America's Suffering From Social Long Covid w/ Dr. Eric Klinenberg
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Brad Onishi discusses with Eric Klinenberg the long-lasting social and political effects of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States, framing it as a form of 'social long COVID.' The conversation highlights how the events of 2020 intensified distrust in government and deepened societal divisions, setting the stage for challenges in the 2024 elections. They also explore the symbolic role of face masks in these divisions and the impact of local mutual aid networks. Looking ahead, they assess how unresolved issues from 2020 continue to influence American civic life and political attitudes.
00:00 Introduction: The Lingering Effects of 2020
01:25 The Social Disease of Long COVID
02:04 Reflecting on the Pandemic's Impact
02:12 Interview with Eric Kleinberg
04:07 The Symbolism of Masks
07:49 America's Unique Pandemic Response
25:38 Mutual Aid Networks and Community Resilience
31:49 The Structural Isolation Crisis
36:25 Looking Ahead to the 2024 Election
43:31 Conclusion: The Future of American Democracy
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experience in the united states during 2020 intensified accelerated deepened the forms of distrust and the division.
The outrage, the righteousness that characterized American culture in the preceding decade.
So I think that got locked in during 2020.
And the reason I think we're still experiencing We just haven't reckoned with what we went through in 2020.
not the medical condition, but social disease, is that we just haven't reckoned with what we went through in 2020.
We've had this will not to know about it, but I think we are in 2024 with our bodies set to 2020. - It's 2024, but as Eric Kleinberg says, for many of us, our bodies but I think we are in 2024 with our bodies set to 2020. - It's 2024, but as Eric Kleinberg says, for many of us, our bodies still think it's 2020.
We're living with the resentment, the outrage, the sense of abandonment that set in during the pandemic.
Now, as we face an election in 2024 with two candidates who have already faced off, who seem like old news, a question looms.
How will the social disease of long COVID affect the 2024 elections?
We've never really dealt with the pandemic as a country.
Never had a unifying moment that brought us back together.
Never had a ritual to reunite the fabric of American society after years that tried to tear us apart.
Now we're left with large-scale distrust in government, a breakdown of American institutions, a sense that despite what the Biden administration says about the economy or new jobs or the future of manufacturing, many feel as if the country's headed in the wrong direction.
I spoke with Eric Kleinberg about 2020 and what hindsight about the pandemic might tell us about the future.
I'm Brad Onishi, and this is Straight White American Jesus.
I don't know.
Eric Kleinberg is the Helen Gold Shepard Professor in the Social Sciences and Director of the Institute for Public Knowledge at New York University.
He's the co-author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Modern Romance, and author of Palaces for the People, Going Solo, Heat Wave, and Fighting for Air.
He's contributed to The New Yorker, The New York Times Magazine, Rolling Stone, Wired, and This American Life.
It was an amazing conversation with Eric about 2020.
I know what some of you are thinking.
That's a year I don't want to ever relive again, much less think about.
But reading his book really showed me that 2020 has set the table for where we are now.
And that unless we're willing to understand what the pandemic revealed about American society, we really can't understand where we are in 2024.
As I spoke to Eric, I realized that looking back to 2020 will prepare us for what's ahead of us in this election cycle.
No matter what happens, we are facing a tough road.
There are reasons to think that there will be civil unrest and perhaps violence, whether Trump or Biden win, whether Trump goes to jail.
Whatever the Black Swan events that are ahead for us, there's no doubt for me that after reading this book, understanding our recent past will help us chart a path for the future.
Dr. Kleinberg, thanks for joining me.
I first want to just say thanks for writing this book.
When I first started to dive in, I wasn't sure I was ready to go back to 2020.
And I think that it's a set of events that a lot of us are still processing.
A lot of us probably want to block it out.
But as I dug into the book, I realized how much there was not only to learn, but to analyze.
I want to start with something you wrote in the New York Times just a few months ago.
You wrote, I've come to think of our current condition as a kind of long COVID, a social disease that intensified a range of mental chronic problems and instilled the belief that the institutions we've been taught to rely on are unworthy of our trust.
The result is a durable crisis in American civic life.
