True Anon Truth Feed - Episode 67: Maria Farmer
Aired: 2020-05-08
Duration: 01:38:11


=== Maria Farmer's Story (14:46) ===

[00:00:00]  Hey guys, Liz here.
[00:00:02]  Just wanted to say that this was originally planned to be a two-part episode, but we decided that we're releasing it in full.
[00:00:09]  So thanks for listening.
[00:00:11]  Welcome to Trunon.
[00:00:13]  I'm Liz.
[00:00:15]  I'm Brace, joined by producer Young Chopsky.
[00:00:18]  And we have a bit of a different episode this week.
[00:00:20]  We are joined by Maria Farmer, who is a victim of Jeffrey Epstein's, who's joining us on a very long phone call from across the other side of the United States, where we're, and we're going to walk through and talk about her experiences with Jeffrey and Ghylaine.
[00:00:41]  And, you know, it's going to get a little tough.
[00:00:45]  It got tough for me.
[00:00:46]  I think it got tough for Brace.
[00:00:48]  And it certainly has been tough for Maria.
[00:00:51]  So we're going to start that right now.
[00:01:18]  How you doing?
[00:01:19]  Hi.
[00:01:19]  Thank you for having me.
[00:01:21]  I'm very flattered.
[00:01:22]  Oh, thank you.
[00:01:24]  We are honored that you could join us.
[00:01:27]  So, Maria, do you want to talk a little about your early life?
[00:01:32]  I know you were an artist.
[00:01:33]  I mean, you're still obviously very much an artist.
[00:01:35]  And just give us, you know, your start.
[00:01:38]  I know you moved to New York and went to art school.
[00:01:41]  Yes.
[00:01:42]  So I have always wanted to be an artist.
[00:01:45]  I began kind of in the crib, but then I was studying pre-med in college out in the Silicon Valley.
[00:01:53]  And then I decided I wanted to be an artist.
[00:01:55]  And so I really dove into that.
[00:01:58]  And I was going to a Jesuit school.
[00:01:59]  And the Jesuits like made a deal with me that I could go to France.
[00:02:03]  And it would be matriculated if I got like straight A's for two years.
[00:02:07]  Okay.
[00:02:07]  So I did that.
[00:02:08]  It was really cool.
[00:02:08]  And they made it matriculated.
[00:02:10]  They honored it.
[00:02:11]  And I went to an art school in the south of France called Lacos School of the Arts of the South.
[00:02:18]  And anyway, the Lacos School was a figurative art school where they studied a lot of the same kind of thing as the New York Academy of Art where I went to graduate school.
[00:02:27]  But the funny thing is, the first day I was there, I remember seeing like a poster.
[00:02:31]  And I had this German roommate and she was pretty cool, but she said this really bizarre thing to me.
[00:02:37]  She said, I said, I want to go to that school because I really admired the drawing on the poster.
[00:02:44]  And she said, you can't go to that school.
[00:02:47]  And I said, why?
[00:02:48]  And she said, because it's a pedophile ring.
[00:02:52]  Those are her exact words.
[00:02:54]  And I thought, that is the weirdest, most conspiratorial, you know what I mean?
[00:02:58]  I never thought about these things.
[00:03:00]  And I kind of felt sorry for her.
[00:03:01]  Like, who thinks about pedophilia?
[00:03:03]  And, you know, I didn't even know that was real.
[00:03:05]  I don't know.
[00:03:06]  I just never thought about it.
[00:03:07]  So you don't really think about it unless you, you know, think about it.
[00:03:11]  It's not something you generally, you know, it's all on top of your mind in college.
[00:03:15]  Right.
[00:03:16]  So I go to graduate school and I go to that school and I study with the man who did the drawing.
[00:03:20]  His name's Randy Mellick.
[00:03:22]  He's so talented.
[00:03:23]  And I studied with Eric Fischel there, who's this incredible talent.
[00:03:27]  Just this, he was your mentor, right?
[00:03:30]  Yes, yes.
[00:03:32]  And he was an incredible artist, but just a great thinker, a great professor.
[00:03:38]  He's married to this brilliant woman, April Gornick.
[00:03:41]  I mean, they're just, there's just, it was just a great opportunity, right?
[00:03:44]  And they had nothing to do with any of this stuff.
[00:03:46]  They had no, of course, yeah.
[00:03:48]  There were a few people who didn't have a clue, but most people did.
[00:03:52]  Most people knew.
[00:03:54]  And so when I end up at that school and I end up being introduced by the dean of students to Jeffrey and Gilan on the night of after graduation.
[00:04:09]  Where was that that you were introduced?
[00:04:11]  So that was at the New York Academy of Art and on Franklin Street.
[00:04:16]  And Eileen, I had just sold a painting and Eileen insisted that I give the check back to the guy and take half of what I was just paid because of the academy, because these people are patrons of the academy, Maria.
[00:04:30]  So you're going to do it for the academy.
[00:04:32]  So I gave away a check for $12,000, which was not fun.
[00:04:37]  And then I took a check for six.
[00:04:39]  And I just honestly just thought, I'll never see them again.
[00:04:42]  You know, I don't like these people.
[00:04:44]  This is so not fun for me.
[00:04:45]  But I really did it because it was, it was kind of held over my head for the academy.
[00:04:50]  Yeah.
[00:04:50]  So, so they were, so basically, it was Epstein and Gillane kind of got the school to give them your pain to have you sell your painting at a lower price.
[00:05:01]  Yes.
[00:05:01]  But it was negotiated before I was ever, you know, involved.
[00:05:05]  Did you, I mean, I, I, I wouldn't really expect someone in art school in the 90s to like know who Epstein was because most people did until pretty recently.
[00:05:14]  Um, but did you have any sort of impression of them?
[00:05:16]  Or I honestly, when I first met them, thought they were really weird.
[00:05:20]  That was it.
[00:05:21]  I just thought they were creepy.
[00:05:22]  That's fair.
[00:05:23]  Yeah.
[00:05:24]  What was the, what gave you that impression?
[00:05:27]  Okay.
[00:05:28]  So he was super smiley.
[00:05:30]  Like he looked like a court jester or something.
[00:05:33]  And my sister and I called him the old Fonzie because he just like reminded us of that.
[00:05:38]  Like he wasn't really cool, but he thought he was.
[00:05:40]  You know, he does have this sort of sorry for him.
[00:05:42]  Yeah.
[00:05:44]  And what about Gillan?
[00:05:46]  Gilan, she was dressed up.
[00:05:48]  I remember, I don't remember what she was wearing.
[00:05:50]  I just remember thinking she was very glitzy and kind of tacky, you know?
[00:05:55]  I'm just being honest.
[00:05:58]  Yeah, I think you're basically, you're describing how I think most people who've seen them feel.
[00:06:03]  Yeah, the Upper East Side, like tacky, it's not in style, guys.
[00:06:06]  I don't know why they, I don't know why people like Eileen Guggenheim think that it's hip to be super rich and like wearing that stuff.
[00:06:13]  It's just not.
[00:06:14]  It's just not.
[00:06:15]  It's no longer cool.
[00:06:16]  Maybe it was in the 90s, but not now.
[00:06:20]  So after.
[00:06:22]  I mean, after you basically gave them back their check, took half of the money, and you had sold them a painting, right?
[00:06:29]  Right, right.
[00:06:30]  For drawing.
[00:06:31]  What was your next interaction with them?
[00:06:35]  Good question.
[00:06:36]  So the next interaction, I get a call from, again, Eileen Guggenheim.
[00:06:40]  And I'm actually in the Hamptons at the time.
[00:06:43]  I was doing an artist in residency there.
[00:06:45]  And it was a really wonderful experience.
[00:06:47]  And I didn't want to leave.
[00:06:48]  And she said, no, no, no, you have to go.
[00:06:50]  You're going for the academy, for the academy.
[00:06:52]  You're going to go to this ranch in New Mexico with me.
[00:06:56]  And then you're going to study.
[00:06:57]  And we're going to invite Eric Fischel.
[00:06:59]  And he's going to do the workshop.
[00:07:01]  And three women from the academy are coming with me.
[00:07:04]  And so we flew with her on a plane to go to, now we didn't fly on the Lolita Express that time.
[00:07:10]  I've flown on that plane a few times, but that was not one of them.
[00:07:13]  And so we flew with her commercial, right?
[00:07:17]  Sat with Eileen.
[00:07:18]  She denied all this, even though we flew there.
[00:07:21]  I have photographs of her, like hanging out with Eric Fischel on the trip.
[00:07:24]  And she's like, no, I was never there, but she was.
[00:07:26]  And so she took us to the estate.
[00:07:28]  And when we first got there, before we walked in, she pulled me aside and said, and I want you to flirt with him.
[00:07:33]  I want you to sit on his lap.
[00:07:35]  And she's instructing me to do all this creepy stuff.
[00:07:38]  Which I did not, I did not do that, but I did.
[00:07:41]  I was very flirtatious, you know, like laughing at all the jokes because I was.
[00:07:46]  Yeah, sure.
[00:07:47]  Right.
[00:07:48]  So this is Epstein's New Mexico property.
[00:07:51]  Right.
[00:07:51]  So this is when it was a double-wide trailer.
[00:07:54]  It was way.
[00:07:55]  Yeah.
[00:07:56]  Oh, my God.
[00:07:56]  Under construction, then I assume.
[00:07:58]  Yeah.
[00:07:59]  So it was, and, and Eileen had said to go in and like brag about the property.
[00:08:03]  So I looked, I told Epstein, I thought he had a really great double wide.
[00:08:08]  And Eileen was mad at me, but I don't know.
[00:08:11]  Anyway, so it that experience was very bizarre at the ranch.
[00:08:16]  And she, it ends up we had to play a game where Guillene would pass.
[00:08:21]  Okay, first of all, when we hung our coats up, there was a skeleton in the closet and Gilen thought that was hilarious.
[00:08:26]  And it was just, you see, like a toy skeleton.
[00:08:29]  Are you serious?
[00:08:30]  Yeah, literal skeleton in the closet.
[00:08:32]  And then we go to sit at the dinner and Eileen's there, the dean of students of the academy and three of the recent graduates.
[00:08:40]  Eric wasn't there.
[00:08:41]  He didn't, he didn't have anything to do with that.
[00:08:42]  And so not to interrupt.
[00:08:45]  All young women.
[00:08:46]  Yeah, all women, not young.
[00:08:48]  I was the youngest at that school by far.
[00:08:50]  And but not young, but just women.
[00:08:54]  Of them, I don't know, I guess she was really flirty or something.
[00:08:57]  I don't know.
[00:08:58]  Yeah, but the other one was just this brilliant woman, Ursula Rudenberg.
[00:09:02]  And if you guys ever, you should talk to her sometime.
[00:09:03]  I mean, she is like the neatest lady.
[00:09:05]  She was someone I actually trusted with my dog.
[00:09:08]  She was the only person in New York that I would leave my dog with her.
[00:09:10]  But Ursula is really, really smart woman.
[00:09:13]  And so she observed a lot when she was there.
[00:09:16]  And I didn't even remember part of it.
[00:09:18]  I had blocked it, probably trauma or something.
[00:09:20]  Of course.
[00:09:21]  She had a lot of details.
[00:09:22]  So Ursula was very cool.
[00:09:23]  And I think, I think Eileen probably brought her because she knew that I really liked her.
[00:09:28]  And I don't know.
[00:09:29]  I think that's why.
[00:09:30]  But anyway, unfortunately, she brought her.
[00:09:32]  And Ursula is very smart and she remembers everything.
[00:09:35]  So she backed me when Eileen lied.
[00:09:38]  So you guys are at this dinner.
[00:09:40]  Yes.
[00:09:40]  And in the bag, Eileen, Gilan passes around a little bag and it's a brown baggie and it has falsies in it.
[00:09:48]  And we all have to close our eyes and feel and guess what's in there.
[00:09:51]  Yeah.
[00:09:52]  And then we're supposed to take them out and put them in and pretend like we're wearing them.
[00:09:56]  Yeah.
[00:09:56]  Oh, wait.
[00:09:57]  So the dean of students is playing with falsies.
[00:10:00]  Wait.
[00:10:01]  Sorry.
[00:10:02]  I'm not up on the lingo.
[00:10:04]  Does that mean like inserts for bras?
[00:10:06]  Yes.
[00:10:07]  Like fake boobs.
[00:10:08]  They were actually fake breaths.
[00:10:10]  Yeah.
[00:10:10]  Maria, that is very weird.
[00:10:12]  Yeah.
[00:10:13]  It was bizarre.
[00:10:14]  I have to say that hearing this and then also everything I've read about her, she, you know, Gilane seems to have an awful sense of humor.
[00:10:22]  Yeah, it's not very funny.
[00:10:25]  Yeah.
[00:10:25]  Not funny.
[00:10:25]  Not funny.
[00:10:26]  It's like a, it's like, you know, those old Benny Hill shows, like that kind of humor.
[00:10:30]  You know, it doesn't work.
[00:10:31]  And Epstein had the same kind of humor, but the thing about Epstein, he's so gross, but he was so charming, guys.
[00:10:38]  Like he really was.
[00:10:39]  Yeah.
[00:10:39]  He was so incredibly charming.
[00:10:41]  And she was too back then.
[00:10:43]  She was really, really charming back then.
[00:10:46]  And I'll tell you this: when I got to the ranch before we had dinner, Eileen Guggenheim like led me out by my elbow to go to outside to meet Gilan.
[00:10:56]  And Gilan literally freaking rode up on a white horse.
[00:11:01]  She seems very theatrical.
[00:11:04]  This is on a white horse.
[00:11:06]  Yeah.
[00:11:06]  So she's on a white horse and she's in full-blown like equestrian attire, like a Ralph Lauren ad, right?
[00:11:13]  Yes.
[00:11:14]  Yeah.
[00:11:14]  She was obsessed with Ralph Lauren, by the way.
[00:11:16]  She would always say, I think Epstein looks just like Ralph Lauren.
[00:11:19]  And I'm like, I don't know if that's a good look or not.
[00:11:21]  I don't know.
[00:11:22]  That's true.
[00:11:23]  Like, I'm not so sure.
[00:11:24]  I don't think they really do look like, you know?
[00:11:27]  Okay.
[00:11:30]  Yeah.
[00:11:30]  Lauren's a lot more attractive.
[00:11:32]  Yeah, she certainly seems to have the flair for the dramatic.
[00:11:36]  Oh, absolutely.
[00:11:37]  Yeah, absolutely.
[00:11:39]  And yeah, it was, she was just so insincere, you know, but she seemed really fabulous when you first met her.
[00:11:46]  And so I was blown away by this woman, like, oh, her proper King's English and all of us, you know, it was amazing.
[00:11:52]  Sure.
[00:11:53]  And intimidating, I would imagine.
[00:11:55]  Very intimidating and impressive, strangely.
[00:11:59]  Yes, you just wanted to please these women.
[00:12:03]  Like they had all this power, but it wasn't because I wanted power.
[00:12:06]  It was because I'm just kind of a people pleaser and it was a nightmare.
[00:12:09]  It was really a nightmare.
[00:12:11]  I'm not like that anymore.
[00:12:12]  I don't please anybody.
[00:12:14]  You mentioned the charm, the kind of natural charm.
[00:12:17]  And it is funny because that does seem to be, I mean, at least in interviews I've read with other people who knew them, just like a constant recurring theme of actually how kind of like disarmingly charming they were.
[00:12:32]  You wouldn't expect it.
[00:12:34]  No, they were grifters or hoodwinkers or something.
[00:12:37]  Con men.
[00:12:38]  Yeah.
[00:12:39]  Well, that's the thing is, I don't think that he could have sort of gotten away with asthma.
[00:12:43]  I mean, money will get you away, let you get away with a lot, but you do have to be, you know, a certain level of charming because people, people, I mean, that's the whole point: people don't immediately suspect you because, like, oh, that nice guy, like, you know, he's such an affable fella.
[00:12:58]  Like, Ghelane, like, from what I understand, is Ghelene had this way of like seeming very important.
[00:13:03]  And so, when she paid you attention to somebody, they would feel important too, which is a classic sort of abusers tactic.
[00:13:10]  Yes.
[00:13:10]  Um, she's a psychopath.
[00:13:11]  She would make you feel like you're the only one in the room.
[00:13:13]  Yes.
[00:13:14]  Most important person.
[00:13:15]  And Epstein did the same thing.
[00:13:17]  He did the same thing.
[00:13:18]  Yeah.
[00:13:19]  Was he very like attentive at this dinner?
[00:13:22]  I mean, or did he like, I mean, you know, it seems like there's a lot of people there, right?
[00:13:26]  So, yeah.
[00:13:27]  All of his attention was paid to me.
[00:13:30]  Yeah.
[00:13:31]  It made me feel uncomfortable.
[00:13:32]  And I didn't understand.
[00:13:34]  You know, I just thought this is creepy.
[00:13:36]  And you had just been brought there by, you know, someone at your college makes absolutely Eileen Guggenheim.
[00:13:43]  Yeah.
[00:13:43]  Like, who doesn't adore their dean?
[00:13:46]  Like at the Jesuit school, the dean was like the coolest guy.
[00:13:49]  He's the one who helped me get into France.
[00:13:51]  So at the school in France, like, I always thought the dean was a really important part of your education, not part of pimping you.
[00:13:57]  And especially if you have a relationship with them, that's something that you want to nurture for your professional aspirations for, you know, networking.
[00:14:06]  It's only, it's only natural.
[00:14:08]  Right.
[00:14:08]  Well, my relationship with her was an abusive one where she used me as like a maid and her babysitter for her daughter, who, God bless, the child was rotten, you know, just spoiled rotten.
[00:14:20]  And so I, I mean, it's not the child's fault, right?
[00:14:23]  But she's, she was horrible.
[00:14:25]  And so I was constantly babysitting this rotten child and cleaning this woman's house.
[00:14:29]  And a lot of times, not a lot, but several times, she didn't pay me.
[00:14:33]  Her sister totally didn't pay me.
[00:14:36]  She paid me with two expired travelers checks, but her sister also said, Listen, I've got a bunch of crap.
[00:14:41]  I've got an old blanket and some costume jewelry.
[00:14:44]  You can sell at the flea market if you want to.

