Christian Nationalists, Networked Cities, and Reverse Diaspora + The FSU Shooter's White Christian Nationalism
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Brad discusses the current trends in Christian nationalism with Kiera Butler of Mother Jones. They talk about Andrew Isker and C.Jay Engel's plans to build a Christian nationalist society in Tennessee, funded by venture capitalists. Isker's antisemitic and anti-Civil Rights Act views are highlighted as they explore the similarities between these Christian enclaves and tech-driven network cities. The discussion includes the impact of recent tragic events at Florida State University and the socio-political implications of such movements.
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Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
Today, I am joined by Keira Butler of Mother Jones to talk about network cities and freedom cities.
The former are proposed by technocrats who want to form autonomous
separate from
The latter are the idea of Christian nationalists.
They follow the blueprint of the American readout.
Christians who would self-sort themselves into Christian societies with homogeneous values and ideas.
People who are, in essence, leaving mainstream America.
I talked with Kira about this because she just wrote a piece about Andrew Isker and C.J. Engel, two pastors who have decided to build a Christian National Society in North Central Tennessee.
Some of you will remember we talked about this months ago, in November of 2024.
Phil Williams, the legendary investigative reporter from Nashville, broke the story, and we discussed the ways that Andrew Isker's This idea to build a society in Tennessee was funded by Christian nationalists with venture capital money.
This is not a libertarian vision in the sense that they want a laissez-faire government, a hands-off approach so that everyone can do simply what they want.
This is a big government approach, one where a company would literally own the country in which you live, would set the rules, have the power, and your only choice would be to accept it or to leave.
The other would be a Christian nationalist society, governed according to myopic rules about gender and sex and family, built around the heteronormative ideas of the religious right, and formed with a semi-theocratic regime in mind.
Now, before I speak to Kira, I want to talk about what happened at Florida State last week and the tragic shooting there.
Unfortunately, there's a direct link between the Christian nationalists in Tennessee and the FSU shooter.
And that link is antisemitism.
I'm Brad Onishi, and this is Straight White American Jesus.
American Jesus
It's great to be with you on this Monday.
I'm Brad Onishi.
Thank you for joining me.
I'm going to bring in Kira Butler here in one second.
And we're going to talk about her new piece at Mother Jones about network cities and freedom cities.
Before we do that, I want to talk about what happened at Florida State.
We have yet another tragic shooting.
We have at least two who have died and others who are injured.
Once again, it feels as if our educational settings are the least safest place in the country.
We now know that the shooter has made what appear to be white nationalist comments and supported white nationalist ideas in the past.
One of the leaders of a conservative group on campus at FSU said that he was asked to leave because he was promoting in the group was not conservatism, but something more akin to white nationalism.
One of the things that caught my eye, and other people have noticed this, is that on his Instagram, he had the verse, Jeremiah 5120 pinned to his Instagram profile.
Now, Jeremiah 5120 is a verse that was used by a group called The Order.
The Order was a white nationalist, white Christian identity group in the Pacific Northwest in the early 1980s.
They were influenced by the Aryan Nations and the Christian identity movement that existed in Idaho there.
The order disbanded and actually was snuffed out by the FBI after it murdered one person and committed a series of bank robberies and other things.
But the verse, Jeremiah 5120, is a war verse.
It's about destroying and warring and violently exterminating.
It's one that is based on attack.
It's a verse based on shattering those who are not God's people.
The FSU shooter seems to have taken up this cultural symbol.
I have no info on whether or not he was part in any formal way of a white nationalist or white Christian nationalist group.
What I do know is that this does not feel like an accident.
I bring this up because The Order,
the group that used this verse as their symbol and actually appeared on their official symbol for their group, were thoroughly, overwhelmingly anti-Semitic.
They not only saw people of color and immigrants as problematic, but they were primarily focused on Jews.
I bring that up because today when I talk to Keira Butler, you're going to hear us talk about Andrew Isker and C.J. Engel.
