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March 14, 2025 - Straight White American Jesus
01:04:12
Weekly Roundup: The Arrest of Mahmoud Khalil is an Extension of Project of 2025
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Time Text
Axis Mundy Axis Mundy In your estimation, what crime did Mahmoud Khalil commit to warrant his arrest, detention, and eventual revocation of his credit card?
Let me tell you something.
I went face down to the angry mob at Columbia at the height of that stuff.
When the pro-Palestinian, pro-Hamas...
Protesters were there.
I'm telling you, this is my own observation, not something I read in the newspaper.
It was dangerous.
I met with Jewish students before we went to campus who were hauled away off campus because they were instructed by the administration not to come to class, which they paid for, for fear of their physical safety.
The administrators there refused to take control of that campus.
They refused to allow the police department to come in and take control, and it turned into chaos.
The president has since been removed, and now they've got the same problem again.
Columbia and other universities.
They have to keep control of campus.
The first responsibility of an administration is ensuring the safety of the students who are paying tuition to be there, for crying out loud.
This madness has to stop.
We have to get control of it.
This guy apparently was a mastermind of those very things when the gnashing of teeth and the ripping of clothes and the people screaming at me wanting to rip me limb from limb because I was there talking about moral clarity and how there's a right and a wrong.
They were doing that.
They disrupted the campus.
They were threatening physical violence to their fellow students.
If you're on a student visa, I'm going to say this clearly, if you're on a student visa and you're in America and you're an aspiring young terrorist who wants to prey upon your Jewish classmates, you're going home.
We're going to arrest your tail, and we're going to send you home where you belong.
And this is just getting started.
So, look, I appreciate free speech.
I used to defend it in courts, but this is far beyond the pale of that.
When you are threatening your classmates and spewing anti-Semitism and all this hatred, it's enough.
And I think the American people understand that.
They're supporting it, and I'm glad we have a president who's strong enough to lay down the law.
That is Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, talking about Mahmoud Khalil, the activist who was arrested this week in New York City and quickly sent to a jail in Louisiana.
Khalil is a green card holder married to a U.S. citizen.
Nonetheless, he's been arrested.
And as you just heard, Mike Johnson cannot name the crime he committed.
There's no sense of him having done something criminally wrong.
It seems more that he's been arrested because of his political views.
And his activism on the part of pro-Palestinian student groups.
Today, we demonstrate the connections between the targeting of an activist like Khalil and Project Esther, an addendum to Project 2025 published by the Heritage Foundation.
That's right.
The Christian nationalist connections to this arrest are clear and direct, with lines leading right up to the Trump administration and the president himself.
We'll outline what's in Project Esther and then go into some happenings at the Department of Education, Oklahoma, and the Christian nationalist attempts to shutter public schools and to erase all measures of what education is in the United States.
I'm Brad Onishi, and this is Straight White American Jesus.
Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
My name's Brad Onishi.
Great to be with you on this Friday.
Joined today by my co-host.
Dan Miller, professor of religion and social thought at Landmark College.
Also, Brad is always glad to be with you on a Friday.
Spring break this week.
What did you do?
Did you go to Miami Beach?
Are there like videos of you just hanging out at the beach?
Like, you know, margaritas, beer pong?
Rocking the dad bod, you know, down on the beach.
It's what we do.
Yeah, there's probably some wild videos of, you know, dodgeball last night and the day that I spent at the public library working to try to change it up.
So yeah, I'm living on the edge, man.
Public library.
And I remember to pay the meter.
Like that's, you know, stuff like that.
So I didn't run afoul of the law.
So yeah, I'm living on the edge here in Amherst.
Real quick, last week our bonus episode had like three minutes cut out and it was this really key three minutes of like Dan telling a story about getting hit on at church when he was 19 by a middle-aged woman and it was a whole deal.
And I had to like put that in the Discord so people could actually listen and stuff.
But, you know, somebody in the Discord made this great comment of like, oh, we're missing like part of the story.
Where is it?
And someone was like, oh, it's probably reserved for only Dan's.
And then I was like, man, what is only Dan's?
It's just like Dan playing dodgeball and getting cargo shorts and just like living it up.
So this week, as always, heavy stuff to talk about and things that are of great importance.
The Democrats right now are trying to figure out if they're going to vote for the CR bill to keep the government open.
We don't know what's going to happen yet, so we're not talking about it because we don't know yet.
But we do want to talk about...
Something that I think is on the minds of many of you, and that is the arrest of Mahmoud Khalil in New York City.
We'll get there, go through the details.
And guess what?
Guess what, Dan?
Guess what?
There's good reason to believe that targeting someone like Khalil, a green card holder, a pro-Palestinian activist, comes from tried and true Christian nationalists at the Heritage Foundation, a.k.a.
the publishers of Project 2025. Hang in there for that story.
We're also going to talk about some Department of Ed issues that I think are going under the radar and are, again, related to Christian nationalism in Oklahoma and other places.
Dan's going to take us through what's happening there.
And I think it's important because a lot of people talk about closing the Department of Ed, but I'm not sure that the average...
Suburban parent knows what that means.
Like, does your average suburban parent know what it means if they say they're going to close the Department of Ed?
They might look at you like, who cares?
Our school district does this.
So I think it's good to keep these matters in front of us.
And they, of course, have to do with Christian nationalist attempts to shutter public schools.
So with all that said, let's jump into the story of Mahmoud Khalil and what happened this week.
Khalil was arrested Dan on his way back to his apartment.
He is a pro-Palestinian activist at Columbia University, somebody who has been one of the more prominent leaders of the negotiations with the university about divesting from certain funds, somebody who's played an integral role in the pro-Palestine protests.
Some things to know about him is he was born in A Syrian refugee camp.
He is a Palestinian who has been fighting for Palestinian rights for a long time.
He met his now wife in, excuse me, about seven years ago.
They married and now live in New York City.
She is an American citizen.
So that is all there front and center.
A couple of things I think that...
That we want to note about this case.
I'm sure that a lot of you listening have also listened to other pods and other news clips and are aware of some of the main kind of details of the case.
He's been taken from New York City to a jail in Louisiana, about 1200 miles from where he lives.
His lawyer called this a blatantly improper but familiar tactic designed to frustrate the New York federal court's jurisdiction and isolate Mahmoud from his lawyers, his home, and his local community of support.
His wife is eight months pregnant, so that is something to think about as well.