=== Abusive Networking (15:15) ===

[00:14:46]  Yeah.
[00:14:47]  That's like medieval bartery.
[00:14:48]  I know.
[00:14:49]  Sorry.
[00:14:50]  I made that loud.
[00:14:51]  No, no, that's hilarious.
[00:14:52]  This is like medieval murder.
[00:14:53]  Exactly.
[00:14:54]  It's like, no, this is like hilarious.
[00:14:56]  You know, your crops, I'm not going to give you any money for them, but I will give you several pounds of concrete.
[00:15:02]  Right?
[00:15:03]  I guess I didn't have concrete back then.
[00:15:04]  You know what I mean?
[00:15:05]  I had to, I had to actually, I mean, clean her toilets for two weeks.
[00:15:09]  And I just gotten my graduate degree.
[00:15:11]  You know, God, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:12]  And it's well, I think, I think that's something that probably makes this so difficult too, because like this is supposed to be somebody that you trust and you look up to, and who you don't.
[00:15:22]  I mean, this is a classic case of what happens in a lot of abuse situations.
[00:15:26]  You don't sort of assume automatically, even if they do something that's bad, you don't assume that it's bad.
[00:15:34]  I don't know.
[00:15:36]  It seems like it's very common.
[00:15:38]  Yes.
[00:15:38]  Yes.
[00:15:39]  And so what else?
[00:15:40]  So, like, how, so you guys had this dinner in Santa Fe, and what was like the rest of the trip like?
[00:15:47]  Um, so the rest of the trip was basically amazing because I was studying with this brilliant artist and it was like a four-to-one workshop.
[00:15:56]  So all of us had all this time to talk to him and learn.
[00:15:59]  And then we went to site Santa Fe following that, which the guy who was good friends with Eric was running.
[00:16:07]  And so that was really cool.
[00:16:09]  And that guy now is a really cool guy.
[00:16:12]  He's in charge of the art school at Columbia, I think, still.
[00:16:16]  But anyway, so we got to experience all these people, but that wasn't really why I was brought there.
[00:16:23]  So when you returned to New York, what happened?
[00:16:27]  So when I got back to New York, I received a call from Eileen saying that she didn't need me for the summer because she's going to her Tuscan villa.
[00:16:38]  And so she would have her sister hire me for two weeks.
[00:16:43]  Yeah, a sister that didn't pay me.
[00:16:44]  Yeah.
[00:16:45]  So I worked for her for two weeks when I got back.
[00:16:48]  And then when I stopped working for her, I went to, well, the day that I stopped working for her was because she had a nervous breakdown like in front of me screaming at me overeating watermelon in her house.
[00:16:59]  How dare I?
[00:17:00]  So I had to walk home.
[00:17:02]  But her husband was like, oh, yeah, I'm really sorry about that.
[00:17:04]  What a nightmare.
[00:17:05]  You don't need that.
[00:17:06]  And I got home and I had to walk because I didn't have the money for the subway.
[00:17:11]  I was so poor, literally the whole time.
[00:17:13]  I mean, it was a struggle.
[00:17:15]  So I get to, I get home and the phone's ringing as I'm trying to open my door.
[00:17:20]  And it's Jeffrey Epstein.
[00:17:21]  And he says, I'm so sorry you had to work for that bitch, Barbara, but guess what?
[00:17:24]  I've got a real job for you tomorrow.
[00:17:26]  So before we get into this next part, I do want to ask is back then, what did you want for yourself?
[00:17:56]  Like when you were going to art school, I mean, you're, you're, I mean, listeners, we'll post some of this too, but Maria and Maria, don't listen while I say this.
[00:18:03]  Maria is a very good artist.
[00:18:05]  It's like fantastic hard.
[00:18:07]  I didn't paint for 20 years.
[00:18:09]  So that is.
[00:18:10]  Just getting back.
[00:18:10]  Yeah.
[00:18:12]  Yeah.
[00:18:12]  And dude, like the UFO series, that's my first dip.
[00:18:15]  That's my first toe dip into the water of painting again in 20, almost 25 years.
[00:18:20]  Yeah, it's painful.
[00:18:21]  I couldn't do it because of the drama.
[00:18:22]  I couldn't paint because of drama.
[00:18:24]  Yeah.
[00:18:25]  Yeah.
[00:18:26]  And that's like, that's something that sticks out to me because obviously you have the trauma of the assault and everything that goes along with that too.
[00:18:34]  But like, I mean, it's also, it's tough because like you, I mean, you wanted to be a painter, right?
[00:18:40]  Yeah, I've always wanted to be.
[00:18:42]  So like in my journals from childhood, it says, I have the power to be a great artist.
[00:18:46]  I'm like in the third grade.
[00:18:48]  And then, yeah, another one says, when I grow up, I'm going to move to New York City and I'm going to go to the Met every day and I'm going to study painting.
[00:18:55]  Yeah.
[00:18:56]  That's, I'm like in the fourth grade in that.
[00:18:58]  So it has always been what I was supposed to do.
[00:19:00]  And that was the thing that killed me for every one of these victims is that everything they were supposed to do was stolen from them.
[00:19:07]  And we were all really badly abused, just in ways that are so bizarre, like verbally abused, emotionally abused.
[00:19:15]  Yeah.
[00:19:16]  I mean, that's that's, I mean, it's like, it's like the same thing.
[00:19:18]  Like I was told I wasn't allowed to eat at the country club because I wasn't the right religion by Gilan.
[00:19:23]  I mean, stuff like that is so messed up.
[00:19:25]  You know, it's like, and my boyfriend was like, what are you talking about?
[00:19:29]  Can I eat there?
[00:19:30]  He's Jewish.
[00:19:30]  She's like, can I go?
[00:19:31]  Am I allowed to eat there?
[00:19:33]  And I'm like, no, I guess not.
[00:19:34]  We're not the right ilk or something, you know?
[00:19:37]  Not rich enough.
[00:19:38]  Yeah.
[00:19:38]  We weren't wealthy.
[00:19:39]  Yeah.
[00:19:40]  It was, it had nothing, by the way, it had nothing to do with that.
[00:19:42]  It had everything to do with not having money and power.
[00:19:45]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:46]  And so that's, that's, that's kind of what I want to get into here.
[00:19:49]  Because you mentioned a country club.
[00:19:51]  And New Albany Country Club.
[00:19:53]  Not a lot of country clubs in New York.
[00:19:55]  No, no.
[00:19:56]  Thank you.
[00:19:57]  So you said, you said Jeffrey.
[00:19:59]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:59]  You said Jeffrey called you.
[00:20:02]  What was the job that he had?
[00:20:04]  Okay.
[00:20:05]  So the job he offered me, well, he wanted me to meet him in his office.
[00:20:08]  He didn't tell me that night.
[00:20:09]  He wanted me to meet him in his office the next morning.
[00:20:12]  And I showed up the next morning and Morgan Fairchild was seated beside him.
[00:20:18]  Yeah.
[00:20:20]  Sitting there.
[00:20:21]  She didn't say a word the whole time.
[00:20:22]  She just sat there like a little plastic doll.
[00:20:24]  She said like more plastic surgery.
[00:20:26]  I don't know.
[00:20:27]  Anyway, this is in the 90s.
[00:20:29]  Too much Botox.
[00:20:31]  Yeah, but this was in the 90s.
[00:20:32]  No, this is before Botox.
[00:20:34]  Yeah.
[00:20:35]  Yeah, this is old school plastic surgery.
[00:20:37]  Yeah, this is intense stuff.
[00:20:39]  So I don't like her because I want to know why she was always there and why she's never said anything about what he was doing.
[00:20:45]  Yeah.
[00:20:45]  So anyway, she was seated there.
[00:20:48]  And the funny thing is, that day, when I, my first day at work, also, Katie Ford, who owns Ford Modeling, was there meeting with Gilan.
[00:20:57]  I am not shocked at hearing that.
[00:21:00]  Yeah.
[00:21:00]  Yeah.
[00:21:01]  And she was used by Gilan as somebody who would lure Annie in.
[00:21:05]  Like, oh, well, we'll use Katie Ford modeling agency.
[00:21:08]  The Ford Modeling Agency will hire Annie.
[00:21:10]  If not, she said this.
[00:21:11]  If not, my friend, my friend Harvey can get her into movies.
[00:21:16]  Yeah.
[00:21:18]  And this is, so for listeners.
[00:21:19]  This is in 1995.
[00:21:21]  Annie's your sister.
[00:21:22]  Annie Farmer is my sister.
[00:21:24]  And she's, she's, she's quite a bit younger.
[00:21:26]  She's not quite a bit, but she's younger.
[00:21:27]  She's 10 years younger than me.
[00:21:29]  Okay.
[00:21:29]  Yes.
[00:21:29]  She was.
[00:21:30]  Yeah.
[00:21:30]  That's why this all happened because they found out I had, okay, so that first day he asked me about my family in the interview.
[00:21:37]  And he wanted to know if I had any siblings and all about them.
[00:21:40]  He wanted to know.
[00:21:40]  And I told him I wasn't close to my father.
[00:21:42]  He wasn't financially supportive.
[00:21:45]  And so he said, all right, well, you're hired.
[00:21:47]  God, music to his fucking ears.
[00:21:50]  Yeah.
[00:21:52]  So what did he hire you for?
[00:21:54]  Okay.
[00:21:54]  So he said, I would like for you to be getting artwork for people.
[00:21:59]  I mean, for my house, for all my properties.
[00:22:01]  So you'll be acquiring artwork.
[00:22:03]  And I thought it was great because there's this guy, Damian Logue.
[00:22:05]  He's still an amazing artist, but he's like the coolest.
[00:22:08]  He was in the mod squad.
[00:22:09]  Like I kind of discovered him before he was discovered.
[00:22:12]  I feel like I knew him and we were friends and he lived in his storage unit, guys.
[00:22:16]  Like poor guy.
[00:22:17]  And he's talented and he sells his work for a lot of money.
[00:22:20]  Okay.
[00:22:21]  And I, so I went to his storage unit to get his painting and it was Little Miss Pink Tomato.
[00:22:26]  I'll never forget the name because it was like, this is so creepy now.
[00:22:29]  But I didn't know then.
[00:22:30]  So I just thought it was a phenomenal painting, but it was a child's beauty contest of like children and diapers, right?
[00:22:36]  And I didn't know like Epstein was a pedophile.
[00:22:40]  Why would I know that?
[00:22:40]  So I don't assume it.
[00:22:42]  Yeah.
[00:22:43]  And Damien said, you know, right now, this is my best painting.
[00:22:45]  And I agreed.
[00:22:46]  It was fabulous.
[00:22:47]  It just really captured like those cheesy, it was, it was making fun of beauty contests.
[00:22:53]  Little Miss Pink Tomato, you know, so he was a, he's a very clever artist.
[00:22:56]  And so there was also a guy named Chuck Boutish, who's like this phenomenal.
[00:23:00]  You have to look him up.
[00:23:01]  Chuck Boutish, he's phenomenal artist.
[00:23:04]  And I acquired so many of his pieces, like a hundred things.
[00:23:07]  And Epstein never paid these guys.
[00:23:10]  And I also got art from everybody I knew.
[00:23:13]  Like all these people had talent and they needed money.
[00:23:16]  And I was trying to match the people who needed the money, but the guy who had the money, right?
[00:23:23]  It was a great fit.
[00:23:24]  And I was so excited about the job.
[00:23:25]  I ran outside, called my mom from a payphone and said, I think this guy's like a savior.
[00:23:30]  He's going to help all these students.
[00:23:32]  And he really, you know, cares about education.
[00:23:34]  He even mentioned that he wants to help my sister.
[00:23:36]  And my mom's like, oh my gosh, Maria.
[00:23:39]  And, you know, it wasn't that weird for us because I had collectors.
[00:23:42]  Okay.
[00:23:43]  So, my first job in New York was this guy, John Paulson, who's the neatest guy in the world.
[00:23:49]  He's a billionaire, okay?
[00:23:50]  But he was the neatest man.
[00:23:52]  He was totally honorable and brilliant.
[00:23:55]  And he actually, I think Eileen Guggenheim wanted me to date him so that there would be favors for the Academy.
[00:24:01]  That didn't happen.
[00:24:01]  We became very good friends and he was so respectable.
[00:24:04]  And John Paulson helped me start a company called Tribeca Party Servers.
[00:24:08]  He was so cool.
[00:24:10]  So he was one of my best friends in New York.
[00:24:12]  And so it wasn't that unusual for me that.
[00:24:15]  Yeah, it's not.
[00:24:16]  Yeah.
[00:24:17]  It's, I know, I know that like in the art world, I mean, I can't even, you should see my handwriting, let alone a drawing I've ever made.
[00:24:26]  But I know in the art world, you know, I've had friends who got to, you know, not very successful, but sort of successful out here.
[00:24:33]  And basically, it's like the people who can buy the art are rich people.
[00:24:37]  Right.
[00:24:38]  And so it's not that weird for like someone who lives in their storage unit to be dealing with really rich people.
[00:24:44]  Right.
[00:24:44]  It's not.
[00:24:45]  That's exactly right.
[00:24:46]  Yeah.
[00:24:47]  And so you function as sort of like an art procurer for Epstein, which does sound like a dream job.
[00:24:55]  Yeah, it sounded like a dream job.
[00:24:56]  It didn't last more than three months because my friends weren't paid.
[00:25:00]  And I got very upset about this.
[00:25:01]  And so I tried to quit.
[00:25:03]  And he said, no, Because of Annie, I think.
[00:25:06]  No, Also, I think because of my art, because he wanted more of it.
[00:25:10]  He was stealing it, you know?
[00:25:12]  And so was Gilen.
[00:25:13]  They were stealing my art.
[00:25:14]  So I think that that was why he kept me around.
[00:25:18]  But he said, no, I have another job for you.
[00:25:19]  So he like created a job for me and he moved a big white desk into the 71st Street mansion that he said Wexner had just given him for a dollar.
[00:25:29]  And that was my job then was to watch that door.
[00:25:32]  So I could see like the ante maim stairs, I could see the elevator and I could see the front door all from this desk.
[00:25:38]  Oh, wow.
[00:25:38]  So you were, you, I, I read a little sort of mention that you had done this or that this was your job, I think in the New York Times article.
[00:25:46]  But so you were like, you were really like the person at the door there.
[00:25:50]  I have to give a shout out to Mike Baker, that guy from the New York Times.
[00:25:53]  He's the only one at the New York Times I like, but that guy is such a cool guy.
[00:25:56]  He's kind of an angel.
[00:25:58]  He's a great writer.
[00:25:59]  Yeah.
[00:25:59]  Sorry, no, that article on you and your sister was really great.
[00:26:04]  He's just a stud.
[00:26:05]  He really is.
[00:26:07]  So, so that, I mean, my God, that must have been, you must have seen a lot of people coming in out.
[00:26:12]  I saw a lot.
[00:26:13]  Yeah, I saw a lot.
[00:26:16]  Yeah, I did.
[00:26:18]  I didn't really know to ask here.
[00:26:21]  I mean, just what was it like?
[00:26:23]  Well, one day I asked Epstein because I didn't understand because, like I said, I had known JP, John Paulson, and he was this brilliant banker.
[00:26:32]  And this guy could like make money out of thin air.
[00:26:35]  And he worked 24/7.
[00:26:37]  He was the most dedicated person to work.
[00:26:39]  Like I remember he just really struck, you know, he just always worked.
[00:26:43]  And so, and then I have a friend, Jonathan Shaw in Chicago who works on the exchange and he just works all the time.
[00:26:50]  And so I was like, these people are always working.
[00:26:53]  Why does Jeffrey Epstein never work if he's in finance?
[00:26:57]  That is a question as old as time itself.
[00:27:00]  Why didn't he work?
[00:27:02]  Right.
[00:27:03]  Yeah.
[00:27:03]  And it seems like even reporters now are still grappling with that question.
[00:27:08]  Yeah.
[00:27:08]  So I know why he didn't work.
[00:27:10]  He didn't.
[00:27:11]  He just got all of his money from one person.
[00:27:13]  But that's okay.
[00:27:14]  So he was, I mean, not okay, but he was upstairs all the time.
[00:27:17]  So I said, can you please explain to me if you're in finance, why you're always upstairs?
[00:27:22]  And he goes, oh, I'll show you.
[00:27:23]  And he takes me up there.
[00:27:25]  He's kind of clueless, guys.
[00:27:26]  So he takes me up there.
[00:27:28]  And I remember we walked because it was like a lot of flights.
[00:27:31]  And we get up there and he leads me to like a marble room.
[00:27:35]  It's gray and white, Italian marble.
[00:27:37]  And there's an altar in there.
[00:27:38]  He goes, I get my massages over here.
[00:27:41]  No.
[00:27:41]  It's like a massage altar.
[00:27:43]  And then I'm like, what do you do all day, Jeffrey?
[00:27:45]  And he goes, I have to get at least three massages a day, Maria.
[00:27:50]  Yeah, we've heard that is extremely creepy.
[00:27:54]  Also, it's just like to somebody who doesn't know what's, you know, if somebody who I didn't know was a serial sex predator told that to me and I was supposed to take it at face value that they really got three massages a day, that is still insanely weird.
[00:28:08]  It is very odd.
[00:28:10]  Like, unless you have a serious health problem with circulation or something.
[00:28:14]  Like, why do you need people moving your blood around all day?
[00:28:16]  I don't understand.
[00:28:17]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:17]  Also, it's just, that takes a lot of time out of your day as well.
[00:28:20]  Right.
[00:28:22]  Did you see like Miss what we what Jeffrey would call, I guess, masseuse coming in and out?
[00:28:29]  Okay.
[00:28:29]  So the only time I actually met a masseuse, an actual masseuse, was one of these women that Jeffrey kept for whatever reason.
[00:28:36]  And she was in on it.
[00:28:37]  And she was a creep.
[00:28:38]  Yeah.
[00:28:38]  And he sent me to her one time.
[00:28:40]  He bought her an apartment on the Upper East Side, but it was like a real dump, like dangerous to get there.
[00:28:46]  It's really far up.
[00:28:47]  And at the time, it was like the most dangerous neighborhood.
[00:28:50]  It was like Spanish Harlem or something.
[00:28:52]  And she was like so proud of this apartment.
[00:28:54]  And she said he would just do anything for me.
[00:28:56]  I'm like, he lets you live here?
[00:28:57]  You know, it's dangerous.
[00:28:59]  And she, so she starts giving me a creepy kind of massage and telling me how I'm not a good person.
[00:29:06]  It was part of, it was like a planned thing.
[00:29:08]  I'm not a good person.
[00:29:09]  And my skin is telling everyone this because I have all these weird thoughts.
[00:29:13]  And I'm like, what is this lady?
[00:29:16]  Yeah, it was bizarre.
[00:29:17]  So I was like, I don't like her.
[00:29:20]  And I told Jeffrey, I said, don't you ever make me go to her again.
[00:29:23]  He said, okay, don't worry about it.
[00:29:25]  So I, that's the only massage, actual massage therapist I ever met in association with him.
[00:29:31]  But he had children come in.
[00:29:32]  Guillain had children come in all day.
[00:29:35]  And when I asked, she said, these are Victoria's secret models, Maria.
[00:29:38]  Let's pause here for a second and talk a little bit about Ghilane and these the model scouting that she was doing.
[00:29:46]  It seems like out of the apartment, correct?
[00:29:49]  Yeah, it was really disturbing.
[00:29:51]  So I'll tell you one time she had me go to her apartment with her because she was trying to like procure someone and she was trying to get me.
[00:29:59]  Now, this girl, I remember she was 19.

