.
[00:37:43]  She doesn't touch him.
[00:37:44]  The next time she goes over to the house alone, and then she says probably hundreds or a hundred times she goes over there over the next few years.
[00:37:54]  And she's paid money to have sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:37:59]  You know, she's pretty clear that she only didn't, it was mostly him touching himself.
[00:38:08]  You know, she was pretty clear on that, where he tried to do other stuff sometimes, but she was able to dodge it.
[00:38:15]  Although he did involve her with Group sex with older women and including Nadia Marchinko.
[00:38:24]  And, you know, it was pretty like, it was really, to me, this testimony, because it came from somebody who spoke kind of like how most people speak, I think, rather than like somebody who was really highly educated.
[00:38:40]  I think it was really so compelling because it was so black and white, right?
[00:38:45]  Like, this is what happened.
[00:38:46]  He did this.
[00:38:47]  It was, you know, they paid me $300 every time.
[00:38:49]  I went back there.
[00:38:50]  I spent the money on drugs.
[00:38:52]  Yeah.
[00:38:53]  Yeah.
[00:38:54]  I think, you know, it's interesting.
[00:38:55]  I think that sometimes when I don't know, just talking to some other people in the room about it and trying to gauge like their responses.
[00:39:06]  I think sometimes people get caught up maybe a little too much because I keep trying to put my mind, like trying to put myself in the mind of the jury.
[00:39:12]  Absolutely.
[00:39:13]  And sometimes like people get caught up too much in the games and the like the legal games.
[00:39:20]  And they think, oh, that was a clever point or, oh, that was a thing.
[00:39:22]  Like there's some sort of like, I don't know, they're watching like a football match or something.
[00:39:27]  You know what I mean?
[00:39:27]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:28]  And it's like, I don't know if any of that really, like for just like normal people, watching a normal, like just, it's really, it was really sympathetic and really, really, every girl has been really effective, I believe.
[00:39:43]  Well, so I think with this, especially, this was really, I think this, her testimony was really effective in affecting too, is because I think because of the prevalence of dope and opiates and fucking in meth too,
[00:39:56]  think that a lot of people know somebody who has be either been in a situation like this where they have this sort of absent mother who's like all fucked up and like the kid kind of runs wild and gets in a lot of trouble or they've known somebody who themselves has been like a like a you know a drug addict and had to either do some things that were very you know uh degrading to themselves to get money or whatever like i mean that's the thing is like i know i've known so many people like this and i've met especially
[00:40:26]  like you know, since i've been when I worked in the fucking Nut House and rehabs and stuff met so many people like this too, like it's, you know I I, I was a bad kid when I was 14, you know like I got when I was a runaway and stuff, and that's when a guy you know tried to do that my own personal story with that And like, that's why I was like, that's this lady is like, I don't know, it seemed like someone you would know.
[00:40:49]  And so I, I mean, I thought, you know, and she was, she was upfront about it too.
[00:40:52]  You know, they asked her, like, you know, she had a fucking kid when she was 16.
[00:40:57]  And eventually Jeffrey Epstein stopped being interested in her when she was around 18.
[00:41:02]  Or she was, he was definitely by the time she was 18, uninterested.
[00:41:05]  And it's like, do you have any younger friends?
[00:41:06]  Do you have any younger friends?
[00:41:07]  That was very, she said, why they asked her like why she stopped.
[00:41:11]  And she said, it became clear I was too old for him.
[00:41:14]  And they asked her why she went back and she was like, I needed money for the kid.
[00:41:17]  Yeah.
[00:41:18]  You know, and it's like, I mean, Jesus, yeah, Jesus fucking Christ.
[00:41:23]  And especially knowing Epstein's views on drug addicts, too, like you can imagine the contempt that he held her in.
[00:41:30]  And Ghelaine, too.
[00:41:31]  Just that, you know, they thought this girl was trash.
[00:41:34]  And then just fucking threw her away.
[00:41:35]  Yeah.
[00:41:36]  Yeah.
[00:41:37]  At this point, this is when the prosecution brings up Sarah Kellen.
[00:41:40]  And this was an interesting, this is why I think that they might call her: is that they ask her if they asked Carolyn if she was ever photographed.
[00:41:48]  And they said, she said, yes.
[00:41:49]  Sarah Kellen photographed me at Jeffrey Epstein's house.
[00:41:52]  She called me and asked me if she could photograph me.
[00:41:55]  She would give me five to six hundred dollars to take nude photographs of me.
[00:41:59]  And she agreed for the money.
[00:42:01]  Now, this is the first time that we're hearing about the production of child pornography.
[00:42:07]  Yes, yeah.
[00:42:08]  It has been teased because, again, we don't know what the jury has seen in the sealed photographs.
