White Christian Replacement Paranoia w/ Robert Downen
Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus content most Mondays, bonus episodes every month, ad-free listening, access to the entire 500-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/
Brad discusses the alarming rise of white Christian replacement fears and Christian nationalism in Texas. The episode highlights a meme retweeted by the True Texas project, which endorses great replacement theory and Christian nationalism. The podcast features an in-depth conversation with Robert Downen from the Texas Tribune about the True Texas Project's controversial conference, Texas' new school curriculums integrating biblical stories, and the legal battle over Annunciation House, a Catholic charity aiding refugees. They delve into the far-right movements aiming to resist demographic changes perceived as threats to white Christian dominance.
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC
Order Brad's book: https://bookshop.org/a/95982/9781506482163
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
It's Brad here to say that until Labor Day, our Swatch Premium subscription is on sale for $50 a year.
You get access to our 600-episode archive, ad-free listening, an invite to our Discord server, bonus content on Mondays, and bonus content every month in the form of a special episode.
Check it out now.
It costs less per month than that latte you bought on the way to work today.
You've probably seen the meme.
In the first image, there's a bus coming down train tracks.
It's in the way of an oncoming train and dangerously about to be smashed into pieces.
In the next frame, the train does smash the bus into pieces and it's gone forever.
In the one I'm looking at, the first image says, you're a homophobe.
It's on the bus about to be destroyed.
It's about to get run over.
In the second, it's the train.
And across the train it says, I know.
So, the person posting it takes the accusation of being called a homophobe and says, I know, and runs right through.
This was a meme retweeted by the True Texas Project.
It's a project we'll talk about today that's holding its 15th anniversary conference this summer.
True Texas' goal is to make sure that white Christians are not replaced in this country.
The conference will have sessions on what we can only call Great Replacement Theory.
The threat to white Christians and what should be done about it.
There's even a book panel featuring Stephen Wolfe, the author of the case for Christian nationalism.
A man who's called for the implementation of a government with a Christian prince, who has said that interracial marriage in many cases is sinful, who has said that black people are a reliable source of criminality.
True Texas is just one phenomenon in that state that is focused on what I would call fears of white Christian replacement.
There's also the new proposed school curriculum that came to surface about a month and a half ago.
In that curriculum there are biblical teachings and stories from the scriptures throughout.
They're supposedly there to provide background so students can understand other cultural phenomena.
But it's raising questions about who gets to teach what and how teachers will handle questions about Christ and the crucifixion and the Bible.
And then there's a project to shut down a Catholic charity called Annunciation House.
That's right, the folks worried about Christian replacement are trying to shut down a Christian charity because they say Annunciation House's protection of refugees and advocacy that they do for refugees is something unlawful.
Apparently they're not the right kind of Christians.
I talk all about this with Robert Downan, who is a democracy reporter at the Texas Tribune.
You may have remembered Robert's stories about the Southern Baptist Convention and the Houston Chronicle from a couple of years ago.
He started a series called Abuse of Faith that really broke open so many of the things about the SBC that we now know regarding sexual abuse, cover-ups, and so on.
He's previously been a Hearst Media Fellow, and he continues to report on all things related to democracy and, in many cases, religion at the Texas Tribune.
Robert Downen, great to have you back on the show.
Thanks for being here.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Excited to talk to—well, excited may be the wrong word, but definitely, you know, interested and feel the need to talk about a bunch of stories you've been investigating and writing over at the Tribune.
And the way that I think about these stories is they're all kind of centered around fears of white Christian replacement.
There's a story about Annunciation House, a Catholic center that helps refugees.
There's a story about An upcoming conference with the True Texas organization that is basically a conference about replacement theory and Christian nationalism, touting Christian nationalism as something to adopt.
And then there's stories that I think people will be familiar with about Texas school curricula and infusing the Bible into what kids in Texas schools are taught.
I want to start with the one I think people are probably the least familiar with, and that is a story surrounding What is known as Annunciation House, which is an organization that helps refugees find their way in the country and in Texas.
