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Brad speaks with Dr. Kelsy Burke, a sociologist from the University of Nebraska, who discusses her new book The Pornography Wars: The Past, Present, and Future of America's Obscene Obsession.
https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/pornography-wars-9781635577365/
Burke spent the last five years researching and interviewing internet pornography's opponents and its sympathizers. She does a deep dive into the long history of pornography in America and then turns her gaze on our present society to examine the ways this industry touches on the most intimate parts of American lives. She offers a complete understanding of the major players in the debates around porn's place in society: everyone from sex workers, activists, therapists, religious leaders, and consumers. In doing so, she addresses and debunks the myths that surround porn and porn usage while showing how everything from the way we teach children about sex to the legal protections for what can be published is tied up in the deeply complicated battles over pornography.
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Axis Mundy Axis Mundy You're listening to an irreverent podcast.
visit irreverent.fm for more content from our amazing lineup of creators welcome to straight white American Jesus My name is Brad Onishi, faculty at the University of San Francisco.
Our show is hosted in partnership with the CAP Center at UCSB. And today I have an amazing guest to talk about a rich and provocative book, and that is Dr. Kelsey Burke.
So, Dr. Burke, Kelsey, thanks for joining me.
Thank you so much, Brad.
I'm a big fan of yours.
I will say I'm a huge fan of yours.
The book you've written here is just sort of marvelous.
It's called The Pornography Wars, The Past, Present, and Future of America's Obscene Obsession.
And before I jump into just asking you all about it, I'll just say that Dr. Burke is an award-winning sociologist who is an associate professor of sociology at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln.
Her work has been supported by all kinds of Grants and fellowships, the National Science Foundation and other places.
And her writing has appeared at the Washington Post and Newsweek, Salon and Slate and other outlets.
I'm not going to lie.
I do this for a living.
I get to do this every week.
And usually I feel pretty good about like, hey, here's the questions I want to ask.
And after like sort of approaching your book, I... I tried to send you five or six questions and I really had like 60 or 70 that I wanted to send and I knew I couldn't.
So we're talking about something that I think a lot of people...
Know about in terms of just a history of obscenity and obscenity laws in this country, debates about pornography, and those debates being somewhat complex.
And so I want to just start with the very first pages of the book.
In those pages, you share your kind of personal story a little bit, and you kind of set the stage for how you got into this research as a sociologist.
I will say your conversion, strikingly similar to mine.
I grew up in a non-religious household, as you did, nominally religious perhaps is a better word.
Converted, as you did, you had this amazing lakeside conversion at like 15. And all of a sudden, you know, you were a kind of youth group attending Jesus devoted person in a way that didn't quite fit into your family.
However, at the very end of the prologue, you have a sentence that is dazzling.
And friends, I will tell you that as somebody who's been in the Academy for 20 years, I have so many smart friends who I love and who I'll just say are not the most...
Dazzling of writers.
And Kelsey Burke is somebody who could have a career as a writer if she wanted to give up sociology.
Here is the sentence I'm talking about.
Looking back at my life as a teenager, I can say that both Jesus and Playboy saved me.
Would you just mind unpacking that just for a second so we kind of see the stage that set you up for this book?
Sure.
Well, thank you for the introduction and all the kind words.
You know, I was a bit on the fence about writing about myself at all in this book.
You know, as an academic, this is not what we are trained at all to do.
But I felt like it was important to tell a bit of my story because I think for anybody picking up a book about pornography, readers want to know, like, where is the author coming from?
Like, what's my angle?
So I thought I would just get that out of the way with a story that, yes, culminates in this line about being saved by both Jesus and Playboy.
So as you mentioned, I was a very devoted, born-again teenager.
And in a lot of ways, the Baptist church that I ended up attending and joining Did so many good things for me.
I was, you know, a really socially awkward adolescent.
I struggled to make friends and sort of feel like I found my place.
And so that was a space where I was able to do that.
And I was able to ask big questions about life and death and questions that I had, but I didn't really know, you know, where to put them or where to place them.
But at the same time that all of this was happening, I was really aware of Christian messages about sexuality.
And how deep down I knew that who I was didn't really match up with this image of the Christian woman that I was supposed to live up to or grow up and become.
And so it was the same time that I was really active in my church that I found a box in my family's storage room that was filled with old issues of Playboy magazine.
So it turns out my dad was a subscriber for well over a decade.
