Weekly Roundup: Christian Nationalists "Rescue" the Jewish People + Trump's Time Interview
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Brad and Dan begin by discussing the responses to campus protests across the nation, and then zoom into the actions and words of Sean Feucht and Eric Metaxas - two Christian nationalist influencers who led pro-Israel rallies in NYC and LA this week. Brad explains how and why Christian nationalists like them fetishize Israel for what it does for them, not for actual care or solidarity with Jewish People.
In the second segment, Dan breaks down Trump's Time interview - a detailed foreshadowing of what will come in his potential next term: using the National Guard on American citizens, taking any civil rights from immigrants, letting states ban abortion, putting all employees on Schedule F, oh, and not accepting election results if he loses.
In the final segment the hosts discuss the United Methodist Church's new policies on marriage, which are a step forward for gay couples within the nationa's second largest Protestant denomination.
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If you've been waiting, been on the fence, if you've been not sure, now is the time to do it.
And as you know, we're seeing this rise in this flood of anti-semitism across the world.
Yes, these are the end days.
I know people say all the time, everyone's saying it's the end days.
Jesus said it was the end days 2000 years ago.
Well, it is the end days and we're one day closer to the return of Jesus.
Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
My name is Brad Onishi, faculty at the University of San Francisco, joined today by my co-host.
Dan Miller, professor of religion and social thought at Landmark College, and I was teasing you, Brad, before we got on that you actually have boba as we record today, and you were mocking me because I am, in fact, wearing a banned t-shirt.
See?
Now you're lying.
Wow.
I didn't.
Nobody else saw it.
Who's going to prove it?
Who's going to prove it's a lie?
There it is.
You were mocking me inside.
I should have started recording because now you're a liar.
Are there any secret recordings that you can reveal later in, say, a criminal proceeding or something and be like, oh, it turns out.
When I need those recordings, they will appear.
Believe me.
All right, friends.
It's a big week.
Last week was a big week.
Dan, I think every week is a big week, but I do think that we're living through weeks that are so full and at times dizzying and confusing and most of all are at times disheartening that it can be hard to make sense of them.
This feels like a week where we could talk about so many different things.
We could talk about John MacArthur and some comments he made.
We could talk about some things...
I mean, there are probably 12 stories to talk about today.
We're going to talk about three.
We're going to talk about the student protests, and we're going to focus on the ways that Christian nationalists are appropriating them for their own narrative and for their own gain.
So we'll dig into some things from Sean Foyt and Eric Metaxas and others who were kind of themselves into this whole set of events.
We'll then get to Trump's interview from time, which is somewhat of a bombshell if we lived in normal times, but because we don't, it's a thing that some of you noticed, a bunch of you emailed me and were like, hey, can you guys talk about that?
But in this universe is simply something some folks saw, some didn't.
We'll finish with a story that is in many ways good news and one that I've seen on my timeline a lot this week which is the United Methodist Church and a decision about affirming LGBTQ people and allowing churches to do that.
So we'll get to those things in turn and they will of course encompass a whole bunch of stories and figures and other things.
So, here we go.
This week, Dan, it's been hard to ignore.
There have been protests at hundreds of universities across the country.
These, of course, have been going on for some time now.
I think this was the week that these protests really kind of hit a crescendo in terms of Administrators calling in police.
We saw that with Columbia before.
We saw that in large force this week at places like UCLA.
We'd already seen it at UT Austin.
But we could go up and down the country from Humboldt, California, to Emory University, which we mentioned last week, and everywhere in between.
Florida, New York State, The whole country seems to be part of this now.
This is the week that we saw some pretty heavy violence.
UCLA in particular had some rogue agents, people who are not law enforcement, attack the encampment and then a few days later the police themselves did that.
We've seen people arrested, we've seen professors pushed to the ground, we have seen all kinds of things.
I know that many of you have digested news about that already, and in these cases, I'm always asking myself, how can we help?
You know, Dan and I are scholars.
We also have lived these things as evangelical ministers.
What is the thing we can offer?
So, I want to offer some general comments, Dan, about the ways that antisemitism, I think, is being used.
As a way to build a narrative and divide certain groups amongst each other.
And then I want to do a deep dive into Sean Foyd and Eric Metaxas and the way they explained Why they felt the need to organize events at Columbia and UCLA this week because they needed to step up not only against anti-semitism, but against the demons and what they call the jihadis who are warring against God's light.
They put it in very cosmic terms.
So, I think that's something we can offer.
Before we go there, let me offer just a few thoughts, Dan, and I'll throw it to you for what you think here in one sec.
So, I think one of the things that is on my mind as we just continue to live through these events is I did an episode recently on Arthur Finkelstein.
