True Anon Truth Feed - Episode 143: Haiti Aired: 2021-03-11 Duration: 53:33 === Joke About Rogan-Rhymes-with-Hogan (02:55) === [00:00:00] Why are we constrained by the cold open format? [00:00:03] We're not Bubba the Love Sponge. [00:00:06] Okay, first of all, we are absolutely not. [00:00:10] Bubba the Love Sponge? [00:00:11] Yeah, we are not that. [00:00:13] Well, I'm technically, I mean, I think. [00:00:16] Are you love sponge adjacent? [00:00:17] No, but you know, I was involved with the Hogan thing. [00:00:20] And so it's like, oh my goodness. [00:00:21] I mean, I'm not him, but I'm of him, if you know. [00:00:24] Has that been, anyone ever mentioned that Hogan rhymes with Rogan? [00:00:30] In what context would anyone mention that? [00:00:32] I don't know. [00:00:32] I just thought of it. [00:00:33] Wait a minute. [00:00:34] Here's the perfect time to announce this. [00:00:36] We are announcing after a 10-year multi-phase planning phase, that is sub-phases of the regular phase there, the Truanon road to Rogan. [00:00:48] I need to go to Joe Rogan's house with Liz riding on my shoulders like two children in a trench coat and young Chomsky driving us in some kind of convertible. [00:00:58] Also are several unpaid interns serving as the wheels of the convertible. [00:01:02] I want to go to Joe Rogan's house and see what kind of toiletries he has and get him on the pod. [00:01:10] Yeah, let's do it. [00:01:11] We don't want to go on Rogan's show. [00:01:13] We need Rogan on our show. [00:01:15] I wonder if that's possible. [00:01:17] If you know Joe Rogan, if you are in the synthol community, if you are in the Synthol 2 community, which is the synthol that actually is permanent, that stays in the muscles and work really good. [00:01:27] If you are in the supplements community, or if you are in the short guy community, actually, if you're in that final community, no need to call us. [00:01:59] I am, listen, I want to be clear, clear the air here. [00:02:02] I am 5'4 ⁇ , legally a gnome, so you can't get mad at me for what I said back then. [00:02:08] I have no idea what you're referring to, but I will say I affirm and agree with you. [00:02:18] Okay. [00:02:18] Hello, everyone. [00:02:19] Hi. [00:02:19] My name is Liz. [00:02:20] My name is Bailey Button Belden, named after the height I come up to on most average-sized men. [00:02:27] And we are, of course, joined by Young Chomsky. [00:02:30] And the podcast is called Truanon. [00:02:33] Liz, hello. [00:02:34] Hello, Brace. [00:02:35] How are you doing? [00:02:36] I'm doing good. [00:02:37] I'm actually doing fantastic. [00:02:41] No, you know, that's a lie. [00:02:42] I'm just doing all right. [00:02:43] Yeah. [00:02:44] I am pretty angry. [00:02:46] At what? [00:02:48] At a whole lot of things. [00:02:49] I have to say, I was doing a bunch of reading for the episode today. [00:02:53] You and I were talking. === Current Protests in Haiti (05:04) === [00:02:55] And man, nothing gets my blood boiling like talking about the way the U.S. interferes in Haiti. [00:03:03] It really, there's something about it that just real heartbreaking and infuriating to read about. [00:03:12] Yeah, I'll 100% agree with that. [00:03:14] I mean, doing the research for this episode, I think I've read about as much as, no, I think I probably read a little more on Haiti than some people, but I've read Black Jacobin. [00:03:25] I keep up on this kind of stuff a little bit. [00:03:28] But really getting into the granular details of the stuff is fucking heartbreaking. [00:03:32] I mean, my God, it's the way that the international community has, and we talk about this interview, essentially stripped Haiti of its sovereignty. [00:03:42] And really, Haiti has never been granted sovereignty ever since they declared themselves independent from France. [00:03:48] It's just like, it's incredible. [00:03:50] Yeah, yeah, it's real infuriating stuff. [00:03:54] We should just get into it, I think. [00:03:56] Yeah, we got an interview. [00:03:57] There's no intro we can do that will do this interview justice. [00:04:01] Let's just get into it. [00:04:13] All right. [00:04:14] And for today's interview, we have Dr. Jamima Pierre, an organizer for Black Alliance for Peace and a professor in the department's two departments of African American Studies in the Department of Anthropology at UCLA. [00:04:26] Thank you for joining us. [00:04:30] Yeah, I think we should probably just start with current events because we brought you here to talk about Haiti. [00:04:36] And Haiti is once again in the news for mostly the only reason it's in the news in America, which is that there are protests, there are images of burning cars and rioters and stuff like that, with not a ton of backstory given to those images. [00:04:51] And if there is a backstory, it is very superficial. [00:04:55] And so I'd like to ask, what is the story with the current protests? [00:04:58] Why are people protesting? [00:05:00] How long have they been protesting? [00:05:01] And yeah, what's the story? [00:05:03] Okay, so on February 7th, right, 2021, the five-year term of the current president, Jovenel Moise, was set to expire. [00:05:13] He has refused to step down. [00:05:16] And in response, political parties, oppositional parties, student groups, Federation of Lawyers, workers, everyone has been protesting, demanding that he step down. [00:05:30] And the thing about this is people are calling it a constitutional crisis. [00:05:38] So we have to understand what that means and why he thinks Moise thinks he has one more year. [00:05:44] And everyone else, Moise and the Western governments think that Moise has one more year. [00:05:50] And everyone else, including the Haitian Constitution, says that his term is over. [00:05:54] So according to the Article 134.1 of the 1987 Haitian Constitution, which is the one that Haiti uses, says the five-year term of a president begins and ends on February 7th, following the date of the elections, right? [00:06:15] However, Article 134.2, which is the next one, says that even if there are delays in the election, the president-elect enters into his functions immediately after the validation of the ballots and his mandate is considered to have commenced on February 7th of the year of the election. [00:06:33] So in Moiz's case, since the initial election was validated November 2016, after a lot of delays and irregularities and problems with the 2015 election, his term according to the Constitution began February 2016, not February 2017. [00:06:52] So members of Haitian civil society, including the Haitian Bar Association, Haitian Bar Federation, have argued that since his term began in 2016, it should end 2021. [00:07:05] Moise instead has rejected this argument, claiming that his term in office ends in 2022. [00:07:11] Now, it's important then to step back and understand why Moise is arguing this. [00:07:19] First of all, why he can, why he can get away with just saying, I'm not stepping down despite protests, but also how it is that he came to power, because it's just as important to know that Moise does not have the mandate of the people. [00:07:35] So before I do that, though, I have to say also that Moise has been ruling by decree since 2020, where he dissolved parliament, right? [00:07:44] And then with the judges that went against, when