He is a green card holder, so this is not somebody here who's on a student visa, and we will get to that in a minute.
About him, here's what Secretary of State Marco Rubio said.
The U.S. will revoke green cards of anyone who, quote, supports Hamas to sustain the lawful list of Khalil.
Excuse me, I'm getting ahead of myself.
Revoke the green cards of anyone who supports Hamas.
And that includes pro-jihadist protesters, quote, unquote.
Now, I think the thing that we all want to make clear here is that what...
Rubio, what Trump, what Johnson, what Vance, what the entire MAGA orbit wants to do is make two categories into one.
If you are somebody who leads protests in favor of Palestinian rights, of trying to prevent Palestinian genocide, if you somehow advocate for Palestine in any way, the move is that you are pro-Hamas.
That is what they're trying to do.
And we've talked about this in the past.
We've talked about it with Nikki Haley.
We've talked about it in the run-up to the election.
This is something we've talked about.
Dan's nodding his head.
I got, like, a bunch I want to jump into with Mike Johnson, but does that collapsing of two categories sound right to you, Dan?
What is there to add there?
Yeah, I mean, one, I'll just say that this is, when it comes to all things, I think, pro-Israel and anti-Muslim, right, on the right?
We can all go all the way back to 2001 and the so-called War on Terror.
So like anything that was opposed to U.S. interactions or U.S. actions in Iraq or Afghanistan, oh, you're pro-terrorist, you're pro-terror, you are pro-whatever, like collapsing all of that.
Again, I don't think any of these protesters were celebrating or advocating the taking of any lives, including Palestinian lives.
But yeah, it's the equation.
Drawing the equivalence that all Palestinians are basically Hamas.
And so if you argue for anything in favor of Palestine, you're pro-Hamas, you're pro-terrorist.
We're going to get into some comments from Mike Johnson a little bit later where that kind of conflation of categories is there.
And I think the trick just to recognize is that that's not an accident.
It's not accidental to conflate that.
This is how they are...
Trying to do away with free speech.
Oh, we support free speech.
Of course we support free speech, but, like, you're supporting terrorism.
They didn't support terrorism.
They opposed the actions of Israel.
That's the difference.
And so if you can say that this was about defending terrorism, advocating violence, etc., then you can try to sidestep the issue of free speech and so forth, which is a right.
And so, yeah, I think that that collapsing, to recognize the collapse of categories is key, and I think to recognize that it's very, very intentional is also really important.
We've talked about this in the past, that there's a use of anti-Semitism as a pretext to label you as anti-American.
And, you know, that's on the table with what happened with Mahmoud Khalil.
I think the free speech angle of this is huge, also the attacking of universities.
I mean, Columbia University is in absolute turmoil, it seems to me, for a number of reasons, but this is one of them.
But let's focus on Mike Johnson and the Christian nationalist elements of this, Dan, because I think that's something we can bring to the table that others may not.
I want to thank someone who's been in conversation with me about important things for a number of months, somebody who's in our Discord, but also independently I communicate with.
I'm not going to say their name, but I will say just thank you for your sharing of information and research.
You are a dogged researcher and you are of great help in putting all this together this week and helping me understand.
A lot of the dynamics.
So here is Mike Johnson.
Here's a clip of Mike Johnson.
Dan asked about what crimes Mahmoud Khalil had committed.
This guy apparently was a mastermind of those very things when the gnashing of teeth and the ripping of clothes and the people screaming at me wanting to rip me limb from limb because I was there talking about moral clarity and how there's a right and a wrong.
They were doing that.
They disrupted the campus.
They were threatening physical violence to their fellow students.
If you're on a student visa...
I'm going to say this clearly.
If you were on a student visa and you're in America and you're an aspiring young terrorist who wants to prey upon your Jewish classmates, you're going home.
We're going to arrest your tail and we're going to send you home where you belong.
And this is just getting started.
So, look, I... I appreciate free speech.
I used to defend it in courts.
But this is far beyond the pale of that.
When you are threatening your classmates and spewing anti-Semitism and all this hatred, it's enough.
And I think the American people understand that.
They're supporting it.
And I'm glad we have a president who's strong enough to lay down the law.
So Johnson can't say what crimes.
He can't say like, oh, he did this.
He can't say that this is a green card holder who attacked someone violently.
This is a green card holder who threatened another person.
This is not a green card holder, Dan.
Who's a spy?
Who is working on behalf of another government?
This is a green card holder who's undertaking espionage.
Nope.
And I want to just note quickly that Steve Ladek, who's a legal scholar, has noted all over the place this week, NPR, Daily Beast, everywhere.
To sustain the lawful list of Khalil's arrest, the government has to identify the specific basis on which it believes that Khalil is subject to removal.
And we're going to get more to that.
Okay, but what we have here is Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, saying, I'm not sure if he committed a crime or this or that, but he was, and all right, y'all, you ready?
This guy apparently was a mastermind of those very things when the gnashing of teeth and the ripping of clothes and the people screaming at me, wanting to rip me limb from limb because I was there talking about moral clarity and Heather's right and wrong.
Just to jump in on that, there's a difference between feeling fear and being threatened.
Those are not always the same thing.
And if you're a Mike Johnson and every time you see, I don't know, pro-Palestinians or Muslims or people of color and it scares you, it doesn't mean that you're actually being threatened.
And let's break down what he's saying, Dan.
I mean, tell me if you agree with this.
He's basically saying, Mahmoud, I mean, if we take Mike Johnson at his word.
All right, Mike, let's take your reasoning at your word.
You ready?
So you're saying that you, an elected official, got yelled at on your way to give a lecture, and thus that is the basis for somebody to be removed from the country?
Sounds like, I don't know, China.
Sounds like Soviet Russia.
Sounds like you're targeting somebody as a political target.
It's political speech that you don't like, so you'll remove them.
And, you know, to those who say, well, Mike...
Mike Johnson, if there was a law, like, they would cite the law.
It's U.S. code, whatever, whatever, whatever, that, you know, he violated, and here it is, and, you know, they'd lay all that out, and they haven't.
It's just this, all the vagaries of, like, I felt scared, and people yelled at me, and gnashing of teeth, some Bible language in there to get at it.
And then he was the mastermind of it, somehow.
But no, yeah, no evidence of that, but I think that's the real key, is like...
If you have hard evidence, you'd be like, here's what he's charged with.
