True Anon Truth Feed - 👁️ Ghislaine Maxwell Trial: Day 1👁️
Aired: 2021-11-30
Duration: 54:25


=== Animal Crackers & Trials (01:50) ===

[00:00:00]  Welcome to Truanon, the Ghillaine Maxwell trial.
[00:00:04]  You sounded awful cheery there.
[00:00:26]  I'm like leaning into it.
[00:00:27]  I'm just going, you know what it is?
[00:00:29]  You can't react against it.
[00:00:30]  You got to push through it.
[00:00:31]  Yeah, I've been trying to do that with the help of just coffee after exploded Red Bull after.
[00:00:38]  Oh my God.
[00:00:39]  Jesus Christ.
[00:00:40]  Yeah, Animal Crackers.
[00:00:42]  I really appreciate you bringing me Animal Crackers.
[00:00:44]  That was very sweet.
[00:00:45]  Animal Crackers.
[00:00:46]  Speaking of Liz, though, let's introduce ourselves.
[00:00:49]  Oh, yeah.
[00:00:50]  I'm Liz, like you just said.
[00:00:51]  My name is Brace.
[00:00:53]  And of course, we are joined, unfortunately, from the prisoner's galley, Young Chopsky, who's producing the episode and every episode.
[00:01:01]  The podcast is called Truanon.
[00:01:03]  Yeah, you know it.
[00:01:03]  You love it, baby.
[00:01:04]  And we're here.
[00:01:05]  And you might be like, how come these guys are tripping over their words and just sound like freaks and lunatics and all that kind of stuff?
[00:01:13]  Well, it's because we're very sleepy.
[00:01:15]  Yes, it is.
[00:01:16]  But we're here.
[00:01:17]  We're here.
[00:01:18]  And we're here to talk to you about what we witnessed here, day one of the Ghillain Maxwell trial.
[00:01:25]  Now, before we kind of like walk you guys through, we want to take you on a journey with us through this ride as we attend every day of the trial and are going to be reporting to you guys, I think, pretty regularly.
[00:01:40]  Regularly.
[00:01:41]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:01:42]  We're unsure how it's going to exactly go.
[00:01:44]  You know, it's going to be, it's going to be an interesting ride that we are all going to take together.

=== Day One Recap (04:04) ===

[00:01:50]  But before we get into the details of kind of like what we saw, felt, smelt, dealt even today, let's push, let's pull back.
[00:02:03]  Like, remember, I used to say that a lot.
[00:02:05]  Let's pull back a little bit and just do a little recapulet.
[00:02:08]  Can you walk us through, Brace?
[00:02:09]  Who is Ghillain Maxwell?
[00:02:11]  Well, Ghillaine Maxwell, you know what?
[00:02:13]  All right.
[00:02:14]  So before we even get started on any of this, let's pull back even farther.
[00:02:17]  What?
[00:02:18]  Yes.
[00:02:19]  I want to make something very clear here.
[00:02:21]  And I am staking the Truanon flag in this forever, by the way, through thick and thin.
[00:02:27]  Ghelane Maxwell is a Protestant woman like her mother, who was Protestant and not Jewish.
[00:02:36]  Want to be clear about that?
[00:02:39]  Who was, of course, the daughter of famous Israeli spy Robert Maxwell and the, well, we heard a lot of terms for her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein today.
[00:02:49]  Yeah, we did.
[00:02:50]  Before, I do want to just jump in really quick here and let listeners know that Brace said this to, we were in line this morning at like, I don't know what the fuck it was.
[00:02:59]  It's like 6, 6.15, 6.30 in the morning, freezing.
[00:03:03]  Oh, my took.
[00:03:04]  Oh my God, my little toes.
[00:03:06]  I literally couldn't feel them when we were standing on the marble.
[00:03:08]  Oh, my God.
[00:03:09]  Anyway, he was like, just like chest puffed out, like to anyone who would listen saying Ghelaine Maxwell's not Jewish.
[00:03:17]  She's not Jewish.
[00:03:18]  She's not Jewish.
[00:03:19]  I'm sorry.
[00:03:21]  You know, show me the documents.
[00:03:22]  D.K. Brown was a little confused by it.
[00:03:24]  Show me the documents of her being Jewish because I'm sorry.
[00:03:28]  I do not think you should be talking about requesting Jewish documents.
[00:03:32]  She's not.
[00:03:34]  I'm actually requesting Protestant documents.
[00:03:37]  The Prot Doc.
[00:03:38]  A French Protestant, too.
[00:03:40]  She's a Huguenot.
[00:03:41]  She's a Huguenot.
[00:03:42]  The French Protestant, a true rare bird.
[00:03:45]  Yeah.
[00:03:45]  Yeah.
[00:03:45]  Well, they kicked a lot of them out of it.
[00:03:47]  Okay, let's actually get to it.
[00:03:49]  Yes.
[00:03:49]  Okay.
[00:03:50]  So, of course, Ghelane Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's co-conspirator, right-hand woman, sometimes, well, so she wishes, girlfriend, and let's just say all-around partner in crime.
[00:04:05]  Yeah.
[00:04:06]  Which is, I guess, also what co-conspirator means, who is now, after Jeffrey Epstein's untimely exit, his shuffle off this mortal coil, is to help Tear Her tell it, suffering for his crimes.
[00:04:22]  She got arrested last year on quite a few charges that all basically amount to the same thing.
[00:04:29]  So I'll list some of them off for you right now.
[00:04:32]  So she got a one is for enticement of a minor to engage in illegal sex acts, which is not something you want to be really accused of there.
[00:04:42]  Another one is one count of transportation of a minor with intent to engage in illegal sex acts, one count of sex trafficking a minor, and then three counts of conspiracy, which of course are related to the other acts that I just mentioned.
[00:05:00]  She's also charged with two counts of perjury, which I want to be clear here.
[00:05:04]  For her, it can be illegal, but just as a general overall thing, like gambling, I think, you know, case-by-case basis.
[00:05:12]  Okay.
[00:05:12]  You can purge her.
[00:05:13]  Well, I purge her.
[00:05:14]  I don't think we should say that.
[00:05:15]  Well, she shouldn't purger.
[00:05:17]  But that, those two perjury counts are being split off, and those will be a separate trial.
[00:05:22]  Or like Liz and I think probably she'll take a deal on it.
[00:05:25]  Yes.
[00:05:26]  But yes, today was her day in court.
[00:05:28]  Very much a delayed trial.
[00:05:30]  This was supposed to start, I believe, in the summer.
[00:05:33]  Yeah.
[00:05:33]  And she was, in fact, charged in the summer of 2020.
[00:05:37]  So it's been quite a long time.
[00:05:38]  But with COVID and, of course, her expert team.
[00:05:42]  Yeah.
[00:05:43]  We're finally, things have finally come to a head now today in November.
[00:05:47]  Yeah.
[00:05:47]  And now we've been, you know, covering the Jeffrey Epstein case since we started this podcast.

=== Delayed Trial Drama (11:10) ===

[00:05:54]  Some of you joined us later in the game.
[00:05:57]  You might be like, oh, damn, I thought you just talked about everyone coming together and handling COVID in this really nice way.
[00:06:04]  And that was so nice.
[00:06:05]  Or, oh, I thought you talked about the great reset or the dog fucking case from San Francisco.
[00:06:12]  Wrong, bitch.
[00:06:13]  This is the Epstein podcast.
[00:06:14]  This is our shit.
[00:06:15]  But breaking news, I want to interrupt Liz here.
[00:06:18]  We're actually stopping our coverage today because we're flying out to Chicago to cover the Jussie Smollett trial as the first unabashedly pro-Jussie journalists because we're journalists for Jussie.
[00:06:30]  We're coming out swinging for our guy.