And I became kind of obsessed with these magazines.
I read every single one cover to cover.
I sort of felt like I was Playboy's biggest fan, that I just was so into these magazines.
And I knew cognitively that, like, these two things Jesus, Playboy, church, my sexuality, that they didn't quite match up.
But in my lived experience, they did go together.
Like I was experiencing both things simultaneously and it didn't feel really like a conflict.
Both of those elements really felt I guess, right, for lack of a better word.
So that's why I write that, you know, it was both Jesus and Playboy who saved me.
Eventually I ended up leaving the church.
I transferred out of a Baptist college that I started attending.
I came out as gay and my life now makes it seem like I'm definitely an outsider to that Baptist church, you know, and this like I'm a queer feminist.
I'm now a member of a Unitarian Church.
But I tell the story just to say that I'm not completely an outsider, you know, to situate myself and my background within the broader context of what I write about in the book.
Well, and you write so beautifully about how, you know, if your life had gone differently, maybe you would be part of the morning Bible studies that many of the women that you spoke to attend, or that you would have been part of some of the churches that you went to to interview folks.
And ironically, you were.
You were just there as a sociologist interviewing folks rather than participating as a I don't think there's any way to reduce or condense that to a couple of minutes.
And I want to encourage people, just go buy the book.
I mean, I'm not kidding.
Just go buy it so you can just kind of see where we've been.
But if we bring ourselves into the contemporary moment, I think pornography remains a kind of prism for There are debates surrounding bodily autonomy, sex work, feminism, Christian supremacy and Christian morality and so on.
And so I'm wondering if you might just outline for us, you know, there are various actors in this debate and it's not easy to kind of reduce it to one side, two sides, us against them, you know, religious versus non-religious, conservative versus liberal.
So as you think about the history of this debate and the contemporary moment, What are some of the feminist arguments that would say porn is harmful, pornography is something that is a negative force?
Or I guess maybe the better question for a sociologist is, what would some of the people you interviewed say along those lines?
Yeah, okay, so let's start with feminist arguments against porn.
Anti-porn feminists would say that pornography harms women, period.
So there's not a lot of room for caveats or nuance.
And today, anti-porn feminists don't make up the same kind of an organized movement like they did in the 1970s and 1980s.
But their arguments are more or less the same, so that pornography harms women by coercing them Or forcing them into scenes that are violent or degrading, not for their own pleasure, but for the pleasure of male actors or a male audience.
And that pornography also harms women by glorifying rape and rape culture by reducing women to sex objects.
So porn is kind of like patriarchy on steroids, basically encompassing all of the worst things about misogyny.
So that's a feminist argument in a nutshell.
And then there's other feminists and sex workers who would say that it's not so much pro-porn, like, hey, my life is devoted to A crusade to show everybody how great porn is, but it's more pro-sex worker and it's more sort of saying that this is not an inherently harmful phenomenon as the anti-porn feminists might argue.
So if you are in that camp, what does your perspective look like in a nutshell?
Yeah, well I actually used the phrase porn positive rather than pro porn because I think as you make this point like a lot of the folks that I spoke to who were performers and sex workers and their allies were not uniformly like pro commercial porn and were actually quite critical of the mind geek empire that controls so much of internet porn.
So I think the first thing that they say is that there is more than one kind of pornography.
So anti-porn activists really see the industry as monolithic and that they're sort of lumping together a mainstream commercial industry that is dominated by men who tend to be the producers, the directors, and now leaders of this mind geek empire that I mentioned, the kind of tech geeks who determine The algorithms for free streaming sites.
And, you know, I think that folks would acknowledge that sometimes, absolutely, pornography and the industry itself can be harmful to the people within it, but that that's not what all porn is.
And especially with the decline in the commercial industry, people are independently creating their own content on their own terms that's incredibly diverse.
So I had the opportunity to observe A porn shoot that was led by a feminist director.
She has an all-woman feminist porn company.
And the final product was this very sleek and sexy video.
But observing it, I think that if I had to come up with two adjectives to use to describe, I would say that it was very sweet and also boring.
We did a lot of snacking when we weren't shooting takes.
Everybody was just very nice and kind to one another.
And so I think that this really contradicts the image that we might have in our head of what mainstream commercial porn is.
And I think that people recognize that there are problems within the industry, but that the solution is really reform rather than admonishing it all together.