the Haitian Bar Federation went against his say that his term was up, that he would have one more year, he basically fired all the judges and basically replaced him. === Haiti's Oil Wealth and Dictatorship (14:27) === [00:07:59] So he's basically running by decree after decree, and there's no parliament, there's nothing going on in Haiti. [00:08:05] Would you call him a dictator? [00:08:07] Some people have referred to him. [00:08:09] I call him dictator in the making because this sets up all, this sets up everything for him to be a dictator. [00:08:17] Because what's also happening, he has constructed this large security force, which he's armed. [00:08:26] And I don't know if you, if you see how the police respond to Haitians, you have to wonder that Haiti is supposedly the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. [00:08:35] And so you have to wonder, where are all the arms and the armor and all the stuff that the police have? [00:08:40] Where are they coming from? [00:08:41] And they're given to him by his Western backers. [00:08:45] There's also a pretty bad track record in a lot of these nations, especially, you know, sort of under Western aegis, but I mean, in Haiti in particular, of private intelligence security forces, you know, being sort of unleashed upon the people. [00:09:00] Right. [00:09:00] And being armed, right? [00:09:02] And these are not, and so he created his own private force, but it's also the U.S. and the OAS and Canada are the ones that actually help, you know, basically revive, help pay for the reviving of the Haitian military and reintegrating a lot of the military into the Haitian National Police. [00:09:20] So they fund, the U.S. funds the Haitian National Police. [00:09:23] So that's that. [00:09:25] But the Moise has never been popular. [00:09:27] So these protests are actually not new. [00:09:30] So you have to know that he was unknown until 2015 when he entered the political arena. [00:09:36] And he was handpicked by his predecessor, who was a, you know, if you think about Uganda and Bobby Wine, by Michelle Martelli, who was also a popular singer, but who was also very a right-wing popular singer and a Duvalierist. [00:09:53] I don't know if you guys know about the history of the Duvalier. [00:09:56] So Michelle Martelli, Papa, and Baby Doc, right? [00:09:59] So Michelle Martelli handpicks Jovenel Moise, but Michelle Martelli's presidential election was also handpicked. [00:10:08] He was penpicked by the U.S. government. [00:10:10] And this is what we have to know. [00:10:11] And this is under Obama, right? [00:10:12] So we see the consistency of U.S. policy towards Haiti no matter the administration, right? [00:10:19] Because George Bush deposed the elected president, Aristide, right? [00:10:25] And then Obama installed Michelle Martelli. [00:10:29] And then you have now Trump maintaining Moyes and helping to install Moise. [00:10:35] And now you have Biden supporting Moise. [00:10:38] So this is a consistent policy, right? [00:10:41] Biden said Moyes will not be out, will stay in power until 2022. [00:10:46] Which is why he's emboldened, right? [00:10:48] And so that's the other thing, right? [00:10:50] So Michelle Martelli was hand-selected by the Obama administration. [00:10:57] And if you read the WikiLeaks files, it's clear, right? [00:11:01] So for example, so it was the earthquake, the devastating earthquake that killed hundreds of thousands of people, you know, and it was the year that the election was supposed to occur. [00:11:11] And the government was like, well, we don't have the means to do the elections. [00:11:15] We need to take the time. [00:11:18] So the U.S. is forcing them to do elections because they wanted to install who they wanted. [00:11:22] They had taken over airspace. [00:11:23] By this time, there were thousands of military from the U.S. and Canada and France and Haiti. [00:11:29] So when he, President Preval, back then, he was elected popular, when he said no, they flew in, Hillary Clinton flew in the core group, and basically said the leader of the core group, which is another group we can talk about, basically told him, and this was in WikiLeaks, the WikiLeaks 12, that we have a plane for you outside, and we give you 48 hours to leave if you don't allow us. [00:11:57] if you don't let this election go the way we want it to go. [00:12:01] At which point, Preval responds and said, well, I'm not Aristide. [00:12:04] I'm more like Salvador Allende, which is amazing, right? [00:12:11] Yeah, yeah. [00:12:13] But the point of it is that what they did was they, so when the elections happened, very low turnout. [00:12:20] The OAS came in, OAS monitors, and the U.S. paid $38 million to force these elections. [00:12:27] And they basically removed the name. [00:12:31] There were all kinds of irregularities. [00:12:33] And there's a former OAS member who, Ricardo Stefanis, who's a Brazilian professor and was a representative of OAS, has a book that details how it is that OAS basically changed the votes at the different ballot stations. [00:12:48] And even when they tried to change the votes, it came into Martelli came in third place. [00:12:52] When Martelli came in third place, there was a runoff. [00:12:54] And so they demanded that Martelli be put into second place to run the elections. [00:12:59] And they demanded that. [00:13:00] And so that's what happened. [00:13:01] So Martelli became president with under 20% of the votes, right, of the people. [00:13:05] And it should mention, too, that Aristide's party was banned from running in that election. [00:13:10] That's an important, and that's the most popular party, right? [00:13:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:13:14] It was completely banned. [00:13:15] And that's the U.S. and the OAS as well. [00:13:18] So the most popular party was banned from running the elections. [00:13:20] You're absolutely right. [00:13:21] And then they handpicked this musician who, you know, the truth is a lot of us know was not even a Haitian citizen, right? [00:13:29] He was a U.S. citizen living in Florida. [00:13:33] And, you know, a few days before the elections, apparently they found his Haitian passport, right? [00:13:37] So we have to like really speak about this. [00:13:40] But we also have to wonder why is it that they can get away with, they don't even hide it, right? [00:13:45] When it comes to gaming, it's so blatant. [00:13:47] And they can get away with that. [00:13:49] I would say, too, that, I mean, I think them making it blatant is also part of the point, right? [00:13:54] It's like a sadistic edge that it's like showing you, it's insult to injury to make a point. [00:14:01] Exactly, exactly. [00:14:02] So this is how Martelli came into power. [00:14:04] And immediately he restarted the Haitian army, which was banned under Aristide because it was so notorious for its brutality because it was the army of baby dog and Papa Doc. [00:14:18] And the U.S. helped fund that. [00:14:19] The U.S. also helped fund reintegrating. [00:14:22] And this is, I have all these WikiLeaks styles, right? [00:14:25] Know fine talking about how we're going to integrate these former military officials into the Haitian police and so on. [00:14:30] So, when Moise comes into power, his mandate is even less than Marteli, and people did not want