True Anon Truth Feed - 👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 4 👁️
Aired: 2021-12-03
Duration: 51:57


=== Day of the Soldado (05:47) ===

[00:00:00]  Welcome to day four of the Ghanaian Maxwell trial.
[00:00:04]  And Liz, check this out.
[00:00:05]  Let's get Juan with it.
[00:00:07]  Oh, I don't like that at all.
[00:00:25]  Would you like if I did things like that a little lassie?
[00:00:30]  Horrible.
[00:00:31]  Little lessy that I'm doing now.
[00:00:33]  Hello, everyone.
[00:00:34]  Hello.
[00:00:35]  You know what was stuck in my head today was Ghillain Maxwell trial, Day of the Soledado.
[00:00:41]  Soledado?
[00:00:42]  Isn't that what it is?
[00:00:43]  It's like you've never even seen Day of the Salt.
[00:00:46]  I haven't either, but I've had a lot of Days of the Soldado.
[00:00:50]  Oh, Soldado.
[00:00:51]  Soldado.
[00:00:52]  I don't know.
[00:00:52]  Yeah.
[00:00:53]  Actually, that is what I said, but I just said it in the weird Liz way.
[00:00:56]  It means bodybuilder in Spanish.
[00:00:58]  Really?
[00:00:59]  Yeah.
[00:00:59]  No, it means soldier.
[00:01:02]  Does it?
[00:01:02]  I felt like there was Ejerito or whatever.
[00:01:04]  I don't know.
[00:01:06]  What the fuck?
[00:01:07]  Hello.
[00:01:07]  I'm Liz.
[00:01:08]  My name is Brace.
[00:01:10]  And we are joined, of course, by our Spanish-speaking producer, Young Chomsky.
[00:01:14]  And the podcast is called Truanon.
[00:01:17]  Truanon.
[00:01:17]  Hello.
[00:01:18]  We just got done, like I said, with Ghelane Maxwell trial day four.
[00:01:25]  We got out.
[00:01:26]  This is, we're doing it quick.
[00:01:28]  We've only been out for half an hour.
[00:01:29]  Alice and Nathan let us go 15 minutes early.
[00:01:33]  Oh, yeah, true, actually.
[00:01:34]  We have been out for a little longer because you know, we're becoming a real tight-knit crew in there, I gotta say.
[00:01:39]  I did have a little vision.
[00:01:41]  Don't get mad at me, but I had a little vision of us like maybe pulling together and doing a secret Santa.
[00:01:47]  Okay, wow.
[00:01:48]  You know, 99% of the people are.
[00:01:51]  Look, it's not about that.
[00:01:53]  It's just for, it's for cheer and for spreading holiday joy, which is universal.
[00:01:59]  $4.
[00:02:00]  Also, maybe I will be bringing Christmas cookies in a couple weeks.
[00:02:03]  I will.
[00:02:03]  You better.
[00:02:05]  You know who would like those Christmas cookies?
[00:02:07]  What?
[00:02:07]  Our friends, the U.S. Marshals.
[00:02:09]  They would.
[00:02:09]  I am, I got to say, charming the pants off them.
[00:02:12]  Oh, I am becoming another case here.
[00:02:16]  I'm just saying.
[00:02:18]  Yeah, no, I would, there was that Marshal we were talking to earlier.
[00:02:22]  Before we begin, too, I want to say a couple things about, we were talking about the guy about representing yourself.
[00:02:29]  Oh, this is so great.
[00:02:32]  Me and this guy, Jacob, were standing outside the hallway earlier today, and a guy comes up to us with a ponytail and a thick New York accent.
[00:02:38]  It's like, where's the, I'm not even going to try to do the accent, but he's like, where's the pro se office?
[00:02:43]  Uh-huh.
[00:02:44]  And I got it.
[00:02:45]  But like, thick New York accent.
[00:02:46]  Thick.
[00:02:47]  Yeah.
[00:02:47]  He's like, where's the pro se office?
[00:02:49]  And headed to Alba.
[00:02:50]  Now, to be clear, he's pro se means when you represent yourself, not the protejia.
[00:02:58]  Proseja.
[00:02:59]  Yeah, Pro-sexual assault.
[00:03:03]  Yeah, no, he was looking for the office in which to represent himself, which actually was just down the hall, the opposite direction.
[00:03:08]  I found out later.
[00:03:09]  Yeah.
[00:03:10]  And we kind of soy-faced because we were like, it's like, bro, you're representing yourself in federal court?
[00:03:16]  I'm like, that's honestly fucking much respect.
[00:03:20]  Yeah.
[00:03:20]  For sure.
[00:03:22]  But, but we talked to that marshal later.
[00:03:24]  We were like, he was cool.
[00:03:25]  He said that more people do it than you'd think.
[00:03:28]  But he'd only seen it work once.
[00:03:29]  Which, and I was like, whoa, you've seen it work once.
[00:03:32]  Like, when did it, like, what happened?
[00:03:34]  And he goes, oh, it was a case against a landlord.
[00:03:36]  And we all kind of had this moment of like, yeah, that's how it should be.
[00:03:40]  Yeah.
[00:03:41]  You should win against landlords.
[00:03:42]  And the guy, the marshal, was like, oh, yeah.
[00:03:44]  And it was really cute.
[00:03:45]  He also had a very thick New York accent.
[00:03:47]  All of the accents of the U.S. Marshals, I find very charming.
[00:03:50]  Yeah, me too.
[00:03:51]  I was intimidated at first, but then I hooked up with one and I've just been fucking getting the insane.
[00:03:56]  Before we get to a little run-through of the day's activities, I want to, I saw that someone in the old Patreon comments that I don't look at, but let's assume for hypothetical reasons that I did.
[00:04:13]  That someone was asking for a little bit of a Ghelane update in terms of outfitting.
[00:04:17]  Now, perfect day to do that.
[00:04:21]  We're going to start from top to bottom, head to toe, which we can't see.
[00:04:27]  So really, we're just going from head to the bottom of the sweater.
[00:04:30]  Now, Ghelane has, like we've mentioned, she got a haircut.
[00:04:35]  Yes.
[00:04:35]  Right?
[00:04:36]  Yeah.
[00:04:36]  She cut her own hair, I think.
[00:04:37]  Yeah, I think that's her only option.
[00:04:39]  Yeah.
[00:04:40]  All girls.
[00:04:41]  Commissary scissors.
[00:04:42]  Yeah.
[00:04:43]  No, so she's got kind of what we'd call a mid-2010s lob that has today, and this is to my lady listeners out there, kind of an extreme side part.
[00:04:56]  A la Emily Weiss, circa 2013, when everyone was bleaching.
[00:05:02]  She has not bleached.
[00:05:04]  Yeah, they'll know.
[00:05:05]  They'll know.
[00:05:06]  And you know what?
[00:05:06]  When you do, give me a shout out that you got it.
[00:05:09]  Go on.
[00:05:10]  What else was she wearing?
[00:05:11]  She had a big chunky black turtleneck.
[00:05:13]  The girl loves a chunky knit.
[00:05:17]  Big black turtleneck.
[00:05:18]  But so the effect of this with the extreme side part of the hair and the chunky black sweater plus the black mask.
[00:05:29]  My girl looked like she was wearing a burqa today.
[00:05:32]  Liz isn't just saying that.
[00:05:34]  No, I literally wrote looks burqa-esque.
[00:05:37]  Yes.
[00:05:37]  Like I had just, I was kind of up there talking to someone remarking about how it looked like a burqa.
[00:05:43]  I walk all the way back over to Liz.
[00:05:45]  She couldn't hear us.
[00:05:46]  Walk all the way back over to Liz.