[00:06:32]  Journalists for Jussie.
[00:06:33]  Journalists for Jussie.
[00:06:35]  So good.
[00:06:35]  You know, we should just stop the working group and just watch all the like any like self-ID'd journalists just kind of like walk back.
[00:06:43]  Like just like the Homer Simpson.
[00:06:45]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:06:46]  I hand out my business card.
[00:06:49]  I do not miss this.
[00:06:50]  Yeah, I actually really want to turn that into a viral movement.
[00:06:53]  So we are going to take you with us on a little four-dimensional journey.
[00:07:00]  Yes.
[00:07:01]  Through space and time.
[00:07:02]  Because there's no, all right.
[00:07:04]  So to clear some things up, I've seen, like we mentioned the last episode, there's been a lot of sort of viral posts of my dad texted me that.
[00:07:13]  What?
[00:07:13]  Last night, I get a text from my dad that says, is this true?
[00:07:18]  And it's a tweet that says, no journalists will be allowed to cover the Gillane Maxwell trial.
[00:07:24]  Yeah.
[00:07:25]  And I was like, dad, you're falling for the fake news.
[00:07:29]  It's not true.
[00:07:30]  It's fully fake news.
[00:07:31]  It's fully fake news.
[00:07:32]  There's fake news everywhere.
[00:07:34]  Yes.
[00:07:35]  And you are.
[00:07:36]  So I will say, I was a little bit worried that there would be, that it would be a little difficult to get in.
[00:07:44]  And so we got there.
[00:07:46]  Yes.
[00:07:47]  Bright and early this morning.
[00:07:50]  Bryce and I got dinner last night.
[00:07:52]  That was very nice.
[00:07:53]  I love a Big Mac.
[00:07:54]  And then we split off, reconvened in the AM.
[00:08:00]  Yes.
[00:08:01]  I woke up at, I think, like 5.15.
[00:08:04]  Uh-huh.
[00:08:05]  Quick little shower.
[00:08:07]  You know, I got a fresh in.
[00:08:08]  Of course.
[00:08:10]  5.15, baby?
[00:08:11]  Yeah.
[00:08:12]  Here's something wrong with you.
[00:08:14]  I like to like, no, because I set the alarm for 5.15 and then I'm like, oh, and then I turn on the TV or like, you know, put on something to like get my mind moving.
[00:08:23]  Yeah.
[00:08:23]  Then I like jump in the show.
[00:08:25]  You know, whatever.
[00:08:25]  I've got my moment.
[00:08:26]  And I kind of like to like, you know, fuss around.
[00:08:28]  I like scrolled on the internet.
[00:08:30]  Yeah.
[00:08:30]  Then I got a text from you.
[00:08:31]  Anyway, we walked down to the courthouse.
[00:08:34]  Yes.
[00:08:36]  Get there at 6.30.
[00:08:39]  It's pitch blackout, by the way, which is very disorienting.
[00:08:42]  Gotham style.
[00:08:44]  Freezing.
[00:08:44]  There's a huge line.
[00:08:46]  Yes, already a big line.
[00:08:47]  Already a big line.
[00:08:48]  I talked to someone.
[00:08:49]  They got there at 4 a.m.
[00:08:51]  Really?
[00:08:52]  Yeah.
[00:08:52]  Oh, you didn't tell me that.
[00:08:54]  Well, I found out later in the day, and I don't know what you were doing.
[00:08:56]  Okay.
[00:08:56]  Yeah, so they got there at 4 a.m.
[00:08:58]  We proceeded to stand there.
[00:09:00]  We were maybe like 30th in line.
[00:09:02]  Yes, although I will say this, and I shouldn't complain too much about it in case we try to do this later in the trial.
[00:09:09]  Although I don't think it'll be as big a problem.
[00:09:11]  Okay.
[00:09:11]  A lot of cutters in that line.
[00:09:13]  Oh, a lot of people.
[00:09:15]  Oh, thanks for oh, it's so good to see you.
[00:09:17]  Are you working for us too?
[00:09:18]  Oh, you can come cut in line with me.
[00:09:20]  Oh my God.
[00:09:21]  Oh, thank you so much.
[00:09:23]  Yeah, there was definitely, you know what else I saw a lot of?
[00:09:27]  Handy, you know what?
[00:09:28]  You're going to like this one, young Chomsky.
[00:09:30]  Handy producers, haggard, tired, freezing, holding line for the talent that was coming up.
[00:09:38]  Fresh blow dry.
[00:09:40]  Is this so?
[00:09:41]  Yes.
[00:09:41]  I totally missed this as I basically was unaware of what was happening until about 11 a.m. this morning.
[00:09:47]  Yeah, you were very tired.
[00:09:48]  Oh, there was something wrong.
[00:09:50]  Yeah, I went to bed at three.
[00:09:51]  Oh, I went to the other side.
[00:09:51]  I know you were talking about Julie K. Brown about whether or not Gilling was Jewish.
[00:09:55]  It was like a whole thing.
[00:09:56]  Oh, she was not.
[00:09:57]  She's not Jewish.
[00:09:58]  I'm sorry.
[00:09:59]  Anyway, I won't apologize for the truth.
[00:10:01]  The media spectacle outside the courthouse was pretty wild.
[00:10:09]  The sheer amount of British and European tablets.
[00:10:13]  Oh my God.
[00:10:14]  I will say, it felt like every single person, even every single person was the older gentleman we were staying next to in line, too.
[00:10:21]  New York accent or, you know, Brooklyn.
[00:10:24]  Oh, the German guy?
[00:10:25]  He's not German.
[00:10:26]  Oh, he's not.
[00:10:27]  He just worked for the Germans.
[00:10:28]  That's what they always say.
[00:10:29]  Exactly.
[00:10:30]  Well, yes.
[00:10:31]  But yeah, even that guy, who I'm like, well, this man must work for a national television station in America or a local one.
[00:10:39]  You know, by national, I mean American.
[00:10:41]  No, works for the Germans.
[00:10:43]  Yeah.
[00:10:44]  Yeah, a lot of Euros there.
[00:10:46]  Yeah.
[00:10:47]  But we stood in line for, I would say, three hours.
[00:10:49]  Yeah, three hours.
[00:10:51]  And then we stood in another line for another hour, basically.
[00:10:54]  Yes.
[00:10:56]  There's also been a lot of fake news about this, so we should be clear.
[00:10:59]  You like federal court does not allow any recording or any kind of electronic devices.
[00:11:05]  Yes.
[00:11:05]  Pool reporters.
[00:11:06]  So reporters that strictly cover like SDNY in this instance, I guess, are allowed to bring cell phones in.
[00:11:14]  Yes.
[00:11:15]  Because there are like, there's a very small amount of people who are able to like basically live tweet in.
[00:11:20]  Yes.
[00:11:20]  Everybody else, they're very strict.
[00:11:23]  They took one of my jewels.
[00:11:25]  Did they really?
[00:11:26]  Yeah, but baby doll.
[00:11:28]  You think I did.
[00:11:28]  I put a whole pack in there.
[00:11:29]  Here's the thing that you do.
[00:11:30]  You always put it on your person.
[00:11:32]  Here's the thing that you do with something like that.
[00:11:35]  I love that phrase.
[00:11:36]  You bring your person.
[00:11:37]  Two.
[00:11:38]  You bring two, and so they catch you with one, and then they don't look at the other one.
[00:11:43]  Like you don't think to look for the second.
[00:11:46]  And so you're like, what kind of psycho would have two on them?
[00:11:48]  Exactly.
[00:11:49]  A brilliant one.
[00:11:50]  I brought three paths.
[00:11:53]  So I was, of course, able to bring it in.
[00:11:55]  But no, they confiscate everyone's electronics and they give you a nice little metal tag.