Here's the code, the legal, the law that he's being charged with breaking.
And we haven't heard that from Mike Johnson.
And God, I just feel like today's one of those days we're going to run out of time.
But like, if you're one of those men at church who says things like they were gnashing their teeth, what the are you talking about, pal?
Normal people don't talk like that.
And then...
Then I know, you know why he's saying that, Dan?
Because biblically, gnashing of teeth, ripping of clothes, this means, like, you know, they're devilish.
They're demonic.
It's an image of hell, right?
An image of torment.
The evildoers will be thrown into the pit where there's the weeping and gnashing of teeth, and it's this apocalyptic vision of, you know, torment and punishment.
That's what Mike Johnson thinks it's like when you walk down a sidewalk and have angry people yelling protests at you.
Exactly.
You all ever been at church and some creepy middle-aged dude's like, oh yeah, the kids were out of control the other day, gnashing their teeth, and you're like, you know what, Jared?
We don't need to talk like that because you're kind of freaking me out.
Well, that's Mike Johnson.
Mike Johnson literally thinks he went through hell, like walking around the Columbia campus.
Now, here's the thing.
The word he used there was mastermind, and Dan, he gave away the game.
He gave away the game because that is a word that...
Very particularly comes from the Heritage Foundation, a.k.a.
publisher of Project 2025, and their plan to target pro-Palestinian activists, organizations and others who are not willing to get on board of the unilateral condemnation of all Palestinian people as part of Hamas and Trump's plan to destroy.
Ethnically cleanse Palestine in order to build beach condos.
Let me read from Arno Rosenfeld at The Forward last October.
The organization behind Project 2025 just released a plan to counter anti-Semitism.
This plan can be seen, Dan, this is me now, as a kind of addendum to Project 2025. It's called Project Esther.
And it suggests that the federal government train its sights on, quote, virulently anti-Israel, anti-Zionist, and anti-American groups that it calls what?
The Hamas Support Network.
So they're doing the thing we talked about at the start.
If you support Palestinian rights in any way, you're part of the Hamas Support Network.
Or just even listen to that.
If you oppose Israeli policy full stop, you're part of the Hamas.
Like, there's not even a direct connection to...
The Palestinians and Hamas, you will be labeled as a supporter of Hamas if you don't support the state of Israel and its policies and goals.
Oh, you don't support Trump condos, Gaza?
You're part of the Hamas support network.
The plans call for using counterterrorism and immigration laws against leaders of this alleged network.
For that same reason, it's worth noting...
Okay, so let me stop here.
They want to target folks who are standing up for Palestinian rights, a lot of student groups, a lot of others.
That includes Jewish Voice for Peace and Students for Justice in Palestine.
That includes Jewish groups supporting Palestinian rights.
So just get it right.
The Christian nationalist organization, the Heritage Foundation, is saying that the Jewish Voice for Peace and Students for Justice in Palestine are anti-Semitic.
Okay?
So we have Christians telling Jews what is and what is not anti-Semitic.
Okay?
For that same reason, it's worth noting who's not part of the plan.
Jewish organizations.
They are not part of this plan, Dan, to root out anti-Semitism by getting rid of the Hamas support network.
Project Esther accuses, in fact, America's, quote, Jewish community of, quote, complacency and says some elements are blind and deaf to the menace.
So they're like, Hey, Jews, you don't know what's going on.
Some of you are actually anti-Jew, and we need to help you, and we will get it done.
So we're not inviting any of you to help us, but don't worry, we've got this, okay?
All right.
Rosenfeld followed us up with another article in December of last year, a couple months ago, and he talks about a pitch deck that the Heritage Foundation uses trying to build support for this whole Project Esther plan.
And it includes identifying...
Everybody listen up.
Perk up here.
Okay?
We're in class.
I'm like, hey, stop for a minute.
Look up for a minute.
Get off of TikTok.
Just look up here.
Okay, you ready?
Identifying, quote, foreign members vulnerable to deportation and enlisting law enforcement to generate uncomfortable conditions for progressive activists.
And what they have in this slide...
Dan, is if you picture some columns from left to right, there are columns that list people and organizations in different categories.
So you have like followers, all the students.
They're the followers.
You have organizers.
These are some of the student groups and committees.
These are activist organizations.
You have backers.
Of course, they think George Soros has done all of this, but others out there who are supporting these things.
And then they have, ah, let me read this here.
The print is small.
What is it?
Masterminds.
Yep, masterminds.
Angela Davis, George Soros, J.D. Pritzker.
Okay.
The masterminds of this whole thing.
Dan, those people who published Project 2025 published Project Esther.
Project Esther uses the pretext of antisemitism to...
Try to squash any support for Palestine by labeling it as support for the Hamas support network.
This is something that was influenced by, it was cultivated and had input from America First Policy Institute.
That means Larry Kudlow.
That means people who have direct and unfettered access to Donald Trump.
The Heritage Foundation, as I've said many times on this show, is led by whom?
Kevin Roberts.
Who wrote the foreword to Kevin Roberts' book, Dan?
Who wrote it?
J.D. Vance.
Okay?
In my mind this week, I've been thinking that when J.D. Vance gets together with his homeboys and, like, they drink whiskey and think they're cool, he likes to be known as the Diz, like J-Diz, you know, J-Diz Vance.
So who wrote the foreword to Kevin Roberts' book?
None other than the Diz himself.
Dizzity J.D. Dizzity Vance.
That's who wrote the foreword, okay?
So let me read one more thing, and I'll be quiet because it's getting weird.
I know I'm getting fired up.
This is Zev Michel writing at the Religion News Service.
By making it appear like they're addressing anti-Semitism, they can create a smokescreen to attack the funding infrastructure for a variety of progressive causes.
Project Esther isn't really for Jews.
In other words, it's an attempt to cite anti-Semitism as an excuse to advance Heritage's broader Christian nationalist agenda.
It's a McCarthyist blueprint that completely ignores the most violent manifestations of anti-Semitism, including white nationalism and great replacement theory.
They have no interest in neo-Nazis, white nationalists, people flying swastikas.
The guy who was born in South Africa, who owns a car dealership that apparently is located at the White House now, who did a Nazi salute at the inauguration.
They don't have any interest in that.
But what they have is a McCarthyist focus on those people who they think are not real Americans.
And that includes Mahmoud Khalil.
