True Anon Truth Feed - Episode 84: Zooming In On Maxwell
Aired: 2020-07-18
Duration: 01:09:15


=== Welcome to Fucking Truanon (05:10) ===

[00:00:16]  Ghelaine Maxwell is dead.
[00:00:19]  That's not true.
[00:00:20]  Fake news.
[00:00:20]  Tired of news.
[00:00:22]  No, actually, you know what?
[00:00:24]  Yeah, go ahead.
[00:00:25]  I'll say this.
[00:00:26]  Spoiler alert, because we are from the future.
[00:00:32]  We are recording this episode in early August, 2020.
[00:00:40]  No, no, I was saying my pithy little joke there.
[00:00:45]  Ghelaine Maxwell is dead.
[00:00:46]  And then Ellipsy's tired of being in prison because I made that same joke about Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:00:56]  But then he did die.
[00:00:57]  So I guess that wasn't cool to do.
[00:01:00]  You're the angel of death.
[00:01:02]  Yeah.
[00:01:03]  Well.
[00:01:03]  You spoke it out loud and it came true.
[00:01:07]  That's Jewish magic, baby.
[00:01:09]  That's cabbalism right there.
[00:01:11]  That's what they want to take from us.
[00:01:14]  Do you think she's okay?
[00:01:15]  So wait, I will say this.
[00:01:17]  Before, I mean, we got a lot to get into once we start this episode properly.
[00:01:23]  But I'm back on thinking that she's going to die.
[00:01:27]  Lay it out for me, honey.
[00:01:29]  I don't know.
[00:01:30]  I, you know, I was listening in on the hearing today, which again, we'll get into, and hearing them say, okay, the trial date is set for July 2021.
[00:01:46]  Yes.
[00:01:46]  I was like, there's no fucking way.
[00:01:48]  There's no fucking dad.
[00:01:49]  That does seem like a long fucking time.
[00:01:53]  I don't even know what that means.
[00:01:55]  Well, I've been putting, we'll get to this, not to say this for the third time in an intro.
[00:01:59]  We're going to talk about this a little bit more later, too.
[00:02:02]  But I'm more towards thinking she's going to get COVID.
[00:02:08]  Well, like real gonna get COVID or like, she's gonna get it?
[00:02:11]  It wouldn't be hard to really give someone COVID.
[00:02:14]  No, but you know what I mean.
[00:02:16]  Like, do you really think like someone's gonna go in there and be like, like on purpose?
[00:02:22]  Or do you think it's more like, oops, she got COVID?
[00:02:26]  Or do you think it's like, she got COVID?
[00:02:33]  Well, I was really disturbed to hear reports that, you know, her lawyer was complaining earlier today that she was locked in a cell alone.
[00:02:42]  And immediately after the bail hearing, reports came out that she actually has a new roommate.
[00:02:49]  Who?
[00:02:51]  Nicholas Tartaglione.
[00:03:18]  Welcome to fucking Truanon, baby.
[00:03:21]  The only and number one non-pedophile podcast in the entire world.
[00:03:27]  You know what?
[00:03:28]  We have not said that in a long time.
[00:03:31]  And I got to say, you know, it's very cute that you just went bam right into it because I was here thinking, man, it feels like we're back.
[00:03:40]  We're back to the back to the old me.
[00:03:43]  You know, the meme.
[00:03:44]  Oh, yeah.
[00:03:45]  We're going back to the old me.
[00:03:47]  This is like pure Epstein, Pure Ghillain, you, me, Young Chomsky, the old crew back together.
[00:03:56]  We're going back through it.
[00:03:58]  It's, yeah.
[00:03:58]  I mean, to think like a week ago, I was neck deep in reading about Miguel Serrano trying to summon Wotan to defeat Kali Yuga or to really be the hero or whatever of Kali Yuga.
[00:04:15]  And now I finally get to think about a woman with probably the worst haircut in the continental United States.
[00:04:21]  I was like kind of half listening to you when you said that and then misinterpreted Wotan as Wojack and got very confused.
[00:04:28]  Confused.
[00:04:29]  Yes.
[00:04:29]  Well, it's Adolf Hitler is the avatar of Wojack according to you.
[00:04:34]  We already introduced it, but I will say again, welcome to Truanon.
[00:04:38]  My name is, of course, Liz.
[00:04:41]  My name, of course, is Wotan.
[00:04:43]  And we are joined by producer Young Chomsky.
[00:04:46]  And like we said, we got a classico Truanon up for you because Miss Ghillane Maxwell arrested in the clink, awaiting trial.
[00:05:03]  Guess what?
[00:05:04]  The hearing for her bail hearing was today.
[00:05:07]  And your favorite non-pedophile podcasters were listening in.
[00:05:15]  Yeah, I got to say, so it was scheduled at 10 a.m. Pacific time, 1 p.m. Eastern.
[00:05:23]  And turns out I, you know, I don't sleep.

=== Solitary Confinement Rumors (11:18) ===

[00:05:27]  Yeah.
[00:05:28]  Around 4 a.m. last night, I was taking some sleeping pills.
[00:05:31]  I was like, I wonder if this will work.
[00:05:33]  And then I woke up at 9.50, terrified in a cold sweat to a text message from Liz that was from like an hour before saying, I'm in, baby.
[00:05:43]  Yeah.
[00:05:45]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:05:46]  I got up not early, but got up and got on the call, made it real quick.
[00:05:54]  There was like, I think it was like 257 people, I think, when I got in.
[00:06:00]  So not a lot of people tuning in.
[00:06:02]  But yeah, we made it.
[00:06:04]  We listened.
[00:06:05]  We came.
[00:06:06]  We saw she's still alive.
[00:06:09]  She is still alive.
[00:06:10]  Yes.
[00:06:13]  And we have, I want to say before we really get started here, there have been a lot of people being like, where are pictures of Ghillaine?
[00:06:19]  Where are pictures of Ghillaine?
[00:06:20]  I think thinking that either she's dead or they didn't really arrest her.
[00:06:23]  But today, finally, actually, this already happened.
[00:06:27]  But today, again, people were able to get eyewitness accounts of Miss Maxwell.
[00:06:34]  In the flesh.
[00:06:35]  In the flesh.
[00:06:36]  Well, on the deal flesh.
[00:06:37]  Yeah, Zoom.
[00:06:38]  Could be deep fake.
[00:06:40]  Yes, yes.
[00:06:41]  She did say long live the new flesh as her defense instead of guilty or not guilty.
[00:06:46]  But we received rather some pretty damning descriptions of her appearance.
[00:06:56]  Yeah, oof.
[00:06:57]  Yeah.
[00:06:58]  I got to say there's now a courtroom sketch.
[00:07:01]  Yes.
[00:07:02]  Dear God.
[00:07:03]  Not great.
[00:07:05]  Okay.
[00:07:06]  Okay.
[00:07:06]  Let me pause for a second because a couple questions here.
[00:07:10]  Is because there's okay, over the last couple years, there's been plenty of controversies over courtroom sketch artists.
[00:07:20]  Yes.
[00:07:21]  Why do they make people look like this?
[00:07:25]  Is this a joke?
[00:07:27]  Is this a real job?
[00:07:29]  Why did they make my nose two times bigger and me hunched over and rubbing my hands together with a beard?
[00:07:34]  I don't even have a beard.
[00:07:35]  That's what I'm saying.
[00:07:36]  So here's my question.
[00:07:40]  Is this a real job?
[00:07:42]  What are they doing?
[00:07:44]  Are they real sketch artists?
[00:07:45]  Because I don't, I mean, this sketch of Ghillane, I don't even know what to say about it.
[00:07:51]  The woman does not look well.
[00:07:55]  Well, you remember that painting of Jesus Christ in Spain that the old but kind-hearted woman took to restoring in sort of an amateur way.
[00:08:08]  Yes.
[00:08:09]  It was kind of like if that was like on one end of the extreme and then the perfect picture of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, is on the other end.
[00:08:19]  That was kind of like three quarters of the way towards the old lady sketch.
[00:08:22]  Absolutely.
[00:08:23]  Yeah, Ghillane looks like she tried to self-tan with fresco.
[00:08:26]  Yes, yeah.
