True Anon Truth Feed - 👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 6 👁️
Aired: 2021-12-07
Duration: 01:09:21


=== Giant Thunder's Liz (01:25) ===

[00:00:00]  Welcome to day six.
[00:00:01]  Oh, Liz was about to talk.
[00:00:03]  What were you going to say?
[00:00:04]  I was going to say, woo-wee, what a day.
[00:00:06]  Oh, me?
[00:00:07]  I'm like, nothing.
[00:00:08]  one in the bag okay we are trying a new way of recording today What does that mean?
[00:00:31]  That means that Liz and I are both in mud baths that we've created in the tiny little shoebox that I've been renting from a couple of heroin addicts on the Lower East side.
[00:00:43]  Oh, my God.
[00:00:43]  Johnny Blunders and Gigi Allen.
[00:00:47]  And no, we're doing it on a new device.
[00:00:50]  In 40 years, you're still going to be making those references.
[00:00:53]  Yeah.
[00:00:54]  Giant Thunder's Liz.
[00:00:55]  I mean, dude, check this out about Giant Thunder.
[00:00:57]  We got a big episode for you today, but we can't talk a lot about Johnny Thunder.
[00:01:01]  I'm going to talk about this for one second.
[00:01:03]  Johnny Thunder's OD'd from shooting up acid and died.
[00:01:07]  Which is really weird.
[00:01:09]  Why would you do that?
[00:01:10]  Well, he thought it was something else, but there was a lot of confusion.
[00:01:13]  What did he think it was?
[00:01:14]  Heroin.
[00:01:15]  But why would he think that?
[00:01:16]  I don't know.
[00:01:17]  Liquid?
[00:01:18]  I mean, I've never liquid morphine, he might have thought it was.
[00:01:20]  You know, I've done that, but it's, yeah, it's very confusing.
[00:01:23]  Must have been 80.
[00:01:24]  They should make acid green.

=== Massage Room Revelations (07:43) ===

[00:01:26]  Yeah.
[00:01:26]  So that no one can get confused.
[00:01:27]  And also because it's like, whoa, acid.
[00:01:30]  I fully agree with that.
[00:01:32]  Yeah.
[00:01:33]  Okay.
[00:01:34]  Hello, everyone.
[00:01:35]  Let's get the intros out of the way.
[00:01:36]  I'm Liz.
[00:01:37]  My name is Brace, and I am for the first time in Truanon history sitting directly across the table from Young Chomsky.
[00:01:43]  Small table and big eyes.
[00:01:46]  So we are Truanon.
[00:01:48]  That's nice.
[00:01:49]  Hello.
[00:01:50]  Hello.
[00:01:51]  We have a big show for you today because a lot happened.
[00:01:55]  You know how we're like, oh, this, oh, it's going to be days where there's lulls and, oh, where we leave early, maybe.
[00:02:02]  No, not today.
[00:02:03]  Not today.
[00:02:04]  Big, in fact, we stayed late.
[00:02:05]  Yeah, we stayed late and watched the lawyers argue.
[00:02:09]  Which that was an incredible overrules there.
[00:02:13]  We're doing, we're mixing it up a little bit today.
[00:02:15]  We're actually going to start with the end of the day first and then go into the beginning of the day.
[00:02:19]  Yes.
[00:02:20]  So today started out with FBI special agent Kelly Maguire up at the stand.
[00:02:25]  It didn't start out.
[00:02:26]  It ended or second.
[00:02:28]  The penultimate witness was FBI special agent Kelly Maguire.
[00:02:32]  And boy, she cut a striking figure.
[00:02:34]  I sound like a sports announcer.
[00:02:35]  Yeah, you do.
[00:02:37]  Well, she looked like fucking Megan Rappana.
[00:02:39]  I know.
[00:02:39]  You were really taken by her.
[00:02:41]  She had that.
[00:02:42]  You know why?
[00:02:43]  It was, yeah, I mean.
[00:02:44]  For fresh listeners, I look like a lesbian.
[00:02:47]  And so I think that like I they could see you had a little Maddow in the face.
[00:02:53]  Look at my hair.
[00:02:54]  Dude, if you put a sideways hat and some overalls on me, I'm getting my pussy licked.
[00:03:01]  So I guess I'll just keep talking now after that silence.
[00:03:05]  She was the actual, she was the part of the child exploitation and human trafficking task force in the FBI.
[00:03:14]  And on July 6th, 2019, she executed the search warrant at Jeffrey Epstein's New York townhouse, where we went just actually several episodes now.
[00:03:25]  She was the search team leader.
[00:03:27]  And so they had her up on the stand to talk about some things that she had found.
[00:03:31]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:03:32]  So they kind of walk through a bunch of photographs of the townhouse.
[00:03:35]  Now, we've seen some photos of the interior before.
[00:03:39]  Yeah.
[00:03:40]  But not many.
[00:03:41]  Yeah.
[00:03:41]  So we've seen pictures from the townhouse, but mostly from like, there's like one old like architecture today or something artist.
[00:03:48]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:03:49]  And then most of it's just based on personal descriptions.
[00:03:53]  Yeah.
[00:03:54]  And of course, the, which I'm surprised didn't get mentioned today, the Bill Clinton in a blue dress, devil in a blue dress.
[00:04:01]  Well, painting.
[00:04:02]  So this is a little fun legalese.
[00:04:06]  There was a big back and forth over the weekend over the submission of these photos of the interiors because the defense is like, okay, you're going to show the interiors, fine.
[00:04:18]  But this only shows the interiors in 2019 when the search was executed.
[00:04:24]  You have no knowledge or no visuals or anything about what the townhouse actually looked like during the years 1994 to 2004 that are the like scope of the investigation.
[00:04:39]  Exactly.
[00:04:39]  Yeah.
[00:04:40]  And so one of the big things was: okay, movable pieces like art that could have easily been put up, put down in that interim period, like after 2004.
[00:04:52]  Yeah.
[00:04:53]  You know, that could be prejudicial.
[00:04:55]  We want to, so all of that was redacted.
[00:04:57]  Yes.
[00:04:57]  So we literally, it was just big black boxes on the walls, which sucks because one, maybe the Bill Clinton painting was in there.
[00:05:07]  And two, we know that Jeffrey has fucking insane taste in art.
[00:05:12]  Well, so that was a thing is that minor victim number one, Jane, talked about seeing, and this was quoted in both the government and defense's legal filings on the matter that went out this weekend: creepy animals.
[00:05:25]  Yes.
[00:05:25]  Like stuffed animals.
[00:05:27]  And that's particularly in reference to a stuffed tiger and a stuffed dog.
[00:05:33]  And those were considered movable, like Liz said, movable pieces.
[00:05:37]  So like you could have your fucking stuffed dog.
[00:05:40]  I want to repeat that again.
[00:05:42]  What if it was Max?
[00:05:43]  No, it wasn't Max.
[00:05:44]  I know, but what if?
[00:05:45]  What if it was Max?
[00:05:46]  That would be fucking crazy.
[00:05:49]  It's the other man in Delaney's life, being a white woman at all.
[00:05:53]  But so yeah, she had a, so he had, you know, these stuffed animals, and I guess they could have been moved from room.
[00:05:58]  And by the way, we mean, I'm assuming we're talking taxidermy here, not like teddy bears.
[00:06:02]  Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no.
[00:06:04]  Yeah, they are taxidermy.
[00:06:05]  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:06]  It just sounds funny to say Jeffrey Epstein's stuffed animals.
[00:06:09]  But yeah, so we did see, however, some images of the house that were taken by the FBI that I had not seen before.
[00:06:16]  And I got to say, it is.
[00:06:18]  The Palm Beach house, I've had many people in that courtroom, reporters and regular people alike, remark to me on how shitty his Palm Beach house looked.
[00:06:29]  And we've been knowing the man has bad taste.
[00:06:32]  Well, and we've been knowing Galene was the decorator.
[00:06:34]  Exactly.
[00:06:35]  And yeah, it's exactly.
[00:06:37]  Yeah, I made a note here about there's very heavy mauve drapes in a bunch of the rooms, which is a very odd choice.
[00:06:46]  The Paisley wallpaper.
[00:06:49]  Yeah, in the massage room.
[00:06:50]  In the massage room, and I think in the closet.
[00:06:55]  It was very, okay, this is to my gays and my girls out there.
[00:07:00]  It was very Trey McDougal pre-Charlotte York's renovation of the Park Avenue apartment.
[00:07:09]  What is he talking about?
[00:07:10]  So there's a lot of plaid, a lot of like heavy colors, chrome fixtures.
[00:07:17]  There was a green marble bathroom off of the massage room.
[00:07:22]  And it was so funny because all the photos were taken and the defense brought this up in their cross-examination.
[00:07:26]  They're like, these photos were taken at night, correct?
[00:07:30]  And so a flash was used, correct?
[00:07:32]  Because they looked even creepier with like flash photography.
[00:07:35]  Everything looked like as flash photography always is, unless you're doing like some, you know, like point and shoot fucking Supreme.
[00:07:46]  Who's that or whatever?
[00:07:47]  She's a rapist guy, too.
[00:07:48]  Yeah, yeah, Richardson.
[00:07:50]  Yeah.
[00:07:52]  Yeah.
[00:07:52]  You got your like contacts out or whatever.
[00:07:54]  You're doing your party, your, you know, party photography.
[00:07:56]  Typically contacts.
[00:07:57]  But yeah, so it just looked really, like, it looked even creepier than it already looked, which was very creepy.
[00:08:03]  Yeah, I described it as dismal photos.
[00:08:06]  Yeah, it is very dismal.
[00:08:08]  So this was, so one of the main, one of the main reasons they put these photos up is so that we could see the massage room at his, his, uh, his townhouse.
[00:08:16]  And like Liz said, the massage room had these Paisley walls, which, I mean, all right, I'm not a guy who's gotten a lot of massages, you know, and I'm certainly not a man who's so into massages that I would have a room in my house dedicated to them.
[00:08:30]  Sure.
[00:08:31]  Which would be rather difficult.
[00:08:32]  But Paisley wallpaper is an insane choice.
[00:08:37]  Overall, I mean, I scooted it up right close, as close as I could look to it.
[00:08:41]  I mean, it was, it was, just looked, I mean, there was nothing that crazy in it.
[00:08:44]  It just looked like a massage room, you know, had the green bed with a talent.
[00:08:51]  Metal folding chairs, which I found very tacky.
[00:08:53]  I know the whole thing was just, it was dark, not in the way that it was very dark and heavy.
[00:08:59]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:09:00]  It felt like it.
[00:09:02]  I'm not saying dark in a way that it felt like you were like, you know, gonna get eaten or something, but like it was darkened, like it was literally very dark.

