True Anon Truth Feed - Episode 182: Sirhan Sirhan
Aired: 2021-09-05
Duration: 01:15:49


=== Write a Letter Please (01:49) ===

[00:00:00]  Hello listener, Brace here.
[00:00:01]  Have I ever told you how much you mean to me?
[00:00:03]  How much I care about you?
[00:00:04]  How much I think about you day and night?
[00:00:06]  Huh.
[00:00:07]  I never did.
[00:00:07]  Well, it's time for me to do that now.
[00:00:09]  And now I have a favor to ask you.
[00:00:11]  Do you know how to write a letter?
[00:00:13]  You take a pen, you take a piece of paper, you write something on that piece of paper, then you put it on an envelope and send it in an envelope, actually, but who's counting?
[00:00:21]  I need you to write a letter to Governor Gavin Newsom.
[00:00:24]  No, I am not asking you to remind him that his ex-girlfriend is now married to Donald Trump Jr.
[00:00:29]  I am simply asking you to write him a letter asking him to parole Sir Hanser Han as the law intended.
[00:00:36]  The address for that is 1303 10th Street, Suite 1173, Sacramento, California, 95814.
[00:00:45]  You don't need to write a whole essay.
[00:00:46]  You don't need to write all the different facts of the case.
[00:00:48]  Simply ask him in as normal and not weird a way as possible to parole Sir Hans Sirhan because that is what the law demands.
[00:00:56]  That's what the state of California has said that they're going to do.
[00:00:59]  And don't fuck with that, Mr. Newsom.
[00:01:02]  Anyways, yes, thank you very much for doing that.
[00:01:04]  I'm going to put the link to the governor's webpage in the description here.
[00:01:08]  And we're also going to put the address so you don't have to rewind this part and listen to it all over again.
[00:01:14]  Anyways, the episode is going to start now.
[00:01:19]  I tried getting really into Jack Kennedy, remember?
[00:01:22]  Yeah, but at the end of the day, you just want him like every woman.
[00:01:26]  I actually don't find him attractive.
[00:01:28]  That's because you only like Jewish guys.
[00:01:30]  Have you seen?
[00:01:31]  Okay, so, okay, you can, there's photos of him where you're like, whoa, especially after he gets to the White House.
[00:01:40]  The boost.
[00:01:42]  The booze that, what it does to his face is like, it's like, you know when Leo got roll fat?

=== Why We Left Google (05:00) ===

[00:01:50]  No.
[00:01:51]  My man here, Chomsky knows.
[00:01:53]  He, yeah, Leo also had that kind of, it's, I call it whiskey bloat.
[00:02:00]  It definitely looks like, you know, straight up down in the fat.
[00:02:08]  People are stupid because it's actually, if you drink enough, you, you pass that and you become handsome again.
[00:02:14]  I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Leaving Las Vegas, but Nicholas Cage in that is so just mad.
[00:02:22]  I was going to say that you're wrong, but I do think that that is a fascinating counterexample.
[00:02:28]  But you know what?
[00:02:28]  I will say, the exception is what proves the rule.
[00:02:32]  Whenever anyone says that, that doesn't make any sense.
[00:02:36]  How do exceptions prove the rule?
[00:02:38]  It's called the scientific method.
[00:02:40]  Yeah, here's the thing.
[00:02:43]  That's right.
[00:02:44]  You're speechless.
[00:02:45]  Logic defeats, hello hello hello hello hello hello, hello.
[00:03:19]  This is my new character, the person who can only say hello.
[00:03:25]  It's the only word they know.
[00:03:27]  Classic, classic bit.
[00:03:30]  What if you were mind-controlled?
[00:03:33]  Uh-huh.
[00:03:34]  And they just hypnotized you so you could only say hello.
[00:03:37]  That's my new character.
[00:03:38]  That's my, that's, well, wait, your characters of I was mind-controlled to only say this is okay.
[00:03:44]  We're going to need to.
[00:03:46]  You spent seven years in improv grad school at McGill.
[00:03:52]  And this is the character.
[00:03:54]  You can't talk about that.
[00:03:55]  What?
[00:03:56]  No, I can't say it now.
[00:03:57]  You can't say it now.
[00:03:58]  I can't say it because we're recording.
[00:04:00]  They'll tell it to me after.
[00:04:01]  Oh, my God.
[00:04:02]  Liz just texted to me.
[00:04:04]  Holy shit.
[00:04:05]  Dude, you really did go to, you did go to improv school for seven years?
[00:04:09]  Okay.
[00:04:10]  Hello, everyone.
[00:04:10]  I'm Liz.
[00:04:11]  My name is, what's he going to say next?
[00:04:14]  A polka dot?
[00:04:15]  A banana?
[00:04:16]  Something wacky?
[00:04:17]  No, my name is Brace.
[00:04:19]  And we're joined by producer Young Chomsky.
[00:04:22]  The podcast is called, What is It?
[00:04:24]  Something random?
[00:04:25]  No, it's the same thing.
[00:04:25]  It is every, not even every week, every three.
[00:04:29]  Why do we do this podcast so much?
[00:04:30]  My name is with the podcast.
[00:04:31]  It's called Truanon.
[00:04:33]  Now I've gone fucked up.
[00:04:34]  Hi.
[00:04:35]  I don't know who you're talking to.
[00:04:37]  I'm talking to a beautiful woman standing right behind my computer.
[00:04:44]  That's your monitor.
[00:04:45]  Hello, everyone.
[00:04:46]  We have a new episode.
[00:04:49]  Uh-huh.
[00:04:50]  Yeah, we have a new episode.
[00:04:52]  What do you think?
[00:04:53]  This is a clip show.
[00:04:56]  Yeah.
[00:04:58]  Yeah, we have a new episode.
[00:05:00]  We could do a clip show if we want.
[00:05:01]  Actually, we did a clip show once.
[00:05:03]  Or we did a little montage.
[00:05:05]  It was like a mini clip show.
[00:05:06]  Uh-huh.
[00:05:07]  And Chomsky did a little, You know, clip-clip.
[00:05:11]  Yeah.
[00:05:12]  Yeah, but he did, uh, you know what I mean?
[00:05:13]  There's been a lot of montages.
[00:05:14]  You know what I mean?
[00:05:15]  Well, this isn't that.
[00:05:16]  So I don't know why you're fucking dwelling on this.
[00:05:18]  I'm just rambling.
[00:05:21]  We are, we have, we have a good episode today.
[00:05:25]  I think so.
[00:05:26]  Yeah.
[00:05:26]  Well, I mean, not actually all of our episodes are good, but this one's really good.
[00:05:29]  Yeah.
[00:05:30]  We have with us today Lisa Pease.
[00:05:34]  And she is here to talk with us about, I was about to say something really mean to Liz, but I had to cover it up with an and uh I was gonna say I will say during this interview, I texted the boys and I said, She is so cozy.
[00:05:46]  Yes, yeah.
[00:05:46]  And because she is, I think, our coziest guest that we've ever 100%.
[00:05:51]  It is I would like to, I said, I want to bake cookies with her and just wax poetic about, you know, CIA crimes and cover-ups.
[00:06:00]  Yeah, it is.
[00:06:01]  It was a fantastic episode.
[00:06:03]  It is a fantastic episode.
[00:06:04]  And unfortunately for us, we've already heard it because, you know, not to brag or anything, but we were the people that interviewed her.
[00:06:11]  But you get to hear it right now after the sentence ends.
[00:06:15]  Now, well, ladies and gentlemen, I am very excited and honored to welcome to the show Lisa Pease, the author of A Lie Too Big to Fail: The Real History of the Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy,
[00:06:40]  former co-editor of Probe Magazine with a man whose name you might know from this podcast, Jim DiEugenio, and an author, author, sir.

=== Sirhan's Parole Pending (02:12) ===

[00:06:50]  I'm tripping over my words here, but an author, researcher, and amateur historian.
[00:06:54]  Lisa, welcome to the show.
[00:06:56]  It is a pleasure to have you.
[00:06:57]  Thank you very much.
[00:06:59]  I wish there were more historians who actually looked into this case.
[00:07:04]  Certainly.
[00:07:04]  Well, you have done enough work for about 10 of them.
[00:07:09]  I think I've maybe messaged you before to come on, but this is certainly the best time to do it because this is a, it has been exactly one week today since news was made about Sirhan Sirhan.
[00:07:21]  The first step of his parole has been put into motion.
[00:07:26]  I'm not really sure the exact terminology to use on all this.
[00:07:28]  Yeah, he was granted parole a week ago.
[00:07:31]  Exactly.
[00:07:32]  Yes.
[00:07:32]  He was granted parole a week ago.
[00:07:34]  And that kicks off a 120-day process.
[00:07:37]  There's a 90-day period where a larger parole board reviews it to make sure they've crossed all the T's, dotted all the I's.
[00:07:44]  30-day period whether governor can veto it or not.
[00:07:49]  And I know that Newsom has vetoed some paroles before.
[00:07:52]  He vetoed it.
[00:07:56]  That's right.
[00:07:57]  That's right.
[00:07:58]  So fingers crossed.
[00:08:00]  Hopefully the recall will take up too much of his attention for him to even bother with this.
[00:08:05]  Yeah, even if he was recalled, though, it would still be him because of the way the clock works and the transition would take place.
[00:08:13]  No, but I'm literally just hoping he's too stressed out to think about it.
[00:08:17]  Let the board decide, yes.
[00:08:19]  Exactly.
[00:08:20]  I hope so too.
[00:08:23]  So, Lisa, why, I mean, Sirhan Sirhan, I think people might have a passing, you know, familiarity with him, either from like pop culture references to him or, you know, maybe seen his name in the news or just, you know, basic history.
[00:08:39]  He's associated or, you know, is the supposed assassin of RFK.
[00:08:45]  But you have done an immense amount of research into this guy.
[00:08:48]  And we have brought you here today to tell us why it is not only good that Sirhan Sirhan is possibly hopefully getting parole, but why this shouldn't have even been an issue in the first place.