[00:08:27]  Her eyes are looking strange.
[00:08:28]  Her haircut is not nearly as bad as it should be.
[00:08:32]  I will say, Liz, if you'll allow me this indulgence, I am going to read a brief description from a friend of the pod, Bill.
[00:08:40]  I won't include the last name because he probably doesn't want me to.
[00:08:44]  She looks like she just had a hell of a layover on her way back from St. James and decided to spend six hours in the sauna before showing up to court.
[00:08:53]  This is from somebody who was there and actually got to see her.
[00:08:57]  She actually popped in the screen like 10 minutes in before all the journalists were talking.
[00:09:00]  Everyone was like, holy shit, is that her?
[00:09:02]  Because she looks rough.
[00:09:04]  She was put together, but has long shoulder-length hair, pulled into a bun, looking very dirty in just a t-shirt, not even the jumpsuit or jacket.
[00:09:12]  And she was very put together and formal until the judge's closing statement, which she realized she wasn't going to get it.
[00:09:18]  And then she started tearing up and grabbing the table next to her and looking down.
[00:09:24]  Okay, wait, a couple of things I want to just, my little spidey sense, lady spidey sense tingled.
[00:09:32]  Her hair's grown out.
[00:09:34]  Yes.
[00:09:35]  Now, question.
[00:09:37]  Is she going through something?
[00:09:39]  Is this COVID related?
[00:09:40]  No one can get a haircut.
[00:09:43]  Because Ghillane has a very, you know, I mean, this is iconic look for her.
[00:09:48]  It certainly is an iconic.
[00:09:50]  Yeah, iconic's not necessarily possible.
[00:09:52]  Her vibes.
[00:09:52]  Like kind of bizarre, pixie, Kate plus eight vibes.
[00:09:57]  Yes.
[00:09:58]  But if she's going full shoulder length, very interested.
[00:10:01]  Now, to grow that to shoulder length, what is that?
[00:10:03]  Like, that's a good eight, nine months of hair growth.
[00:10:08]  Well, I mean, that, we can talk about that in a little more when we get to some of her hiding details.
[00:10:14]  But yeah, I am, I am, well, I'd be surprised if she doesn't end up with bangs amidst all this.
[00:10:20]  Oh, well, she is in crisis.
[00:10:23]  This is, this is girls cast.
[00:10:26]  Okay, okay, okay.
[00:10:27]  Let's get into it.
[00:10:28]  I know, because we could just gab for ages, and we will for the next, let's say, 45 minutes.
[00:10:34]  Yes.
[00:10:35]  So where do we start?
[00:10:36]  Well, first, let's start with one of the rumors.
[00:10:38]  Yeah, okay, so what's been really fun, before we get into what happened today in the court proceedings, and there's a lot to get into there, there's just been, I mean, look, longtime listeners of Turinon know I love the tabloids more than anything.
[00:10:55]  And my God, these people are out there doing God's work.
[00:11:00]  There are just some incredible stories in the past week in between Ghillane's arrest and her now court appearance.
[00:11:07]  Some incredible stories in the press that we got to talk about, including, okay, here's one from the New York Post, that she is reportedly being moved from cell to cell to avoid, and this is their words, assassins.
[00:11:24]  That seems to me to be unlikely, Liz.
[00:11:27]  First of all, if you're an assassin, it doesn't really matter what cell they're in, right?
[00:11:32]  Like, if you can get in the jail to kill somebody, like, it's not like you'll get tricked by which cell she's in.
[00:11:37]  You'll just won't do it and do it later.
[00:11:40]  Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really make sense.
[00:11:41]  But they note that they are having her sleep.
[00:11:47]  This is in the MDC.
[00:11:48]  So she's not in the same prison that Jeffrey was in, but the MDC, which is in Brooklyn.
[00:11:53]  She's a lady, so she's got to go to Brooklyn.
[00:11:58]  They're having her sleep on a bear mattress, again, in Brooklyn, bear mattress, paper clothes, because they're trying to mitigate, you know, no Jeffrey Epstein style cheat hanged woman situation.
[00:12:19]  But they say, so they say they're taking all these precautions, but still they're very, very cautious that all these assassins could be out in the prison looking for her.
[00:12:30]  So former warden Cameron Lindsay previously told the Post that the risks for a high-profile inmate like Maxwell are real.
[00:12:37]  Quote, to take someone out like that, that would be a badge of honor in the subculture of prisons.
[00:12:45]  One thing I found that was pretty appalling too is that apparently she does get work release to go to her job at Beacon's Closet.
[00:12:53]  Yes.
[00:12:54]  So I do not think that they are moving her from cell to cell to avoid assassins, but she is, I think, at a high risk in MDC.
[00:13:04]  And I say this for a few reasons.
[00:13:06]  So back in June, inmates at the MDC actually filed an injunction or had their lawyers rather file an injunction against jail officials because they said that the coronavirus concerns were not being taken seriously, that nobody could see a doctor, that sick notes were shredded up.
[00:13:22]  The judge, of course, denied this request.
[00:13:26]  And they filed the injunction to get better conditions, specifically pertaining to medical care.
[00:13:31]  The judge said no, but it was also discovered that jail officials had been shredding records that were pertinent to the case, which, you know, listen, I am not a jail inspector, but that seems like a bad sort of precedent to set.
[00:13:51]  Yeah, she is being kept, according to her lawyers, in basically not solid.
[00:13:57]  I don't know if it's solitary confinement necessarily.
[00:14:00]  They said that.
[00:14:00]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:14:01]  Yeah, but like that also could just be her lawyers being like, I mean, I guess if you don't have a roommate.
[00:14:06]  Well, it's unclear if it's solitary confinement basically because of who she is or because of the 14-day requirement because of coronavirus.
[00:14:15]  Yes, that would make sense.
[00:14:17]  Yeah, so like there's reports that she is in solitary because of corona, but also then she might be put in solitary because of Gilling, basically.
[00:14:27]  But if you thought that would maybe increase her chances of surviving, then you should probably know that at the MDC, just this year, in the past few months, since COVID, literally all this happened in the past two months, two inmates have been killed at the jail.
[00:14:42]  One of them, a guy named Jamal Floyd, pepper sprayed to death by guards.
[00:14:48]  Jesus Christ.
[00:14:49]  I don't even know.
[00:14:51]  Like.
[00:14:52]  That's a lot of pepper spray.
[00:14:54]  It's a lot of fucking pepper spray.
[00:14:55]  And that is, I mean, you can kind of picture what that kind of scene was.
[00:14:59]  It was in his cell.
[00:15:01]  Another was a guy named Kenneth Hook.
[00:15:03]  I don't really know how to pronounce it.
[00:15:04]  H-O-U-C-K, which actually happened back in May, but came to light on June 10th.
[00:15:11]  Hooke was a pedophile.
[00:15:14]  This is from an article about him.
[00:15:16]  Hooke traded child pornography in online communities.
[00:15:19]  Investigators said he also held child pornography parties at his home in Philadelphia.
[00:15:23]  Prosecutors wrote in court papers that Hook and other sex offenders would meet in person to view child pornography, discuss molestation, and take drugs.
[00:15:30]  So not entirely like different than Ghillain necessarily, just in a less refined sort of way.
[00:15:38]  Obviously, you don't want to be a pedophile in prison because people will kill you.
[00:15:45]  And you're often, I'm actually sort of surprised that Kenneth wasn't put into protective custody, but maybe he was and somehow they got around to killing him.
[00:15:51]  But the fact that there's been very hazy details on the circumstances of this guy's death probably does not bode well for Ghillain and her protection, right?
[00:16:03]  Yeah.
[00:16:03]  No, I mean, I mean, unless the jail does something and her lawyers ask for something, it doesn't sound, doesn't sound like a good situation.
[00:16:14]  No.
[00:16:15]  And, you know, just further, there is high risk of getting coronavirus in this facility.
[00:16:20]  Like, absolutely.
[00:16:22]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:22]  And we'll get into that in a little bit when we go through kind of the particulars of how her lawyers were arguing some things today in court.
[00:16:31]  But yeah, no, it should be said that that it's actually legitimately a big risk and that, you know, COVID cases and deaths are spiking in prison populations.
[00:16:44]  It's like massive.