him at all. [00:14:37] So, they were protesting. [00:14:38] And I write about this because the protests, so the protests today are today. [00:14:42] But before that, in 2017, there were massive protests and strikes all over the country because the IMF was trying to cut Haitian oil subsidies because Venezuela had this plan with Haiti, Petro Carib. [00:14:58] So, now you see the connection between Haiti and Venezuela. [00:15:00] And one of the, I have to say, as an aside, one of the reasons that Moise got Trump's support was when he recognized one Guaido over Maduro, which really scandalized Haitians. [00:15:12] Haitians love Venezuela and they love Hugo Chavez, right? [00:15:17] Could you explain for our listeners what Petro Carib is? [00:15:21] Yes. [00:15:21] Or was, rather, I guess. [00:15:23] Yes, so Petro Carib is really what turned the U.S. government against Preval, the previous president, because in 2007, in 2005, Hugo Chavez, when oil prices were high, Hugo Chavez created this Petro Carib initiative that would benefit Caribbean nations with Venezuelan oil, cheap oil. [00:15:42] And it was established by Hugo Chavez to provide discounted oil for a number of Caribbean nations. [00:15:47] And this is, you know, soft power diplomacy, whatever you want to call it. [00:15:50] Yeah, yeah. [00:15:51] And it was in a way to allow money to be saved, to be used, the money saved from purchasing oil to be used by these nations for development projects. [00:15:59] So when oil prices were high at $100 per barrel, Venezuela provided oil to these nations where they only had to pay 60% of the price of the oil upfront. [00:16:09] And then they were allowed a 25-year delay in repaying the total bill at 1% interest. [00:16:16] So it's a pretty good deal. [00:16:17] Fantastic. [00:16:17] That's an amazing deal. [00:16:20] And Chavez called it a platform of energy corporation. [00:16:24] And so that money was supposed to help with development and so on. [00:16:28] But Petro Carib really raised the ire of the U.S. as it impacted the commercial interests, of course, of the major oil corporations, Chevron, and especially ExxonMobil. [00:16:37] And so what the WikiLeaks cable revealed is that Haiti's participation was a constant point of contention for the U.S. relationship with former President René Preval. [00:16:47] But in 2017, investigations by the Haitian Senate revealed that Michel Martelli and then Moise, who came after him, basically stole $2 billion of the Petro Carib funds. [00:17:02] Like on the top, basically. [00:17:04] Off the top. [00:17:04] Took all the money and was redirected to private hands, right? [00:17:09] And a number of officials from Marteli's government were implicated. [00:17:14] And Moyiz benefited directly from the embezzlement of funds. [00:17:18] And partly because all of a sudden he came from out of nowhere and then they called him the banana man, that he had thousands of acres of banana plantations, which actually were given to him by the predecessor to make it seem like he was an entrepreneur. [00:17:29] Yeah, yeah, that seems to be like the sort of deflection by a lot of the people who have been named in this scandal is that they're saying, actually, we're successful businessmen. [00:17:39] And, you know, it's that's, I didn't take any money. [00:17:42] These development projects just didn't get built because I don't know, maybe some people, you know, it's incompetence lower down. [00:17:49] But actually, like, you know, these millions of dollars I made as a Haitian parliamentarian is totally, totally exactly. [00:17:57] And I have to say, because it's, you know, to not make this just about Haitian corruption, because we also know about Donald Trump. [00:18:02] But the point is that to think about, you know, how the Red Cross raised, for example, half a billion dollars and built six houses. [00:18:12] And you still don't know what those are. [00:18:13] Famously, yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:18:14] Yeah, yeah. [00:18:15] You want to see those houses because I haven't seen them, right? [00:18:17] Well, the whole, the whole like UN rebuilding, I mean, Bill Clinton and his yes and stealing the money. [00:18:23] The foundation, all their buddies became rich off of Haiti. [00:18:28] And that's billions and billions and billions of dollars. [00:18:30] You know, it's funny because that has in the past, you know, it kind of started a little bit before Hillary Clinton's run, but it suddenly anyone who wanted to look into, and there was some excellent reporting at the time, although not enough, what the hell was going on with the Clinton Foundation in Haiti has been totally smeared as right-wing conspirators that, oh, it's just like, you know, Clinton body count stuff, looking, you know, totally like online kooks, Alex Jones level. [00:18:59] But like, I mean, the amount of corruption that happened post-Hurricane in the wake of like, you know, the earthquake in the wake of the hurricane in Haiti is incomprehensible. [00:19:10] I mean, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's a fucking horror show. [00:19:15] It is. [00:19:15] And it, and that's why it's, it's important to focus on Moyez, but I don't focus on him as like, you know, the ultimate boogeyman, right? [00:19:22] He's not the reason that all this is happening. [00:19:25] Right. [00:19:25] Right. [00:19:25] He's a symptom of you. [00:19:26] Exactly. [00:19:27] He's a symptom of a very big corrupt problem. [00:19:30] So for example, you know, when Martelli came into power, the other thing is Haiti has like billions of dollars of oil, millions of dollars of oil that they know there exists there. [00:19:41] About, you know, a really big, you know, comparable to Venezuela, which has the largest deposits of oil. [00:19:47] So think about that, right? [00:19:49] And then oil, and then all the minerals. [00:19:51] So there's a lot of gold, a lot of minerals. [00:19:54] So there's that. [00:19:55] But the first, and Haiti's constitution does not allow mining contracts to be given to foreigners. [00:20:00] So up until 2012, Haiti's constitution did not allow foreigners to own land, especially because after the slave trade, I mean, after the end of slavery, you know, the constitution said no white man should ever own land in Haiti. [00:20:14] Well, that's yeah, Haiti Haiti among all the Caribbean nations has like the smallest white population, I think, partly because of the policies enacted after the revolution. [00:20:23] Yeah, and then we have a Polish population because they help fight against the British and the French. [00:20:28] Liz, you guys are down there. [00:20:30] Yeah, it's pretty cool. [00:20:31] So, so there's that. [00:20:32] And so, you could not own land. [00:20:34] And then, when the Marines occupied Haiti in 1915, they rewrote that constitution to open it up. [00:20:39] So, but so back to today, though, what we have to know about is the first mining contract after the election of Martelli was given to Hillary Clinton's brother, right? [00:20:51] Oh, yeah. [00:20:52] Gold mining contract in Haiti. [00:20:54] And Clinton made so much money that the first thing he did with that recovery fund was have two hotels built so that one hotel is still in Haiti, right? [00:21:03] So, it's like investors. [00:21:04] So, he basically got in cahoots