[00:11:59]  Yeah.
[00:12:00]  The actual getting into court itself, the actual courtroom, was because of both COVID protocols and just limited space in general.
[00:12:09]  Everyone, all the journalists there were like, no one was even trying to get into court.
[00:12:14]  Yeah, I think that maybe like three or four, maybe five credentialed members of the press were able to get into the actual courtroom.
[00:12:22]  Everything else was put into what they call overflow rooms, which are basically like unused courtrooms.
[00:12:28]  But the kind of courtroom, I was looking around at it, and it looks like as if there was like a family courtroom in a Hilton.
[00:12:34]  Yeah.
[00:12:35]  Do you know what I mean?
[00:12:35]  Like it looks like an event space almost.
[00:12:38]  It had kind of the illusion of being like nice, but it wasn't also.
[00:12:42]  No, it had Wayfair written all over the place.
[00:12:43]  They left a lot.
[00:12:44]  Yeah, I know.
[00:12:45]  So is the whole case.
[00:12:46]  But they left a lot.
[00:12:47]  They actually left a lot of court documents on the floor, which very weird.
[00:12:53]  I read a lot of people.
[00:12:54]  Did you notice the carpet too?
[00:12:56]  No.
[00:12:57]  The carpet is like all like star print, like Circle Star Print America.
[00:13:05]  It's like, but it looks very 80s.
[00:13:07]  It's like if the Portland airport were like extremely patriotic for what it is.
[00:13:11]  Thankfully, never flown into Portland.
[00:13:13]  Well, then you don't know what to do.
[00:13:14]  Never do that again.
[00:13:15]  Never do that.
[00:13:16]  Our alternative listeners do.
[00:13:17]  But yeah, so our overflow room was actually smaller than the other ones.
[00:13:22]  Yes.
[00:13:22]  There was, because of COVID, there was only like 17 people allowed in this thing.
[00:13:27]  And it's a pretty big courtroom.
[00:13:28]  And I'm like, for real?
[00:13:30]  Yes.
[00:13:31]  And so we were in there with a handful of like other journalists.
[00:13:36]  Well, not other.
[00:13:37]  I want to say other because we're not journalists.
[00:13:38]  But a handful of journalists from like sort of mainstream websites.
[00:13:43]  Yes.
[00:13:44]  We shan't name names.
[00:13:45]  We won't name names.
[00:13:46]  We don't want, you know, you don't want to be a target association with us because I did give these guys all a couple, you know, key bumps.
[00:13:53]  But then also from Veteran Liberty News and then a guy who fell asleep and was snoring quite loudly.
[00:14:00]  I feel like he was the boyfriend of the girl reporter.
[00:14:04]  That, if that lady, that woman was dressed crazy.
[00:14:08]  She was in cozy clothes.
[00:14:10]  I mean, it wasn't my taste of cozy.
[00:14:11]  Too cozy of clothes.
[00:14:12]  But yeah, no, she was in sweatpants.
[00:14:14]  Yes.
[00:14:15]  It's federal court.
[00:14:16]  Let's pull it together.
[00:14:17]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:18]  And then, well, actually, one of Epstein's victims was there.
[00:14:22]  Yes.
[00:14:23]  She was.
[00:14:24]  Yeah.
[00:14:24]  And I talked to her, she was quite nice.
[00:14:26]  Talked to her for a little while.
[00:14:27]  Yes.
[00:14:29]  But I got to say, so as we've covered on the show before, basically what has happened so far in court, or most of what has happened, is they have been winnowing down the jury.
[00:14:40]  Whittling.
[00:14:40]  Winnowing and whittling.
[00:14:43]  You winnow and you can do both.
[00:14:45]  You can winnow and whittle.
[00:14:47]  I'm sticking to this.
[00:14:48]  I'm right.
[00:14:49]  I know.
[00:14:49]  I just really like hearing you say it.
[00:14:52]  But they have been slowly cutting down this jury.
[00:14:58]  And now, I think today there was about 50 people left.
[00:15:02]  Or there was supposed to be 50 people left.
[00:15:05]  However.
[00:15:06]  Someone just straight up didn't show.
[00:15:08]  Well, no, they forgot to show.
[00:15:10]  So while we were in line to get in, in fact, we were in the second of the lines that we were in.
[00:15:15]  So actually within the courthouse, you know, waiting to go through security.
[00:15:20]  The guards rushed up a couple of people who were quite late because it had already started before 99.
[00:15:26]  It basically started right at 8.45, I believe.
[00:15:29]  I think right at 9.
[00:15:30]  But by that point, literally maybe 15 people were actually in there.
[00:15:35]  And so they rushed these two people who were late to get in.
[00:15:38]  But then the 50th man forgot to show up or woman, but I'm assuming it's a guy, forgot to show up.
[00:15:45]  And it's unclear if he ever actually did.
[00:15:47]  I mean, maybe he just decided he didn't want to.
[00:15:50]  Yes.
[00:15:51]  Well, this caused quite a delay, and in fact...
[00:15:54]  Oh my god, it was so annoying.
[00:15:56]  No, dude.
[00:15:56]  I mean, this seems like a million years ago by now, but I will say the majority of the morning and well into the afternoon was taken up over whether Judge Alice and Nathan could get the phone number and get in contact with one of the jurors' workplaces so that she could arrange some sort of financial thing for them.
[00:16:17]  Yeah, basically the alternate, because this guy didn't show up, they had to pull in an alternate.
[00:16:23]  And then the alternate was like, I'm going to claim financial hardship.
[00:16:28]  And she was like, what's up with that?
[00:16:31]  And he's like, I only get two weeks paid.
[00:16:33]  And she's like, so then at one point, either someone, I can't remember if it was someone from the prosecution or the defense, but they raised their hand and they're like, you know, Lady Justice, Lady Justice, actually, sometimes if it's a large company, you can appeal to their HR department.
[00:16:48]  So then I swear, I swear to God, this is what happened for two hours.
[00:16:52]  We're hearing back and forth, Judge Allison Nathan being like, okay, HR has 10 minutes to call me back to let me know if this guy, and if he can't, do we want another juror?

=== Notes at Cafe Lorenzo (12:20) ===

[00:17:04]  And then both sides arguing back and forth about whether or not someone was accepting.
[00:17:08]  Bobby was not having to.
[00:17:09]  I almost blew my brains out.
[00:17:11]  Yes.
[00:17:12]  I actually, I said I was going to blow my brains out.
[00:17:14]  Yeah, and then we hushed you and said, don't say that.
[00:17:16]  This is federal court.
[00:17:18]  I did keep unfortunately saying stuff like that.
[00:17:20]  But also.
[00:17:21]  We need to work on quickly.
[00:17:23]  We quickly made friends with that security guard in our courtroom.
[00:17:25]  And so we were, he was, he had, yeah, he was great.
[00:17:29]  I just had my mask off and was fucking blast and jeweled in the entire time.
[00:17:34]  Yeah, we know.
[00:17:35]  I shouldn't brag about that, though, because I don't want to jinx myself in the future.
[00:17:37]  And you will.
[00:17:38]  I will.
[00:17:39]  Yeah.
[00:17:40]  But let's get to the good stuff.
[00:17:42]  Let's get to the good stuff.
[00:17:43]  Okay, so I will say, like the majority of the beginning part of the day was taken up by that.
[00:17:49]  However, we eventually got all of that sorted out.
[00:17:54]  And then to the opening remarks, not, of course, before a, actually, no, you had a little sojourn where you actually met some people that we've talked about, or not met, but you were in close proximity to a couple of people we've talked about on the show before, some Maxwell siblings.
[00:18:11]  Yeah.
[00:18:11]  Yeah, so Brace was taking a nap, and he was like, baby, get me a coffee.