=== Paul's Burqa Comment (03:52) ===

[00:05:48]  I'm like, doesn't it kind of look like Elaine?
[00:05:50]  Ghelane's wearing a burqa.
[00:05:52]  And Liz just points to her notebook where she'd just written, she's in a burka.
[00:05:56]  I know.
[00:05:56]  We're some patico.
[00:05:57]  You know what?
[00:05:57]  You know what we call that?
[00:05:59]  What?
[00:06:00]  Rapport.
[00:06:01]  Well, my thing is, my thing is, I actually picked up on, I think she's actually, she might have the record for world's fastest jailhouse conversion to Islam.
[00:06:13]  She's trying to, yeah, she's, she's going it.
[00:06:15]  She's getting in there.
[00:06:17]  But yeah, I drew a picture of it, which is, it unfortunately just looks like the little, the, that, like, children's game Among Us.
[00:06:26]  It looks like one of those characters.
[00:06:28]  It's, you'll, you'd recognize it if you saw.
[00:06:30]  I drew this and I was like, what does this look like?
[00:06:31]  I'm like, oh, it looks like that.
[00:06:32]  So.
[00:06:33]  Video game?
[00:06:34]  It's like a mobile game, I think.
[00:06:36]  No, it's like on the computer, too.
[00:06:40]  But it's very popular.
[00:06:42]  So the day started off with some real boring shit.
[00:06:45]  There was a guy that was called to the stand.
[00:06:50]  Let me pull up his name, Paul Kame.
[00:06:53]  You wrote down his name?
[00:06:54]  See, this is a guy.
[00:06:56]  Look, here's the thing.
[00:06:57]  If I knew what was coming, I shouldn't have written down his name.
[00:07:00]  But I didn't know.
[00:07:01]  So you always write down the name.
[00:07:02]  Yeah, I usually do.
[00:07:03]  I actually did not.
[00:07:04]  Well, Paul came and went because this was real boring.
[00:07:07]  He was the professional children's school director of finance.
[00:07:13]  Well, he is one of a pair of witnesses, including one from last night, who was the, I think, interlock-in admissions director at one point during minor victim number one's tenure there.
[00:07:26]  And he was preceded by her ex-boyfriend, a handsome fella.
[00:07:32]  And basically, all of them were kind of put up there by the prosecution very briefly to essentially corroborate her story.
[00:07:37]  Yeah, totally.
[00:07:38]  Paul Kame was up there doing the same.
[00:07:41]  And it was all based on basically, you know, financial records that they had of her application to the professionals children's school and seeing if it had any mention of Jeffrey Epstein paying.
[00:07:52]  It did, but via like a handwritten application that a child filled out or a child's mother or guardian filled out.
[00:08:01]  But they didn't actually have any financial receipts.
[00:08:05]  Yes, and the defense was like, so you don't, you couldn't find the financial records of Jeffrey Epstein actually paying.
[00:08:10]  And the guy was like, no.
[00:08:12]  Yeah.
[00:08:12]  And so, yeah, I mean, they were like, well, who knows if he actually did it then?
[00:08:17]  Which, you know, they're doing their job, but it, I, I, again, probably not very, not as convincing as having a guy be like, yeah, he said he was going to pay for it.
[00:08:25]  Yeah.
[00:08:26]  And I wrote down here, Allison Nathan is sipping the tea, which she was.
[00:08:31]  She was enjoying a nice hot cup of tea.
[00:08:34]  Yeah, she was kind of, she was actually, she was acting a little out of pocket today.
[00:08:37]  Yeah, she got a little snippy.
[00:08:38]  Well, rightly so.
[00:08:40]  Well, after that was, and I was actually really surprised by this because I, as, as actually, I don't even know if I've said this in the show, but I've said this several times to people in my life and at the courtroom that I'm dreading the sort of war of the expert witnesses.
[00:08:56]  Is you say this four times a day, fucking dude.
[00:08:59]  Because did you see a preview of what happened today?
[00:09:02]  Yeah, I found it interesting.
[00:09:04]  For the what, the first, I mean, yeah, okay.
[00:09:07]  So let's, we can, we're not really going to get into what she actually talked about today, but she was the, because this is going to come up later in the trial more in depth.
[00:09:17]  But the defense, or excuse me, the prosecution brought out Dr. Lisa Rokchio.
[00:09:21]  Lisa Rokio, which sounds to me, that's Rokio sounds like a 90s board game that like mid-30s swingers would play.
[00:09:33]  Yes.
[00:09:33]  You know what I mean?
[00:09:34]  Not firsthand.
[00:09:36]  It would be like a like, what was the one called like Taboo?
[00:09:39]  Do you remember that?