=== Labeled Boxes Identified (08:55) ===

[00:09:10]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:09:10]  Like not calming looking.
[00:09:12]  Yeah, no, like it felt like a place where the drapes are always pulled.
[00:09:15]  Like there's no natural light coming in.
[00:09:17]  It's all very, I don't know, like it's like a den, but not something, not a den you want to be in.
[00:09:25]  I had a giant wooden shelf full of like, you know, lotions and potions to put on.
[00:09:30]  Yeah, I think I've, I think I saw Sicily.
[00:09:33]  I was trying to pick out the problem.
[00:09:34]  No, that's a, that's a, that's a, that's an island.
[00:09:37]  No, Sicily, S-I-S-L-E-Y, Sicily, Paris.
[00:09:42]  Um, I did spot Bioderma eye makeup remover on his bathroom vanity, which was very weird.
[00:09:50]  And in that bathroom was a safe.
[00:09:52]  Yes.
[00:09:53]  So, well, let's do this in order.
[00:09:55]  Okay.
[00:09:56]  Because this is sort of the big news of the day.
[00:09:58]  And this is something that we've talked about on so many goddamn episodes.
[00:10:03]  There is reporting that came out immediately.
[00:10:07]  Immediately after the raid on Epstein's townhouse.
[00:10:11]  So, like we said, she participated in the July 6th, 2019 raid on Epstein's townhouse.
[00:10:18]  Yes.
[00:10:19]  And that's where almost all of these pictures that we talked about, or all these pictures that we talked about so far, came from.
[00:10:24]  Yes.
[00:10:25]  And we didn't think, I mean, there's been a lot of back and forth about if certain CDs would be admissible from that.
[00:10:32]  And if we'd be able to see anything off those CDs if those CDs, the existence of them was admitted, you know what I mean?
[00:10:38]  We didn't really know up until basically now whether that would be okay.
[00:10:42]  Look how lawyerly we're being.
[00:10:43]  It's kind of fun.
[00:10:44]  I know.
[00:10:44]  Well, listen, you've been swimming with the sharks.
[00:10:47]  You catch a little chump.
[00:10:50]  But yeah, so, okay, the question came, and I did not see this coming.
[00:10:56]  Did there come a time when you got permission to search the residence for things like CDs?
[00:11:03]  I know.
[00:11:03]  Everyone went, well, actually, no.
[00:11:05]  Briece and I went, a bunch of the regga normies reporters, you know who I'm talking about.
[00:11:13]  We're like, maybe this isn't their, you know, Epstein isn't their beat, but maybe crime is.
[00:11:17]  Yeah.
[00:11:17]  I had no idea what they're talking about.
[00:11:19]  There were, I will say, the gasps built as this, as this next segment went on.
[00:11:24]  But we be knew we knew.
[00:11:25]  Oh, immediately.
[00:11:26]  I mean, I was, I was, I'm leaping, my heart was leaping out of my chest.
[00:11:29]  So see, points to government exhibit.
[00:11:32]  Well, a few government exhibits.
[00:11:34]  914, 925, and the 925R, which means redacted.
[00:11:40]  And so 914 is a closet on the fifth floor at the left-hand side of the closet, CD binders that are labeled.
[00:11:47]  We weren't allowed to see that.
[00:11:49]  Yes, we were not allowed to see that one.
[00:11:52]  But then 925, we were also not allowed to see because that was under seal.
[00:11:57]  But the jury saw.
[00:11:58]  The jury saw it.
[00:11:59]  And we weren't allowed to see that because of unidentified third parties.
[00:12:05]  Yes.
[00:12:06]  And so the photo that we did end up seeing, which I will say did shock me, but also infuriated me, was 13 binders in a row.
[00:12:19]  But with all of their spines blacked out.
[00:12:23]  Yeah, redacted.
[00:12:24]  Redacted.
[00:12:24]  And so.
[00:12:25]  So it's like, imagine a closet shelf.
[00:12:28]  Yeah.
[00:12:29]  And it's just full of what I would say were anywhere between varying sizes from five inches to 10 inch binders.
[00:12:39]  I mean, these were huge.
[00:12:40]  These were binders where like you're getting your fucking PhD in Deleuze.
[00:12:44]  Yes.
[00:12:44]  These were doctorate level trapper keepers.
[00:12:47]  Exactly.
[00:12:47]  It was, it was insane.
[00:12:48]  And so to be clear, we've known that Epstein had CDs.
[00:12:54]  That were labeled.
[00:12:55]  That were labeled in his house.
[00:12:58]  The ones that we have known about come from the safe.
[00:13:02]  These are a separate set of binders.
[00:13:05]  Yes.
[00:13:06]  And boy, there was a fucking, like Liz said, a ton of them.
[00:13:10]  Yes.
[00:13:11]  Now, my assumption is that they are full of plastic sleeves that are all CDs.
[00:13:18]  Yes.
[00:13:19]  And so, well, no, that's basically what they said.
[00:13:21]  I mean, we didn't get to see the inside of them, but the implication and what was said was essentially that they were filled with CDs.
[00:13:27]  Yes.
[00:13:29]  And so when this happens, the defense comes over to the lectern and starts like furiously talking to the government counsel.
[00:13:39]  914 is withdrawn.
[00:13:41]  They introduce all three of these exhibits at the same time.
[00:13:43]  So, you know, rewinding a little bit, 914 is withdrawn right after they do that.
[00:13:47]  And then more conferring and then a follow-up because there were some white labels on them.
[00:13:53]  And they were like, well, those were what was redacted.
[00:13:57]  And the counsel for the government was forced to then ask, were those labels on them before or after the FBI took them into custody?
[00:14:06]  And the special agent Kelly McGuire answered they were on there before.
[00:14:10]  So these labels were already affixed to the sleeves of the binders.
[00:14:14]  And there were also some blue sticky notes or post-it notes, rather.
[00:14:17]  Sticky notes, post-notes.
[00:14:18]  That's the same thing.
[00:14:19]  They were the same.
[00:14:19]  Yeah.
[00:14:20]  That the FBI put on.
[00:14:21]  The FBI did put those on there.
[00:14:22]  Wait, so I have a question.
[00:14:23]  Yes.
[00:14:24]  Brace.
[00:14:25]  Why do you think that they reversoed and pulled that one exhibit out?
[00:14:33]  I honestly don't know because it's seems to be that it was just a wider shot of the closet.
[00:14:40]  You think?
[00:14:41]  Well, that's what that's she.
[00:14:42]  So Kelly McGuire identified that exhibit, right?
[00:14:46]  They didn't admit it to evidence, but she identified or yeah, she identified it.
[00:14:51]  And so that's what she said.
[00:14:52]  She said closet on fifth floor at left-hand side of closet, CD binders labeled.
[00:14:58]  And then the next 925 was same binders, closer photo.
[00:15:02]  Okay.
[00:15:02]  So, yeah, it's just, it's just closer.
[00:15:04]  I was confused by that too.
[00:15:06]  But later, I think we got a little clue when after court was adjourned and they were the lawyers, you know, were talking with the judge.
[00:15:14]  They were talking about how they wanted to introduce too many photos.
[00:15:17]  And I'm assuming that's what it was.
[00:15:19]  They wanted to like limit how many things they introduced.
[00:15:22]  Yeah, because, yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:24]  Because suddenly, you know, it's like one thing after another, after another, and it starts gaining its own momentum for the jury.
[00:15:30]  So we were told what was inside of these binders were clear pages with, and this I thought was really interesting, with printed thumbnails of photos and CDs containing those pictures.
[00:15:41]  Now, the photos, the thumbnails corresponding to the CDs is an assumption made by the detective because she did not actually look at the CDs.
[00:15:55]  Well, she did at a later date, but yeah, she did not like immediately go put those into a CD drive.
[00:16:01]  But so very well organized.
[00:16:04]  Yes.
[00:16:04]  And that's like cataloged.
[00:16:06]  Like, also, dude, what?
[00:16:08]  You got printed thumbnails of pictures of girls?
[00:16:12]  Well, we don't, yeah.
[00:16:13]  Yeah.
[00:16:14]  I'm assuming.
[00:16:15]  Yeah.
[00:16:15]  I mean, well, yeah, that's what, I mean, that's.
[00:16:16]  So we could like go back and look at them.
[00:16:18]  I know, but it's like, can't you just like write what they are on there?
[00:16:22]  It's like, can you not read?
[00:16:25]  I don't know.
[00:16:26]  Words?
[00:16:27]  Maybe he's like, never mind.
[00:16:28]  I'm not going to do that.
[00:16:29]  Well, so then they show us government exhibit 926.
[00:16:35]  And this was, according to Kelly McGuire, this is her description.
[00:16:39]  Photo taken in center of closet room, drawer with several CDs.
[00:16:44]  And so the next photo is from another, from a closet or possibly the same closet, actually, is like this big box or a drawer rather with a ton of, there's some loose CDs in there, a ton of CDs and there's like little individual plastic cases.
[00:17:01]  Not talking about the hard, like they are hard cases.
[00:17:03]  No, like sleeves.
[00:17:04]  They're like tiny sleeves though.
[00:17:05]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:17:06]  Individual sleeves.
[00:17:07]  They're individual sleeves.
[00:17:08]  They're not like the thick ones that you'd like get a buy a CD in.
[00:17:12]  And then some other weird sort of boxes.
[00:17:14]  Yeah, like soft packs.
[00:17:17]  Everybody rushed to see.
[00:17:19]  So here's the thing.
[00:17:20]  In the overflow courtroom, this is just the case with all courtrooms, although I think these will be actually released.
[00:17:25]  These should be on, these photos should be online relatively soon.
[00:17:30]  The actual, like, you can't actually see the evidence in super clear detail.
[00:17:35]  Yeah, it's not high def.
[00:17:36]  It's not high def.
[00:17:38]  And so I'm standing like two inches in front of this giant TV.
[00:17:41]  I look at the evidence screen.
[00:17:43]  Showing separate TVs.
[00:17:45]  Exactly.
[00:17:45]  Listen across the room.
[00:17:47]  And from, and so there's a C, the only CD that you can really clearly read anything off of is upside down.
[00:17:53]  And so I have my head twisted in front of all these fucking Daily Mail reporters.
[00:17:57]  And what I see is a CD, a white CDR labeled 8212.