[00:16:45]  Yeah.

=== High Risk Coronavirus Situations (09:29) ===

[00:16:46]  And, you know, for a reason.
[00:16:47]  It's not just because, I mean, you know, to get a little like, okay, pause on Ghillene for a second.
[00:16:53]  It's not just because of close quarters.
[00:16:56]  It's also because lack of care, lack of any kind of real medical system, medical care, attention, you know, I mean, just absolute abject conditions that people are housed in and just the horrific state of incarcerated populations.
[00:17:22]  Yeah.
[00:17:22]  And MDC, like prior to this, also just has in general a really bad reputation.
[00:17:27]  I think even a worse reputation than MCC.
[00:17:30]  So that is, and of course, like, you know, these latest concerns about medical care there, I mean, you can kind of start putting two and two together, and it is not a promising sign.
[00:17:42]  No.
[00:18:10]  So what else have we got here?
[00:18:11]  Well, we should say there was an interesting little gossip thing in the, again, in the post, my paper of record, where, I mean, this is like a, okay, so the ref, basically a friend, a former friend of Ghillan, allegedly.
[00:18:31]  Alleged by him, too.
[00:18:33]  Yeah.
[00:18:34]  Who goes by a pseudonym.
[00:18:36]  Okay.
[00:18:37]  So I'd like to, maybe we can, we can, you know, kind of think about who this might be.
[00:18:41]  But a pseudonym William Steele.
[00:18:46]  Classic name.
[00:18:47]  Men with a pseudonym always go with Steele.
[00:18:50]  That's always the last name.
[00:18:52]  I got to say, William Steele is like classic 90s male porn star name.
[00:18:56]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:57]  It's good.
[00:18:58]  I like it.
[00:19:00]  Okay, so William Steele is alleging that Ghillane would boast that she had lots of videos and films of powerful figures, including two high-profile U.S. politicians, having sex with underage girls.
[00:19:22]  You know, it goes on Steele, who claims he once swiped computer discs from the couple, meaning Ghillane and Jeffrey, sent the discs.
[00:19:31]  Yeah, I know, computer, CD-ROMs.
[00:19:33]  You got mail.
[00:19:34]  Maybe it was Blu-ray.
[00:19:35]  I don't know.
[00:19:37]  But he said he wouldn't reveal the identities of who he saw, but they were doing everything and anything in bed.
[00:19:46]  He also, yeah, he says that he had sex.
[00:19:49]  No, that's in the anything, everything and anything in bed is in reference to him admitting freely of his own volition that he had sex with Ghillain Maxwell.
[00:20:01]  Which that, like, I am getting vibes from this one that this is bullshit.
[00:20:07]  I mean, he said, yeah, I was forced to watch their videos because they were trying to impress me.
[00:20:13]  I don't know.
[00:20:13]  He's reformed jewel thief seems like such a romantic like.
[00:20:18]  Sorry, pause for a second.
[00:20:19]  We didn't mention this yet.
[00:20:21]  He says he's a reformed jewel thief.
[00:20:24]  Which, by the way, I've been looking for my jewel.
[00:20:27]  No.
[00:20:27]  So let me tell you, this guy gets around.
[00:20:33]  I don't know.
[00:20:33]  I'm getting bullshit from this because he's also saying that like he said he sent the CDs to the authorities, which sounds to me totally like a lie.
[00:20:43]  Right.
[00:20:43]  Like it's like.
[00:20:45]  No, I mean, it definitely sounds.
[00:20:48]  He say who it was.
[00:20:50]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:50]  It definitely sounds like someone who is both, one, trying to capitalize on their like former acquaintance and saying, oh, I think I saw.
[00:20:59]  But I would not be surprised if he actually did see videos or did hear Ghillain say like, oh, we've got videos of a bunch of people having sex with allegedly Alender Schwitz or whatever.
[00:21:13]  And him just, you know, spicing it up for the Tabloids.
[00:21:19]  Yeah, that's the vibe I get from this.
[00:21:21]  I mean, especially in the last month or so, there have been a lot of really wild stories about Ghillain.
[00:21:27]  Very few of them have turned out to be, let's say, in the realm of reality.
[00:21:33]  Yeah.
[00:21:33]  It's also my new Prague album.
[00:21:38]  And yeah, so, I mean, Billy Steele, if you're out there, give me back my mango pods.
[00:21:47]  I do like this one last thing that he said, though.
[00:21:50]  And this little, well, we'll get into this now that we're going to talk about the trial.
[00:21:55]  She told me about her Polanski plan where she would flee to France because they couldn't extradite her.
[00:22:05]  Jesus Christ.
[00:22:07]  That is, I mean.
[00:22:09]  I really hope she called it that.
[00:22:11]  If, I don't.
[00:22:12]  I could see her calling it that.
[00:22:14]  That's extremely based.
[00:22:16]  Rings like okay to me.
[00:22:17]  But I also don't think this guy talked to her in the past like year or whatever.
[00:22:22]  It doesn't seem like she had much contact with the outside.
[00:22:24]  Yeah.
[00:22:25]  I don't know.
[00:22:26]  I like to choose to believe it.
[00:22:28]  Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's, I would like it to be true.
[00:22:32]  Well, I mean, of course, I would like it to not be true, but it is true that they did all these horrible crimes.
[00:22:37]  would like for this guy to have done that, but we'll see.
[00:23:04]  Okay.
[00:23:05]  So main event.
[00:23:06]  Like we said, Brace and I were on the call today.
[00:23:09]  We listened in live from the southern district of New York to a you know, anticlimactic in this way zoom court session yeah uh, where Ghillane Maxwell we had the United States Versus Ghillane Maxwell bail hearing.
[00:23:31]  It's so crazy to just say that out loud.
[00:23:33]  By the way, it's like I do want to like think for a second like this is pretty wild that this is happening.
[00:23:40]  Like I will say uh, I I was hoping this day might come, but I, I wasn't really counting on it.
[00:23:48]  And now that it is actually happening I mean just this morning, I was sitting here listening to the call and was just like astounded, like I can't believe i'm we heard her voice yeah, in jet.
[00:23:58]  That like freaked me out.
[00:23:59]  That yeah, it was totally surreal because there's this person.
[00:24:02]  I've spent a lot of my time like a lot more than I think listeners would think yeah, thinking about and reading about, and to hear her yeah plea, was just astounding.
[00:24:14]  Yeah, I got a.
[00:24:15]  I will say, when I heard her say so spoiler alert she pleads not guilty.
[00:24:22]  Uh, when I heard her say uh, I plead not guilty, or whatever she says, got a little, got some chills, I did too.
[00:24:30]  Yeah yeah yeah, and i'm, you know, i'm gonna say something that I think is gonna be a bit controversial and people, i'm sure, are gonna call me a contrarian and call me names, but I gotta, you know, I gotta put this out there.
[00:24:47]  Kind of a sexy voice, I didn't.
[00:24:49]  I I a little husky, a little husky, too husky for you.
[00:24:53]  I thought she would be more shrill just due to her class position in England okay sure, but I will say I found it to be a very calm like.
[00:25:02]  There was like an eerie calm sexiness to the voice.
[00:25:06]  There's a very it was like a very powerful yin energy.
[00:25:11]  A deep well of feminine darkness was being kind of ignored.
[00:25:17]  This is the drag, or she's chaos.
[00:25:20]  She is chaos.
[00:25:22]  Yes um yeah, she did plead not guilty uh, but this was a bail hearing right, and so this was to determine whether Ghillain Maxwell would uh be allowed to for those of you who don't know what bail is would be allowed to basically spend the time of her trial outside under certain conditions, and so the way that this Is there's it's, it's like kind of any court happening where there's, where there's two sides, the defendant and the prosecution.
[00:25:49]  They both put up reasons that for the prosecution, she should not, she should be denied bail, and for the defendant's team, of course, that she should be granted bail.
[00:25:58]  Right.
[00:25:58]  Um, and I gotta say, it was it went differently than I thought, but but I think we should maybe back up a little and talk about for a sec how this came to be because in the courts or rather in the prosecution's uh sort of write-up.

=== Foil vs. Faraday Cage (14:59) ===

[00:26:15]  So, what they both did is they both wrote memorandums, uh, essentially laid out their arguments before the bail hearing today.