=== Dr. Lisa Rokchio (14:58) ===

[00:09:40]  No.
[00:09:40]  And it had like a cut.
[00:09:41]  Look, my man knows.
[00:09:42]  I'm looking at him smiling.
[00:09:43]  He's laughing.
[00:09:43]  You guys run into each other at these parties?
[00:09:45]  No, they would always be like, it's just like a late 80s.
[00:09:49]  Early 90s, like adult board game vibe.
[00:09:53]  Yeah.
[00:09:54]  Like they tried to make like pictionary for they'd be like, oh, anyway, they'd be like, oh, it's a new game called Rokio.
[00:09:59]  And it would have like a kind of like jazzy logo.
[00:10:03]  Yeah.
[00:10:04]  Look at he's she's looking at him.
[00:10:06]  You got to look at this is looking at the what?
[00:10:09]  I'm looking where I'm getting some feedback here, and he's giggling.
[00:10:12]  Yeah.
[00:10:12]  Giggling like a little girl.
[00:10:13]  So that's what this key bowl that you have here is about.
[00:10:17]  Understood.
[00:10:19]  So they had her up there.
[00:10:21]  And again, well, you know, like we talked about, I think even before, and actually, I know even before we started covering the trial, is that, or at least covering the trial in person, is that there is going to be a lot of talk about grooming.
[00:10:37]  And this was they're calling Vausch to the stand.
[00:10:43]  No, they are not.
[00:10:44]  But there is going to be a lot of sort of, and again, there is no legal definition of grooming.
[00:10:50]  And so that is going to be a very contentious sort of topic because that is a pretty big centerpiece of what's going on here.
[00:10:55]  We are going to do much more on that when we actually get to Christ.
[00:11:01]  I wrote grooming insane looking there.
[00:11:03]  I label every page of notes I take.
[00:11:06]  And sometimes during the day, I start drawing them like punk band logos.
[00:11:12]  Oh my God.
[00:11:12]  And so it's, yeah.
[00:11:14]  See, I go back through during breaks and highlight the points that I want to make on the podcast.
[00:11:18]  I wrote a highlighter so that I keep in my little pencil case.
[00:11:22]  I wrote a guide to jeweling in federal court.
[00:11:25]  Yeah, I think you should post that.
[00:11:27]  I will, but I'm afraid to post it now in case the court sees it and catches.
[00:11:32]  Like, I literally, I lay out there.
[00:11:33]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:33]  Just put a guide to jeweling in redacted.
[00:11:37]  Plus, a couple of, I can be real with you.
[00:11:38]  Well, I'd say it's in pig Latin.
[00:11:40]  That'll fool him.
[00:11:41]  I'll be real with you.
[00:11:43]  A couple of young guns came up to me yesterday, I guess, and offered me a hit of their caffeine spray for their mouth.
[00:11:54]  I don't like that.
[00:11:55]  I did it.
[00:11:55]  It was, that tasted disgusting.
[00:11:57]  I don't like that.
[00:11:57]  Got me a little jelly.
[00:11:58]  I like these like weird off-brand products they sell at Bodega's.
[00:12:01]  Yeah, I know.
[00:12:02]  I've been buying this stuff from this guy near where I'm staying, which is like it.
[00:12:06]  He's like, it's energy stuff, but it's in this like little bag.
[00:12:10]  And I have to use like this crazy stem to smoke it.
[00:12:14]  It's insane.
[00:12:14]  All right, all right, all right.
[00:12:15]  But they had heard me on the show say that, you know, I've been, well, I'm not going to talk about anymore, but I maybe hit the jewel once or twice in a courthouse.
[00:12:25]  And they asked me for a hit.
[00:12:26]  Of course, I gave it to him.
[00:12:27]  But now I have COVID and they have herpes simplex 2.
[00:12:32]  So there you go.
[00:12:34]  Just kidding.
[00:12:34]  I do not have that.
[00:12:36]  I have three.
[00:12:37]  So to our main event, a guy we I know have talked about on the show before.
[00:12:44]  In fact, have read transcripts of prior to this, with all of us, I believe, playing a role.
[00:12:51]  I think I was Alessi when we did this.
[00:12:53]  I know.
[00:12:54]  I was just thinking because I said, oh, Young Chomsky was Pagliuchi, who is Ghelane's lawyer.
[00:13:02]  Now I know what you're talking about.
[00:13:03]  Pagliuchi.
[00:13:04]  That's also not how you say his name, which is why you're confused.
[00:13:06]  But Pagliuchi, who is the one who was questioning.
[00:13:10]  Yeah.
[00:13:11]  Well, he was questioning some of the evidence in front of Alessi today.
[00:13:16]  He will probably, it looks like he's handling the cross of Alessi tomorrow.
[00:13:20]  Well, he's tangoed with him before.
[00:13:23]  Exactly.
[00:13:25]  But yeah, I have actually played the role of Alessi, and so it was interesting to see him in person.
[00:13:31]  So for those of you who do not know, who are not longtime listeners.
[00:13:34]  I was like, no.
[00:13:35]  Oh, yeah, I did.
[00:13:36]  Yeah.
[00:13:37]  I saw you showing your drawing to someone else before you showed it to me, which I thought was.
[00:13:40]  You were doing something.
[00:13:41]  I get rustling.
[00:13:42]  What if you.
[00:13:43]  Well, I was not.
[00:13:44]  I was doing very little rustling today.
[00:13:46]  Plus, the marshal in the room was asleep for most of the day.
[00:13:48]  So there was the cool marshal.
[00:13:50]  Yeah.
[00:13:51]  Yeah.
[00:13:51]  We had a hawk later who was kind of standing over here.
[00:13:53]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:53]  There's the one who's like the little fascist.
[00:13:55]  Yeah.
[00:13:56]  Well, that's the boss.
[00:13:57]  I really don't like him.
[00:13:58]  Yeah, I don't like him.
[00:13:59]  Unless you're listening to this, in which case, I salute you and I back the look forward to some Christmas cookies.
[00:14:04]  I guess you're blue.
[00:14:06]  But Juan Alessi was sort of a nebulously titled employee of Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:14:13]  I would call him a, if we're doing that tier system from the other day, which I know there was some contention about, but I feel like I really asserted myself in that tier C. Exactly.
[00:14:22]  He was a tier C employee.
[00:14:24]  This man was not invited.
[00:14:26]  What?
[00:14:27]  No?
[00:14:28]  Yeah.
[00:14:28]  Ghelane is tier B. Ghillaine is tier A.
[00:14:32]  The other.
[00:14:33]  Oh my fucking God.
[00:14:35]  In terms of employees under Epstein, Epstein does not count as an Epstein employee.
[00:14:40]  By the way, to both employees.
[00:14:41]  If he's self-employed, he could be employee and owner.
[00:14:44]  My God, he was employed by the government of Israel.
[00:14:49]  Well, I guess technically.
[00:14:50]  No, I, but no.
[00:14:51]  So Epstein's employees, we have Ghelane is the only person on A tier.
[00:14:57]  And then we have like Sarah Kellen and you tell me B tier.
[00:15:02]  And then Vysaski was like, yeah, he's, yeah.
[00:15:05]  And like Vysaski was like C plus, B, B minus.
[00:15:08]  C plus plus.
[00:15:09]  No, he was B minus.
[00:15:12]  Alessi, firm C.
[00:15:14]  And frankly, a low C, you know, to now, I want to just do a little bit of a description of this man.
[00:15:22]  Yeah.
[00:15:23]  He's so gentle.
[00:15:25]  Very gentle.
[00:15:26]  He is 72 years old.
[00:15:30]  Ecuadorian.
[00:15:31]  Yes.
[00:15:32]  Heavy accent.
[00:15:35]  Rotund.
[00:15:36]  Rotund, bespeckled.
[00:15:38]  In like, in like a, it varied, like, you know how, like, most, I don't know if this is, I'm going to try to say this as, you know, how like Mexican dads look?
[00:15:54]  Like that sort of like, you know, they're kind of just big.
[00:15:57]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:58]  He had that body.
[00:16:00]  Yeah.
[00:16:01]  Where it's like, it kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:16:03]  You know what I mean?
[00:16:04]  He's kind of just like around.
[00:16:06]  He's like a soft pyramid.
[00:16:08]  Yeah.
[00:16:11]  Um, he worked for Epstein for 1990 to 2002 at the El Brillo house in Palm Beach, Florida.
[00:16:19]  Yes.
[00:16:20]  And his job was, uh, well, it seems like he did a little bit of everything from maintenance to house cleaning along with his wife.
[00:16:30]  And so I think we read her transcript as well.
[00:16:32]  Yeah.
[00:16:33]  And also chauffeur.
[00:16:35]  Yeah, it seemed like basically, so he was hired by Epstein, referred to through Leslie Wexner's mom.
[00:16:44]  So that was a little unclear.
[00:16:47]  He was doing maintenance on a bunch of houses for rich people and like working.
[00:16:51]  In Florida.
[00:16:52]  In Florida, exactly.
[00:16:54]  And he made mention of two people, someone named, I believe, I wrote this down by.
[00:16:58]  Weissman.
[00:17:00]  We'll have to wait for the transcript.