So, Dan, here's the conclusion.
When Mike Johnson says this guy was a mastermind.
Mike Johnson, the Christian nationalist.
Mike Johnson, the tried-and-true religious rights speaker of the House.
Mike Johnson, who is close to every, every evangelical and Christian nationalist organization, including the Heritage Foundation.
You can't tell me that him using the word mastermind was an accident.
Off to you.
He's just doing like, it's just Heritage Foundation talking points, basically.
If somebody listens to that, like all the moves to try to make it about anti-Semitism, to try to sidestep issues of free speech, as we were saying earlier.
I think the other piece of this is this is also typical, not even white nationalist, but just white racist rhetoric.
White people, even a lot of well-intentioned white people, often like to tell minorities how they should be minorities.
We've talked about that with notions of the model minority.
We've talked about it with different things.
You can think back to the white anxiety or the anxiety that so many white people had about Black Lives Matter.
And they would do that thing where they'd be like, well, you're not enough like MLK. And, you know, it's a whitewashing of MLK and MLK's legacy and whatever.
But you would get this notion of white people telling black people how black people should be opposing racism.
And it's like, it's all fine to be anti-racist as long as you let the white people tell you how to do it, African-American community, so that you get it right.
We've got the same thing now with the Jewish community.
So we're really, I promise, we Christian nationalists, we're really concerned about anti-Semitism.
As long as the Jewish people in our country don't actually tell us what anti-Semitism is or what the experience of that is or how that might relate to issues like support for Israel or opposition to Israeli policies or anything else, as long as we, the white Christians, get to be the ones to define the terms of what anti-Semitism is, Sideline and marginalize the Jewish community, all in the name supposedly of being the voice for whom?
For the Jewish community.
And I'll just point out, you know, if people are interested in this, you go back to like one of the first episodes we ever did in our first run of episodes was about what?
Evangelical support for Israel and how it feeds into narratives of anti-Semitism and sidelines the Jewish community and so forth.
And here it is, is a very explicit part of the Heritage Foundation.
I agree.
I want to dig more into this with some video from the Dizzler himself, J.D. Vance.
So we'll be right back.
I'm Ruth Bronstein, a sociologist who studies religion and politics.
When Donald Trump emerged on the political scene in 2016, he supercharged a movement I'd been tracking for years.
A movement of religious extremists who believe that Christians, and only Christians, should run the country.
I recently met an evangelical pastor from Phoenix, a guy named Caleb Campbell, who told me how people in his congregation started to change around that time.
People were meeting me in the lobby, putting their finger on my sternum, saying, don't bring that liberal agenda into the house of God.
And I'm like, what are you talking about?
Within a decade, this extreme Christian nationalist ideology had taken root in evangelical churches across the country.
Now, a man they believe was anointed by God is president of the United States for the second time.
And if pastors refuse to tow the MAGA line, there are consequences.
I know so many of the stories where they end up losing their job, losing their churches.
But here's the part of the story you haven't heard.
Some evangelical leaders are resisting.
I committed myself to taking a stand against American Christian nationalism in my community.
I said, if we're joining Team Trump, I can't be part of this anymore.
They were going to try to paint my theology as not biblical enough, specifically because of my stances around race and racial justice.
And I'm like, you know what, we need to leave loud.
And they're building a movement to fight back.
We needed some sort of organization that could speak to people as fellow conservatives, as fellow evangelicals who could go into these spaces that are becoming radicalized.
This is the story of the evangelicals resisting extremism.
Listen to When the Wolves Came, wherever you get your podcasts, coming March 4th.
I'm Leah Payne.
I'm a historian who studies Pentecostal and charismatic movements in the United States and beyond.
What I've learned is that what happens in churches shapes the American political and social landscape.
Some trends have been developing over decades, and others are brand new.
Spirit and Power is a limited series podcast from the Institute for Religion, Media, and Civic Engagement, made possible by generous funding from the Henry Luce Foundation.
Beginning on Thursday, March 6th, we'll explore the technicolor world of the prosperity gospel, the surprising faith of mama bear activists, apocalyptic responses to the Trump administration's deportation policy, and much, much more.
Join me for in-depth conversations with journalists and scholars exploring the intersection of charismatic religion and politics in America.
All right, let's listen to J.D. justify why Mahmoud Khalil should be perhaps deported from the country.
Here is a clip from...
The vice president.
A green card holder, even if I might like that green card holder, doesn't have an indefinite right to be in the United States of America, right?
American citizens have different rights from people who have green cards, from people who have student visas.
And so my attitude on this is this is not fundamentally about free speech.
And to me, yes, it's about national security, but it's also more importantly about who do we as an American public decide gets to join our national community.
And if the secretary of state and the president decide.
This person shouldn't be in America and they have no legal right to stay here.
It's as simple as that.
Do you see more such deportations happening?
I think we'll certainly see some people who get deported on student visas if we determine that it's not in the best interest of the United States to have them in our country.
So, yeah, I don't know how high that number is going to be, but you're going to see more people.
All right, Dan.
So I want to break this down like the...
With the good training that we have as scholars of techs, this is how you and I were trained, and it's fun to actually put that into practice here sometimes.
So J.D. Vance starts by saying this, green card holders don't hold an indefinite right to be here.
Okay.
He is starting, in my opinion, with an either or, with the false choice fallacy.
He's basically saying, as a green card holder, you don't have indefinite rights.
And what that means is, and he's going to say it 10 seconds later, is, so you can be removed for this reason or that.
Okay.
When he says that, he's ignoring the, they do not have indefinite rights.
You are correct.
But if you're a green card holder like Mahmoud Khalil, okay, you have a lot of rights.
You have been granted permanent residency in the United States.
The United States government has said, You can stay here permanently.
And as I read from Steve Ladek earlier, there is supposed to be a reason that the government has for arresting you and perhaps deporting you.
I'm going to read from a piece at WAPO. Here's Annie Lai, who is a law professor at the University of California at Irvine.
What can happen is a person can be charged as deportable, and then they would be able to have their case heard by an immigration judge.
If the person fell in within a certain category of people who are considered deportable, that's the most common way that you see these things happen.
A decision to revoke somebody's visa or to charge somebody as deportable is supposed to have a legal basis.
It is not supposed to be based upon their political views.
That's the issue at hand here.
Is there a legal basis?
Did he commit a crime?
Did he murder someone?
Did he attack someone violently?