=== Model Scouting Shenanigans (03:39) ===

[00:30:02]  And I remember because I asked her.
[00:30:04]  And she didn't look super young, but she looked a lot like the other victims with super flat chest and blonde hair.
[00:30:11]  And apparently Gilen said Jeffrey had seen her in Central Park.
[00:30:14]  And so she had exchanged phone numbers with her.
[00:30:16]  And so, but I saw Gilen doing this as well.
[00:30:19]  But I want to tell this story because it's so creepy.
[00:30:21]  So I get there and there's a drawing of mine on the wall.
[00:30:25]  And I'm like, where'd you get that?
[00:30:26]  And she goes, oh, I got it at your apartment, my studio.
[00:30:29]  And I'm like, okay, forget it.
[00:30:31]  So we sit down and she's telling me that I need to convince this girl of how amazing they've been to me.
[00:30:37]  So she goes to the kitchen to make a spot of tea.
[00:30:40]  And I'm like, answer the door.
[00:30:41]  And the girl's talking to me.
[00:30:42]  And I'm like, I just want to tell you they never really pay me.
[00:30:45]  You know, like I'm having a hard time with these people.
[00:30:47]  And I warned her and she didn't stay.
[00:30:50]  Right.
[00:30:51]  So Gilen somehow knew.
[00:30:53]  I don't know if the girl told her.
[00:30:54]  I don't know.
[00:30:55]  But then Gilan somehow knew because when Gilan was in there, I tried really hard.
[00:30:58]  I was like, oh, gosh, they're amazing.
[00:31:00]  Yes, they've done so much for me.
[00:31:01]  And I'm going, no, they don't pay me, you know, but she basically didn't use me again for that purpose, obviously.
[00:31:07]  But she did let me go with her all the time in the car.
[00:31:10]  And she would go, stop the car.
[00:31:12]  And seriously, like driving by schools, she would stop the car and go give a phone number.
[00:31:18]  You know, this is before cell phones, really.
[00:31:19]  I mean, she had one, but it was like huge.
[00:31:21]  But everybody, she would give like paper to the child, you know, and get a paper back.
[00:31:27]  And she would have their phone number.
[00:31:28]  They would exchange numbers.
[00:31:30]  And this went on all the time.
[00:31:31]  Yeah.
[00:31:32]  And I was telling people that like Avana Trump would go on these drives with her.
[00:31:35]  Did Avana Trump know what was going on?
[00:31:39]  Wow.
[00:31:39]  Yeah.
[00:31:40]  I that's, I hadn't heard that before.
[00:31:43]  Well, Ivana was very good friends with Gilen Maxwell.
[00:31:46]  Very, very good friends.
[00:31:48]  I wish she could explain herself.
[00:31:51]  Well, I think, I think basically everybody, from what I gather, basically anybody who hasn't been like named already.
[00:31:59]  Well, they're not about to out themselves.
[00:32:03]  No, they're not.
[00:32:04]  I mean, you know, we saw, we saw that those that struggle to get that other testimony released, those other depositions released because they name names.
[00:32:12]  I feel like many people have some invested interest in not.
[00:32:17]  Well, I can tell you this.
[00:32:18]  Bernie Sanders wasn't in the book, the black book, but Donald Trump sure is.
[00:32:23]  Yes.
[00:32:24]  Wonder who I want to vote for.
[00:32:25]  I've been saying that.
[00:32:26]  Exactly.
[00:32:27]  He's the only candidate, by the way, because he never raped anybody.
[00:32:30]  He's also an amazing guy.
[00:32:33]  We are huge fans.
[00:32:34]  We love.
[00:32:34]  Yeah.
[00:32:35]  Sorry.
[00:32:35]  I love him so much.
[00:32:36]  I just had to give a shout out.
[00:32:40]  I met him about eight months ago.
[00:32:42]  Oh my gosh.
[00:32:43]  That's my sister's dream.
[00:32:44]  Yeah.
[00:32:45]  Yeah.
[00:32:45]  He was a lot taller than me.
[00:32:47]  He's so sweet.
[00:32:48]  He is tall.
[00:32:49]  Yeah.
[00:32:50]  He's a huncher.
[00:32:51]  He hunches.
[00:32:52]  Well, he's old, but when I got in, he walked in.
[00:32:56]  Yeah, I'll tell you about it.
[00:32:57]  Every one of my boyfriends, he reminds me of every one of my boyfriend's dads.
[00:33:00]  Like, seriously, they were always like these brilliant, academic, like, you know, professorial, just adorable men.
[00:33:06]  And that's what he reminds me of.
[00:33:07]  And I was like, I'm voting for him.
[00:33:09]  And then.
[00:33:11]  So, so you worked at this job for like a few months, you were saying?
[00:33:16]  Yes.
[00:33:18]  So that the job at the desk, that was a long time.
[00:33:22]  I sat there.
[00:33:23]  Oh, almost, almost like a year.
[00:33:24]  Well, a cow, like a school year, right?
[00:33:26]  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:33:27]  Yeah.
[00:33:28]  And I saw kind of creepy things happen there.
[00:33:33]  Definitely.
[00:33:33]  Like, I was disturbed because a little girl came down crying and she had on a school uniform.
[00:33:38]  And I, um, I asked Gilan what happened.

=== Joan's Creepy Parties (04:48) ===

[00:33:41]  And she was like, well, she didn't get the job.
[00:33:44]  She has to just toughen up.
[00:33:45]  You know, if you're going to be in the modeling world, you have to toughen up.
[00:33:48]  And I'm like, are models usually 14?
[00:33:50]  You know, she had on braces.
[00:33:52]  I'm like, are they usually that young?
[00:33:53]  And she's like, well, for Victoria's Secret, they are.
[00:33:56]  And I'm thinking, no, they're not.
[00:33:57]  They have boobs, you know?
[00:33:59]  But at the same time, these are the people that work for Les Wexner.
[00:34:03]  So who am I to doubt them?
[00:34:04]  Right.
[00:34:05]  Exactly.
[00:34:06]  Yeah.
[00:34:08]  And it seems too, like, I mean, Gillian, like we mentioned, you said a lot of famous people.
[00:34:12]  She was a real fixture in the New York society scene.
[00:34:16]  So I can only imagine the kind of people that she would bring in and out of that house.
[00:34:20]  I mean, there's lots of stories.
[00:34:23]  And I'm not trying to say like name some names.
[00:34:25]  It's not about that.
[00:34:26]  But just to, I just want to like, like we were kind of saying earlier, try to paint the most robust portrait we can of this woman.
[00:34:34]  Right.
[00:34:34]  Well, I do want to say one thing.
[00:34:36]  There are some people that were around her that I know were not nefarious.
[00:34:40]  And one of them was Joan Rivers.
[00:34:41]  And I know this girl.
[00:34:42]  Oh, bless her.
[00:34:43]  God, I loved her.
[00:34:44]  Okay.
[00:34:44]  I'll tell you something.
[00:34:46]  She did not, she only saw the charming side of Gilan, but Joan Rivers was a good, good egg, man.
[00:34:51]  She had nothing to do with any of this.
[00:34:53]  But the reason I'm mentioning her is because she also fell prey to that charm.
[00:34:57]  And she had no idea what was happening.
[00:34:59]  But I went on some drives with her and she was so nice and funny.
[00:35:03]  And I would watch her two Yorkies, my Yorkie and Gilan's Yorkie, while they would go shopping.
[00:35:08]  But then Joan Rivers would always share and be really, you know, she was just like a good person.
[00:35:12]  So there were some people in their orbit, very few, very few, that were good people and didn't really know what was going on.
[00:35:20]  No, she had no idea.
[00:35:21]  No.
[00:35:21]  Yeah, because I can imagine Joan Rivers does not strike me.
[00:35:24]  She would not have put up with that shit.
[00:35:25]  No.
[00:35:26]  Can't judge by your gut feeling, but Joan Rivers does not strike me as a pedophile.
[00:35:31]  No, God, no.
[00:35:32]  No, she was an adorable woman.
[00:35:33]  She was hilarious.
[00:35:35]  Like everything she said was actually funny.
[00:35:37]  So, yeah.
[00:35:40]  Would Gillian be throwing any parties around this time at the house?
[00:35:45]  I feel like we'd read about so many kind of like extravagant dinner parties that she would dream up.
[00:35:54]  Yeah.
[00:35:55]  So not at that era.
[00:35:56]  She didn't have her big dinner parties yet.
[00:35:59]  But she definitely had parties for President Clinton.
[00:36:03]  And the only reason I know this is because she would go into a flipping Tizzy when he was getting ready to come.
[00:36:09]  And Chef Andy, who just died, unfortunately, and Andy Stewart was very good friends with him.
[00:36:15]  And I wish I'd stayed friends with him because he knew everything.
[00:36:18]  I called him the holy grail of this case.
[00:36:20]  He saw it all.
[00:36:21]  I think that's what scared him and he ran away.
[00:36:24]  You know, but I don't think he was complicit, but he never said anything.
[00:36:28]  And I actually slapped him.
[00:36:30]  I slapped him when I said goodbye to him, which really hurt because he was a good friend.
[00:36:34]  Andy Stewart was kind of a good guy, but I don't know how he let this go on.
[00:36:38]  I don't understand it.
[00:36:39]  Fear?
[00:36:40]  I don't know.
[00:36:41]  It's hard to say.
[00:36:42]  Maybe fear.
[00:36:42]  Maybe they threatened his life.
[00:36:44]  You know, they could have threatened his family's lives, but they did all that with me.
[00:36:47]  And I still did it.
[00:36:48]  And I feel like, why am I the only damn person who had courage?
[00:36:51]  And not only courage, but just I was furious.
[00:36:54]  Why am I the only person who was mad about it?
[00:36:57]  And yeah, so I just don't understand that.
[00:37:00]  But yeah, they were, there were Bill Clinton definitely came on three occasions.
[00:37:04]  And I can only tell you because Andy promised me he was there.
[00:37:07]  And he said, I've got to prepare because the president's coming.
[00:37:11]  And everybody had to leave the house.
[00:37:13]  I was always the last to go because I was at the desk, but everyone had to leave except two of the maids and Andy, who he prepared the food.
[00:37:20]  And she would say, the president's coming, the president's coming.
[00:37:23]  And she would get so excited.
[00:37:24]  And Gillan would always brag about how much Bill Clinton loved her.
[00:37:27]  So I hate to tell people, but Bill Clinton and Donald Trump are sleazebacks.
[00:37:31]  Not surprised.
[00:37:32]  I know the 2016.
[00:37:34]  Bernie isn't.
[00:37:35]  Yes.
[00:37:37]  I don't think that any of our listeners would disagree with both Trump and Clinton being sleazed.
[00:37:44]  So, I mean, did you interact?
[00:37:46]  I mean, we'll move on in a sec, but just one thing about this is, did you interact much with Epstein around this time?
[00:37:51]  Like, did you see?
[00:37:52]  Oh, gosh, yes.
[00:37:53]  Yes, constantly.
[00:37:54]  Yeah.
[00:37:55]  And yeah, I was around him a lot.
[00:37:57]  And just when he wasn't upstairs, you know, when he was upstairs, I wasn't around him.
[00:38:01]  I was around her more, but I was around him every day for at least a couple hours, you know?
[00:38:06]  And what was so weird about these people is that they didn't have friends.
[00:38:12]  I don't understand this.
[00:38:13]  Like, they would tell me things you tell your friends, right?
[00:38:16]  Yes.
[00:38:17]  So my boyfriend at the time, Jeff Mendelssohn, they would like invite us so that they could talk to us.
[00:38:23]  Like we were their friends.
[00:38:24]  Like he's like, Maria, these people are weird.
[00:38:26]  They're not, they don't have any friends.