[00:26:21]  They were basically the same as what happened in court.
[00:26:24]  Uh, I've read them both, and I thought something really interesting about what the prosecution said is that, uh, is that when the FBI showed up to her New Hampshire home, they like they had to get through a lock gate, they stacked up on the door like SWAT team style, they saw her through a window run to a different room, which is that this side, the thought of that picture, like this pathetic woman,
[00:26:52]  like fleeing from the FBI, like into the other room.
[00:26:56]  I part of me does think that maybe she was getting rid of something or like, you know, it was time to get away from it.
[00:27:01]  Like a banshee.
[00:27:02]  Yes.
[00:27:04]  They, they, they get in there, they find her private security guard, which more on him later, uh, and arrest her and found a cell phone wrapped in tin foil on top of a desk.
[00:27:19]  Yeah, so, okay, a couple things.
[00:27:22]  I want to just shade this a little bit.
[00:27:24]  It was also mentioned that she was in her pajamas when they broke in, not broke in, but when they when the FBI entered the house.
[00:27:34]  Just want to like add that to the image here because in my mind, and this is completely, I understand that this would be completely incorrect, but in my head, she is wearing like fleece tigger pajama pants with like fuzzy Miss Piggy slippers.
[00:27:58]  Yes.
[00:28:00]  And like an oversized novelty sweatshirt with Garfield on it or whatever.
[00:28:09]  And she's like kind of shuffling into the next room.
[00:28:13]  I can't imagine she's very limber.
[00:28:16]  Yeah.
[00:28:16]  She's kind of just like.
[00:28:18]  And, well, like a bunch of her electronics that they see on top of a like, let's say 1965 kind of wooden box television covered in aluminum foil.
[00:28:32]  That's the image I have in my brain.
[00:28:35]  So I thought it was really extraordinary that she actually used aluminum foil.
[00:28:40]  So the reason which the defense lays out that she did that is because it was an approximation of what's called a Faraday case or a Faraday cage.
[00:28:50]  People call them different things.
[00:28:51]  What a Faraday cage is, and I have a lot of them, is they're, I don't know what they're lined with.
[00:28:56]  I don't care enough to know.
[00:28:57]  I just know that they work to some degree, although not for whatever her purposes were.
[00:29:03]  You put your phone in it, you shut the cage.
[00:29:05]  They're like eight bucks on Amazon and no signal gets in or out.
[00:29:09]  So like you can literally take your cell phone, put it in a slim little case.
[00:29:12]  I carry one of my backpack with me, or I carry a few of my backpack with me, and you, nothing gets in or out.
[00:29:18]  And presumably, too, that means someone can't listen in.
[00:29:20]  Although if you are afraid of that, you put it in the cage and then put it in a different room.
[00:29:26]  So like in the past, people would put them like in refrigerators.
[00:29:31]  Yeah, the fridge is a big one.
[00:29:33]  Sometimes people do both, put them in their case and in the fridge.
[00:29:37]  Every time I've done it, you just put it in a different room.
[00:29:39]  I will say, I have never heard of aluminum foil being.
[00:29:43]  Well, that's actually the reason I think that like for the tinfoil hat kind of thing is because they do block some waves.
[00:29:51]  I don't really know if that, from what I gather, it's not that effective.
[00:29:55]  And from what I was a little weirded out by it too, because, you know, as the defense admits, you know, her sort of servant bodyguard was shopping for her.
[00:30:07]  I don't know why he wouldn't pick up something that's more effective.
[00:30:09]  I have a feeling this is something he came up with.
[00:30:12]  Well, the interesting thing too is that the Faraday case, or if that's what they're trying to approximate with the aluminum foil, is that what you're talking about is blocking calls or someone listening in.
[00:30:23]  Yes.
[00:30:24]  Right.
[00:30:24]  So it would be for conversations you were having in the home.
[00:30:29]  And that a cell phone, of course, I mean, I hope, you know, our listeners know this, but that cell phones and most electronic devices that are hooked up to a network can just be readily accessed by the government as kind of like local satellites and record whatever conversations you're having.
[00:30:49]  Which, by the way, they do that.
[00:30:51]  And by the way, if you didn't know that, you should read more into that because that's a thousand percent true.
[00:30:58]  But so my thing is, okay, was she having, what were the conversations she was worried about getting picked up?
[00:31:07]  That's one possibility.
[00:31:08]  Or two, what the defense alludes to is that she was receiving threats about hacking her iCloud.
[00:31:17]  Yes.
[00:31:17]  Which I have to tell, I mean, look, I get it.
[00:31:20]  The boomers, she's kind of like boomer posting IRL, but like tinfoil is not going to stop hackers from getting to your iCloud account because the iCloud account isn't a physical thing.
[00:31:32]  Yeah.
[00:31:33]  It's not like a part of your phone.
[00:31:35]  It's famously in the cloud.
[00:31:38]  That's what the I stands for, in cloud.
[00:31:40]  And this is what happens, you know, Ghillain not having kids.
[00:31:44]  She doesn't have someone to explain this to her.
[00:31:46]  And I understand that struggle.
[00:31:48]  That must be difficult for her.
[00:31:50]  Yeah, I will say, so like her lawyer said that it was from people trying to hack in and that she has evidence related to her civil litigation.
[00:31:58]  You know, she's been sued by several of Epstein's victims.
[00:32:02]  And that she put the cell, the tinfo around the cell phone so that, yeah, like you were saying, no one could hack into it.
[00:32:10]  And that she wasn't trying to prevent anyone from the government from, of course, listening to her or anything.
[00:32:16]  It was solely to prevent people from destroying evidence.
[00:32:19]  And the prosecution, or excuse me, the defendant representation says that she should actually be lauded for doing this, for preserving this evidence from malicious people who are not.
[00:32:31]  Which, by the way, that feels a little bit incriminating.
[00:32:34]  Yes, yeah, yeah.
[00:32:36]  I'm like, well, I thought there was no, what's there to be evidence of?
[00:32:38]  Right, right, right.
[00:32:40]  The curious thing about that, though, is why is it on top of a desk then?
[00:32:43]  Is she just like, all right, well, can't let this thing out of my sight?
[00:32:47]  Again, in my like warped cartoon version of the sequence of events here, it's like a flip phone too.
[00:32:54]  It's like not even an iPhone.
[00:32:55]  Absolutely.
[00:32:55]  It's like Blackberry.
[00:32:56]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:32:57]  It's just like a, it's like a, not even a Moto Razor.
[00:33:00]  It's like some terrible, like, like really bulky one, you know?
[00:33:06]  And like the whole thing is, is covered in tinfoil like a baked potato.
[00:33:11]  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:13]  And she just like has it.
[00:33:14]  I am imagining there's, oh, it's the only thing on the desk just on a corner.
[00:33:19]  I mean, I feel like if I had a cell phone that I had incriminating things on, which is almost assuredly the case here, I would bury that cell phone somewhere on my 156 acre property of my remote hand.
[00:33:34]  I would not leave it on, put it in the desk, lady.
[00:33:38]  Like anywhere besides in plain view on the desk.
[00:33:42]  Yeah, not very smart.
[00:33:44]  No, and that's actually something that struck me about basically all of this is that you tend to think, and I know we've made this point before, but you tend to think of these people as like being smart, or at least smarter than you.
[00:33:57]  But Ghelane did several things here that make me think she's a fucking idiot.
[00:34:03]  Like what?
[00:34:04]  Well, so something else that we learned from the prosecution's sort of write-up and what they said today is that Ghelane Maxwell, of course, we know that she paid for this million-dollar house in New Hampshire in cash, or at least by a wire transfer.
[00:34:22]  And so what she said during sort of her pre-trial interviews, she said that she had no idea who owned the house and that it was by an LLC she couldn't remember the name of, and that she was simply being allowed to stay on the property.
[00:34:38]  Now, the FBI had, just this morning, before the fucking trial, this morning, tracked down the realtor who was like, oh, I actually think the realtor even might have reached out to them who said, oh yeah, that lady came by with another guy.
[00:34:53]  And she said her name was, no, they first say Jen Marshall and then they later say Jane Marshall.