So a lot of the performers I interviewed saw themselves as artists, even activists who believe that Some pornographic films can do something really productive when it comes to sort of expanding our sense of sexual freedom, sexual pleasure.
And the second thing I'll say, just this sort of second argument in this camp, is to contextualize porn and sex work within broader capitalism, within broader society.
I interviewed Tristan Taramino, who's a longtime feminist within the industry.
And she basically was like, well, would you rather get, can I say fucked on the podcast?
Would you rather get like fucked really hard for one hour Or work 12 hours in an Amazon warehouse, you know, where you're regulated in terms of the amount of bathroom breaks you take and you're having to, you know, basically making the point that many of us feel exploited in our jobs and that anti-porn activists have isolated sex work and pornography as being uniquely harmful.
And she just doesn't see it that way.
So that was true for the folks that I interviewed in the industry that, you know, they felt like actually they had more autonomy, more choice, And frankly, more time that they weren't working with their career in porn and sex work.
And it really does bring up debates about it's not just that we are exploited under capitalism in terms of our work, but so many people's bodies are exploited.
There's other ways that people do work that is bodily labor, physical labor that Is ignored, I guess, in the kind of anti-porn debate.
All right.
So we have anti-porn feminists.
We have, as you call them, porn positive feminists and performers and activists.
Let's bring in the conservative religious folks.
You know, what are they going to say?
And I think people listening may kind of have an instinct about what they'll say.
But, you know, in a nutshell, what does the conservative religious actor say when it comes to pornography?
Yeah, well, I think we hear these talking points all the time.
And I think there's sort of two issues that are involved in today's anti-porn movement.
So on the one hand, there's the production of porn.
And the modern day anti-porn movement has really morphed into what it calls itself an anti-sex trafficking movement.
But their focus is not just on people who would be considered traffic or who would be Forced into sex work or pornography without giving their consent, but really all people in porn because conservative Christians believe that fundamentally all sex work is exploitative.
So they see pornography and sex trafficking as really one in the same and that that's a problem with the production and with the industry itself.
And second, there's the side of consuming or watching porn.
And so here the concern is of many young people, many young men, and a position that watching porn is bad for you.
In 2016, for example, the GOP added to its platform for the first time that internet pornography is destroying the lives of millions.
There are states that have passed resolutions that declare pornography to be a public health crisis.
So here it appears that the language and focus is on health rather than religion or morality, but often we can trace these efforts back to conservative Christian politicians and leaders.
But they do use this language that pornography is physically harmful by watching it.
It does seem that the focus there is really on the effects of the viewer rather than the concern for the well-being of...
I mean, I know that you'll hear this from conservative Christians about the well-being of those who are in the porn industry or in sex work, but At least from my view, and I'm happy for you to correct me on this, a lot of the emphasis seems to be on what happens to the 19-year-old young man who's watching pornography rather than other concerns.
This kind of brings up something that I think is really worth highlighting, that these debates surrounding pornography create strange alliances.
And I'm wondering if you could help us understand that.
How does a pornography debate...
Lead to a kind of feminist being perhaps strangely in agreement with, you know, a conservative evangelical or somebody from the Latter-day Saints or, you know, someone else that we would usually never imagine them teaming up together.
Yeah, that's a great question.
Nancy Whittier is a sociologist who has written a book about, in part, the anti-porn movement in the 1980s, and she argues really convincingly, I think, that alliance or coalition is not quite the right word to describe feminists and conservatives when it came to anti-porn activists, that they rarely organized together, that sometimes there would be individual people, like individual feminists might be invited to speak, At a conservative event.
But for the most part, they weren't really true collaborators in the 1980s.
And I would say that that is more or less true today.
So alliance is a little bit of a tricky word.
I heard over and over again at anti-porn events that I attended that the movement was incredibly diverse.
So they loved this word to say that It's not just about religion.
It's not just conservatives.
And some of the biggest anti-porn conferences do have a relatively diverse platform of speakers.
So they might invite a lesbian feminist speaker who opposes pornography.
Or the founder of an online porn addiction recovery website who has said that he's an atheist.
So it's true that the anti-porn movement does have these different voices, but I think that they show up unevenly.
So the organizations that are the most well-funded, that are lobbying politicians, typically tend to be led by conservative Christians.
As is the case, it seems, no matter where we turn.
But I digress.
Thank you for correcting me on that, that alliance is not the right word to use.
I appreciate it.
Well, I think I use that word in the book at times, you know, but just that it's sort of a complicated, it's a complicated alliance.