with the elites, and there's a vampiristic elite in Haiti. [00:21:10] And mostly from, you know, it's 11-time and European elite. [00:21:15] So, that's the other thing. [00:21:16] I don't know if you've seen the picture of the elite. [00:21:18] They're, you know, they're from the Middle East, and then they're from Italy and they're from France. [00:21:24] And so, there's a group of like 12 to 15 families that run all the businesses that own the ports that work in cahoots with these international organizations and to fleece the country. [00:21:36] Yeah, you mentioned the OAS and the Red Cross. [00:21:41] And I think that a lot of people have this idea about these international, you know, you hear these names, international organizations. [00:21:47] There's this idea that they're somehow like they're just above politics. [00:21:51] They're non-biased. [00:21:52] They're international. [00:21:53] Therefore, they have no ties anywhere. [00:21:57] They have a charter of human rights. [00:21:59] Yeah, I mean, you know, the UN. [00:22:02] Yeah, and all of these, you know, I think people are a bit smarter about the IMF, but still, you know, all of these organizations have big footprints in Haiti and have for a very long time. [00:22:14] And they're pretty much anything but on the side of the people. [00:22:18] Right. [00:22:19] They're not benevolent. [00:22:19] And you have to wonder: if Haiti is such a, you know, poor, worthless island, why are they so invested? === UN Mission's Power Dynamics (15:59) === [00:22:27] So think about this. [00:22:28] The UN mission in Haiti, which is a Chapter 7, which is actually illegal because Chapter 6 missions are, you know, they come in, they help, and, you know, they're not supposed to be, they're supposed to be temporary to come and help. [00:22:42] The Chapter 7 mission requires the consent of the government to come in. [00:22:47] Haiti did not have a government when they signed the decree to send the UN mission because the US was occupying it through Bush and they brought in the UN mission. [00:22:54] But then all these nations got together, including Brazil, and they decided to do this. [00:22:58] And so, and they were supposed to be there temporarily. [00:23:02] When you go to Haiti, there are UN missions, permanent structures all over the country. [00:23:07] And it's clear they're not leaving. [00:23:09] Not only that, the U.S. built the fourth largest embassy in the world in Haiti, right? [00:23:15] So after Iraq, right? [00:23:17] That's the largest embassy after the one in Iraq. [00:23:19] And so that means they're planning to be there for a long time. [00:23:23] And so in addition to the minerals, the oil, there's also the geopolitical need of Haiti, where Haiti is where it's located. [00:23:33] It's supposed to be the next staging ground for Southcom, right? [00:23:36] So they want to be able to establish a presence to fight off the leftist governments of South America. [00:23:42] Could you explain what Southcom is real quick? [00:23:45] The Southern Command, the Military Command. [00:23:47] There's a Southern Command that basically, you know, similar to AFRICOM, which is the Black Alliance for Peace, really focuses on AFRICOM, which is the Africa Command. [00:23:56] And the idea of basically having a military presence throughout the Western Hemisphere. [00:24:02] But Haiti allows passage through Asia, right, through the Panama Canal, if you go through there. [00:24:06] But there's an island called Molé St. Nicholas, which the U.S. government has been wanting from Haiti since independence. [00:24:12] In fact, when Frederick Douglass was the ambassador to Haiti right after independence, he was sent there to actually try to negotiate for this little island, right? [00:24:24] Because it's so clear, you know, so the way that you hear generals describe Haitians, that the Haitian island, it's the perfect island for them because they don't, you know, the ports, you know, the coastline can take navies and so on and so forth. [00:24:37] But also as Guantanamo, they have to return Guantanamo to Cuba. [00:24:42] They're going to need a staging place for the U.S. military. [00:24:45] So you need Haiti geopolitically for that reason and so on. [00:24:49] So there's a lot of reasons. [00:24:50] In addition to the fact that as the first, you know, black republic that destroys white supremacy and slavery in the world, you know, there's this continued need to bring it to its knees. [00:25:04] And we can't discount that reality as well. [00:25:08] I know, in a way, I think that has sort of been like, that exists like on this, not subconscious, because I do think it is conscious layer, but like, I think it has sort of been in the blood of like Haitian and American European relations for this entire time that it runs through everything, even if people aren't necessarily like on the top, it's not on the top of their head. [00:25:30] I mean, you know, Haiti was excluded from the Monroe Doctrine. [00:25:35] You know, Haiti was, you know, the president, I can't remember who it was, but they wouldn't even like open Haitian correspondence because they didn't want to recognize it as a republic. [00:25:43] I mean, it is really astounding. [00:25:45] And, you know, you talk about the peacekeepers too. [00:25:48] It's like the peacekeepers' presence in Haiti has not been one like that people might imagine bringing stability and bringing development and stuff like that. [00:25:57] I mean, peacekeepers famously very responsible for rapes, responsible for looting, a giant cholera outbreak. [00:26:04] I think the first cholera outbreak ever in Haiti. [00:26:07] Because they dump feces, dirty water into the main water source of the middle of the country. [00:26:14] That's how they got, you know. [00:26:16] So that story used to be on YouTube. [00:26:18] So I even have a picture of the UN, because I saved that picture because they removed it from YouTube, where you see the UN truck dumping, you know, feces water into this river, which ended up killing, you know, anyone, people say between 10 and 30,000 people, but sickening almost a million people. [00:26:36] Right. [00:26:36] And the UN refused for the first five years after the cholera outbreak, refused to acknowledge it, take responsibility, or even apologize or give reparations for that. [00:26:46] And now the Institute for Justice and Democracy in Haiti, which is run out of the U.S., now they're suing the UN for all these kids that have been left without any, you know, so all these UN soldiers raped all these young girls and other all these UN, they call them the UN babies. [00:27:05] Yeah, you know, so all these kids that were born because of this UN occupation and these soldiers leave and then you have these young girls with all these kids that have no fathers and no means of taking care of themselves. [00:27:15] Yeah, I mean, and this is this is a pretty common thing in areas where UN, the UN states are famously in the Congo where the UN mission is still there. [00:27:24] And so it is important to think about it. [00:27:26] But the other thing is they've been very violent. [00:27:28] So there are all kinds of pictures and videos of shootouts and saying rooting out gangs and one area where they shot like 27,000 bullets at this small little village. [00:27:42] So part of that we have