[00:17:01]  No, it was like Meisner, Meisner.
[00:17:03]  Yeah, I have that too.
[00:17:06]  And referred by Mr. Wexner.
[00:17:07]  I have that.
[00:17:08]  I'm going to look that up after we do the episode and figure out if I can figure out who that is.
[00:17:12]  Don't quote us, which is why we're saying it on a recording.
[00:17:15]  But also made mention too that he worked at Leslie Wexner's mother's house as well.
[00:17:21]  So I would assume he wouldn't just mention that without that.
[00:17:24]  That's an old woman.
[00:17:26]  Yeah.
[00:17:26]  Yeah.
[00:17:27]  She's 400 years old, actually.
[00:17:29]  But in the early 90s.
[00:17:30]  She came here on the Mayflower.
[00:17:32]  It was, it was, actually, no, she came here on the Land Bridge from the Eurasian Land Bridge.
[00:17:38]  It was, she said a very perilous trek.
[00:17:41]  That's why she had to make, she made it all the way down to Florida, too.
[00:17:44]  Incredible.
[00:17:45]  But yeah, met Jeffrey Epstein in the early 90s and then worked for him for quite a long time.
[00:17:50]  Epstein was doing major renovations on his house.
[00:17:53]  So it seemed like at first he was actually like, my assumption is that he had some contacts in construction.
[00:18:00]  Yeah.
[00:18:01]  And he got, because Epstein was doing renovations.
[00:18:05]  You need a guy who knows people doing construction, blah, blah, blah, handling the house, as opposed to like being a house manager butler man.
[00:18:14]  Which his role turns into in the later years.
[00:18:16]  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:18]  He sort of described himself as a house manager, but like didn't really, it seems like he was literally managing the things that some of the things in the house, but he was, Ghillain was like, as was made apparent, very clearly his boss.
[00:18:29]  Well, yeah, so like I feel like Juan and Ghillain need to kind of have it out a little bit because people have different ideas about who was the house manager.
[00:18:43]  Both are claiming the title.
[00:18:45]  The other thing is that Juan, while it was like sort of like Gillain was his boss, it was also very clear that the prosecution through the questions they were asking Juan and the way that he was explaining how the house was run and where things were, the kind of layout of the Palm Beach mansion, is that like Ghillain lived there.
[00:19:05]  She had her own bathroom, though she slept in Epstein's bedroom, which we didn't know.
[00:19:11]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:12]  So it seems very clear that the prosecution was kind of pushing back on the idea that Ghillain was simply an employee.
[00:19:21]  Yes.
[00:19:21]  But in fact, was, you know, while she was directing and asking Juan to do things, though Mr. Epstein was as well, it was kind of out of a capacity of, like, in a capacity of living in the house.
[00:19:36]  Yeah.
[00:19:36]  And that seemed very central.
[00:19:39]  Yeah, something I noticed too, along with that.
[00:19:42]  I mean, I picked up on that too, because, you know, if you can remember from our talk about Vysovsky, the pilot, is he was pretty much like, yeah, there seemed like there was something personal between them, but like she was his employee.
[00:19:55]  Right, right, right.
[00:19:55]  Whereas Juan is like, she's sleeping in his bed.
[00:19:59]  Yeah.
[00:20:00]  The address book, the black book, which little foreshadowing my own right there, the black book said JE plus GM address book.
[00:20:09]  Yes.
[00:20:10]  That's how it was labeled in the evidence, although we did not actually see the cover itself.
[00:20:16]  Yeah, he said that Ghillane was with Epstein 95% of the time Epstein was in the Palm Beach house, which is different from what we've heard in the past, for sure.
[00:20:27]  He does not like Ghillain.
[00:20:30]  Very apparent.
[00:20:31]  This was, I will say, by far the most openly hostile to Gillaney.
[00:20:35]  He was like almost shaking when he was talking about her dog.
[00:20:39]  He was when they asked.
[00:20:42]  Oh my God, this man called.
[00:20:45]  I mean, he might as well be a police officer.
[00:20:47]  He wanted to kill this dog so bad.
[00:20:49]  Was incensed at this.
[00:20:51]  Oh my gosh.
[00:20:52]  I think partially because the dog was treated much better than he was.
[00:20:55]  A little terrier named Max, by the way.
[00:20:57]  Yes, which is.
[00:20:58]  And he kept referring to the dog as Max, which I found very gentle.
[00:21:02]  And shows that he had a relationship with the dog.
[00:21:04]  Okay, Liz is out of her mind.
[00:21:06]  He kept referring to the dog as Max, yes, but he kept referring to the dog in a long list of other things, like of people's names, and they'd be like, and Max.
[00:21:15]  I think that was just his accent.
[00:21:17]  No, no, he would, it was the pregnant pause.
[00:21:19]  No one hates dogs like that.
[00:21:20]  Well, you can hate specific dogs, and believe me, I think as well within his room.
[00:21:24]  I think Max is a good dog.
[00:21:26]  The problem with Max was his mom.
[00:21:28]  Yeah, also being named Max as a dog, too.
[00:21:32]  I think Max was a girl also.
[00:21:34]  I think Max was a girl, yeah.
[00:21:36]  Yeah.
[00:21:36]  And Max Maxwell?
[00:21:37]  They'll love that.
[00:21:38]  Yeah, I don't like that either.
[00:21:39]  But seeing Maxwell, even if it's a girl.
[00:21:42]  So they asked, they kind of laid out a lot of, why am I using this again?
[00:21:50]  Foreshadowing, in sort of the beginning of the questions they were asking him to, where it's like you could see where they were, like they were they were heading with a lot of it.
[00:21:59]  Um, from what Liz was saying right there, like proving basically that Epstein and Maxwell were like much more than employee and employer.
[00:22:09]  My god, I took so many fucking notes on this guy.
[00:22:12]  He talked for a really long time but uh, to really like going through the house we saw that a lot they went through.
[00:22:20]  A big feature in this trial has been various employees of Jeffrey Epstein walking us in detail through the layouts of his homes.
[00:22:30]  Yeah, and I think one of the best things that came out or not best, but most interesting things that came out of that is actually when we got to Wan's description of what in the past, we've been told were massage rooms.
[00:22:42]  However, they weren't necessarily dedicated massage rooms, so it turns out that they were basically massage beds in almost every room.
[00:22:52]  Yeah, and the main one was actually Epstein's bathroom.
[00:22:57]  Yeah now, if that sounds weird and I can, now I need to let me just play a little Juanalessi for you, because this is not your typical bathroom.
[00:23:05]  No, this was a quite large imagine.
[00:23:07]  It is like a large, like bathroom, powder room Also, closet off to the side where you get dressed.
[00:23:15]  A dressing room.
[00:23:17]  Yeah.
[00:23:18]  So you have a large dresser that he kept referring to, which is where you keep your clothes.
[00:23:22]  And that's also kind of attached to what I assume is also your unsuite bathroom.
[00:23:27]  Yeah.
[00:23:28]  Yeah.
[00:23:28]  Because it's attached to the master bedroom.
[00:23:31]  Now, Ghelane had her own bathroom also attached to the master bedroom on the opposite side of the house.
[00:23:39]  Yes.
[00:23:40]  Right?
[00:23:40]  Not, as they said, it's not a jack and gel, which I say, I love that term for a bathroom.
[00:23:45]  I think that's so cute.
[00:23:46]  Yeah.
[00:23:46]  But it's not a jack and gel, but it's two bathrooms attached to one big master suite.
[00:23:52]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:53]  And Liz, you say two bathrooms there, but that's not the only bathrooms in the house.
[00:23:58]  Okay, this was so weird.
[00:24:00]  Apparently, the house had six bedrooms, and you're like, damn, that's a lot of bedrooms, though it's really not when I break it down.
[00:24:08]  And 10 bathrooms.
[00:24:10]  Which that ratio seems very odd to me.
[00:24:13]  I mean, the thing is, too, especially when you keep in mind, is that they weren't all actually bedrooms either.
[00:24:19]  Yeah, no, like three of them were offices.
[00:24:22]  Yeah.
[00:24:23]  And so, I mean, I guess it's a big house.
[00:24:26]  Not that big of a house in terms of like rich man big houses.
[00:24:29]  Yeah.
[00:24:30]  It's like certainly not a manor.
[00:24:32]  No, it's not a man.
[00:24:33]  I mean, did they have manners in Florida?
[00:24:34]  I guess they did.
[00:24:36]  Yeah, they do.
[00:24:37]  Seaside manners.

