Trump's Pope Picture + A State Representative on How to Reach Your Legislators
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Brad speaks with Oklahoma State Representative Mickey Dollens. They discuss the importance of staying engaged in civic life and fighting against Christian nationalism. Dollens shares his insights from his work with the Freedom from Religion Foundation (FFRF) and provides a practical framework called FORWARD to help individuals become effective citizen advocates. Dollens emphasizes the power of community action, the importance of telling personal stories, and the necessity of maintaining accountability in government.
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Axis Mundi It can be really hard to know what to do.
There is so much happening every day, and the last couple of months have been so traumatic, so forceful, so sudden, that it's easy to slip into despair.
However, we can't do that for the sake of ourselves.
For our kids, for our families, for our country.
In the face of an attempted dismantling of our government and so many forms of American flourishing, we have to find a way to stay in the fight.
Today I speak with Representative Mickey Dollins.
Mickey is a state representative in Oklahoma.
He is also somebody who is part of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
Mickey works as the Regional Government Affairs Manager at FFRF.
And he fights to uphold church-state separation and protect religious freedom for all.
He tracks bad bills, figures out where Christian nationalists are attacking our communities at the state level, at the local level.
He finds ways to get people involved, to get them connected to others who are fighting back and not allowing a Christian nationalist regime to take hold all over the United States.
Today, I speak with Mickey about a practical framework for getting involved, for taking steps each and every day, for finding others with whom you can build a coalition.
One of the reasons I wanted to talk to Mickey is because he's working on both sides.
As an elected representative, he has insight into the difference that phone calls and messages, postcards and rallies make, and the ways that those things can sway the minds of state legislatures, even in deep red districts.
As an activist, however, he has all of the practical tips and ideas about how we can stay involved for the long haul, about how you can call your representatives, about the very practical and easy ways that every person, whether they're an extroverted rally-goer, an introverted postcard writer, or anything in between, can provide constant pressure on their local, state, and national representatives.
In the bonus content for subscribers, I talk briefly about Trump's posting a picture of himself as the Pope.
There's no doubt he's trolled There's no doubt he's distracting.
There's no doubt that this is a way to get us to talk about himself rather than the issues that are tearing down the United States.
Nonetheless, I do think there's some comment that's worth making about the ways that Biden was understood to be an anti-Catholic president and now Donald Trump is Posing as the Pope in the wake of Francis' death is left off as nothing but a jokester and Donald being Donald.
I'm Brad Onishi, and this is Straight White American Jesus.
Straight White American Jesus Welcome to Streetwide American Jesus.
Great to be with you on this Monday.
And as I just said, welcoming back a friend of the show, someone who I've had a chance to get to know over the last year or so, and that is Mickey Dollins, who's not only a state rep in Oklahoma, but also somebody who's, as we're going to talk about, working to help folks find their voice and make their voices heard in government as everyday lobbyists.
And so, first of all, let me just say, Mickey, thanks for coming back.
Hey, Bradley.
It's great to be back on the show.
I think it was about a year ago I first joined you, so glad to be back.
It is great to see you.
And friends, if you haven't listened to that episode, you should for a number of reasons.
One is, Mickey talks all about the ways he is fighting in the Oklahoma legislature against Christian nationalism, against so many of the things we talk about on the show.
But we also talk about his amazing life journey from working on oil rigs to being a bobsledder.
Playing football.
It's, you know, it's quite a thing.
And I'm someday looking forward to that memoir, Mickey.
So I hope you've started writing it already.
But today we're here to talk about your work with the Freedom From Religion Foundation and just the ways that you're fighting bad bills and bad laws all over the country.
We're going to let folks know how they can make their voices heard.
But let's start with some of the wins.
I think some people need good news and they need to hear that there are actual victories happening.
Talk to me about some things that have happened recently across the country that will feel like victories.
I started working with Freedom From Religion Foundation back in January, and it's been an amazing job.
The colleagues I work with are incredible.
The coalitions that we partner with are extremely effective.
It's been really awesome to see a recent win that we just accomplished with the organization Unchained.
We were effective in banning child marriage in Washington, D.C. That means the minimum age for marriage is 18 years old, no exceptions.
And while there's only 13 states that have this as a law, that means there's so much opportunity to get it passed in the other 37 states.
It's an unfortunate and kind of archaic law that unfortunately still exists.