Would you just help us connect the dots there to what the COVID pandemic did to bring in such a sense of mistrust in our American institutions?
First, let me thank you for having me on your podcast.
I really admire the work you're doing.
And second, let's just, let's dive in.
I mean, we remember like before 2020, it's not like everything was wonderful back then.
On the contrary.
But the argument I make in my book is that our experience in the United States during 2020 intensified, accelerated, deepened the forms of distrust and the division, the outrage, the righteousness,
Uh, that characterized American culture in the, in the preceding decade could took all those things to new places.
And we got locked into these additions.
I mean, in the book, there's a whole chapter about why.
Face masks became objects of contention and conflict in the United States.
Like we were fighting each other physically in grocery stores and airplane aisles and public parks and Starbucks, like in ways that no people in any other country on earth did.
And I really wanted to understand that.
So I think that got locked in during 2020.
And the reason I think we're still experiencing We just haven't reckoned with what we went through in 2020.
We've had this will not to know about it.
Even those people who were really concerned about it at the time, like you, when you did the intro, we don't want to go back there.
and by the way like that's worthy of an essay in and of itself because like nobody wants no everyone feels like i can't go back to 2020 while they're reading a book about the holocaust or and like spending their days looking at the israeli massacre of palestinians in gaza like we're fine with all that but we can't deal with 2020 i find that so puzzling and fascinating and weird so it's my concern that what's happened is
That state of being we were in in 2020 when like we saw someone not wearing a mask if we were pro-mask people and we felt that our blood boil.
It felt this outrageous indignation.
We're still walking around America like that and we become so skeptical of Authorities, we've become skeptical of government.
By the way, bipartisan, like we really don't believe in government.
We're very skeptical of the expert class, scientific experts, health agencies, and more concerning, we're skeptical of each other on many registers.
There's a big section in the book I hope we can talk about on mutual aid, so I think there's a lot of amazing local stuff happening.
But I think we are in 2024.
We're living in 24 with our bodies set to 2020.
And I think that's a big part of the dysfunction.
What made this country's response unique?
You talked about the ways that we fought in the grocery store, in the Starbucks.
But there's a strong argument in the book that compared to other developed democracies, the United States had an exceptional approach to the pandemic.
What did that look like coming from our leaders and then how did that affect things on the ground?
We were not the worst country in the world when it comes to pandemic response.
We didn't have the highest death rate.
We didn't have the highest incidence of disease per capita.
Compared to the countries we like to compare ourselves to, affluent, democratic societies that have a built up welfare state and big institutions, America failed miserably.
And I want to make sure we are dealing with all the right metrics.
We didn't just fail miserably when it comes to mortality, but our mortality was off the charts.
We failed more than other countries when it came to generating distrust and accelerating division.
We missed a chance to build solidarity.
And to be honest, a lot of places on earth were able to build that, at least at the social level.
There's a long list of things that we did badly and some of them we know very well.
I guess the one that I don't want to harp on too much because I presume people listening to this podcast spend a lot of time thinking about it, but I need to know it anyway.
It's just, we were profoundly misled and The bungling of this health issue from the federal government down through state and municipalities, it's hard to think of many places on earth that matched it.
And in the book, I start with the very beginning of the book with this comparison between what happened when these two cruise ships, the Grand Princess and the Diamond Princess, left port, the Diamond Princess left Japan, the Grand Princess left San Francisco, U.S.
Within a few weeks of each other.
And we won't go into the details, but essentially in Japan, when they discovered that there were cases of COVID on the Diamond Princess, they brought the ship back into port.
They sent epidemiologists and health experts on.
They did a very careful quarantine.
They brought iPhones and tablets for people so they could be in contact with other people.
They provided as much information as they could, were transparent, slowly brought people back onto land, got people treated if they tested positive, used the event as a learning experience to improve their pandemic response.
And they didn't handle it perfectly.
It was a really confusing time.
We didn't know much about the disease.
A lot of people died.
They took the lessons from that as guides for the policy for the next year, and Japan was one of the best places on earth to be during 2020.
In the U.S., it couldn't have been a more different story from the beginning.
The president refused to let the ship come back to U.S.
land.
People will probably remember that.