=== Six Bedrooms, Ten Bathrooms (03:08) ===

[00:24:38]  Yeah, but you know, it's the guy, the guy, I guess, just like the piss.
[00:24:42]  But also, I mean, we take out at least one of those bathrooms and be like, oh, this is your like dedicated pedophile room.
[00:24:49]  Right.
[00:24:50]  Slash massage room too.
[00:24:53]  Because he did mention that occasionally 2% of the time, actually, I believe he said, well, he said 98% of the time the masseuses were girls or women, which means two of the times they were probably large, shirtless Cuban men that would be coming up there.
[00:25:08]  But yeah, he was cooperative in many respects, except for the way that he spoke, which we could tell Maureen Comey, the prosecutor, was questioning him, did not love.
[00:25:25]  Yeah, I mean, he's like, that's the, he's like a 17-year-old, 72-year-old man, and everything is in like legal jargon where it's also like, okay, you only have to, you can only answer like very narrowly what I'm asking you.
[00:25:37]  And oh, don't go ahead.
[00:25:38]  And oh, please, we're referring to this girl who actually you know, but by the name Jane.
[00:25:43]  So you could refer to her as Jane.
[00:25:44]  And, you know, he's getting a little confused.
[00:25:46]  Yeah.
[00:25:47]  And she was being a little short with him, which I didn't appreciate.
[00:25:51]  Me either.
[00:25:51]  Yeah.
[00:25:51]  Well, a couple other things I want to say about the bathrooms because, again, these are where the massages occurred.
[00:25:57]  And I think we should spend some time talking about them.
[00:25:59]  He's discussed, he says that one of the rules was that there would be a bunch of perfumes and oils laid out on the top of the dresser.
[00:26:08]  Yes, in Epstein's, in Epstein's bathroom.
[00:26:11]  in Epstein's bathroom.
[00:26:13]  Now, he's he a big chunk of the last kind of portion of the day was spent going through the pages of a household manual that was 58 pages that Ghillain had kind of put together as like the new rules of the house.
[00:26:35]  Now, Mr. Alessi had a lot to say about the changes that were made under Ghillane's purview.
[00:26:44]  Well, the thing is, if you got to keep this in mind too, is that Alessi had been working for Epstein since 91 at this house, right?
[00:26:52]  That's almost the length of time.
[00:26:54]  No, he'd been working for him since 90.
[00:26:56]  He met Ghillain in 91.
[00:26:58]  Yeah.
[00:26:58]  So that means he's been working for Epstein longer than Ghillane has lived in that house, much longer.
[00:27:05]  Well, I mean, in relative terms.
[00:27:07]  But like he's been there for a while and she was kind of coming into his territory there.
[00:27:12]  Yeah.
[00:27:13]  And he had mentioned this earlier in his testimony.
[00:27:17]  I have it written down here is that he's like, you know, it changed during sort of the course of his tenure there and that by the end, like he was basically instructed that like he couldn't even make eye contact with Epstein, only speak to Epstein when he was asked questions.
[00:27:32]  And the way that he phrased that made it pretty clear that that had not been the case before.
[00:27:36]  Right, right.
[00:27:37]  That these were all kind of formalized changes.
[00:27:39]  Yes.
[00:27:40]  Yeah.
[00:27:41]  So there were some interesting little tidbits in this house manual.
[00:27:46]  Yeah.