=== People Saw a Gunman (15:53) ===

[00:09:02]  Okay.
[00:09:03]  And so who is this cat?
[00:09:06]  Okay.
[00:09:07]  Who is this?
[00:09:08]  First of all, Sirhan and his family, they came to America during the Israeli War for Independence or the Nakba, depending on which side you talk to.
[00:09:18]  His family, you know, their old village, they had to leave immediately.
[00:09:22]  They were put in a home with 40 other people.
[00:09:25]  They shared a toilet pit in the basement for 40 families.
[00:09:30]  They slept on rags.
[00:09:32]  And they were middle class before that.
[00:09:33]  So huge change in their life.
[00:09:35]  Sirhan Sirhan saw his older brother Munir killed.
[00:09:40]  And he was so traumatized by that that when he had a younger brother, the mother also named him Munir in part to pacify Sirhan.
[00:09:50]  So it's like the tragedy that that family had been through before they even got to America is pretty, pretty horrific.
[00:09:58]  And of course, they came here looking for a better life.
[00:10:00]  They're Christians.
[00:10:01]  They're not Muslims.
[00:10:02]  You know, they studied with pastors.
[00:10:05]  And the mother, of course, was the most devout.
[00:10:07]  The son's maybe a little less devout.
[00:10:12]  Right, right.
[00:10:13]  There were other brothers that have all passed away.
[00:10:16]  So right now, Sirhan Sirhan is 77 years old.
[00:10:20]  He has a younger brother named Munir who lives in Pasadena at the same house that Sirhan originally lived in.
[00:10:28]  So if he is freed, he will get to go back to his old bedroom.
[00:10:32]  I mean, I think that's, there's a lovely continuity of that, that nothing will have changed.
[00:10:37]  That house has been frozen in time in a way.
[00:10:40]  There's just a lot more books on the shelves about the case now than there were at the time.
[00:10:45]  So what had happened, let me just back up real quick for your listeners who may not know this history.
[00:10:50]  So Robert Kennedy, this was the California primary, and he was poised to win not just the primary.
[00:10:57]  Well, he won the primary that night, June 4th.
[00:11:00]  He won the primary.
[00:11:01]  Shortly after midnight, he came down to give his acceptance speech.
[00:11:05]  So that's June 5th.
[00:11:06]  After the speech, he walked backstage, took a right turn, walked down a little ramp, and into this pantry area.
[00:11:14]  It was like a staging area for the servers for banquets and things like that.
[00:11:18]  And there were three big steam tables and a huge ice machine that covered like half a wall with a little space between a divider wall and the ice machine.
[00:11:26]  The perfect spot to hide an assassin, by the way.
[00:11:29]  And that's not where Sirhan was standing.
[00:11:31]  There was a tray stacker at the end of the ice machine where Sir Han was seen not alone, but with a girl in a polka dot dress holding him on that stand.
[00:11:41]  And I'll come back to that girl in a moment.
[00:11:43]  Yes, I was about to say another very important part of this.
[00:11:48]  Anyway, Robert Kennedy walks into the room.
[00:11:51]  He's on his way to the colonial room, which is at the east end of the pantry and across the hall.
[00:11:56]  And that's where the print media is.
[00:11:58]  And this was common at every campaign stop.
[00:12:01]  He was the only one who made a point of stopping and talking to the print media because at one time, Bobby Kennedy himself was a journalist.
[00:12:08]  And so he had sympathy for them.
[00:12:10]  He's just a great guy.
[00:12:12]  So anyway, he stops.
[00:12:13]  You know, some busboys shake his hand.
[00:12:15]  He turns to move forward.
[00:12:17]  Sir Han is facing him.
[00:12:18]  Sirhan pulls out a gun and fires right at Robert Kennedy.
[00:12:22]  Robert Kennedy twists to his left and falls down on the pantry floor.
[00:12:27]  People grab Sirhan after the second shot and throw him into the seam table and try and keep his arm away from the crowd so he can't kill anybody else.
[00:12:36]  And even so, Robert Keddy is hit four times.
[00:12:40]  The big problem is Robert Kennedy was not hit from the front four times.
[00:12:44]  And Sir Han did not get that close.
[00:12:47]  And I literally made a spreadsheet.
[00:12:49]  There were 77 pantry witnesses that the LAPD would allow for.
[00:12:53]  I know at least two others who were there provably that are not on the list.
[00:12:58]  But in general, it's a pretty comprehensive list.
[00:13:00]  And I listed like who saw Sirhan, who saw Robert Kennedy.
[00:13:04]  And then I didn't care.
[00:13:04]  If they saw a gun at Kennedy's head, but they couldn't identify it as Sirhan, I threw that out because I only wanted to know what the people who saw both at the same time said.
[00:13:15]  That's logical, right?
[00:13:16]  And guess what?
[00:13:18]  Yeah, they put them two feet apart.
[00:13:21]  Yes, that's one of the most astounding parts about your book: there's so many statements that you have from witnesses, and so few of them can concretely say, like, yes, I saw everyone basically describes essentially the same scene: that Sirhan Sirhan several feet in front of Kennedy, and nobody says he's behind him.
[00:13:41]  Right, right.
[00:13:42]  But there were people who saw a gunman behind Kennedy.
[00:13:45]  And so that's very interesting.
[00:13:47]  There were people who saw a gun right at Kennedy's head, but those people could not connect Sirhan or identify him as the shooter.
[00:13:55]  They assumed he was the shooter.
[00:13:57]  Everybody assumed when they talked to the police, you know, that the person they saw was the shooter because the police could have told them all there was one guy.
[00:14:06]  So no matter who they saw and what he looked like, whether he's tall, short, fat, thin, you know, blonde, dark-haired, they all assumed they had seen Sirhan, but only a few of them actually had.
[00:14:16]  So that's a huge problem.
[00:14:18]  Now, and it's a problem because the autopsy report shows that Robert Kenny was shot from not more than an inch or so behind his right ear.
[00:14:27]  And they knew that because they took pig's ears and shot at them and backed up the gun until they got the right powder burn match.
[00:14:35]  And at about an inch to an inch and a half is the closest it could have been.
[00:14:39]  Now there's one witness who said, oh, Sir Han lunged at Kennedy.
[00:14:42]  Well, Kennedy was shot four times from behind, not once.
[00:14:46]  If Sirhan lunged at Kennedy, he still didn't get close enough to make that shot.
[00:14:51]  He was in people's hands.
[00:14:53]  And honestly, that didn't happen.
[00:14:56]  The guy who said that was looking at them through a camera and he said they were just silhouettes.
[00:15:01]  So somebody lunged at Kennedy, but we can't say it was Sirhan.
[00:15:05]  And those who saw them both said, no, that didn't happen.
[00:15:08]  So again, it's not what they often say, oh, well, witnesses just miss things, but it's not what witnesses missed.
[00:15:13]  It is what they saw that precludes anything else from having happened.
[00:15:18]  So just to finish what happened that night, how did Sirhan get arrested then?
[00:15:24]  How did that all?
[00:15:25]  So of course he was thrown into the table and held down.
[00:15:28]  And some people wanted to just kill him and choke the death out of him.
[00:15:32]  But they held him for the police.
[00:15:34]  And interestingly.
[00:15:35]  Yelling, we don't want another, we don't want another Oswald.
[00:15:38]  Oswald.
[00:15:39]  Somebody yelled.
[00:15:40]  Yes.
[00:15:41]  But here's, again, so there's big problems.
[00:15:43]  One, he couldn't have killed Kennedy just from those facts alone.
[00:15:47]  There's no way he could have killed Kennedy.
[00:15:49]  He should be paroled on that basis.
[00:15:51]  But there's much more.
[00:15:52]  And that's that there were at least provably on paper in the LAPD and FBI files 13 bullets.
[00:15:59]  And Sirhan's gun could only hold eight.
[00:16:02]  All right.
[00:16:02]  There were eight bullets that the police accounted for, seven bullets retrieved from the victims because two were removed from Kennedy and one each from five other shooting victims.
[00:16:14]  There were three bullet holes in the ceiling.
[00:16:16]  So the police said, well, one bullet went up and came back down, but a third one went up and stayed, right?
[00:16:22]  Because how do you get an odd number from, you know, from below?
[00:16:26]  And so they're out of bullets now.
[00:16:28]  But the FBI photographed, and I even have video of this, there's paneling on the door frames of the doors that Kennedy walked through.
[00:16:37]  These big swinging doors, you know, leading from the pantry, ultimately into the embassy room.
[00:16:43]  And in the center door post, there are two bullet holes.
[00:16:46]  And in the far south part of the doorframe, there are two more bullet holes.
[00:16:51]  So now we're up to 12 bullets.
[00:16:53]  And then there was a 13th bullet that was in an AP photo the day of the, you know, right after the shooting with two police officers pointing at it.
[00:17:02]  And the caption says the bullet is still in the hole.
[00:17:05]  That bullet was in the back of the stage door that Kennedy had come out of.
[00:17:10]  It was directly in line with a shot from the pantry, but it was slightly up a slope.
[00:17:15]  And that's why it was kind of at the bottom of it, but it would have been kind of level with where the steam table was.
[00:17:20]  So easily 13 shots.
[00:17:22]  And we haven't even talked about an audio tape that also found 13 shots, right?
[00:17:27]  Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:17:28]  There's news articles about that, too.
[00:17:30]  Yeah.
[00:17:31]  And I don't like to talk about the audio tape because to me, that is something that can be subject to interpretation.
[00:17:37]  And different scientists are going to disagree as to what constitutes a bullet shot.
[00:17:41]  Although my favorite is in Mel Heiton's book, where he has an expert who says it was all Sirhan.
[00:17:48]  I found seven shots for sure and three possible locations for the eighth shot.
[00:17:54]  In other words, he found 10 shot sounds, but he knew he had to limit it to eight, so he wouldn't identify the final one.
[00:18:01]  I mean, the intellectual dishonesty, and I don't know if it's dishonesty.
[00:18:06]  Like, I don't know if the guy thinks he's lying or if it's just like this emotional inability to accept the truth that there were at least two gunmen firing, because that's the case.
[00:18:15]  Now, in my research, it gets worse because a lot of people saw a visible flame coming out of Sirhan's gun.
[00:18:23]  And you don't see that when you're firing bullets.
[00:18:26]  You only see a flame when you're firing blanks.
[00:18:28]  That's what we see in Hollywood all the time.
[00:18:31]  They use blanks for two reasons.
[00:18:33]  One, it's a safety issue, but two, it shows like something coming out of the gun.
[00:18:38]  And it's a visual representation.
[00:18:41]  Right.
[00:18:41]  And there's so because otherwise it's like it's much less exciting if there's no gunfire coming out.
[00:18:46]  You don't know when the bullet went off or not.
[00:18:49]  But in real life, there's no flame or anything coming out of a gun.
[00:18:53]  It just looks like a gun.
[00:18:53]  Well, I will say on the on the 22, that does seem, I mean, I have a rifle with a muzzle break that does put out a blast.
[00:19:02]  A large blast of gas.
[00:19:04]  But I also, I have a, I have a 22 revolver.
[00:19:08]  It is a, I mean, it's just like a, you know, I fired it many times.
[00:19:13]  And yeah, there's not a very, it is not a very spectacular.
[00:19:17]  Yeah, there might be a little puff, you know, exactly.
[00:19:19]  Like a little bit of smoke or something, but not a visible flame, not a shower of paper, and definitely not residue that look, you know, Rayford Johnson, who was an Olympic decathlon champion, who, you know, participated in events, started with a starter pistol all his life.
[00:19:38]  And he said it looked like a starter pistol.
[00:19:41]  It looked like a cap gun throwing off residue.
[00:19:44]  And so there's that evidence too.
[00:19:46]  There was also a number of sound witnesses who said it sounded like a cap gun.
[00:19:51]  We're talking people who are in the military, the attorney general's assistant, you know, of the United States.
[00:19:57]  I mean, high-level people were saying it sounded like a cap gun, not just Mojo.
[00:20:02]  I think, I think, with here, too, is when I first read about this when I was younger and read that there were like different theories on this, it was a little confusing to me because I'm like, well, it's a small room.
[00:20:13]  You know, there's dozens and dozens of people there.
[00:20:15]  How do you not just like everyone does not see this guy shoot him?
[00:20:19]  But I not, you know, if you think about it a little more, and especially you're reading a lot of the witness statements in here, this is a very confused, chaotic scene.
[00:20:27]  I mean, even before any shots were fired, RFK, you know, a guy who just won the California primary, is being basically led at his elbow by a person with a gun in the room.
[00:20:42]  A security guard.
[00:20:43]  Yeah, security guard who I found out worked for the CIA, at least in later years.
[00:20:48]  And probably at that point, Thane Eugene Caesar was working for Robert Mayhew and the Hughes organization at the time that Mayhew was basically the connecting point between the CIA and Hughes.
[00:21:00]  Hughes gave the CIA money for their operations.
[00:21:03]  CIA used Hughes for cover for their operations.
[00:21:06]  It was somewhat of an open relationship.
[00:21:08]  But on the other hand, when the CIA tapped Mayhew to run the Castro assassination plots, he didn't get permission from Hughes.
[00:21:15]  He just did that.
[00:21:16]  Hughes later is like, what?
[00:21:17]  Are you involved in that?
[00:21:19]  He's like, oh, yeah, by the way, CIA asked me to do this.
[00:21:23]  Well, it's an open relationship.
[00:21:25]  Yeah.
[00:21:26]  Exactly.
[00:21:27]  Mayhew was on CI Retainer the entire time.
[00:21:30]  And in the CIA's internal report on the Castro plots, they mentioned that basically they had complete control over Mayhew.
[00:21:38]  Mayhew wouldn't sneeze if the CI didn't approve it.
[00:21:41]  And so for Thane Caesar, his guy to be there in the room, literally holding Kennedy.
[00:21:47]  And I wish I had two of me here because it's like holding one arm.
[00:21:53]  But Kennedy is shot under the very arm that Thane Caesar is holding.
[00:21:58]  Caesar was like a big six-foot kind of stocky guy.
[00:22:02]  He could easily have fired those three shots and no one would have seen because he could have hit it with his own body.
[00:22:07]  And then after Kennedy fell, there was a witness who was very distressed because he saw the security guard standing and pointing a gun down at Kennedy and not at Sir Han.
[00:22:17]  And that freaked that guy out, Richard Lubick, because he's like, why is he pointing there?
[00:22:21]  Shouldn't he be looking for the shooter?
[00:22:24]  And people have said, oh, Sir Han can't be firing blanks because that would mean there was yet another shooter in the pantry.
[00:22:30]  Well, guess what?
[00:22:31]  The story's been told inadequately for many years.
[00:22:35]  And like I said, I literally read every pantry witness.
[00:22:38]  I'm convinced there were at least four guns in that pantry based on the descriptions I have read.
[00:22:43]  One of them was right next to where Sir Han was.
[00:22:46]  He was standing on the table.
[00:22:48]  Then he jumped down and ran out.
[00:22:50]  People saw him running away with a gun in his hand, and he even looked like Sirhan, but he was significantly taller.
[00:22:58]  So, again, if somebody saw just the face, they would have assumed it was Sirhan.
[00:23:03]  But from the witnesses who saw this man, and again, there are like three or four of them, it's clearly not Sir Han.
[00:23:09]  Sirhan wasn't on the table till he was shoved there.
[00:23:11]  This guy was on the table before Sir Han was shoved there.
[00:23:14]  And then it's like they kind of switched positions as Sirhan's being shoved down.
[00:23:17]  This guy is jumping off.
[00:23:19]  And here's the other thing that happened.
[00:23:22]  As you mentioned, the confusion.
[00:23:24]  The shooting happened so fast.
[00:23:26]  None of the cameramen, because all the cameramen had turned their cameras off.
[00:23:30]  You know, they had those big old cameras they had to carry around in those days.
[00:23:34]  And, you know, they couldn't get them up and on in time to capture the shooting.
[00:23:39]  It was all over in like 40 seconds.
[00:23:41]  It went by so fast.
[00:23:43]  And some witnesses in the lobby saw a guy running like for his life across the lobby.
[00:23:49]  And at that point, they didn't know Kenny had been shot.
[00:23:52]  So they had no idea why this guy was running, you know, like his pants were on fire and thought it was very odd and told the police about it later.
[00:23:59]  Another guy ran into the lobby and actually got caught and handcuffed because people were saying, stop him, get him.
[00:24:06]  He's got a gun.
[00:24:07]  And if he did or didn't have a gun, certainly that's been covered up.
[00:24:12]  All right.
[00:24:13]  It's possible he handed off the gun to somebody.
[00:24:15]  There was what looked like what they call a brush pass, a high-speed brush pass in the lobby where it appears he might have switched with somebody.
[00:24:25]  That man is named Michael Wayne.
[00:24:27]  He's a highly suspicious character.
[00:24:29]  He lied about people he knew all night.
[00:24:31]  He collected press badges and then gave some of them away right before the shooting.
[00:24:36]  Now, if you're a collector, you don't just hand free things out.
[00:24:41]  You keep them.
[00:24:42]  That's the whole point of getting them.
[00:24:43]  But at the embassy hotel, I mean, at the embassy room, a press badge is like an all-access pass.
[00:24:50]  You can go anywhere in the hotel with a press badge.
[00:24:53]  And so it's a much bigger story.