Is he committing espionage for another government?
I mean, we can talk about the reasons you might be deported, okay?
Is there a felony charge here?
Or is it just he spoke out for Palestinian rights and he participated in protests?
So J.D. Vance then goes on to say, sure, and he does exactly what you said he would do.
Dan, he's like, oh, free speech?
Of course, yeah, free speech.
Of course, yeah.
I mean, a year and a half ago, it was like, oh, liberals hate free speech.
They won't let this, like Nazis, speak at a campus.
What's wrong with you guys?
Now it's like, sure, it's free speech, but I'm just saying, like...
And he then says something, Dan, that I think is so telling, and I'll be short on this and let you take it away.
He says, I think there's something more important here.
We as Americans deciding who should be part of our political community.
And there it is.
Should you be part of our political community, Dan, based on a legal foundation of immigration that includes green card holders, a diverse, pluralist republic filled with how many different ethnicities, different races, different religious views, and, dare I say, different political views?
Or are we going to admit immigrants into the country based on the idea that they promised to never support Palestinian rights in any way?
Once again, not sure that's free speech in any form at all.
It also seems to sound a lot more like the crackdown on dissidents in China or in other places rather than the United States of America.
And he's basically saying the United States is not a place based on the ideal of free speech, based on inalienable rights.
It's based on we're deciding you can come in as long as your politics align with those in charge.
Because what did he say?
It's about us, the American people, deciding who comes into the community.
And therefore, if the president or secretary of state decides.
So it's not like, oh, we voted.
It's not like a judge heard this.
It's not like a jury of the people.
It's like, oh, yeah, the people are clearly collapsed into the will of the leader.
Damn, dude.
This does not sound like democracy to me.
Seems like I say that every week, but off to you.
Yeah, so one of the things we've talked about for a really long time, if we talk about populism and nationalism and Christian nationalism, is that part of that is about defining who the real Americans are.
And it's not everybody who is here.
And you get in that construction of the we, we as Americans, and as you say, collapsing that into, oh, what we really mean is MAGA Nation.
That's what's distilled in Trump and the Trump administration.
So those are the real Americans.
Everybody else who's here, all the Americans, American citizens.
U.S. citizens, as well as legal residents and others, none of them count.
They are not the real Americans.
And when I try to explain this to people, and they're like, well, that sounds pretty far-fetched.
I don't know if that's really what politicians are saying.
But, you know, saying, here's J.D. Vance saying it.
As you say, you just sort of connect the dots with the things that he says, and there it is.
I think the other thing to think about this, you know, again, neither one of us are like immigration law experts or something like that.
But as you say, there are differences between Having a right to permanent residency and like a student visa.
I studied in the UK on a student visa.
There were things I couldn't do, and obviously my status there was much more tenuous than it would be if I had like a permanent right to stay there.
I couldn't be employed there, like different kinds of things like that.
We recognize this.
But part of what having a green card, the so-called green card, the right to residence, and I'm just going to also throw this out, the word permanent.
Seems like indefinite could maybe be a definition of permanent.
If somebody was like, you know, what does permanent mean?
He said they don't hold an indefinite right to be here.
It's like, kind of, that's actually what the green card says that they have, is that unlike a visa that's for a fixed amount of time, they can stay here indefinitely, J.D. Vance.
But anyway.
But also...
The green card, among other things, gives permanent residence rights.
And what are rights?
We think of these all the time.
Americans love rights, and they are protections and entitlements that we have from other people, but also from the government.
Rights protect us from overreach of other citizens, other people who would infringe on those rights.
But they also protect us from the government doing exactly the kind of thing it's doing, of saying, we are going to target you because you say things we don't like.
We are going to target you Because you are in favor of a people group we don't like or we don't recognize.
We are going to target you because you hold an ethnicity or a cultural background that we don't like.
That's exactly what the rights that are granted by permanent residency or citizenship are supposed to give us, and that's why...
J.D. Vance and others are working so hard to say that this isn't about rights.
This is about, you know, him being a mastermind or a criminal or a terrorist organizer or whatever, because they recognize, you know, what that is.
So I have a bunch of...
Media Matters has a great piece, and I have a bunch of things that just back up everything what you just said about who has rights and who's a real American, who gets to be here and who doesn't.
This is by Gideon Taffey and Jack Winstanley.
So they collated a whole bunch of quotes from right-wing news types.
Laura Ingram, they're living here.
They're working here.
They're studying here on student visas, work visas.
It's their goal to normalize this notion of foreigners coming here and then advocating for the overthrow of our government.
That sounds like McCarthy.
That sounds like they're rooting out communists with or without evidence, with or without charges, with or without anything.
They're living here.
They're working here.
Like, Dan, that could be a line from any movie you've ever seen about fascist regimes, totalitarian regimes, etc.
Greg Gutfield, who just one of the least funny and or smart people on television.
Sorry, Greg.
You can deport him.
He doesn't have to be a criminal.
No, you can't.
I don't know why.
Why?
Why can you do that?
Why do you say that when that's not true, simply?
The Daily Wire, Andrew Clavin, said that Khalil is better off getting out of here.
And he hopes all the people who were with him, who are not American nationals, are sent home in a big, big hurry.
Brian Kilmeade, Fox and Friends, Fox host.
I mean, according to the trajectory of Pete Hegseth, one seat away from being Department of Defense, who knows?
Students you are going to lose due to the Trump administration's, quote, relentless actions.
And the Democrats are...
No Democrat is going to stand up for you.
There's a bunch more.
I will say that one of the things that this arrest fits into is Project Esther's targeting of those who are seen as politically marginalized, because there have been Democrats this week who, instead of saying this is unilaterally wrong, have said, well, what does he support?
OK, I have to wait until I can come out with a statement before I say whether or not I think this is a travesty or bad.
That was strategic.
That is why think tanks like Heritage Foundation have the ear of the Trump administration, because if you target Mahmoud Khalil, you are doing so in a way that you know the political support from centrist Dems may not be swift or come at all, and that is on purpose.
So I think that's there as well.
Any final thoughts on this, Dan, before we...
It's not an isolated case.
We could have talked about others.
Right now, there is someone from Great Britain who is a backpacker, who is backpacking up through California to Oregon, Washington, to Canada, got to Canada, had the wrong visa, got turned back.
And when they got turned back, instead of getting it cleared up, the United States ICE arrested her, and she has been in an ICE detention facility for 10 days.