[00:34:59]  And she said she was a British journalist, which is bumps.
[00:35:06]  Okay, we need to pause here for a second because you know how much I love letting our listeners in.
[00:35:14]  Breaking the fourth wall behind the veil, however we want to call it.
[00:35:18]  So Brace and I are on speaker together, listening in on this call, but he's, you know, he's, he's got his phone over there, but we're also like texting off of the computer because we like to talk to each other on multiple channels.
[00:35:33]  Immediately when that line drops, Brace texts me, a fucking journalist?
[00:35:40]  Are you kidding me?
[00:35:42]  Amazing.
[00:35:43]  I'm thrilled by this.
[00:35:46]  It was only natural.
[00:35:47]  Of course.
[00:35:48]  And, you know, she would not be the first Israeli spy to work for The Guardian either.
[00:35:52]  No, of course not.
[00:35:53]  I mean, that's, you know, that's where, you know.
[00:35:55]  Exactly.
[00:35:56]  Not even the first Israeli spy connected to a sex criminal, as in the case of Weinstein and Black Cube's Man of the Guardian.
[00:36:03]  So she was with a British guy who said that he was a retired officer from the British military who was writing a book.
[00:36:10]  And Ghelane, of course, presented herself as Jane, said that she was looking for privacy.
[00:36:18]  They sent a wire, I think, the next day after touring it and immediately moved in.
[00:36:23]  Ghelane did not leave the property until she was dragged out kicking and screamed by a crack team of X-Files officers.
[00:36:33]  In her Winnie the Pooh, Terry Cloth, polyester robe.
[00:36:38]  So I thought that was, that's kind of what I'm talking about here is that, and this happens several times today, is that the defense will be like, well, this is the case with this, like she's not a risk or that she doesn't have that much money or like whatever.
[00:36:53]  And then the prosecution will say, well, she told us during the pre-trial interview something that is immediately proven to be a lie.
[00:37:01]  And so that's why I'm like, her lawyers probably are very clever and clearly are very clever.
[00:37:09]  But Ghelane herself does not seem to be, or at least not canny when it comes to this stuff.
[00:37:13]  Well, this is very, yeah, this is like a very weird contradiction because when we were, I will say that like, you're absolutely correct that like every time the defense would bring up these things, the prosecution would say, no, that's literally the exact opposite of what she did literally yesterday.
[00:37:34]  Yes.
[00:37:34]  And they had this for multiple things.
[00:37:39]  But one thing I will say is that her defense team on the call sounds incredibly confident.
[00:37:47]  Yes.
[00:37:48]  And this is, you know, this is a team.
[00:37:51]  Her lawyer, Mark Cohen, very famous Cohen and Gressor Law Group.
[00:37:57]  It's a big, huge law firm.
[00:38:01]  Christian Everdell, I think, is the other lawyer on the case who actually worked on El Chapo's case.
[00:38:08]  Yeah, he's actually, that's the case with a couple of her lawyers is that he was a former U.S. attorney at the, not the U.S. attorney, but like assistant U.S. attorney at the Southern District of New York.
[00:38:19]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:20]  There's a lot of cross-pollinating going on here.
[00:38:22]  Yes.
[00:38:22]  So these, I'm sure everybody knows each other here.
[00:38:25]  Yeah, but I, you know, I just want to impress some people that like this, you know, this law firm is an incredibly impressive law firm.
[00:38:33]  You know, they take high-profile cases.
[00:38:35]  That's what they do.
[00:38:37]  I will say like listening in, they sounded incredibly confident, even when they were caught flat-footed, it seems like.
[00:38:44]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:45]  And I will say that like I felt like the Southern District, I'm forgetting her name.
[00:38:56]  She sounded, you know, the attorney representing the Southern District of New York sounded very shook.
[00:39:03]  I'll just say that.
[00:39:04]  She did, yeah.
[00:39:04]  Yeah.
[00:39:05]  She sounded more.
[00:39:06]  Cohen seemed more in control for sure.
[00:39:10]  He definitely has like a very lawyer voice.
[00:39:13]  Yes.
[00:39:13]  And I do not mean that in a good way.
[00:39:16]  But yeah, I was looking at their, their law firm seems like these, a lot of these people that she has working for, I don't mean a lot.
[00:39:27]  She has four people working for her.
[00:39:29]  But they have dealt with criminal cases in the past.
[00:39:32]  Like Mark Cohen, I got to mention this fact.
[00:39:35]  One of his big busts or one of his big convictions was a guy named Tommy Karate, who was a killer for the Bonano crime family back in July 92.
[00:39:46]  So Mark and Christian have both worked on like non-white collar things, but their firm seems mostly to be a white collar firm.
[00:39:54]  Like one of the big clients is Goldman Sachs.
[00:39:56]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:57]  One of her other attorneys, Lauren Menninger, also used to work for it.
[00:40:00]  So crossover with Goldman Sachs as well.
[00:40:03]  So take that as you want.
[00:40:06]  I will say I was like not very impressed by the arguments that they put forth.
[00:40:10]  And it was like, that's kind of what you're saying, where you're like, were they not prepared?
[00:40:16]  What was going on here?
[00:40:17]  Like, it didn't seem, you know, it's like a little confusing how they were presenting their defense or, you know, at least for arguing for bail.
[00:40:25]  Like, I mean, at one point, Cohen starts arguing that she should be let go because the the two there was like two lawyers that were let go for throwing, or let go on bail for throwing, Molotov cocktails at the cops.
[00:40:45]  Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah, those two yeah, like just last in June yeah yeah, he was like oh, two city attorneys did this and they were let go.
[00:40:53]  Therefore, Ghillain Maxwell should be, and it was like, wait, what?
[00:40:56]  What is this line of FREE CITY?
[00:40:59]  They also reference the US Versus Khashoggi case.
[00:41:02]  That, of course which okay pause, siren conspiracy, nuts throwdown.
[00:41:10]  Because why the fuck is he referencing the Khashoggi case?

=== Ghillane's Financial Fiasco (15:09) ===

[00:41:14]  I know why, but there are plenty of other cases he could reference for the point that he's trying to make.
[00:41:19]  Yeah yeah, this is not, of course, the recently deceased Khashoggi.
[00:41:23]  This is the less recently deceased Khashoggi, Anon Khashoggi, the famous CIA arms trafficker who, in the late 80s, got in trouble with the US government because he was violating the RICO Act, which is a you don't want to.
[00:41:38]  You don't want to get busted for violating the RICO Act although, I will say many, let's say, clandestine employees of the United States government have been got caught up on RICO charges.
[00:41:48]  So yeah anyways, he was basically trying to funnel money for the former dictator of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos which, when I read that, I'm not gonna tell this joke but Jose Mary Cissan, the leader of the NEW People's ARMY NPA, Ghelane Maxwell, put two and two together.
[00:42:09]  There you go anyways.
[00:42:11]  So yeah Khashoggi, of course good friends with Ghelane Maxwell's father, Israeli spy, Robert Maxwell, and I believe although I might be wrong, I believe purchased the lady Ghelane.
[00:42:25]  Yeah, I mean, there's so much there.
[00:42:27]  It's very bizarre that the defense would reference this case like without any wink wink nudge, nudge.
[00:42:36]  I just don't buy it.
[00:42:37]  I don't buy it in a straight face, I mean, come on.
[00:42:40]  So so there were basically two separate narratives put forward.
[00:42:43]  Well yeah well, it was.
[00:42:46]  Basically it was a mirrored narrative.
[00:42:48]  One is from the prosecution, saying here are the reasons that this woman needs to stay locked up.
[00:42:53]  One's from the defense, saying here are those same reasons, but us proving that's actually why she should be let go.
[00:42:58]  So one of the main things that the prosecution talks about is that she is uh, a citizen of a country which does not have an extradition treaty with the?
[00:43:07]  U.s.
[00:43:08]  And which, in fact, does not extradite its own citizens at all.
[00:43:11]  That country is friends.
[00:43:12]  Yeah, the Polansky theory Because, as listeners will know, Ghelane's mother is French.
[00:43:18]  Ghelaine has three different citizenships.
[00:43:21]  She has France, the UK, and of course, America.
[00:43:24]  I think she became naturalized in the early 2000s.