And just recently, They have been hosting and platforming, thoroughgoing, Holocaust-denying, anti-Semitic figures.
People who are saying things that are truly despicable about Jewish people.
Saying that the Jews run the world.
That they are the ones who killed Jesus.
That they need to be blamed for what's happening in the world.
Engel and Isker seem to be adopting KKK theology.
A really hardcore supersessionist understanding of Christianity.
One that says after Jesus, there's no need for the Jews.
And in fact, the Jews might be worse than those polytheists like the Hindus or non-believers like the atheists because they had all the chances in the world to believe in the Messiah and they still missed it.
And as those who turned against Jesus, they've now turned against everyone.
and they are conspiring to rule over all of not only Christian society, but those of European descent.
Engel and Isker have landed at a place of thoroughgoing anti-Semitism
And the governor in Pennsylvania, of course, being a Jewish person named Josh Shapiro.
So when I see what happened at FSU, my alarm bells go off.
I see the direct connections between pastors and leaders like Isker and Engel platforming anti-Semites.
Taking on anti-Semitic rhetoric as their own.
And what happens when a young person is influenced and convinced to take that ideology into their own hands against their classmates?
I don't think I have to tell anyone listening that we live in an age of ascending Christian nationalism, but I think there's a word that we should probably use more often, and that's Christian supremacy.
Christian supremacy is not only the idea that Christians are better than others, but It's the active subjugation of others in the name of Christ.
I see that in Engel.
I see that in The Order.
And I see that inspiration in the FSU shooter.
I'm going to turn now to my discussion with Kira about Freedom Cities, about Network Cities, and the resonances between them.
Appreciate you all listening.
I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
Brad Onishi, great to be with you on this Monday.
As I'm just, excuse me, as I just said, I'm here with a first-time guest, someone who I'm so glad to get to talk to today, and that's Kira Butler from Mother Jones.
So, Kira, thanks for coming by to talk to me.
Thanks so much for having me.
We're here to talk about your piece, about network cities, freedom cities.
The reverse diaspora of Christians self-sorting themselves into various parts of the country, and today we're talking about Tennessee.
Folks heard us first talk about this back in November off of a Phil Williams story that was all about Andrew Isker, C.J. Engel, and the kind of folks behind them.
I think a lot of us have been thinking through the similarities and resonances between the kind of tech utopian visions and
the Christian Andrew Isker.
He is a pastor.
And he is originally from Minnesota.
He is also the author of a book called The Boniface Option.
I might be mispronouncing that.
I've only ever read it.
I haven't heard it pronounced.
But he, in this book, kind of advocated for a Christian exit from not only the United States, but sort of also our culture generally.
And he, I think it was maybe a year and a half, two years ago, announced that he would be moving
His family, he has a bunch of kids, that they would be moving to rural Tennessee, to Appalachia, in order to kind of achieve, you know, put his money where his mouth is, basically, and achieve this Christian exit that he had written about in the book.
He's from Minnesota, which, as far as the upper Midwest goes, is kind of as blue as it gets, diamond blue.
But he gives these reasons for wanting to leave there.
And I'm
I'm wondering if you might go through some of those, because to me, I'm not going to lie, and you reported on this deeply, you have dug in.
Whenever I hear Andrew Isker talk about leaving Minnesota, it sounds very fabricated as like something you would read out of a culture war comic book.
But what is his reason for leaving?
And do you believe him?
Because I don't think I do.
Yeah, I mean, I guess I believe him in that.
I think that his, you know, this is...
Something that he genuinely believes in.
You know, I think he is a true believer.
But basically, you know, I agree with you that his reasons for leaving seem a little exaggerated, over-the-top, stereotypically Christian nationalist, which, you know, that's not a term that I'm applying to him.
He actually calls himself a Christian nationalist.
He objects to Tim Waltz's progressive policies.