=== Reality Check (15:41) ===

[00:24:56]  And even people who like say it is a conspiracy, they want to keep it simple because two people seem easier to believe than like 10.
[00:25:06]  But in reality, this was an intelligence operation.
[00:25:09]  And when you stage something like that, it takes a team.
[00:25:12]  You have spotters.
[00:25:13]  You have people ready to clean up the evidence at the end.
[00:25:17]  Somebody was seen digging bullets out of the wall in the pantry immediately after the shooting that wasn't even the sheriff.
[00:25:23]  I mean, it's like there were people who knew what to do, how to cover it up, and they moved in immediately.
[00:25:30]  So this was not a small little mob hit.
[00:25:33]  This was a big deal.
[00:25:35]  And they had to have plan A, plan B, and plan C, and A D and E in place as well.
[00:25:40]  That takes multiple, multiple people, both inside and outside, obviously, the surveillance units that would have had to have been there.
[00:25:46]  Yeah, and there may have been a plot in Oregon.
[00:25:49]  Somebody swore that they saw Sirhan bumped into him and he had a gun in his pants up at Oregon.
[00:25:55]  There were people with the girl in a polka dot dress and either Sirhan or a look-alike at a place in Pomona where Kennedy was speaking.
[00:26:03]  So I don't know if those were just scoping it out or if those were plots that didn't go off and this was finally the one that succeeded.
[00:26:11]  We can't assume this was the first time they tried.
[00:26:14]  In fact, there was a weird report in Israel in April of that year that Kennedy had been shot.
[00:26:21]  And what's interesting is, of course, Kennedy wasn't shot.
[00:26:25]  Why did that?
[00:26:26]  It's almost like they had planned an assassination that didn't come off, but the press release ran anyway.
[00:26:32]  Right.
[00:26:32]  And there's many stories of international quote-unquote press releases coming out a bit too early and being witness to those.
[00:26:39]  Yes.
[00:26:40]  Yes, the Chilean coup was announced today before it happened.
[00:26:43]  Yes.
[00:26:44]  By Hal Hendrix, who had a close relationship with the CIA.
[00:26:48]  So Sirhan is tackled by a number of people, including George Plimpton, speaking of the CIA.
[00:26:54]  Yeah, speaking of the CIA.
[00:26:56]  Although it's interesting because George Plimpton gave some of the best evidence that Sirhan was in a state of hypnosis.
[00:27:04]  So here's where it gets really crazy.
[00:27:05]  So yeah, why would Sirhan agree to fire blanks as part of a plot?
[00:27:09]  And if he was conscious of the plot, you know, he would be the distractor in the magic deck pulling focus so the other shooters could get in.
[00:27:17]  And this, by the way, happened in a plot against Jimmy Carter.
[00:27:22]  The police literally caught a guy firing blanks, but they were able to shut it down before the plot took off.
[00:27:28]  So it was like a dry run they were doing.
[00:27:31]  But Plimpton talked about, he's like, I can't tell you what he looked like, but I can tell you about his eyes.
[00:27:36]  They were enormously calm and peaceful.
[00:27:40]  And interestingly enough, dilated pupils is one of the signs of hypnosis you cannot fake.
[00:27:46]  And so if people are trying to determine who's hypnotized or not, that's one of the things they look for is are their pupils dilated?
[00:27:53]  Because you can't just do that to yourself.
[00:27:55]  It only happens when you're in this relaxed state.
[00:28:00]  Or on LSD.
[00:28:01]  Yeah.
[00:28:02]  And in my book, I talk about the Kim Jong-nam assassination, which was the half-brother of Kim Jong-un of North Korea.
[00:28:10]  And by the way, Kim Jong-nam would have been next in succession.
[00:28:14]  So kind of an important guy.
[00:28:16]  Two women show up at the airport.
[00:28:18]  They're given a bottle of water and a towel.
[00:28:20]  One is to spray people.
[00:28:22]  The other is to wipe them off.
[00:28:23]  And this is all filmed for television.
[00:28:25]  And oh, isn't this fun?
[00:28:26]  Except when Kim Jong-nan comes out, the towel they wipe him with has a VX nerve agent on it, and he dies a few hours later.
[00:28:34]  So then the question is, how guilty are the women?
[00:28:38]  Did they know they were participating in an assassination plot?
[00:28:42]  Was it kind of accidental homicide?
[00:28:44]  I mean, how would you charge that?
[00:28:48]  And my argument with Sirhan is that he was hypnotized to fire in the pantry, but not at Robert Kennedy.
[00:28:56]  He was firing at what he thought were targets.
[00:28:58]  And again, this sounds crazy.
[00:29:00]  And, oh, I'm making up excuses and he's lying.
[00:29:04]  But Dan Brown is one of the hypnosis experts in the country right now, written textbooks, used at many universities, testified in court.
[00:29:11]  He got 60 hours with Sirhan.
[00:29:14]  And Sirhan had been hypnotized by his original defense team, but in a horrible way.
[00:29:18]  Sirhan, reach for your gun.
[00:29:20]  There's Kennedy.
[00:29:21]  Sirhan, reach for your gun and shoot him.
[00:29:22]  Do you remember that, Sirhan?
[00:29:24]  It's like trying to lead the witness.
[00:29:26]  And of course, Sir Han couldn't remember because that was not in his brain.
[00:29:31]  But when under open-ended questions, what do you see?
[00:29:34]  What do you hear?
[00:29:35]  Who are you with?
[00:29:36]  What's going on?
[00:29:38]  Sirhan remembered being with a girl on the Tray Stacker.
[00:29:41]  He'd followed her in there because she had an unspoken availability.
[00:29:45]  You know, he was turned off by her.
[00:29:47]  He said, and I quote, I thought I was going to hook up with her.
[00:29:50]  Yeah, yeah, he thought he was going to get lucky that night.
[00:29:53]  He's following this girl around like a puppy dog.
[00:29:56]  She gets him on the trace stacker, and he remembers seeing a door open.
[00:30:01]  And he only remembers this under hypnosis because outside of hypnosis, he says he has no memory.
[00:30:07]  And in my book, I have a lot of things he can't remember.
[00:30:09]  He can't remember if he's married or not.
[00:30:11]  He can't remember what car he drove.
[00:30:13]  He can't even remember if they've given him his Miranda rights, even though they read it to him three times.
[00:30:17]  And he doesn't remember Bill Jordan's name, even though he had just given it to him.
[00:30:22]  Some drugs, and I've been under anesthesia.
[00:30:24]  I don't know if you ever have, but that was my experience coming out of anesthesia.
[00:30:28]  I remember asking the same question, is it over?
[00:30:31]  Is it over?
[00:30:33]  And no matter how they answered me, it didn't stick in my brain.
[00:30:36]  It was the most frustrating thing.
[00:30:38]  I literally couldn't remember like a word later what they had just said.
[00:30:42]  And I just remember asking, is it over?
[00:30:44]  Is it over?
[00:30:45]  And they must have, you know, they must hate that because I guess they get that a lot.
[00:30:49]  But there are drugs that will make you forget short-term memory.
[00:30:52]  And I really think Sirhan was drugged.
[00:30:54]  And I make that argument in my book.
[00:30:56]  But anyway, so when Kennedy walks in, the girl moves him to the center of the room and pinches his back a certain way.
[00:31:04]  And suddenly he thinks he's back at the target range where he'd been all day.
[00:31:09]  And he sees the big targets in front of him and pulls out his gun and is firing.
[00:31:13]  And again, that sounds so convenient.
[00:31:16]  It sounds like a lie, right?
[00:31:18]  Except that I went to a hypnosis show.
[00:31:20]  I went to a whole bunch of hypnosis shows, but this one I'll never forget because during the show, the woman had been hypnotized to believe she'd gotten a $35,000 check.
[00:31:30]  It was just play money, right?
[00:31:32]  That's so mean.
[00:31:33]  You should be like, it's for $50.
[00:31:36]  I know, really.
[00:31:36]  $35,000.
[00:31:37]  She was really excited.
[00:31:38]  And I had talked to her for like 20 minutes before the show, perfectly normal, perfectly nice, perfectly intelligent, not some weirdo, not somebody with brain impairment, just very normal.
[00:31:49]  And so during the show, I see this.
[00:31:51]  And then after the show, I actually went to look for the hypnotist because I wanted to ask him about Sirhan.
[00:31:56]  And he kind of got freaked out and literally like ran out of the area.
[00:32:00]  I mean, it was like, I did not want to talk about that.
[00:32:02]  Too young to have been involved.
[00:32:04]  There's no way he was involved.
[00:32:05]  But as the crowds were clearing, I noticed this woman still there looking incredibly distressed.
[00:32:11]  And I went up to her and I'm like, you know, are you okay?
[00:32:14]  Did you lose your family?
[00:32:15]  She goes, well, I have to give this back.
[00:32:17]  I'm like, oh, it's just play money.
[00:32:18]  I don't think he cares.
[00:32:19]  And she said, no, it's a $25,000 check.