=== Terrible Haircut Experience (02:49) ===

[00:38:30]  I remember they made Jeff Mendelson take photos of me with Gilan's hair.
[00:38:36]  They took me to, it was either, so several times they sent me to Frederick Fakay, and they would send people to Bumble and Bumble these places.
[00:38:43]  And everybody at those hair salons knew what was happening because they would go in and they'd say, Is she getting the Gilan?
[00:38:50]  Yeah.
[00:38:51]  And so I got the Gilan haircut.
[00:38:53]  And I came home, my boyfriend's like, What happened?
[00:38:56]  No.
[00:38:58]  haircut that was so outdated, right?
[00:39:00]  I'm sure you, I'm sure you looked beautiful, Marie.
[00:39:02]  I had like a mullet.
[00:39:03]  I have to say, the Ghilane is a terrible haircut.
[00:39:06]  It is a hair, terrible haircut in my garber's license from Wexner's estate.
[00:39:10]  It looks like I have a mullet because the Gilan was growing out.
[00:39:13]  Yeah.
[00:39:14]  I can also just so imagine her being like, this will be like the next Rachel.
[00:39:19]  And it's like, oh, yes, yes.
[00:39:20]  No, this is not going to be.
[00:39:22]  It's never going to be.
[00:39:22]  No, it's not going to be.
[00:39:23]  Not a good look.
[00:39:24]  Not a good look.
[00:39:25]  No.
[00:39:26]  No.
[00:39:28]  So when did you first you mentioned you'd been on Jeffrey's plane a couple times, the Lolian Express?
[00:39:35]  Yeah.
[00:39:35]  Did you take that to Ohio?
[00:39:38]  No, I never took it to Ohio.
[00:39:39]  I only took it to Florida with Andy Stewart was on the plane with us two of the times.
[00:39:45]  The two pilots and Gilan and Jeffrey.
[00:39:48]  And that was it.
[00:39:49]  To the Palm Beach estate?
[00:39:51]  Yes.
[00:39:51]  Yeah.
[00:39:52]  What was that place?
[00:39:53]  Like it was very, okay.
[00:39:55]  First of all, it had been Wexner's also.
[00:39:58]  Oh my God, it was a dream house.
[00:40:00]  Like, imagine when you drive down that road in Palm Beach and you see those mansions.
[00:40:05]  Right.
[00:40:05]  So you think, I'm never going to be able to go in one of those.
[00:40:08]  And you pull in and it's just got that spectacular, like Florida, Palm Beach feeling.
[00:40:13]  And I had never been anywhere like that.
[00:40:15]  You know, I just never seen a house like that.
[00:40:17]  And I can imagine how Virginia felt the first time she was a child.
[00:40:20]  Recourting, you know, it's so, it was so impressive, guys.
[00:40:23]  A poor child, Jesus.
[00:40:25]  Yeah.
[00:40:26]  But then you go in.
[00:40:27]  Well, I grew up very wealthy, but I didn't have money at the time.
[00:40:31]  No, but I was saying, like, even I was impressed.
[00:40:33]  Like, I mean, of course I was.
[00:40:34]  We didn't grow up with like in Palm Beach, you know.
[00:40:36]  Yeah.
[00:40:37]  But I'm saying I wasn't poor, but that was so impressive.
[00:40:41]  I was poor at the time, though, when I was working for them.
[00:40:43]  I've been poor since.
[00:40:44]  But basically, but basically, the house had again, because it had been decorated by Wexner, he's very poor taste.
[00:40:54]  And this French decorator always does the decor.
[00:40:57]  So everything had big shag carpeting, which in Florida is not a good look.
[00:41:02]  It was so dirty, right?
[00:41:03]  So muggy.
[00:41:04]  Yeah, it was so yucky.
[00:41:06]  And then it was like peach colored.
[00:41:09]  Everything was peach.
[00:41:10]  And then you go down this long hallway with like palm tree wallpaper.
[00:41:14]  And then there's all these photos of nudes plus nudes of Gilan, which nobody wants to see.
[00:41:18]  Like you can't unsee it.

=== A Room with a Sex Swing (04:07) ===

[00:41:20]  It's not even.
[00:41:21]  Yeah, that was, I did.
[00:41:22]  I wanted to ask about that.
[00:41:24]  That, like, just there's a couple images out there, just all the photos that were there, and there being so many photos of Gillene everywhere raises some questions.
[00:41:35]  Oh, yeah, she was really into herself.
[00:41:37]  I don't get it.
[00:41:38]  I don't, I don't really know why, but I know that at that point, she also took me to a room, which was like an educational experience because it was there was a sex swing in the middle of the room.
[00:41:49]  I didn't know what it was, and there were also these leather straps.
[00:41:52]  I swear to you, she said, I can hang upside down for 45 minutes like a bat, it really helps my skin.
[00:41:58]  And I was like, Oh my gosh, first of all, and then I go, What is that thing?
[00:42:01]  It was like this big black thing hanging in the middle of the room.
[00:42:04]  She's like, Oh, honey, that's a sex swing.
[00:42:06]  She just thought that was hilarious that I would ask.
[00:42:09]  It's it's first of all, if she was doing that, that thing, I would hate to see her skin before she did that because she had terrible skin.
[00:42:19]  I know she didn't age well, but that's yeah, yeah, yeah, after like age 20.
[00:42:24]  Um, I'm beat, I'm beat.
[00:42:25]  Actually, you know what?
[00:42:26]  It's Gillette Maxwell.
[00:42:27]  Fuck her.
[00:42:28]  Um, but but that's that's that match is so much up with like what I've heard about uh the way people describe her is because she thinks it's like the most outrageous thing in the world to like say something like, Oh, look, here's a little vibrator like somebody.
[00:42:43]  Like, that's her sense of it's like, it's like uh, Porky's, yes, Porky's part three or something.
[00:42:50]  Exactly, yeah, yeah, it's so weird.
[00:42:53]  What is their relationship like?
[00:42:55]  Because there's been so much speculated, right?
[00:42:58]  So, I can tell you right now when I called, I'm gonna say this part: I called when I told the FBI about them, I told them that she was kind of like his handler or something.
[00:43:10]  That's what it felt like, and I don't know where that came from because I don't know these words.
[00:43:15]  I was like, Where does this coming from?
[00:43:16]  I also told them they were mafia, um, and they were.
[00:43:20]  And I didn't, I don't know how I knew, I just kind of knew that people don't normally live like this and act like this.
[00:43:24]  So, here's how their relationship was: she was the quote-unquote lady of the house.
[00:43:29]  She made all the demands, and it was good cop, bad cop 24/7.
[00:43:34]  So, she would eviscerate someone, and then he would come in.
[00:43:37]  Like, you asked how much I encountered him.
[00:43:39]  He would come in when she made me cry, and he would pat me on the back and be really loving and tell me that it was okay.
[00:43:45]  And that, uh, you know, like you said about that bitch, Barbara Guggenheim, like I'm sorry you had to work for her.
[00:43:50]  Like, he was always the good cop, Jeffrey always swept in.
[00:43:54]  And Gilen did have like a horrible, horrible temper, like, I mean, just a hair trigger temper.
[00:43:59]  And she was so unkind.
[00:44:01]  Like, she did, she thinks that a lot of these people think that they're like two classes and they're in the upper class, and we're all beneath them.
[00:44:10]  And I don't see things that way.
[00:44:11]  So, it's so confusing to me.
[00:44:12]  And I kept trying to forgive them and think, I mean, not forgive them, but kept trying to like overlook this, right?
[00:44:18]  Justify it.
[00:44:19]  Yeah.
[00:44:19]  Justify it.
[00:44:20]  Thank you.
[00:44:21]  Thank you.
[00:44:22]  Yeah.
[00:44:22]  And it just, that's fascinating.
[00:44:24]  Yeah.
[00:44:25]  I, it, it seems like classic manipulative abusive behavior to have that kind of dual relationship you can play off of, um, you know, each one filling their role to kind of, you know.
[00:44:42]  Yeah.
[00:44:42]  And she was the intelligent one.
[00:44:44]  Was.
[00:44:45]  Was.
[00:44:45]  I saw her UN lecture.
[00:44:47]  My God, she's like, I don't know what kind of drugs she's taking.
[00:44:50]  And she has down so badly.
[00:44:52]  I'm like, I want to laugh the shrooming, you know, something's happened.
[00:44:55]  She's amazing.
[00:44:56]  I'm just teasing.
[00:44:57]  I don't know what she's doing.
[00:44:58]  Something has happened to her where I swear to you guys, she was so intelligent and charming.
[00:45:02]  And I saw her UN speech and she was just pathetic.
[00:45:06]  And it's like all of her vocabulary has left her mind.
[00:45:10]  And she's, yeah.
[00:45:12]  I don't know.
[00:45:13]  I mean, yeah, God, it's, it's, she does, I don't know, as a dumb guy, she does seem like a moron.
[00:45:20]  But from what I gather, she was pretty sharp when she was younger.
[00:45:24]  Yeah, she was very, very intelligent, very well educated.