Would you just be willing to tell us a little bit about Annunciation House and why Attorney General Paxton is so interested in trying to get it shut down?
Yeah, so Annunciation House is a Catholic charity associated with Catholic charities on the border, and it's existed for 50 years, you know, has helped thousands upon thousands of people, kind of, you know, migrants, you know, just with basic necessities, you know, helping them get settled here.
And I believe earlier this year, Paxton filed a lawsuit basically alleging, I believe that they had been surveilling it for a little bit and were making the case that it was, you know, they were basically involved in some sort of human smuggling or something, something to that effect.
And also, you know, kind of insinuating that they were, you know, potentially flouting immigration laws.
And on Tuesday of this week, so July 2nd, a judge came back and said that Paxton, the OAG's office, The AG's office attempts to shut down Annunciation House were a violation of their religious freedom and so kind of, you know, remains to be seen where it goes next.
But one of the reasons that we kind of really, you know, honed in on it is it kind of has come at the tail end, not the tail end, but amid this broader movement by right-wing Christian groups, Catholics and Evangelicals predominantly, to Well, not kind of.
Make the case that immigration and places like Annunciation House are working to undermine American Christianity.
Obviously, we know that an overwhelming number of migrants are themselves Christian.
There's some really good data from Ryan Burge.
Shout out to Ryan, my former professor, who in which he found that, you know, not only are they overwhelmingly Christian, but they're actually increasingly trending towards Protestantism.
I think the rate of Protestant conversions amongst first and second generation migrants, I may have that a little bit wrong, but it has nearly doubled since 2008.
And at the same time, this is happening.
You know, you have Lieutenant Governor of our state, Dan Patrick, talking about immigration being a part of a Marxist scheme to take God out of the country.
You've got Ed Young at Second Baptist Church of Houston, which is Dan Patrick's church, calling migrants garbage and saying that they're part of a scheme for a progressive godless dictatorship.
You've got Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, going on podcasts with right-wing Catholic groups such as Church Militant and saying the Catholic Charities is proof that Satan is controlling the church.
And so we're really seeing this really, you know, I think overt right-wing movement to not just tie immigration to, you know, this idea of a democratic, you know, replacement theory, but also to really go after their own in a way that I think is not necessarily new, but we thought was certainly something that needed to be kind of honed in on.
This is one of those stunning examples of how people who yell the loudest about wanting God in schools in a Christian country are attacking a Christian organization and making what feels like a very incoherent argument that the existence of entities like Annunciation House are going to allow into the country people who are not Christian, who are godless, who are Marxist, who are going to be
Fed into some sort of Democratic Party pipeline and vote for them in every turn.
They're making this argument against a Christian organization.
And one of the things that caught my eye about this story, Robert, was that this is one of those moments where the judge came back and said, sorry, you know, Attorney General Ken Paxton, this this is not going to stand, I'm not going to rule in your favor, because To do so would overrun the religious freedom of the group you're attacking.
And again, I just want to point out that the people who yell the loudest about religious liberty here are attacking a Catholic organization that has existed for 50 years to help the vulnerable.
It's a really stunning kind of framing of the whole story.
Well, and I think that one of the things that is really interesting about this case and the context in which it's occurring is, you know, Not to ascribe everything in this story to over-Christian nationalism, but many of the players, many of the people, you know, the loudest on this issue are over-Christian nationalists, so I feel comfortable saying that.
There's indeed a conflict that you mentioned.
If the idea of this Christian nationalist movement was to Christianize the country, why are they not rushing to the border to bring in these migrants?
I mean, ostensibly, if you wanted to Christianize America, that would be the fastest way to do it.
At the same time that they are not doing that, they are holding up places like Hungary as a model of an ideal Christian society.
Hungary is, I believe, slightly more secular than Canada.
It ranks around the middle for, you know, the rate of Christians there.
And so it really does kind of expose this, I think, you know, what Christian nationalist experts would say is the kind of subtle ethno-nationalism that I think is really at the core of, you know, a lot of these movements.
Well, you can see that in Marjorie Taylor Greene's statements.