to remember is just the brutality. [00:27:44] And that's what people remember. [00:27:46] And I just remember, for example, visiting my grandfather in a small town in the middle of Haiti back in like 2006 and sitting there at these little houses and then having these tanks drive through and like these soldiers sitting there with guns pointed at people who are not doing anything. [00:28:01] You know, it's not like we're at war or anything, but this is the terror of the occupation that people have lived with for 17 years. [00:28:08] Yeah, you keep referring it to it as an occupation. [00:28:11] And I do think that's really important because I think very few people in the United States would consider or would even think to say that we are and we have been occupying Haiti, right? [00:28:22] Like, but it's, I mean, you make this point repeatedly that, you know, Haiti, the Haitians are people with no sovereignty. [00:28:32] That's, you know, it's, they are an occupied nation and it's really the only way to think of U.S. intervention there over the past 20 years. [00:28:41] Yes. [00:28:41] And U.S. intervention has really changed, right? [00:28:43] Because the way that they, for example, would do Aristide, because the way they got rid of Aristide, I have an academic article that actually lays out this timeline and how it is that the soldiers landed and like, we have a plane. [00:28:55] You need to get in here right now. [00:28:56] We're taking you out. [00:28:57] So they used to do that. [00:28:59] But now they basically, they can fix elections, handpick and put people there, pay, you know, the so-called paramilitary guys who are going after Aristide. [00:29:10] You know, the guy, he's now in U.S. prison because now that they no longer have use for him. [00:29:15] Yeah, drug runner. [00:29:16] Yeah, but they were paying him $800 a month. [00:29:19] That's it. [00:29:19] You know, it's cheap to hire people who are poor, right? [00:29:23] Paying him $800 a month and giving him arms and training him in the DR, right? [00:29:27] And so, so, but the point is, there's a United Nations that took over in 2004, July 2004 after the coup d'état. [00:29:36] And with that came, in addition to the 14,000 people, soldiers, police, staff, came a group, the OAS organization, or representatives of the Organization of American States, and something they call the core group. [00:29:52] Can you explain the core group? [00:29:54] I would love to know what this core group is because it's an unelected group of foreign powers. [00:29:59] Yes. [00:30:00] You can look up whatever something's going on in Haiti, the core group releases a statement. [00:30:05] Yeah, I saw that. [00:30:06] There's like a series of statements. [00:30:07] Every sort of election or any, basically anything that happens in national politics there, the core group puts out a statement. [00:30:14] Right. [00:30:14] Which, of course, the Haitian public are waiting with bated breath for. [00:30:17] Exactly. [00:30:18] Right. [00:30:18] So the core group basically is a group that came together on their own. [00:30:22] And they, in all their, they're an overlap of representatives of many countries' embassies, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Spain, the European Union, the U.S., the United Nations, and the Organization of American States. [00:30:38] Real rogues gallery. [00:30:39] And if you see the pictures, the other thing is important because if you go on Twitter, you can find pictures of the core group meeting without Haitians, right? [00:30:45] And it's an all-white group with no Haitians, no black people in there. [00:30:50] And so it reminds me of like the Berlin conference when they got together and separated out Africa to Colorado. [00:30:56] And so the core group, so this core group, this unelected group has an inordinate amount of power and say in what goes on in Haiti. [00:31:07] But because they have representatives from the EU, from the OAS, from the UN, they work in tandem. [00:31:12] So I don't know if you notice, once people started protesting before February 7th, then the U.S. released a statement. [00:31:20] Then the OAS released a statement. [00:31:22] Then the core group released a statement, all saying the same thing that, you know, Moise will have elections and a constitutional mandate, which is he's trying to rewrite the constitution. [00:31:33] That's the other part, right? [00:31:34] Classic. [00:31:35] Right. [00:31:35] And so we will allow that. [00:31:37] We will follow the rule of law and allow that to happen. [00:31:40] And his term ends February 22nd, February 7th, 2022, which means that once they did that, Moise then felt bold enough to just stay in power and do whatever and say he's not leaving. [00:31:52] Well, because he's got the backing of the international community at this point. [00:31:55] International community, right? [00:31:57] Exactly. [00:31:57] And I mean, that really is a go-ahead, especially a statement from the United States, is you can kind of run wild with that. [00:32:04] And that has been like, you know, I think people have this dim or sort of, again, like I'm sure you know very well that Haiti is not very well reported on or not often reported on in the U.S. or a combination of both. [00:32:19] But America has had direct involvement in basically every Haitian presidential election for quite a long time, but like really specific and out in the open involvement. [00:32:29] I mean, for decades now at this point. [00:32:31] Right. [00:32:32] I mean, we talked about Aristide, like, I mean, like, an American back coup with apparently CIA officers on the scene took Aristide out. [00:32:42] And I wanted like a laugh at her. [00:32:44] Yeah. [00:32:45] Exactly. [00:32:45] And like, people might not be super familiar with him, but he is, as far as I know, Haiti's only like popular democratically elected. [00:32:52] Yes. [00:32:52] And they, and after his went, because they were shocked because their handpicked person, they did, he came from out of nowhere and won with 70% of the votes in the first social democratic politician. [00:33:04] Yes. [00:33:05] And he, you know, he wasn't even a politician. [00:33:08] He was a priest. [00:33:09] Yeah. [00:33:10] He was a priest who advocated liberation theology and had a lot of followers. [00:33:15] So he was the first, you know, democratically elect government, complete support by the majority of the people. [00:33:22] And if you know this, you can actually, you can even go now because even when he came back in 2012, if you see the response of the people, and I think democracy now has video. [00:33:33] You can just look up video reviews of Haiti. [00:33:36] And so the U.S. was taken aback because their favorite candidate did not win. [00:33:42] And so they said after Aristide, nothing. [00:33:44] They would never let that happen again. [00:33:46] Right. [00:33:46] But it's right after that. [00:33:48] So nine months within that first election, there's a coup d'état and he's taken out of office. [00:33:53] And then three years later, which is ironic, three years later, Clinton brings him back because they were afraid there were all these Haitians leaving Haiti because of the repression. [00:34:03] So then you don't want Haitians on boats coming into Florida and giving you trouble. [00:34:08] Right. [00:34:09] So