This is a white woman from Great Britain.
That's a big story in Great Britain right now.
I know a lot of us probably aren't paying attention to that.
The reason I bring that up is this is not the only case.
It's also part of a wider context in which the United States is becoming more and more and more seen as an unsafe place for anyone, including tourists, including visitors, and including students who want to study.
At some of the greatest universities in the world.
I guess just real quick though, the last thought I would add is that it never stops with the most marginal.
Because once you go after the most marginal groups, what happens is everybody becomes more marginalized.
Everybody becomes a greater threat.
So those whose political speech is not approved by MAGA Nation who are citizens, or who are citizens but people of color, or citizens but queer folk, or whatever.
You will get the spread of that marginalization.
Like, communities that maybe don't feel, or individuals who don't feel like they're at the margins now, once they kind of burn through the marginalized groups, guess what?
There's a new margin.
There are new groups at the margin, and that will continually be the goal of this kind of movement, as it is of all authoritarian and fascist movements, working toward a kind of cultural or political purity.
It's only a matter of time until they come for everybody who disagrees with them.
Fascists come for the marginalized and they ask everyone else to go with them after the marginalized.
And then guess what?
Most people become the marginalized.
So, like, fascism has two modes.
Either you're attacking the vulnerable or you are the vulnerable.
And those are porous boundaries because at some point, fascism is not only going to ask you to go for others, it's going to come for you.
Let's take a break.
Be right back.
All right, Dan, take us through some stuff at the Department of Ed that is going a little bit under the radar, but does have incredible importance for education and rights in this country.
Yeah, and also connections to Christian nationalism.
I think that that's a piece that, you know, the connecting line that I think we want to draw that I think probably some others may not see.
So Doge and the Trump administration fired, people probably follow this, numerous Department of Education personnel.
Recently, we know, we've talked about that the Trump administration can't just literally close the Department of Education because it was created by an act of Congress, but they can fire employees and strip it of funding and different kinds of things like this.
Well, this also included, and there's an article about this, a very, very small part of the Department of Education is the National Center for Education Statistics.
I think I read it had something like 130 employees who worked for this small organization within the Department of Ed.
And what the National Center for Educational Statistics does is collect and analyze education data across the country and apparently has done so in some form since like the 1860s.
People have been sort of collecting data about education in the U.S. And it issues, the organization does, a congressionally mandated test.
So this is required by Congress, a test that tests reading and math in different grades.
And it's the National Assessment of Education Progress.
Colloquially known as the nation's report card, okay?
So if you see articles, there were some recently because it just came out for, I think, was a fourth and eighth grade, you know, nation's report card, and you can look up your state and you can see how it's stacked up to other states and, like, what percentage of students in those grades were proficient or, you know, not meeting standards and so on and so forth, okay?
So what's going on with this connects directly with MAGA. They just eliminated effectively, again, not by law, but effectively by firing everybody who works for it, this organization.
And that sounds really wonky and boring.
They collect and analyze educational data.
Ooh, ah, it's hot stuff, right, Brad?
It's the kind of stuff most of us spend all of our time just waiting for.
But here's why it matters, and I think there are two main themes here.
The first thing is that if you look at this, and people probably know this if you follow education in the U.S., in general terms, and there will be some exceptions, and certainly there are exceptions when you look at individual districts and so forth, but in general terms, Republican-controlled states score much more poorly in education measures than Democratic-controlled states.
Red states do not perform as well.
By and large, as blue states in terms of education.
One of the reasons we know this is because the nation's report card tells us that, and we see that kind of thing.
One of the things that you also see is if you were to map a lot of the kinds of culture war issues in education across the U.S., where do they really take root?
They take root in red states, places where we can't talk about LGBTQ plus identity.
We can't.
We're going to have book bans.
We can no longer teach about slavery or racism in public school classrooms.
Or Oklahoma.
We're going to talk more about Oklahoma because that's just a good example of this.
We're going to require that you teach the Bible.
We're going to require that there's a Bible in every classroom.
My thesis, Brad, and what you might think about this, is that if you put those two pieces together, that the kind of education culture war stuff is more prominent in red states, and the red states perform less well on educational assessments is...
That the culture war stuff is intended in part to distract from that.
It is intended to trivialize education.
It is intended to make it so that parents aren't worried about the fact that their kids are not performing well, that they're not learning what they need to learn, that they're not getting the kind of educational attainment they need.
But by God, they don't have to hear about two men dating.
Or they don't have to face uncomfortable questions about, I don't know.
How would we think about Rosa Parks if it happened today?
Or whatever other kinds of exercises you might do.
So I think that one of the purposes of the culture war stuff on the right is to detract from and trivialize actual education.
So that's sort of one thesis that I have.
And I think that this is a part of what happens here.
And so let's talk about Oklahoma with Ryan Walters, state superintendent, the guy that wants to push the Bibles.
We've talked about Ryan Walters.
He's a full MAGA supporter.
It was clear, I think both of us said at other times, we thought he was really trying to hope that he'd get a role in the Trump administration, and he didn't.
But Oklahoma performed very poorly on the most recent report card.
Only 23% of 4th graders and 20% of 8th graders were proficient at reading.
Oklahoma, the scores in Oklahoma were lower than 37 other states, and they were well below the average.
So that's Ryan Walters.
And I came across an article from, I think it was a local Oklahoma NPR affiliate a few weeks ago.
With Democrats in Oklahoma, and there are Democrats in Oklahoma, who were going after Walters and they were saying, you haven't fixed the education system.
It hasn't improved since 2020. You're putting all this energy into Bibles, you're sucking all the oxygen in the room into Bibles, and that's all a distraction from actual education in Oklahoma.
And I think it illustrates that point.
And I think that this is a strategy of Christian nationalism.
If you map all of these things onto the contours of the U.S. Where does Christian nationalism have the deepest roots, the most widespread support?
Where is education devalued the most, and do students perform the most poorly?
And where do you get the greatest emphasis on these kind of culture war issues?
It's all the same places.
And so I view this move with the Department of Education very much fitting into an agenda of Christian nationalism.
And a piece of that, I have more to say.
There's another connection to Christian nationalism.
I'm just wondering about your thoughts on...
Any of that?
Am I off base?
Am I crazy?
Am I connecting dots that aren't there to be connected?