[00:42:14]  Yes, correct.
[00:42:15]  That were seized from Epstein's Palm Beach estate.
[00:42:20]  And I believe the New York one, but primarily focusing on the photographs found in Palm Beach.
[00:42:26]  So it seems that they were laying the foundation for this.
[00:42:30]  Now, that charge of child pornography is not in the indictment anywhere for Ghelane.
[00:42:36]  And so it's, I found it like that just said, that really stuck out to me that this was suddenly like a new thing because it's a very serious, there's no really gray area about photographing and producing child pornography.
[00:42:49]  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:42:50]  And the thing with this too is that, I mean, a lot's been said about how the girls were sort of instructed to tell Epstein they were 17 or 18, but she's very upfront about that.
[00:43:00]  She's like, no, Jeffrey told me to travel with her, with him, but I told him I was too young.
[00:43:05]  I was 14 years old and my mom's not going to let me.
[00:43:08]  Yeah.
[00:43:09]  And, you know, that was sort of that.
[00:43:11]  You know, it's like, she's like, no, I told him I was a child.
[00:43:13]  Yeah.
[00:43:14]  She said that Virginia would drive her because she couldn't drive herself.
[00:43:17]  She didn't have a license.
[00:43:18]  She said at one point that her mother drove her to Jeffrey Epstein's house.
[00:43:21]  Mentioned too, lingerie that got sent to her.
[00:43:24]  I think a couple of other things too.
[00:43:27]  Oh, yeah, massage for dummies and incubus concert tickets.
[00:43:30]  Yeah.
[00:43:31]  She also, I mean, very tearfully, it was tough testimony.
[00:43:36]  She kind of broke down a couple times, on cross-examination, which we'll get to.
[00:43:40]  But she did kind of tearfully say and very regretfully that she introduced and brought friends to Jeffree Epstein.
[00:43:48]  Two to three different friends.
[00:43:50]  She mentions three.
[00:43:53]  You know, they're all about 15, 16 that she introduces to Jeffrey.
[00:43:57]  And she said she did it because she got paid more.
[00:43:59]  She would be paid $600 while her friend was paid $300.
[00:44:03]  Yeah.
[00:44:04]  And yeah, I mean, I do think that again, like the money aspect really was not, that was not the emphasis, even with Jane.
[00:44:19]  She was given money, but it was more of a like gift, it felt like, as opposed to a transaction.
[00:44:23]  Yeah.
[00:44:24]  This was presented as like, no, I needed money.
[00:44:27]  And Jeffrey gave me money.
[00:44:28]  Yes.
[00:44:29]  And Gillan gave me money.
[00:44:30]  You know, and you can tell, like, this is like, that's why she went over there, right?
[00:44:33]  Like, she wasn't like, these people are so cool and like sophisticated.
[00:44:36]  She's like, I need $300 because I don't have any money.
[00:44:39]  Yes.
[00:44:40]  And they knew that too.
[00:44:42]  They asked her if she'd ever been arrested as well.
[00:44:47]  And she mentioned that she had been arrested in 2011 for cocaine possession.
[00:44:53]  And she said, which I found very charming.
[00:44:55]  Also, I know many, I understand this too.
[00:44:58]  She said she handed the officer the drugs.
[00:45:01]  And I think during a traffic stop, and they asked her why she did that.
[00:45:04]  And she says, because I was stupid and kind of laughed.
[00:45:07]  And like, listen, I've been arrested for felony, drug, meth, possession.
[00:45:10]  And it is a fucking, it's a scary thing.
[00:45:13]  And she got arrested a couple of years after that too for trying to sell stolen property, which turned out to be an Xbox.
[00:45:21]  Yeah, she pawned an Xbox that she was told was by her baby daddy.
[00:45:26]  Was told that was that was not stolen.
[00:45:30]  And she had two felony charges from that.

=== Deposition Games (08:45) ===

[00:45:32]  Yeah.
[00:45:33]  She spent 52 days in jail and then went straight into a drug treatment facility.
[00:45:37]  Yeah.
[00:45:38]  And, you know, they asked her to list what drugs she's on now.
[00:45:41]  From memory, I think she said methadone, doxapin, Xanax, and Vivance.
[00:45:48]  Did I get those right?
[00:45:49]  Yep.
[00:45:49]  I got those right because I have been prescribed several of those drugs.
[00:45:53]  And not methadone, but I have taken methadone many times.
[00:45:58]  For those who don't know, methadone is something that they give you kind of like Suboxone to, you know, it's basically to keep you off of dope.
[00:46:05]  But doxipino is actually prescribed for sleep, but I guess it's a bipolar schizophrenic medication.
[00:46:11]  She said she's on it for that.