And when you combine that with the covenant marriage bills like we have in Oklahoma, it creates, it even compounds the problems.
One of the main focuses that we're doing at the state level with the Freedom From Religion Foundation and our action fund, which is the C4 side, is we're pushing back against one of the most common problems that we're seeing with Christian nationalists, and they're targeting public schools, specifically religious displays such as the Ten Commandments.
FFRF has been successful in joining a coalition in Louisiana.
We're currently fighting that Ten Commandments law.
In Louisiana.
And of course, we've got the Constitution on our side and a bunch of talented attorneys as well.
So we're very optimistic about that.
Of course, you're familiar with the religious chaplains in schools that are being used to replace trained mental health professionals and also released time.
There's a company called LifeWise that has a multi-marketing, MLM-style structure to what they're doing.
But it's extremely coercive, especially for young people.
And recently, we've been working with a state that they've passed a law that would prevent companies like LifeWise from encouraging students to join by passing out candy or little awards or little Jesus erasers, stuff like that.
But unfortunately, in some of these states, this is growing so quickly, and they've really got a lot of community buy-in from teachers and stuff.
In addition to that, the Freedom From Religion Foundation endorses candidates who are secular and uphold that constitutional principle of the separation of church and state.
And last year, we endorsed 56 candidates, and I'm excited to announce that more than two-thirds of them won.
So that means we are putting in lawmakers and public officials who respect that constitutional principle and ensure religious freedom for all.
Now, it's an onslaught of Christian nationalist bills that just continue to be pushed down the pike.
And thankfully, we get to team up with coalitions like American Atheists, Americans United, faith leaders.
But we really also teach about the principles of non-theism and how morals don't derive from religion, per se, but from good human nature.
And it's also encouraging for people who are wanting to run for office who aren't particularly religious or...
Maybe they're spiritual or not at all.
Many of them typically think at this point in time that they don't stand a chance.
They can't run for office because that automatically disqualifies them.
And they should be reminded that in the Sixth Amendment, there's no religious test to hold religious office.
And that should be remembered.
Like I always say, constituents on the most part care about how hard you're working for them during the week while at the Capitol or at city council, as opposed to what you're doing set Sunday mornings.
And so it's really encouraging to see the progress we're making, even though it can seem pretty dismal if you look at it from a I just want to mention a couple things that you included there in those victories.
We did a whole episode on LifeWise and the dangers of it.
So friends, if you go to our website and just type in LifeWise, you're going to find a great hour-long episode on LifeWise.
The dangers of LifeWise and how, as you just said, Mickey, it's spreading all over the country in terms of the states.
This is an organization that tells kids to come to release time Christian education during the school day.
So it's like, hey, instead of doing PE or art, why don't you come over here for Bible study?
We're going to have ice cream.
And if you're in third grade, it's kind of hard to resist that.
So you also mentioned the chaplains, replacing school counselors with chaplains.
And I interviewed another state rep about that, James Tallarico down in Texas.
Who talked all about that.
So I think I also interviewed the Tacketts about who are a great couple and activists who are fighting these chaplain bills.
So anyway, all that to say, if you're interested in these things, search our archive because we've got a lot of resources on that and the things Mickey's talking about.
Let's talk about making your voice heard.
We are living in a time when we're seeing protests all over the country.
We're seeing people angry at town halls.
But I think the everyday person sometimes feels a little bit like, hey, I don't know how to get involved.
Is it even worth it?
Should I call?
Should I text?
Should I write a postcard?
Does that do anything?
You have a method that you kind of call lobbying 101.
Would you take us through the first step of that?
You have an acronym you use FORWARD.
And so how does that work?
And what's the first step?
I'm glad we teed up the episode with all of these issues because there's so many problems to choose from on how we can have our voices heard.
But one of the main things that I'm hearing is a state representative from constituencies.
They're pleased with how I'm representing them, but they're saying, what can I do as an individual to affect change at the grassroots level?
Or more commonly, there are people from around the state of Oklahoma who say, mileage And so I wanted to give people an actionable framework where they could actually take some initiative and...
Actually do something, because it's correct.
A lot of times you'll send a letter, especially to your U.S. senator, and you'll get some form letter in return, and you're like, this doesn't make any difference.
Why am I going to waste my time when I'm not getting an actual response back?