[00:43:27]  And if Ghelane fled to France, I knew that France doesn't extradite.
[00:43:34]  I mean, famously, and oftentimes justly, they haven't done that in the past, specifically.
[00:43:38]  It's going to be the interwar period.
[00:43:41]  But that would be like, so what the prosecution says is obviously she can leave to this country, which it would be very easy for her to get to, and then we couldn't get her.
[00:43:52]  Or if she left to the UK, okay, we can try to extradite her from there.
[00:43:56]  But while that extradition process is going on, she can, first of all, hold that up for a long fucking time.
[00:44:01]  And she's got friends in literally the highest of places in England.
[00:44:06]  Like, there's people, you know, who owe her favors, including the fucking queen.
[00:44:11]  Yeah, photos just released last week of her sitting on the throne with Kevin Spacey.
[00:44:21]  Yes, which a long rumored picture of Spacey doing that.
[00:44:25]  But God, Ghelane being there was, I mean, I was shocked.
[00:44:30]  Well, actually, I was the opposite of shock.
[00:44:32]  Also, terrible photo.
[00:44:33]  I mean, flash photography and not in that cool, like, you know, point and shoot way.
[00:44:38]  Just horrible.
[00:44:39]  No, really bad.
[00:44:42]  The prosecution talks about her transient lifestyle, which I thought was really funny.
[00:44:47]  They use those words.
[00:44:48]  Yeah, we should say, too, that, like, kind of like you were saying, you know, the prosecution offers this thing and the defense responds and they got a thing.
[00:44:55]  Their response to the France thing was so funny because what they said was, what do you mean?
[00:45:01]  She's got really close sisters in the U.S. that she's been very close to and will never leave.
[00:45:08]  And that's, so she would never leave.
[00:45:10]  She will never leave.
[00:45:11]  And like, that's like basically the case they offered.
[00:45:15]  Yeah, I did, I did, I was rather, well, not, again, not surprised, but, but I was interested to see that Isabel and Christine Maxwell, although not by name, come up quite a lot during terms of this.
[00:45:32]  And she also, so this is actually from the defense, like this is just what you were referencing.
[00:45:39]  Miss Maxwell is very close with her sisters and maintains regular contact with them, as well as with her nieces and nephews.
[00:45:48]  Now, ding, ding, ding.
[00:45:50]  Let's see what Truanon listeners can guess where we're going next.
[00:45:56]  So close listeners to the podcast will remember last October when Truanon broke the story that Ghelane's nephew, one Alexander Jarasi, was one of two Clinton appointees to the State Department.
[00:46:10]  One of two political appointees.
[00:46:13]  The other, of course, is a man who Virginia Jeffrey says molested her.
[00:46:16]  So a lot of Epstein ties right there.
[00:46:20]  And just those pair of people.
[00:46:22]  He was in the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs and he sat on the Friends of Syria committee and the Friends of Libya committee.
[00:46:29]  Now, you might be like, damn, friends of those countries?
[00:46:32]  Those countries are really getting fucked up.
[00:46:33]  No.
[00:46:34]  Hillary Clinton was famously a very close friend of Libya.
[00:46:38]  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:46:41]  And so those were essentially the groups of countries that had pledged to overthrow the leaders of those countries.
[00:46:47]  And in the case of Gaddafi, led to the death of him on the streets.
[00:46:53]  I can't remember which town it was in.
[00:46:55]  I think Tripoli.
[00:46:56]  Basically sodomized to death with a knife.
[00:46:59]  And so that is the kind of man we're talking about here.
[00:47:01]  And we should mention that, of course, Libya is now one of the capitals of the world slave trade.
[00:47:07]  So another thing that they say is that, well, actually, you know what?
[00:47:12]  I want to stay on this for just one more second.
[00:47:14]  So they actually say that Ghillain would not leave the country either because of travel restrictions related to coronavirus, right?
[00:47:22]  Yeah, okay.
[00:47:22]  So yeah, so corona becomes or COVID becomes like a central part of both the prosecution and the defense strategies.
[00:47:32]  And not, I mean, the defense really doesn't go very far with it, which was a bit surprising.
[00:47:41]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:47:42]  I mean, if I was them, I would have been like, this lady is old.
[00:47:46]  She's got Harvey Weinstein disease, which means she's sick as shit.
[00:47:50]  And guilty.
[00:47:50]  Like, and guilty.
[00:47:53]  And yeah.
[00:47:54]  So, but they basically just focused on the fact that she could get it, not that she was extreme risk if she got it, which I was very surprised by because that's like a really easy and semi-effective card to play.
[00:48:05]  Yeah, it's interesting.
[00:48:06]  I wonder, there's a part of me that wonders if Ghillain was like, you are absolutely not playing up my age.
[00:48:12]  That's exactly what I was thinking.
[00:48:15]  And in relation to travel restrictions, like, okay, well, Ghillain couldn't get on a plane.
[00:48:20]  And I have a feeling that if she did try to get on a plane anytime before this, she might have been met at the airport by somebody.
[00:48:25]  No, she's going to, she's going to have a chartered flight.
[00:48:27]  Of course she can get out of there.
[00:48:28]  That's just ridiculous.
[00:48:29]  Exactly.
[00:48:30]  Like, it's, it's, or you know what?
[00:48:32]  She could take a fucking boat.
[00:48:34]  Her ex-boyfriend, very recent ex-boyfriend, or maybe current boyfriend, I don't fucking know.
[00:48:39]  Scott Borgeson, he runs a company that all it does is trick, or excuse me, track shipping.
[00:48:48]  Yeah.
[00:48:48]  And so it's like, it's maritime shipping.
[00:48:52]  And so it's not like I'm sure that guy has some contacts in the maritime world.
[00:48:56]  Not to mention, of course, her long-standing interest in seasteading.
[00:49:01]  Yes, yeah, exactly.
[00:49:03]  She could be, you know, out there on the seas Founding the new world.
[00:49:10]  the new libertarian world order
[00:49:32]  so another thing that came up quite a lot in sort of in especially brought to mind what i was saying earlier in that she fucked a lot of things up and her defense really tried to ameliorate the damages and were not very effective at it is in terms of her finances Yeah, this is all very weird.
[00:49:49]  There was like a very bizarre back and forth between the prosecution and the defense over basically if Maxwell was, it feels, I don't want to call her Maxwell.
[00:50:00]  I'm just doing that because I was listening to the court proceedings today.
[00:50:03]  If Ghillain was being honest and forthcoming about her finances.
[00:50:11]  And basically the defense, you know, the prosecution is saying she's got all these millions wrapped up.
[00:50:16]  You know, last episode or two episodes ago, we covered there are a bunch of tricky financial transactions that happened that the government was watching.
[00:50:25]  They're seeing all this money move around.
[00:50:27]  So they're saying she has all of these resources, therefore she shouldn't get bail because she can flee the country with all this money, right?
[00:50:36]  So then the defense says, actually, none of that's true.
[00:50:40]  And they're exaggerating everything.
[00:50:43]  Yeah.
[00:50:44]  And they kind of just leave it at that.
[00:50:47]  What I thought was strange too is so Ghillane gets arrested and they are interviewing her for this pretrial thing I was referencing earlier.
[00:50:54]  And they ask a question about her finances and they ask her specifically how much income she has coming in.
[00:51:02]  And she says zero.
[00:51:03]  Now, that is insane.
[00:51:06]  First of all, the prosecution lays out, and it was reported literally last week.
[00:51:11]  I don't know if you read the papers, that she not only has a trust of, she set up a Swiss bank account last year, which is always a move favored by people who are really just trying to be forthright and transparent about what's going on.
[00:51:24]  She says that she tells the banker there that she has an income of $200,000 a year from a trust.
[00:51:31]  And she also has millions of dollars hidden in about 15 different accounts, including a lot of overseas accounts.
[00:51:38]  So all told, there's numbers thrown around anywhere from $10 to $20 million that she has that we know about.
[00:51:44]  And I'm sure that number is increased by whatever buried funds she has.
[00:51:50]  Or maybe she didn't bear any fucking funds because she's fucking stupid.
[00:51:54]  But she told the government that she had no idea how much money she had.
[00:52:00]  No, wait, I just want to pause her say, that was a direct quote.