[00:32:24]  And I'm like, oh my God, she literally cannot see what's in her hand.
[00:32:28]  She is in the grip of a hypnotic illusion.
[00:32:32]  And I tried to shake her out of it.
[00:32:33]  I'm like, can I hold it with you?
[00:32:36]  It's bringing closer.
[00:32:37]  Look in the upper right.
[00:32:38]  Do you see where it says 100?
[00:32:40]  And she cut me off.
[00:32:41]  She says, No, it's a $35,000 check or whatever it was, $25, $35,000.
[00:32:46]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:47]  I was freaked out at that point because I'd never seen that before.
[00:32:51]  I'd never seen somebody completely convinced of a reality that wasn't there.
[00:32:56]  And so after that, I knew that Sirhan must have seen something else in the pantry.
[00:33:02]  And it wasn't until I got to Dan Brown's testimony, you know, his write-up for the courts of what he had seen with Sirhan.
[00:33:10]  Then I actually believed Sirhan.
[00:33:12]  He thought he was firing at targets.
[00:33:14]  He did not plan to kill Keddy.
[00:33:16]  He did not want to kill Keddie.
[00:33:18]  He said in the court in the original trial, I loved Kennedy.
[00:33:21]  I don't know why I would have wanted to kill him.
[00:33:23]  And so his, you know, the defense, and I use that term generously, his defense team with air quotes told him it would be better if he said like he did it for Israel or something.
[00:33:36]  So they helped him craft this narrative.
[00:33:38]  I mean, to not for Israel.
[00:33:40]  My defense team has told me that a bunch of times.
[00:33:42]  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:44]  He's a Palestinian.
[00:33:46]  And so they said, you know, it'd be better, you know, if we frame this as something, you know, that's political and then the jury will believe you.
[00:33:54]  And, but the thing is, it wasn't.
[00:33:57]  And his brother, Miyanir, said, Lisa, you know, Sirhan's politics have been blown way out of proportion.
[00:34:02]  We didn't talk about that that much.
[00:34:03]  We didn't argue about it that much.
[00:34:05]  And of course, that became then the big cover story.
[00:34:08]  Well, Sirhan is a grieved Palestinian.
[00:34:10]  In fact, one of the books on his shelf is like the first, you know, the forgotten terrorist.
[00:34:15]  Well, that's, that's, that's what, that's what I had always heard because being like sort of like somewhat aware of this assassination, you know, just growing up, it was like, well, this guy shot RFK because of RFK's support for Israel and I think sale of like 50, 50 bombers or bomber jets to Israel at some point.
[00:34:36]  Yeah.
[00:34:36]  But it definitely does not seem like that.
[00:34:42]  I mean, even in the like him getting questioned by the police, I mean, he has, like you were saying, he's very confused, doesn't remember, like have any short term memory.
[00:34:51]  He's so confused that the DA who comes into the room says he's trying to talk to him.
[00:34:56]  He finally stops and he changes the subject and goes, do you know where you are?
[00:35:01]  Do you know why you're here?
[00:35:03]  You've been charged.
[00:35:04]  And Sirhan kind of mumbles and he's like, you know, we're in jail.
[00:35:09]  And he's like, do you understand what I've said?
[00:35:11]  And Sirhan's like, so long as you say it.
[00:35:14]  I mean, the DA's assistant, Howard, knew there was a problem.
[00:35:20]  He could tell that Sirhan was in an altered state even after the assassination.
[00:35:25]  And like I said, they're trying to find out his name.
[00:35:28]  And at one point, they come in and they call him Jesse.
[00:35:31]  And they think his name's Jesse because one of the other suspects who was captured but released, evidently, was named Jesse Greer.
[00:35:38]  And so they thought, now we know, because they didn't know Sirhan's name.
[00:35:41]  He had no ID on him.
[00:35:42]  And me and yours said, at least we all left our wallets in the car.
[00:35:45]  That's what you did in those days.
[00:35:47]  And they just left him in the glove compartment.
[00:35:49]  So he didn't have any ID on him.
[00:35:52]  And it's just an incredible story, which is why I wrote a book.
[00:35:56]  I can't explain it in, you know, 45 minutes or an hour, even five hours.
[00:36:01]  It's 25 hours on audiobook.
[00:36:03]  It's a lot of information.
[00:36:19]  Well, I do want to pause and go back to the hypnosis stuff, because I think that maybe to, you know, some people either who, I don't know, maybe haven't listened to our podcast for that long, or maybe are new to this story, that that might sound so out of left field, like you're saying.
[00:36:35]  like this is just something that, you know, you make up on the stand.
[00:36:39]  This is, you know, something you grab for, you know, last ditch effort kind of defense or whatever.
[00:36:44]  But you say that, you know, the, you know, hypnotist you saw was too young for him to have been involved in doing it to Sirhan.
[00:36:54]  But the U.S. government has been involved in that kind of stuff for quite some time.
[00:37:00]  Yes.
[00:37:01]  Yes.
[00:37:01]  And, you know, we have, you know, offhandedly sometimes we make reference to MKUltra and similar programs to that.
[00:37:08]  But for our listeners who aren't familiar, can you explain a little bit some of that?
[00:37:12]  Yes, I will.
[00:37:13]  Yes, I will.
[00:37:14]  So one of the things that happened during the Korean War is our Korean soldiers were captured and confessed to war crimes.
[00:37:23]  And they talked about that they said we had sent biological warfare into Korea.
[00:37:27]  Well, guess what?
[00:37:28]  I met a guy who was forced to join the CIA when he learned that we were sending biological weapons into Korea.
[00:37:35]  So it was actually a true story, but the cover story was that, well, they were hypnotized and programmed to say that and that they were all given show trials.
[00:37:43]  And so then Alan Dulles being the psychotic genius that he was at the CIA at the time, he went to Congress and said, oh my God, they're brainwashing our soldiers.
[00:37:56]  We need to find, investigate hypnosis and find ways to get the same kind of information from our POWs that we've captured and to prevent them from being hypnotizable.
[00:38:07]  But we need lots of money to experiment.
[00:38:09]  And so, and the Navy did its own separate experiments.
[00:38:13]  And the Army has done its own experiments.
[00:38:15]  I mean, every branch has done experiments.
[00:38:17]  But in the 50s, the CI did a lot of them.
[00:38:19]  And one of them was almost identical to what happened in the pantry.
[00:38:24]  It was called Project Artitoke.
[00:38:26]  And they posed it initially as a question in their documents.
[00:38:29]  Can a man of redacted nationality be made to commit an act of attempted assassination as part of a larger operation?
[00:38:42]  So it's like, can we hypnotize somebody to stand and fire blanks so that other shooters can get in and do the job?
[00:38:49]  And the answer clearly, sadly, is yes.
[00:38:52]  And that's the other thing I found that I've been, you know, every time I go to a hypnosis show, you always hear the same thing, oh, we can never make somebody do something against their will.
[00:39:01]  That's true and a lie at the same time because you can.
[00:39:04]  You just can't do it overtly.
[00:39:06]  I can't tell you, go kill your mother.
[00:39:08]  You're not going to do it.
[00:39:09]  But if I say a spy has captured your family and a woman who's going to look exactly like your mother, who's been trained to cry and laugh and talk to you and knows your whole family history, is going to come in here and kill you if you don't kill her first.
[00:39:25]  And you'll never get your real mother back unless you kill this spy.
[00:39:29]  You know, in hypnosis, somebody might kill their own mother with that kind of a setup because you've now changed the reality.
[00:39:36]  And so with Sirhan, it's much simpler than that.
[00:39:39]  They just change the reality, make him think he's back at the firing range.
[00:39:42]  That would be an easy thing to program somebody to do.
[00:39:46]  His lawyers called it range mode.
[00:39:48]  Have you ever seen that Darren Brown special where he programs a person?
[00:39:53]  I went to one of his shows once.
[00:39:55]  Darren Brown is a genius and a light worker because Darren Brown's whole shtick is kind of helping you see how the trick is done so that you are better protected from that sort of thing.
[00:40:07]  I have the greatest respect for Darren Brown.
[00:40:11]  He did guess the pin number of the person I went with.
[00:40:14]  Did he really?
[00:40:15]  Oh my God, that's so freaky.
[00:40:17]  Very weird.
[00:40:18]  Yeah.
[00:40:19]  And then my name, which was, yeah, it was quite skilled.
[00:40:23]  But did you know the Discovery Channel did a replica of the Darren Brown experiment and got the exact same result?
[00:40:31]  I did not know that.
[00:40:32]  Yes.
[00:40:32]  This is a much lesser-known show, and it's not on the internet.
[00:40:36]  But I found it and I watched it.