And my answer to that is keep doing it, because at the federal level, they're required by law to tally each of the incoming phone calls, emails, messages, and if there's enough of them.
Then the staffer will bump that up to the elected official.
Now, they may not listen to how you want to be voted, how you want them to vote.
However, they're going to get a message in that people are paying attention.
They're going to hold them accountable.
And they're not just going to lay over and get steamrolled while the elected gets to do whatever they want.
That's where the accountability comes in.
And so to tie that all together, I just wanted to create a framework called Forward.
And we'll go into those letters one by one.
But I want to give just a quick...
True life story of a person, a nine-year-old, who actually put this framework into use before I even put it together.
When I was first elected in 2016, I actually received a letter from a nine-year-old, and she said that her and her family went to a Cleveland County Fair.
It's a small county here in Oklahoma.
And they were having a great time doing what you do at a little carny carnival, playing carny games, eating funnel cakes, and having a good time riding rides.
And she came across...
This particular carny booth where these goldfish were being used as prizes.
Half of them were dead, so she felt a moral obligation to play this game numerous times as you do with carny games, and she eventually won a goldfish.
And it was a dirty plastic bag full of hot water, and she rushed him home, put him in clean water, gave him some fish flakes, and named that goldfish Ripples.
And she thought she had a new pet until the next morning she woke up, and unfortunately, Ripples died.
And so she wanted to put that pain into action, and her mom recommended that they pass a state law banning Pets' prizes.
So it's exactly what she did.
She reached out to me.
She told me her story.
I invited them to the Capitol, and we worked with legal staff, and we wrote up for one of my very first laws, or bills, I should say, banning Pets' prizes across the United States.
Well, we submit it, and session gets underway, and the first week of committee work goes by, then the second, and then the third.
And we're on their last week of committee work, and if it doesn't get out of committee, the bill's dead.
So I go to the committee chair and I ask if we could please have a hearing on this particular bill.
And he looked me dead in the eye and he said, Dolenz, we've got bigger fish to fry.
And I had to tell the nine-year-old Kaylee that her bill was going to die because it wasn't a priority in the state of Oklahoma.
And she was crushed, of course, but then we had to adapt.
We had to strategize.
And I said, Kaylee, you're very articulate.
You've got a great story.
And a lot of people resonate with your bill.
Let's see if we can amplify your voice on the local news.
So I got in touch with Channel 4 here in Oklahoma City, and they did a story on her, and they highlighted ripples.
And guess what?
Two days later, I got an email to my Capitol office from a local elected official in Cleveland County and said he'd like to meet with Kaylee and her family.
So we met.
And they were really impressed by Kaylee and her story and what she stood for.
And they banned Petsis prizes in Cleveland County.
And since then, at least two other counties in the state of Oklahoma have banned Petsis prizes.
And while she didn't get everything she wanted, she made a strong step in the right direction.
But even more importantly, she equipped herself with that knowledge and confidence to make change going forward.
And so that's how it ties into my forward framework.
And forward stands for F is find key stakeholders.
And Kaylee did this by reaching out to me, her elected official, and as a result was able to connect with the Cleveland County elected officials.
O and forward stands for organize.
You want to organize your talking points, your messaging, your people power.
But beyond just talking points, you also have your stories in there too.
And organize goes into the process, the procedure.
The research, the evidence, we found that other states have actually banned pets as prizes.
So we were able to take some of those ideas from other states and incorporate them into our Oklahoma law.
And then R, reach out.
What's the most effective way to reach lawmakers?
Bradley, you mentioned, is it email?
Is it phone call?
Is it in person?
Well, in person is great, but especially for our federal electeds, that's going to be impossible for many people.
So the next best is a phone call.
As old school as that sounds, phone calls make a big difference, especially for immediate action.
And then the next, if you want to create a real movement, get a bunch of people to send emails.
You know, they say if you've got one person, if it's just yourself, it's just an idea.
If you've got two people, it's just you and your friend.
But if you've got two people plus you, so three people, now you've got a coalition.
And there's strength in numbers and there's power in coalitions.
And then for the W, you go to watchdog accountability.
You hold them accountable.
You do a better job of following that legislative process.
You're not in that third week of committee work begging the chairman for a hearing.
And then we're going to go down to adapt.
Oftentimes, when it comes to advocacy or citizen lobbying, you don't get exactly what you want.
Like, we got our bill killed, and so we had to adapt, and we reached out to the news to amplify.