I mean, in the piece, you point out that she claims that Catholic Charities are proof of Satan controlling the Church.
You have other far-right Catholics who, you write in the piece, mobilized against groups such as Catholic Charities and places like Annunciation House, branding it an enemy of the people.
It really feels like here the question is not, is this a Christian organization, a Christian mission, but is it the right kind of Christian organization?
And I think your example of Hungary is a really perfect case in point of that Hungary is less Christian, quote-unquote, per capita than the United States, and yet it's seen as this beacon of Christian nationhood by so many on the right.
It feels like you're supposed to be the right kind of Christian rather than simply a Christ follower.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, I was going to add that.
I mean, I think that it is really on two fronts really kind of so emblematic of the kind of cognitive dissonance and really flaws with this movement.
You know, I was talking to someone, just a, you know, random guy I met at a protest a few months ago.
And, you know, he was a Baptist pastor, you know, Very, very, you know, self-described Christian Zionist, and you know, him and I started talking about Christian nationalism, and he had this, you know, his conception of it was what I think a lot of people have unfortunately conflated that term with, which is this idea that, like, your faith should inform your politics.
And as we kind of started to talk about it, I was like, okay, well, if it, you know, if we're going off of the premise that America's laws and institutions should reflect Christianity.
There's a metropolitan church down the street with an LGBTQ pride flag.
Do they, like, clearly you guys are on different sides of that issue, and it very quickly gets into exactly what you're talking about, this territory of like, oh no, it's not a Christian nation that this movement seeks, it is a Nation that reflects their very narrow and often rigid interpretation and that project requires them to also cast other Christians as not true believers or misguided at best.
Yeah, you know, if I just come back to that Marjorie Taylor Greene quote, she's talking about a group, Catholic Charities, that do, among other things, help refugees, and instead of saying, here's a statement she could have made, you know, I'm not sure that I, as a Christian, fall in the same line with my brothers and sisters in Christ in the way that they approach immigration, and they prioritize welcoming those from other countries into our country.
Right.
OK.
Well, I disagree.
I don't like that.
It does not fit my politics or my interpretation of the kingdom of God.
But nonetheless, Marjorie Taylor Greene, if you had said that, there's openings there for discussion.
Instead, the response is the existence of Catholic charities equals Satan controls the church.
Like, there's no way for democracy or negotiation or dialogue there, or Christian fraternity.
It's just simply You're from Satan.
And over what?
Because you denied the Lordship of Jesus?
Because you don't believe in the Trinity?
Because you said God's Word is not inspired?
Nope.
Because you're focused on welcoming the stranger.
That is why this is so stunning and so dangerous, I think, to me.
And so, any final thoughts on this before we go to something that is looming on the horizon here, and that's a big Christian nationalist conference in Texas?
Yeah, I mean, I guess I would just say, what you described, I think, is reflective of, you know, I'm obviously someone who pays a lot of attention to the Southern Baptist Convention, but as we've kind of seen, you know, as polarization has gripped literally every facet of our life, including the church and denominational life, like, I think that it's really started...
Take the Southern Baptists, for example.
If you look at them on paper, if you look at their views, they are about as theologically and politically conservative as they've ever been.
And yet, they are in this moment where they are not in a civil war, per se, but there is a lot of deep-rooted conflict in there.
And I think that that is kind of emblematic of what happens when It's kind of this purity test Christianity, where if you are not with us 100% on every issue, then you are not of us.
And I think that that's a really, you know, reflective of our broader political moment.
I mean, I think you can make the argument that, I don't know which one is driving which, but you know, it's obviously something that we are seeing across, you know, many parts of our society right now.
Well, and just to come back to the original Just to come back to the original theme here, you know, the fear that is throughout the piece you wrote, and obviously folks can go read this, is Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick and others in Texas have talked about a fear of, you know, Christianity being replaced, a fear of white Christians no longer being the kind of cultural
Predominant force, and this really is a fear of white Christian replacement, and if folks think that I'm exaggerating that, well, I think we need to look no further than the upcoming True Texas conference, and it's the 15th anniversary of True Texas, so I want to get into the details of that, the contours, but would you just help us understand first, for those who don't know, what is the True Texas project?