I put that out a couple days ago.
Arthur Finkelstein was this grandmaster of election and right-wing electioneering.
He would get people elected that you never thought could get elected.
And if you listen to the episode, I really was tip of the iceberg.
He was part of Richard Nixon's campaigns, part of Ronald Reagan's campaigns.
He got more people elected to the Senate than anyone in U.S.
history, according to some people.
He's the one that got Netanyahu in power to start.
He got Orban back in power in 2010.
Who are his acolytes, Dan?
Paul Manafort.
Who's one of his best friends?
Roger Stone.
Okay?
Arthur Finkelstein had an approach to electioneering that said there has to be an enemy.
And you often find an enemy out of upheaval and trauma.
So in the case of Orban, he was able to find an enemy through the Arab Spring.
He was able to basically demonize Muslims and refugees after the Arab Spring.
So here we are all, Dan, I don't know if you remember the Arab Spring.
We're watching, people are following, it's a hopeful moment.
I was actually in Egypt the day people voted for the first time in many years.
Complicated history with the Arab Spring, but I think most of us saw that as like a time of hope.
Arthur Finkelstein saw that as a time of nihilistic opportunity.
That is how I would characterize what's happening among a lot of Christian nationalists and others on the American right when it comes to the events in the country right now.
Dan, I know that there are people protesting at Columbia and other places who are being anti-Semitic.
There are folks who are echoing sentiments that are equivalent to the hatred of Jewish people.
That is true.
Okay?
There are also many, many, many, many people who are protesting across the country because they recognize that there is a tragic acts of violence taking place in Gaza every day.
And one of the things that I think the American right knows, and especially the people we're going to talk about in a second, is that our news cycle, our political public square, our ability as a nation to have a complex conversation about things is pretty low.
So Dan, as you and I have talked about on this show for a long time, we agree with those that would say there is a difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism.
That you can criticize the Israeli government, you can criticize Benjamin Netanyahu's government, you can criticize Israel as a nation state, as an apparatus of governing as a nation within the world, without expressing
That is possible and it's necessary because Israel as a nation, just like every nation, every government, every state, should be criticized.
That is how you hold it accountable.
That's the very basis of democracy.
There are hundreds of thousands of people in Israel right now marching.
Against Netanyahu.
Okay.
Are they anti-Semitic?
I don't think they are.
I think what they're saying is our government is wrong in this instance when it comes to what they're doing.
Okay.
Now that's really hard and this is what many people are capitalizing on because the overwhelming presence of anti-Semitism in this world Along with the traumatic experience of October 7th and just the violence, the people who are continuing to be hostages, it is so sensitive, right?
And overwhelming to anyone who is involved, namely the Jewish community, but others.
That it's really hard to have that complex, nuanced approach to these things that recognizes anti-Semitism is a constant.
Anti-Semitism is on the rise in our country.
I'll give you an example.
Greg Abbott in Texas tried to be the Christian nationalist, capitalizing on all this.
He made this month Jewish Month or Jewish Heritage Month or something in Texas, and the comments You do not want to go read those comments because they're the most disgusting, vile things people have ever said.
The most anti-Semitic things, right?
Anti-Semitism is real, it is present, it has always been present, and it is not okay.
Because of that, it's so hard to talk about Gaza and Palestine and that whole war Without people thinking you need to take one side or another.
Well, are you with the Jews?
Are you with the Palestinians?
What is it?
Are you anti-Semitic?
Are you Islamophobic?
Right?
It's always a reduction to the binary, okay?
And because of that, All those people in the American right that learned from Arthur Finkelstein are like, now's the moment.
If you choose Israel and you call everything that every protester on every college campus is doing as anti-Semitic, as hatred of Jewish people, as uniformly, as unilaterally bad, You're going to gain points.
America's with Israel.
America defends the anti-Semitism.
This is disgusting.
America's against the jihadis.
America's against the Muslims.
America's against Hamas.
And you can just construct the terms and you can run with it.
OK?
And that's what I see happening on the American right.
And if you don't believe me, I'm going to play you the clips here in a second.
I have some other thoughts, but you've talked about this before.
I think you'll just you're going to say things.
I think I already know what you're going to say, but what's on your mind?
Everything you just said was really, really well said about the complexities of it.
Just a couple things about the complexities.
You have these mass movements.
There's no sort of top-down architecture to it, so you do have these really mixed groups.
I've been reading more this week.
Maybe it was CNN, I think.
Maybe it was Politico.
I don't remember which.
But they actually reached out to student journalists, right?
Journalists at some of these different campuses around the country and getting their perspectives on this.