We literally stranded this grand princess out at sea until finally And when Trump went, I was like, I like the numbers where they are.
That's that was the famous line from that.
And there was chaos on board.
People didn't really get clear explanation of what was going on.
They were finding out what was happening about their own ship from social media.
They eventually were allowed back onto land after there was a lot of pressure.
But interestingly, for people who know American geography, the ship was supposed to go back to San Francisco.
They wouldn't let it in San Francisco.
They sent it instead to Oakland, which is a black and Latino working class city.
I lived in Oakland for a long time.
There's a real symbolism there.
Like, no, we're not going to put it in the fancy place.
We're sending it to Oakland.
Then when Americans were let back onto land, the U.S.
took people to military bases and to military hospitals and these makeshift quarantine facilities.
But in the U.S., again, unlike Japan, people refused to quarantine, they refused to be tested, and people left, and the whole thing ended in all these lawsuits.
And you could see, like, in the early days, this is really the beginning of the crisis, That the U.S.
was just set up for a multiple, for failures on multiple levels.
And in the book, what I try to do is go through the politics and the culture and the sociological reasons that 2020 was so destructive here.
And again, I want to emphasize It's not all the fault of the 45th president, but man, did that guy grew it up.
I want to come back to the mood of the country and what people are feeling in terms of Biden and Trump and so on.
Before we go there, let's talk about social symbols a little bit further.
You mentioned this with masks, but as a scholar of religion, I loved in the book all of the references to Durkheim, to totemism, to symbology, and so on and so forth.
But social symbols often lead to bonds and to trust.
And you've already talked about trust today.
During the pandemic, the mask became a symbol.
I live in the Bay Area.
I live in San Jose, so I know exactly what Oakland and San Francisco represent.
San Jose is another working-class place that's often considered a kind of little brother to San Francisco.
If San Francisco is Manhattan, San Jose is one of the outer boroughs, like very, very much so.
Here, however, in the Bay, wherever you were during the pandemic, masks were almost ubiquitous.
There was just very few instances of seeing somebody dare to cross the line of going into Target or going into the coffee shop without the mask.
But when they did, I will be honest, it did get my blood boiling.
There were places that I saw employees I mean, there was a local pizza shop on the corner of my neighborhood, and I saw employees there not wearing masks, and I refused to go back, even though it was my local pizza shop.
Here's my point.
The mask became a symbol, and I'm just wondering if you can unpack that for us.
What did the mask symbolize for different Americans?
I do a really close analysis of how this happened, and it really is unusual.
And it's so important because it really gets at how this country got divided even more than we were.
And I know that's saying something.
It might sound preposterous.
Eric, don't you know how fucked up things were before 2020?
Yes, I do.
But honestly, we took it to a different level.
And the mask story explains that really well.
So basically, one curiosity about 2020 at the global level, WHO did not recommend that people wear masks until the end of March and the beginning of April.
When the science around this new coronavirus came in and it's curious because there are a lot of countries that had experience with SARS and with other coronaviruses and knew that the right face mask worn in the right way was likely to prevent transmission or at least to dramatically reduce transmission.
Now, in the early days of the pandemic, there was a real effort from China and from the WHO to kind of downplay the possibilities that masks could do this in this crisis.
And one argument is that they were just concerned that there weren't enough masks in the global supply.
They recommended masks, there would be a run on them, and medical providers and other essential workers wouldn't get them.
Another is that China was really lobbying the WHO to try to play down the seriousness of this crisis.
By the way, I should say here's an area where the Trump administration's refusal to continue epidemiological surveillance programs in China, the way that they alienated people in the World Health Organization, other health agencies with their kind of anti-epidemiology, anti-public health policies, put the U.S.
in a tough position.
To shape the global conversation.
But for whatever reason, there was not a mask mandate or mask requirement globally in the first months of the pandemic.
I should note the countries that were affected by SARS in 2003, 2004, Taiwan, Singapore, Japan, South Korea, China, even Canada, they picked up masks much more quickly.
They didn't wait for the WHO.
Actually, Australia and New Zealand also.
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Being here in the Bay Area where there's so many folks who are from those parts of East Asia, masks were not an exception.