=== Darren Brown's Hypnotic Guess (03:40) ===

[00:40:38]  And they got a guy to, and they set it up so the guy thought whatever he was participating was over.
[00:40:46]  And he was to carry a gun, and they made very clear it was loaded.
[00:40:50]  And he got to the bottom of the stairs, and the hypnotic signal was given, and he fired, and the person showed down dead.
[00:40:56]  Now, unlike in the Darren Brown show, where the guy was kind of like still, he didn't have a big reaction to seeing himself shoot.
[00:41:04]  You know, famous comedian on the show.
[00:41:05]  Well, it was Peter Hitchin.
[00:41:06]  It was Christopher Hitchens, right?
[00:41:07]  So, yeah.
[00:41:08]  Yeah.
[00:41:10]  But it wasn't, but that's funny.
[00:41:14]  But that's all right.
[00:41:17]  That would have been funnier, is what I'm thinking.
[00:41:19]  Yeah.
[00:41:19]  Anyway, but in this other show, the guy was literally so freaked out when he saw on video himself shooting.
[00:41:27]  He's like, please tell me he's still alive.
[00:41:30]  He was just like, oh my God, I can't believe I shot somebody.
[00:41:34]  And of course, they bring the guy in because he was an actor.
[00:41:36]  It was all stage.
[00:41:37]  And then he started to relax a little bit.
[00:41:39]  But he was as freaked out as you can imagine that Sir Han must have felt like, I killed somebody.
[00:41:45]  How could I not know I killed somebody?
[00:41:48]  What the heck happened?
[00:41:49]  His first words to his mother, Mianir, told me this the other day.
[00:41:52]  You know, she's like, What happened?
[00:41:54]  Sir Han's like, I can't remember.
[00:41:56]  And can you imagine now?
[00:41:57]  So every time he goes to parole, he has to confess to a crime he doesn't remember committing.
[00:42:02]  He has to apologize to the Kennedy family for a crime he doesn't remember committing and doesn't have any sense that he did commit.
[00:42:10]  And the parole board won't free him unless he shows appropriate remorse.
[00:42:14]  So it's like he's in a catch-22.
[00:42:17]  And so he has pretty much said over the years, whatever his lawyers have told him to say, because he literally does not remember.
[00:42:24]  But he does feel genuine grief for the Kennedy family because he actually liked Robert Kennedy.
[00:42:30]  He was an immigrant, and Kennedy talked about immigrants and the brown people and the black people.
[00:42:35]  And Sir Han, as a minority, he really admired what Kennedy was doing.
[00:42:40]  And so to me, the saddest blow of all comes now with some of the Kennedy children, not all of them.
[00:42:47]  Robert Kennedy had 11 children.
[00:42:50]  Two of them are now dead.
[00:42:51]  Six of them are children.
[00:42:52]  I know.
[00:42:52]  Liz's eyes opened up.
[00:42:54]  I know.
[00:42:54]  Every time I read that, I realize he had Christ.
[00:42:58]  He's a 42.
[00:43:00]  They didn't believe him right now.
[00:43:01]  You knew you could be more of a Wilt, like a Wilt Chamberlain.
[00:43:05]  I mean, you rival Jack.
[00:43:08]  I guess that's why Bobby and Jack always said that rivalry was.
[00:43:11]  Yeah.
[00:43:12]  I mean, when people say that, like, you know, they try and make up stories about Bobby having affairs.
[00:43:17]  It's like, no, that guy really loves me.
[00:43:20]  Hey, he's just a good Catholic boy.
[00:43:23]  He really loved his wife.
[00:43:24]  Those Catholic boys are always popping out, those kids.
[00:43:27]  I will say a detail from your book that I had no idea.
[00:43:31]  I mean, there's a lot of details I didn't know about, but one of the details that really stuck out to me was that, and if I'm getting this wrong, please correct me, but Bobby slept at John Frankheimer's house the night before.
[00:43:47]  And that, of course, is the director of the original, obviously not the later, very bad.
[00:43:54]  The original wonderful film.
[00:43:56]  Yeah, the Minskuring Candidate.
[00:43:58]  And a consultant to that film said on the radio right after the assassination that he suspected Sirhan had been hypnotized.
[00:44:09]  And the thing is, a lot of us suspected he was the hypnotist, and that was the closest to a brag he could do because he was a well later.