And in particular, he has said that he's very concerned about he has one of his kiddos is autistic and was in a day program for autistic children special needs program.
And he talked about how he was worried that they were going to make his child transgender in this program that he was in.
Then he wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
And if he tried, then CPS would come and take his kid away from him.
This scenario has no basis in anything that has ever happened.
I want to be completely clear.
We all worry about our kids.
If you're a parent, you worry about your kids every day and every night.
If you're the parent of someone who is autistic or has other special needs, etc., the worry, the concern when they go to school, etc., is only amplified.
By no means am I making light of any of that.
But as you say, the idea that their child would be, quote unquote, made transgender without him knowing it and then be taken away from them because he wouldn't allow it or something, it just sounds so much like a caricature that there's no basis in reality.
There's no basis of this happening in Minnesota public schools.
It just sounds like a reason to say, that's it, folks.
We had to pick up and leave and get out of that woke communist hellhole that is...
What everyone thinks of when they think of Minnesota and just make our way to Tennessee.
We were just forced.
We're refugees.
We're Christian refugees.
We had to do it.
Yeah, it does.
It does seem like it given especially the book that he wrote, it seems like and, you know, this move came after the book.
So it does seem like, you know, he was using those talking points kind of to make this.
And he, you know, made a splashy announcement on he also does a podcast called Country Mortar.
And he made, you know, big announcements about leaving Minnesota.
So I can definitely see what you mean, that it seems a little bit, like, yeah, showy.
Yeah. And, yeah, the podcast is also, like, on election night, they did a nine-hour livestream.
And they had, like, the who's who of reformed Doug Wilson protege Christian nationalists.
So Stephen Wolf dropped by.
Charles Haywood, the warlord, hung out for a little bit.
So it was a good time.
It was just a really...
William Wolfe, who just wrote an op-ed with Kevin Roberts, said that Donald Trump should go full Red Caesar.
So it's just a cute little podcast, just really kind of a fun little side project.
They were like, you know, as they say, having a normal one.
Just what they do.
All right.
His move is not simply Andrew Isker meeting up with his buddy, C.J. Engel.
Who's in Tennessee already and them saying, hey, we're pals, let's form a little Christian community.
There's more to it than that.
And I'm wondering if you can tell us about the money and the organization behind his exit to Tennessee.
Yeah, I would love to talk about that because as I was putting the piece together, it was actually one of the things that was the most confusing to me to try to untangle the relationship between the community that Isker is founding.
And the kind of greater real estate project that it is a part of.
So basically, long story short, is that there is an investment firm and real estate agency, organization, real estate investment firm, let's say, called New Founding.
This is the project of some Claremont Institute alums, Nate Fisher and Josh Abitoy.
These folks, your listeners might also be Familiar with them as the founders of American Reformer, which is an online magazine that is kind of dedicated to the reformed Christian movement.
So, you know, it's an interesting company.
Their investments are pretty diverse.
You know, a number of Christian businesses.
But one of their, I would say probably their biggest project is what they call the Highland Rim Project.
And this is, they are buying up land in Appalachia, in Tennessee and Kentucky.
And they sort of describe it on their website as, you know, a spot for, you know, Heritage America, you know, a place where people with aligned values can come together.
And, you know, it's an explicitly Christian project as well.
When I got in touch with Josh Abatoy about this, he...
He didn't really want to comment on anything Isker has said.
You know, Isker has made some anti-Semitic remarks.
He's kind of an online firebrand.
He really says some very provocative things that go sort of beyond, I think, what newfounding an American reformer would say in terms of slurs and stuff like that.
But Abitoy described Isker as a customer.
And so...
You know, I think in his view, like, this is, Isker has bought land from Newfounding and is starting a church in the community, is right now leasing the church.
And this project of creating this Christian community, Isker's Christian community that his podcast co-host CJ Engel is also involved in, that is separate from Newfounding, according to Josh Abitoy.
So it's interesting.
It's like related, deeply, deeply entwined.