No, and I think, you know, I was thinking about this this morning as we got ready for this, and I saw an old tweet by somebody that was saying, I have a feeling that giving kids free lunch and free breakfast, making sure you're not hungry when you go to school is going to have a lot more effect on their education than hanging the Ten Commandments. making sure you're not hungry when you go to school
Yep.
And what I mean by that is, the principal goal there, as a government, as a school district, as an arm of the state, is not in my mind to convert people.
I mean, if you think that hanging the Ten Commandments is going to convert someone, and they're going to say a personal prayer to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
I just think that's probably unlikely.
What you're trying to do is create social order and social hierarchy.
You're trying to say, as you just iterated, we prioritize your surrender is too strong a word, but your recognition of the political authority of Christianity and the Christian entanglement with the state and sponsoring by the state.
More than we do educating you.
Conformity.
Right?
Political and social conformity.
And that goes along with everything J.D. Vance says.
I mean, if you all think those two are separate, you're right.
Let's make the connection.
J.D. Vance says, we want to make sure that we include people in our political community that we decide are good to be here.
And if the president wants to get rid of them, so be it.
Ryan Walters is like, we want to raise six-year-olds and eight-year-olds and ten-year-olds.
Who think that being part of the political community is that you have to recognize the state sponsored religion or you may not be a real American.
And so all of the efforts you're talking about and the Christian nationalism is there.
I'll just say quickly, Dan, when you and I were evangelicals.
The ideas that we heard were like.
Converting people is a matter of persuading them and hear me out real quick.
And as a result.
When Constantine, and everyone's like, what, Brad?
Come on, Constantine.
We're talking about Oklahoma.
But just give me a minute, okay?
When Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire, I don't know about you, but I was taught it ruined everything.
It made being a Christian a cultural matter.
And Christian nationalism these days is like, no, Constantine's great.
Because everybody, whether their heart is in it or not, has to show that they recognize The social order, the social hierarchy, and the state-sponsored way of doing things.
And if they don't, we know who the rebels are and we know who to get rid of.
Christian nationalism is Constantinian through and through, and I think Walters is part of that.
Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely correct.
Coming back to this, so another piece of this or the connection with the Christian nationalism, these things dovetail, is we've seen a move for several years now where Christian nationalists have given up trying to engage on issues.
When I was a kid, growing up in evangelicalism, a book like, say, Stephen Jones, White Too Long, White Supremacy and American Christianity, the book did not exist then.
But the arguments did, that people that were like, no, actually, white supremacy has been a key component of white cultural Christianity from the first founding, from before there was a U.S. in the colonial period.
And you would get evangelicals who would try to argue with that, try to argue that it really wasn't, or they do that thing that I was sort of making fun of, and it's in the code, where they're like, well, that wasn't Christianity.
That was just a poor embodiment of it.
And you're like, well, show me the embodiment that didn't do that.
And, you know, whatever.
But they would try to engage.
Or if you had people and they were like, you know, I think mainstream evangelicalism is really homophobic.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It's not about homophobia.
It's not about hating anybody.
It's about love.
And they would try to engage on those issues.
I think that that's something we have seen the Christian nationalists just simply abandon.
And the strategy they have followed instead for years is to say, we're just not going to talk about it anymore.
We're just going to pretend it doesn't exist.
So critical race theory, and it feels like a long time ago now that that was the big hot-button issue.
We're not going to debate about whether or not there can be such a thing as institutional racism or whether racism is just individual attitudes and so forth.
We're just going to say we can't talk about it anymore.
We're not going to debate about how central slavery was to the founding of the United States, to the development of the nation, to things like industrialization and so forth.
We're not going to talk about it anymore.
And you had those laws that were passed that talked about not teaching things that could make people uncomfortable in the classroom or whatever.
To, I mentioned earlier, the book bans.
We're not going to debate queer issues anymore.
We're just literally going to pretend they don't exist by prohibiting any discussion of them.
We are going to pretend that there's no such thing as discrimination in the workplace and so forth, in part by doing away with all DEI initiatives.
Any effort to try to make a workplace that looks more like broader society, that is now suspect.
We're just not going to do it anymore.
So this is a move.
I see the same thing with education here.
Because somebody confronts the uncomfortable fact and says, hey, right-wingers who say all these things, doing things like defunding school food programs and so forth, your schools underperform.
Your kids don't do as well.
They're not learning as much.
All this stuff that you say is really important, like, say, homeschooling or vouchers or all the kind of things you promote, your students don't know what they need to know.
And all those liberal states you don't like, they do better.
So let's talk about that.
Instead, it's like, no, you know what?
We're just going to fire everybody who collects that data.
We will no longer have that data.
And so now, just as an article of faith, we can insist that we're doing just as well as everybody else does.
So just to go back to our friends in Oklahoma, Oklahoma scored very poorly.
In 2024, they also developed their own in-state assessment, and they lowered all the standards of proficiency.
So that their students scored much higher on their, like, Oklahoma standards than on the federal standards.
And they now point to that and say, see, the federal standards are wrong because we did this.
That was in 2024. That's Ryan Walters.
That's his watch.
That's his move.
That's his kind of thing.
So again, when people hear, like, really wonky stuff about firing a bunch of people at the Department of Education and this little-known statistical agency that employed 130 people out of all the thousands of federal employees who've been fired.
130 people.
And why does it matter?
It fits this pattern.
Going to really fundamental issues in the country and saying, we, to your point about conformity, we are no longer concerned about any discussion.
We're no longer concerned about, quote-unquote, converting people to our ideas or our faith or our views on slavery or racism or anything else.
We're just not even going to talk about them.
We are going to prohibit any discussion of these things.
And we're no longer, when it comes to education, even going to track What students are learning, how effectively they are learning them, so we can bring that into the same kind of camp of MAGA dogma and insist that everything on the right is better, is the best that it can be, all the superlatives that Trump would have.
So I see in both of these dimensions, I see what's going on at the Department of Education and this, again, really wonky thing about the nation's report card fitting into a pattern that we have seen for a long time coming out of not just the Christian right.
But white American Christian nationalism.
And I think it fits into the larger project.
Some of you listening are very aware of the origins of homeschooling, the Reconstructionist cultivation of this.
You know, Rush Dooney, Gary North, all the way to Doug Wilson, Pete Hegseth, all of that stuff.
And the basic line of thought there goes, well, true education happens under the authority of God.