That kind of stuff was really interesting stuff about the statistics of like, you know, some of the people that are arrested, people that are actually students on campus, people that are activists from other places, people that are, you know, whatever.
So again, just really, really messy.
But I think one thing that stands out or that I'm really thinking about is there have been different university responses to these with really different outcomes.
One thing that I think is typically true is anytime there are protests that are non-violent, and lots of these protests have been non-violent, it's basically about essentially sort of trespassing or denying access to buildings or things like this.
It's not active violence, it's not active vandalism, it's sit-ins, it's encampments and so forth.
When you have non-violent protests and you call in the police, it escalates.
It always escalates.
And that's what we've seen.
People being thrown down or there were stories of people like observers on sidewalks are not part of the campus, right?
That are like kind of observing this and they're getting thrown down and arrested and things like this.
And injuries like broken teeth and we've seen images of firing rubber bullets, they think.
uh tear gas all all that kind of stuff right the number one is the escalation which always always always always gets blamed on the people who the police responded to that's that's how that works it works Across the political spectrum of whatever that protest is, if the police come in, it works.
No matter where it works, that's the escalation that you get, and it's going to be blamed on the people on the sort of the receiving end of that.
And I think the other one is, just to tie in with what your Talking about another word that becomes difficult to understand or to tease out, and this is why I really valued the insights of these different student journalists, because they were describing really different patterns at different places, is the language of violence or threat and kind of what that means, what that constitutes.
Are we talking about physical violence?
Are we talking about, I can't get to the library and it's finals week and that's threatening to me?
I mean, that's a real thing, but those are, I would say, two different levels of threat.
Universities that have responded more proactively by, like, circulating stuff to say, here are all the things you're allowed to do and here are all the things you can't.
And here's what's going to happen if you don't, and there have been places where, you know, they've sort of bypassed some of the more confrontational approaches that have developed at places that are in the news.
I think the last piece of this, just as a general observation, I've seen a lot of analyses that point out that in terms of just raw numbers and scope, as everybody makes the parallels to one of the times of the most significant civil unrest, certainly on college campuses since the 60s, is that the scope and scale doesn't match that.
But we have 24-hour news media now.
We have social media, and everybody has a newsreel in their pocket that they can pull out and record.
And so, no matter how big or small or violent or non-violent it is, certain images are going to be played everywhere, certain accounts, and that's going to create this normative vision.
And that can be deployed in lots of ways, including by the people that you're about to sort of walk us through, who want to say, look how terrible this is, all these people are super violent, and so on and so forth, and it legitimates the narrative that's already there.
I keep saying I've got one more point, but I guess my last point, and then I'll throw it over to you to walk us through this, but I think it's going to segue into a lot of these, is you look at the history of anti-Semitism in the U.S.
It's on the political right.
It's not on the political left.
Does that mean if liberals or progressives or Marxists or somebody are never anti-Semitic, of course they can be, right?
But it's typically on the right.
And so what this does is it allows those who have historically been the bastions of anti-Semitism, and I would argue still are.
The clips you're going to play, I think, are still anti-Semitic in their own right.
This gives them the ability to position themselves as on the sort of the positive moral side.
Oh, how dare you liberals and progressives and Gen Zers and whatever else who think, you know, you want to talk about how bad Republicans are and the GOP and MAGA, but if look at you, you're a bunch of anti-Semites.
It allows them to claim the high ground on an issue that they've basically traditionally occupied.
So I think that that's another piece of the rhetoric that we're going to, that we have seen and that you're going to highlight here in just a second.
One last comment before we go to the clips and dig into some stuff here.
I heard Chris Hayes say this this week and I heard Eddie Glaude say it in a different way.
I think they both had some points and I want to highlight them here.
I think, you know, I know the statistics of the show.
A lot of you listening are in your 30s, 40s, or 50s.
Uh some of you in your 20s but for the most part you're you're you're 30s 40s or 50s you're a little younger than me you're my age or you're you're a little older than me and we're at an age where uh there's an uncomfortable truth and and I just I want to express it as Delicately as I can, but I do think it does pertain here.
It's hard to wade through the protest.
Like I said, I have no doubt that if we want, we can go find people who are protesting, saying things that are anti-semitic and just not okay.
Burn Tel Aviv to the ground.
Things like that.
Nope.
Unacceptable, right?
Not gonna defend it, not gonna, whatever.
Chris Hayes, Eddie Glaude, some others said it this way though this week, and I just want to reiterate it.
You know, it's easy to focus on the college campuses across the country and do what a lot of people are doing on the right or the left.
Say, these are brats.
They're entitled.
They're spoiled.
I hate to tell you, friends, that's what people said in the 60s.