[00:46:14]  And that became clear that they're going to try to use that to the, like, I know I, as you know, I missed the cross, but you know, to say that those affect her memory.
[00:46:23]  She did say that she has schizophrenia and hears voices that tell her that her children are going to be taken, which is really heartbreaking to hear.
[00:46:33]  But overall, even when she was talking about that, she's like, no, I know their voices.
[00:46:36]  Like, my children aren't going to be taken.
[00:46:37]  They're safe with me.
[00:46:40]  But yeah, it was just, it was really heartbreaking to hear.
[00:46:45]  So around this time, I had to go back to where I'm staying to get something.
[00:46:53]  And it turns out that a pipe had burst in the ceiling and there was water.
[00:46:59]  coming through the ceiling and that was a big emergency.
[00:47:03]  So I was MIA for the rest of the day because I was swabbing the fucking decks and being like, what do I do?
[00:47:11]  Because, yeah, it's in my apartment or nothing.
[00:47:14]  What's the name?
[00:47:15]  President Chaos?
[00:47:16]  Well, President Chaos is the one who bursts the pipes, but yeah, yes.
[00:47:19]  Yeah, classic, classic little beta.
[00:47:21]  Yeah, it was not fun.
[00:47:24]  But I was there, dear listeners, scribbling away.
[00:47:27]  And our favorite lawyer, Pagliacci, got up there to cross-examine.
[00:47:32]  Now, this cross-examination, when did you leave, Fras?
[00:47:37]  1245.
[00:47:38]  Okay, it didn't end until five minutes to five.
[00:47:42]  Yeah.
[00:47:43]  Which is insane.
[00:47:45]  And it's not because there were a billion questions.
[00:47:49]  It's because my man is so fucking slow.
[00:47:53]  Well, I did see the very beginning of his cross.
[00:47:56]  And once again, he immediately blurted out a name that he should not have read.
[00:48:05]  Yeah, he meant, well, not just once.
[00:48:07]  He actually said the victim's last name thrice.
[00:48:11]  Yes.
[00:48:12]  Thrice.
[00:48:13]  Thrice.
[00:48:14]  And upon the third mention was there was like, they were scurried off into a, you know, little sidebar where I don't know if an official admonishment happened, but.
[00:48:25]  We heard about the official admonishment the first time he did it, but now he's done it four times to two different victims.
[00:48:31]  And so no longer thinking this is an accident.
[00:48:34]  Yeah.
[00:48:34]  And the, well, no, I do think it was an accident.
[00:48:36]  And I'll tell you why.
[00:48:37]  I think that what he was doing is, so basically he was pulling up a deposition that she gave.
[00:48:43]  She's filed two civil suits.
[00:48:46]  So it was a deposition in conjunction with a civil suit that she filed against Epstein and Sarah Kellen.
[00:48:53]  So he was reading from that testimony, which had, which was not appropriately, like her name wasn't appropriately rejected.
[00:49:01]  Yes.
[00:49:02]  So he mentioned her last name.
[00:49:04]  The thing is, is that like at this point, he's just going through all of these statements to say like, okay, you said this and these dates don't match up with what you said today.
[00:49:12]  And it's blah, And, you know, there's a lot.
[00:49:17]  There are a lot.
[00:49:18]  And there are a lot of a lot of the testimony that she gave in the deposition did not match the testimony that she gave today in terms of dates, ages, certain details.
[00:49:32]  This is something that we've seen before.
[00:49:33]  And if anyone has ever followed any case having to do with sexual abuse that where there's like a huge gap in years, like this, you always see this.
[00:49:43]  Okay.
[00:49:45]  At certain point, though, and this is the thing that started to really bother me, because again, we don't need to go through the details of the back and forth or everything.
[00:49:54]  It's just like hammering it home.
[00:49:55]  But at a certain point, and this speaks to the way that he blurted out her name, it starts to feel like it's just lawyers going at lawyers.
[00:50:04]  Yes, yeah, absolutely.
[00:50:05]  And so you're kind of watching this game play out between two legal teams that are really only concerned with each other.
[00:50:13]  Do you know what I mean?
[00:50:14]  Yeah.
[00:50:14]  And gaming each other.
[00:50:16]  We saw this with Kate.
[00:50:18]  Yeah, in some way.
[00:50:19]  Yeah, totally.
[00:50:20]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:50:22]  And it's like, you've got this girl sitting here who is like a fucking drug addict who was like abused as a child, like from four years old.
[00:50:32]  Yeah.
[00:50:32]  By family members and then like thrown into fucking Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:50:38]  Like it's just like so horrible.
[00:50:40]  The most horrible things you're hearing.
[00:50:43]  And you're just seeing these, you know, different attorneys basically carve out and game out their version of what happened irrespective of like what she's actually said or what she's continuing to say.