I mean, there was even here in California and at least in my region, there was a kind of understanding that sometimes you wear a mask because like you don't feel well and you're on the train and you don't want to get everyone else sick.
Like a mask was not seen even before COVID as like this just exceptional effort to do something to It's a really striking thing.
It was almost like you kind of get used to some folks wearing masks because maybe they have a cold or maybe they just, for whatever reason, they feel like they need to today.
And no one cared.
You know what I mean?
And so it's a really striking thing.
And, you know, the first character in the book is this woman, Mei Li, who's the principal of an elementary school in Chinatown in the Lower East Side of Manhattan.
And she talks about the fact that all the families in her community in January, February, started getting masks, wearing them.
And it is I know a lot of Americans who are who are struck by the fact that when they go to Japan for vacation or China, they're not.
They see lots of people wearing masks and it's not because they're trying to protect themselves.
They're wearing masks because they don't want other people to get sick.
I mean sometimes it's to prevent allergies too, but like that masks are a symbol of solidarity for a lot of people and I think let's go back to that.
So basically, in late March, there was enough science linking right masks worn the right way to reduce transmission of the disease that the World Health Organization and then the CDC changed the tune and they start to recommend mask wearing.
So I write in the book about April 3rd, which is when the CDC changes its policy.
And the person who announces the CDC's policy change publicly is the last president, Donald Trump.
And there's this amazing press conference where he gets up and says, today the CDC has changed its guidelines.
They are recommending that all Americans wear masks when they're in public settings around other people, which sounds like the completely sane, reasonable way to communicate it.
He pauses for a beat and he says, personally, I'm not going to do it.
And I don't think that you need to either.
And so just like, think about the message this sends as public health policy.
To ordinary Americans.
Now, look, it is possible to overstate the power and influence of a president.
The president's not the only person who's sending out messages.
And obviously there are a lot of people who didn't trust that president.
But one thing social scientists know about political power is that presidents, federal agencies, they're especially influential during times of uncertainty.
When there's a novel threat and people don't understand what's going on and they need an explanation that's reliable, the President and the White House have outsized influence.
So here Trump is saying, like, on the one hand, the CDC is saying this, but I'm not going to do it and maybe you shouldn't either.
Well, it turns out pretty quickly, it's a stronger message internal to group.
So if you were in the Trump circle, the message you got was a mask is a symbol of weakness, fear.
It's feminine.
It's cowardly.
And everyone in Trump's orbit knew that he didn't want to see people in masks.
And this reaches a kind of absurd, embarrassing moment when a few days later, Mike Pence, I don't know if anyone here remembers Mike Pence, but there's a guy named Mike Pence, Vice President, and I should note, Chair of the White House Task Force on COVID, which is also an exceptional thing.
Like most countries, they had medical experts and health authorities running those task forces.
We had Mike Pence.
And so Pence goes to the Mayo Clinic.
And for those of you who don't know the Mayo Clinic, the Mayo Clinic is like the crisis medical center where you go to get coordinated care by many of the best specialists in the world.
You have a condition.
So complicated that your ordinary doctors can't figure it out.
So really sick people who are vulnerable go there to get the best possible care and they're exceedingly vulnerable.
It's an amazing institution.
And when Mike Pence goes to visit the Mayo Clinic in the midst of of this COVID crisis, he's like the only person in the zip code who's not wearing a mask.
He refuses to wear a mask on television, in the interviews.
He's with doctors, nurses, patients, and this guy's not wearing a mask.
So now there's a symbol to everybody that's even stronger because it's on television, and that is if you bare your face, you are showing your allegiance to this political figure.
And it becomes clear that whether or not you wear a mask has a political valence.
The bare face means something, right?
Now, let's not end the conversation there, because at the same time what happens, and I think this is really important for those of us who are on Team Blue note, and that is, while Team Red wants to bare their face, what happens is that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris and all the senators, all the local representatives, they change their Facebook photographs so they're wearing a mask.
They changed their hashtag so it's like Eric hashtag wears a mask Kleinberg.
They put political ads out with wearing masks.
The mask basically comes to symbolize Solidarity and mutual obligation and I believe in science and I'm pro-public health.
And then it symbolizes something more, which is like, I'm on team blue.