=== Abigail's Transformation (15:29) ===

[00:45:27]  So you would go to the Palm Beach house just for like weekends or would you go and would you go with others?
[00:45:34]  Okay, so I'm going to tell you guys a really weird story.
[00:45:36]  Yeah.
[00:45:37]  So the last time I went there and this, okay, the last time I went there, I think that they would invite me to answer your question because they didn't have friends.
[00:45:46]  I know that sounds really weird, but they had to have their servants be their friends.
[00:45:50]  And it was like, everybody would say to me, like, why do you think all these weird people had you at the dinner table?
[00:45:56]  Because it was like, I was the servant, but I also got to eat at the dinner table because I was an artist.
[00:46:01]  So, you know, it's like, it's like they were the Pope and I was Michelangelo.
[00:46:04]  So I was their servant, but I was also invited to eat with them.
[00:46:08]  It was very bizarre.
[00:46:09]  So they would take me on these vacations, quote unquote.
[00:46:13]  And it was just miserable because I never got to do what I wanted to do.
[00:46:16]  And I had to do exactly what they wanted to do.
[00:46:18]  But the last day I was there, I was kind of hoping to like listen to Jimmy Buffett play because he lived next door.
[00:46:24]  I was like, maybe y'all hear, I'm not a big fan, but I was like, maybe I'll hear him.
[00:46:27]  Yeah.
[00:46:28]  Weird things about him.
[00:46:29]  Florida.
[00:46:30]  Yeah.
[00:46:31]  He lived next door.
[00:46:32]  You know, so I'm like trying to look over the cement fence.
[00:46:34]  I'm like, oh man.
[00:46:36]  So anyway, these birds are constantly making noise and the birds are going.
[00:46:41]  I mean, like really loud noises, right?
[00:46:43]  But they're saying really, really vulgar things.
[00:46:45]  And so as we're leaving, Gilan and Jeffrey say, see these two macaws, Maria?
[00:46:50]  They're yours now.
[00:46:52]  So the birds, their two favorite words were F you and a lot of really bad words.
[00:46:59]  They said the C word a lot.
[00:47:01]  And so this is funny, but I had to take those birds that in their 200 square foot cage.
[00:47:07]  Andy Stewart brought it to my apartment in New York.
[00:47:09]  I only had a 500 square foot apartment.
[00:47:11]  Wait, what?
[00:47:12]  Toilet, toilet down the hall.
[00:47:13]  You know, I lived like in a tenement.
[00:47:15]  And so they take the cage takes up the whole painting studio.
[00:47:18]  So I call my boyfriend Jeffrey Mendelson and I'm sobbing.
[00:47:22]  I'm like, I can't paint in here now.
[00:47:24]  So he comes and heroically, he gets these macaws to his apartment.
[00:47:28]  And he's in a rent.
[00:47:29]  He's in a place like he owns his apartment in Greenwich Village at the time.
[00:47:33]  And it was a co-op.
[00:47:35]  So the co-op board hears F you all day long.
[00:47:38]  Oh, no.
[00:47:39]  And so they're getting ready to get rid of him.
[00:47:42]  So guess what, guys?
[00:47:43]  We donate those two macaws to a bird sanctuary in Hawaii.
[00:47:46]  Oh.
[00:47:46]  Okay.
[00:47:47]  Well, that's cars saying, can't you see the old ladies?
[00:47:49]  Well, fuck you too, Nancy.
[00:47:52]  You know, they're walking through and they're mad at each other because they think, but that's what they said.
[00:47:58]  That's what they said.
[00:48:00]  I will say that that is such, that is almost a Seinfeldian disaster to befall.
[00:48:09]  I'm totally Elaine when I dang.
[00:48:11]  Yeah.
[00:48:12]  Yeah.
[00:48:13]  To have a rich guy make you take a 200 foot square macaw cage to your tenement apartment.
[00:48:18]  And the two macaws.
[00:48:20]  Yeah, they were in the rooms.
[00:48:22]  And I had a little Yorkshire Terrier and I was so afraid she was going to be eaten or that my fingers would be gone or something.
[00:48:28]  You know, I couldn't touch the birds.
[00:48:29]  I was just so terrified.
[00:48:31]  So of course my boyfriend saved the day on that one.
[00:48:34]  Ladies, listen to that.
[00:48:35]  We love boyfriends.
[00:48:37]  Oh boy.
[00:48:39]  He did, though.
[00:48:40]  He really did save the day on that one.
[00:48:43]  So a little bit after this, you are offered a job in Ohio.
[00:48:49]  Right.
[00:48:50]  Right.
[00:48:50]  With one Leslie Wexner.
[00:48:52]  Had you encountered?
[00:48:53]  No, it wasn't with Les Wexner.
[00:48:54]  No, I never encountered him.
[00:48:55]  Never, never.
[00:48:56]  Still haven't encountered him.
[00:48:58]  So this is what happened.
[00:48:59]  It wasn't for Les Wexner.
[00:49:01]  I got a really good gig doing a painting, a couple paintings for the movie As Good As It Gets.
[00:49:06]  You guys probably weren't even born when that movie was out.
[00:49:08]  No, no, that movie.
[00:49:09]  I did that movie.
[00:49:10]  So James Brooks, I'm a huge fan, right?
[00:49:12]  And so Eric Fischel can't do this project.
[00:49:15]  So he, so Jim Brooks calls me and he's like, I got a great recommendation.
[00:49:18]  I love your art.
[00:49:19]  You're in.
[00:49:20]  You've got the job.
[00:49:21]  So I tell Jeffrey and Geeland I'm going to quit.
[00:49:23]  I'm like, you know what?
[00:49:24]  I just kind of want to quit.
[00:49:25]  And they go, no, So they never let me quit again.
[00:49:28]  And they said, no, no, we found, we've spoken to Abigail Wexner and she wants you as an artist in residence at her house.
[00:49:36]  She's be so honored.
[00:49:37]  They own Wexner School of the Arts because I'm like, who is this guy?
[00:49:40]  The guy that gave you the house for a dollar?
[00:49:41]  I'm like, do you think you'd buy a painting?
[00:49:43]  And they're like, oh, gosh, yes.
[00:49:44]  They're huge art collectors.
[00:49:46]  They own Picasso's.
[00:49:47]  Yeah, you should definitely go there.
[00:49:49]  And I was like, oh, they sound so cool.
[00:49:50]  They founded an art school.
[00:49:52]  That's amazing, right?
[00:49:53]  Or they funded it.
[00:49:55]  So I go there in this old writer truck with all my art supplies.
[00:50:01]  And I'm going to backtrack to say that when I returned, my apartment had been painted black by the butler who died in prison from the black book.
[00:50:10]  That guy, his son, his son lived in my apartment.
[00:50:13]  They leased it out to him.
[00:50:14]  Like Jeffrey and Guidelan, like made money on my apartment in Greenwich Village, my tenement.
[00:50:20]  They charged him and he painted the whole thing black and threw away all my antiques, like everything I owned, right?
[00:50:26]  So yeah.
[00:50:27]  But anyway, so nothing ever worked out with these people.
[00:50:30]  But I go to this estate in Ohio thinking, well, maybe this time these people will help.
[00:50:36]  And I get there and I'm greeted by this guy, Randy Bowie.
[00:50:40]  And he's like this giant thug.
[00:50:42]  And he says, hey, I'm special for I thought he was really nice at first, but he says, I'm special forces and I'm Les Wexner's right-hand man.
[00:50:51]  And by the way, if you ever want to go outside again, you have to call and get our permission.
[00:50:55]  And I'm like, what?
[00:50:56]  All of a sudden, my stomach just sank.
[00:50:59]  And so I unload my rider truck and I get in the house.
[00:51:01]  And Gilan's like, I can see you're in the room.
[00:51:04]  I can see you're in the back room.
[00:51:06]  And it ends up the whole place is wired.
[00:51:08]  They can see everything from New York.
[00:51:10]  I heard what I had heard is basically these were rumors, but I've heard them from a couple of sources is that Leslie Wexner actually might have had Epstein.
[00:51:19]  Epstein was like a guy who, if you wanted your place wired with cameras, you would call him because he was so good at like, probably, I mean, I'm sure he wasn't doing it himself, but getting, you know, his guy to do it or whatever.
[00:51:30]  And so Wexner had everything wired.
[00:51:33]  Epstein told me that Wexner had everything wired before he ever moved into these places.
[00:51:39]  So he told me that they were like, he used the word outfitted.
[00:51:43]  And I was like, that's different.
[00:51:45]  And Gilan was so weird.
[00:51:47]  Like, she'd constantly point out, look, another pinned camera.
[00:51:50]  We can see you.
[00:51:50]  So it wasn't a secret.
[00:51:53]  And so anyway, I get there and immediately I know like, I'm not allowed to go outside.
[00:51:59]  I think I just find that the weirdest thing in the world.
[00:52:00]  So I'm immediately scared and depressed and worried.
[00:52:04]  So yeah, so I was also starved there.
[00:52:08]  And I found out later from Gilan that it was because she didn't want me to have breasts.
[00:52:11]  She was starving me.
[00:52:12]  So I would look like a nubile.
[00:52:14]  But she lied and said it was because I wasn't the right religion.
[00:52:17]  But it was really because she wanted me to look like a child and not a cop.
[00:52:21]  What do you mean you were, she was starving you?
[00:52:23]  I wasn't permitted to go get food.
[00:52:25]  I was on an estate that was surrounded by 330 acres.
[00:52:29]  Okay.
[00:52:29]  And I wasn't allowed to go outside unless I got Abigail or one of the guys' permission.
[00:52:35]  And so that rarely happened.
[00:52:37]  And the only times I was allowed to leave the estate, I had to have someone with me.
[00:52:40]  So I'd have Claire Hazel with me to leave.
[00:52:44]  She's another one.
[00:52:45]  She's married to a Guinness now.
[00:52:47]  Like they, she was Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend and she kind of was my supervisor, I guess, while I was there to make sure I behaved or something.
[00:52:56]  I don't know.
[00:52:57]  I mean, anyway, babysat me.
[00:52:59]  And Claire Hazel, she was kept, you know, at the school there and provided with credit cards.
[00:53:06]  And she was always talking to Guilen.
[00:53:08]  And Jeffrey and witnesses have come forward to tell me about it, that they saw it.
[00:53:12]  They went to my attorneys to say, yeah, Maria's not lying.
[00:53:14]  They also said Claire Hazel pointed out the sharpshooters in the bushes because he could see the laser beams.
[00:53:20]  So something about that real quick.
[00:53:22]  I want to pause.
[00:53:23]  I would love to.
[00:53:24]  I know somebody and spoken to somebody that has done, who's a subcontractor and worked on that property.
[00:53:34]  I don't know.
[00:53:35]  Well, I talked to him about this.
[00:53:37]  And he mentioned that there were guys.
[00:53:40]  walking around with AR-15s.
[00:53:43]  And he was.
[00:53:44]  I never saw that.
[00:53:45]  Yeah.
[00:53:45]  Or like that hat.
[00:53:46]  I mean, that's also the kind of rifle that you would use.
[00:53:49]  I mean, I never saw a rifle you'd use for sharpshooters.
[00:53:53]  Yeah, I never saw them.
[00:53:54]  I saw the Dobermans.
[00:53:56]  So the Dobermans one day, they told me, Randy Bowie said that.
[00:54:00]  Yeah.
[00:54:01]  It's like Randy Bowie says, Randy Bowie said there are Dobermans and sharpshooters outside.
[00:54:07]  So if you go out, you will die.
[00:54:09]  So you have to call first.
[00:54:10]  And I'm like, wait a minute.
[00:54:12]  What are you saying?
[00:54:13]  And he goes, you will die if you go outside.
[00:54:15]  So one day I thought, yeah, this is crap.
[00:54:18]  I'm going to actually just go outside with my dog.
[00:54:19]  I'm going to let her go to the bathroom and I'll be back.
[00:54:21]  And the Dobermans came.
[00:54:23]  And I was only 200 feet away from their property.
[00:54:25]  You know, I'm in the guest, the 26,000 square foot guest house.
[00:54:28]  And so, yeah, they just, the Dobermans came after me.
[00:54:32]  And so I had to go inside.
[00:54:33]  And then I never tried the sharpshooter thing.
[00:54:36]  Like, I never experimented.
[00:54:38]  Yeah.
[00:54:39]  I would say a good thing.
[00:54:41]  Yeah, I would say the confirmation of the Dobermans would serve to me as confirmation also of the sharpshooters.
[00:54:46]  Right.
[00:54:46]  Right.
[00:54:46]  And so, so you were on this giant estate.
[00:54:49]  I mean, I assume this place is palatial.
[00:54:51]  I looked obviously at pictures of it or read pictures.
[00:54:55]  And did you interact?
[00:54:56]  I mean, you were making art, but also, I assume, I mean, from what you get, from what I gather, you were pretty terrified.
[00:55:01]  Did you interact much with other people?
[00:55:03]  Like, was it, was it?
[00:55:05]  No.
[00:55:05]  So here's the thing.
[00:55:06]  I had my brothers there.
[00:55:08]  I have a stepmother that's like a really bad alcoholic.
[00:55:10]  And so my brothers growing up, I was so sad for them.
[00:55:12]  And so I would take them away in the summers so they wouldn't have to be exposed to this.
[00:55:17]  And so I had my five-year-old and 12-year-old brothers with me there.
[00:55:21]  Jeffrey and Guilam, you know, authorized for them to come there.
[00:55:26]  And so they kept me obviously from going crazy, but the problem was food.
[00:55:30]  We didn't have very much food.
[00:55:31]  And when Jeffrey and Gilam would come, I could take the truck that Jeffrey loaned me.
[00:55:36]  You know, I was allowed to go to the Walmart and get some food and stock up, but they ate a lot of candy.
[00:55:42]  What kind of candy?
[00:55:44]  Like a lot of sweet charts and marshmallows.
[00:55:48]  And just, they were just, it was a nightmare.
[00:55:50]  They were so hyped.
[00:55:51]  And I didn't want anything broken in the house.
[00:55:53]  I was so worried we'd be like fined or sued.
[00:55:56]  And one day, one day, get this.
[00:55:58]  One day I spill henna on the carpet.
[00:56:01]  And so I thought, you know, I know there are pen old cameras over there, but I'm just going to drag this little trash can over that spot of henna in the middle of the room.
[00:56:08]  And so I get a call from Guilam within seconds.
[00:56:11]  And she's in New York and she's screaming at me that Abigail Wexner is having a fit and I'm going to have to leave that property.
[00:56:17]  I'm going to ruin Jeffrey's job.
[00:56:19]  I'm going to ruin their connections.
[00:56:20]  I'm the worst person on earth because there's Hannah on the carpet.
[00:56:23]  And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to be dead for this henna.
[00:56:27]  You know, it's so, I can't even imagine also, you know, the constant knowing that she's looking at you.
[00:56:34]  Not even if she is the whole time, but just that constant threat.
[00:56:38]  I mean, that's.
[00:56:38]  I'm going to tell you what I did.
[00:56:39]  I spent a lot of time in the garage because there were no cameras in the garage.
[00:56:43]  So I painted most of my paintings in the garage.
[00:56:47]  I finally found out, I think it was through Randy Bowie, that I could also use the pool house.
[00:56:53]  And, but then I found out there were cameras in there.
[00:56:55]  So I went back to the garage.
[00:56:57]  Yeah.
[00:56:58]  So I found it.
[00:56:58]  So incredibly manipulative.
[00:57:00]  Yeah.
[00:57:01]  It was horrible.
[00:57:01]  It was horrible.
[00:57:02]  So abusive.
[00:57:03]  Yeah, it was.
[00:57:04]  It was abuse.
[00:57:05]  So you know what's amazing?
[00:57:06]  The Wexners pretend that they've never heard of me.
[00:57:09]  I find that really sickening, you know, and I'm not going to put up with that.
[00:57:12]  I'm sorry.
[00:57:13]  There's one, I feel like pretty definitive proof.
[00:57:16]  I mean, obviously.
[00:57:17]  My driver's license.
[00:57:18]  Yeah, obviously.
[00:57:19]  You're not lying.
[00:57:21]  But I feel like there is rarely do we get physical proof of something.
[00:57:25]  Right.
[00:57:26]  You have a driver's license.
[00:57:27]  I also have hundreds of photographs.
[00:57:29]  Yeah.
[00:57:30]  Yeah.
[00:57:30]  Well, there's that too, but you have a driver.
[00:57:32]  But I have the driver's license and it shows that I'm the one who was there.
[00:57:35]  And I also have the proof that my mail was delivered there for three months.
[00:57:38]  Yeah.
[00:57:39]  Yeah.
[00:57:39]  And all these people, like in the mainstream media, they always try to change the story.
[00:57:43]  I got to tell you, there's one guy that's amazing.
[00:57:45]  His name's Anthony Mason.
[00:57:46]  Shout out to he and Gail King.
[00:57:48]  They're like incredible, really supportive of the arts.
[00:57:50]  But most people in this situation have been very much interested in painting Wexner into a good guy and making him look innocent.
[00:57:58]  No.
[00:57:59]  Yeah.
[00:57:59]  No, That was the every time I told the story, nobody would tell it.
[00:58:05]  Nobody.
[00:58:06]  I've been telling it for a year.
[00:58:07]  I finally had to contact Whitney Webb.
[00:58:09]  I was like, this is crap.
[00:58:10]  It's never going to get out.
[00:58:11]  Yeah.
[00:58:12]  Yeah.
[00:58:12]  I have some questions about Abigail as well, to be honest.
[00:58:16]  Okay.
[00:58:17]  I never met them physically.
[00:58:18]  I met Abigail over the phone and she was so creepy.
[00:58:22]  She was so creepy.
[00:58:23]  So she was very phony and like, oh, welcome to the estate.
[00:58:27]  I'm so glad you're here.
[00:58:29]  Sorry you can't go outside.
[00:58:30]  You know, that kind of thing.
[00:58:32]  And then she demanded that I would, I mean, what kind of prima donna makes some artist who's not allowed to eat stay in the house all day and then demands that they call if they want to go outside.
[00:58:42]  Like, what kind of control freaks are these people?
[00:58:45]  Yeah.
[00:58:45]  It's that's that's what's really astounding about it because I mean, I'm sure they were like, oh, well, you know, it's a big property.
[00:58:52]  Leslie Wexner is a very rich man.
[00:58:54]  You know, you can't have people coming in and out.
[00:58:56]  But like, I mean, that's prison, basically.
[00:58:58]  It was, I was imprisoned.
[00:59:00]  I'm actually a little bit impatient with people about the COVID thing because I'm like, you listen to me.
[00:59:04]  This is not hosted for three months.
[00:59:07]  Like, you can't beat that, right?
[00:59:09]  I just don't want to hear about it.
[00:59:10]  I have cancer.
[00:59:10]  I don't care.
[00:59:11]  Yeah.
[00:59:12]  Yeah.
[00:59:12]  But I'm not very patient about it right now.
[00:59:15]  I can understand.
[00:59:17]  So at some point during this, Jeffrey and Gillage show up, correct?
[00:59:22]  Yes.
[00:59:23]  They came three times to visit.
[00:59:25]  Oh, this was the other thing.
[00:59:26]  Like Abigail and Leslie tried to say they weren't there when I was there.
[00:59:31]  But the problem is that Gilan and Jeffrey came, not for me.
[00:59:34]  They don't care about me.
[00:59:35]  They came to visit Wexner.
[00:59:37]  They had meetings.
[00:59:37]  Right.
[00:59:38]  Yeah.
[00:59:38]  So I know of the times that they came.
[00:59:40]  Yeah.
[00:59:41]  And the last one was the time of my assault.
[00:59:43]  Yeah.
[00:59:44]  the last time.
[01:00:04]  So do you want to walk us through what happened?
[01:00:08]  Sure.
[01:00:08]  It's miserable, but basically, I can't.
[01:00:12]  I just want to say, whatever you're comfortable, if you're not even worried about the truth is something you never forget.
[01:00:19]  And it's just important that people know the truth.
[01:00:22]  I kept it in too long.
[01:00:24]  And my thing is, I didn't need to keep their dirty secret.
[01:00:26]  They weren't my secrets to keep.
[01:00:28]  The FBI burdened me with that.
[01:00:31]  And that's really unfair, you know?
[01:00:33]  But basically, Gilan came to get me.
[01:00:35]  I was with my little brothers in our room and they had their own room, but we were hanging out together.
[01:00:40]  And they had just arrived.
[01:00:41]  They had just gotten back because they'd taken my brothers for the day to one of Wexner's like parks for driving, you know, like a bumper car park or something.
[01:00:51]  I don't know if it was part of the mall or where it was, but they had just come back from that.
[01:00:54]  And Gilan was like all giddy and happy.