=== Bedside Table Mystery (08:15) ===

[00:27:47]  One that you really freaked out about.
[00:27:49]  Yeah.
[00:27:50]  So, okay, this was the 58-page manual.
[00:27:53]  This is actually longer.
[00:27:54]  It's, it's from a few years after.
[00:27:56]  I believe this is probably taken during the police raid on Epstein's home.
[00:28:00]  I'm not sure it was.
[00:28:02]  And so this was a few years after Juan had stopped working there.
[00:28:06]  And actually they went through and like asked him to point out pages that he recognized that were in the main.
[00:28:12]  It took a really long time.
[00:28:14]  I went and stretched my chevrolet legs a little bit.
[00:28:18]  But he, you know, they actually showed these on the screen, although not all of them, only really a few different pages and some essentially highlighted text from those.
[00:28:29]  But there was one, and everyone in the room, by the way, was crowded around.
[00:28:34]  It was so funny because, so we're watching on these screens and like the pages come up and there's, you know, you can tell they're only going to highlight and show us some of it.
[00:28:43]  And so everyone wants to see like what the rest of it is going to be that's not highlighted and shown to us.
[00:28:47]  And so there was like a mad rush where you've got like literally all these like blue check reporters sitting on the ground staring up at a TV screen.
[00:28:56]  Like it's like, I don't know, fourth grade biology or something.
[00:28:59]  I'm sitting cross-legged there.
[00:29:00]  Yeah, everyone was sitting cross-legged.
[00:29:03]  But there was some, there was some pretty interesting stuff there.
[00:29:06]  So I'm thank you.
[00:29:07]  It was a, and he was, by the way, pissed.
[00:29:09]  He called this really degrading.
[00:29:12]  Oh, he was like, yeah.
[00:29:13]  He was not us sitting there.
[00:29:15]  He didn't see that.
[00:29:16]  But he.
[00:29:17]  No, the manual.
[00:29:18]  The actual manual itself.
[00:29:19]  I mean, this is like decades later, and he's still very upset about it.
[00:29:23]  Yeah.
[00:29:24]  And so he said, one was, do you like, one of the big things was, you know, you try to anticipate their needs.
[00:29:32]  You know, that sort of thing.
[00:29:33]  It was very like Butlerian, not like Judith Butler.
[00:29:37]  No, no, like the butler.
[00:29:39]  Like the butler.
[00:29:40]  That sounds like a brace character, the butler.
[00:29:42]  No, I would never do that.
[00:29:43]  I know, but it does.
[00:29:44]  The gourmand is served by his butlers.
[00:29:47]  Or the butlers, the butlers of his count friends.
[00:29:51]  The gourmand hangs out with so many dukes and counts.
[00:29:54]  Never a king.
[00:29:57]  He doesn't like them.
[00:29:58]  He feels like they're a little too toity.
[00:30:01]  I mean, it's just much.
[00:30:03]  And look what they get into.
[00:30:04]  Look at who they're from.
[00:30:04]  Does the Gourmand have a lady friend?
[00:30:07]  No.
[00:30:09]  Well, the Gourmand is occasionally sitting in a giant booth with women in a French brasserie.
[00:30:16]  Oh, yeah.
[00:30:17]  With women also there.
[00:30:18]  While he's wearing his turtleneck.
[00:30:19]  Yes, yeah.
[00:30:20]  But also a bib.
[00:30:21]  Yes.
[00:30:22]  But for people who are just listening to this podcast, I'm like, what the fuck are these people talking about?
[00:30:26]  No, this is all I could see is Orson Welles.
[00:30:29]  But the gourmand, like, the gourmand does sit there while the women enjoy themselves.
[00:30:34]  Sip maybe a little bit of sherry.
[00:30:36]  The gourmand loves cognac, sherry.
[00:30:39]  It's all anything that comes in a velvet bag, which is his favorite thing to pet.
[00:30:46]  Although not in the way that that poor man from the Steinbeck story did.
[00:30:50]  He should have.
[00:30:51]  Okay, okay.
[00:30:52]  Quite frankly, he should have eaten that rabbit.
[00:30:53]  They're succulent.
[00:30:55]  Anyways, one of the things on the list that was not highlighted to us, but which I saw like my eyes were drawn to.
[00:31:02]  Lasers.
[00:31:03]  Yeah.
[00:31:03]  Well, you know how you walk outside, you look up and you can't stop looking at the sun.
[00:31:07]  This was exactly like that for me.
[00:31:09]  That's not where I thought you were going with that one.
[00:31:11]  So every time that Epstein comes to the house, a giant list of things need to be done, right?
[00:31:17]  I mean, every time he comes back from out of town.
[00:31:19]  But it was also, yeah, and it was like segmented.
[00:31:21]  It was like, okay, breakfast.
[00:31:22]  Okay.
[00:31:23]  Yeah.
[00:31:23]  I'm coming back from town.
[00:31:24]  Okay, before night.
[00:31:27]  And they compared it in this way to a five-star hotel.
[00:31:30]  Yes, exactly.
[00:31:30]  So the idea is like it was run kind of, at least in Gilean's little handbook, but it was run with all these like, you know, get every, all of these things must be done and taken care of and made sure of.
[00:31:42]  Yes.
[00:31:42]  One of those things on the pre-arrival checklist was gun must be placed in bedside table drawer.
[00:31:50]  Yeah.
[00:31:50]  Now, listen, I think I'm qualified to speak on this because I have slept with a gun in a bedside table drawer for many years now.
[00:31:59]  What are you doing taking it out?
[00:32:01]  Well, no, here's my thing.
[00:32:03]  Okay.
[00:32:04]  So Epstein may have taken it out.
[00:32:06]  Yeah.
[00:32:07]  Well, I think it's okay to take it out if you're the guy who has the gun.
[00:32:10]  Well, that's what I'm saying.
[00:32:12]  But I don't think that it's that every time he comes back, you're replacing it in the drawer.
[00:32:16]  It's more of a open the drawer, you know, check and see if the gun's there, sort of like check and see, you know, you always see the, you know, Mormon Bible or whatever in a hotel room.
[00:32:26]  It's like the same thing.
[00:32:28]  It's just make sure it's always there as opposed to now we re now we've placed it out because it's been taken out every time.
[00:32:34]  Maybe, but something else sort of struck me too when they were going through the, I think this is a different page, but it was also like making sure that the house was ready for when they came back is that photographs must be placed in Ghelan's bathroom, which, what?
[00:32:55]  Yeah, that's weird.
[00:32:56]  That's weird.
[00:32:56]  So that makes me think.
[00:32:58]  I did.
[00:32:58]  So that makes me think that things are taken out and then put back.
[00:33:01]  Yeah, or moved.
[00:33:02]  Perhaps she had moved them and she wants them placed back in her bathroom upon arrival.
[00:33:05]  Yeah, could be.
[00:33:06]  Now, here's the thing that I want to point out that we aren't pointing out.
[00:33:11]  Okay, well, that's feel like implied by the first part of the sentence, but you know what?
[00:33:16]  Say it from your chest, baby.
[00:33:18]  I think the idea of Epstein holding a gun is so fucking crazy.
[00:33:22]  It's insanely funny to me.
[00:33:23]  He's not a gun wielder.
[00:33:25]  No, he's a liberal.
[00:33:27]  He's a Democrat.
[00:33:28]  What does he do with a gun?
[00:33:31]  Well.
[00:33:31]  I could see him in some sort of like, you know, rich guy, Idaho, hunting.
[00:33:39]  Yeah, double-barreled shotgun with just for the photos, like, you know, shooting Cheney in the face or whatever.
[00:33:46]  Yeah, But, like, has a fucking handgun in his or whatever.
[00:33:53]  I don't know.
[00:33:53]  What kind of gun do you think he had?
[00:33:54]  Well, I mean, it's a bedside table.
[00:33:56]  So unless it's, it's got, it's a handgun.
[00:33:58]  Unless he has a huge bedside table.
[00:34:01]  It could be a huge bedside table.
[00:34:02]  Probably a pretty bigger.
[00:34:03]  It's a shotgun.
[00:34:05]  But no.
[00:34:06]  It's like diagonally in a drawer.
[00:34:08]  So I knew actually Epstein had a gun before this, but I have never heard any mention of what kind of gun it is.
[00:34:16]  I'm going to try to get in contact with Alesi and ask him in that and a few other things.
[00:34:21]  Sure.
[00:34:22]  But no, I was sort of shocked at that as well.
[00:34:25]  Because Epstein, like, you know, for all of his sort of dangerous associations, I'm not talking about his pedophile stuff.
[00:34:33]  But, you know, for his contacts and the stuff that he was getting into and the stuff that Maxwell, I think, was getting him into too, you know, some of this can be pretty dangerous, but it's not the kind of danger that you're really going to be able to solve by having a gun on the bedside table.
[00:34:45]  You know what I mean?
[00:34:46]  That just strikes me as a sensitive posture.
[00:34:48]  Exactly.
[00:34:49]  The kind of guys that he could piss off would be the kind of guys who probably would take more than a single handgun to protect you from.
[00:34:58]  But no, we're trying to get the entire checklist.
[00:35:02]  Eventually it will, I guess, maybe be released.
[00:35:04]  I'm not sure.
[00:35:06]  But yeah, there was one other thing that sort of struck me just in the way it was phrased, which was hear nothing, say nothing, see nothing.
[00:35:20]  Yes.
[00:35:21]  Except to answer questions directed at you.
[00:35:24]  Right.
[00:35:25]  And he said that she was fostering an atmosphere where, you know, I was supposed to be blind, deaf, and dumb.
[00:35:36]  And he kind of like made a little smirk when he said that, looking straight at Ghelane, which was very funny.
[00:35:41]  Like he knew, he's like, yeah, gotcha.
[00:35:45]  Totally.
[00:35:46]  Yeah, I was sort of, you know, it's, it's the thing is with Alessi, and I think we probably talked about this almost two years ago by now, I feel like classic New York Hawks in the background, if you can hear him, a little local color.