then, so Clinton says, okay, we're going to get rid of the juntas that had taken over and replay, bring Aristide, as long as Aristide takes on these neoliberal IMF conditionalities that he didn't want to at first and so on. [00:34:26] But what they did say that he could not finish five terms. [00:34:30] He had to basically, the three years he was in exile counted as part of his five years, which is crazy considering what's going on. [00:34:36] It's like time served. [00:34:38] Exactly. [00:34:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:34:39] Time served. [00:34:40] He was only allowed to finish out the rest of the year. [00:34:43] It's insane. [00:34:44] Right. [00:34:44] So let's think about that compared to Moise. [00:34:47] And so it is important. [00:34:48] But I do want to go back to occupation quickly, Liz, because it is important. [00:34:53] It's an occupation. [00:34:54] So there's a military there and the UN at one point was like 15, 16, 17,000 people, soldiers, staff. [00:35:01] And the joke is if you go to Haiti, you'll see it's all white UN trucks and at 6 p.m. they all head up to Pechon V, which is where all the foreigners hang out in the fancy bars and the nice hotels and party, right? [00:35:14] And so you could always see that paid, right? [00:35:16] Paid vacations. [00:35:18] Right. [00:35:19] But so the UN has changed its name and its mandate. [00:35:23] So it's changed like three or four times. [00:35:24] And so they were saying that they were scaling back the mission. [00:35:26] So they've been scaling back the missions. [00:35:27] So the latest is they call them, it's called, let me see, it's called Binu B-I-N-U-H, which is the latest iteration of the UN, which is fewer, which is fewer military people. [00:35:41] But the office, Helen Lalim, who's the head of the mission, still has a say. [00:35:45] So they have a say in when elections are held, how they're held, who pays for them, you know, making demands, whether the president goes or stays. [00:35:57] So that's an effective occupation because what is sovereignty when you don't control your elections, you don't control your economic policy, you don't control your political process, what is sovereignty? [00:36:09] So we have to remember that. [00:36:11] And I do think Moise has never had a mandate. [00:36:14] You know, there are protests against the theft of the Petro Carib. [00:36:17] There's been non-ongoing protests. [00:36:19] There were protests all through 2018, all 2019. [00:36:24] And so it's an ongoing protest. [00:36:28] And this is the latest slap from the people. [00:36:31] And the difference with these protests is that back in the days, people would protest corruption of the Petro Carib, the theft of the Petro Carib funds. [00:36:39] But as you see, the younger people are now directly challenging the U.S., the core group, the OAS, and the UN and demanding no interference, which I think is actually a nice shift, you know. [00:36:50] Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:51] You mentioned really briefly, you mentioned the DR, the Dominican Republic. [00:37:09] And I'm wondering if we can, I want to highlight them for a second because also their relationship with Haiti is pretty unique historically. [00:37:17] And the U.S. has kind of used them for a lot of historical necessities, I guess. [00:37:24] I'm trying to think of a funny way of putting it, for their activities in Haiti. [00:37:29] And I mean, recently it's no different, no? [00:37:32] Yes, recently. [00:37:32] So, you know, it's a right-wing government. [00:37:35] I mean, you have to separate the Dominican elite from the Dominican people. [00:37:39] So, yeah, so part of it, the Dominican Republic has always played this terrible role. [00:37:45] And so there's a long-standing historical problem between the DR and Haiti only because when Haiti became independent, it took over the entire island, which the other part was owned by Spain, because it dismantled slavery. [00:38:03] And it said the only way it can stop slavery from continuing is to basically occupy the entire island. [00:38:08] And so it freed the Africans and so on. [00:38:12] What happened is with the help of France and the U.S., Spain, the Dominican elite were able to push back Haitians. [00:38:19] And so what the Dominican Republic celebrate as their Independence Day is independence from Haiti, which is fascinating in itself. === Border Raids and Deportations (06:57) === [00:38:26] Yeah, I didn't even know that yet. [00:38:28] But there's still like this anti-blackness in the Dominican Republic, right? [00:38:31] Famously so, yeah. [00:38:32] And so down to the 1937 massacre of Haitians, of 40,000 Haitians by people in the Dominican Republic, by the Trijo Rebecca. [00:38:42] At the border, right? [00:38:43] At the border on the Trujillo regime. [00:38:45] And mind you, these are poorest borders. [00:38:46] So people always go back. [00:38:48] You know, there are people, there are Haitians who have never been to Haiti who live in the DR. And in the 30s and 40s, there are a lot of Haitians who went there as Cain, you know, laborers and so on. [00:38:59] But the other thing that's not told is that the U.S. ICE and U.S. Border Patrol is contracted with the DR to provide so-called security. [00:39:10] But security is one way because the truth is Haiti is still one of the largest markets for Dominican goods, right? [00:39:17] Of course. [00:39:17] I mean, they're sharing an island together. [00:39:19] It's the only land border either of them have. [00:39:21] So they've been able, since the earthquake, really dump all their goods, right? [00:39:25] All these business people, the reconstruction was a boom for the Dominican elite. [00:39:30] And so there's that. [00:39:31] And they were also the place where they worked in tandem with George W. Bush to train the small group of military, paramilitaries that went into the country and terrorized the people right before the coup d'état. [00:39:46] Yeah, that was a big thing during that period. [00:39:49] There was exiled military figures essentially trained in the Dominican Republic, which is, by the way, the case for a lot of exiled military figures from a lot of different nations surrounding the Dominican Republic. [00:40:01] And then, you know, of course, put over on cross-border raids. [00:40:04] Same thing happens with like Venezuela and Colombia. [00:40:06] Exactly, exactly. [00:40:07] Same exact playbook. [00:40:09] And that's what was really like the Aristide's ousting really seemed to like, it seemed to sort of decimate the opposition in a certain way, like the pro-democracy opposition. [00:40:21] Because now, I mean, I'm not sure if Lavalas reconfigured itself as FOMI Lavalas now. [00:40:27] I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. [00:40:29] But as far as I know, they're still barred essentially from like participating in elections. [00:40:33] I don't know if legally they are, but you know, like the Elections Bureau, or I can't remember the exact name of it, will consistently say that they don't have enough support that they actually can't field candidates and stuff like that. [00:40:44] And so, like, what is the, you know, for the opposition, for the democratic sort of movement within Haiti, what is their like, do they have a vehicle or an organization, or