[00:18:16]  And then he proceeded to drink my coffee, which is weird.
[00:18:18]  Anyway, it was milk and it made my stomach hurt.
[00:18:20]  So meanwhile, I made friends with some people, naturally.
[00:18:24]  And we went downstairs to the cafeteria, which is actually called Cafe Lorenzo.
[00:18:29]  And let me tell you a little fun thing that happened down at Cafe Lorenzo.
[00:18:33]  Okay, I'm going to see my song I made up about it afterwards.
[00:18:36]  Okay.
[00:18:37]  Well, so I'm looking at the salad options.
[00:18:39]  Terrible.
[00:18:40]  I split the last Caesar salad with the gal.
[00:18:43]  And to my left, who do I see but Isabel Maxwell herself?
[00:18:49]  White beret, crow-like face, hunched over with Ian.
[00:18:58]  It's so wonderful that these siblings can all reunite here.
[00:19:02]  Yeah, they're having a little Thanksgiving meal together.
[00:19:04]  They were laughing and chuckling along.
[00:19:06]  So they were having a grand old time down at Cafe Lorenzo.
[00:19:10]  I gotta say, it's interesting that only these two siblings have sort of decided to show out and give their support for her.
[00:19:16]  But Isabel has been a pretty constant picture at these proceedings.
[00:19:19]  Yeah, she has.
[00:19:20]  And of course, Ian is ride or die for Ghillain.
[00:19:23]  Yeah.
[00:19:23]  Which is interesting because he sort of seems like the dummy of the family.
[00:19:28]  Now, before we get into the opening statements, which is what we heard today, which was very exciting, let's talk about her.
[00:19:36]  Ghillain.
[00:19:38]  Yes.
[00:19:39]  Ivory sweater.
[00:19:40]  I know that's what everyone's thinking.
[00:19:42]  What is she wearing?
[00:19:43]  Ivory sweater.
[00:19:44]  Ivory sweater.
[00:19:44]  Not flat.
[00:19:45]  Kind of a balloon sleeve.
[00:19:50]  Let's see.
[00:19:50]  What did I write in my notes that she had.
[00:19:52]  They're not nice.
[00:19:53]  I read them over your shoulder.
[00:19:55]  Yeah.
[00:19:56]  Sassy Bob, not a Hirschberger, but 90s nonetheless.
[00:20:01]  Okay, that's Sanskrit to me.
[00:20:02]  Yeah, well, my lady fans will know what I'm saying there.
[00:20:07]  No, she did not.
[00:20:08]  Now, you know, we're looking at it on a video screen, but I got to say, what that gives us is a much better advantage for actually seeing her.
[00:20:18]  And she was having a decent time.
[00:20:21]  She did not look phased whatsoever.
[00:20:25]  No, no, she was pretty active during most of it, taking notes.
[00:20:29]  There was one part during the opening, there was one sort of segment During the prosecution's little speech, there, where she was, she was, as far as I could tell from my vantage point, because obviously it's not zoomed in on her face or anything, but she had stopped taking notes and sort of moved her chair back and was just staring at the lawyer speaking.
[00:20:52]  Yeah.
[00:20:52]  And so, which was not, and did not seem like she was emanating, you know, joy in that moment.
[00:20:58]  But overall, I will say, seemed in high spirits.
[00:21:02]  Yeah, so let's talk about the opening statement.
[00:21:05]  So, we come up from Cafe Lorenzo.
[00:21:07]  Bryce wakes up from his nap.
[00:21:09]  Allison Nathan, you know, welcomes the jury back in the room.
[00:21:14]  And the assistant U.S. attorney, Pomerance is her last name, gets up and she gives the kind of opening remarks for the prosecution, the thing that you see in the movies, you know, or the TV shows.
[00:21:29]  Now, it's interesting because later on, Maureen Comey was the one who was questioning the first witness and I assume is kind of handling the front of the case that she did not do the opening remarks.
[00:21:45]  No, and I gotta say, so prior to this, the judge Allison Nathan had actually asked both the prosecution and defense how long their remarks would be, like the opening statement for both sides would be and the prosecution said about 25 minutes.
[00:22:01]  And Bobby gave a very like, well, maybe around an hour.
[00:22:06]  Turned out to be a little bit more.
[00:22:07]  I got a lot to say about Bobby.
[00:22:08]  Yes.
[00:22:10]  And it was, I gotta say, well, we'll deal with the prosecution first, but it was, I thought it was okay.
[00:22:19]  I think it went better than you did.
[00:22:21]  Yeah, I'm okay.
[00:22:22]  So I want to paint a little picture.
[00:22:23]  This is kind of coverage you don't get from other outlets.
[00:22:27]  Pomerance is, I would say, a young, she's a young woman.
[00:22:34]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:35]  Her voice is very young sounding.
[00:22:39]  Yes.
[00:22:40]  And I would say that she seemed a bit nervous.
[00:22:44]  It's a huge case, understandable.
[00:22:46]  And she kind of maybe hit her stride, I'd say maybe three quarters of the way through.
[00:22:51]  She started to feel a bit more confident.
[00:22:53]  But I do not think that it was very strong.
[00:22:58]  No, I agree.
[00:23:00]  It wasn't very strong.
[00:23:01]  Now, she opens and she starts talking.
[00:23:04]  She says, you know, I'm going to tell you a story about a girl named Jane, who's actually victim number one in the case.
[00:23:13]  And she says that Jane was approached, you know, by a man and a woman at a fine arts camp, summer camp, and then, you know, was proceeded to like be approached by them to do, like to hang out and befriended by them.
[00:23:33]  And then as the kind of relationship developed, was asked to come visit them in Florida, was asked to, you know, whatever.
[00:23:39]  It becomes very clear that she's telling the story of Epstein and Maxwell and victim number one, Jane.
[00:23:46]  Yes.
[00:23:47]  And she opens up in this sort of like, I feel like very law and ordery way.
[00:23:53]  Like, I want to tell you a story about a young girl named Jane.
[00:23:56]  Yes.
[00:23:57]  Which is not Jane's actual name.
[00:24:00]  But she's going by Jane.
[00:24:01]  She's going by Jane.
[00:24:02]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:24:04]  And this is actually a story I believe we've heard before, either that or just the same.
[00:24:10]  I mean, Epstein was, this was kind of his MO for a while, but this took place at Interlocken, the summer camp.
[00:24:17]  Summer camp, but also school too.
[00:24:19]  But it was an art summer camp as well.
[00:24:23]  And she describes, and she really focuses, I feel like, on victim number one for most of her opening statement, or at least that's really like where it really shines the strongest.
[00:24:35]  But she essentially describes Maxwell and Epstein grooming this girl and then taking advantage of her sexually and transporting her across state lines.
[00:24:45]  Yeah.
[00:24:46]  I want to say that like, I, yeah, I was not feeling this.
[00:24:50]  I said, I wrote in my notes, more actors should be lawyers because this lady is nothing like the ones on TV.
[00:24:56]  She sucks.
[00:24:57]  Yeah.
[00:24:59]  I think that's most lawyers speaking.
[00:25:01]  It was a very haltingly, like, it was sounds like a child.
[00:25:05]  It was aggressive honor student vibe.
[00:25:07]  I felt like it was very haltingly read and it could have been done better.
[00:25:12]  But also, I feel like she used a lot stronger language than I thought they were going to use.
[00:25:17]  She did.
[00:25:17]  You know, she directly accused Maxwell of molesting these girls several times and of leading.
[00:25:22]  Like she didn't, she didn't, she really cut to the chase much more than Bobby did.
[00:25:26]  Absolutely.
[00:25:26]  Whether that is better lawyering, I don't really know.
[00:25:30]  Yeah.