=== Assaulted and Photographs Stolen (09:58) ===

[01:00:56]  She's like, I've always wanted little boys.
[01:00:58]  Oh, I'm so excited.
[01:00:59]  I feel like you're my family.
[01:01:01]  And she would make you feel so special.
[01:01:02]  And I would think, do you think these people aren't psychotic?
[01:01:05]  Maybe maybe I should forgive them, you know, like not forgive them, but just overlook it.
[01:01:09]  And so basically she came to get me and she was wearing a robe.
[01:01:13]  And I thought that was weird because I'd never seen her in a robe.
[01:01:15]  Well, I'd seen her in a robe getting pedicures.
[01:01:17]  She made her, okay, this is really weird.
[01:01:19]  She made these really nice ladies from the Philippines that they'd stolen give them pedicures all the time, like all day, Jeffrey, too.
[01:01:26]  And so I'd seen her wearing a robe for that in Palm Beach, but that was it.
[01:01:29]  I'd never otherwise seen her so informal.
[01:01:31]  She was very formal.
[01:01:33]  And so I go to, as opposed to Jeffrey, who was always in sweats, literally.
[01:01:38]  Famously.
[01:01:39]  I don't know any other people on Wall Street that wear sweats all day.
[01:01:42]  You know, I mean, he fucking thought, Jeffrey thought that if you just like stitched your initials on a pair of sweatpants, he dressed like a slob.
[01:01:50]  He wore slippers outside.
[01:01:52]  I know.
[01:01:53]  I know.
[01:01:54]  He was the most comfortable man.
[01:01:56]  Yeah, he was very comfortable getting all those massages.
[01:01:59]  Anyway, but so she comes to get me from my room.
[01:02:02]  And I wasn't allowed in Jeffrey's room ever because, and I knew they were watching me all the time.
[01:02:07]  So I never went in there.
[01:02:08]  And so I'm like, we have to go to Jeffrey's room.
[01:02:10]  I thought I wasn't allowed in there.
[01:02:11]  And she goes, no, no, no, come with me.
[01:02:13]  She goes, Jeffrey wants a foot massage.
[01:02:15]  And we were already in the room at this point.
[01:02:17]  And I'll never forget.
[01:02:18]  He's like lying down on the bed and his feet are like kind of crossed.
[01:02:23]  And he's got on socks.
[01:02:25]  And he asked me to take off his sock and rub his foot.
[01:02:28]  And it was gross.
[01:02:29]  It was like a dirty, gross foot.
[01:02:31]  And I had to touch it.
[01:02:33]  And I knew at that point, well, I just thought I was going to be raped at that point.
[01:02:36]  And so it was just a clear, it was just an instinct.
[01:02:40]  Like I was pretty sure I was going to be raped.
[01:02:41]  And so I just, you know, when I was little, I had this thing where I would have these recurring nightmares and I would have to befriend the monster in the nightmare to survive.
[01:02:50]  And so it felt exactly like my recurring nightmare from childhood.
[01:02:54]  And I thought, well, I just got to be nice and pretend.
[01:02:57]  So I didn't, I clearly wasn't into massaging his foot.
[01:03:01]  I was pretty grossed out.
[01:03:02]  And he was moaning like it was pleasurable or painful.
[01:03:06]  I couldn't tell.
[01:03:07]  And so I said, you know what?
[01:03:07]  I actually think I'm hurting you.
[01:03:09]  And he goes, here.
[01:03:10]  And he pats the bed and he wanted me to sit down beside him.
[01:03:13]  And he's on the side.
[01:03:14]  Like if you're facing the bed, he's on the far right.
[01:03:17]  And there's a TV right across from him.
[01:03:19]  And I'll never forget because the whole time I was being insulted, assaulted, there was a math show on.
[01:03:24]  And I have a math phobia.
[01:03:25]  Like, I hate math.
[01:03:26]  I'm not good at even telling time.
[01:03:28]  I can't even have time.
[01:03:29]  I'm like, oh my God, one, two, three, four, five.
[01:03:32]  Me too.
[01:03:33]  I'm the same exact way.
[01:03:34]  We are Sympatico.
[01:03:36]  Oh, that's awesome.
[01:03:37]  So yeah.
[01:03:39]  So anyway, he basically was like, you know, just lie down here.
[01:03:44]  And we're, and Gilan looks at me and she goes, Jeffrey's so smart.
[01:03:47]  And she sits next to me on the bed and she lies down.
[01:03:51]  And she goes, lean back, darling.
[01:03:52]  And she said, Jeffrey's so smart.
[01:03:55]  He listens to math on PBS.
[01:03:58]  And I'm like, oh my God, this is so bad.
[01:04:00]  So immediately they both like reach over and start grabbing me in the same way.
[01:04:05]  Like they're mirroring each other.
[01:04:06]  It was weird.
[01:04:07]  It was very bizarre.
[01:04:08]  And it was very mechanical and painful.
[01:04:11]  And it wasn't at all like something romantic or like, you know, anything where you could connect on any level.
[01:04:18]  And it was, it was also very scary because I had worked for these people for a year and I did not think they disrespected me like this.
[01:04:25]  And I didn't know this was what they did to their employees, right?
[01:04:29]  I knew they were weird, but I didn't know they were weird like this.
[01:04:33]  So I immediately zone out while I'm being assaulted and I'm looking at the ceiling and I'm thinking, oh my God, my sister was sent to Thailand by these people.
[01:04:46]  Wait a minute.
[01:04:47]  Was she raped by these people?
[01:04:48]  Wait a minute.
[01:04:49]  Is Annie dead?
[01:04:50]  And the whole time I'm thinking, oh my gosh, Annie's dead.
[01:04:53]  Annie's dead.
[01:04:55]  So I started crying.
[01:04:57]  At some point, I was able to get up, like pull my body up.
[01:05:00]  I was scared because I knew I'd blown my cover.
[01:05:02]  And Gilan's going, no, dear, don't be scared.
[01:05:06]  And I'm thinking, God, this is so creepy.
[01:05:08]  So I go into the bedroom where my brothers are.
[01:05:10]  I'm able to escape, you know, and I go and I run off and I'm acting like, okay, good night.
[01:05:15]  You guys are so great.
[01:05:16]  You know, good night.
[01:05:17]  And I'm wiping my tears.
[01:05:18]  I'm like, oh, I just feel emotional.
[01:05:20]  Thank you.
[01:05:20]  Good night.
[01:05:21]  And I go in the bedroom and I barricade the doors.
[01:05:25]  And I know they're watching and I don't care, you know?
[01:05:27]  And I'm just like, I've got to get out of this house.
[01:05:30]  So the next morning I heard them leave around eight and they went, you know, to their airport on their private Lolita Express home to New York.
[01:05:37]  And I immediately started calling people.
[01:05:40]  But before I started calling people, Jeffrey called me and he's like, that was so great.
[01:05:44]  I really enjoyed being with you.
[01:05:45]  And I started crying.
[01:05:47]  And I said, Jeffrey, you're so sick.
[01:05:48]  Like, I just honest to God, I thought I had a job with you.
[01:05:51]  I don't understand this.
[01:05:52]  Where is Annie?
[01:05:53]  Where's my sister?
[01:05:54]  What did you do with the photographs?
[01:05:56]  So here's the other thing.
[01:05:57]  This is huge.
[01:05:57]  Yeah, the photographs.
[01:05:59]  While I'm lying there, I'm thinking, I intuited this, you guys.
[01:06:02]  This is so bizarre how much we understand that we don't recognize.
[01:06:05]  I knew somehow, how would I have known this?
[01:06:07]  They had stolen photographs.
[01:06:09]  I knew this while I was being assaulted.
[01:06:11]  And they had stolen the photographs that I had taken.
[01:06:13]  This is why I stopped painting very specifically.
[01:06:16]  They had stolen photographs I took of my sisters who were 12 and 15 and they weren't totally clothed.
[01:06:22]  And I had those pictures because I was studying anatomy.
[01:06:24]  And with Eric Fischer, we worked from photographs.
[01:06:27]  I still do.
[01:06:28]  And so it was very traumatic to have like, I called his office and I said, he had hung up on me when I asked where the photographs were.
[01:06:37]  So I called his office and the woman said, the woman said, it was his British secretary.
[01:06:43]  And she hung up on me.
[01:06:44]  And another girl called me back and she said, Maria, I want you to know something so you don't lose your mind.
[01:06:49]  Those photographs are in his briefcase and he's using them.
[01:06:53]  So that was really devastating.
[01:06:55]  One of my sisters still barely talks to me because it's really dipping hard on her.
[01:07:00]  So I never painted again after that.
[01:07:03]  I just stopped painting because I thought this has done something really bad.
[01:07:07]  I did something bad with this process.
[01:07:10]  And it wasn't my fault.
[01:07:12]  So I ran down to the basement and I found in the basement.
[01:07:16]  This is so upsetting, but I found they broken open my safe that I had.
[01:07:20]  It was a little plastic safe, but I had all my pictures in it that I kept, you know, everything valuable in.
[01:07:24]  I had my passport, you know, everything in there.
[01:07:27]  And she had rifled through, or he had.
[01:07:29]  I still have those envelopes, guys, and the FBI will not take them.
[01:07:32]  I have DNA, touch DNA on them.
[01:07:35]  They could just say, you know, Gilan, we have proof of this.
[01:07:38]  This is child pornography.
[01:07:40]  But we didn't count, guys.
[01:07:41]  We did not count because when I called the FBI, I told them they had trafficked my sister and I.
[01:07:47]  This is in 1996.
[01:07:49]  These people have a child porn ring.
[01:07:51]  And I know because they've stolen these pictures and I have proof of it.
[01:07:54]  Please come get the proof.
[01:07:56]  Yeah, no, we don't need that.
[01:07:58]  No, thanks, though.
[01:07:59]  Can you keep this quiet?
[01:08:00]  Can you just don't say anything?
[01:08:03]  So, when you contacted the F, well, you contacted the police and the FBI.
[01:08:08]  I went actually, I went with, I went with an acquaintance to the NYPD first, and I was so embarrassed to tell the story because it's so bizarre.
[01:08:16]  And I thought, okay, I knew some of those guys, they were really cool.
[01:08:19]  And I had helped do dog rescue through them.
[01:08:21]  So they like knew me.
[01:08:22]  So I thought, well, maybe they'll think I'm not, maybe they won't think I'm crazy.
[01:08:26]  But they were like, Maria, you know, we know you and we know you're not lying, but this is way above anything.
[01:08:31]  This is not even in our jurisdiction at all.
[01:08:34]  Yeah.
[01:08:34]  And they said, all we can do is report that the fact that she threatened my life and threatened the uh to burn the art because it happened in greenwich village and it was the sixth precinct, right?
[01:08:45]  But they said, you have to go to the FBI.
[01:08:47]  I mean, the NYPD was very clear about this.
[01:08:49]  This is a very serious matter.
[01:08:51]  You have to go to the FBI.
[01:08:53]  Here's the phone number.
[01:08:54]  Right.
[01:08:54]  So, of course, I called the Southern District of New York and Berman that jerk off the day of the arrest is pretending he's never heard of this case if Julie Berman or Julie, I'm sorry, if Julie Brown had not written articles in the Miami Herald.
[01:09:09]  And that is so egregious because I called his office 24 years before he made that statement, that liar.
[01:09:16]  Yeah.
[01:09:16]  God, that must have been so hurtful to me.
[01:09:19]  I'm sitting here with cancer.
[01:09:21]  I just gotten out of radiation for a brain tumor and Berman is lying, making me look like a liar.
[01:09:27]  Yeah.
[01:09:28]  I mean, that's that's what I think is, is, it seems like it must be so traumatic about all this is because it happened to you, but it's such a such a powerful figure that seems so untouchable.
[01:09:40]  And then no one will really give you the time of day, or if they do give you a time of day, they find a reason to put you off or something like that.
[01:09:48]  And I mean, that's that's Donald Trump, our president, exactly, hired, hired the legal team that gave Epstein the sweetheart deal.
[01:09:56]  Do you know he did that to hurt us?
[01:09:58]  There's no way he did that by chance.
[01:10:00]  Of all the lawyers in the world, he's going to hire Dushowitz.
[01:10:02]  That guy's an idiot.
[01:10:03]  Exactly.
[01:10:04]  Yeah.
[01:10:04]  He's not.
[01:10:05]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:10:06]  Yeah.
[01:10:07]  Yeah.
[01:10:08]  I could go off.
[01:10:08]  He's a real creeper and he's on that creepy network, Fox News.
[01:10:12]  Shame on them.
[01:10:12]  They're so gross.
[01:10:13]  And it's in heat.
[01:10:15]  I'm just grossed out.
[01:10:16]  Oh, I mean, the feeling you must have when you see these people still on TV every day, you know, or still so connected.
[01:10:27]  And, you know, just reading stories about, you know, Dershowitz on Martha's Vineyard.
[01:10:31]  It's like the children who they were, who they raised.
[01:10:34]  Exactly.
[01:10:34]  Exactly.
[01:10:35]  I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's incredible because it's like seeing like that, stuff like that, you know, maybe not for everybody, but for a lot of people can re-traumatize you, you know, and especially over and over and over.
[01:10:46]  Yeah.
[01:10:46]  Also, Fox News, like this creeper, Jesse Waters, he has this girl on, and she's like pretending she's telling my story.