Yeah, no, that makes total sense.
You know, as you can imagine, with somebody focused on the religious right and Christian nationalism, the chapters on the kind of histories of the religious right and evangelical interjections into these debates really caught my eye.
And you highlight some folks that'll be very familiar to many people listening.
Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell.
You go into Jerry Falwell's, I don't know the right word, entanglement with Larry Flint, the publisher of Hustler Magazine.
You also point out, and I think this is really important, that for Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell and their cohorts, Pornography was tied into other sins that were supposedly or are supposedly destroying America.
Abortion and homosexuality and all these things.
Would you mind helping us just understand that history briefly of the religious right and anti-porn sentiment?
Yeah, well, let me see how brief I can be.
Because we really, we can go back even further to the 19th century.
So I write about Anthony Comstock, who is a devout congregationalist.
He was a Civil War veteran, but he never actually made it onto the battlefields and said his battles were over inserting his Protestant beliefs into American law.
And He opposed any and all depictions of nudity, he opposed contraception, he opposed women's voting rights, and then of course he also opposed pornography.
And on this front, he was pretty successful in lobbying Congress to revise their obscenity laws to make harsher penalties.
So that's taking place in the latter half But if we jump ahead to like the 1950s and the budding Christian right that sort of can remind us of the movement we see today, we start seeing sexuality being used as this kind of metric for a national Christian identity.
So you mentioned Billy Graham, who kind of accuses people who were publicly promoting progressive values about sexuality As essentially being pornographers or peddling pornography.
So Billy Graham dedicated a series of radio sermons to critique the sexologist Alfred Kinsey, who had just published these bestsellers on human sexuality.
Folks like Billy James Hargis of Christian Crusades used his radio broadcast to really lump together Pornographers, homosexuals, and communists who were all thought to be ruining America.
So pornography begins to represent something really consequential, sort of the opposite of morality, wholesomeness, and these values that the Christian right thinks should dedicate American life.
In my research, I'm not a historian, so I didn't know a lot of this history.
And one of the things that I found most striking was how important the presidency of Richard Nixon was to sort of the entanglement of pornography, the Christian right, and their other concerns.
So maybe I'll just talk a little bit about that That bit of history, Nixon's campaign was in part included that pornography was bad for society and that he was going to crack down on it.
But he faced this interesting obstacle in that his predecessor, Lyndon B. Johnson, had organized a presidential commission on obscenity and pornography.
Where he was seeking an impartial, nonpartisan investigation as to whether pornography really was a serious social problem.
So the Senate had convened some hearings and there were conservatives who were saying, yes, this is, but he wanted to sort of have a more empirically based investigation of whether this was true.
And what the commission in fact found was that pornography was not a significant social problem, and instead they pointed to things like, you know, this is the late 1960s, race relations, reproductive rights, growing income inequality, all as being much more serious social concerns.
The problem for Nixon was that the commission was issuing its report In 1970, so a few years after it was convened and Nixon takes the presidency in 1969. So the media is talking about the Presidential Commission and Nixon does not want to be associated with it because it goes against his platform.
He does manage to get one member on the commission who is in his camp.
So this is Charles Keating.
He's somebody from Ohio.
He runs Citizens for Decent Literature, this anti-porn organization that has chapters throughout the country.
So he sends another member of the commission to serve as the ambassador for India and gets Keating to serve on this commission.
Keating, of course, opposes everything the commission says and he manages to release his own minority report before the other commission.
So this whole fiasco, it was a publicity nightmare for Nixon, but it also introduces pornography as part of like a presidential platform issue.
And I think that that is what we see carry over to the 1980s and the emergence of like the moral majority Christian right, President Reagan's platform.
So President Reagan Arranges the more famous Presidential Commission on Pornography and Obscenity.
He appoints his Attorney General.
Edwin Meese, who's a fellow born-again Christian, to convene his own commission.
It was released in 1986 that comes to the opposite conclusion of the previous commission, saying that pornography absolutely does harm Individuals, families, and society.
And throughout the 1980s we see that Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority, along with his allies, are really naming pornography as one of the, as you say, greatest sins of America alongside homosexuality and abortion.
So this is a decade that really cements gender and sexuality as being part of the core belief systems of the Christian right.
And so people like Falwell really see them as intertwined.
And it's not so different than I think what we're hearing today.