Public schools are not under the authority of God, so one cannot be truly educated in that setting.
And thus, the ultimate goal is to shutter public schools and to take as much money as you can away from them, therefore vouchers, therefore homeschooling credit, whatever.
This is all part of that larger plan here.
And Donald Trump has, of course, both times he's had a chance, you know, put people in place at the Department of Education to either actively pursue that plan in Betsy DeVos or to kind of just be a functionary who makes it happen in Lyndon McMahon.
I think that's part of this.
My reason for hope, this is a nice segue.
I feel very professional today, Dan.
I feel like we've planned this.
Our outfit matches.
Our socks and our shoes match our shirt and our scarf.
This is great.
My reason for hope comes from Oklahoma.
And our good friends, Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
Mitch Randall of Good Faith Media and others.
This is from the ACLU. In a victory for religious freedom, public education, and church-state separation.
The Oklahoma Supreme Court temporarily blocked Oklahoma Superintendent Ryan Walters and the Oklahoma State Department of Education from spending taxpayer dollars on Bibles and Bible-infused instruction materials.
The plaintiffs are AU for Separatist Church and State, the ACLU, the ACLU Foundation, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, and the Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice.
This is temporary, but it is good news, and we will see what happens with the rest of the story.
What's your reason for hope?
My reason for hope is that a federal judge ordered thousands of federal employees, those statutory, excuse me, probationary employees who were fired to be reinstated.
The technicalities are all there, but the point is that the judge basically said there are protocols that have to be followed and procedures, and you can't just blanketly fire these people and so forth.
So a lot, we talk about the executive actions, we talk about, you know, the courts fighting them and the lag in those.
It's going to be, I think, a years-long process untangling some of these things, but I continue to take hope as the courts sort of catch up to many of these executive actions.
I know it's not the end of it.
I know it doesn't fix everything, but I took hope in that.
We'll just say as a postlude today, I am like watching...
To see if there's news on the Senate and whether or not the Senate Dems have...
Like literally watching.
Brad is like literally checking his screen now to see if there are updates.
Yeah.
I am.
And I'm trying to figure out if there are because there's been a full-scale revolt against Chuck Schumer.
Hakeem Jeffries came out and said that he thinks the Senate should vote against the continuing resolution and basically for a government shutdown.
AOC did this last night on TV. And even Nancy Pelosi made a statement this morning.
So this is...
A story that unfortunately we can't cover this week because it's just happening right as we're recording, but we will take a look at it.
I'll just say real quick, Dan, as a postlude, I think Chuck Schumer's going to be out of a job here quick as Senate Majority Leader.
I think he's going to get primaried.
I think there's a lot of anger.
I think Josh Marshall's been saying this.
I think AOC's been saying this.
this, a lot of others have been saying this, that I think some of the centrist Dems, senators, the Gillibrands, the Schumers and others are not tuned in to how angry and concerned people are.
And they're failing the people in terms of where people are at politically.
They're not representing them.
I'll also say, and this is going to sound ridiculous, and I'm happy for you to talk me down and say, you've had too much Coke Zero already, but it feels like there is a beginning of a new political movement in but it feels like there is a beginning of a new political movement in Perhaps even a political party that may come from the ashes of this.
And I'm thinking big picture here of like Trump and Musk destroying the United States as we know it and what comes after that.
And what comes after that may be the thing that, you know, Socialists, Democrats and and those on the left have wanted for a long time, which is a third party beyond the Democrats and the Republicans.
I just these little cracks to me.
You know, they pretend something.
Now, a lot of you are going to be like, no, this is just business as usual, and we'll go back to our two-party system no matter what.
But I don't know.
These kind of days like this, where Nancy Pelosi and Hakeem Jeffries and AOC are publicly telling the world that Schumer messed up here, that's not normal.
That's not an everyday thing you see.
And I'm just curious.
I don't know.
Any, like, 30-second thoughts on this before we just head out?
The 30-second thought is that I think, you know, you always get the thing that the party that causes the shutdown owns it.
Yep, they sure do.
But I'm looking at the Democrats.
I'm like, what's going to happen?
Are you going to maybe not win the White House in both houses of Congress?
Oh, wait, you already lost all of those.
Like, to me, this is such a chance to actually do something, to stand up for something, to try to...
To put a blanket onto some of the fires that the Trump administration is starting, with very little risk, because it's a long time until the midterms, and Americans have a short memory, and if people don't vote for Democrats in the midterms, it is not going to be because they caused a government shutdown two months after Trump was inaugurated, number one.
And number two, you are already at this low point.
The political risk for me, for Democrats, is what?
Like, you have such low approval ratings, you're not doing anything, and you just got trounced in an election.
Like, what...
I think that's just, like, another very pragmatic piece of this, of there simply is, for me, no strong rationale for Democrats not to do exactly what AOC and others are calling for.
Yeah.
Well, we'll stay on it.
There's going to be a lot of discourse about this and a lot to watch.
But for now, we'll just say...
Thanks for being here.
Thank you for all of your support.
Those who have signed up to be subscribers for Swatch Premium.
We are so grateful for you, for your ongoing comments in the Discord, your research that you often do on issues that are so important.
And all of you listening to One Nation Indivisible, keep tuning in.
And if you haven't yet, you're missing out.
Andrew Seidel is doing great stuff.
And guess what?
This week, a really special guest, Dan.
Me.
So, Andrew and I will be talking on Tuesday, and you'll hear all about the 10 ways we think you can fight back right now.
And in that episode, Dan, I tried to think of a good buddy cop movie, and the only one I could think of comparing myself to Andrew Seidel was Twins, where Arnold Schwarzenegger and Danny DeVito are twins, and I'm Danny DeVito.
So, you know, like...
Do you all remember that movie?
Do you remember that movie, Dan?
Do you remember twins?
I do remember that.
It's like genetic modification of the perfect human and Arnold Schwarzenegger is that person.
And then there was like some sort of weird side effect where they had twins and like all the bad genetic.
It was kind of a Hyde thing in a way, right?
But like in two bodies.
Yeah.
So Danny DeVito was the twin that got like all the bad traits.
Yeah.
That's how I feel when I'm with Andrew Seidel.
I'm like, well, he's tall, handsome, well-spoken lawyer.
And I'm Brad, making up nicknames for J. Disvance.
All right, y'all.
That's it.
We're done.
See you next time.
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