Sure, so True Texas Project, it started as the, you know, kind of the nexus of Texas's Tea Party movement, you know, 15 years ago.
Kind of, you know, does on-the-ground mobilization, get-out-the-vote, candidate forums, all these types of things with, you know, really a lot of prominent elected officials including Ted Cruz, Attorney General Ken Paxton, most, you know, a lot of further right lawmakers in the state.
One thing that I think is also really important to point out here is that True Texas Project is Funded by, you know, it is directly tied to two West Texas billionaires that I know you guys have talked about on the show, Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes, who have kind of over the last decade or so spent, you know, tens of millions of dollars to just slowly move the Overton window and kind of pull the state further right.
And True Texas Project, you know, for a long time was kind of seen as a little bit, you know, it wasn't It was kind of just seen, you know, as a leader in the Tea Party movement.
And I think it's also worth mentioning that before we get into the conference, in 2019, the leaders of True Texas Project, after the El Paso Walmart shooting in which someone drove from Dallas to El Paso to kill 23 Hispanic people out of Walmart because they believed in the Great Replacement Theory.
After that happened, the leader of True Texas Project, Julie McCarty, got on Facebook and said that she didn't condone the actions but certainly understood where the shooter came from.
Her husband, who is also a leader of this group, then chimed in and said something to the effect of, you're not going to demographically replace once proud people without some blowback.
I mean, this is great replacement.
There's no question about this.
And those remarks were widely reported.
And yet that did not dissuade pretty much anyone that I know of, including top elected officials such as Ted Cruz, from leaning on this group, meeting with them, etc.
And so one other thing about this is this is all happening.
This conference, which we'll get to in a moment, is all happening in the tail end of a pretty massive scandal in Texas brought on by our reporting in which we found that Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes top political operative had hosted Nick Fuentes for seven hours ago.
If you guys aren't familiar with Nick Fuentes, That sounds lovely.
I mean, a true Nazi, like, he is a Nazi.
We're not using that word as, like, he's a Nazi.
He is a fan of Hitler.
He's a white supremacist.
Nick Fuentes is a bad, bad, bad actor with terrible, racist, disgusting views.
And so, sorry, interjection there.
No, no, that's fine.
Hi, my name is Peter and I'm a prophet in the new novel, American Prophet.
I was the one who dreamed about the natural disaster just before it happened, and the pandemic, and that crazy election.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not bragging.
It's not like I asked for the job.
Actually, no one would ask for this job.
At least half the people will hate whatever I say and almost everyone thinks I'm a little crazy.
Getting a date is next to impossible.
I've got a radio host who is making up conspiracies about me, a dude actually shooting at me, and an unhinged president threatening me.
But the job isn't all that bad.
I've gotten to see the country, and meet some really interesting people, and hopefully do some good along the way.
You can find my story on Amazon, Audible, or iTunes.
Just look for American Prophet by Jeff Fulmer.
That's American Prophet by Jeff Fulmer.
And so we reported on that, we staked out this meeting, and then kind of uncovered even more overt anti-Semites and racists working in that network.
There was this massive scandal last year that prompted the Texas GOP's executive committee to Debate and narrowly reject a resolution that would have banned anti-Semites and neo-Nazis and Holocaust deniers from the party.
That failed and then after some public pressure they came back and did a very watered-down version of it.
So I want to be like it's very important to understand the context of this conference.
And so this conference which is happening I believe next week It's the 15th birthday celebration of this group, True Texas Project, and it took me probably five to seven reads of the agenda, because every single time I did, I was like, whoa, you notice something new every time.
And I mean, it starts with, I believe the opening session is basically, the quote is, the war on white America.
And it talks about, you know, how there's an intentional effort to rid the earth, not just America, rid the earth of the white race.
Again, just overt, like, that is neo-Nazi ideology.
And then goes into, you know, it had some panels on immigration that were kind of, you know, Asking the question and you know, it's what these groups often do is I'm not saying I'm just asking the question, you know Does the immigrant contribute anything or are they just sucking off the teat of America?