[00:25:30]  But she was pretty concise about it.
[00:25:32]  She also really, and I, you know, I took notice of this in my notes.
[00:25:37]  She, she really hammered in the class dynamics where she really said, you know, they were preying on poor, poor girls.
[00:25:47]  They were these wealthy, you know, they had so much access and they were promising, you know, Epstein was like, I'm going to be your quote unquote mentor.
[00:25:55]  I'm going to pay for your schools.
[00:25:56]  I'm going to help you get jobs.
[00:25:58]  I'm going to introduce you to all these people.
[00:26:00]  And really kind of preying on the, you know, absurd sort of class dynamics at work in this case.
[00:26:10]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:11]  And she, so I want to be clear here too, is that like most of these charges revolve around basically Ghelane, for lack of a better word, and I think the prosecution's aware of that too, grooming these girls in order to sort of present them to Jeffrey Epstein for sex.
[00:26:29]  Yeah.
[00:26:30]  And that is really the thrust, I think, of the case here is like, how much did she essentially was she the one that made this happen?
[00:26:41]  Right.
[00:26:42]  Which is also like, that's not a legal thing.
[00:26:44]  Like, grooming is really like a term that we use in conversation that is kind of, especially over the past like five, 10 years, has kind of entered the popular lexicon, but is not like.
[00:27:00]  There's not like a strict definition of that.
[00:27:02]  Yes.
[00:27:03]  And so it becomes a kind of like thing that is very much going to be, you know, the site of contestation between the two, you know?
[00:27:11]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:27:12]  Exactly what that actually constitutes and what that means.
[00:27:16]  Judging by a lot of the filings, especially the ones that are revolving around like what the use of like expert witnesses, that's actually, I think, going to be a pretty pivotal part of this, not to be alliterative there.
[00:27:27]  But I think that we're going to hear a lot of two things I predict.
[00:27:31]  A lot of arguments about the definition of grooming and whether that is even a thing.
[00:27:36]  Who's to say what grooming is?
[00:27:38]  I guarantee we're going to hear something along those lines.
[00:27:40]  And also a lot of quibbling about the age of consent, which I'll get to.
[00:27:45]  This is going to be one of, this is going to make the Libertarian Party Convention look like sex night at the old folks' home.
[00:27:53]  There's going to be so much talk about age of consent here.
[00:27:55]  Yeah, it's a very Reddit.
[00:27:58]  Bobby is chomping at the bit to talk.
[00:28:00]  Okay, so I will say one thing.
[00:28:02]  So I noticed both kind of rhythms in both the opening statements here.
[00:28:07]  And in the prosecutions, this was really apparent is that they would describe these sort of sex acts that are like Jeffrey Epstein's sort of like, you know, his degrading these women or these girls rather and is, you know, molesting them and stuff.
[00:28:23]  And then lay out how Ghelane facilitated that.
[00:28:25]  Yes.
[00:28:26]  And so that was something they would do.
[00:28:27]  They would bring it to Epstein, talk about what he did, and then talk about how Ghelane played a role in that.
[00:28:32]  Yes.
[00:28:32]  And I think that kind of lays out how the case will be.
[00:28:35]  And then they sort of laid out the evidence that they're going to bring in there too.
[00:28:39]  They mentioned, I think, specifically massage tables, schoolgirl outfit, and nude photos, but also flight logs, FedEx records, gift receipts sent, and a bunch of different records of Ghelan and Maxwell's travels outside of the travel log, too.
[00:28:56]  I know there was also talk about trying to get Ghelane's little black book admitted to this.
[00:29:01]  Not exactly sure how that's going to happen.
[00:29:04]  I know there was a bunch of quibbling over whether Epstein's black book could be admitted to this either.
[00:29:10]  But yeah, and they talked about people we're going to hear from, from victims, from relatives of victims.
[00:29:15]  And then she sort of said with a kind of a pregnant pause, after she mentioned that he has private planes, also had private pilots, which, wait, we, you know.

=== Victim's Slippery Language (15:48) ===

[00:29:25]  You just can't stop alliterating.
[00:29:26]  I'm really, I'm telling you right now.
[00:29:29]  Pregnant pause.
[00:29:30]  Liz, I'm looking at you right now, but I don't see you.
[00:29:32]  I see a shadow person, and the shadow person is opening its maw and luring me with its horrible forked role.
[00:29:42]  I don't, but it's not you.
[00:29:43]  I'm just hallucinating because of lack of sleep and overusage of amphetamines.
[00:29:48]  But now, let's talk about, I know you're chomping in the bit to talk about it.
[00:29:53]  Oh, my God.
[00:29:54]  Let's talk about Bobby.
[00:29:56]  Now, astute listeners will remember that we have mentioned Ghillain's attorney, Bobby with an Eye, Bobby Sternheim on the podcast before.
[00:30:07]  Now, we have been in the past very impressed.
[00:30:11]  We've been like, oh, Bobby, you know, Bobby with an eye.
[00:30:13]  This is, you know, she's, I had this vision, this 90s Bobby Brown, you know, Upper West Side, New Yorker, lawyer, criminal defense.
[00:30:24]  Let me tell you, dear listeners, did not disappoint.
[00:30:28]  She was a powerhouse.
[00:30:31]  My God, this woman is a star.
[00:30:34]  It was fucked.
[00:30:35]  It actually, it made me not feel good about this.
[00:30:38]  I wrote down Cruella Cochrane because this woman, now we got to paint a little picture here.
[00:30:45]  And in fact, I did draw a very, I think a very realistic court sketch that we will probably take a photo of and put on.
[00:30:52]  Yeah, I drew, I drew a, we both did our little sketches.
[00:30:55]  We've got parentheses brace version and parentheses Liz.
[00:30:58]  Well, my technically anime version, but yeah.
[00:31:03]  So this woman, first of all, she is like just a presence.
[00:31:07]  Yeah.
[00:31:08]  It is very much like when I was saying, oh, this is, you know, what I said about the prosecution, like she was kind of meek and seemed nervous and, you know, a bit younger.
[00:31:17]  This woman is like the kind of caricature, like cartoon version of a defense lawyer.
[00:31:21]  Absolutely.
[00:31:23]  She literally seemed like something you'd see out of a goddamn family guy.
[00:31:28]  Yeah, I said she looked like Foghorn Leghorn in a wig.
[00:31:31]  Yeah.
[00:31:31]  Yeah.
[00:31:32]  Like she had that vibe where she was just like up there.
[00:31:34]  And I mean, I'm serious.
[00:31:36]  I swear to God, this is how she opens it up, you guys.
[00:31:39]  She says, ever since Eve tempted Adam, women have been blamed for the crimes of men.
[00:31:50]  And literally, everyone in the overflow room we're in, hush.
[00:31:54]  They're like, oh.
[00:31:55]  And then I will say that.
[00:32:00]  Yes, it was a groan.
[00:32:01]  It was an incredible groan.
[00:32:04]  It was like, oh, no.
[00:32:05]  And it just kind of like kept going from there.
[00:32:09]  She said, this is a trial about money.
[00:32:12]  This is a trial about memory.
[00:32:14]  This is a trial about manipulation.
[00:32:16]  Think of the three M's.
[00:32:17]  I mean, I'm telling you, Cruella Cochran, this is this woman.
[00:32:21]  She had it going.
[00:32:23]  She said at one point, pretty early on, she's like, I'm proud to represent Ghillaine Maxwell, which I'm like, well, maybe you don't need to say that.
[00:32:30]  Yeah, it's little too much.
[00:32:33]  Yeah.
[00:32:34]  But she, I think she even said, I stand before you, proud to represent Ghillaine Maxwell.
[00:32:41]  I say, I say, I say.