[00:52:03]  How much money do you have?
[00:52:04]  I don't know.
[00:52:06]  Yeah.
[00:52:07]  Yeah.
[00:52:08]  And that, of course, the prosecution does have somewhat of an idea of how much money she does have.
[00:52:16]  And so it was kind of wild to just watch her lawyers basically be like, they turned that around and they said that because of COVID, we can't meet with her, which is true.
[00:52:27]  And you don't really think about that.
[00:52:28]  You can't meet with your clients during COVID, I guess, because you could give it to them.
[00:52:34]  And because she's in jail.
[00:52:37]  She can't get to her finances.
[00:52:39]  And because the government didn't let her surrender, which by the way was not on the table, and insisted on arresting her, she had no time to go through her finances and prepare like a completely transparent report explaining everything.
[00:52:56]  Yeah, we should say, too, that the presiding judge, U.S. District Judge Allison Nathan, lady judge, did not buy this argument at all and really pushed back on it.
[00:53:07]  And it was actually pretty funny to listen because she basically was like, sorry, are you saying that you're like pushing back on what Cohen, Gillian's attorney, was arguing, saying, I'm sorry, are you saying that you didn't have adequate enough time for your client to go over their finances?
[00:53:25]  Like just really didn't buy this argument at all.
[00:53:29]  Yeah.
[00:53:30]  And, you know, for good reason, it's completely absurd.
[00:53:33]  Yeah, Cohen kept saying stuff like that, like basically accusing the court of several times, sometimes obliquely and sometimes pretty straightforwardly, he accused the court of doing this really political prosecution.
[00:53:46]  Oh, and he kept right.
[00:53:47]  I don't know.
[00:53:48]  What did he kept referring?
[00:53:49]  He kept referring to it as spin and the media.
[00:53:53]  It was all spin.
[00:53:54]  It was all the media and the government spin.
[00:53:56]  I really hope we get like a MAGA defense out of this guy because that would be culture warp, baby.
[00:54:05]  I'm ready.
[00:54:06]  But he would say something like that, which, you know, when you're in court, you want to be extremely respectful to the judge.
[00:54:14]  And he was saying sort of like aggressive stuff.
[00:54:17]  And then the judge would be like, do you mean this by that?
[00:54:19]  Like she would ask him if he means this thing that he's obviously saying.
[00:54:23]  And he'd be like, no, I would never suggest that.
[00:54:25]  I'm simply saying, and then lay out some sort of mealy mouth way to say the same thing.
[00:54:31]  A real lawyer.
[00:54:33]  But that's another instance of Ghillain doing something totally boneheaded.
[00:54:37]  And then her lawyers basically trying to scramble to cover it up.
[00:54:45]  One thing, too, is that they were saying, like, so what she wanted, her release conditions that she wanted, because her defense team proposed conditions for her release, or rather, what would life be like for her out on bail?
[00:55:02]  And the conditions are, I'm just going to read from this real quick.
[00:55:05]  We propose the following bail conditions, which are consistent with those that the courts in this circuit have imposed in analogous situations.
[00:55:12]  One, a $5 million personal recognizance bond co-signed by six financially responsible people, all of whom have strong ties to Ms. Maxwell, and secured by real property in the United Kingdom worth over $3.75 million.
[00:55:25]  Little footnote on that.
[00:55:27]  In the prosecutions memorandum that they put forward, they're like, we can't do anything with property in another country.
[00:55:31]  Right, right.
[00:55:33]  That's her property, right?
[00:55:34]  And her family.
[00:55:36]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:55:38]  She apparently didn't explicitly make this known before today, but those are her sisters and brothers.
[00:55:44]  That British soldier who was with her earlier, the guy who was her posing as her husband, although she might have really gotten married to him, who knows, was hired, she says, by one of her brothers.
[00:55:55]  Now, she has a lot of family members, a lot of siblings.
[00:55:58]  So I don't know exactly which one that is yet, but I'll try to figure it out.
[00:56:02]  So released her on this bond, which by the way, she actually didn't put forth any money, which the prosecution noticed.
[00:56:09]  They were like, she refused to put forward a penny in bond and instead really insisted on using this property.
[00:56:15]  Well, that's how the rich stay rich.
[00:56:18]  Exactly.
[00:56:19]  But like, incredible.
[00:56:20]  Like, you'd think she'd at least like just try to be like, yeah, I'll give you $10 million.

=== Potential Penalties Questioned (11:17) ===

[00:56:23]  Whatever.
[00:56:24]  Just let me know.
[00:56:25]  Two, travel restricted to the southern and eastern districts of New York.
[00:56:30]  Three, surrender of all travel documents with no new applications, like she doesn't have fucking more.
[00:56:35]  Four, strict supervision by pre-trial services.
[00:56:39]  By that, she seems to mean it's like sort of said elsewhere that she would hire her own security.
[00:56:45]  Five, home confinement at a residence in the southern district of New York with electronic GPS monitoring.
[00:56:51]  As was made very clear during the call today, that meant a luxury hotel, which the prosecution brought up several times.
[00:56:58]  Yeah, that was the really amazing sort of sequence where they kept insisting that, you know, she could just, if they would just let her go, she will stay at a luxury hotel.
[00:57:12]  It's like, read the room, babe.
[00:57:14]  Well, the prosecution sort of rightly pointed out too, is that, well, you say you have no money or you say you don't know how much money you have.
[00:57:21]  How can you afford to stay at a luxury hotel in a penthouse indefinitely?
[00:57:25]  Well, COVID rates are pretty low at the moment because- I guess that's kind of true.
[00:57:31]  And the rest of them are like, we'll travel limited to court appearances in the counsel's office and then such other terms as the court may deem appropriate.
[00:57:38]  So those terms were not received.
[00:57:44]  Well no no, the uh presiding judge basically shot all of that down and said, you know, pretty much, you know, laid it all out and said sorry no there's, there's no way that an ankle monitor Gps, you know, home security, any of this is going to be enough, you know, to mitigate the rit, the flight risk, and and it seems like she really took the flight risk um, very seriously, which you know, I think is true.
[00:58:12]  So bail denied yeah, and they let uh they, specifically Annie Farmer was able to speak at one point and she urged the judge to deny bail, calling Ghelane a danger with many international contacts.
[00:58:27]  And uh, that seems to be totally in line with this.
[00:58:31]  Yes, now the last thing, the last thing that the defense sort of puts forward, is that the case that the prosecution sets forward is so weak that Ghelane shouldn't even be, is not worried about it, and so she wouldn't leave the country because she's facing such stiff penalties that it would just make more sense for her like she's not.
[00:58:50]  Her getting this charge doesn't really mean that much and in fact, her lawyer says that uh, it's a potential for miss Maxwell to spend decades in prison in quotes if she is convicted.
[00:59:00]  Uh, he says that the government overstates that potential and in fact, her likely total exposure, even if she were convicted on all accounts, is 10 years, assuming the court were to follow the traditional practice in this district.
[00:59:11]  Yeah.
[00:59:11]  Well, this is where I mean, you know, we should we should say that this is actually very interesting because the prosecution or excuse me, the defense seemed to kind of reveal what their strategy was going to be for the entire case, which is they are going to be.
[00:59:26]  And, you know, I think that there I think we had some suspicion and we brought this up in the last episode where we talked about this, that this would be the case, which is they are going to contest these charges based on the non-prosecution agreement that Epstein.
[00:59:41]  signed with uh, the FEDS, and say that the non-prosecution agreement which, of course remember, covers any potential Named or unnamed co-conspirators in the past or future cannot be indicted.
[01:00:01]  That was the arrangement that Epstein worked out with the feds, that that would cover any potential charges, including these levied against Gillane.
[01:00:11]  And this would be a way for them to throw out the entire case from the get-go.
[01:00:15]  I thought that was really interesting that they brought that up because listen, we are not, I mean, I am disbarred, but I'm a disbarred podiatrist, not a lawyer.
[01:00:28]  I found that really interesting because the NPA does not name.
[01:00:34]  I mean, famously, it didn't name the co-conspirators, the unindicted co-conspirators.
[01:00:39]  In fact, the prosecution brings that up in their own memorandum when they say the case is strong.