=== Kamala's Jailed Suspect (15:02) ===

[00:44:18]  Didn't that hypnotist get in a little bit of trouble later too?
[00:44:21]  Oh, yeah.
[00:44:21]  Oh, yeah.
[00:44:22]  So here's the guy saying, you can't hypnotize people, do something against his will.
[00:44:26]  And then these women sued him for having sex while they were under hypnosis.
[00:44:31]  Yes.
[00:44:32]  And yeah, he suddenly, you know, kind of just disappeared from the public scene after.
[00:44:39]  He's like, actually, I misspoke.
[00:44:40]  I said, you can.
[00:44:42]  You can't.
[00:44:42]  It's.
[00:44:44]  Yeah.
[00:44:44]  Yeah.
[00:44:45]  And that, unfortunately, that didn't just happen then.
[00:44:48]  That is still happening.
[00:44:49]  I quote some cases from like the 1990s, like a woman went into the pharmacy and then came home and felt weird.
[00:44:55]  It's like something strange has happened.
[00:44:57]  She figured out the pharmacist had hypnotized her and had sex with her.
[00:45:01]  You know, it's just, it's people don't have any idea how powerful hypnosis is.
[00:45:07]  And I encourage you to go to shows, but I encourage you to go up and try and listen to the people after the show is over.
[00:45:14]  Because it wasn't just this woman.
[00:45:16]  This woman, it was the first time I saw an illusion, but I had seen another guy completely denying he'd done all the things we'd just seen him do on stage.
[00:45:24]  And he's like, oh, I was just fooling around.
[00:45:26]  And he's like, I didn't mean any of that.
[00:45:28]  And then his friend said, well, you just did this.
[00:45:30]  He's like, no, I didn't.
[00:45:31]  I'm like, oh my God, he doesn't know what he did.
[00:45:35]  Well, what's crazy to me is like people will see that stuff and be like, oh my God, that's so crazy, whatever.
[00:45:40]  And I'm like, yeah, imagine that now with the full funding and fully like backed research of the U.S. military for half a century.
[00:45:48]  Exactly.
[00:45:49]  And that's it, half a century.
[00:45:50]  And in my book, I lay out several documents that show they had operational successes with this.
[00:45:57]  All right.
[00:45:57]  They were, they always put it in couch terms because they can't say, yeah, we were able to program somebody to kill somebody.
[00:46:03]  You can't say that because that's a crime.
[00:46:05]  That's murder.
[00:46:06]  And, but they all but say that.
[00:46:09]  They all but say that.
[00:46:10]  They stop right short of that line, but it's very clear that that's what has happened.
[00:46:16]  And this is something that probably is continuing to this day under different names.
[00:46:21]  When Watergate happened, Richard Nixon went to the CIA and said, You got a cover for me.
[00:46:28]  CI refused.
[00:46:30]  So Nixon fired Richard Helms.
[00:46:32]  Richard Helms then went and had all the MK Ultra and Project Darty Choke and all the mine control files burned.
[00:46:40]  And it's like, you wouldn't do that unless you had something serious to hide, right?
[00:46:45]  If they've never had any success, there's literally no reason to burn those files.
[00:46:50]  Yeah.
[00:46:50]  The only reason to burn them is because you've had some major successes you don't ever want to surface.
[00:46:56]  There are failures too.
[00:46:58]  I mean, there's that one woman in Canada.
[00:47:00]  I mean, there's some very prominent Candy Jones.
[00:47:04]  I guess I would say proven victims of.
[00:47:06]  I mean, obviously, there's probably many more that are unproven, but people who come out.
[00:47:12]  Like million-dollar lawsuits against the CIA in Canada because the McGill Institute up there was being funded by the CIA and they were doing these horrific psychic driving experiences where they were literally trying to wipe people's minds completely.
[00:47:27]  They turned that one woman into a vegetable.
[00:47:30]  I mean, these are people who, by the way, cut off monkey heads and sewed them on each other's body and tried to bring them back to life.
[00:47:40]  I mean, this is how crazy these people are.
[00:47:43]  They will stop at nothing because if you can do it to monkeys, how cool would it be to give your favorite spy a new body when his old body gets shot up?
[00:47:50]  I mean, they literally were doing these kinds of things.
[00:47:54]  These are sick people doing very sick experiments.
[00:47:59]  And it is not at all beyond the realm that they set Sirhan up in this plot.
[00:48:05]  And let's just now just one step back.
[00:48:08]  All right, let's say Sirhan is guilty for a second.
[00:48:10]  I don't believe that for a second, but let's just pretend for a moment he is.
[00:48:14]  Even so, he is now 77.
[00:48:17]  There are guys in their 20s and 30s who are really serious criminals who are not being jailed.
[00:48:22]  They're being released because our prisons are overcrowded and we can't bring them all in.
[00:48:27]  So it makes more sense to free Sirhan, who's at 77.
[00:48:31]  How big a threat is he going to be?
[00:48:32]  I mean, it's like he's weak.
[00:48:34]  He's old.
[00:48:34]  He can't run very fast.
[00:48:36]  Yeah.
[00:48:37]  You know, and he never had any crimes before.
[00:48:41]  He had a perfect record in prison.
[00:48:43]  Why wouldn't you parole somebody like that?
[00:48:46]  I don't want us to live in a country where one family's grief trumps the law.
[00:48:52]  And the way the laws were set up recently, anybody who is 26 or younger at the time of their crime in California must be prioritized for release.
[00:49:02]  So the parole board did follow the law and they had no reason to keep him based on his perfect record.
[00:49:09]  Also, Munier Sirhan went and got letters from the neighbors and they all said, Yeah, bring him here.
[00:49:14]  We don't care.
[00:49:14]  We trust him.
[00:49:15]  You know, we know that family.
[00:49:17]  We don't have a problem with him living here.
[00:49:19]  And that was a big factor in the parole board also releasing him.
[00:49:23]  So it's very disturbing to hear, like Kerry Kennedy.
[00:49:27]  I heard one of her interviews, and George Gascon, our Los Angeles DA, also, for the first time ever, said prosecutors should not attend parole hearings because their job ended at, you know, as soon as they were jailed.
[00:49:42]  Now it's really up to the prison system to decide when they're rehabilitated.
[00:49:46]  Because if you keep re, you know, processing the crime as if no one ever evolves or ever grows up or ever matures, that's just ridiculous.
[00:49:55]  And Kerry Kennedy is like, well, Gascon, that was just a ruling.
[00:49:59]  It's not a law.
[00:49:59]  And she's like, we're going to change that.
[00:50:01]  And I'm thinking, I hope you don't because a lot of people incorrectly jailed, not just Sir Han, there are a lot of people who should be freed.
[00:50:10]  And I do believe in redemption.
[00:50:12]  I am Catholic.
[00:50:13]  I was raised Catholic.
[00:50:14]  It's a huge tenant of the faith that redemption and forgiveness is like the highest thing you can do.
[00:50:21]  And the act of forgiveness is like the most important thing you can do as a Catholic.
[00:50:26]  And so if you cannot forgive this man, and like you said, and bonus, he's actually innocent, you know, then you're the one with the problem.
[00:50:35]  And that really disturbs me.
[00:50:37]  And like I said, I have great sympathy.
[00:50:39]  I am a friend of Robert Kennedy Jr.'s.
[00:50:41]  I love their father so much.
[00:50:44]  You know, Robert Kennedy was like my political idol.
[00:50:47]  I was like eight years old when I saw a little documentary on his life.
[00:50:51]  And the eight-year-old me said, oh my God, the best politician I will ever know has already died and I'm still a kid.
[00:50:59]  I literally had that thought.
[00:51:01]  And that's why it's hard to talk about him without getting emotional because I loved Robert Kennedy, but I love justice and truth too.
[00:51:11]  And for that reason, Sir Han must be freed, not should be, not could be, must be freed.
[00:51:18]  He didn't do it.
[00:51:19]  It was a crime the way society has put this on.
[00:51:23]  And again, the news media, it's as if no new facts have ever surfaced since Sir Han was first jailed, despite the LAPD's files weren't even released till 1988.
[00:51:34]  So there's like a 20-year blackout on this case.
[00:51:36]  When I found the files, they had only like four years old.
[00:51:40]  It was 1992.
[00:51:42]  The thing is with a lot of the files, too.
[00:51:43]  I mean, you mentioned the doorframe earlier.
[00:51:46]  That doorframe is no longer around.
[00:51:49]  Neither are thousands of photographs taken at the scene of it.
[00:51:53]  I mean, and this is.
[00:51:54]  Yet they kept these photographs that show nothing of significance.
[00:51:57]  So again, it's like the MK Ultra records.
[00:51:59]  You don't burn or my freaking Instagram.
[00:52:02]  Yeah, exactly.
[00:52:03]  It's like, if you're going to burn somebody, why didn't you burn these photos?
[00:52:06]  They don't show anything.
[00:52:07]  What did you really burn?
[00:52:08]  Yeah, the doorframe.
[00:52:10]  Well, so how is, yeah, how is so Sir Han Sirhan's been in prison since, I mean, Christianity, it's like, yeah, yeah.
[00:52:18]  One reason or another.
[00:52:19]  Yeah.
[00:52:21]  How have things been for him in there?
[00:52:23]  Like, how has he sort of like reacted over the years?
[00:52:26]  Because decades and decades and decades he's kept a low profile, but there have been incidents over the years.
[00:52:32]  There was a recent stabbing attempt where Sirhan was actually injured.
[00:52:36]  And it was interesting because that was right before his previous parole hearing.
[00:52:41]  It's like somebody didn't want him to get out of jail.
[00:52:43]  And at that point, he was literally reading my book.
[00:52:46]  When he finally got back to his cell like a week later, my book was gone.
[00:52:50]  I don't know if the prison officials took it or whatever, but he complained.
[00:52:53]  I'm actually sort of surprised considering the insane restrictions around getting books in prison and the stuff they let you have in there.
[00:53:02]  I'm surprised they let him have that.
[00:53:03]  Yeah, well, my publisher had to send it.
[00:53:05]  I was not allowed to send it.
[00:53:07]  No one else could send it, only the publisher.
[00:53:08]  And then they ripped the entire cover off.
[00:53:11]  So they don't have to do that.
[00:53:11]  So that's a big thing that they did.
[00:53:13]  Yeah.
[00:53:14]  But he did have a copy.
[00:53:15]  He was reading it.
[00:53:16]  He called me near.
[00:53:17]  He's like, oh my God, listen to this.
[00:53:20]  So that was very gratifying to me.
[00:53:22]  But then after the stabbing, and I asked my publisher to send him a new copy, she's like, well, what happened to the old copy?
[00:53:27]  I'm like, I don't know, but it's not there anymore.
[00:53:31]  Send him another one.
[00:53:32]  I hope she did.
[00:53:33]  I think she did.
[00:53:36]  What has his like, what has he said about what happened that night?
[00:53:41]  Like, what has he said about any possible case?
[00:53:44]  Yeah.
[00:53:45]  Yeah.
[00:53:47]  One, he said if paroled, he and his brother would be happy to leave the country if that would make people feel more comfortable.
[00:53:53]  You know, two, obviously, he's expressed, like I said, he's expressed remorse over and over at every parole hearing.
[00:53:58]  That's a big lie.
[00:54:00]  The media is like, he's never claimed responsibility.
[00:54:02]  He's never expressed remorse.
[00:54:03]  He's definitely expressed remorse, but he also has never claimed to remember what happened because he doesn't.
[00:54:09]  And I honestly believe him on this point.
[00:54:12]  And so people always say, oh, if you got to meet Siran, what would you ask him?
[00:54:16]  And I'm like, how does it feel to look at the sky?
[00:54:19]  You know, it's like, that's what I'd want to know because I know he doesn't remember.
[00:54:23]  And I don't want the last few years of his life for people to be, what do you remember about the pantry?
[00:54:28]  Because he doesn't remember.
[00:54:30]  It's like he really, truly doesn't.
[00:54:51]  Now, is this the first time that Sirhan has been up for parole?
[00:54:55]  No, it's like the 16th time.
[00:54:57]  Yes.
[00:54:58]  So, and he's been denied every time, but that's because, again, every time the prosecutors are there to argue to keep him in jail.
[00:55:06]  And so I think Gascon did a remarkable and generous thing.
[00:55:10]  And again, this wasn't just for Sirhan, it's for everybody.
[00:55:13]  Because, again, the prisons are overcrowded.
[00:55:16]  And old people are just not a threat.
[00:55:18]  They're not the same level of threat that the young people are.
[00:55:21]  And in Sirhan's case, again, he has a place to go.
[00:55:25]  And his brother is partially blind.
[00:55:27]  Munir could really use the help around the house.
[00:55:30]  You know, it's hard for him.
[00:55:31]  And to have an extra set of hands and eyes, you know, would be tremendous.
[00:55:36]  So it's like both brothers could help each other.
[00:55:39]  I think something that was surprising to me is watching the state intervene like over and over over the years.
[00:55:45]  I know that there was even something odd that I believe it was Kamala Harris's office when she was attorney general.
[00:55:53]  She like stepped in and said, even if there is evidence of a second shooter, it would have no impact on his parole, which makes absolutely no sense.
[00:56:04]  Right.
[00:56:05]  And I believe that was the auditory evidence.
[00:56:08]  Well, there was a request for a new evidentiary hearing, and that went to Kamala's desk.
[00:56:14]  And her feeling is like, even if there was a second shooter, he's still guilty.
[00:56:17]  So what's the point?
[00:56:19]  I'm like, but if there's a second shooter, maybe Sirhan wasn't the guy who killed Robert Kennedy.
[00:56:24]  And if he's a second shooter, then the whole story is different.
[00:56:28]  And as I said, what if he's the innocent Patsy set up to take the fall for a bigger plot?
[00:56:34]  And I read not only the writ, you know, requesting the new hearing, but I read the response and Kamala's office's response, which I believe was written by Mel Eyton.
[00:56:47]  And I have to say, it was like the most juvenile.
[00:56:51]  Those terrible, it was like name-calling of conspiracy theorists.
[00:56:55]  It was so unprofessional.
[00:56:58]  And Kamala signed that.
[00:57:00]  And I'm like, if I were Kamala, I'd say, even if I agree with you, this is unprofessional and juvenile.
[00:57:06]  You got to rewrite that.
[00:57:07]  There's no way I would.
[00:57:08]  She did like to run her office a certain way.
[00:57:10]  Kamala does not get to talk about conspiracy theorists when she has the Masonic police force working on her staff.
[00:57:17]  I don't even remember that story.
[00:57:19]  But no, you don't get to, that's, that's, that's, that, you don't get to do that.
[00:57:25]  Oh my gosh.
[00:57:26]  Yeah.
[00:57:27]  No, I was, I was not surprised that having lost all her primaries, you know, not winning one single primary, she became vice president.
[00:57:36]  This is the kind of payoff people get when they cover up crimes of state.
[00:57:41]  And in my book, I actually talk about how after the trial, everybody who participated in the cover-up got a bump in their career, every single one of them.
[00:57:49]  And the judge, who, you know, definitely interfered and did some pretty crazy things during the trial to make sure Sirhan went down that seemed extra-legal to me.
[00:57:59]  It turned out he had a nephew who had been jailed without the possibility of parole.
[00:58:04]  But after Sirhan was made guilty, then the judge gets the DA of LA to go represent his nephew.
[00:58:10]  And then his nephew gets a chance for parole.
[00:58:13]  It's like everybody got their little payoff.
[00:58:16]  It's just, you know, and I understand.
[00:58:19]  It's like, that's the way the world works, but that doesn't mean it should, it should work that way.
[00:58:24]  We should not roll over and just say, well, that's the way things happen.
[00:58:27]  No, we have to call it out at every turn and say, this is wrong.
[00:58:30]  You know, innocent people have gone to jail for this.
[00:58:34]  And by the way, one of the reasons I called my book a lie too big to fail is because if the LAPD ever admitted what they did to Sirhan and the way they framed him, guess what?
[00:58:46]  Sirhan wasn't the only one.
[00:58:48]  And there would be hundreds, if not thousands of cases that would need to be reopened.
[00:58:53]  And so it's very much in their interest and the county's interest to continue to repeat the lie because there's a huge, you know, financial liability if they admit guilt.
[00:59:04]  And so a lot of people, yeah, there's money at stake.
[00:59:06]  And bottom line, people aren't going to give up that money to free Sirhan, sadly.
[00:59:12]  Yeah, a lot of overlapping state interests, keeping him in jail and keeping, you know, the story from being investigated.