[00:50:58]  Yeah.
[00:50:59]  And so it's like, it feels as though rather than, I mean, and even sometimes the prosecution feels this way.
[00:51:06]  Yeah.
[00:51:06]  Honestly.
[00:51:08]  Like they're all guilty in my mind.
[00:51:09]  I don't like lawyers.
[00:51:13]  But it's just like, it feels like what then gets shaped into what happened has nothing to do with actually what these girls are saying.
[00:51:22]  And like they're just continuing to be used just in the same way that Ghelain used them.
[00:51:28]  Yeah.
[00:51:28]  I mean, it's, it's, it's, it seems like, I don't know.
[00:51:33]  I mean, I have never been called to testify or anything like that, been up on the stand, but it seems like such an almost not dehumanizing in the way that you're treated like a piece of meat, but like you're treated like just another like piece of evidence or paper, right?
[00:51:46]  For either side.
[00:51:47]  And that, that seemed, I mean, even with the prosecution and her, like this sort of like fake, nice way they were talking to her.
[00:51:54]  I mean, like, so everything kind of reeked of condescension.
[00:51:59]  But yeah, I mean, that's, I can only imagine how this afternoon went with that.
[00:52:04]  Yeah, because it's also like, you know, the deposition that she's reading from was one, written, I mean, not the deposition, but the claim that she made in her suit was, you know, shaped by her lawyers at the time in order to, for her to get the best version of what she could get out of Epstein and Kellen, right?
[00:52:28]  And so it is inevitably shaped into a narrative that the court, like, and so certain things are omitted, certain things are focused on, whatever, right?
[00:52:38]  And the same thing happens in every case.
[00:52:41]  And so then, but then what the defense was doing, what Pagliachi is doing, is then pulling that claim and saying, but this is what you said.
[00:52:49]  And it's like, but that's not what she said has ever happened.
[00:52:52]  It's just the version of what happened that a legal team decided was the best version to present in order to get whatever.
[00:53:02]  In a civil suit, yes.
[00:53:03]  In a civil suit, in the same way that like right now, the, you know, for better or for worse, the same thing is happening with the way that the state's attorney's office is picking which victims in order to shape the case that they need in order to prosecute Ghelane.
[00:53:20]  Exactly, which questions to ask.
[00:53:21]  And that naturally shapes the testimony they give as well.
[00:53:24]  Yeah.
[00:53:24]  And I guess I'm just like, I, you know, I understand that this exists and why it exists and whatever.
[00:53:30]  But you're, it's like at a certain point, like Pagliachi is asking her using these like legal terms.
[00:53:35]  And she's just like, exas, she's exhausted.
[00:53:38]  She's fucking sobbing.
[00:53:40]  She's like, I don't know what that means.
[00:53:42]  That's not what happened.
[00:53:43]  I know what happened.
[00:53:45]  Like, why aren't you just asking me normal questions?
[00:53:47]  Like, but she's a normal person.
[00:53:48]  Exactly.
[00:53:49]  Yeah.
[00:53:50]  And instead, you're just watching this fucking legal, these legal matches.
[00:53:54]  It's like watching a YouTube debate or something.
[00:53:57]  Yeah.
[00:53:57]  And I know certain people like that shit, but it makes me feel like those are the kind of people that have no actual like connection to what, to the real world and real people and real pain.
[00:54:09]  Yeah.
[00:54:10]  And it's just, it started to make me feel really sick watching all this.
[00:54:15]  Well, it's almost over.

=== Can't Believe It's Almost Over (00:54) ===

[00:54:18]  Not.
[00:54:19]  Not.
[00:54:20]  I can't believe that the prosecution is going to rest.
[00:54:24]  The prosecution is going to rest.
[00:54:25]  And I think from what I understand, from what I understand, this could be wrong.
[00:54:30]  There might be about four weeks of defense.
[00:54:32]  And I believe from the things that they have teased and from the foundations they have laid, they are going to bring in every angry ex-boyfriend, every stern bartender, everybody that's been tipped 18% instead of 20 in everybody's lives to come in and be like, you know what?
[00:54:48]  They're fucking liars and they asked for it.
[00:54:51]  And even if they didn't, they were whores anyways.
[00:54:55]  So we're going to see that.
[00:54:57]  Well, the prosecution may soon be resting, but you know what?
[00:55:01]  We're not.
[00:55:01]  No.
[00:55:02]  So I'm Liz.
[00:55:03]  My name is Brace.
[00:55:04]  And of course, we are joined on the ones and twos Diplo style by producer Young Chomsky.
[00:55:09]  And this has been Truanon.
[00:55:11]  We will see you next time.