Kaylee's voice.
And that's how she was able to R, raise awareness.
And so she was able to sway public opinion.
She was able to reach these lawmakers or these city council members in Cleveland County.
And then the last letter is D, drive change.
And that's what she did on a larger scale with more counties taking up that ordinance.
And now she's there, I think, 19 years old now and still making a difference in their community.
That's kind of a high-level view of the Ford framework, and we can dive into each of those letters at a more nuanced level.
Well, I think that one of the things that is really important for people to do to take that first step, which is F, and it's find your stakeholders, find your lawmakers, is for people to say, okay, who is my representative in the state legislature?
Who's my congressional representative?
Do I have their phone numbers in my phone?
I'm going to put them in there right now.
Andrew Seidel always says, save five phone numbers.
I know other people say that, too.
And I think that's a big one.
I'm wondering if when you do O in that outreach, that phone call, you know, you're a state rep.
Do you feel like you have colleagues who have had a kind of issue that got under their collar, that it was a hot enough issue, a thing that enough people called about where you said, hey, I've seen my peers in the legislature kind of have to reckon with the fact that people just keep calling about this thing.
And I'm going to have to make a decision, a hard decision, even if even if I'm not going to listen.
I know I'm going to take heat for this.
Has that been something you've seen up close and personal?
Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Over my nine years in the state legislature, I will say that public opinion really sways.
Elected officials' votes from the teacher walkout when there were 10,000 teachers in the state capitol demanding that the legislature increase revenue to fund public schools because they couldn't keep their lights on five days a week.
We restored gross production tax, which is an extra tax on the oil and gas industry.
No one thought that that was possible.
I've seen lawmakers as early as a month ago kill their own bills because of the public backlash.
We have kind of a notorious state senator, Dusty Devers, in Oklahoma, who had authored a bill saying that physical therapy, occupational therapy, that type of thing for students with disabilities wasn't the state's obligation.
And he actually wrote a bill to eliminate those kind of health cares for those kids with disabilities.
And people who, beyond just having a family member or a son or a daughter who's on an IEP in public education, it was professionals.
That showed up and advocated on behalf of their industry and their profession and their clients.
And this one particular professional put out a Facebook post that was shared 10,000 times in a matter of a couple of days amongst Oklahoma.
And it got to the point where Senator Devers actually killed his own bill.
He said, I'm going to pull it.
You know, I've gotten a lot of feedback.
And, you know, also the person getting this feedback is his staffers, his legislative assistants.
You have to hear this time and time again.
And so there is a fine line between you don't want to harass the staff or the elected official, but you want to be assertive enough to let them know how important this is.
And oftentimes that persuasion comes down in story format.
And so just like Kaylee's story, it resonated with the electeds as opposed to just ban pets as prizes, but there was no emotional background to it.
So if you combine those elements together, Bradley, to your point, it can move now.
Well, Senator Devers, I'll just say somebody who's covered his career from afar, is not one really known for negotiation or dialogue.
He's a pretty hardline kind of guy.
So for him to get the message and kill the bill is a pretty good example of the kinds of difference that outreach makes.
You know, take us through some other examples and some ways that people might find, you know, I think one of the things people are afraid of is like, I'm going to call, but I don't know what to say.
I'm going to call and I don't know what I'm supposed to tell the person on the other side.
Are there resources people can access so that they can have a script or they can have talking points so that if they're shy, they're not the kind of person who likes to do things like call up other human beings that they don't know and talk?
That we can make this easier on them and something they feel like they can actually do?
That's a great question because it can be a bit intimidating to use a phone these days, especially calling someone at a state capitol or the U.S. capitol.
And I would say start there.
Identify, number one, what your issue is, whether it be Ten Commandment posters in classrooms, school chaplains.
We're talking about maybe you're against life-wise or even school vouchers.
Find out what your particular issue is and then determine whether that's at the local municipal level, the state level.
Or the federal level.
And from there, you can Google, find my legislators, find my elected officials, Oklahoma or Minnesota.
And it will give you a link for whatever state you're in.
And you can put in your address and it will tell you exactly who your elected officials are from your U.S. electeds down to your school board.
And then you can determine who to reach out to.
Now, once you do that, just speak from the heart.
You know, start off with saying, I'm your constituent.
That's going to make a big difference.