=== Selena Dubin's Godfather (02:02) ===

[00:18:05]  I think it was 8 slash 12.
[00:18:07]  Oh, yeah.
[00:18:08]  It could be 8 slash 12.
[00:18:09]  Yeah, so August 12th.
[00:18:10]  And then Selena.
[00:18:14]  A V and then no idea.
[00:18:17]  And then underneath that and underneath the hole, a Z.
[00:18:20]  Yeah, I saw the Z.
[00:18:21]  Yeah.
[00:18:22]  Everyone around me was agreed that it said Selena.
[00:18:25]  C-E-L-I-N-A, which yes, like Selena Dubin.
[00:18:30]  I'm not saying that's what was on the CD, but it said Selena on that motherfucking CD.
[00:18:35]  I might be wrong.
[00:18:36]  Can you explain again who Selena Dubin is?
[00:18:38]  Yes.
[00:18:39]  So Selena Dubin is the daughter of former Miss Sweden and former Epstein girlfriend, Mrs. Eva Anderson Dubin, the husband of big financial bigwig Glenn Dubin.
[00:18:53]  Yeah.
[00:18:54]  Eva has come up twice already in the trial.
[00:18:57]  Yes.
[00:18:58]  The Dubins.
[00:18:59]  I'm interested to see if they get called.
[00:19:01]  Famous for being, well, Eva Dubin's famous for being one of Jeffrey's sort of most, second most linked girlfriend that didn't work for him.
[00:19:09]  If that wasn't.
[00:19:10]  Yeah, she's pre-Ghalaine.
[00:19:11]  She's pre-Ghalain girlfriend, although he remained friends with her.
[00:19:15]  She is married to like huge financial bigwig, Glenn Dubin.
[00:19:20]  And there is some really horrific testimony about the Dubin's house manager speaking to a dazed and sort of shell-shocked drugged girl in the kitchen of their home saying that she had been had been drugged, had her passport taken from her, taken to an island, etc, etc., and then flown back there.
[00:19:41]  And so the kind of grosser thing about the Dubins is that, well, Jeffrey Epstein is actually Selena Dubin's godfather, and he was going to marry her.
[00:19:52]  Yes.
[00:19:53]  That was, there was a plan for him to marry her.
[00:19:56]  And that his inheritance or she was supposed to inherit his big fortune.
[00:20:01]  So I was, I mean, that was shocking to me to see that.