=== Virginia Roberts' Shadow (11:05) ===

[00:36:02]  But the thing about Alessi is like, all right, you had to know something was going on.
[00:36:08]  Yeah, I mean, come on.
[00:36:09]  You know?
[00:36:11]  Well, I mean, he says, he says he only saw two girls that looked underage.
[00:36:15]  No, you did.
[00:36:15]  Brother.
[00:36:16]  Brother.
[00:36:16]  No, you didn't.
[00:36:17]  Brother.
[00:36:17]  Yeah.
[00:36:18]  Like, you're a liar.
[00:36:19]  Yes.
[00:36:20]  Like, I just, there's no way.
[00:36:22]  I mean, there's just no way that that's true, you know?
[00:36:25]  I mean, granted, like, Epstein started, you know, a lot of the stuff from Epstein's, you know, Florida arrest came from a few years after Olessi was there.
[00:36:35]  But it's like, I'm sorry.
[00:36:37]  During the time that Virginia was there, I mean, he knew Virginia.
[00:36:40]  During the time that she was there, a lot of this stuff happened.
[00:36:43]  And so you must have.
[00:36:45]  Yeah, I want to say, like, there's this odd sort of specter of Virginia Roberts or Virginia Jeffrey, if you perhaps heard of her, in this case.
[00:36:55]  She's not one of the victims named in this case.
[00:36:59]  I mean, she's a victim of Jeffrey Epstein, but I mean, she's not one of the, you know, girls in the indictment.
[00:37:05]  No.
[00:37:06]  But she is referred to constantly.
[00:37:09]  This is maybe the third or fourth time we've heard reference to her from the prosecution.
[00:37:14]  Yeah.
[00:37:15]  And it's very weird because, I mean, at least for us, I don't know.
[00:37:19]  I don't know how you feel about this, but it's weird.
[00:37:20]  It's odd because it's like, of course, I'm very familiar with her case and everything that she's, you know, come out and said about what happened to her, what Epstein did to her.
[00:37:31]  But it's like she's kind of this weird sort of like specter or this thing that's sort of just like hangs over it.
[00:37:38]  Yeah.
[00:37:38]  Yeah.
[00:37:39]  Hanging over the case, but it isn't there, but is there?
[00:37:41]  It's like this very odd presence that I don't really know what to make of, like as if we're all supposed to kind of know like who this girl is and what her, you know, what happened to her or that we're not supposed, I don't know.
[00:37:56]  It's like, I don't really know what to make of it in the way that she's being utilized by the prosecution.
[00:38:01]  I mean, I think in one aspect, like, you know, she had this pretty publicized civil suit against Ghillane, right?
[00:38:10]  Which is where a lot of the stuff, like, I think that Juan Olessi testimony actually came from.
[00:38:15]  Right.
[00:38:15]  And so, I mean, I think there's a bunch of reasons they're not using her, which I don't know if that's what you're talking about.
[00:38:20]  But I think, yeah, I think that like they're trying to establish in some ways that like this is someone that they can name, right?
[00:38:28]  Like, she's public.
[00:38:29]  You know, they don't have to have the documents under seal.
[00:38:33]  You know, like they can use her name openly.
[00:38:35]  And also, you know, she had a much closer relationship to Epstein than a lot of the girls that in this case, but also just in general did.
[00:38:45]  You know, like she traveled with him much more.
[00:38:46]  She's like a very high-profile victim.
[00:38:50]  And so I would expect like, I don't know.
[00:38:53]  I think there's just a certain amount of familiarity and documentation with her case too.
[00:38:57]  But like also, you know, Olessi knows who she is, right?
[00:39:00]  Like she was around the house all the time.
[00:39:02]  And so I think she's just easy to use in that regard because like, well, this is another like identified young girl that is very publicly accused Epsy of this stuff.
[00:39:12]  But we know that, but the jury doesn't know that, I guess is what I'm saying.
[00:39:16]  And so I think it's an odd way to kind of like, they're sort of like half in, half out with her story.
[00:39:21]  And it's a kind of very odd use that I don't, it's like they keep teasing it.
[00:39:24]  They keep saying, and you saw someone named Virginia Jeffrey or, oh, and you remember someone named Virginia.
[00:39:30]  And he tells the story of meeting Virginia for the first time.
[00:39:33]  He drove Ghillain to check out the spa at Mar-a-Lago.
[00:39:39]  And as they're driving away, Ghillane tells him to stop the car.
[00:39:42]  Yeah.
[00:39:42]  And they see this young blonde girl who he says maybe 14, 15.
[00:39:46]  And she, you know, goes after her.
[00:39:48]  And then later on, he sees her at the house.
[00:39:50]  And that's Virginia.
[00:39:51]  And that's how, you know, kind of Virginia's interactions with Ghillain and Epstein and the years of her abuse begin.
[00:39:58]  What I think is odd is the way that they kind of, it's like they're teasing this story to the jury in this very weird way, where I wish they would just say, like, okay, maybe they're going to call her to the stand.
[00:40:10]  I don't know.
[00:40:11]  Maybe they are.
[00:40:11]  Maybe they won't.
[00:40:13]  I don't think they are.
[00:40:14]  Yeah, I know, but then it's this sort of like incomplete sort of reference that I don't know exactly how I feel about it.
[00:40:19]  I think it's a bit odd.
[00:40:21]  Well, I don't know.
[00:40:22]  I mean, there's also like, they're still on victim one, too.
[00:40:25]  So there's sort of a lot of time for this to also, you know, be brought up a lot more.
[00:40:31]  So the black book also made an appearance today.
[00:40:35]  Yes, or not.
[00:40:37]  Yes, it's another half in, half out.
[00:40:40]  Exactly.
[00:40:40]  Well, the thing is, so the thing is, I think this is sort of tricky legally.
[00:40:44]  And I'm actually not entirely sure what the idea behind using it is.
[00:40:51]  But Jeffrey Epstein's famous black book was physically in attendance today.
[00:40:57]  Yes, one version of it.
[00:40:58]  Yes.
[00:40:59]  Because that's something else we found out: is that not only well, we sort of knew this already, but it was made clear by Alessi is that there were, of course, many iterations of the black book, yes, but they were placed by every telephone in the house.
[00:41:11]  Yes, there was maybe like six copies of the black book in the house at any given time, exactly.
[00:41:17]  And they were updated and reprinted about every six months.
[00:41:20]  Yes, so the black book that was present today is actually from again, like a few years after Alessi stopped working there.
[00:41:28]  Yes, um, it was there was a really funny moment where um Maureen Comey was like, about what time do you think this could be from?
[00:41:39]  And he's like, flipped back through it and he's like, well, it says here 2004 to 2005.
[00:41:44]  And then there's like conjecture that's thrown out for somebody.
[00:41:46]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was very funny.
[00:41:49]  But there is a lot of pushback from the defense about including this as evidence because, well, A, a lot of you know, big names are in there, but that might not want their names banding about in a federal trial.
[00:42:03]  But B, the chain of custody on this piece of evidence, because remember, this was taken from Epstein's.
[00:42:10]  Well, actually, no, it wasn't.
[00:42:12]  It was taken from Epstein's house by a guy that actually replaced Juan Alessi.
[00:42:20]  And then he tried to sell it and then was basically busted in a sting operation.
[00:42:25]  The police have it from that.
[00:42:26]  He actually did more time in jail than Epstein did for having stolen the black book.
[00:42:32]  But they are making a lot of sort of hay about like, well, you don't actually know where this book has been, right?
[00:42:40]  I think the defense even said someone could have taken it to Kinko's, put a bunch of new pages in it, and shredded some others and then rebound it, right?
[00:42:47]  He's like, yeah, I guess.
[00:42:49]  I mean, it's true.
[00:42:50]  I mean, yeah, I guess it's technically true, you know.
[00:42:54]  But, but yeah, it was a very sort of funny moment too when there was a really long sidebar, a lot of those today.
[00:43:01]  And Juan Alessi is just sitting up there in his reading glasses, sort of hunched over, just like casually flipping through the black book.
[00:43:08]  Yeah, it was very cute.
[00:43:10]  But I, yeah, I don't expect the black book fight to be over with today either.
[00:43:14]  No, it seems like it's going to go on for some time.
[00:43:16]  Yeah.
[00:43:17]  The day ended with kind of like a big fireworks display in testimony.
[00:43:24]  It was so funny because everyone was kind of drifting out a little bit and was like, all right, we've been like, you're going through these pages and saying, yes, no, I recognize my handwriting.
[00:43:32]  Yes, no, I recognize this.
[00:43:34]  And you're like, you know, Maureen Comey is being so short with this lovely man, but he's like, kind of being a little frustrating, let's be real.
[00:43:43]  And then suddenly we get to sex toy talk.
[00:43:47]  I knew that, and I knew this was coming too.
[00:43:49]  Yes.
[00:43:49]  I knew this was coming because they set it up.
[00:43:52]  Yes.
[00:43:53]  And actually, I expected a piece of evidence to be entered that was not entered.
[00:43:57]  Do you think it's going to be entered once they get the FBI up there?
[00:44:00]  Yeah.
[00:44:01]  Oh, because those are the guys that.
[00:44:04]  And because there's a few pieces that were actually mentioned today, which is the prosecution was asking Alessi basically what his duties were after cleaning or after the massages were given.
[00:44:20]  And it became very apparent.
[00:44:22]  They actually frustratingly had to ask the question kind of over and over because there kept being some very strong objections from the defense's side, really just like kind of delaying getting it out there.
[00:44:36]  But basically, what his duties were after Epstein had been given a massage.
[00:44:42]  And so he said, oh, he'd go in there and pick up towels and, you know, pick up oils.
[00:44:46]  He called them exotic oils.
[00:44:49]  And there was, she had to, Comey sort of had to narrow the question a little bit and be like, was there ever anything in there that you were surprised to see or didn't see very often?
[00:45:00]  And, well, frankly, he mentioned a dildo.
[00:45:04]  Yeah, he says it looked like a huge man's pendus.
[00:45:08]  He said pennis.
[00:45:09]  Yeah, that's how he pronounced it.
[00:45:10]  Pendus.
[00:45:11]  And he said it had two heads.
[00:45:14]  Yes.
[00:45:15]  And he would go put the dildo in Miss Maxwell's closet, which actually is like very.
[00:45:21]  Yeah, so wait, after he cleaned it, he says, I put my gloves on and put it underwater, and then I put it in the basket in Miss Maxwell's closet.
[00:45:31]  Then they say, why did you put it in there?
[00:45:34]  He says, because over time, that's where it became, it became known that that's where it belonged.
[00:45:40]  And then they asked what else was in that basket.
[00:45:43]  Yes.
[00:45:43]  Which, okay, I got very frustrated here because he said porno tapes in there and there was also a black or red vinyl latex sort of like costume.
[00:45:53]  And then he pronounced costume, like he obviously said costume, but he pronounced it, you know, like, you know, he had an accent.
[00:46:00]  And Comey like jumps in there and she's like, you mean costume?
[00:46:05]  And he says yes.
[00:46:06]  And then she moves on.
[00:46:07]  Like he was still listing things and she moved on from it right then.
[00:46:11]  I know.
[00:46:12]  She's like, let us know what's in the basket, bitch.
[00:46:15]  Exactly.
[00:46:15]  But it's pretty important.
[00:46:16]  It's so annoying.
[00:46:18]  I know, but it's pretty important, I feel like, to the case because, you know, that shows that obviously, like, you know, the linkage between Maxwell's bathroom, Epstein's bedroom, Epstein's bathroom.
[00:46:30]  But also, like, you know, these were being, this was being put back specifically into Maxwell's room.
[00:46:35]  And so, or into her bathroom.
[00:46:38]  And I think they're doing a pretty good job of like drawing like, yeah, that's like, look, these things are connected.
[00:46:43]  Like, these massages, even if she's not there, like, they're using her stuff.
[00:46:47]  And it's like, she's part of this sort of machinery.
[00:46:49]  Yeah, like it was hers.
[00:46:51]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:46:52]  Yeah, I gotta say that everyone in the room perked up when this happened and tip, tip, tip were like, well, there's no one's typing because there's no electronics, but everyone was scribbling like furiously and so excited and like grins on their faces.