But kind of officially, they have this kind of level of distance.
Just to go back to Isker.
So let's make sure we all got it straight.
Isker is leaving Minnesota to join his friend CJ Engel.
They have this podcast, Country Moondum, where they hang out.
They look exactly like you would think reformed Theobros would.
They dress the part.
They have the mustaches, they have the side parts, they have all of it.
And they are claiming that what they're going to do in sort of central northern Tennessee is create self-enclosed, semi-autonomous Christian communities where people's values and beliefs and ways of life can coalesce without the interference of those pesky others who might believe differently,
worship differently, look differently, and so on.
And Engel's comments regarding anti-Semitism are just really worth bringing up because he has not ventured casually into anti-Semitism.
He has not let it slip.
You know, once or twice he used a word maybe he shouldn't have.
And he has hosted people on the Contramoon podcast who have made their careers denying the Holocaust, saying that what happened in World War II did not happen, that Hitler got a bad deal.
That the whole history of American intervention into World War II was a mistake.
And indeed, we might have fought on the wrong side and we might have lost.
And so anyway, that's just worth pointing out.
I mean, this is not a guy who dabbles in anti-Semitism or lets it slip.
He's invested in what I would call KKK theology.
Well, yes.
And Isker, Isker also does not just casually dabble in anti-Semitism.
He also wrote a book before, I think before his Boniface Option book with Andrew Turbaugh.
You know, the other thing that's important to bring up about Andrew Isker is that he has talked about how he wants to repeal the Civil Rights Act.
He's called America a gynocracy.
You know, he has expressed He has, yeah, he's said that he hopes that the 19th Amendment would be repealed.
So this, you know, this is a guy who kind of, he delights in making these very, very provocative statements on social media.
So there's this ambiguous relationship connected but not officially linked of the Highland Rim Project, new founding, and what Isker's doing with this church and with the kind of plan to create this.
Christian Nationalist Enclave in Tennessee.
Tell us more about New Founding and the ways that it caught your attention, because it really signifies a step in the direction of venture capital, tech money, and other approaches that we're just not used to seeing with the kind of Doug Wilson set.
Yeah. So, and Josh Abattoi, in my exchange with him, he actually clarified, I think in a previous piece I had...
Called him a Theobro and called him a Doug Wilson acolyte.
And he said, you know, that's not me.
He said, I'm a Baptist.
But it's interesting because he runs American Reformer, which this is their whole project.
So, you know, it's the kind of Venn diagrams are really, really interesting.
But I guess to more directly answer your question about New Founding, it's interesting to me exactly for that reason, that it represents the kind of crossover.
Between the Christian nationalist, you know, Reformed Christian, Theobro's movement, and the tech world.
You know, there's Nate Fisher, who is one of the founders of New Founding.
He is an investor.
He has invested in Pronomos Capital, which is Patri Friedman's kind of startup societies fund.
You know, Nate Fisher is a guy who is very, very keyed in to what is going on in Silicon Valley.
Let's make that connection.
So can you help us if folks are kind of trying to keep up with the names and all the networks?
We have, you know, on one side we have New Founding, these folks who are Claremont grads, explicitly Christian in their identity, going the way of setting up kind of venture capital and Silicon Valley-esque forms of funding,
but they're mixing with the likes of Patrick Friedman and Pronomos.
And if you're wondering, friends, yes, that Friedman is related to that Milton Friedman, and that's a whole other story.
We're not going to do it, but you can go chase that down.
Go ahead.
Have fun tonight.
Just have a wild Friday.
It's going to be so fun.
But would you mind helping us understand, like, what is the mixing that's happening between, like, Pronomos and New Founding?
what are the two worlds colliding there?
So, well, I think that there's just to take one step back.
You know, this new founding, this particular part of the Theobro movement, I think they're very...
Happy to see J.D. Vance in the White House.
This is going to sound like a little bit of a tangent, but I'm going to try to make it all connect back.