[01:00:47]  They say, first, the defendant was not a party to that agreement nor named in it, which I thought was confusing because I thought the whole point was that no one was named in it as a third-party beneficiary.
[01:00:56]  And the defendant offers no basis to think she would have standing to claim any rights under the NPA.
[01:01:03]  So it says, yeah.
[01:01:05]  This is also why we were speculating that they were focusing on the years 1994 to 1997 because this was a time quite prior to the alleged happenings under the non-prosecution agreement.
[01:01:23]  And so the idea being that they could make a more airtight case if it was outside of what the federal, you know, the federal issues were with Epstein.
[01:01:34]  Now, the defense obviously understood this and has also come back and said they're going to have such a hard time proving a case 25 years old, that there's no evidence, you know, throwing all that stuff out there, which I think is to be, you know, expected, but also makes me worry because I think, you know, I don't know, that could be true.
[01:01:58]  Yeah, I honestly have no way.
[01:02:01]  I mean, again, we're not lawyers.
[01:02:02]  I don't know if that's true at all.
[01:02:04]  I mean, her lawyers, who are pretty good lawyers, seem to think it's either true or it will serve as like a good roadblock.
[01:02:12]  If they're smart, that was just a faint little sun zoo maneuver where they made it seem like that that was going to be their argument.
[01:02:19]  And so the prosecution sort of prepares for that.
[01:02:21]  And then they, bam, hit him with another one.
[01:02:23]  Yeah.
[01:02:24]  One, two, punch.
[01:02:26]  But the prosecution does say that they have a shit ton of evidence and witnesses, including physical evidence.
[01:02:31]  Yeah, so that was another interesting point.
[01:02:33]  And I wonder if, I mean, I don't know, it was interesting.
[01:02:36]  They said they have all of the files from the Florida investigation in New York presently, and that they're going through and coming through both the local, I believe, and the federal files that were compiled against Epstein.
[01:02:51]  And then this is, of course, when then the defense comes back in and says, you're conflating Ghillene with Epstein.
[01:02:56]  This is unfair.
[01:02:56]  These are two different people.
[01:02:58]  Yes.
[01:02:59]  A line repeated often.
[01:03:00]  Yes, yes, yes.
[01:03:02]  And that seems to be another potential cornerstone of her defense.
[01:03:09]  Yeah, I will say they also had a really amazing defense of the perjury charges, which I can't even replicate here because I can't do the lawyer thing.
[01:03:17]  But they're like, well, she was telling the truth.
[01:03:19]  It basically boils down to she was telling the truth and now you're mad at her for that.
[01:03:24]  Which was like, that's gaslighting her.
[01:03:29]  Exactly.
[01:03:31]  Yeah, I mean, I think that the Southern District of New York is playing it pretty safe with the time period they chose.
[01:03:36]  But also, remember, Ghillen is not being indicted for child molestation.
[01:03:44]  She is being indicted for basically what amounts to grooming, transporting minors across state lines, basically like facilitating sex with minors.
[01:03:51]  Procuring.
[01:03:52]  They keep using the word procuring.
[01:03:54]  Yes.
[01:03:55]  And there are several charges relating to that.
[01:03:59]  I think that they probably picked these out with all the, like, I think the case is crafted around that.
[01:04:05]  Yeah.
[01:04:05]  Because those will more likely be easier to prove than like a rape case that was 25 years old.
[01:04:10]  Well, the flip side of that is it was crafted around that or something has already been worked out.
[01:04:16]  Yeah, yeah.
[01:04:18]  That's your theory on this.
[01:04:19]  It's not, I don't know what I think, but you got to keep that in the back of your mind.
[01:04:24]  Yeah, when Cohen said 10 years, he's like, she won't get more than 10 years.
[01:04:28]  That made me think like, what if she doesn't get more than 10 years?
[01:04:31]  Yeah, Fix is in.
[01:04:33]  Fix is fucking in.
[01:04:35]  I mean, remember, this person has, or at least had, at some point, tapes of basically everybody from Ehu Barak to the damn fucking Prince Andrew in very, let's say, embarrassing sexual situations.
[01:04:52]  And so that leverage is worth something.
[01:04:54]  I'm just wondering, like, I don't think it'll be blatantly put out there or blatantly used, but I think it will be.
[01:05:01]  Well, also, it might have already been.
[01:05:05]  Yeah.
[01:05:06]  Yeah, there's that too.
[01:05:09]  Well, is there anything else?
[01:05:10]  Well, I do want to mention just before, because we got to wrap this up.
[01:05:13]  I want to say that, so they sent, you know, we mentioned they set the tentative trial date for July 21st, 2021, more than a year from now.
[01:05:24]  That sounds insane.
[01:05:28]  Just to give a tentative kind of schedule here, they sent a deadline for subpoena responses for August of 2020.
[01:05:38]  So in the next month, they said completion of discovery will be by November 9th, 2020.
[01:05:47]  And all defense motions will be in by January 22nd, 2021.
[01:05:53]  Now, another thing is that the prosecution said they do not anticipate any more charges will be levied against Maxwell, although they said, oh, the, you know, the investigation's ongoing, blah, blah, blah, what they always said.
[01:06:07]  But they basically said, no, we don't anticipate charging her with anything else.
[01:06:11]  And they said, we don't anticipate the trial taking more than two weeks.
[01:06:18]  Yeah, yes.
[01:06:19]  And I'm really excited for the subpoena portion because, especially relating to the perjury charges, you know, the facility, the sex trafficking charges are, you know, from 94 to 97.
[01:06:33]  But the perjury charges, she basically, she just said that she had no idea that Epstein was doing anything, that it was all news to her.
[01:06:42]  And that could leave us open to people being subpoenaed from different periods in her and Epstein's relationship.
[01:06:49]  And my number one goal for that is one Mr. Alan Dershowitz.
[01:06:56]  Yeah, it could get real interesting.
[01:06:59]  I don't know.
[01:06:59]  We'll see.
[01:07:01]  I feel I'm like very cautious about even talking about a trial happening.
[01:07:07]  But yeah, it's one of those things, and this is a good rule for everything.
[01:07:11]  Never, never, ever count your eggs until they're hatched.
[01:07:14]  Yeah.
[01:07:29]  Can't do it, do it, do it, do it.
[01:07:37]  Can't do it, do it, do it.

=== Breaking The Glass Ceiling (01:33) ===

[01:07:41]  What if she dies of just being ugly?
[01:07:43]  You can't die from being ugly.
[01:07:46]  What if she's the first?
[01:07:48]  I mean, well, then she's breaking the glass ceiling, Brace, and you have to respect that.
[01:07:53]  The thing about dying if you're ugly is that, like, who would even know?
[01:07:56]  Because, you know, you have such a repulsive visage that no one would ever come near you.
[01:08:00]  Yeah, they just keep people could be like, they just keep them like regular deaths like they do COVID now.
[01:08:05]  Exactly.
[01:08:06]  Yeah, precisely.
[01:08:07]  So who knows?
[01:08:09]  She could catch a glimpse of her craggy face in the dangling keys of a strutting and whistling guard and suffer such a shock that her blood coagulates, her brain explodes, and her eyeballs roll down the cell.
[01:08:26]  A modern Medusa.
[01:08:31]  Well, I'm going to go study for the California bar because I'm not disbarred from that yet.
[01:08:36]  I'm going to take a shower because talking about Gillian Maxwell for a fucking hour makes me feel disgusting.
[01:08:43]  I'm actually tonight, right now, I'm actually going to go to the In N Out where Ghelane is.
[01:08:48]  Oh, I know.
[01:08:50]  I'm excited.
[01:08:50]  Take a photo.
[01:08:51]  Photoshop me in because it's unfair.
[01:08:53]  I'm not there with you.
[01:08:54]  Of course.
[01:08:55]  Yeah, I'll just do face swap.
[01:08:57]  Perfect.
[01:08:57]  But everyone always looks great on that.
[01:09:00]  Yeah, fantastic.
[01:09:02]  All right.
[01:09:02]  Well, my name, of course, is Brace.
[01:09:06]  I'm Liz.
[01:09:07]  We are, as always, joined by producer Young Chomsky.
[01:09:12]  And we will see you next time.