And you're going to know that you're talking to the right person because you've done your research and finding who your elected official is.
And then tie that in to a story and why it's important to you.
You want to keep it probably below two minutes.
Ideally, a voicemail would be about a minute long.
And then follow up.
Ask for a return call.
And if you don't get a return from the elected but from their assistant, That's still really valuable because if you are able to build a rapport and relationship with the assistant or a staffer, you're halfway there to having the electeds here because there's so much that they do for us and there's so much trust that we put in our staff that whenever they're able to relay a message from a constituent that has an impactful message or story,
I'm going to find some time to reach out because I may want to talk to them personally.
As a lawmaker, I've had some of my pet protection bills make it into committee, make it onto the House floor, because the assistant to the elected official is passionate about pets.
And they see that it's an important issue to them, and they're able to have the ear of the elected.
And so it makes a big difference.
And so I think a lot of times people get frustrated, they get a bit intimidated.
But if you have it written out and you know what you want to say, just do it.
Along those lines, there's this great app called Five Calls.
And download the app.
It'll give you a variety of issues that are important to you.
And then you can pick which one you want.
And it will automatically connect you to the elected officials who would have power over that bill.
And you can then give your message.
And it actually has templates and scripts that you can use and modify as well.
Do you have thoughts for folks who are thinking about getting involved in, oh, organizing?
And I know that some of it is organizing.
Sorry, I think I messed up your acronym.
I know what I'm trying to say here.
Yeah, O is organize.
Okay, so here's what I'm trying to say is, if I want to not only organize my own thoughts, but if I want to organize with other people, a lot of folks around the country seem like they've had enough and they're finally willing to say, I'm going to leave my house, I'm going to go to a town hall, I'm going to go to an event.
I'm not normally somebody who does that.
I'm not normally somebody who's at a protest or a rally, but...
Things have gotten so dire, so something, I'm willing to do it.
Is there advice for folks that want to try to find like-minded people, you know, in states like Oklahoma or Texas or places where they may feel like they're the minority in their district?
Yeah, there's definitely being part of a coalition or an organization can give you a lot of confidence.
And also they can help lead the way.
For example, at Freedom From Religion Foundation Action Fund.
We have legislative action alerts, and I highly recommend people check this out, ffrfaction.org, and you can put in your address, and it will give you information.
It will give you action alerts on bills that pop up in your state that are rooted in Christian nationalism and problematic for the principle of separation of church and state.
And so being informed is extremely important, and usually you can find an organization.
That champions your issue.
For example, if you're for outlawing child marriage, then you want to go to Unchained.
Put your information on Unchained.
They'll give you updates.
They'll let you know when a bill is coming up that would either advance your cause or push it backwards.
And then you can take action there.
And oftentimes, like with our action alerts, we have a script as well.
You can add your personal touch to it.
You can send an email or you can make a phone call or even better, you can do both.
And one of the new features that we added to our Action page is one of the things that we do that's really effective is we'll write testimony and then we'll also give live testimony in states all around the country, whether it's a Ten Commandments bill in a classroom or a school chaplain bill.
We'll give written testimony.
And one thing that we've started doing recently that's going to be a huge help to people is we've started posting those on our Action website.
So if someone is like, I am against this issue, but I don't really know how to articulate it, I need some good talking points to incorporate my stories into, go to the ffrfaction.org page, and you go to About, and then Issues, and then Testimonies, and then you'll find dozens of testimonies that we've submitted this year alone that will give you a great framework for how to articulate your message for or against these issues.
Yeah, I think that it's just so important for people to find a way into the ecosystem, to feel like they're not alone.
I remember when I lived in Elise Stefanik's district in upstate New York, I would call all the time, but there was moments I felt like I was a lone voice.
And when I connected with other people who were on the same page, it really sort of gave me a boost of momentum.
And I think people are looking for that.
What are some other things that you feel like are effective?
I mean, I think a lot of folks are just wondering.
What does it look like from your viewpoint as a lawmaker or as somebody who is working with FFRF to get folks mobilized and get their voices heard and to fight bad bills?
What are some final thoughts on just the process, on what is effective?
What is a way to stay energized and not feel like you're just full of despair because there's just a lot happening?
What are some just, you know, final takeaways people can take into their daily life and hopefully implement in order to get their voices heard locally, at the state level, at the national level?
Yeah.
Advocacy is a lot of work.