[00:32:42]  She said, so she, I will say, she, her original, or her original rather, but like the opening part of her statement was really revolved around being like, Ghillain is essentially taking the fall for these men here.
[00:32:59]  She said at one point, she is not like the powerful men, the media moguls that you've read so much about, like sort of obviously making allusions to like Harvey Weinstein and people of that ilk.
[00:33:10]  How she's not like them, I'm not entirely sure because she certainly seems to have been friends with most of them.
[00:33:17]  Yeah.
[00:33:18]  And certainly also is herself one of the most prolific lady pedophiles that I've ever heard of.
[00:33:25]  But she repeated the three M's.
[00:33:26]  I mean, this is where I got the alliteration from.
[00:33:29]  She came back to this refrain so often that it felt like a pop song.
[00:33:33]  She would say, memory, this trial is about memory, manipulation, and money.
[00:33:38]  And so she starts talking about memory first.
[00:33:41]  And the language she uses around this is she's talking about how these victims, and you can tell so-called is just like the back of her throat.
[00:33:52]  Yeah, Their memories have been corrupted.
[00:33:56]  And narcissistic men, not necessarily talking about Epstein, but also about their lawyers, have manipulated them.
[00:34:05]  She said the word groomed very derisively in the very early stages, too, which I was like, this is okay.
[00:34:10]  The battle is on with that.
[00:34:13]  But I thought the thrust of a large part of her argument was that Ghelane herself was a victim.
[00:34:22]  Which that's a gambit.
[00:34:24]  Yeah, it remains to be seen if that's where they're going to go with it.
[00:34:28]  I think what I think the most, I think the thing that resonated with me where I was like, oof, now there's an angle, is she really, she kind of pivoted at one point.
[00:34:39]  And because, like we said, this woman, I mean, she, she did a, look, Bobby's never going to do a type five.
[00:34:44]  This woman went on for like an hour and a half.
[00:34:46]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:34:48]  She was wearing a leather jacket, smoking.
[00:34:50]  Oh, my God.
[00:34:51]  She had a big, like, Glenn.
[00:34:52]  She's very Glenn close.
[00:34:53]  They gave her a mic just like to walk around with.
[00:34:58]  Yeah, she was like playing with the cord too.
[00:35:01]  Yeah, she kept saying, did I do that?
[00:35:03]  Yeah.
[00:35:04]  No, she's kind of pivoted at one point and she said, now remember, like Ghillain is not on trial for Epstein's crimes.
[00:35:11]  Yes.
[00:35:12]  And she said, Ghillaine is a scapegoat, at which point the prosecution objected.
[00:35:17]  Yes.
[00:35:18]  Overruled.
[00:35:20]  Then she said that Epstein's death had left a hole in the victim's pursuit of justice.
[00:35:31]  Like basically saying that when Epstein died, all of this stuff fell apart and they had to kind of cobble it back together in a way.
[00:35:40]  And basically implying that Ghillain is now standing trial for what should have been Epstein's trial.
[00:35:46]  Yes, it was pretty, it was pretty interesting on that because my thinking of that is that they were always, I always thought like SDNY or whoever was, you know, like SDNY was prosecuting him, but like Ghillain is like the person you want to flip on Epstein.
[00:36:01]  Right.
[00:36:02]  And now that Epstein can't be flipped, I feel like her team is being like, well, now I'm taking the brunt of this crime.
[00:36:09]  Well, that was the big rumor, right?
[00:36:11]  Yeah.
[00:36:11]  The big rumor going around was that the state had a case on Epstein and that they were going to arrest Ghillain to flip her.
[00:36:18]  And then when Epstein died, that's why it took so long for them to put this together because they had to kind of reconfigure the case.
[00:36:26]  Yes.
[00:36:27]  And the thing is, so there was a few things where like Bobby, Bobby is much like the snake in the Garden of Eden.
[00:36:36]  Bobby is a smooth talker herself because if you just listen to her and sort of like take it like, you know, like, oh yeah, well, wow, I guess like she sounds so competent and so sure of herself that's like, well, you're like, well, that has to be true.
[00:36:50]  I mean, I obviously wasn't actually thinking this, but she speaks in that very persuasive manner.
[00:36:57]  But there was a few really big, speaking of holes, holes in what she was saying there.
[00:37:03]  So one of her main arguments is that Ghillain was manipulated by Jeffrey Epstein herself.
[00:37:07]  So she's a victim of Epstein too.
[00:37:09]  Now, what she doesn't say there, what she doesn't elaborate on there, obviously very purposely, is what exactly did Epstein manipulate her into doing?
[00:37:19]  Because if Epstein manipulated her into procuring young girls for him, well, too bad, honey.
[00:37:26]  It's still illegal to sex traffic a child.
[00:37:31]  You know, and it's still certainly illegal to molest a child.
[00:37:36]  So it's like, that doesn't really matter there.
[00:37:38]  That's clearly like she's just laying that butter on that toast for the fucking jury to try to get them to like trick them, essentially, right?
[00:37:45]  And like lump Ghillain in with this or at least sow those seeds of doubt.
[00:37:51]  And that was, that was something that I was really like, oh, so everyone's just a victim of Epstein.
[00:37:56]  And really, she kept saying that Epstein compartmentalized.
[00:38:00]  Yeah, I thought that was very funny.
[00:38:01]  She said that Epstein comparted, she said this over and over again, that Epstein compartmentalized, including with his relationship with Ghillain.
[00:38:09]  And I was like, okay, one, that is such an ex-girlfriend thing to say about, you know, be like, oh my God, he was like compartmentalized everything.
[00:38:16]  I didn't even know he was fucking addicted to raid shadow legends.
[00:38:20]  He would never open up about these certain aspects with his mother, or whatever it was.
[00:38:24]  Uh, two, it seems like what they're trying to do is say that Ghillain had no access to all of these other aspects of his life, she was simply a house manager, she was his employee.
[00:38:36]  That actually, this was this is a labor dispute, which I thought was very funny.
[00:38:40]  Uh, that she, you know, in all of her capacity, yes, they had a close relationship.
[00:38:45]  They, you know, dated, then that, you know, they remained friends.
[00:38:48]  It's a little unclear.
[00:38:49]  Everyone's kind of quibbling a little bit on how long the relationship lasted lasted and the nature of the relationship, which is interesting.
[00:38:57]  But so it seems like that's you know, the kind of distancing that they're gonna also try.
[00:39:02]  Oh, absolutely.
[00:39:03]  Yeah, I will say that Bobby kind of like the big chunk of the defense opening statements was really going victim by victim and kind of laying out where they were gonna attack them.
[00:39:17]  You mentioned the age of consent stuff.
[00:39:19]  That's gonna be a big issue.
[00:39:22]  And in fact, there was a huge sidebar that we weren't privy to where Alice and Nathan was arguing with whether or not that could be admissible.
[00:39:30]  Certain like mentions of you know, if it was if the victims were of age or not, because that is, like we said, gonna be like the center of a big debate in the case, which is really fucking boring.
[00:39:43]  It's already started, though.
[00:39:45]  Yeah.
[00:39:47]  But she did kind of lay out, you know, where they're gonna attack them, kind of each victim, you know, kind of what the points they were gonna make.
[00:39:55]  Yeah, I mean, she started with, I think, victim one with Jane.
[00:39:59]  And basically, it's funny because she, it's, it's the way that she talks about Epstein changes how she needs it to, right?
[00:40:08]  Because on one hand, she won't she will lavish praise on Epstein, be like, he was this great philanthropist, he was this excellent mentor.
[00:40:17]  And like, when he's talking about, she didn't say intellectual titan, but she said something like that.
[00:40:21]  I leaned over to you and I was like, dude, he would be like, what's up with what does this got to do with pussy?
[00:40:26]  Exactly.