=== Definitive Account of Simi Valley (02:19) ===

[00:59:21]  Well, I thank you guys for being curious for one, being diligent for two.
[00:59:26]  Thanks for actually reading the book.
[00:59:28]  A lot of people told me that.
[00:59:30]  That's an excellent book.
[00:59:31]  Thank you.
[00:59:32]  No, we'll link to it in the notes.
[00:59:34]  Any of our listeners who are interested in the case, and as you should be, I mean, it's just meticulously documented.
[00:59:42]  It's difficult to convey over air because there's so much to get into.
[00:59:46]  But the amount of work that you've done and documentation and following, you know, scraps of paper and, you know, FBI files, LAPD files.
[00:59:57]  I mean, it's just really, really meticulous, incredible journalistic work.
[01:00:01]  Really, really incredible.
[01:00:02]  Yeah, I got to say, Lisa is not bullshitting you guys here today.
[01:00:07]  There is a insane amount of stuff that is just like, I'm sure that's how you must have felt at times because there is an incredible amount of stuff.
[01:00:17]  I think there's files all around me from when I wrote the book and I have not yet cleaned it up because I was tired for like three years after the book came out.
[01:00:26]  I'm slowly just now starting to put it all away.
[01:00:30]  Yes, but I mean, for me, it seems like it is the definitive account of what happened.
[01:00:35]  I mean, it is really excellent.
[01:00:38]  Thank you so much.
[01:00:38]  Thank you.
[01:00:39]  Thank you so much for writing it.
[01:00:42]  I had one, we got to wrap up, but I have one question I really want to ask, which is of every single person involved in this in any way, whether they were there that night or whether they were maybe operating behind the scenes, who would you most like to talk to under hypnosis about this?
[01:01:02]  Oh, boy.
[01:01:03]  Thane Caesar.
[01:01:05]  Who did that?
[01:01:07]  What was his exact role?
[01:01:09]  Because in my book, I argue that although I believe he made the three shots under the arm, I don't believe he made the headshots.
[01:01:15]  But I do believe he absolutely tried his best to kill him from his position.
[01:01:21]  But yeah, I'd love to get him to talk about his relationship with Mayhew and what his orders were.
[01:01:26]  If I could talk to anybody, that's who I'd want to talk to.
[01:01:29]  That's sort of what I figured.
[01:01:30]  It was either going to be him or Mayhew.
[01:01:32]  Yeah.
[01:01:34]  Mayhew would just lie, so why bother?
[01:01:36]  Thane.
[01:01:36]  I actually went to Thane Caesar's old house in Simi Valley.