And then kind of went into I think one of the other panels is just an open embrace of Great Replacement Theory The person leading that panel, you know, he is vociferously denied, you know, he has tried to Say that his version of Great Replacement Theory is You know, he has this long paper where he decries the extremist elements that have, you know, used it to as justification for violence.
And he basically is making the case that, you know, we're not allowed to talk about demographic changes in America because the left has, you know, turned any recognition of that into racism.
Which is, and you know, I've asked him this before and he declined an interview request.
It's like, why?
Okay, you could have that conversation.
You could easily talk about demographic replacement.
Like, that's something that we write about.
Like, we write about all the time about how, you know, the state is getting more Hispanic or, you know, the share of Christians in America is on the down.
Like, there are entire fields of study and prominent people and journalists who write about that all the time.
But for some reason they are, you know, deciding to use the term great replacement theory while acknowledging the violence that's come with it.
And then there's two panels on Christian nationalism.
One was Stephen Wolfe, who's the author of Case for Christian Nationalism, which I'm sure you guys have talked about.
And then Andrew Isker, who is another author, Christian nationalist author, who is very good friends.
I'm sorry, he co-authored his book with Andrew Torba, who founded the far right social media platform Gab, which has kind of been a safe haven for neo-Nazis for a long time.
And, you know, Torba has often, you know, often collaborated with Nick Fuentes.
And then closing the session out is a guy named Paul Gottfried, who is a little bit lesser known of a name to a lot of people, but, you know, given my job is covering far-right extremism, like, I knew his name.
And one of his big claims, two of his big claims to fame is that he coined the term alt-right, which, you know, was, and he was kind of the kind of leader of this, that movement to kind of intellectualize and move away from maybe, you know, like, you know, to kind of just intellectualize race science and all of this type of stuff.
He mentored Richard Spencer.
And he has since, you know, disavowed Spencer and, you know, he notes that he is Jewish and has kind of come out, you know, somewhat strongly against Spencer.
But at the same time that he's doing that, he's also been hosting a conference.
He runs what's called the H.L.
Mencken Club, and it's this annual get together that has included some of the most prominent white nationalists and white supremacists and eugenicists in the world.
I mean, from Jared Taylor to the leader of V-Dare, you know, these groups that are really at the forefront of a burgeoning, I guess, white nationalist, white supremacist, whatever is you want to use for them movement. whatever is you want to use for them movement.
And really, you know, when I talked to a few extremism experts about this conference, and one of the things that really stood out to them was that, you know, if you were to go in cold to this conference and start and go to every single session, it would be a good thing.
It starts with the concept of there's a war on white America and basically just slowly makes your way through to like the final question with Gottfried, which is what are we going to do about it?
And also, you know, his concept of there are no enemies to the right.
And so that does beg the question, I think, for this conference is, OK, Paul Gottfried, sure, I'll accept his word that he that he disavows, you know, Richard Spencer.
But when someone like that is making the case that there are no enemies to the right, who is to the right of Paul Gottfried?
I mean, it I think is I think, you know, really was just, you know, the setup and agenda for this conference, I think really, you know, I'll quote the experts, the terrorism experts I talked to, which was basically, you know, they said that this seemed almost tailor made to kind of radicalize people.
And to do it under a veneer of religious justification.
Yeah.
So first of all, thank you for that incredible rundown.
And I want to back up and just make sure everybody understands some of the basic Facts of this organization and the conference.
So here we have True Texas, and it's called True Texas because in 2019 they had to rebrand, like they had to change their name because the leader, okay, said publicly, I don't condone the killing of 23 Hispanic people in El Paso, but I can understand why this person did it.
Okay, That is, you know, Robert, people ask me to speak around the country at various, you know, groups and churches and humanist groups.
If there was ever, I mean, I can't imagine telling myself, well, You know, I'm going to go give a talk at this thing.
Four years ago, five years ago, the founder expressed like explicit sympathies with a mass shooter who killed people in a racially motivated mass shooting of almost two dozen people.
But, you know, times have changed.