=== Evidence Tags on Hard Drives (14:49) ===

[00:20:08]  Shocking to me, actually, to see that, like, they didn't redact that because it was, again, if higher definition pictures come out and I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
[00:20:18]  But I'm staking right now that said Selena on it.
[00:20:21]  You know what, though?
[00:20:22]  Like, they are not that careful with redactions.
[00:20:25]  They're doing them really quickly.
[00:20:26]  And in some cases, they're doing them in like literally on the computer screens right before they present the evidence.
[00:20:33]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:20:34]  God, I'd love to be one of those guys in like Soviet Russia, 1955, who's just like redacting.
[00:20:41]  So yeah, I mean, who knows?
[00:20:43]  You know, maybe they thought that no one would be craning their neck upside down.
[00:20:48]  Yes, yeah, my dream job, I think, is army letter sensor.
[00:20:52]  Yeah, and so this was this was only supplanted by the next thing that they showed them.
[00:21:00]  Yes, like Liz said, the safe.
[00:21:02]  Yeah, so then they move into the um third floor.
[00:21:09]  So the CDs on the shelf were on the fifth floor.
[00:21:12]  The images, like I said, there's an image of a bathroom where the bioderma makeup remover was, strangely, on the vanity.
[00:21:22]  And there is a huge safe that they pull out, and there's a bunch of stuff piled on top of it.
[00:21:29]  Now, we had again in the reporting when they raided Epstein's townhouse, it came out that there was a safe, that there was diamonds, guns, passports, um, I believe a Canadian passport.
[00:21:45]  Yes, uh, no, it was an Austrian passport.
[00:21:47]  Yes, that's right.
[00:21:48]  Residence being Riyadh.
[00:21:50]  Riyadh.
[00:21:51]  Yes.
[00:21:51]  Very weird.
[00:21:53]  Um, so in this photo, you see not really a binder, but it's more like a folio, like one of those thick folios with plastic sleeves in it.
[00:22:04]  Exactly.
[00:22:04]  A good deal thinner than the binders that we saw.
[00:22:08]  Absolutely.
[00:22:08]  I mean, the binders literally were like eight inches.
[00:22:11]  It was nerd binders.
[00:22:12]  Yeah, they were crazy.
[00:22:13]  Um, so there's like two uh folios on top of one another, yeah, or on top of each other, and then next to it, there's a bunch of like velvet boxes piled up.
[00:22:25]  A lot of velvet boxes.
[00:22:27]  There's more velvet boxes on the ground.
[00:22:29]  They said all of that was in the safe.
[00:22:31]  Yes.
[00:22:32]  So there's some manila envelopes as well.
[00:22:34]  Yeah, I saw those.
[00:22:35]  I saw those too.
[00:22:36]  I guarantee those had some motherfucking diamonds.
[00:22:38]  Probably the passports.
[00:22:39]  Oh, no.
[00:22:39]  I think the diamonds were in the velvet jewelry.
[00:22:42]  Loose diamonds, they said.
[00:22:43]  Yeah, in the jewelry boxes.
[00:22:44]  Yeah, but does that count as loose?
[00:22:47]  To me, loose diamonds, they're rattling around and they're like a pair of dice in a gamble.
[00:22:50]  Oh, yeah, but you keep them in, you would keep, um, you wouldn't put diamonds in a manila envelope because you don't want them to scratch or tear anything because they're super sharp.
[00:22:59]  So you put them in a velvet, like you have to put them in like a soft, it's like almost like an animal, like a soft mouth.
[00:23:04]  Like those bags that you put like 20-sided dice into.
[00:23:07]  You know what I'm talking about?
[00:23:08]  You tie the top.
[00:23:08]  Yeah.
[00:23:09]  No, I wasn't talking to Liz during that.
[00:23:12]  Anyway, here's the thing about this photo.
[00:23:16]  Yes.
[00:23:17]  So the SVU girl from the FBI, don't remember her name or her official title.
[00:23:24]  Don't care.
[00:23:24]  Don't pull it up.
[00:23:26]  And special agent Kelly Maguire.
[00:23:30]  Okay.
[00:23:31]  I quite admired her.
[00:23:32]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:23:33]  She was wearing a suit.
[00:23:34]  You got a little twinkle in your eye.
[00:23:35]  I'm sorry I'm saying for a fellow member of the LGBT community.
[00:23:40]  So here's the funny thing about this though.
[00:23:43]  Now, they didn't, when they, I almost said when they broke in, when they entered the townhouse, which by the way, they said they had a saw, which is what they used to open the safe.
[00:23:55]  Their warrant did not cover the items in the safe.
[00:23:58]  Yeah.
[00:23:59]  So they were not able to seize them that day.
[00:24:02]  They had to go and get another warrant and come back another day.
[00:24:06]  Although, wah, wah, they do, get this, you guys.
[00:24:10]  The items were gone.
[00:24:11]  So six days later, they're back and they're like, uh, safe is empty.
[00:24:15]  And so she calls Richard Khan.
[00:24:17]  Yeah.
[00:24:18]  Epstein's lawyer who there's a lot of photos of him scurrying in.
[00:24:21]  I know, it's crazy.
[00:24:22]  He's actually Genghis Khan's son.
[00:24:24]  He's, he's, there's a bunch of photos of him like scurrying in and out of the townhouse in the days after Epstein's arrest and suicide.
[00:24:30]  Yeah, well, he was fucking moving.
[00:24:32]  Exactly.
[00:24:32]  He's moving some goods.
[00:24:34]  And he's like, oh, oh, that stuff from the safe.
[00:24:38]  Didn't think you guys would want that.
[00:24:41]  Totally.
[00:24:41]  I'll be right there.
[00:24:42]  I'll bring it to you in the suitcases.
[00:24:45]  And the FBI is like, great.
[00:24:47]  Thank you.
[00:24:48]  That's so cool of you.
[00:24:49]  She literally was like, it looks like everything is there.
[00:24:52]  And I'm like, bitch, you're crazy.
[00:24:54]  Yes.
[00:24:55]  I mean, here's the thing.
[00:24:56]  Mr. Khan wasn't like, oh, we're just going to take them for safekeeping.
[00:25:00]  Yeah.
[00:25:00]  Because here's the thing.
[00:25:01]  Even if there's actual, all the CDs are in the binder, talk about chain of motherfucking custody.
[00:25:07]  Yes, absolutely.
[00:25:08]  We need a chain of string.
[00:25:09]  Also, they didn't, it's not like they, I mean, they didn't count the amount of things.
[00:25:13]  They didn't look at every CD.
[00:25:15]  Yeah.
[00:25:16]  They, like, before all that stuff got moved.
[00:25:19]  Yeah.
[00:25:19]  I mean, they probably looked through it, but they didn't, I mean, no, they didn't look at the, I mean, yeah, they didn't look at the code.
[00:25:24]  They didn't look at the actual contents of the CDs.
[00:25:26]  It's honestly insane.
[00:25:27]  Yeah.
[00:25:28]  Yeah.
[00:25:28]  They generally saw that there was a bunch of things, but they have no idea.
[00:25:32]  I mean, it's just completely and totally, completely, totally insane.
[00:25:37]  Yes, exactly.
[00:25:38]  And it's the other thing, too, is so we find out sort of from this questioning that what's contained on those CDs is pictures.
[00:25:48]  Yes.
[00:25:49]  And that sort of leaves one to wonder, well, if there's pictures, where would there be video?
[00:25:56]  So my thinking on this time for everything is that we saw basically two big Tupperware boxes.
[00:26:09]  Yes.
[00:26:09]  Big plastic, the kind that like people are like, I'm just, I don't, I need extra storage.
[00:26:13]  I'm going to get these my sweaters under the bed or whatever.
[00:26:16]  Like that size Tupperware bin full of hard drives.
[00:26:20]  Container store style.
[00:26:21]  Yeah, totally.
[00:26:23]  So there was, so there was hard drives made a bit of, so there was some external hard drives in the safe.
[00:26:28]  Yes.
[00:26:29]  Although you couldn't make them out in the picture.
[00:26:31]  That picture, I got to say, to back your safe.
[00:26:34]  Do you guys know that picture?
[00:26:35]  Like sometimes people will post it.
[00:26:36]  It's like, oh, this is my room.
[00:26:39]  And it's just like nothing's identifiable.
[00:26:41]  Like every time you look at it, like it's like AR generator.
[00:26:45]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:45]  And so it felt like that, where I was like, I can kind of make out some of this stuff.
[00:26:49]  Yeah, weirdly, everything kind of looked the same color.
[00:26:52]  Yeah, everything looked the same color.
[00:26:53]  They all just looked like boxes, you know?
[00:26:56]  Yeah, yeah, but like it was, I don't know, it's hard to describe, but that's, I guess, the point.
[00:27:01]  But like Liz was saying, huge Tupper, Tupperware?
[00:27:05]  No, container store style plastic box of hard drives.
[00:27:09]  Yeah.
[00:27:09]  And KitchenAid.
[00:27:11]  Kitchen.
[00:27:12]  Yes, exactly.
[00:27:12]  KitchenAid.
[00:27:14]  And so this is, look, I wrote the evidence down a number down here.