=== Sandy's Orderly Tale (10:52) ===

[01:01:41]  You know, I'd been told, of course, he's moved to the Philippines, but he's still technically the owner of two properties in Simi Valley, or one of them anyway, for sure.
[01:01:49]  And so I called up Jim DiEuginio.
[01:01:51]  I'm like, Jim, you want to go to Thane's house?
[01:01:54]  He's like, Lisa, are we going to come back alive?
[01:01:56]  I said, I don't know, but let's go.
[01:02:01]  I mean, he's not going to shoot us on his doorstep in front of all the neighbors.
[01:02:06]  I just knew that was a pretty safe bet.
[01:02:08]  I figured he just wouldn't come out or whatever.
[01:02:10]  Well, maybe when your back is turned.
[01:02:11]  Yeah.
[01:02:11]  Yeah.
[01:02:12]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:02:14]  But I am fearless that way.
[01:02:16]  It's like, I want to know.
[01:02:17]  I'm not afraid to ask anybody anything.
[01:02:20]  Yeah, it's funny.
[01:02:21]  I actually ended up going to a restaurant right next to the former hotel.
[01:02:26]  Now, it's like a group.
[01:02:28]  It's like six schools.
[01:02:29]  It's the Kennedy.
[01:02:30]  It's the Robert F. Kennedy schools, yes.
[01:02:32]  And in fact, I testified at the school board hearing because they wanted to tear it down.
[01:02:37]  And I begged them to find a way to preserve the pantry for future testing.
[01:02:42]  Paul Schrade was actually upset at me for that because he's like, Lisa, it's rotting.
[01:02:46]  You know, it's like they can't do anything to save it anyway.
[01:02:49]  And the Kennedy family definitely didn't want a memorial.
[01:02:52]  They didn't want another Dealey Plaza where people go every year and talk about what happened there.
[01:02:58]  They wanted to turn a negative into a positive.
[01:03:00]  And I totally get that.
[01:03:02]  And I support them in that in the end.
[01:03:05]  But it is a shame because the embassy room is now the library for the schools.
[01:03:10]  But I don't think the kids there are ever told the story of what happened there.
[01:03:14]  And it's sad because it's like they're literally right there.
[01:03:18]  The steps Sandy Serrano sat on.
[01:03:20]  Oh, we didn't even talk about the girl in the polka dot dress.
[01:03:22]  Should we talk about that for a minute?
[01:03:24]  I do think it's important because we can't not.
[01:03:29]  Yeah, all witnesses with evidence of conspiracy that had gone public had to be discredited for the lone nut story to hold.
[01:03:37]  And so Sandra was the very first witness to conspiracy.
[01:03:41]  Right after the shooting, we're talking like 2 a.m., you know, like an hour and a half later.
[01:03:45]  She's on national TV in the morning telling this incredible story.
[01:03:50]  And she said, you know, before Kennedy came down to speak, I saw three people go up the stairs where I was sitting.
[01:03:56]  She was on the back southwest fire escape stairs at the hotel is weird because it's straddled like two ground levels.
[01:04:03]  There was like a higher ground level and a lower ground level because it was literally on a hill or a bank.
[01:04:09]  But she was like on the upper level where it wasn't ground level and there were stairs to the bottom.
[01:04:14]  And it was a hot, you know, night.
[01:04:16]  So she was sitting outside cooling off, and three people stepped over her and walked up.
[01:04:21]  And she noticed the girl, especially because she had a friend with a dress that was very similar.
[01:04:25]  So it just caught her attention.
[01:04:27]  And it was a girl in a white dress with dark polka dots and a guy in a gold shirt.
[01:04:32]  And then a young, slender, you know, guy in blue jeans and a blue top.
[01:04:37]  And that was Sirhan.
[01:04:38]  She didn't know that at the time, but that was Sirhan going up with them.
[01:04:42]  And then after the shooting, you know, all of a sudden there's this commotion, and two of the people come flying back out, but the guy in the blue shirt didn't because he was captured in the pantry.
[01:04:53]  And the girl is yelling as they're coming out the fire escape steps.
[01:04:57]  She's saying, We shot him, we shot him.
[01:04:59]  And Sandra goes, Who did you shoot?
[01:05:01]  And she said, Senator Kennedy, and ran off.
[01:05:03]  And Sandy made very clear that her attitude was like, Yay, we did it.
[01:05:08]  We got him.
[01:05:09]  And in my book, I explained that there was a guy right at that fire escape door who seemed to be part of the plot.
[01:05:16]  Two NBC wives of producers, NBC producers' wives basically saw this man, and it looked like he had a radio to his, you know, cheek most of the night.
[01:05:26]  And he looked very intense and serious in a way that didn't match the celebratory mood everybody else had because it was a victory party, right?
[01:05:34]  But he was a humpback guy.
[01:05:36]  Yeah, because people have often said, why would she run out yelling, we shot him?
[01:05:39]  And I think she was talking to the guy at the door who was probably stationed there to make sure it didn't get locked so they could get away.
[01:05:46]  And there were like five young women who saw the same pair, the girl in the white dress and the guy in the gold sweater with Sir Han.
[01:05:54]  So it wasn't just Sandy that saw that, but Sandy didn't know that and the police didn't tell her that.
[01:05:58]  Instead, they said, you couldn't have seen that.
[01:06:00]  You know, that doesn't make any sense.
[01:06:02]  The girl couldn't have said it.
[01:06:03]  She probably said they shot Kennedy.
[01:06:05]  She's like, I know what I heard.
[01:06:07]  I'm like, no, you don't, Sandy.
[01:06:09]  That's not what she said.
[01:06:11]  And the guy who put her on a lie detector test, first, they take her out to dinner.
[01:06:16]  She's underage, but he buys her wine and steak.
[01:06:19]  All right.
[01:06:20]  By 10 p.m. now, she's tired.
[01:06:22]  She's got a little wine in her, got steak, you know, feeling full, probably not all that comfortable.
[01:06:28]  And she'd brought her aunt with her because she didn't want to be alone with the police because she didn't trust them.
[01:06:32]  She'd already been interviewed a couple of times and they were kind of, you know, forcefully trying to get her to change her story even then.
[01:06:39]  So he brings her into the room and then the cop sends the aunt out of the room and the aunt leaves.
[01:06:46]  And I wanted to kill the aunt as I'm reading that because it's like, how dare you leave this young girl alone when the whole reason you're there is to protect her.
[01:06:55]  So I was really mad at the aunt.
[01:06:58]  And then a two-hour session starts.
[01:07:01]  So, like I said, she's already tired and whatever.
[01:07:04]  And now she's strapped in a chair.
[01:07:06]  She literally physically can't leave.
[01:07:07]  Yeah, that's what they do.
[01:07:09]  And he runs this like interrogation set.
[01:07:12]  She starts really simple and generous, but then it gets more and more harsh.
[01:07:16]  You know, if you love the Kennedys, you wouldn't say this.
[01:07:19]  You wouldn't make up this story.
[01:07:21]  And I actually quote a large part of the transcript in my book because they didn't just do it to Sandy.
[01:07:27]  They did this kind of thing to everybody with witnesses that had evidence of conspiracy.
[01:07:32]  It just, they weren't trying to find the truth.
[01:07:35]  They were trying to create a truth for the public that had nothing to do with what they actually knew or had found.
[01:07:42]  And that shouldn't happen.
[01:07:44]  And less people believe that like the girl in a polka dot dress is like a meme or like kind of like a, you know, like the umbrella man, you know, one of these like sort of like 24 witnesses to her in my exactly.
[01:07:56]  In fact, I was on the set of the film Bobby in part because I offered them free help.
[01:08:01]  You know, I was like the only one who didn't want a fee to be a consultant.
[01:08:05]  And so, and I took my girl, my polka dress.
[01:08:08]  I'm like, you just somewhere in one of the scenes, you have to have a girl in a polka dot dress.
[01:08:13]  And here's why.
[01:08:14]  And I showed his researcher, and I had arranged the files like in progressive order.
[01:08:19]  And literally, her jaw hung lower and lower and lower and lower as she went through the file.
[01:08:26]  I wish I had filmed it because it's like by the end of it, she looked at me like, oh my God, there was a girl in a polka dot dress there.
[01:08:34]  And she was part of the plot.
[01:08:36]  It was so obvious when you go through because, again, the witness statements all match.
[01:08:40]  They all describe the same girl.
[01:08:42]  And anyway, read the book, read the book.
[01:08:45]  It's much more.
[01:08:47]  I will say it is, there is a ton.
[01:08:49]  I mean, even just on the polka dot dress stuff, the detail about the LAPD buying a bunch of polka dot dresses and showing them to people.
[01:08:57]  I would love to know what happened to their LAPD's personal collection of dresses.
[01:09:04]  And then they tried to say because Vince DiPiro and Sandy hadn't identified the exact same dress, that proved there was no such girl.
[01:09:12]  It's like, well, none of the dresses were the exact dress.
[01:09:15]  So they had differing opinions about which one was closest, you know.
[01:09:18]  And this woman to date has never been positively identified for sure.
[01:09:22]  I mean, there are people who've made like allegations about who she is, but yeah.
[01:09:25]  Yeah, every year somebody calls me with a new, you know, it's this girl and here's why.
[01:09:30]  And I always hear them out.
[01:09:31]  And by the end of it, it's like, nope, nope, you don't have it.
[01:09:34]  And then they get all upset with me.
[01:09:36]  It's like, sorry, you don't have it.
[01:09:39]  Well, Lisa, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on.
[01:09:43]  Such a pleasure.
[01:09:44]  Thank you all so much.
[01:09:46]  Where can our semi-literate troglodyte type listeners crawl out of their caves and use their one remaining functional eye to go and buy your book?
[01:09:58]  Oh my gosh.
[01:09:58]  If you're in the LA area, it's at the bookstore near me.
[01:10:03]  Barnes and Noble carries it.
[01:10:05]  Amazon, of course, carries it.
[01:10:07]  But please support independent bookstores if you can.
[01:10:10]  Those who don't have it can buy it.
[01:10:12]  So it's like they can order it for you.
[01:10:14]  So please support your independent bookstores.
[01:10:17]  They're the only ones.
[01:10:18]  I couldn't have written this had it not been for little books I found in like used bookstores around town because a lot of the good books disappear quickly.
[01:10:27]  So support your local bookstore.
[01:10:29]  Or, and if you can't do that, go to the library.
[01:10:31]  The libraries have it.
[01:10:32]  So, but it's also on Kindle.
[01:10:34]  It's also on audio.
[01:10:36]  There is an audio audible.
[01:10:38]  Do you read it in the audiobook version?
[01:10:41]  I do not.
[01:10:41]  But I did want a woman just because, yeah, I wanted to originally.
[01:10:46]  And then they said it's going to be like 500 hours of recording.
[01:10:49]  And then I'm like, oh my God, I don't have that much time.
[01:10:54]  It's like, I work full time.
[01:10:55]  I mean, that's the thing.
[01:10:57]  It's like, I did all this working full time.
[01:10:58]  That's why I'm single.
[01:10:59]  I have no life, no, not exercising enough.
[01:11:04]  There's like 90% of our listeners are like, yeah, I know.
[01:11:07]  Yeah, me too.
[01:11:11]  Well, I mean, good company then.
[01:11:13]  Well, Lisa, it has been a pleasure.
[01:11:15]  Thank you so much.
[01:11:37]  So we are absolutely including a link to the book in the show notes.
[01:11:42]  You should check it out.
[01:11:43]  Like we said in the show, it is really exceptionally researched.
[01:11:47]  And I think that the evidence is pretty overwhelming.
[01:11:51]  Yeah.
[01:11:52]  Yeah.
[01:11:52]  Lisa was, I think, telling us, I believe this is when we were not recording.
[01:11:55]  She's like, I get, she tells me she gets frustrated, or she told us she gets frustrated doing radio interviews sometimes because it sounds so fantastic that like, you know, she's just like, it's like a coast-to-coast guest or something.
[01:12:04]  But let me tell you, a lot of footnotes in this motherfucker.
[01:12:07]  Yeah, totally.
[01:12:08]  No, I can imagine that would be frustrating because it's, you know, there's so much you want to cover in order to impress on the audience how, you know, impressive the amount of evidence for your case is.
[01:12:20]  But also, that means that you can't be as meticulous in the amount of detail that you can get into.
[01:12:26]  So for that reason and for so many more, we highly, highly recommend True Anonymous of Approval.

=== Why Balls in Packaging? (03:15) ===

[01:12:33]  Maybe there's a fun little sound that you just made one with your game.
[01:12:37]  I heard you did a good pop.
[01:12:39]  You went to please do that again.
[01:12:42]  No, no, let's get it.
[01:12:43]  We'll get a big fun.
[01:12:45]  No, no, don't.
[01:12:47]  Yes, unfair.
[01:12:48]  No, this is just fellas talk here.
[01:12:50]  Liz, don't listen.
[01:12:51]  Just turn up on when she does that.
[01:12:54]  I thought that was, I thought that was nice.
[01:12:56]  It was Was funny sounding.
[01:12:59]  Yeah, we also, uh, we do, by the way, if you are a book writer, we do charge authors only five thousand dollars book writer, like an author of a book.
[01:13:09]  Uh, and you want whatever the book is about, whatever the subject, whatever the length, whatever you want to say, uh, I will blurb it uh for five thousand.
[01:13:20]  Liz does it for six thousand, and Young Chomsky does it for a really long hug.
[01:13:23]  Yeah, can't be self-published, though.
[01:13:25]  No, can't.
[01:13:25]  Well, yes, it cannot be self-published.
[01:13:27]  You have to publish through Amazon because we also get most of the share from your book profit-wise.
[01:13:34]  All right, anyways, let's wrap this.
[01:13:36]  Let's wrap this up.
[01:13:38]  I, my name, whenever we have like a really sweet guest, I feel like I can't really go to the business.
[01:13:44]  What drink are you drinking?
[01:13:45]  I'm not saying that, first of all, I'm drinking two drinks.
[01:13:49]  Uh, I well, actually, this one is called balls, he's drinking a drink called balls.
[01:13:53]  I was at the damn store, they sell, they sell at this it's called you don't know that this drink has been around for a long time.
[01:14:02]  And when I saw it at this store, it also kind of be real.
[01:14:06]  Lisa, if you're still listening, don't listen to this part.
[01:14:08]  It looks like a condom because it's like studded.
[01:14:10]  What?
[01:14:11]  Yeah, it doesn't look like a weird, like a French tickler or something.
[01:14:15]  I don't like it, it looks like an esoteric condom you'd purchase for a quarter in a bathroom.
[01:14:20]  Uh, and uh, but it is a drink that's been around for a long time.
[01:14:24]  It was an energy drink.
[01:14:26]  I remember, you know, people used to drink around.
[01:14:27]  Are you drinking it?
[01:14:28]  That's an energy drink?
[01:14:29]  I think it is.
[01:14:30]  It's a guarana.
[01:14:31]  Oh, I guess it's a soda.
[01:14:32]  Oh, it's a soda called balls?
[01:14:35]  Guarana.
[01:14:36]  Wait, you're drinking an energy drink called balls.
[01:14:39]  It's not an energy drink, it's a soda.
[01:14:41]  It says soda on it.
[01:14:43]  No, something with that in it is an energy drink.
[01:14:47]  Wait, it says manufactured for balls.
[01:14:49]  Twinsburg, Ohio, 44087.
[01:14:53]  Yeah, this was around when I was very young.
[01:14:56]  And then I was in the freaking store earlier and I saw it on for sale.
[01:15:00]  And I was like, I'll grab me a balls.
[01:15:04]  I'm Liz.
[01:15:05]  My name is Brace, and I'm sorry for anybody who was offended by what Liz said earlier because I thought that was really rude of her.
[01:15:13]  We're joined by producer Young Chomsky, who's thankfully cruel comments to me you couldn't hear, but I know he was thinking of them.
[01:15:20]  He's producing this, but I wish he could produce maybe a nicer personality for the two people that are mean to me.
[01:15:24]  The podcast is called Truanon.
[01:15:27]  And we'll see you next time.
[01:15:28]  Bye-bye.
[01:15:48]  Come out.