So J.D. Vance is a guy who also kind of, he's Catholic, you know, he doesn't share all of their beliefs, but he also is a guy who kind of straddles the worlds of kind of trad, you know, religiosity, Christianity, and Silicon Valley tech stuff.
And indeed, J.D. Vance has connections to the new founding guys.
So there's a guy named Chris Buskirk, who is on the board of American Reformer.
And Chris Buskirk helped to found a group called the Rockbridge Network that got together a bunch of big-name Silicon Valley investors to become Republican donors, donors for Trump.
And J.D. Vance was a co-founder with him.
You know, I guess that only complicates things to add in this layer that not only is it this overlap between Silicon Valley and the Christian nationalists, Theobros, whatever you want to call it, but also, you know, you have the Trump administration.
You have politics at the highest, highest level.
So to take a step back again and answer your original question, the connection between Pernomos Capital.
And newfounding.
So Pernomos Capital is the project of this guy, Patrick Friedman.
Some of your listeners might have heard of him in conjunction with the Seasteading Institute, where he wanted to basically build new cities at sea.
It didn't work.
A Peter Thiel supported...
Patrick Friedman is, yes, in the lineage of Milton Friedman, but when it comes to money and patronage, is really the son of Peter Thiel, as is J.D. Vance.
Yes. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it.
So, you know, after, or maybe, actually, I don't know the timeline of this, so I won't say after, but he's the guy behind Seasteading Institute.
He also is the main guy behind Pernomus Capital, which is a capital firm dedicated to making these startup, what they call startup societies.
And, you know, that connection to me was really interesting because if you think about, you know, what...
Andrew Isker is doing, and kind of more so what Josh Abitoy and Nate Fisher at New Founding are doing.
That's what it is.
You know, it's a startup society.
It's not really the same as seasteading.
It's not really totally the same as other famous examples of this kind of thing.
You know, I think a lot of people have heard of Prospera, which is this, you know, island deregulated economic zone in Honduras.
It's not exactly the same as that, but, you know, that...
I think an important point about the Startup Society's movement is that these folks have a very expansive vision for, you know, what these projects can look like.
And honestly, you know, what a lot of it comes down to is deregulated zones, you know, places where the rules of, you know, whatever adjacent country is there won't in some ways apply.
Yeah, and I think if we just simplify, if you're listening and you're thinking, hey, I'm driving my car, I'm doing my dishes, I can't keep the chart of Pronomos and New Founding and Abattoi, Fisher, Friedman, everybody together.
I think the way to break this down is to say, look, we have these deep resonances between what feel like unlikely alliance partners, and that is Christian nationalists like Andrew Isker.
Who are saying, hey, I'm leaving Minnesota to go to Tennessee in a reverse diaspora because I want to start a Christian community that, as you just said, Kira, is deregulated and is where people who, quote, share my way of life can really build their families and their churches and so on.
The tech guys who are almost all, if not all, in somehow,
Related to, in terms of funding, in terms of influence Peter Thiel, whether that's Friedman, whether that's J.D. Vance, whether that's others, there's this movement on their part for these network cities that are deregulated zones where they can get away from all the regulation and law and other demands of American government and life or other governments and life.
So the resonances are clear.
Like, what we have are two groups that are like...
Our answer to the current situation is not to necessarily reform or save America or take America back to its Pax Americana in the 1950s, but to simply say, we're going to create our own autonomous societies.
And if you want to come hang out, come hang out.
If not, that's your choice.
Does that sound like a fair summation of the kind of resonances between these two, these network cities and these Christian nationalist freedom cities?
What else do I need to add or what else do we need to understand here?
I guess there's, you know, one other piece, and I don't know if this will help clarify things or further complicate them for your listeners, but there's, during the time that he was campaigning, I think this may have been in 2023, President Trump talked about this idea of freedom cities.
And the idea was that...
He would kind of annex federal land to become deregulated zones.