[00:27:20]  GX54, Government Exhibit 650.
[00:27:24]  I write the GX.
[00:27:25]  I don't know if that's like the actual way they abbreviate it, but it stands for government exhibit.
[00:27:29]  These featured in 935, or excuse me, in parentheses, R for redacted.
[00:27:36]  And so that means that they, you know, they're in a closet and fixture in another, another photo.
[00:27:40]  And a ton of fucking hard drives.
[00:27:44]  Like a metric fucking ton of hard drives.
[00:27:46]  Giant box stacks.
[00:27:48]  I would say it looked like it would probably, I mean, what, 20 pounds?
[00:27:55]  Yeah.
[00:27:56]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:27:57]  I mean, it's, it's, it almost has enough terabytes to download a Call of Duty up there.
[00:28:02]  Oh my God.
[00:28:03]  It was like a shit ton of fucking hard drives, though.
[00:28:05]  A shit ton.
[00:28:06]  Where you're like, I've never seen them.
[00:28:09]  Who has that many hard drives?
[00:28:11]  So this was, so this was what is haunting me.
[00:28:17]  Is they, there was, so remember how they asked before about the fucking CD binders?
[00:28:22]  And they're like, was that government, you know, were those sticky notes on there before?
[00:28:26]  And like, she like said when different labels are put on there.
[00:28:30]  So there was a evidence tags on the hard drives, at least some of the hard drives in this box.
[00:28:39]  And the council, government counsel, asks, Maureen Comey asks, were there, were these evidence tags there?
[00:28:50]  Like, did you guys put those there essentially?
[00:28:52]  And the FBI special agent says, no, those were there before.
[00:28:58]  And so the reason that that confuses me is when Epstein's Florida house was raided, very famously, he had received a call the day prior from Palm Beach Police Department.
[00:29:10]  And they pulled all the computers.
[00:29:11]  Pulled all the computers.
[00:29:12]  I mean, that is in the reporting on it.
[00:29:14]  They pulled the computers.
[00:29:15]  They took the hard drives out of computers.
[00:29:18]  One of the most sort of well-known aspects of that is the hard drives were missing.
[00:29:23]  And so, where are these evidence tags from?
[00:29:26]  I have no idea.
[00:29:27]  I have no idea either.
[00:29:28]  And nobody had any idea.
[00:29:30]  And so that is hopefully a mystery that, I mean, wahoo, am I fucking kidding?
[00:29:36]  They should open it up for community questions.
[00:29:38]  Yeah, they should exactly.
[00:29:40]  It's kind of like a, you know, it's like, okay, now that we've had this, does anyone else have any reason why these two should not, you know what I mean?
[00:29:46]  Like weddings.
[00:29:48]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:29:49]  Public interest comments.
[00:29:50]  They should let, I mean, at least, at the very least, they should let the jury be like, so what's up with that?
[00:29:55]  Sometimes they do.
[00:29:56]  Really?
[00:29:56]  Yeah.
[00:29:56]  Oh, weird.
[00:29:57]  I've always taken pleas, so it's like never, never come to that.
[00:30:01]  And then basically.
[00:30:03]  I mean, she talks, there's some foreshadowing, classic lawyer foreshadowing, talking about data analysts at the FBI.
[00:30:11]  But then the questioning basically abruptly stops.
[00:30:15]  Yes.
[00:30:15]  Well, that's because the chain of custody changes.
[00:30:19]  And then they introduce Kimberly Bader.
[00:30:24]  Now, I did write her name down.
[00:30:25]  I think it's Mader.
[00:30:26]  Mater?
[00:30:27]  Yeah.
[00:30:28]  Though I didn't write her name down right.
[00:30:29]  Well, so here's the thing.
[00:30:31]  They're saying their names.
[00:30:33]  They're talking.
[00:30:34]  They spelled them.
[00:30:35]  They spelled them, but when they were spelling them, she was like, this fucking Kimberly did not have the mic very close to her phone.
[00:30:42]  And so you couldn't really hear it.
[00:30:45]  So she might be a registered dietitian at DeVita Kidney Kim.
[00:30:48]  No, I don't think so.
[00:30:49]  Okay.
[00:30:49]  Well, or she's an FBI data operations specialist or an analyst on child exploitation and human trafficking squad.
[00:30:54]  That is correct.
[00:30:55]  Okay.
[00:30:56]  So it doesn't really matter what her last name is.
[00:30:58]  So, by the way, it was very funny because at this point too, Maureen Comey takes over questioning and she's like questioning an FBI agent.
[00:31:05]  And it's like, that's weird.
[00:31:07]  Your dad was her boss.
[00:31:08]  Yeah.
[00:31:09]  I think that's a weird dynamic.
[00:31:12]  But Kimberly takes the stand and we're opening up tomorrow morning with Kimberly as well.
[00:31:16]  Kimberly is kind of nice with it.
[00:31:19]  Listen, I don't want to be, I feel like the dynamics of this are not great.
[00:31:23]  So I'm just going to, I'm going to, you know what?
[00:31:25]  Foundation secured and I'm going to further questioning.
[00:31:28]  She's hot.
[00:31:29]  Yeah, she's a very pretty girl, woman, who is a very, a professional person.
[00:31:38]  So she, you know what's interesting, and we both noted this, when she was being questioned, she consistently referred to the FBI investigation into the Epstein and Maxwell case.
[00:31:49]  Yes.
[00:31:50]  And she, I think she purposely, because Kimberly, you know, she's a company girl.
[00:31:53]  And she seen you to add the Maxwell in there.
[00:31:56]  The thing is, too, about Kimberly is Kimberly has seen the photos.
[00:32:00]  So that's the thing.
[00:32:01]  So she is a data analyst and she explains, okay, once the people who search the townhouse chain of custody changes, you bring them to the FBA.
[00:32:09]  I'm the girl who's on the team who takes the CDs, uploads them onto our computer, copies them onto our computer, and then looks at all the files.
[00:32:18]  Yeah, she and another woman named Special Agent Amanda Young reviewed and then copied each of the CDs.
[00:32:22]  I'm picturing them doing it.
[00:32:23]  Like, do you, do you remember when people had those external CD burners on computers?
[00:32:28]  Yeah.
[00:32:28]  I remember that too.
[00:32:29]  Like you download it from LimeWire.
[00:32:31]  Yeah, that was weird.
[00:32:32]  I had a lot of those.
[00:32:34]  CDs are cool.
[00:32:35]  Yeah.
[00:32:36]  I'm pro-CD.
[00:32:37]  And also now, very expensive.
[00:32:39]  CDs?
[00:32:40]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:40]  Yeah, I heard they're expensive.
[00:32:41]  It's weird.
[00:32:42]  They're going to, yeah, there's a whole CD culture thing that I find very exciting.
[00:32:45]  That's bizarre.
[00:32:46]  I'm still, I still, give me a, give me a classic pushead cleanse the bacteria LP test press.
[00:32:52]  And I'm good.
[00:32:53]  This fucking CD.
[00:32:54]  So, well, the thing about CDs is that the sound quality is really good.
[00:32:59]  And it's much, much better.
[00:33:01]  It's not warm enough.
[00:33:02]  It's not actually warm enough.
[00:33:04]  Well, for people who are like super music people like jazz or classical, it totally makes sense to have really expensive CD collection.
[00:33:11]  You like the classic DC hardcore band T9?
[00:33:15]  Okay, so basically this, we ran out of time today.
[00:33:18]  And by we, I mean the court, which is why Kimberly's testimony kind of got cut short, but we're opening up with her tomorrow.
[00:33:25]  But here's, there was a bunch of interesting facts that came out because basically what the prosecution wants to do is introduce a ton of these photos that were on these CDs into evidence.
[00:33:37]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:38]  This is, this is.
[00:33:40]  And I have a feeling the ones that we will be seeing will be primarily Ghillain and Epstein.
[00:33:48]  I literally almost just called him Epstein.
[00:33:51]  All right, baby.
[00:33:53]  Also, they mentioned that some are victims that we've heard from.
[00:33:59]  But I don't believe that we'll be, let's say, getting a extensive understanding of the vast array of the types of photos that were on these CDs.
[00:34:10]  Yeah.
[00:34:11]  We have long maintained that there are photos and video of famous people engaging in activities that they would like not to be public on these, you know, records that Epstein kept.
[00:34:28]  So to be clear, a guy who hangs out with some of the most powerful people on the planet, politicians, business leaders, scientists, famous people, and gets a lot of them to maybe party and possibly get massages from very young girls.
[00:34:52]  And who also is famous for having cameras throughout his properties?