So like J.D. Vance, the GOP candidate for Senate in Ohio, In 2021, said that he opposes contraception, he thinks pornography should be entirely banned, all because he wants to protect his vision for American family.
Your work here really, I think, sets in context the rhetoric we hear today about groomers and pedophiles.
None of that is new, right?
That trying to paint folks who are in any way not part of the heteropatriarchal normative understanding of family and sexuality that Christian nationalists and others Would like to put forth in this country are labeled as the Texas GOP platform outlined just a couple of days ago as abnormal and to be wary of as,
you know, groomers or pedophiles or people trying to take down America and, you know, the idea that if you're queer and you're sex positive, you're porn positive, And you're for reproductive rights in the form of abortion, etc.
Then somehow you're trying to destroy the country.
And so you write really wonderfully about the meeting or meetings between Falwell and Flint, this publisher of Hustle magazine.
And as somebody who just wrote a book that included much material on Falwell, I want to thank you for writing about all that so that I didn't have to because I did.
I really didn't want to.
And I will say, folks, if you don't know that history about Jerry Falwell and Flint shaking hands and all the shenanigans that went down there, you should really dig into those chapters of this book.
This leads me to something that feels quite personal, and that is that there's this idea within conservative Christian circles today.
There's a booming industry, as I think you call it, of Products and services that help, especially young men, leave what is labeled porn addiction.
The reason this feels very personal is that the shooter in the Atlanta massacre about a year and three months ago came from a conservative Christian church.
Seemingly was raised with ideals centered on purity and purity culture and ended up killing six women of Asian descent and two others.
And when asked about it, one of the explanations was that he was a sex addict.
And so I wrote about this at the time, and it really was this intersection of misogyny and racism and this notion of sex addiction.
And so I'm wondering if you wouldn't...
Just in light of that and just how this has a real world effect on our public square, how is porn addiction framed in the kind of conservative Christian space, whether that's evangelical or others?
When someone says porn addiction in that kind of arena, what do they mean?
Well, I think first, within evangelical culture broadly, there are a lot of messages about sexuality, many of which are contradictory.
One of them is that teenage boys and men have very strong sexual desires and urges, that these desires are natural, but they have to be controlled outside of marriage.
And so there's a lot of talk about Biology and brains and how men's brains are quote-unquote wired to be attracted to visual stimuli that is pornography and for them to have a stronger sex drive than women.
And so this language of pornography addiction helps evangelicals come to terms With some of these contradictions, that they have very strong sexual urges, but that they have to be controlled.
And that men who do, quote unquote, act out sexually are doing so because of their physical addiction.
And so this removes blame from men themselves while also sort of upholding Their beliefs about sexuality.
So that's sort of the context.
And one of the things that I think is interesting when it comes to research on porn addiction, we know that white Protestant men are much more likely to perceive themselves as addicted to pornography Even when they tend to actually look at porn less frequently than men from other religious traditions or non-religious men.
So there's something going on with the meaning of pornography within their lives that makes them feel like when they look at it even less frequently than other guys, that this is in some way signaling an addiction.
Yeah, and I know you draw on the work of Josh Grubbs, and I know Sam Perry's done some work here too, and really showing that if you're an evangelical man, that if you look at pornography, you know, X minutes per day, five minutes per day, I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there.
You're more likely to think, I have a porn addiction, rather than someone who's not an evangelical, who may look at pornography more frequently or for more extended periods.
There's something there in terms of how you perceive yourself and your sexuality.
I'm wondering just briefly if we could talk about what happens when a young woman in this space expresses some of the same interest or quote-unquote struggle with pornography.
The reason I bring this up is I was a youth pastor when I was an evangelical, and I remember many young boys and teenage boys and men saying, hey, I've been watching pornography.
And I want to confess that sin.
And the reaction from the youth group leaders, right, the male leaders would be, hey, that's so brave of you to confess that.
It's obviously wrong.
Let's pray.
And we get it.
We understand.
But, you know, let's see if we can get past this.
I remember a young girl, 16, a young woman, expressed the same sentiment one time to a female leader, to someone she looked up to.
And the reaction among the leadership there was not, hey, we understand, we hope you can get past it.
It was, This is not right.
We need to be worried about her.
Do we need to get her some counseling?
Does she need to be sent away somewhere so that she can be fixed?
Because 16-year-old girls should not have this kind of sexual desire.