And that's when you start walking down the street in Oakland or San Jose or Williamsburg New York and you see people wearing a mask and you have this kind of like yeah high five like you're we're on the same team kind of sentiment and you did have that as like a little nod and it's also when if you see somebody in your Starbucks or in Trader Joe's and they're not wearing a mask You're like, what, who are you?
You're a monster.
You're, don't you understand?
You're going to kill me.
You're going to kill everybody.
And look, I was, I was, I am very pro mask.
And I'm like, why wouldn't you wear a mask?
A mask is a smart thing to wear for yourself and for other people.
But I guess even I can look back on this.
Like I remember seeing people outside jogging, whatever.
Like, oh, maybe, maybe my outrage about the mask thing was not just about The health situation, it was about the fact that the mask had become a totem.
The mask had become ideological symbol of a whole set of beliefs.
And what I think is especially powerful is it started with masks, and then it was like medication, right?
It's like if you were on Team Blue, you liked Remzedivir.
If you were on Team Red, you liked hydrochloric.
Yeah.
Ivermectin.
Ivermectin.
Yeah.
And then it was, so right, and then it was the vaccine.
If you're on Team Blue, the vaccine was, if you're on Team Red, the vaccine wasn't.
And that's, we could get into that later, because that's got a whole thing about Trump and Operation Warp Speed and his refusal to endorse the thing, because Biden was the president by the time the vaccine was authorized.
And then it was like the election.
If you're on Team Blue, it was real.
If you're on Team Red, it was stolen.
And I think what we've developed, all of these symbols, That we now associate with the team that we're on and that's just not good for a democratic society.
And I think it's led us to get really entrenched in our positions.
One thing I will say that I don't think we can cover here, but people really should read in the book is It didn't have to be this way.
We didn't have to have a country that divided into two teams.
In fact, places like Australia, places around the world did not have this division into a bifurcated social square in the degree that we did.
I want to come to one character in the book.
The characters in this book are inspiring.
They are revealing.
It's a really magnificent look at these various lives that are spread around New York City.
Nuwala Oderte is in Queens.
She is a social connector.
She's connective tissue in her neighborhood.
And reading about her, I felt so conflicted, Eric, because she works tirelessly throughout the pandemic.
I mean, I'm reading about her and I'm thinking, how does this woman do this?
She's the hub.
Her cell phone is the hub for, like, tens of thousands of people who need food, they need resources, they need help, they need medical aid, they need someone to hold their hand, they need someone to bring them toilet paper.
And in some sense, she works miracles.
Her and her colleagues get a section of their neighborhood so that it's pedestrian only.
They create a public space for people.
I mean, I cried at times reading about her because she is such an amazing human being.
And when I got done with the chapter, I thought, What an amazing person and yet would we need figures like her if the institutions that we've been discussing today actually worked?
Because asking one woman to be a social hub for tens of thousands of people is in one sense amazing and in another sense it's like we shouldn't need that.
Is that a fair reading?
We're obviously getting to the heart of the whole issue about mutual aid networks and what their role is in a society that has a welfare state.
And I guess the question is, like, how should the kind of agile, on-the-ground community organizations be connected to the state and its resources?
And that's great.
It's a big question that people have been debating for a long time.
I will say just at the outset, Nuala is an extraordinary woman and what she did to start this COVID care neighborhood network, mutual aid network in Jackson Heights, Queens, with the ties to Corona as well.
It's just, it is amazing.
And I hope you people can read her story because she just deserves attention.
We need to, she kind of represents the best of America in a way, but even she would, she would be embarrassed by the idea that it was her at the center of everything she started.
But honestly, like she was just, She was a part of a massive neighborhood organization and what's important about the Jackson Heights story is that turned this New York City neighborhood of strangers, which is kind of how New York City neighborhoods are, into a neighborhood of
You said colleagues, but like of neighbors, like the people who really got to know each other personally and work together on a daily basis to help each other out and to improve the neighborhood in ways that last to this day.
Like it's worth noting that the COVID Care Neighborhood Network, which started a COVID mutual aid network, has basically transformed into the Jackson Heights Immigration Center, and they now are helping thousands of Migrant families get settled in New York City, file asylum paperwork, like find jobs, do all these things, housing, medical care, it's getting kids to school.