[00:40:26]  Like, what are you talking about?
[00:40:27]  That's the other thing with the car compartmentalizing stuff.
[00:40:30]  I'm like, dog, he was literally trying to talk about Marvin Minsk about eating pussy.
[00:40:34]  Like, he was not like, what was he compartmentalizing?
[00:40:38]  He had Virginia.
[00:40:40]  He was there to compartmentalize.
[00:40:41]  He is a one-track mind.
[00:40:43]  There's no other tracks.
[00:40:44]  He had his child sex slave give Matt Groenig a foot rub.
[00:40:49]  Like, I believe they called it a foot job.
[00:40:51]  No, it was a regular foot rub.
[00:40:53]  Wait, what's the difference?
[00:40:54]  Oh, yes, regular foot rub.
[00:40:55]  She says nothing untoward.
[00:40:58]  But I also wrote my note: Guy is snoring like crazy this part.
[00:41:03]  It was so loud.
[00:41:04]  But she's like, she was basically.
[00:41:07]  So, I mean, she was essentially saying that there's, you're like, okay, she wasn't even trying to attack the fact that Jane was molested by Epstein or even really bring Ghillain into it.
[00:41:19]  Yeah.
[00:41:19]  But she was saying that, like, well, Epstein was her mentor.
[00:41:22]  She had her brothers around.
[00:41:24]  She had her mother around.
[00:41:26]  Like, you know, these things, like, she was essentially saying that Epstein actually was helping her out and never really dealt with the actual, you know, pedophilic aspects of it, which would stand out to me pretty big.
[00:41:41]  And then she just goes on to, I was out for a second there, but she talked at length about Annie.
[00:41:48]  So she talked at length about Annie, who's victim number two.
[00:41:51]  That's Annie Farmer, whose sister Maria we interviewed for the show.
[00:41:54]  Yes.
[00:41:56]  She says that Annie, at first, did not believe she was a victim.
[00:42:00]  Even in how she kept her diary, she did not believe she was a victim.
[00:42:03]  And that, you know, it wasn't until later that she kind of changes her story.
[00:42:08]  That's a big thing with when, you know, she's attacking each of these victims.
[00:42:14]  That's kind of the memory for the M point that they're always and the money, where she basically says, once the money enters the picture, once the victims, the accusers saw that there could be a payout through the victims fund, they changed their story.
[00:42:32]  And now, you know, they have, now they're part of this case.
[00:42:36]  Now, Annie, she says that Annie had only met Ghillain once and that Ghillain really wasn't even involved in whatever Annie is accusing her of.
[00:42:46]  Yeah, so that's actually sort of the, she was very slippery with her language there when talking about Annie too, because Annie does say that Ghillain was involved in this.
[00:42:56]  Well, then she says, from our perspective, what happened in New Mexico was not illegal conduct.
[00:43:03]  Exactly.
[00:43:03]  And so when she does have to mention that Ghillain did molest these children, she actually really, that's when she pulls in the age of consent stuff.
[00:43:12]  Where it's like, you may not approve of it, but it's not illegal.
[00:43:16]  However, however, where Annie Farmer lived, Arizona, the age of consent was 18 years old.
[00:43:24]  She is taken to New Mexico, where the age of consent, and yes, Bobby, you're right.
[00:43:29]  And curious, you've looked this up.
[00:43:32]  The age of consent is 16.
[00:43:34]  Oh my God.
[00:43:35]  I'm still snoring like this guy right now.
[00:43:37]  I can't.
[00:43:38]  The age of consent talk, I just don't care.
[00:43:40]  Oh, yeah.
[00:43:41]  Oh, well, it's going to play a big factor in the next victim we're talking about.
[00:43:44]  It's so boring.
[00:43:44]  It's so boring.
[00:43:46]  But so there, she got hit with a big objection at that.
[00:43:50]  That's the point.
[00:43:51]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:43:52]  But so then she skips over to victim number three.
[00:43:57]  And this is where, this is the part.
[00:43:59]  So I have been talking to Liz about this for a little while here.
[00:44:03]  I really do not know why the prosecution including this victim in the case.
[00:44:10]  Because this is by far the weakest point of the prosecution's case.
[00:44:16]  This is alleging that Ghillain and Epstein, you know, did the similar sort of things with this girl as they did with the other girls, except it took place in Britain.
[00:44:25]  Yes.
[00:44:26]  And then they said that whatever took place in Britain was above the age of consent in the UK.
[00:44:31]  Then she was brought to the U.S., but what happened, what she claims happened in the U.S., was above the age of consent in the United States.
[00:44:40]  Yes.
[00:44:41]  And from what we understand, that's true.
[00:44:44]  It's possibly, I think it is true.
[00:44:47]  I don't want to say what we're talking about.
[00:44:48]  That's what we were thinking.
[00:44:49]  We've been going over over the past couple of days, and it's very confusing.
[00:44:52]  Yes, but it is, I mean, this has been a big point even before this trial started, or the trial started, but before the actual opening today, is there's been a lot of back and forth between the different sides and the judge about this.
[00:45:06]  And I got to say, I don't think that her, she's really going to be included in all of this.
[00:45:11]  In fact, it really does not look like she is.

=== Victims Compensation Controversy (07:36) ===

[00:45:13]  I think the judge actually was like, this doesn't really count.
[00:45:17]  Because it's sort of unclear whether she was 17 or 18 when a lot of this happened.
[00:45:21]  He was definitely 17 when it first occurred, which in England is above the age of consent.
[00:45:27]  And so it is, it's, yeah.
[00:45:32]  And the defense, I got to say, painted a tough picture because they're like, well, she stayed in touch with Epstein for 10 years, long past, you know, her 18th birthday, you know, literally 10 years after that.
[00:45:42]  She wrote to Epstein when he was in jail.
[00:45:44]  It's like, she basically paints it as one of Epstein's girlfriends.
[00:45:47]  Now, I don't know the identity of this woman.
[00:45:49]  No, and you know what she mentioned too, Bobby mentioned, is that she was in a relationship prior to all of this with a prominent older British man who was Gillian's friend, like her mate at uni, I'm assuming.
[00:46:05]  Boris Johnson.
[00:46:08]  It doesn't, she didn't say, I'm like, name names, name names.
[00:46:12]  Yes.
[00:46:12]  Not a lot of names are being named.
[00:46:14]  Not a lot of names are being named today.
[00:46:16]  No, well, certainly Bobby's not going to name any names.
[00:46:19]  No.
[00:46:20]  And then she gets on to minor victim four.
[00:46:23]  Yes.
[00:46:23]  And she's basically like, she's a drug addict.
[00:46:27]  It was awful hearing this country.
[00:46:29]  This one was really like despicable.
[00:46:32]  Yeah.
[00:46:32]  Bobby was talking about that.
[00:46:33]  There's a lot of blaming the victim.
[00:46:35]  I mean, the like classic defense blaming the victim move that like almost looks comical like you're watching Law and Order.
[00:46:41]  Yeah, it felt very 90s because she was like, well, she was a drug addict when.
[00:46:46]  And then sort of the dot, dot, dot there is, yeah, when she was being taken advantage of by this rich guy.
[00:46:53]  And sex trafficked.
[00:46:54]  Yes.
[00:46:54]  Yes.
[00:46:55]  So I'm sure she was on drugs.
[00:46:58]  She was a victim of abuse that your client did.
[00:47:01]  Yeah.
[00:47:02]  This was really disgusting stuff.
[00:47:05]  Yes.
[00:47:05]  So Bobby talked about how when this girl, who they call Carolyn, originally went to the FBI, spoke with the FBI in 07, She talked only about Sarah Kellen and Jeffrey Epstein, not mentioning Ghelane.
[00:47:19]  Yes.