And some of the folks in the network state world, they really latched on to this idea.
They're really hoping that it happens.
And just in the last few months, they've formed groups to advocate.
One of these groups is called the Frontier Foundation, and they, you know, drafted an open letter, you know, you know, they're going on social media and talking about how great Freedom Cities would be.
Josh Abitoy is a member of that group.
And I asked Josh Abitoy because I did, I noticed that he was part of that group in addition to being, you know, the founder of New Founding.
And I said, you know, could you ever imagine one of the Highland Rim Project or parts of the Highland Rim Project land?
Being leased back to the government and becoming, you know, one of these deregulated zones, these freedom cities that Trump has talked about.
And his answer was like, no, you know, no plans for that right now, but you never know.
I'm paraphrasing.
That wasn't exactly what he said, but yeah.
But I mean, on that, yeah, there's just so many things there that are so interesting.
My brain is like exploding in terms of the idea that you would buy up hundreds or thousands of acres and then the government would Lease it from you in order to make it a zone not controlled or regulated by the government.
Yeah, this sounds great.
We're doing great, everyone.
This is awesome.
I'm really loving this timeline.
Really, really smart stuff.
So one of the things that drives me crazy is that people think that the deregulation in the Christian nationalist borough or the networked city of the technocrat is a libertarian.
And it's to me and for my eyes, it is not.
So what I mean by that is they don't want the regulation of the state of Minnesota or the city of Los Angeles.
It doesn't mean they're libertarian like, oh, yeah, we're going to have a zone that is just laissez-faire.
Everybody do what they want.
The government is really only there to keep invaders out.
This is libertarian to the core.
If you want to be married to five people, if you want to marry a rock.
If you want to take hallucinatory drugs, who cares?
It's all good.
We're libertarian.
The vision is not libertarian.
It's deregulate from the American version and then regulate according to a very active and myopic Christian nationalist vision or give all the power to the technocrat who runs the monopoly that owns your state.
And if you don't like it, you can leave.
None of that to me is libertarian.
It drives me nuts when we still have these old categories of like, well, they're conservative.
They must think like Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan and just want laissez-faire capitalism.
That's all they want.
And they want the most regulated, menacing big government they can find and they can imagine.
It's just the kind that is either more like Christendom.
In the medieval world, or more like a technocratic dystopia, where a corporation owns your life, not some sort of socialist state a la the Soviet Union or China, etc.
Am I wrong?
You know, you tell me if I missed it or if you disagree.
What do we need to fill out that whole piece?
Well, I agree with you because, you know, I think the whole idea of these network states is that they are...
It's not that there will be no laws in them.
It's that there are groups of like-minded people, and this could be Christian nationalists or just one example.
It could be a bunch of people who are really, really interested in gene editing and in embryo selection.
And it could be a place where they say, And like before people say that I'm like a conspiracy theorist, like this is purely speculative.
But, you know, just as an example, like thought experiment, you know, it could be a place where they say, you know, like in this place, we only select, everybody does IVF, we only select the embryos that are, you know, that our scientists say will be the most intelligent, and we discard the rest,
you know.
Or, you know, it could be a place where like everybody gets gene editing to...
Live to age 130 or whatever, you know.
And I, you know, I would agree with you that that doesn't doesn't really sound libertarian in the traditional sense to me.
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All right.
I've taken up too much of your time, Kira.
I'm so glad for you to stop by and talk to us about your piece.
And, you know, you've done so many other, so much great writing on these things at Mother Jones.
Where are places people can find you?
And what should we be looking for you coming next?
I'm just always at Mother Jones.
That's where I am.
You can find me on X and on Blue Sky.
And if you have tips for me, I'm also, my Proton mail is in my bio on my social media, and I have Signal, and if you DM me, I can give you my Signal as well.
Good stuff.
As always, friends, we'll be back Wednesday with It's In The Code and Friday with The Weekly Roundup.
I want to thank you for listening.
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