Emotionally, it's taxing.
Physically, it's draining.
And so it's important to recognize your mental health.
Take care of yourself.
Make sure your batteries are charged.
And know that as part of a coalition like Action Fund, you've got people that are working behind the scenes, that are progressing issues forward, they're fighting a bat.
But just know that it's important to take care of yourself.
Otherwise, it's, you know, your self-mental health and your self-care is priority number one.
After that, you know, show up to the town halls.
If your electeds aren't having town halls, request that they have them, even if it's a phone call town hall, which those are much more censured.
But following this framework, finding that issue that you're passionate about, plugging into an organization that champions that issue.
Listening to those action alerts can make you really take part in the process, and it does have an effect.
And for the people who are very, you know, they feel disenfranchised, they're drained, that's understandable.
But know that if everyone just says nothing and does nothing, those electeds who are pushing this type of legislation are going to assume everyone's okay with it, and they're going to do more, and they're going to do more and more and more.
And so that's why it's so important that we have these organizations and podcasts like this to raise awareness around the issues, to help people fight back, to push back, and give them hope going forward.
Wouldn't you say, too, as a state rep, that a lot of districts are won or lost by fewer votes than people think?
The turnout sometimes in these elections is not as high as people assume.
And so mobilizing folks...
In your district can make a difference.
Whether or not it means flipping the district is one thing, but putting pressure on that representative, that state senator, etc., is another thing.
And by simply showing them that, hey, I'm in a quote-unquote deep red district, but there's this group of like 1,000 or 1,500 people that every time I do something, they're clamoring, and they're gaining more people every day.
They got more in their Facebook group.
They got more on their Instagram following.
They got more on social media.
There's more phone calls.
You know, that would seem to me to kind of change the equation a little bit and also just mean that they don't feel like no one's watching.
I feel like human nature, when you feel like no one's watching, you just start to kind of do things that you would normally do, as we're finding out with our, you know, federal leaders using Signal to send out war plans this week.
So, you know, I'm wondering if you have thoughts there.
I'd also wonder if you would just encourage people, because knowing your life story.
You're not somebody who grew up thinking, oh, someday I'll be a senator.
Someday I'll be a rep.
Someday I'll be like, you know, you ran for office after leaving education and having a long journey.
There's a lot of folks out there that I think need to be running for office.
They may be 29 years old and feel like I wasn't ready for that or I'm 31 and I got two kids.
I can't do that.
But I think seeing your story, the answer is yes, you can.
I would highly recommend it.
And especially, as you mentioned, unfortunately, voter turnout isn't that great.
And so if you are someone who's tried to affect change at the grassroots level, you're not getting the results you want, and then you decide you want to run for office, just keep in mind, there's not a ton of people out voting, and you know who the super voters are.
So you can distill that down to where you're going to spend time knocking doors, having these conversations on the doorsteps.
And you can identify those super voters who can get you that much closer to election.
And, you know, keep in mind that you don't have to start off running for U.S. senator.
You could run for local school board, which not a lot of people vote in that.
So if you target the right people and you have those conversations on the doorsteps, you can win a local election.
First time I ever ran for office was a state representative seat.
And as you mentioned, because of revenue failures, there were 800 teachers laid off across Oklahoma.
Unfortunately, I was one of them, so I had eight months to figure it out.
And I spent my days from sunup to pretty much sundown talking to my neighbors and asking for their votes.
And it worked.
And there was no suit on the doorstep.
I actually found that it was helpful for me to look like a letter carrier.
So I wore blue shorts and a white polo, and they thought I was a mailman.
So they'd open up, and then I'd ask for their vote or ask them, what are some issues that are important to you?
But running for office doesn't have to be nearly as intimidating as a lot of people would think, especially if you're running for a state representative seat.
I mean, now, in a state like Texas, it's a little bit different.
They represent 250,000 people at the House level.
So that's, you know, just if you're going to send out one mailer to all of those, you know, to half those people, you're looking at about 100 grand.
But in a state like Oklahoma, I represent 40,000 people.
Out of that, about 20,000 vote.
Out of those, about 10,000 would vote in a midterm.
And then you can narrow it down, depending on your budget, to those who only vote in school board elections.
Go talk to them and then get your volunteers on them.
And then you put out some yard signs and all of a sudden you start to raise public awareness and influence.
You start to get the momentum in your way.