=== Spoke To Them (08:38) ===

[01:10:54]  And she's like, oh, if they, if they just listen to me in 1996, like there would have been no victims in Florida.
[01:11:01]  And also, like, Donald Trump's a great guy.
[01:11:03]  She never met Donald Trump.
[01:11:05]  Yeah.
[01:11:05]  She's never spent more than five seconds around that man.
[01:11:09]  And she never met Gilan.
[01:11:10]  And she never met any of the actors.
[01:11:11]  She was never a Victoria's Secret model.
[01:11:13]  And she is not me, folks.
[01:11:15]  And I have really suffered.
[01:11:17]  And that girl's still, she's dipping into the same pot.
[01:11:20]  So it's like going to be divvied up.
[01:11:21]  Like, if you're the same age, you get the same amount.
[01:11:24]  What is this crap?
[01:11:25]  I mean, I have really, I have cancer from them.
[01:11:28]  Yeah.
[01:11:28]  Yeah.
[01:11:29]  Mad, you know?
[01:11:30]  So how many times did you speak with the FBI?
[01:11:34]  Okay, so this is interesting.
[01:11:36]  I didn't hear from them for 10 years.
[01:11:38]  And then I'm living in the woods of North Carolina because Gilan's been threatening my life.
[01:11:42]  So I literally, I had moved, I think, four times at that point.
[01:11:46]  And what I did is I decided to start restoring houses like with my own hands so that I could survive.
[01:11:52]  So I would live, I would have a place to live.
[01:11:54]  I could do my kind of art by restoring, use my eye, and then I would sell it and survive, right?
[01:11:59]  It was just a survival game.
[01:12:01]  And so I would move to these really rural places full of really ignorant hillbillies.
[01:12:06]  It was a nightmare because I couldn't afford to restore a house in a regular city or something.
[01:12:11]  Yeah.
[01:12:11]  I had no money.
[01:12:12]  So I was trying to just get by.
[01:12:14]  And I'm living in North Carolina, which is probably the end of the world.
[01:12:18]  I mean, it was just a nightmare.
[01:12:19]  I was in the mountains with literal hillbillies.
[01:12:22]  Yeah.
[01:12:22]  And I mean, these people are so ignorant.
[01:12:24]  You can't.
[01:12:24]  They actually, I actually had people say to me, we don't speak to you because you wear glasses.
[01:12:29]  And I said, what are you talking about?
[01:12:30]  And they said, well, listen to this.
[01:12:33]  Only lesbians wear glasses.
[01:12:34]  And I was like, well, who cares?
[01:12:38]  And also, that's not true.
[01:12:41]  You know?
[01:12:42]  So anyway, but that these people were very ignorant and I had to deal with that.
[01:12:48]  I actually saw a license plate, a homemade license plate there that said Jesus Goddard did.
[01:12:54]  And I didn't know what it meant.
[01:12:55]  And I took a photo of it and I asked locals and they said, get her done.
[01:12:59]  Jesus got her dead.
[01:13:01]  And I was like, okay, I got to move.
[01:13:03]  But anyway, I'm still living there.
[01:13:05]  And the FBI finds me and they knock on my door.
[01:13:07]  And of course, I think it's about my student loan.
[01:13:10]  I'm like, is this about my student loans?
[01:13:11]  Oh, no.
[01:13:12]  Yes, I said that.
[01:13:13]  And they said, oh, wow, that's so cute.
[01:13:15]  No, it's about your FBI report, Maria.
[01:13:18]  You're the only one who's reported him.
[01:13:20]  We're here to get your statement.
[01:13:22]  And we need you to testify.
[01:13:23]  We need your sister to testify because we're putting him away.
[01:13:26]  Well, hold on, Maria.
[01:13:27]  Wait, what, around what year was this?
[01:13:30]  This is in 2006.
[01:13:33]  Of course.
[01:13:33]  So this is the Palm Beach.
[01:13:35]  It's in like Appalachian Trail Country of North Carolina, like dangerous, right?
[01:13:41]  And I'm living there because I can't live anywhere in the real world.
[01:13:45]  And I have to change my name.
[01:13:46]  And I've had people from that hillbilly area write to me and say, you were such a creep.
[01:13:50]  You used a different name.
[01:13:51]  And I'm like, God, you're not very smart.
[01:13:54]  I wonder why I was using that name.
[01:13:57]  Okay.
[01:13:58]  So anyway, they Nesbitt Kirkadall.
[01:14:01]  Have to say, was a hero, guys.
[01:14:03]  Um, she really, this one FBI, you know, the boots on the ground people are the ones doing the work.
[01:14:08]  They're not the bad guys, not all of them, some of them are probably bad, but I met a couple really good ones and they were amazing.
[01:14:14]  This girl, okay, first probably looked like movie stars.
[01:14:17]  I don't know what that was about, but they were like 10 feet tall, and both of them were blonde, and they were really beautiful.
[01:14:23]  And I did, I'm like, uh, I guess I can serve you orange juice and cookies, you know?
[01:14:26]  Yes, yes, I'm like, Annie tried to sell them Arvon, which was like a pyramid scheme when they came to Austin to interview her.
[01:14:36]  I think they bought some just to be nice, you know.
[01:14:38]  Anyway, Nesbitt Nesbitt was an amazing woman.
[01:14:41]  She was probably she, other than Brad Edwards, she was the only real hero in this case.
[01:14:46]  You know, she was like a superhero, and she really cried and believed she it hurt for her that these children had been her.
[01:14:53]  She had children, and she was a beautiful, she is a beautiful soul that tried to get this done, guys.
[01:14:59]  And they, well, that legal team over, you know, Acosta.
[01:15:03]  Yes, right, aka, aka, like weird that in my drawing, he's Satan, Acosta.
[01:15:08]  Yes, yes, yes.
[01:15:11]  It's just like, he's a really, he's a bad one.
[01:15:13]  So, yeah, labor secretary, Acosta.
[01:15:16]  Yeah, what a great guy.
[01:15:18]  What great buddies.
[01:15:19]  Yeah.
[01:15:20]  Yeah.
[01:15:20]  Not a fan.
[01:15:22]  So you, so you spoke to them then when they showed up at your door, but do you spoke to them a couple other times?
[01:15:28]  Um, yeah.
[01:15:29]  So here, here's the thing: so I spoke to them.
[01:15:33]  They, they, yeah, I spoke to them several times following that because I was supposed to go testify.
[01:15:37]  And I get a call one day from Nesbitt, and it's like, Maria, you know, and she's crying, and I don't really understand what she's saying.
[01:15:45]  And I didn't, I didn't know what she was talking about.
[01:15:47]  And then we never understood that they had settled.
[01:15:50]  It was never made clear to us.
[01:15:52]  No one called Annie.
[01:15:53]  No one said you don't ever have to come testify in Florida.
[01:15:56]  So we like waited until a couple of years ago.
[01:15:57]  Do you think we're going to be testifying in Florida soon?
[01:16:00]  And every time I would hear something about Virginia, I'd be like, Are we going to go testify for that?
[01:16:03]  Or not.
[01:16:06]  No respect.
[01:16:07]  Yeah.
[01:16:07]  No respect for us.
[01:16:08]  Okay.
[01:16:09]  So then the worst part is recently, very recently, I was living in another Hillbilly town, the Duke of Kentucky.
[01:16:16]  And there were Hillbilly Doctor's office.
[01:16:19]  That's where I was born.
[01:16:20]  Yeah.
[01:16:21]  Yeah.
[01:16:22]  There was a Hillbilly doctor's office there that actually later, one of the girls that had come lunching at me, it ends up she died of a meth overdose, but the next week, right?
[01:16:32]  But she, but these people tried to, they were going to attack me for being an Epstein victim.
[01:16:37]  So the police call me and they're like, you're going to be arrested.
[01:16:42]  Yeah, it's a really crooked town, guys.
[01:16:44]  Okay.
[01:16:44]  So I'm like, I'm going to be arrested.
[01:16:46]  What?
[01:16:46]  I have to call the FBI.
[01:16:47]  I can't get reached my lawyer's cigarette.
[01:16:49]  So I'm like, I need to call the FBI.
[01:16:51]  So I call them and I have my mother as my witness.
[01:16:54]  Yeah, it was on speaker.
[01:16:56]  The guy flipped out on me.
[01:16:57]  Started screaming at me that I've never had anything to report.
[01:17:00]  I've never known of a federal crime.
[01:17:02]  How dare you waste my time?
[01:17:05]  What?
[01:17:05]  Wow.
[01:17:07]  No, guys, it was as soon as I said my name.
[01:17:10]  ABI agents.
[01:17:12]  Yeah.
[01:17:12]  Not letting it go.
[01:17:13]  It terrified me.
[01:17:14]  And so I moved again.
[01:17:16]  Yeah.
[01:17:17]  I'm not safe in Kentucky.
[01:17:18]  I'm not safe there.
[01:17:20]  No.
[01:17:20]  I mean, I, I, I, it's, it's, you know, the tendency of people to have turned up dead.
[01:17:26]  So oh, yeah.
[01:17:27]  Andy Stewart.
[01:17:29]  Yeah.
[01:17:30]  I mean, even the butler, you know.
[01:17:33]  Oh, yeah.
[01:17:33]  The butler.
[01:17:34]  Yeah.
[01:17:34]  Uh, it's, it's, it's, it's like a, I got the Christie novel.
[01:17:39]  It really is.
[01:17:40]  It is.
[01:17:40]  Eve.
[01:17:41]  Was she that?
[01:17:41]  Was she like the M for murder lady?
[01:17:44]  Yeah.
[01:17:44]  Yeah.
[01:17:45]  E for Epstein.
[01:17:46]  I don't know.
[01:17:47]  I don't know.
[01:17:49]  All right, my bad.
[01:17:51]  So what did you, I mean, speaking of that, what did you think of when Jeffrey was arrested finally?
[01:17:57]  And well, and then what happened to him afterwards, which we could talk about.
[01:18:01]  Right.
[01:18:02]  So I kind of knew because I had, um, so the cold case guys who are, God, I can't even say how studly they are.
[01:18:09]  It was weird.
[01:18:10]  There's like this really cool chick, and I'm not going to say her name, but she was amazing.
[01:18:14]  And then a really kick butt prosecutor that you would never want to face in a court.
[01:18:19]  She was so amazing, right?
[01:18:22]  Yeah.
[01:18:22]  And then this guy, I'm going to say his name, Detective Phelan.
[01:18:25]  I.D. needs to do a show where Detective Phelan is telling stories because he's like seven feet tall and he's what you think of as a New York cop.
[01:18:34]  You know, he's just like the real deal.
[01:18:36]  He's got the great accent.
[01:18:37]  He really cares about the people of New York.
[01:18:40]  And Detective Phelan was going to make this happen, this arrest.
[01:18:43]  And he came here to where I'm living now after leaving Paducah to interview me.
[01:18:48]  Yeah, with this group of detectives.
[01:18:50]  It was all cold case.
[01:18:52]  Yeah.
[01:18:52]  And so that was a couple weeks before the arrest.
[01:18:56]  And then they called me after and they said, sorry, Maria, we had to hand it to the FBI.
[01:19:00]  And they apologized because they knew the FBI wasn't going to do anything.
[01:19:03]  Yeah.
[01:19:03]  I'm assuming, I can't speak for them, but she sounded very devastated.
[01:19:07]  I mean, they had talked to you.
[01:19:09]  Yeah.
[01:19:09]  And they asked me, they asked me in front of David Boyce, why is the FDI not interested in speaking to Maria again?
[01:19:16]  Here's the other thing the FBI did to me.
[01:19:18]  I rode all the way to New York City, all the way.
[01:19:20]  And they're not just doing this to me.
[01:19:21]  A victim reached out to me today and she sent me proof of this that she's been trying to get the FBI to take evidence from her for a year and they won't even contact her.
[01:19:29]  Yeah.
[01:19:30]  And they won't even go through the attorneys to get to her.

=== FBI's Inaction Revealed (04:04) ===

[01:19:33]  So they are up to something not very good.
[01:19:35]  And what I'm trying to do is make Berman prove to us that he's not deep state by arresting these co-conspirators.
[01:19:41]  Prove it, Berman.
[01:19:42]  Prove it.
[01:19:43]  So how did you feel?
[01:19:44]  I mean, when he was killed, that must have.
[01:19:47]  Oh my God.
[01:19:49]  Yeah.
[01:19:49]  No.
[01:19:49]  I mean, here's what happened.
[01:19:51]  I have a really sweet friend that came to me and she brought me this thing called a damn it doll.
[01:19:57]  And you throw it against the wall and she made it.
[01:19:59]  It's really cute.
[01:20:00]  But anyway, she brought that and she said, I don't know what else to bring.
[01:20:03]  She said, you might need some drinks or something.
[01:20:05]  I'm not a drinker.
[01:20:06]  So I was like, oh man, that just doesn't work.
[01:20:09]  But anyway, I just actually have lymphoma and alcohol makes the lymphoma very painful.
[01:20:14]  And my lymphoma is all around my heart.
[01:20:18]  And it's very upsetting to me because, you know, my heart has been hurting for a long time because I knew children were being hurt.
[01:20:26]  And I think it literally manifested itself.
[01:20:29]  Yeah.
[01:20:30]  They broke my heart.
[01:20:33]  They broke an artist's heart.
[01:20:34]  An artist is the worst person to hurt.
[01:20:36]  And all these girls are creative.
[01:20:37]  They're all artists of different kinds.
[01:20:39]  And I'm going to tell you something.
[01:20:41]  They broke all of our hearts.
[01:20:42]  Yeah.
[01:20:45]  The president that hires, I'm sorry, Alan Dershowitz and Kinst, all these evil actors.
[01:20:52]  He hurt us so badly.
[01:20:53]  How can people vote for these?
[01:20:54]  How can people vote at all?
[01:20:57]  Seriously.
[01:20:58]  It's incredible.
[01:20:58]  I mean, there's no voting this year.
[01:21:00]  Yeah, not for me.
[01:21:02]  Not for me.
[01:21:03]  Well, I think the work that you have been doing as a kind of, you know, network, not networking, but like you're, I mean, kind of creating a network with all of these other girls.
[01:21:13]  Oh, they're amazing.
[01:21:14]  It's just incredible and a real inspiration.
[01:21:19]  Yeah.
[01:21:19]  And our love is going to beat all this.
[01:21:21]  It really is.
[01:21:21]  You know, we're uniting in love.
[01:21:23]  And Alan Dershowitz is suing one of the victims right now.
[01:21:26]  Oh, yeah.
[01:21:27]  Who does that?
[01:21:29]  Alan Dershowitz.
[01:21:30]  Yeah.
[01:21:31]  Does he not understand the optics of what a slime bag he is?
[01:21:35]  Yeah.
[01:21:35]  Yeah.
[01:21:36]  I mean, that's, that's, that's.
[01:21:37]  I think he tends to like lean into it, actually.
[01:21:40]  Yeah.
[01:21:40]  He likes being sort of the Darth Vader, but the thing is.
[01:21:42]  He definitely, I mean, look at what his wife, his wife went through, his first wife.
[01:21:47]  Yeah.
[01:21:47]  Oh, my God.
[01:21:48]  Oh, my God.
[01:21:48]  For those of you that are.
[01:21:49]  And then he names his book Hutzpa.
[01:21:51]  I'm like, really?
[01:21:51]  That's a little bit.
[01:21:52]  Yeah.
[01:21:53]  Yeah.
[01:21:53]  I know.
[01:21:53]  Everything is always like really on the nose with people who don't know about Alan Dershowitz.
[01:21:58]  I would just Google Alan Dershowitz's first wife and find out something about if you thought this guy couldn't be any scummier, guess what?
[01:22:09]  There's no bottom with that.
[01:22:11]  Yeah.
[01:22:12]  And he was, he was asking for my phone recently.
[01:22:15]  He wanted my phone, like my actual phone.
[01:22:17]  Like your cell phone.
[01:22:18]  Yeah, my cell phone, because he wants it for a court case that has nothing to do with me.
[01:22:23]  And it's not even my lawyer he was asking it for.
[01:22:25]  He hates my lawyer.
[01:22:26]  He was, it wasn't even that.
[01:22:27]  It was a friend of mine.
[01:22:29]  He said, I'm going to include Maria Farmer in this.
[01:22:31]  He's trying to find out as much on me as he can.
[01:22:33]  There's nothing to find.
[01:22:34]  I've been in hiding, bucko.
[01:22:35]  Yeah.
[01:22:36]  There's nothing.
[01:22:37]  I didn't even paint for 20 years.
[01:22:39]  I barely existed, you know?
[01:22:44]  No, I just, yeah.
[01:22:45]  I mean, he's don't get me started.
[01:22:48]  Attacking one of the girls that's just trying to survive.
[01:22:52]  Okay.
[01:22:52]  Oh, that's that's been his MO all along.
[01:22:54]  Is these girls are liars?
[01:22:55]  These girls, but nothing that's the thing about this is nothing that I've heard any victim say has ever been proved wrong.
[01:23:03]  No, no, that's like it's it's it's everything Virginia said that they said was incorrect, everything you said that said incorrect.
[01:23:10]  Yep, I've never, yeah, it's it's it's yeah, um, yeah, and yeah, I want to just again like highlight, you know, kind of what we were talking about before we started recording, but just the you know the connections that you are all making together as a kind of you know united front is really incredible.

=== Israeli Intelligence Revelations (04:31) ===

[01:23:38]  It's neat.
[01:23:39]  One of the, I think I told you, one of the girls asked me to be her baby's gone.
[01:23:43]  Yeah.
[01:23:44]  So I'm really touched.
[01:23:45]  Yeah.
[01:23:47]  No, it's a family.
[01:23:48]  They're family.
[01:23:49]  Virginia calls us survivor sisters.
[01:23:51]  I mean, it's just so sad.
[01:23:52]  Absolutely.
[01:23:53]  It's so sweet.
[01:23:54]  I'm the oldest sister by far.
[01:23:56]  Yes.
[01:23:57]  But you know what's so sad about that?
[01:23:58]  Annie's like, well, I'm the oldest sister too.
[01:24:00]  And I'm like, but I'm 20 years older than everybody.
[01:24:03]  The thing is, I win.
[01:24:05]  I'm just kidding.
[01:24:05]  No, but I am the big sister for sure.
[01:24:07]  And I could, they could be my children.
[01:24:10]  And you know, that was the other thing that was taken from me is I had some kind of cool boyfriends in New York.
[01:24:15]  And my last boyfriend was this guy, Avram Ludwig.
[01:24:18]  He's Doug Lyman's, like, he was his producer.
[01:24:20]  He's passed away, but he was the neatest guy I've ever met in my life.
[01:24:24]  And I was totally in love with him.
[01:24:25]  And I had to leave and go into hiding.
[01:24:27]  It's like, you know, what is this crap?
[01:24:30]  My life was taken.
[01:24:31]  And then I never got to have children.
[01:24:32]  Not that I was, that was a goal.
[01:24:33]  I really wanted to make art, but I kind of thought I would have a family, like a husband, right?
[01:24:38]  And then these people, when you have to move all the time and you're so unstable, it's so unfair that they don't get Gee Land.
[01:24:46]  And I have to keep hiding.
[01:24:48]  People like to press Berman.
[01:24:50]  Why?
[01:24:50]  Why is he not arresting anybody?
[01:24:52]  I have some theories on that, Nablie.
[01:24:55]  What is it?
[01:24:55]  Well, my theory is that they either that they know from what I've heard, just rumors is that they know where she is, but they're not, they're just not doing anything.
[01:25:04]  Of course, they know where she is.
[01:25:05]  But my other theory is that they're just, I mean, that's, I guess, these are the same theory, is that they're just not going to do anything.
[01:25:10]  Basically, yeah.
[01:25:12]  Yeah, I think so too.
[01:25:13]  I think if there's enough of an outrage, they'll have to.
[01:25:15]  That's right.
[01:25:16]  Yeah.
[01:25:17]  Well, because it's, it's one day, like, you can't hide forever, even if she's hiding.
[01:25:21]  No matter where she's hiding, one day someone will see her.
[01:25:25]  You know what I mean?
[01:25:26]  And once they do, the jig is up there.
[01:25:28]  I'm going to tell you, I think she's at the Rothschilds because she told me when she showed me photo albums, and these people have a lot of money, guys.
[01:25:35]  Yeah.
[01:25:36]  And I actually had a friend in New York who's a good friend with a Rothschild.
[01:25:39]  And these people.
[01:25:40]  Well, there's a lot of them.
[01:25:42]  Okay.
[01:25:42]  Because these people were really wealthy too.
[01:25:44]  A lot of them are wealthy, but it's a very big family.
[01:25:47]  Oh, okay.
[01:25:48]  Well, this, this family, this part of them were really nice and they were friends with my friend Susan.
[01:25:52]  But anyway, they were so incredibly wealthy.
[01:25:55]  So it scared me because that means they have a lot of power.
[01:25:58]  And so I didn't know that they were a different family.
[01:26:00]  I just knew Rothschild.
[01:26:01]  And she showed me all these photos of her father, like at his state funeral in Israel.
[01:26:07]  And she showed, then she said that they, the CUMTs killed him.
[01:26:13]  Like she's bragging about these people.
[01:26:15]  And I didn't know if she meant the Rothschilds.
[01:26:17]  or the people at the funeral because she was saying before that that the Rothschilds were the great protectors of her family.
[01:26:24]  And I'm like, which is it?
[01:26:25]  Did they kill him or are they protecting him?
[01:26:27]  You know, so it's just very bizarre, very bizarre.
[01:26:30]  I know after her, after her father's death, she would, she was telling people that the Sicilian mafia and the Israeli intelligence killed him, which I'm like, I can see that.
[01:26:41]  I mean, Israeli intelligence, I'm pretty sure.
[01:26:43]  I read a book about her dad.
[01:26:44]  Oh, you did?
[01:26:45]  Oh, so I don't know much.
[01:26:46]  He was, well, he was a very famous spy.
[01:26:49]  Also, I didn't know that until this came out.
[01:26:52]  Yeah.
[01:26:52]  Well, exactly.
[01:26:53]  It's like he was a real scumbag, but I'm pretty sure.
[01:26:58]  And he was a real, he was a real scumbag.
[01:27:01]  And his daughter seemed to follow right in his footsteps with a few modifications.
[01:27:08]  Yeah, I think the whole family kind of fell to the wayside.
[01:27:11]  Supposedly the mother was nice, but who knows?
[01:27:14]  Exactly.
[01:27:14]  But of course, the father was a huge asshole to her.
[01:27:18]  Yeah.
[01:27:18]  Yeah.
[01:27:18]  He abused her, I guess, from what I read.
[01:27:20]  I don't know.
[01:27:21]  I mean, it is, it has been, I don't know, it's been really fantastic talking to you.
[01:27:28]  Oh, thank you.
[01:27:30]  Your story is like, it's, you know, it was one of the sort of more focused on ones early because there was that New York Times article.
[01:27:38]  Right.
[01:27:38]  But you've been, you're such like a, I don't know, an eloquent, you know, one of many spokes, spokespeople for this cause.
[01:27:46]  And it's kind of you.
[01:27:47]  I will say when you, when you were talking about how, you know, before we started and then just now, when you talk about how you're getting together, and it's like, that is something that I think like there are so many of you and so many of you guys are like, you know, especially in the face of all this, just incredibly strong that I think that like, you know, one, one tends to think that like these people, you know, can't be brought to justice, blah, blah.