It's like completely amazing and a thing that gives me a lot of hope because it's part of this civic infrastructure that we don't always recognize and appreciate in the country, especially when we get on our rants about how everything's falling apart.
But it is a great question.
Why do we need these organizations in the first place?
And wouldn't a well-functioning welfare state just have ways of providing services so like that you're going to get an income in many countries pretty quickly during the pandemic because the government steps in or there's going to be healthcare available to you because you have a public healthcare system and everyone has has access to a quality provider or there's going to be food available because there's a public
So, the reality of America is we don't have a welfare state that works that way.
It is stingy.
It is cheap in many ways compared to what our comparable people and comparable nations get.
It's hierarchical.
It stigmatizes.
It can be slow.
And I think where I've come around on this is to realize that these Mutual aid networks are really necessary.
Community organizations are important and there are two big problems.
The first is there's an inequality problem because historically a lot of the poorest people and poorest communities have been Kind of so overwhelmed by daily problems that it's been more difficult to organize at the community level to plug into those networks.
It wasn't always the case in COVID.
There were, like, Jackson Heights is not a wealthy community, but they happen to have people who could do it.
But you kind of want to make sure that you have enough universal coverage that's not dependent on whether people have time and influence.
And then I guess the other issue is, like, how plugged in are you to the state government and the city government where the resources are?
And I think that there's an enduring role for community organizations and mutual aid networks in American life, especially if state and city governments could really learn to recognize them as legitimate actors.
And during crises that start very quickly and demand sudden response, whether it's a heat wave or a hurricane or a pandemic, we need to find a way for state organizations to recognize these local, very local institutions and funnel resources through them so that they're not dependent on philanthropy.
Is this the difference between a loneliness pandemic, which you seem to argue that there is not as much as there's a It is, yeah.
It's been a concern of mine for a long time that America is suffering from these really deep structural inequalities and that there's a big part of the population that has been kind of structurally isolated, abandoned by core institutions that need to be providing them with support.
And they're different communities.
Some are big red state bloc voting groups now because they feel abandoned by government and some are traditional progressive voting bloc that feel abandoned by government or targeted by government.
But I think this is like a big Commonality in American political culture at the moment.
People feel really abandoned and let down and distrustful of core government institutions on both sides of the political divide.
And I'm struck in this moment by the extent to which the language of crisis that we've mobilized is about loneliness.
It's not that I don't feel like people are lonely and that there's a lot of reasons that people get lonely and loneliness is a real issue.
It's a health problem.
It sucks.
It makes you vulnerable to ideology, to authoritarianism, scapegoating.
There's all kinds of dysfunction that loneliness generates.
When I read the data, I don't actually see this idea that, I don't see evidence that people are lonelier than they've ever been before.
I see a lot of fluctuation and it feels to me often like if the political problem and the urgent crisis in America is framed as loneliness, the cures are like, answer your telephone, don't bring your screen, talk to your friends, don't put your screen at the dinner table, like have the kid do Facebook less or they don't do Snapchat, TikTok less.
And those are like not, that's all fine.
I have no problem with that.
But like, if you think that stuff is going to cure the problem with America, then you and I are like watching different movies.
And so like, I insist that what we saw in COVID was this exaggeration of this thing that we're experiencing all the time.
And that is, I call it structural isolation.
Or like social abandonment.
Those for me are the core structural materialist problems that are really generating crisis for Americans.
And I'm fine having a conversation about loneliness, but I'm somewhat worried that our session with this is crowding out.
It's more materialist, kind of structural analysis of a situation.
And it lets those institutions and those governmental systems and those government leaders off the hook, because it says, well, the cure here is pick up your phone, take your neighbor a casserole, no screens at the dinner table, and let's get back to the Fourth of July parade, and we'll all feel better.
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What's the best way to keep up with you and your work as you talk about this book and have new projects on the horizon?
Well, once upon a time, I would have said I'm pretty active on Twitter, but I'm still out there, but like hanging by a thread these days.
No, I really, I just get, go to your library and see if they have a copy of 2020.
Thanks for listening today, y'all.
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