Does that kind of stigma and understanding of women's sexuality still remain in this space when it comes to pornography and so on?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think your description really maps on to what I observed over the course of my research.
So pornography is described as decidedly a quote-unquote man's problem.
At the same time though, of course the reality is that women, including Christian women, look at porn, desire to look at porn.
And so almost everybody I interviewed Would make this caveat to say, of course, there are some women for whom this is an issue.
They're in the minority, but this, of course, affects some women.
But for those women, they were described in really different ways.
So it wasn't normal and expected as part of their coming of age.
Instead, there was often something described as like something happening to them as a child, that like something went wrong somewhere along the way that meant that They deviated from normal sexuality in this way.
And I heard this even from women who themselves identified as sex addicts or addicted to masturbation.
They would describe how something went wrong when they were kids, with their early relationships, and that that's why they are struggling with this now.
So there's really uneven trajectories for men and women, where for men this is seen as a normal expected problem, but women are seen as actually Sam Perry has this great phrase that they're seen as sinning against their gender, that they're deviating in that way.
So I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's really an important point.
Well, you mentioned that if you read the literature in this domain, there's a lot of talk about brains and science and sexuality.
And so, you know, after all of your investigation and all the interviews you did with folks, I'm wondering just, you know, as we close here, if you have a take on is this understanding of human sexuality and porn addiction actually based on science or not?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So as a sociologist, I sort of get out of the debate of whether pornography addiction is really real, because I treat it as real to the extent that it shows up in people's lives.
But I will say that neither sex or cord addiction are classified as mental disorders in the DSM-5, which is the latest diagnostics manual used by the American Psychiatric Association.
The ISD-11, which is the international classification of disease used by the World Health Organization.
It does list compulsive sexual behavior disorder as an impulse disorder, but that's different from their section called disorders due to substance use and addictive behaviors.
So people within the porn addiction recovery movement love to talk about science and love to talk about in particular neuroscience.
I don't think that there's quite enough evidence to support this kind of direct analogy between porn addiction and You know, using drugs or alcohol.
I do think that there's evidence that a lot of people struggle to match their values with their behaviors, especially when it comes to internet technologies of all kind, whether it be internet porn, social media, online gaming, etc.
But what I think is unique when it comes to porn addiction is that there isn't a mobilized movement, really, for people who are addicted to Twitter, right?
And it doesn't mean the same kind of thing.
As does pornography.
So pornography is able to tap into really deep-seated beliefs about gender and about the place of sexuality.
You brought up the Atlanta shooter, and I think that this is really where this sort of comes to a head in some of the violent So, you know, to really tragic ends that the shooter self-identified as a Christian sex addict.
He targeted women of Asian descent who he perceived as sex workers.
And I think the contradiction is that churches...
We have taught him that his strong sexual desires are natural, but they also blame the sex industry on being complicit in fueling these desires.
So it makes sense that they would become the target of this aggression.
So I think that it is a space where the porn addiction recovery movement that is connected to a broader political movement that has really Real and dangerous consequences in people's lives.
Thank you so much for bringing that example up again, because it I think everything you just said there was was so insightful in terms of how this counterintuitively somebody thinking of themselves as as having a porn addiction leads to or can at least lead to violent impulses or understanding sex workers and women as in the words of the shooter, you know, Temptations to be annihilated or eradicated.
Anyway, we're out of time.
I feel like I could ask you a hundred more questions.
I also want to say that, do you think it means something about me that when you said Twitter addiction that I felt like you were looking right into my soul?
When you said that, I thought, wow, that's me.
Maybe I need to figure out my life.
No, I was looking at myself when I said that, Brad.
I have all sorts of measures set up so that I can't log on.
I don't have it on my phone.
I have to have very strict boundaries around that.
Yeah, I do too.
I download and then erase the Twitter app weekly and same with others, you know, Instagram and other stuff.
So, all right, enough about me.
Thank you for your time, Dr. Burke.
Thank you for just amazing work.
Where are places, speaking of Twitter, that people might link up with you?
Well, I am at at Kelsey Burke, K-E-L-S-Y-B-U-R-K-E on Twitter, and you can find The Pornography Wars wherever you buy your books.
That's awesome.
As always, you can find us at Straight White JC. You can find me at Bradley Onishi.
You can always use your help on PayPal and Patreon, and that's at StraightWhiteAmericanJesus.com.
We'll be back later this week with the weekly roundup, but for now, we'll just say thanks for listening, and have a good day.