=== Tapes Outside Scope Charges (02:51) ===

[00:34:57]  Come on.
[00:34:58]  The cameras have not come up at once.
[00:35:00]  No, no, they haven't.
[00:35:02]  But, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, I mean, you know, personally, yeah, I think Epstein probably through Ghulane was maybe using these tapes to get some leverage over people or to help certain government agencies, maybe from certain countries that both Young Chomsky and I hold passports from.
[00:35:22]  You know, I think maybe, you know, her father, like her father worked for Massad, right?
[00:35:26]  And, you know, who knows what she was doing with those tapes.
[00:35:30]  Yeah.
[00:35:31]  We don't, we don't have any confirmation, but, you know, you can make an educated guess or two.
[00:35:34]  Yeah.
[00:35:36]  We do not, we're still talking about the CDs here.
[00:35:39]  I don't know if those actual like tapes will come up, but like they're keeping the focus on this investigation.
[00:35:45]  It's very narrow.
[00:35:46]  Super narrow.
[00:35:47]  I mean, again, like we've, we've told you guys, I don't think that we're going to have a picture of Alan Dershowitz eating a baby.
[00:35:53]  No.
[00:35:53]  Here.
[00:35:54]  Although.
[00:35:55]  That will see.
[00:35:56]  That has been entered into sealed evidence several times.
[00:35:59]  Every single witness, including the pilot, the guy from JP Morgan, and also the butler have agreed that they saw Alan Dershowitz eat several babies.
[00:36:10]  At the end of the night, after like, you know, the trial, like the day is kind of concluded, the defense and the prosecution start arguing over what will be admissible.
[00:36:22]  Yes.
[00:36:22]  And Alice and Nathan basically let everything in.
[00:36:26]  Yeah, I was sort of shocked by this because, I mean, if you're just taking this, like, I think, I think it's easy to be flippant and be like, well, they're going to wash.
[00:36:36]  It's going to be a total, you know, one wash.
[00:36:37]  They're going to cover up.
[00:36:38]  Or, you know, it's like, you know, I didn't think that anything really extraordinary would come out of this.
[00:36:44]  And I still don't think that we're like, again, obviously being hyperbolic earlier, but like, I don't think we're going to be like seeing, you know, this is Prince Andrew doing this, this, and this, right?
[00:36:53]  That's a little outside even the scope of the investigation or the scope of the charges rather.
[00:36:59]  But, but I was shocked that she basically said that all of the images that the government is putting forth are admissible.
[00:37:07]  Yeah.
[00:37:07]  So we're going to get some rare Ghelanes and rare Jeffries.
[00:37:13]  I am because so the reason that the prosecution is introducing a lot of the Jeffrey and Ghelane pictures off of these CDs is to show that they were more than business partners.
[00:37:25]  Right.
[00:37:25]  And that their relationship lasted for a long time.
[00:37:27]  Exactly.
[00:37:28]  Something was brought up very interesting, just one last point on this by the defense, where they said that they had an issue with the metadata and that none of this had been verified.
[00:37:40]  And this whole, there's this whole like legal comment, you know, oh, we're just presenting it as stuff found on Epstein's versus, you know, people testifying to the actual truth of the photos, whatever.

=== PSD Files Mystery (02:00) ===

[00:37:49]  But they mentioned that a bunch of the files on the CDs are PSD files.
[00:37:56]  I could see my man here squinting because that's really weird.
[00:38:00]  Now, I had to double check this because I wanted to make sure that my memory of Photoshop and how all that filing works was correct, and it was.
[00:38:10]  So I called up friend of the pod, Brent Freeni, who's a Photoshop master mind, to double check this.
[00:38:18]  And the only way a file would be a PSD file in Photoshop is if an edit has been made.
[00:38:25]  Like if you open a photo in Photoshop, it will open as the original file format, which would be like a PNG, a JPEG.
[00:38:35]  I know those ones.
[00:38:36]  Yeah, weirdly, like now with iPhones, H-E-I-C, which I hate.
[00:38:40]  Get rid of those.
[00:38:40]  It's terrible.
[00:38:43]  You know, or PDF, even, right?
[00:38:45]  Yeah.
[00:38:45]  If you make an edit to that file, say you tuck, take out a blemish, do a little tummy tuck, or you change lighting or anything, or crop, or just any kind of edit.
[00:38:57]  That will save as a PSD file unless you take like two more steps to save it in another file format.
[00:39:04]  So there's two options here.
[00:39:07]  One, all of those files were edited in Photoshop somehow before they were saved, which is fucking weird.
[00:39:15]  Yeah.
[00:39:16]  Or two, there was a brief moment in time when Adobe was like, if you scan a photo, a hard copy photo, we're going to have it automatically open as a PSD file when you import it from the scanner.
[00:39:34]  Gotcha.
[00:39:35]  So those are my two options for explaining why these photos are not like are actually Adobe, like PSD files, which is just like, I mean, that's fucking crazy because they're edited.
[00:39:48]  Yeah, only some of them are PSD.