=== Embarrassing Personalities (03:34) ===

[00:47:07]  And there was some like British jackass in there who said something like, oh, I knew.
[00:47:12]  Oh, now I just was going to get to the end of this story.
[00:47:16]  Oops, I got a spoiler here.
[00:47:18]  Well, this jackass, as we were leaving, he was like, oh, I knew they were going to need like dump on him.
[00:47:23]  I knew they were going to get on, like, get him on something talking about Alessi.
[00:47:27]  And it was because of the like kind of sad personal story that he mentioned at the end.
[00:47:31]  Yes.
[00:47:32]  Are you talking about the guy in the glasses?
[00:47:34]  With the like tech vest?
[00:47:36]  Yeah.
[00:47:36]  You know, that's Ghelane's friend, right?
[00:47:38]  No, not that guy.
[00:47:39]  Oh, no, no, no, no.
[00:47:40]  They're like British journalists.
[00:47:41]  Oh, I don't know.
[00:47:43]  Yeah.
[00:47:43]  I think that might be BBC, but I'm not sure.
[00:47:46]  Well, anyways, we so we do we do have a little sad ending to this.
[00:47:53]  Well, it was mostly sad because of the way that Juan was acting, but I had actually totally forgotten this part of the story.
[00:48:01]  Yeah.
[00:48:03]  You know, Juan talks about how he stopped working there in 2002, and then he was asked by Maureen Comey if he ever came back to the house after that.
[00:48:13]  And he was silent for a really long time.
[00:48:16]  Yeah, like he was embarrassed to talk about it.
[00:48:18]  Well, at first, I thought the audio cut out because it was like, this wasn't like a couple beats and then like he started talking.
[00:48:25]  This was like 15 seconds of silence.
[00:48:28]  And then he says yes.
[00:48:30]  And he says that he basically says he broke into Epstein's house in 2004 and he took $6,300 in cash that he had that he had in an envelope from Epstein's desk and like snuck out.
[00:48:46]  And he was like really sad about this.
[00:48:48]  And he tried to explain.
[00:48:49]  He said, you know, this was a really hard time in my life.
[00:48:51]  I was sick and I had a relationship with someone that wasn't romantic, but I was unfaithful.
[00:49:05]  He was explaining this whole situation and that his wife and his family kicked him out of the house and he was desperate.
[00:49:12]  He didn't know what to do.
[00:49:13]  And so he went and broke into Epstein's house and stole a bunch of money.
[00:49:16]  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:49:18]  And he said that Epstein called him after this happened and arranged a meeting.
[00:49:24]  And he showed him a picture of Juan inside the house on the night of the break-in, which to me, I said, so Epstein's got cameras in the house.
[00:49:37]  Well, yeah, but it's also like, Alessi, you know, this man has cameras in his house.
[00:49:41]  Well, look, he was a desperate man.
[00:49:43]  Yeah.
[00:49:44]  Now, at that point, he says that Epstein talked about his mother and he said he kind of had it in this way where he felt, I think there was a couple of things.
[00:49:54]  I think he was embarrassed about the break-in and about what happened.
[00:49:59]  But also, it seemed like he almost was like thankful for the way Epstein approached this entire situation because no charges were pressed.
[00:50:09]  Epstein told him, okay, we're going to treat it as a loan.
[00:50:13]  And Juan very proudly said, I have the receipt.
[00:50:17]  I sent him a cashier's check, $6,300.
[00:50:19]  I paid him back, blah, blah, blah.
[00:50:20]  Like he was very proud of that fact.
[00:50:22]  And so it seemed like he was almost embarrassed to kind of have to tell this story that humanized Epstein a little bit.
[00:50:29]  Yeah.
[00:50:30]  In addition to the personal embarrassment he had of, you know, at that point in his life being in this desperate situation.
[00:50:38]  I have a couple theories of what's going on, but.

=== Standing Up to the Old Boss (01:15) ===

[00:50:41]  Yeah.
[00:50:42]  Well, I can't, I don't want to speculate too much on the man's life there.
[00:50:45]  But yeah, it was interesting that he said it was not romantic.
[00:50:49]  So I'm assuming an emotional affair.
[00:50:52]  Liz thinks otherwise.
[00:50:53]  I think it was a sugar daddy thing.
[00:50:55]  Yeah.
[00:50:55]  Well, you know, you got those kind of things.
[00:50:58]  You got to, you know.
[00:50:59]  Those can't, you know, that doesn't, that could be emotional too.
[00:51:03]  But, but the summary of that is really like, you know, learn from Juan.
[00:51:07]  Never give him, never give a dime to a woman.
[00:51:11]  Well, we're going to hear more from him tomorrow because the cross-examination of Juan and then the redirect is going to take some time.
[00:51:18]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:19]  And I think that the defense has a lot of questions and a lot of details they want to hammer possession.
[00:51:26]  Yeah.
[00:51:26]  I mean, Gale needs her revenge too, right?
[00:51:28]  You know, this guy got his time up on the stand being, you know, being able to tell off his old boss.
[00:51:35]  And she can get her lawyers to needle him to fucking oblivion.
[00:51:39]  Well, we will definitely be there to witness it all.
[00:51:42]  I'm Liz.
[00:51:43]  My name is Brace.
[00:51:44]  We are, of course, joined by producer Young Chomsky, who is about to be put away for the rest of his life in federal prison for producing this podcast, which is called Truan.
[00:51:55]  And we will see you next time.
[00:51:57]  Bye-bye!