[00:47:20]  And Bobby says here is that she only mentions Ghelane now because of the Victims Compensation Fund, which you talked about earlier.
[00:47:29]  So for those of you who don't know, the Victims Compensation Fund is a fund of like $150 million, maybe even more than that, administered by Epstein's estate, which pays out money to victims of Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:47:42]  Yes.
[00:47:44]  Now, the big thing that Bobby really hammered on was that the way this fund worked is that if you made a kind of made a complaint and you said, okay, I'm a victim, these are the dates, whatever, there was no one there to verify.
[00:47:58]  She's saying, she's alleging, no one actually verified these claims.
[00:48:02]  Yeah.
[00:48:03]  They were never like checked against anything.
[00:48:05]  It was like basically, if it hit a certain amount of criteria, then different amounts were handed out.
[00:48:12]  Yes.
[00:48:12]  And so what she's saying is that regardless of whether or not the vict what she would say is an alleged victim was paid out by the compensation fund, that none of those like accusations have been checked just by the fact, mere fact that they've been paid out.
[00:48:30]  Does that make sense?
[00:48:31]  Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:48:31]  Like it's not a seal on anything.
[00:48:33]  And she's really throwing it out there that like now we are doing it and this is what you're seeing.
[00:48:39]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:48:40]  And she's like, she was also saying she was accusing victim number three, too, the British one, of trying to get a visa by accusing Ghelane Maxwell of this sort of stuff.
[00:48:48]  And all of them, all four, she was saying they are putting Maxwell on the spot in order to get more money.
[00:48:55]  And she named the amount of money that each of these girls got from the victims' compensation fund.
[00:49:00]  Yes.
[00:49:01]  And she really goes after the lawyers.
[00:49:03]  Oh boy, does she?
[00:49:04]  Not just the lawyers for the government, which then, you know, that got Alice and Nathan's attention, and there was a whole kerfluffle about that.
[00:49:13]  Yes, there was.
[00:49:13]  There was a law, and I think that was the longest sidebar.
[00:49:16]  Yeah, where she basically, I'm assuming, but I think she was basically like, don't talk shit about the attorney.
[00:49:20]  It's like, be respectful, Bobby.
[00:49:22]  And Bobby was like, you know, I'm awesome back where I'm from.
[00:49:28]  We will never do that.
[00:49:31]  But specifically, she really was talking about the lawyers for these girls who were helping them get paid out by the compensation fund.
[00:49:39]  Now, I got to say, we saw one of those lawyers today.
[00:49:44]  We want to mention this.
[00:49:45]  I'm not going to name names.
[00:49:46]  Let's not name names.
[00:49:47]  But I'm just going to give a vibe.
[00:49:49]  The vibe was bad.
[00:49:50]  It was not a good vibe.
[00:49:52]  No, no, to be clear, he's not a lawyer involved in this case.
[00:49:54]  No, he is not.
[00:49:56]  No, he was there with his client, but I didn't like him.
[00:49:59]  Yeah, at one point, he basically mentioned taking on a QAnon client who's been banned from social media.
[00:50:04]  Yeah, he was wearing some ostentatious designer clothes.
[00:50:07]  Yeah, my man was quite ostentatious.
[00:50:10]  It just was not a, It added to the cartoon vibe.
[00:50:16]  Yeah, he spent most of the day not like getting up and sitting down.
[00:50:20]  Like he was out up and down out of his seat the entire time.
[00:50:22]  He was in schmoozen.
[00:50:24]  And, you know, I saw him.
[00:50:25]  I went up to the restroom on the seventh floor at one point, and he was standing there talking to actually another victim who was there, but who's not his client?
[00:50:34]  And he was talking to her about the, you know, major book deals that he had secured for someone affiliated with Michael Jackson, now, which I cannot even remember who it was, but it was literally like he was talking about how he got like Michael Jackson's gardener a book deal.
[00:50:48]  And it's like, my man, he was like, it felt very personal injury lawyer.
[00:50:54]  You know what I'm saying?
[00:50:54]  Yes, yeah, yeah.
[00:50:55]  And it just was sort of heavy to witness.
[00:51:00]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:01]  Now, I will say, that felt like when Bobby was talking about this, this felt like a lot of sort of not to use too, you know, out there of parlance, but a little bit of shade at Virginia Jeffrey.
[00:51:12]  Oh, yes.
[00:51:14]  Because a lot of this evidence that we have about Epstein, Ghillain, and stuff comes from Virginia's civil case against Ghillaine Maxwell.
[00:51:25]  And I got to say, the stuff that appeared in that, including Ghelane's own testimony, does not make her look good.
[00:51:31]  No, not at all.
[00:51:32]  And so I know that Bobby is fighting tooth and nail to get basically any of that evidence out of Florida dismissed out of this case.
[00:51:43]  And so I have a feeling that there was also sort of like she's trying to prejudice the, I don't know, I'm not trying to use legal terms here, but she's trying to prejudice the jury essentially against these girls being like, you know, they're actually being taken advantage of by these rich men.
[00:51:56]  Yeah.
[00:51:58]  And so there was a lot of insinuations because in this day and age, you can't be like, these are money-hungry whores, right?
[00:52:06]  But that was the subtext to what a lot of Bobby was saying.
[00:52:11]  So after they finished closing statements, there was a little bit of a break.
[00:52:15]  And at this point, it was like, just let us go.
[00:52:18]  Yeah.
[00:52:19]  Oh, my gosh.
[00:52:20]  It's so late already.
[00:52:21]  No.
[00:52:22]  Enter prosecution witness number one.
[00:52:26]  Call his ass to the bench.
[00:52:28]  Larry Viskoski, the pilot.
[00:52:31]  Lawrence.
[00:52:32]  Well, Lawrence, but I've always known him as Larry.
[00:52:34]  Yeah, he goes by Larry.
[00:52:35]  The poll.
[00:52:36]  The poll.
[00:52:37]  Yes.
[00:52:37]  Larry, who has a southern accent, like every pilot for some reason.
[00:52:42]  We are actually, because his testimony was sort of cut off, I think he testified for about 35, maybe 40 minutes.

=== Larry's Testimony Cut Short (01:35) ===

[00:52:50]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:52:51]  They didn't get too far.
[00:52:51]  They didn't get too far.
[00:52:52]  It was a lot of, you know, submitting a picture of Ghillain and him going, yes, that's Ghillain Maxwell.
[00:52:58]  Yeah.
[00:52:59]  But we are going to hear more from Larry tomorrow.
[00:53:03]  And there's no reason to really get into his testimony now.
[00:53:06]  Present it all tomorrow, once we see the kind of shape that it takes, from the prosecution and then the cross-examination.
[00:53:13]  Yeah yeah uh, that we found out some kind of interesting tidbits during his uh, his testimony, which we will bring out tomorrow with the rest of it.
[00:53:23]  Yeah, because right now I gotta say, ladies and gentlemen, it's eight o'clock oh, my god, I i'm gonna cry.
[00:53:28]  I have to go to bed i'm, I feel like i'm gonna, but he says, Sweepy I, i'm not even sweepy I, i'm on a new, i'm on a new, there's a new me in town baby, new you.
[00:53:41]  Yeah, but you know what?
[00:53:43]  Tomorrow, the true crew, we're gonna be there bright and early once again.
[00:53:48]  Day two baby, yeah.
[00:53:50]  So with that i'm Liz.
[00:53:52]  My name, of course, Is Brace the Barrister Belden.
[00:53:56]  We have with us Young Chomsky, my court-appointed producer.
[00:54:02]  Well, we'll see you next time, which is tomorrow.
[00:54:04]  Bye.
[00:54:22]  Jeff Jack, Jeffrey Lexter.
[00:54:24]  Come in.
[00:54:25]  Come in.