is it like, is it, is it just, you know, people essentially like getting out on the streets because they don't really have any other recourse? [00:40:59] Right. [00:40:59] People are getting, you know, you know, Lavalas was really dealt a major blow by the ousting Aristide, but also by U.S. propaganda against Aristide and Lavalas, right, as corrupt and so on and so forth. [00:41:13] Human rights. [00:41:14] Human rights. [00:41:15] Talking about Aristide's human rights record. [00:41:17] I mean, for the longest time, they even tried. [00:41:20] I don't know how young you all are, but I still remember where they used to write in major news media that he was mentally unstable. [00:41:28] So they used to write all these articles saying that he was seeking, he was on medication, that he was not in his right mind, that he was crazy. [00:41:36] So they really created this, you know, this propaganda war against Aristide. [00:41:40] But also really the party, once he was in exile and there's so much repression, the party splintered. [00:41:46] Some of them said that they weren't strong enough. [00:41:51] They became too meek, especially when he came back. [00:41:54] Aristide stepped back and said, I don't necessarily want to be part of running again and so on and so forth. [00:42:02] So what you have is a splintering leftist group against this rapidly consolidating right-wing power and dictator in the making. [00:42:14] But you also have a lot of young people who have nothing to lose, right? [00:42:17] And this is exactly when you think it's the most, this is the lesson of the Haitian Revolution. [00:42:24] When you least expect it, right? [00:42:26] Expect it. [00:42:27] Because there's so many different things going on on the ground. [00:42:31] There's so many angry young people who have known nothing but occupation, right? [00:42:36] Yeah. [00:42:37] 18, 19-year-olds, 20-year-olds, and they've seen what the UN has done. [00:42:42] They've seen these politicians be groomed. [00:42:44] They've seen the U.S. support these politicians. [00:42:47] So, and I do think now that they're shifting towards their calls are for anti-imperialism more than anything. [00:42:57] I think my friends, my sources in Haiti say that they don't think Moise is going to last a year. [00:43:02] I think the U.S. might have to actually give in to the people because it's so relentless. [00:43:10] The pushback is so relentless from the people. [00:43:12] Yeah, I know. [00:43:15] It seems like these protests are gaining strength as they go on. [00:43:18] I know that February 7th apparently did not see a ton of people out on the street because they figured, oh, well, maybe you'll step down. [00:43:24] We'll see what happens. [00:43:25] And then every weekend since then, they've been gaining thousands and thousands. [00:43:29] And then there's a huge one happening on the 29th because that's when the Constitution under Aristide, after they got rid of Duvalier, that's when that constitution was ratified. [00:43:41] And so that's the biggest, and that one is going to be international. [00:43:45] So, you know, I don't think these people are, the truth is, these kids have nothing else to lose. [00:43:49] And, you know, the only way he can respond is through repression. [00:43:52] But I'm not sure that that will work the same way it has the past five years. [00:43:58] Yeah. [00:43:58] Yeah. [00:43:59] There's a really good Aristeed speech that I've read that talks about using the Constitution as a weapon, which I think would be applicable in this case. [00:44:08] Which is why they're trying to rewrite the Constitution. [00:44:10] But yeah, exactly. [00:44:12] I mean, that's what, I mean, they do what they serve as. [00:44:16] Exactly. [00:44:17] You know, I know we don't have you for much longer, so I just wanted to, you know, maybe bug you about a couple more things. [00:44:25] What do you see as the future? [00:44:26] Like, what are some possible future paths that you can lay out for us here? [00:44:30] Right. [00:44:30] Well, the most immediate one is the one that we've had before, which is the consolidation of a dictatorship through the help of the international community. [00:44:38] Right. [00:44:39] And as it stands, he has a personal security team, which he calls anti-terror. [00:44:46] Those are different than the U.S. mercenaries that were recently arrested, moving like Asia. [00:44:50] Yeah, no, those are not. [00:44:51] Those are like official 4,000-member security force that he's armed. [00:44:57] And that's being supported by the U.S. He's also, so Biden just gave $75 million to Haiti, you know, even as people did not get their stimulus or health care or student loan. [00:45:10] And that's the other thing people have to remember. [00:45:12] All this money going to regime change and regime maintenance means that Americans are not getting anything. [00:45:19] So let's just remember that because I think that's an important thing. === Haiti's Military Support (03:41) === [00:45:23] Well, and if you're a Haitian immigrant here, you also might be getting deported by Biden, too. [00:45:28] Well, that's right. [00:45:29] And Biden, there are more Haitians deported in the last two months under Biden than all of 2019 and 2020. [00:45:39] Yeah, his like cosmetic blip where he was like, oh, I'm not Trump. [00:45:42] I'm going to pause deportations, which, you know, didn't last very long, but also didn't include Haitians. [00:45:48] Right. [00:45:48] And the other thing is, you know, there are more kids in cages, right? [00:45:52] But, you know, and that's what Democrats get away with, right? [00:45:56] And part of it is, you know, Obama was deporter-in-chief. [00:46:00] Like, there's no way that George W. Bush would have gotten away with deporting as many people as Obama did. [00:46:06] But you mentioned the military in Africa. [00:46:08] I mean, that's all Obama. [00:46:10] Well, yeah. [00:46:10] And so I remember. [00:46:12] Or a lot of that, at least. [00:46:13] Yeah. [00:46:13] Well, yeah. [00:46:14] Look, I remember when AFRICOM was established. [00:46:17] This is 2008. [00:46:18] And, you know, I do my research work. [00:46:19] Yeah, it's a recent thing. [00:46:20] Yeah, I do my research work in West Africa in Ghana. [00:46:22] And I remember Kip Ward, the first head of AFRICOM, this African-American man, showing up in Ghana and meeting and, you know, being established by George W. Bush, we're going to have this Africa man. [00:46:33] And none of the African states wanted AFRICOM, which is why the AFRICOM base had to be in Germany. [00:46:40] It's still in Germany, right? [00:46:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:46:42] And then Obama comes and he is able to charm everyone. [00:46:46] And I always use this, you know, this saying that when the axe came into the forest, the trees looked at each other and said, the handle is one of us. [00:46:54] And that's how I think about Obama in Africa, right? [00:46:57] Because he's been able to, he was able to sweet talk AFRICOM. [00:47:01] And Africa was also, and the U.S. military itself has changed its tactics. [00:47:04] So now it uses humanitarianism. [00:47:06] So, you know, they're building, you know, they're digging for wells for water and so on and so forth. [00:47:11] But now Africa is in 53 in some capacity of the 54 