=== A Young Girl Among Older People (15:52) ===

[00:39:50]  And they were trying, I think it was two or three they were trying to get like, like not admitted.
[00:39:56]  But yeah, that they're trying to admit.
[00:39:58]  Not in the total.
[00:39:58]  Yeah, not in the total.
[00:39:59]  We don't know how many are the total.
[00:40:02]  But still, it's very weird.
[00:40:04]  But I was like, fuck, maybe they got it.
[00:40:06]  Maybe they got something with that objection.
[00:40:09]  Judge Nathan overruled.
[00:40:10]  Yeah.
[00:40:11]  But I just wanted to point that out because that's kind of like stuck a little bit in my craw.
[00:40:16]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:40:18]  So tomorrow morning is, I mean, I assume they're going to pick right back up with old special agent Kimberly Blankder.
[00:40:27]  And we will hopefully get a lot more insight into what the fuck was on those goddamn CDs.
[00:40:33]  So that wasn't the only big thing that happened today.
[00:40:36]  We actually heard the morning started with us hearing from victim number three.
[00:40:43]  Yeah.
[00:40:44]  This was a shocker to me, actually.
[00:40:48]  Not in terms, I mean, I think we've mentioned probably in the first, I think at least once so far in this series, that there's been some controversy over her inclusion in the indictment.
[00:40:59]  And there has been some, it's been really up in the air whether her testimony, in what capacity it could be used, and whether what happened to her or what she's, what's rather what happened to her in relation to the charges against Ghelane is actually like was technically illegal.
[00:41:16]  That's due to the age of consent in the UK and sort of her fuzzy memory around exactly how old she was when some of this happened.
[00:41:28]  So Alice and Nathan opened it up by saying, like, none of this, like, basically, you're not going to hear any of the details about the sexual conduct and contact that occurred because it was between two consenting adults, technically, because of the age.
[00:41:43]  Yeah.
[00:41:43]  She also said, you may not convict on the basis of this testimony.
[00:41:47]  She was really clear about that.
[00:41:48]  Yeah.
[00:41:49]  And she said, the court at least said that she was over the age of consent.
[00:41:53]  Yeah.
[00:41:54]  So I have to say that just top line introducing this, like, this was very affecting.
[00:42:00]  And I think it's a really interesting contrast to Jane, who we heard from.
[00:42:05]  Yeah.
[00:42:06]  Now, Jane, which we mentioned is an actress, and there's a sort of quality.
[00:42:13]  And I don't think this is like a fault of hers.
[00:42:15]  And I found her testimony very compelling and convincing.
[00:42:18]  And, you know, I believe her story and all that.
[00:42:21]  But I think that when you have a trained voice, that there is a kind of affect that's learned with actresses that ends up in your, like when you're listening to, when I was listening to it, it starts to not feel like a performance, like they're faking it.
[00:42:37]  But the tone and the quality of the voice is so reminiscent of a performance that it's difficult to not make that connection.
[00:42:44]  Yeah.
[00:42:44]  Yeah.
[00:42:44]  This was the complete opposite of that, where I would say Kate, at times, it was very difficult for her to speak.
[00:42:55]  She seemed, she took a lot of long pauses when she was not just trying to be careful with her words, but I think, and as she later talked about, like, you know, you got a very deep sense of shame from her or that she felt about what, about her, you know, the years of abuse.
[00:43:21]  Whenever, when Epstein was first mentioned, like her voice, like the, the tone of her voice changed and it got very like, I don't know, like dark or deeper, like something, it struck this like really crazy nerve, just even mentioning his name.
[00:43:36]  So it was a real like interesting, you know, the differences in the testimony was interesting to me.
[00:43:46]  Yeah.
[00:43:47]  You know, it's, it's, her story too is like, is different than a lot of like the girls that Epstein went after.
[00:43:55]  You know, I think probably the most similar it is in general is to Jane's, which is probably why they essentially had her like basically corro, like this felt like corroborating Jane's testimony, at least in terms of grooming.
[00:44:07]  It definitely was there to like try to show a pattern.
[00:44:13]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:14]  You know?
[00:44:15]  I mean, she, she Met Ghillaine first without Epstein, which is, um, you know, which is obviously different from Jane, uh, when she was 17 in Paris.
[00:44:27]  And she was introduced by her 35-year-old.
[00:44:30]  And they made many references to him.
[00:44:31]  He was left unnamed, but he was called prominent quite a few times, like a wealthy, prominent British man who she was dating.
[00:44:38]  Yeah, so she's introduced to Ghillaine in Paris.
[00:44:41]  This was in 1994.
[00:44:43]  Yeah.
[00:44:45]  She said that she seemed very sophisticated and elegant and impressive, that she was like, oh, she's in her 30s.
[00:44:52]  She's older.
[00:44:52]  It was this like very like, she was really like entranced by her.
[00:44:57]  Yeah, you could tell she was super taken by her.
[00:44:59]  Yeah.
[00:44:59]  She, um, Ghillain eventually invites her to tea at her house.
[00:45:04]  They live in the same neighborhood in London, in Belgravia.
[00:45:06]  Which they described, the defense, I believe, described as Tony.
[00:45:09]  Yes, it's a very posh neighborhood.
[00:45:11]  Yeah.
[00:45:13]  She says, I was quite excited to be friends with her.
[00:45:16]  She seemed to be everything I wanted to be.
[00:45:18]  She seemed to like me.
[00:45:20]  There was something so sad in the way that she talked about this.
[00:45:23]  Yeah.
[00:45:24]  Yeah.
[00:45:24]  She didn't seem like the thing, the thing that really struck me about Victor Nordry, Kate is her sobriquet, or sobriquet, however you pronounce that, is that she really like, she seems like a young girl who is around almost all older people all the time.
[00:45:41]  I mean, fucking 35-year-old boyfriend at 17.
[00:45:45]  Like that, that actually really struck out to me because I'm like, well, isn't that guy guilty of like sex trafficking too?
[00:45:53]  Like, I don't know, you know what I mean?
[00:45:54]  Like, this is like, this guy is as old as Ghillain.
[00:45:59]  But yeah, I mean, it just seemed like she wanted, like, she like really wanted to be part of this adult world.
[00:46:05]  Yeah.
[00:46:06]  So she gets invited over to Ghillain's townhouse in Belgravia.
[00:46:10]  And she was like, there's all these photos everywhere of her and this older guy with gray hair.
[00:46:15]  She comes to find out that's Epstein.
[00:46:17]  She said that in all the photos, he was looking at the camera and she was looking at him.
[00:46:21]  Oh, I wrote, you believe I wrote that.
[00:46:23]  That was really notable.
[00:46:25]  But Ghillain invites her over for tea, which is an echo, a pattern from, of course, what Jane recalled of the first time that Ghillain invited her and her mother over to the Palm Beach mansion for tea.
[00:46:39]  And exactly.
[00:46:40]  And different than a lot of the recruiting strategies we've heard from like other girls who may not be from like as sophisticated backgrounds as these two.
[00:46:47]  You know what I mean?
[00:46:47]  Like that, there's no mention of tea with a lot of the girls that were recruited, especially like the Floridian ones.
[00:46:53]  Yeah, she says, I felt really special.
[00:46:56]  She kind of takes a deep sigh.
[00:46:57]  I felt like I found a new connection that could really be special to me.
[00:47:03]  I felt, I left feeling exhilarated, like somebody wanted me.
[00:47:07]  I mean, it was just like such heartbreaking stuff.
[00:47:11]  You know, she says at the time that she was having a really difficult time with her mother.
[00:47:14]  Her mother was sick.
[00:47:15]  This is again a kind of pattern.
[00:47:16]  You've got, like, you know, a young girl that's a little bit more isolated from her family or, you know, having a fractured relationship.
[00:47:23]  Mother's not paying attention much to her.
[00:47:25]  I mean, it was the same exact thing with Jane.
[00:47:29]  She said that Ghillaine started to tell her things about her boyfriend, that he was this big philanthropist, that, oh my God, he's going to like you so much.
[00:47:35]  You have to come over.
[00:47:36]  You have to meet him.
[00:47:38]  And then there was like a couple, it was like a couple weeks later.
[00:47:43]  She gets a call from Ghillain and she's like, Jeffrey's here.
[00:47:46]  You need to come over.
[00:47:48]  Got to meet him.
[00:47:48]  There's like this sense of urgency.
[00:47:50]  Like, come, come, come.
[00:47:52]  Right, right, right, right now.
[00:47:53]  She says she gets there.
[00:47:54]  He's wearing a sweatsuit.
[00:47:56]  He's like sitting in a chair.
[00:47:57]  He's on the phone, sitting in his like, probably little St. James branded sweatsuit.
[00:48:03]  Undoubtedly.
[00:48:04]  Yeah.
[00:48:04]  I mean, the man.
[00:48:05]  Although, actually, I believe this was before he purchased Silent, but maybe not.
[00:48:09]  Maybe just his JE pre-logo.
[00:48:12]  And Ghillaine's like, Jeffrey, this is the girl I told you about.
[00:48:16]  She's strangely strong for her size.
[00:48:20]  Yeah.
[00:48:21]  She says that she was like 95 pounds at the time.
[00:48:23]  And by the way, I want to say that this girl, who we find out through her testimony, is also a model and has like dabbled in acting or whatever, is gorgeous.
[00:48:31]  Yeah.
[00:48:32]  I mean, she's like, I was shocked when she said her age, too.
[00:48:36]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:48:37]  She's strikingly beautiful.
[00:48:40]  Yeah, just like, yeah, stunning woman.
[00:48:45]  So she says, you know, she's strangely strong for her size.
[00:48:48]  Why don't you give him a little squeeze to show him like how strong you are?
[00:48:55]  Or no, she says, why don't you give his feet a little squeeze?
[00:48:58]  Yeah.
[00:48:59]  And so she doesn't know what to do.
[00:49:00]  So she starts like rubbing his feet.
[00:49:03]  And he's like, oh, okay, you can go ahead and massage my neck now.
[00:49:07]  And so she like starts rubbing his shoulders and his neck.
[00:49:10]  He's like, oh, yeah, you're very strong.
[00:49:13]  You know, I like, you know, I like that you know what you like, that you know what you want, all this kind of stuff.
[00:49:18]  And then something happens and Epstein gets on the phone.
[00:49:22]  She gets kind of ushered out by Ghillain.
[00:49:25]  A couple weeks later, Ghillain calls her and says, Kate, Jeffrey was supposed to get a massage, but the therapist canceled.
[00:49:36]  And he really needs a massage.
[00:49:38]  Can you come over?
[00:49:40]  Because you have such strong hands.
[00:49:42]  Yeah.
[00:49:43]  Yeah.
[00:49:43]  I mean, this is just completely insane.
[00:49:45]  Insane thing to say to like a 17-year-old girl.
[00:49:47]  And like, obviously, the question, you know, comes up as, well, if the guy wanted a massage so bad, why didn't he just get another masseuse?
[00:49:55]  Well, it was really upsetting too when, and then, you know, the AUSA is like, did you go over there?
[00:50:03]  And Kate is like in a really hushed, almost like she's so embarrassed, she doesn't want to say it.
[00:50:09]  She's like, yes.
[00:50:10]  Yeah.
[00:50:11]  And she said that, You know, Ghillaine told her, you know, Jeffrey has needs massages all the time.
[00:50:18]  It's just so difficult to keep up with all his needs.
[00:50:21]  And so she gets there and to Ghelane's house.
[00:50:25]  And again, this is Ghillaine's townhouse.
[00:50:27]  There's a massage table up in this small room.
[00:50:31]  There's towels and like massage oil.
[00:50:36]  Jeffrey is in the room.
[00:50:37]  He's in a robe.
[00:50:40]  And she walks up.
[00:50:41]  Ghelane is like standing in the doorway behind her, basically.
[00:50:46]  Jeffrey like drops the robe, gets on the table, and Ghelane leaves.
[00:50:51]  Then something happens that was not described in the testimony, but they describe it as, did sexual contact occur?
[00:50:58]  Did sexual, you know, something sexual happened?
[00:51:02]  Did Epstein initiate it also?
[00:51:05]  And she says yes.
[00:51:07]  She says after it ended, that she's walking down the stairs and she sees Ghillain and Ghelane says, how did it go?
[00:51:14]  Did you have fun?
[00:51:15]  Was it good?
[00:51:18]  Which is just such a horrifying, horrifying image.
[00:51:22]  I don't know.
[00:51:23]  I don't know if you noticed, but she's asked what Ghillaine said after each of her encounters with Epstein.
[00:51:27]  And the constant in all three of those was, did you have a good time?
[00:51:33]  Yes.
[00:51:33]  Which is, I mean, yeah, did you have fun?
[00:51:36]  You're such a good girl.
[00:51:37]  He obviously likes you a lot.
[00:51:39]  Yeah.
[00:51:40]  Yeah.
[00:51:40]  Just like really, really sick shit.
[00:51:42]  I had a really, you saw me.
[00:51:44]  I had a really hard time during this testimony.
[00:51:49]  So this basically, you know, continues.
[00:51:53]  And this goes on in Kate's life until she in her 30s.
[00:51:59]  Yeah.
[00:52:00]  I mean, she mentions, so her contact with Epstein, sort of, I mean, at first, it seems like she, she follows a sort of similar pattern to a lot of these girls where she's kind of like joins them in these different places.
[00:52:10]  She sees a blonde, slim girl her age in a house in Belgravia.
[00:52:15]  You know, she's like an Epstein teen girl, but her relationship, you know, continues with him.
[00:52:22]  And that, that was a, was a big thing that the defense brought up a lot.
[00:52:26]  Yeah.
[00:52:27]  Because, you know, she did have this.
[00:52:29]  I mean, she, she makes mention that her sexual contact with him stopped around a certain age, but her actual like other kind of contact with him continues after that.
[00:52:39]  Yeah, I think until I think that was like when around like 24, 25.
[00:52:43]  So from 17 to 24, it was pretty regular.
[00:52:48]  At one point, Ghillain asked her to start recruiting girls.
[00:52:50]  She said, you know what he likes, cute, young, pretty, girls like you.
[00:52:54]  Yeah.
[00:52:54]  And she says she did not, that she never connected Maxwell with anyone that she knew and that she felt, she felt really like sick about that.
[00:53:01]  Well, I think one of the most effective things that came out of this testimony too, just in terms of purely legally in this case, was her description.
[00:53:10]  She did a really good description.
[00:53:13]  She described really well how Ghelane groomed, essentially.
[00:53:17]  And this I found was really indicative of that.
[00:53:21]  She says that to Ghelane, like everything in terms of talking about sex, everything was fun, silly, and exciting, like a joke.
[00:53:27]  So you can clearly imagine that.
[00:53:30]  I mean, that is, that is like, you know, this older woman who you think is so cool is like putting you in this entirely inappropriate situation with this older guy who is, you know, committing from what I understand.
[00:53:43]  I mean, I, I, you know, it's her name is anonymous in this, but there has been reporting, quite a lot of reporting on what happened to her.
[00:53:50]  And from what I understand, might have been much more than like the sexualized massages, too.
[00:53:55]  Oh, I mean, it's fully rape.
[00:53:56]  I've seen raped her not always in the context of the massages either.
[00:54:01]  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:54:03]  Um, but that wasn't like really able to be talked about in her testimony.
[00:54:07]  And so there was a lot of like really weird talk.
[00:54:09]  Not, I guess, not weird, but in the, in, in, it was, there were some big holes essentially missing from this.
[00:54:16]  Um, and yeah, I mean, it was clear that she had a lot of like a shame around this.
[00:54:23]  And she talked about, um, I mean, take it in context of the rest of this, this, this woman's life, too, it's like it really sort of like hits home, you know?
[00:54:33]  I mean, she talks about her drug addiction and alcohol addiction.
[00:54:35]  And that was something that we talked about in the Twin Torpedoes episode.
[00:54:39]  It's actually not, I don't think, who we thought it was from that episode.
[00:54:43]  Um, the, the, the, it's not who we thought it was, essentially, like, because there were some leaks to um, I think it was the Telegraph or The Times in the UK, essentially saying that the woman who is minor victim number three was part of the um this sting operation by News of the World, which I think she was, but she wasn't the person involved in it that we thought she was.
[00:55:06]  Um, but it talked about her struggles with alcohol and cocaine and sleeping pills.
[00:55:11]  Um, and you know, it's clearly like clear that that's related, maybe not even just to Epstein, but in the entire milieu that she was in, because she was a really young model.
[00:55:20]  And she's actually given a lot of interviews talking about how awful the modeling world is.
[00:55:26]  I mean, she has some really like very direct quotes about that stuff.
[00:55:32]  Uh, and uh, and I think like that, that Epstein was unfortunately like not just a totality of that, but one piece of sort of the world that this girl was thrust into.