They've rebranded.
It looks like they're going in the right direction.
Yeah, why not?
Why don't I go participate?
I mean, anyone who is willing to be part of this is now part of that legacy.
So I, this is me talking now.
I just want to put that out there.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.
That's part of anyone who's involved.
Uh, being involved in this.
Now, this is funded, as you said, by the two Texas billionaires that really are, like, acting as puppets of conservatism and Christian nationalism in Texas, Dunn and Wilkes.
We've talked about those guys, but I just want to, like, sort of paint the picture for people so they don't miss this.
Two Christian nationalists giving millions of dollars to an organization that is tainted by this express sympathy with a mass shooter who killed people because they were not white.
And then you have not only these panels on Great Replacement Theory, but you have these two panels by openly Christian nationalist pastors and theologians.
There's no way to deny, when you have a conference like this, with Stephen Wolf and Isker, presenting at the True Texas Conference, that Christian nationalism, at least in many forms, is entangled in integral ways With white nationalism, with a sense of the need for drastic action to prevent white replacement, and all of the violence that accompanies those kinds of movements.
And so I want to talk a little bit more about the fact that those two guys are there.
Just wondering if there's any more, you know, kind of details that come to mind or aspects of this that are, you know, front of mind for you as we discuss the, like, very basic underlying facts about this organization.
I guess I should correct myself.
Tim Dunn has come out recently and disputed that he is a Christian nationalist, which, fine.
My personal view, and this is something I would like to explore more, is that their politics is eschatological in nature.
But that's a whole other conversation.
I just, I want the transcript to note that Brad is laughing hilariously in the background at the idea that Tim Dunn is not a Christian nationalist, but that's just Brad, not Robert.
Okay.
Yeah.
Let's talk about the fact that here we have Stephen Wolfe, who wrote a book called The Case for Christian Nationalism, which I've talked about extensively in the show, I've read it, and you report this, and it's totally right.
Stephen Wolfe is somebody who has said that we are living in what he calls a gynocracy, Which is his anti-feminist misogynist stance about women in leadership and politics and so on.
He said that black people are reliable sources for criminality, who need more constraint.
And he's mentioned, and I've talked about this on the show, that interracial marriage is sinful.
In many cases, because groups, quote, have a collective duty to be separate and marry among themselves, Isker talks all the time, and so does Wolf, if you read his book, about kin and homeland and loving your country in a way that the hearth and the homeland are prioritized.
I just don't know how else to tell people that there's a fusion here of ethno-nationalism and Christianity.
It's very plain when you look at this conference, and the fact that these guys are willing to be there is evidence.
Now, because of your reporting, some people have backed out.
Would you give us a few updates about people saying, oh, in fact, I'm not going to be able to make it because the Tribune just published this thing and it's probably not a good idea?
Yeah, we saw three people pull out.
Todd Bensman, who works at the Center for Immigration Studies.
But more notably, Louie Gohmert, former congressman, who is certainly no stranger to having some views that some would call fringe.
He pulled out, as did even more, I guess, noteworthy, Don Huffines, who is a former state senator and who Is very responsible, you know, I just a background on Huffines.
In 2022, he ran against Governor Greg Abbott and was, you know, got a lot of funding from Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes.
And one of the things that I think people don't fully realize about Abbott is, you know, he was by no means a, you know, soft on the border before 2022.
But if you look at the way that he has kind of changed his tone, there were things that even in, you know, in the wake of the El Paso Walmart shooting, for instance, he publicly came out and said that he was going to stop using the term invasion at the border.
And then, you know, five or six years later, five years later, he is in, you know, the state of Texas is invoking that language both in legal documents and in public to justify, you know, what was happening in Eagle Pass.
And a lot of that is because, I think, of the pressure that Abbott faced from particularly Huffines, but in the wake of that, you know, just a broader, you know, he's not afraid of losing votes to his left.
I'll say that much.
And Huffines also, in his 2020 campaign, faced some other blowback because he had on his staff Nick Fuentes, his former top commander, who has since broken with Fuentes, but was fresh off of having a YouTube show where he celebrated black people being shot by police.