And it's all about compounding.
And I would say that running for office is a lot like being a citizen advocate.
It's small steps, but over time, they add up to compound and to make a big difference.
And it's pretty satisfying to see, because whether you're running for office or advocating for a particular issue, you're going to have setbacks, and you've got to have the ability to adapt and find what works.
I mean, sometimes you may be on the campaign trail, and you get sick or something.
So then you start dialing.
You know, or you have some volunteers go out and just do some door lit, like hang some lit on some doors.
I remember in 16, my opponent actually got bit by a spider, which just sidelined her for about a week and a half.
And so you just never know what can happen on the campaign trail.
But it's something that if anyone does it, I commend them.
It takes a lot of courage.
And it's tough to call and raise money, too.
If you get in that situation, just remember that you're raising money to get your message out.
It's not selfish.
In order to get your message out, you have to have some yard signs, at least a walk card, which is basically an enlarged business card.
And then maybe you can get some radio commercials or something, but probably now more digital, right?
So when you're calling and dialing for dollars, say, hey, here are my ideas.
Here's why I'm running.
But in order to get my message out, it's got to take some money.
And then those friends and families are the first people you're going to reach out to.
They're going to support you.
You know, you can do a lot with a thousand bucks, really.
You can give yourself a personal loan of a thousand bucks if that's available.
But, you know, it's all about persistence and just keeping at it every day.
And even if it's a small, small thing, like maybe you go out and hit 10 doors in one day.
It's a lot better than nothing.
That could be the 10 votes that you need to win.
Well, and I just, again, I think...
No matter what folks listening take away from this conversation, I hope what they take away will be we're in a time when participation is mandatory.
We can't think that our institutions are separate from us, that they will run without us.
And I hope people will see that those on the other side, whether it's the Christian nationalists, whether it's the billionaires who want to control everything, they invest in every...
Ligament, tissue, joint of the American body politic.
It could be PTA.
It could be school board.
It could be county supervisor.
It could be state legislature.
But they see all of those as important.
So if they see that, and they've been able to capture state legislatures across the country, if they've been able to push through the kinds of extremist policies that we have witnessed all over the country...
It should probably clue us into the idea that these positions are really important and it's going to take time.
It's going to take a lot to run for office or simply to get involved and to advocate in my district.
But it's so worth it.
And I love talking to representatives like you in states like Oklahoma where people, you know, are fighting the good fight and they often are not seen.
They're often not heard.
People have an idea of red states or others as just...
And, you know, we on this show try to remind people as often as we can.
It's just not true.
So all that to say, Mickey, thanks for coming back.
Thanks for talking with me.
Thanks for the work you're doing at FFRF and in the Oklahoma legislature, where are ways people can connect with the work you're doing and hopefully get involved in one way or another.
Bradley, thank you so much for having me on the show.
And for everyone listening, connect with me on Instagram, Twitter, Mickey Dollins.
But more importantly, check out the Freedom From Religion Foundation's website, ffrf.org.
We've got some great resources there for people from our action alerts to our public testimony.
We also have our annual convention coming up this October in Myrtle Beach.
It's going to be really exciting.
I know we've got a great...
Agenda planned out.
And last year in Denver, we both had the opportunity to go and you presented an awesome presentation.
And we had about 800 people there.
So excited to see members again at Myrtle Beach and hopefully a few new ones there too.
So thank you all for listening.
Reach out to ffrf.org and you can find me on social media.
M-I-C-K-U-I-D-O-L-L-E-N-S.
Well, first of all, I'm jealous because Denver was great.
I had such a great time.
You were there.
We got to have lunch and hang out with a bunch of folks, Catherine Stewart and some really just amazing people.
And Denver's awesome, so shout out to Denver.
You guys are great.
But, you know, Myrtle Beach, that sounds nice.
I don't know.
I mean, I'm a little bit, you know, I'm a little bit miffed.
Myrtle Beach sounds pretty good.
As always, friends, we'll be back Wednesday with It's in the Code and Friday, the weekly roundup.
We have some special series running, so make sure to check out what's happening on Thursday because you won't want to miss it.
We have some things going on exactly along the lines of what we talked about today.
Red state religions, people who are liberal and progressive religious folks and communities in red states who are fighting for marriage equality, reproductive rights, voting rights, gender-affirming care, and so on and so on.
So, check that out.
All right, y 'all.
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