=== Ghillaine's Testimony (12:24) ===

[00:55:43]  Yeah, I mean, there was a lot to her testimony.
[00:55:45]  At one point, she talks about the time that she was invited to the island.
[00:55:52]  Yep.
[00:55:53]  Um, she says that she stayed with them, she always referred to it as them, at their house.
[00:56:01]  And um, that sometimes she would see staff, but not usually.
[00:56:06]  She said there was lots of photographs of young girls so young that she found them shocking.
[00:56:11]  Yeah.
[00:56:11]  Which was an interesting detail in almost every room.
[00:56:14]  She said that she shows up to the house in Palm Beach.
[00:56:18]  Excuse me, this is in Palm Beach, not on the island, although she was also raped on the island.
[00:56:24]  And on the bed in the room that she was like given to stay in was a schoolgirl outfit.
[00:56:31]  And she says that, you know, at this point, look, I mean, her voice is like very hushed.
[00:56:37]  Yeah.
[00:56:37]  She is very clearly, like visibly embarrassed talking about this.
[00:56:41]  It's very difficult for her to get through this testimony.
[00:56:45]  And at one point, she even says, like, other than the things that I talked about in the testimony today, this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
[00:56:52]  Yeah.
[00:56:53]  She says that it was a short pleated skirt, white socks, white panties.
[00:56:57]  It was laying on the bed and Ghillane said, I thought it would be fun for you to take Jeffrey his tea in this outfit.
[00:57:05]  And they asked her if she did.
[00:57:08]  And she's, again, like very ashamed and says yes.
[00:57:13]  And she said that, and you know, and this is, this comes up over and over again, but she said, I didn't know how to say no to that because I'm in Palm Beach.
[00:57:21]  I don't know anybody here.
[00:57:22]  I don't know if I say no, are they going to kick me out?
[00:57:25]  And then who do I call?
[00:57:26]  How do I get home?
[00:57:28]  Like, I don't feel safe.
[00:57:29]  I'm not sure what will happen to me or what the kind of consequences will be if I say no.
[00:57:36]  She, you know, again, after her encounter in the schoolgirl outfit with Jeffrey, rape, Ghillane asks her, did you have fun?
[00:57:44]  She told me that I was such a good girl and I was one of his favorites.
[00:57:48]  I mean, the whole thing is just, it was really, really powerful.
[00:57:54]  I have to say, it was really, really, really powerful.
[00:57:59]  And I don't think, I mean, we talked about this a little bit on our breaks today, Brace, but like the cross-examination, I don't think was very good.
[00:58:08]  No, no, Bobby was up to bat today.
[00:58:10]  And I got to say, she fucking, I mean, honestly, she whiffed it because this was, like Liz said, really, really powerful testimony here.
[00:58:20]  And there was sort of like the aggressive way that they came at Jane, I think they were like, we can't do that this time.
[00:58:28]  Like it won't work.
[00:58:30]  And so they came at her.
[00:58:31]  I noticed that Bobby was like, hey, how are you?
[00:58:33]  You know, good, you know, good afternoon.
[00:58:35]  Like, gave those introductions, which they haven't been doing for a lot of the more hostile cross-examination here.
[00:58:42]  But it was, I knew how it was going to be focused because they'd sort of telegraphed that, no pun intended, in also either the telegraph or the times, but they floated that article, right?
[00:58:53]  Talking about the drug, the past drug addiction.
[00:58:55]  Yeah.
[00:58:56]  They're basically like, you're a drug addict, you're a whore, you wanted it, you're a slut, all of its transactional.
[00:59:01]  I mean, it was like textbook defense, like smearing a like sexual assault victim.
[00:59:08]  Yeah.
[00:59:09]  Almost like cartoonish even.
[00:59:11]  Yeah.
[00:59:13]  And basically she talks about, I mean, she brings up just like sort of very similar to the Jane cross-examination, like, oh, so you're a model.
[00:59:24]  Like, oh, you knew this person.
[00:59:25]  Oh, you knew this person.
[00:59:26]  And like, none of that actually goes anywhere, but she's sort of just throwing it all out there, trying to like give this other, like, this isn't such an innocent girl.
[00:59:35]  Like, this is actually international sex plot.
[00:59:37]  But a lot of that really backboards, so backfires.
[00:59:39]  So she's, at one point, she says, you were on billboards as a, as a model.
[00:59:44]  And she said, a billboard.
[00:59:47]  Yeah, she was very careful with her testimony.
[00:59:49]  Exactly.
[00:59:49]  And she's like, well, you were in the UK, you were a model for the UK equivalent of Victoria's Secret.
[00:59:57]  And she was like, what?
[00:59:58]  Like, no, she's like, I was an underwear lingerie model for a company that folded about immediately as it started.
[01:00:04]  And so it was like all of these things.
[01:00:06]  At one point, she brings up her IMDB, which I've looked at and I can understand her confusion because it's clearly not the IMDb page of a famous actress.
[01:00:14]  And she's like, do you remember being in this movie?
[01:00:16]  Do you remember?
[01:00:16]  And she's like, I wasn't in that movie.
[01:00:18]  I've never heard of that movie.
[01:00:20]  And like only, I think there was maybe one or two that she actually recognized.
[01:00:24]  And it's like Bobby bringing up, if you're bringing up their fucking IMDB page like that early, which she also kept calling it like IMBD, it's like.
[01:00:32]  Oh, I know.
[01:00:33]  And then I wrote it down.
[01:00:34]  I wrote it wrong in my notes because of that.
[01:00:35]  I did too.
[01:00:36]  Yeah.
[01:00:36]  And I was like, wait, she said it wrong.
[01:00:38]  Interestingly enough, like Jane, she was also in a reality show, which gave me a weird depersonalization.
[01:00:46]  Yeah, that is.
[01:00:48]  The thing that the defense was really notable about this, because in previous testimony that people gave, when they'd found that people had contradicted themselves, they would like bring, they would enter into evidence, like, or, you know, at least bring up times that they had contradicted themselves.
[01:01:03]  But with the defense here, they just seemingly had a bunch of stuff actually wrong.
[01:01:08]  And so, you know, they sort of try to talk about her.
[01:01:11]  She had a sober home at one point that in LA that went under.
[01:01:15]  And like, they kept bringing that up, but it never went anywhere.
[01:01:19]  Like, it was just, it was, like, that's the thing.
[01:01:22]  It was really meandering.
[01:01:23]  And they tried exactly all the tricks that they're going to try with all the girls, but especially these first two.
[01:01:28]  They said, you're after money and you're a whore.
[01:01:31]  And I mean, they didn't say those things directly.
[01:01:33]  Well, the money thing they said pretty directly, but it really, it didn't go anywhere.
[01:01:37]  And I got to say, like, everybody I talked to, you know, the consensus was like the defense really, like, they fucked this one, you know?
[01:01:45]  Yeah, I want to like, we got to wrap up soon.
[01:01:47]  So, but before we do that, I want to like pull back for a second and kind of take stock of where just like kind of how we're feeling about the trial in general, because I feel like the defense is a fucking like disaster.
[01:02:03]  Yeah.
[01:02:04]  Like it is a fucking mess.
[01:02:06]  I mean, which, I mean, you know how I feel about that personally.
[01:02:10]  Yeah.
[01:02:10]  But I mean, like.
[01:02:13]  It's like they can't decide on their story and they don't have a story to communicate.
[01:02:18]  And I have some suspicions about why that is, which we can get to.
[01:02:22]  But it's like they want to say all of these things that contradict each other.
[01:02:27]  So they want to say, okay, you're trying Ghillain as Jeffrey.
[01:02:32]  You can't do that.
[01:02:33]  You're trying her for his crimes.
[01:02:35]  But also, Ghillane was under the spell of Jeffrey.
[01:02:38]  So she's the victim.
[01:02:39]  But also, she didn't commit the crimes because actually Jeffrey committed them.
[01:02:44]  But also, she didn't know about the crimes because there were no crimes because these women were whores who were lying.
[01:02:52]  Every single one of those defenses contradicts itself.
[01:02:55]  Or this one is amazing.
[01:02:56]  Oh, I couldn't have committed those crimes because they weren't crimes because actually that girl's not under the age of consent in the state that I brought her to.
[01:03:04]  Yeah.
[01:03:04]  So I know, which says then, so you did bring her, but it's just that she wasn't.
[01:03:08]  And so you have a pattern of having sex with teenagers with Jeffrey Epstein, which is the entire thing that you're trying to say that you don't do.
[01:03:14]  Yeah.
[01:03:14]  So it doesn't make any sense, right?
[01:03:17]  And I think that like that really boils down to the fact that Ghillaine as a person believes that she has done nothing wrong.
[01:03:25]  100%.
[01:03:26]  And she believes she's going to get off.
[01:03:28]  Yeah.
[01:03:28]  And I really don't think she is.
[01:03:30]  No.
[01:03:30]  Like, I have to say, I was unsure going into this after Jane.
[01:03:34]  And I was like, where are they going?
[01:03:36]  And I felt like, you know, I could kind of see what the defense is going to try and do.
[01:03:41]  I literally do, I have no clue what their fucking plan is.
[01:03:45]  Me either.
[01:03:46]  It doesn't seem like they do either.
[01:03:47]  I know that the judge instructed the jury that they can't convict based on Kate's testimony.
[01:03:52]  It doesn't fucking matter.
[01:03:53]  They fucking still heard it.
[01:03:54]  They heard it.
[01:03:55]  It was so affecting.
[01:03:56]  Like, I'm telling you guys, like, it was raw.
[01:04:01]  It was, you could see this woman was so deeply ashamed and humiliated about what has been the majority of her life with this man and this woman.
[01:04:14]  And like the technicalities of it not being a crime in the eyes of this case, like do not fucking matter.
[01:04:21]  Like it was, it's the kind of testimony that you hear and it makes you angry.
[01:04:25]  Like I was, I, you know, I heard Jane's testimony and I was like, this is upsetting.
[01:04:31]  This is difficult.
[01:04:32]  This is like, like a lot of the girls that we've heard from, this is very, you know, moving.
[01:04:39]  This was like, I'm angry.
[01:04:41]  You made her wear a fucking schoolgirl outfit and get on her knees.
[01:04:48]  And she couldn't leave because she was so fucking afraid.
[01:04:50]  Didn't know it in Florida, didn't know what to do.
[01:04:52]  Exactly, yeah.
[01:04:53]  And so I was just thinking about that.
[01:04:55]  And, you know, that brings me then to what is now the million-dollar question that keeps me up at night, which is, is Ghelane going on the stand?
[01:05:04]  I don't know.
[01:05:05]  I don't know.
[01:05:05]  I think that is, that is a true like wildcard coin toss.
[01:05:09]  I don't know.
[01:05:10]  So it's a Hail Mary.
[01:05:11]  The thing is, is that typical defense strategy says you don't do that.
[01:05:17]  You don't do that.
[01:05:18]  Because your guy, because the thing is, everybody contradicts themselves.
[01:05:21]  Most people suck on the stand.
[01:05:23]  And you don't want your guy going up there and be like, well, I don't know.
[01:05:25]  I think I didn't shoot him.
[01:05:28]  So the thing is, ladies and germs, we live in atypical times.
[01:05:33]  Yeah.
[01:05:34]  It has actually become a kind of weird trend as of recent to put obviously guilty people on the stand.
[01:05:44]  Yeah.
[01:05:44]  Yeah.
[01:05:45]  Elizabeth Holmes just took the stand.
[01:05:47]  And when you think of people who are so fucking narcissistic and delusional that they think they're innocent, you think, hey, Elizabeth Holmes is like that Ghillaine Maxwell lady.
[01:05:56]  Exactly.
[01:05:58]  So I don't know.
[01:05:58]  I don't know if they'll put her on.
[01:05:59]  I could also see Ghelane being so delusional that she thinks like I'm charming enough that I could do it.
[01:06:04]  I just had to clear all this up.
[01:06:06]  But I'm like.
[01:06:07]  Honestly, that's what I would do.
[01:06:08]  I'd be like, you know what?
[01:06:09]  Let me talk to these people.
[01:06:11]  I can totally fix it.
[01:06:12]  I'm never letting you go on this.
[01:06:13]  The shoe bomb.
[01:06:14]  I mean, it was a prank.
[01:06:15]  I mean, come on.
[01:06:16]  You can put a bomb on a shoe.
[01:06:18]  The thing is, like, I think that it wouldn't work.
[01:06:23]  No.
[01:06:24]  I don't think it's going to work either.
[01:06:26]  Because also, I'll be real, the optics of this old, nasty lady.
[01:06:30]  But not just old, nasty, fucking rich.
[01:06:33]  Like, I was thinking about that so much when we were looking at the photos of that fucking disgusting, horrifying townhouse.
[01:06:42]  And it was just like, look, this, we're not in, you know, some pot.
[01:06:47]  Look, it's New York City.
[01:06:48]  These are, we've got a jury of everyman.
[01:06:51]  Yeah.
[01:06:51]  Like, you're literally looking.
[01:06:53]  We had a fucking JP Morgan guy up there.
[01:06:55]  We didn't even talk about today because it was so fucking mind-numbing going over the millions and millions of dollars that were being moved between.
[01:07:02]  Well, now that I say it like this, it sounds interesting, but it really wasn't.
[01:07:05]  Well, it wasn't.
[01:07:06]  I mean, there was the only really interesting thing was that there's about the air Ghelane thing.
[01:07:11]  Yeah, but you know, they're talking about moving literally like 18, 17, 18 million dollars between Jeffrey and Ghelane's accounts.
[01:07:18]  Like we're talking about these mega wealthy people.
[01:07:22]  And, you know, you have this fucking rich lady on there explaining why you should believe her and not this like crying woman who's so ashamed that she needs to be anonymous because she doesn't want her daughter knowing that she fucking wore a schoolgirl outfit to Like when she was like raped by this old billionaire.
[01:07:43]  Like it's, it's, you know what I mean?
[01:07:45]  Like, I don't know.
[01:07:47]  I think that like we haven't talked about this kind of stuff in a long time, but there is this weird, like, this weird like esoteric aspect to this that I was thinking about a lot.
[01:08:00]  Where in both testimonies, you know, there's this weird like tea ceremony that happens.

=== Ritualized Sexual Massage (01:13) ===

[01:08:07]  Yeah.
[01:08:08]  There's this like weird kind of perverse sacrament almost in this like ritualized like sexual massage that he demands three times a day, as we heard today in testimony.
[01:08:23]  Like there, and it happens in this manner and these estates that are maintained with these special rooms and all of these rules that everyone has to, and everyone falls under his spell.
[01:08:36]  And it's all to like bring him to this is disgusting, I'm so sorry, but completion.
[01:08:41]  But there is this sort of like, you know, it's the ritualized aspect and this kind of cultish practice.
[01:08:50]  It feels like a practice that we're watching occur when they pick these girls that they're in sacrificed into this practice.
[01:08:57]  And it's just completely and totally unnerving.
[01:09:01]  And it's so intimately intertwined with the obscene and insane wealth of these people.
[01:09:08]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:09:09]  Well, we'll pick right up again tomorrow then.
[01:09:12]  Yeah, you know, we'll be right back at it.
[01:09:14]  I'm Liz.
[01:09:14]  My name is Jesse Theranos.
[01:09:16]  We are joined by producer Young Chomsky and the podcast is called Truanon.
[01:09:20]  We'll see you next time.