=== Petition for Change Needed (10:02) ===

[01:28:09]  I never.
[01:28:10]  And in any situation, I never think that, but it certainly can seem like that.
[01:28:15]  But I think I wanted to mention something because I'll forget.
[01:28:18]  Oh, no, no, no.
[01:28:18]  We're not.
[01:28:19]  This isn't done yet.
[01:28:20]  You can make whatever you'd like.
[01:28:21]  Yeah.
[01:28:22]  Okay.
[01:28:22]  This is about this.
[01:28:23]  And I'll forget because I have that brain tumor thing.
[01:28:25]  So I forget things very quickly.
[01:28:27]  But I don't, I have a great long-term memory.
[01:28:29]  Sorry, Randy Bowie.
[01:28:30]  Sorry, Leslie.
[01:28:31]  I have no problem with my long-term memory.
[01:28:33]  None.
[01:28:34]  But I wanted to say two things about that whole thing.
[01:28:36]  But also first, the FBI told me very specifically that they know where everyone is because I said, how did you find me?
[01:28:43]  And Nesbitt thought that was hilarious.
[01:28:45]  She was like, Maria, we know where everybody is.
[01:28:47]  And when I asked, I said, oh, you know, everyone in the United States, she goes, no, internationally.
[01:28:52]  Yeah.
[01:28:52]  Where everybody is.
[01:28:54]  So there suddenly Berman says, we can't find her.
[01:28:56]  That's the biggest pile of garbage.
[01:28:58]  And then I wanted to mention something else because this is why I'm speaking out.
[01:29:03]  I tried speaking out for many years, of course.
[01:29:05]  And I was silenced by Vicki Ward, by Vanity Fair.
[01:29:08]  That scared all the victims, by the way.
[01:29:11]  Vicki Ward has a lot of blood on her shoulders.
[01:29:14]  So I don't know if that's an expression, but I make up expressions.
[01:29:16]  So anyway, she's guilty.
[01:29:19]  So anyway, and she's very self-righteous.
[01:29:21]  And she contacted me and said, Maria, I'm an Epstein victim and you're very rude.
[01:29:26]  Can you believe this?
[01:29:27]  Yeah.
[01:29:28]  Yes.
[01:29:28]  And she sent me a letter here, kind of so she would was letting me know.
[01:29:33]  Now, this is Elan's friend.
[01:29:36]  Oh, to your house where you're at right now?
[01:29:38]  Yes.
[01:29:39]  And get this.
[01:29:40]  It's a velvet card from like Neiman Marcus.
[01:29:43]  No.
[01:29:44]  And it on it, she explains all these things that I did wrong and how she's not to blame at all.
[01:29:49]  But there's no apology.
[01:29:51]  And she also was letting me know she knows where I live, guys.
[01:29:54]  So this is what that's what we've all gone through.
[01:29:56]  But the other thing I wanted to say is the reason I'm speaking out now is because a year ago, I was told I had a brain tumor.
[01:30:03]  And when I was told this, like this thing happened to me where they say, like, you know, they say your life flashes in front of your eyes.
[01:30:09]  But I didn't have that happen.
[01:30:11]  I had all these experiences that I never had flash in front of my eyes because I hadn't had the experiences.
[01:30:16]  And so I saw all these things that were never going to happen.
[01:30:19]  And I got really mad.
[01:30:21]  And then I went in and they, after I got the radiation, they did this thing where they stuck a wire down my throat and they said, you had two weeks left before you were going to lose your voice.
[01:30:31]  And it gets worse.
[01:30:32]  It gets worse.
[01:30:33]  I had to have thoracic surgery because then they did a PET scan and they said, gosh, you have something going on in your chest.
[01:30:40]  We have to do thoracic surgery now to do a biopsy.
[01:30:43]  And it was a major surgery.
[01:30:44]  They break a rib, they deflate your lung.
[01:30:46]  It's major and it's the worst pain in the world.
[01:30:49]  And they couldn't find it.
[01:30:50]  Like this weird lymphoma thing, it's Hodgkins and it hides.
[01:30:54]  There are these weird tumors that like hide.
[01:30:56]  So even though they knew there were all these tumors there and they removed them, they're like, we can't get to everything, but everything we can reach is clear, but we don't know why.
[01:31:03]  So we have to watch it.
[01:31:05]  But I woke up from that surgery and my tongue was black and I couldn't speak.
[01:31:10]  And it ends up the anesthesiologist was some crazy Russian woman who didn't pay attention.
[01:31:15]  Nothing to do with being Russian, but I'm mad about it.
[01:31:17]  And so Aubrey Ludwig was Russian.
[01:31:19]  He was my boyfriend.
[01:31:21]  Forget that.
[01:31:21]  I'm part of Russian.
[01:31:22]  You're good.
[01:31:23]  But this woman was like, I'm not like Rachel with Mad Cow Disease, who goes, Russia, Russia, Russia.
[01:31:28]  And I'm not like her.
[01:31:29]  She does this complaint about Russia.
[01:31:31]  But this guy, this woman was a crazy Russian, like maybe drunk.
[01:31:34]  I don't know.
[01:31:34]  But she did this thing with my tongue where she accidentally cut off the circulation.
[01:31:39]  And so it almost died.
[01:31:41]  And I almost lost my tongue.
[01:31:43]  And so, and then I had to go in for another thoracic surgery three months ago.
[01:31:47]  And they said, oh, yeah, it's cancer.
[01:31:48]  It's a different kind of cancer.
[01:31:50]  What are the chances?
[01:31:52]  So I have two kinds of cancer and I almost lost my tongue twice.
[01:31:55]  I am going to never shut up.
[01:31:58]  No, and we are so thankful you haven't lost your voice.
[01:32:01]  Thank you.
[01:32:02]  Yeah.
[01:32:02]  I mean, that is God.
[01:32:04]  I'm really honored that you guys asked me.
[01:32:05]  I was so flattered early.
[01:32:07]  Oh, my gosh.
[01:32:07]  We are so honored to have you.
[01:32:12]  No, we're so, so honored that you come on and that we are able to amplify your story for everyone to hear because it's so important.
[01:32:21]  Yeah.
[01:32:21]  Thank you.
[01:32:22]  I mean, that's the thing about this is like a lot of, I mean, the news cycles or whatever, I mean, they either ignore things or they move on really quickly.
[01:32:30]  But this is a story like the Epstein sort of nexus around that.
[01:32:35]  Everybody involved in that from people like Vicki Ward to people like Alan Dershowitz, people like Donald Trump, Leslie Wexner.
[01:32:43]  All these people.
[01:32:43]  Ivana Trump.
[01:32:44]  Exactly.
[01:32:44]  It's like, it's, you know, this should hang around their necks, you know, like a stone.
[01:32:50]  I hope it does.
[01:32:51]  I hope they are so full of albatross.
[01:32:53]  They can't.
[01:32:54]  Exactly.
[01:32:55]  Yes, yes, yes.
[01:32:56]  I hope they choke on Albatross.
[01:32:58]  Me too.
[01:33:00]  Yeah, I think too, you know, there's so much.
[01:33:03]  And look, and, you know, there's so much that we've explored on the podcast exploring this case and all the various cast of characters.
[01:33:09]  And it's so important to bring it back to the real people that were at the heart of, that are at the heart of this story, which is you and your sisters.
[01:33:20]  Yes.
[01:33:21]  They just, I just really can't wait for them to be able to, if they want to, speak out at some point.
[01:33:26]  Yes.
[01:33:26]  We've, you know, everybody's been really traumatized.
[01:33:29]  And people, I don't know why people don't understand this.
[01:33:33]  You know, why do people?
[01:33:35]  I don't know.
[01:33:36]  I don't know why they don't understand.
[01:33:38]  I think people do, but I think it's really, I think it's really hard for people to hold on to.
[01:33:44]  So, which is why it's, again, so important to have you to come on to kind of recenter our listeners so that they can remember.
[01:33:53]  Yeah.
[01:33:54]  I can't say one last thing.
[01:33:55]  Sorry.
[01:33:56]  Okay.
[01:33:56]  So the thing is, I never went after money ever.
[01:33:59]  I, I, you know, I had 25 years of the richest people in the world harmed me and I never tried to sue them.
[01:34:05]  But about seven years ago, I reached out to Gloria Allred.
[01:34:08]  And you know what?
[01:34:09]  Her assistant indicated, well, they shamed me and indicated, and I could hear her over the speaker thing.
[01:34:16]  And they didn't believe me.
[01:34:18]  And not only that, they knew it was true, but they said they didn't believe me.
[01:34:22]  Or she, the assistant did.
[01:34:23]  And then she said, you and Annie don't even have a case.
[01:34:28]  Yeah.
[01:34:28]  So that was hard.
[01:34:29]  So I went to bed for two weeks crying.
[01:34:31]  And I was like, wow, you know, this is a woman who I thought was like a real activist for women.
[01:34:35]  I didn't know who Gloria Allred was.
[01:34:37]  I didn't know she was a scumbag, but I thought she was, I thought she and Lisa Bloom cared about victims.
[01:34:41]  I didn't know they were Harvey Weinstein's friend.
[01:34:43]  Yeah.
[01:34:44]  I didn't know that.
[01:34:45]  Yeah.
[01:34:45]  Yeah.
[01:34:46]  That's.
[01:34:46]  And yeah.
[01:34:48]  So it's just, it was really painful to wait so long to speak is the other thing.
[01:34:53]  And I was hushed by people all over the place, even lawyers, you know?
[01:34:57]  Yeah.
[01:34:59]  I can only imagine.
[01:35:03]  Well, thank you so much.
[01:35:05]  Thank you guys.
[01:35:06]  Well, we're, well, we'll explain more about the GoFundMe after the interview.
[01:35:10]  But I definitely want to make sure people sign that.
[01:35:14]  Oh, yes.
[01:35:15]  Yes.
[01:35:15]  Because Eileen Guggenheim.
[01:35:17]  Wait, hold on.
[01:35:18]  Hold on.
[01:35:19]  Let's do a proper.
[01:35:20]  Yeah.
[01:35:21]  Let's do a proper intro of the petition.
[01:35:23]  There is a petition out there, correct?
[01:35:25]  Yes.
[01:35:26]  Which explained it to our listeners.
[01:35:29]  Okay.
[01:35:29]  So a woman named Kirby Summers set up this petition so that she could remove Eileen Guggenheim from the board of the New York Academy of Art.
[01:35:38]  She's the president of the board.
[01:35:40]  She's the one who harmed me immeasurably.
[01:35:42]  She's absolutely the person who fed me to these people and fed my sister to them.
[01:35:48]  And it's, it's about, you said it was about 2,000 signatures now, but you need like 5,000.
[01:35:53]  5,000.
[01:35:53]  We only need 5,000 signatures.
[01:35:55]  That's not a lot of people.
[01:35:56]  Well, we're going to.
[01:35:56]  The problem is it's not being like pushed a lot.
[01:35:58]  And then the academy is being so jerky.
[01:36:01]  Yeah.
[01:36:01]  I can only imagine.
[01:36:02]  Stuart Peivar is a really cool guy and they're going to have a little battle on their hands.
[01:36:07]  Yeah.
[01:36:09]  Well, we'll definitely, we're going to link to it in the show notes.
[01:36:12]  And all of our listeners, we're going to encourage you to go to the petition and sign your name because the link will be right there.
[01:36:20]  And you, you know, you got to do your part.
[01:36:22]  Right.
[01:36:23]  Thank you.
[01:36:24]  Well, Maria, so many people, including us, obviously, love you and support you.
[01:36:29]  I love you.
[01:36:30]  I think you're strong.
[01:36:31]  I feel all the love from people.
[01:36:33]  I feel it, man.
[01:36:34]  It's amazing.
[01:36:35]  It's going to heal my heart.
[01:36:36]  I know it.
[01:36:36]  That and chemo.
[01:36:38]  Yeah.
[01:36:38]  Yes.
[01:36:39]  Well, that's important.
[01:36:40]  And RSO.
[01:36:40]  RSO.
[01:36:41]  Oh, man.
[01:36:42]  That's good stuff.
[01:36:43]  I mean, that actually cures cancer.
[01:36:44]  So it's amazing.
[01:36:46]  It's amazing to see that you're making heart again.
[01:36:48]  Thank you.
[01:36:49]  That makes me.
[01:36:50]  That's the most, I know there's a lot of other heartbreaking details, but that's the most heartbreaking detail for me, how it sort of was the worst for me.
[01:36:57]  And it definitely didn't help emotionally.
[01:36:59]  Yeah.
[01:37:00]  But, but thank you so much.
[01:37:02]  Thank you guys.
[01:37:03]  I really had a good time.
[01:37:27]  So that's our episode for this week.
[01:37:29]  We should, we need to extend our thanks again to Maria.
[01:37:34]  She mentioned at the end of the episode that there's a petition.
[01:37:39]  They only need 5,000 signatures to remove Eileen Guggenheim from the board at the New York Academy of Art.
[01:37:48]  We're going to link to that in our show notes and we implore you to sign up or sign the petition.
[01:37:55]  And just as important, there's also a GoFundMe for Maria, which we will be, of course, donating to.
[01:38:02]  And we expect every single person who listens to this show to donate as well.
[01:38:06]  She's trying to get the $75,000 to help her with her cancer treatments.