All of these just really, I think, overtly racist things.
And he was asked if he would fire that person and...
And he basically said, no, I won't bend to cancel culture.
And this conference for even him was like too much.
So, so the dude who you just described all of the ways he pushed Abbott to the right, uh, a former Fuentes commander on staff, uh, all of the things you just, all of the bullet points.
And that guy was like, yeah, I don't think I can participate in this.
It's too extreme.
Not only that like he was like vociferously like he put out a very strong statement on it basically saying like I had no idea this is what this was about had I known I would never have taken part like this is stupid like it was it was a pretty heated statement and especially uh with a statement issued in response to a group that and and really network that has really been his political ally for a long time so I think it really did just kind of speak to just how
All right, let's transition into something that is a story that broke a little further back at the end of May, and it's really about some new dynamics that are making their way into Texas school curricula.
And it's really an infusion of Bible lessons, Bible stories, Bible content into the classrooms in Texas.
So, we've talked about this on the show before, but you're the person who reported this story, you have so many details and so much insight here.
What is happening in terms of the potential for the Bible to be taught in Texas schools, at least in some form, and that this is what's up for debate.
Is it teaching about the Bible?
Is it teaching the Bible?
Is it teaching Christianity through the Bible?
You know, those are the things people are debating, but what are the dynamics here at play?
Yeah, you know, I admittedly, I'm not an education reporter, so I, excuse me if I flub a little bit of the details about the actual, you know, process here, but like, basically, it is supplemental material that goes along with, you know, elementary school level art history classes, that type of stuff.
And so, you know, you have, for instance, Paired with Martin Luther King's letter from Birmingham Jail, supplemental materials on Nebuchadnezzar, who King notes in his letter as a, or I'm sorry, not Nebuchadnezzar, notes that story as a good example of civil disobedience.
Now, what I found interesting in that, and which we asked the TEA commissioner about, Martin Luther King Jr.' 's letter was explicitly written to white moderates and white clergy in particular.
And the lessons do not make any mention of that.
There is no reference to the anesthetizing security of stained glass windows, for example.
However, at the same time that they are divorcing the intent and audience of that letter,
They are reaching back, you know thousands of years to the Old Testament for a story to kind of Create a biblical parallel and you know, I think that that is really again You know in talking to again Christian nationalist experts and you know other people church-state separation experts on this I think that that is actually, you know, very telling of the
need of this movement to sanitize and whitewash America's history.
Because in the same way that David Barton, you know, in the same way that for David Barton's ideas about Thomas Jefferson to work, he has to downplay Jefferson's, you know, owning of slaves and whitewash the founding fathers more broadly, because obviously we can't be a God-ordained owning of slaves and whitewash the founding fathers more broadly, because obviously we can't be a God-ordained nation if our nation was
In that same vein, I think that there is a very real parallel effort right now in Texas and probably to come nationally to really sanitize our nation's history.
Because absent doing so, you cannot, I think it is much harder to make the case that we were founded as a Christian nation when we were founded in what we were founded in, I guess. .
Well, thank you, Robert, for a great conversation today.
I appreciate you coming back.
I appreciate you sharing your reporting on these stories with us.
I want to thank all of you for listening.
As a reminder, you can get Swatch Premium for $50 a year, and that will give you access to so many things, including the bonus content for this episode, about 12 to 15 more minutes with Robert.
Check it out.
It's in the show notes.
You get access to the bonus content we do every Monday.
We do a bonus episode, a two-hour episode, every month.
You have access to our 600-episode archive, ad-free listening, and an invite to our Discord server.
If you're in Texas, check out the Texas Tribune Festival, September 5 to 7.
Robert will be there.
He'll be on stage, as he said, with Aunt Thea Butler, with Representative James Tallarico, and also Dr. Eric McDaniel from the University of Texas, Austin.
Two scholars, a journalist, and a representative.
It promises to be a fantastic time.
Thanks for being here.
We appreciate your support.
We'll be back Wednesday with It's In The Code and Friday with the Weekly Roundup.