countries on the continent. [00:47:16] Jesus. [00:47:17] They're everywhere. [00:47:18] And people don't even know about Africa until that soldier was killed in Mali a few years ago. [00:47:23] And then the phone call was, that was the big deal. [00:47:26] That was the big deal. [00:47:27] But it was AFRICOM that, you know, destroyed Libya, you know? [00:47:30] And so we have to, you know, that worked with NATO to destroy Libya. [00:47:35] And so now they're all over the continent. [00:47:37] I was at an academic conference in Senegal. [00:47:39] What was this? [00:47:40] It's about three or four years ago. [00:47:42] And the U.S. ambassador comes with this African representative. [00:47:46] This is an academic conference, right? [00:47:49] You know, on culture and stuff. [00:47:51] And AFRICOM has a representative there? [00:47:53] Yeah. [00:47:54] And then they announce, you know, the ambassador greets us. [00:47:57] You know, this is an international conference in Dakar. [00:47:59] And he greets us. [00:48:00] And then he's like, today we're having the largest military, joint military exercise. [00:48:05] You know, we have a thousand members from AFRICOM and, you know, 500 members from the Senegalese police. [00:48:11] And we're going to do these exercises. [00:48:13] And so we're happy that you're here, you know, because this shows, you know, cooperation and so on and so forth. [00:48:19] And so, you know, so they've come, the military has definitely infiltrated African continent. [00:48:24] And there's a new strategy, right? [00:48:26] Because the whole point is to have proxy wars instead of, you know, putting U.S., you know, no fit, no, it's like you think about Blackwater. [00:48:32] So you have contractors, you have proxies, you have other people doing your fighting for yourself. [00:48:37] Yeah, Colombian mercenaries in Yemen, that kind of stuff. [00:48:40] Exactly. [00:48:40] And Africa is really about, you know, stopping China. [00:48:44] And we know this, right? [00:48:45] Exactly. [00:48:46] It's just become the battlefield against China. [00:48:47] The battlefield. [00:48:48] So Africa becomes this field where the fight is going to be right against China and anyone else who, in Russia, to some extent. [00:48:56] Of course. [00:48:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:48:58] Well, thank you so much for joining us. [00:49:01] I mean, that was a fantastic sort of overview. === Battlefield Against China (04:28) === [00:49:05] And I hope I think our listeners probably get a lot of that. [00:49:07] My final question, though, is what should people do? [00:49:10] You know, we're talking about Haiti here. [00:49:12] What resources should people check out? [00:49:14] Or like, what should people do, essentially? [00:49:17] I know, obviously, there's not a lot to be done. [00:49:19] Maybe my recommendation is always join the military, become a general, and then do a left-wing general coup, which is, I think, the only thing that's happening. [00:49:29] When was the last time that happened? [00:49:31] Well, it hasn't happened in America necessarily, but Americans love the military. [00:49:35] So I'm like, oh, maybe it could work. [00:49:37] It might take many decades, though. [00:49:40] It's called the long con. [00:49:41] The long con, exactly. [00:49:44] But what resources should people check out? [00:49:47] What do you recommend? [00:49:48] Well, I do think, you know, of course, I'm part of the Black Alliance for Peace, right? [00:49:53] And so there's a lot of resources. [00:49:57] I have to, there's also another group with Margaret Flowers. [00:50:00] I don't know if you know her organization. [00:50:02] There's Cold Pink has a major Haiti team. [00:50:06] So the first thing is to educate yourself on AFRICOM and not AFRICOM, sorry, on Haiti and AFRICOM. [00:50:13] And we have a fact sheet on Black Alliance for Peace and what's going on in Haiti and resources that we update regularly from historical sources to contemporary sources. [00:50:20] So I think that's, you know, it's blackallianceforpeace.org. [00:50:24] So that's an important thing to do. [00:50:25] But the second thing is to challenge your representatives. [00:50:28] I think the U.S. should demand to ask why is it that the U.S. is spending so much money and energy arming the Haitian, the Haitian government, arming Haitian police, building prisons, because that's the first thing they built after the earthquake was prisons. [00:50:43] Right. [00:50:43] And so, so I, and why are they arming the police? [00:50:47] Why are they dropping military arm, you know, guns, tanks, and all of that stuff? [00:50:53] And I do think asking your local representatives why they are in Haiti and telling them that they need to get out is important. [00:51:02] And also asking about stopping the deportations of Haitians. [00:51:06] So I think there's a lot Americans can do to challenge their government. [00:51:10] It might seem like it's worth nothing, but it is important. [00:51:14] You send that letter, you send that email to your local representatives. [00:51:16] And if we get enough of those, people will actually have to have a conversation about what's going on. [00:51:22] But the first thing is to really understand the history of Haiti, understand that what you see in the media, the only time Haiti shows up is when there's violence, and know that that's a history of a long history of racism when it comes to that country. [00:51:37] And so just remember that and learn about Haiti and then go from there. [00:51:42] Well, thank you so much. [00:51:43] Really appreciate you joining us, Dr. Pierre. [00:51:45] And yeah, hope to talk to you again sometime. [00:51:47] All right. [00:51:47] Thank you. [00:51:48] Nice talking to you all. [00:51:49] Good to see you. [00:51:51] Take good care. [00:52:12] We should link to and say, or I just want to say that Dr. Pierre has several really good pieces up at the Black Agenda Report. [00:52:21] And I want to give those guys a shout out because I think some of them are listening or listening to the podcast. [00:52:27] They're also a great, fantastic resource for reading about news coming out of Haiti. [00:52:33] You know, people talking about political possibilities, left-wing possibilities, left-wing organizations in Haiti. [00:52:40] Um, and then they do great work, so I want to give those guys a shout out. [00:52:44] Yeah, and there was so much we couldn't even cover in this. [00:52:46] I mean, there's there's there's basically an epidemic of kidnappings related to the government as well in Haiti. [00:52:51] Uh, you know, people being kidnapped for the sum of like $10 million, but it's really just about uh splintering the Democratic opposition or arresting them, um, but extrajudicially. [00:53:02] The whole thing is just a fucked-up story. [00:53:04] You know, it's funny is because you hear all these people talk about like the UN occupation of America and all this stuff. [00:53:09] Like, Haiti is what like a UN occupation of a country in the Americas actually looks like, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. [00:53:17] Um, well, on that uh, that cheery note, um, my name is Brace, I'm Liz. [00:53:25] We are, of course, joined by our producer, Jung Chomsky, and this has been Turin on. [00:53:31] We'll see you next time. [00:53:33] Bye-bye.