It's what people said about the student organizing committees during the Civil Rights Movement.
It's not a good look and it's not helpful.
If we want young people to be the change and to be the ones that will create a different world, that line isn't going to help.
The other thing though is that every university that we look at here and criticize and we spend our bandwidth on, and some of them deserve it, don't get me wrong, means we're not focused on the fact that every university in Gaza is no longer there.
There's no more.
They've all been destroyed.
So you can.
I mean, if you if you want to take the like, these are Bratz line, you can.
I think it's it's I think it's a way out of saying I'd rather focus on these kids and what they're doing is disorderly, like the president did, if I'm honest, rather than saying.
That every university in Gaza is no longer existent.
That about every 10 minutes, a child in Palestine dies in this war, about 14,000.
And we could, you know, I don't know, I have to look up the exact numbers right today, right this moment.
That's really, really, really hard to look at.
Sometimes the things we look at and criticize are the things we can stomach about ourselves.
And I think a lot of us are good at stomaching, like, a bunch of 21-year-olds.
Yeah, well, look at these kids.
They're prowl-downs.
They have pink hair.
Look at them in the tents.
And that's get-off-my-lawn stuff, rather than saying, hey, is there a way that I should develop a really nuanced and complex approach to the persistence of anti-Semitism in this world, the tragedy and disgustingness of October 7th, and the overwhelming humanitarian crisis in Palestine?
And I think that's just something I want to say for today because I think it's important.
Let's take a break.
We'll be right back and talk about some of these Christian nationalists I just mentioned.
All right, y'all.
Dan was making fun of me because I, for reasons related to work, and not because I'm just a weird person, Dan, who does this for fun.
I'm not.
I was watching Flashpoint, which is, it is like, what did you call it earlier, Dan?
Like Fox News on Christian nationalist steroids, right?
Yeah.
And it's basically an outlet for some of the most main players in the New Apostolic Reformation.
If you turn into Flashpoint TV, You're going to see Lance Wallnau, Dutch Sheets, you'll see Che Ahn, you'll see Sean Foyt.
And that's what I want to talk about now and their reactions to what we're talking about this week in terms of the college campuses.
So, I'm going to play a clip here from that program and it starts with Pastor Kelly bringing in Sean Foyt and you'll hear the rest.
So, here we go.
Let me show you this.
Wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, global shaking, and the rise of anti-Semitism and Jew hatred across the world.
Are these the end times?
Shawn Foyt here with us now.
So talk to us about what happened.
You were there, and in the eye of the storm, Shawn Foyt walks through with his guitar.
Talk to us about what happened.
Yeah, I mean, I think I was horrified just like the rest of America as we're seeing this anti-Semitic and Jew hatred being spewed out at a university campus in New York City and then really that like demonic thing started to catch root across other campuses in America.
I just said, man, We gotta rally people.
We need to mobilize.
We need to show a different narrative.
You know, we can't just hide behind Twitter and Facebook and social media and whine about it.
Like, we gotta rise up.
This is a season of activation.
And so that's what we did.
And we, by God's grace, were able to rally the largest, this is what Jewish leaders are telling me, the largest pro-Israel rally in the history of New York City.
And they shut the streets down.
NYPD had to come out in full force with several busloads of policemen, which were very amazing, by the way.
And we saw, I think the estimates are 4,000 to 5,000 people show up.
And it was a sight to behold as we overwhelmed the noise of the protesters shouting, kill Israel, kill the Jews, with our God reign.
And he's the one in control.
And it was a sound of unity, hope, prayer.
It was just really beautiful.
So, Sean Foyt, Dan, went this week and organized a big protest, rally, whatever you want to call it, in New York City, in and around Columbia.
And he starts talking here about how anti-Semitic sentiment, Jew hatred he calls it, being spewed out at a university campus.
And again, I have no doubt, and I've seen the reports, and I've read, and I've heard, and I've done all that.
There are certain protesters, yes, that are probably doing that, yes.
But then he says this, Dan, and then that really demonic thing started to catch root.
Across other campuses in America.
So this is Sean Foyt rhetorically saying, I'm with the Jews and I'm protecting them and everyone who's not is demonic.
And what is he doing Dan?
He's doing the thing that Christian nationalists always do.
No matter what happens, it's one or the other.
Good or evil.
God or Satan.
And then he says, we need to mobilize.
And this is that spiritual warfare, we've got to go do it mindset.
We need to show a different narrative.
And so then he says, supposedly it's the largest rally in the history of New York City for Jewish people.
That's really hard to believe.
He sounds like Donald Trump here.
Okay.
But nonetheless, in this first clip, what I want you to notice is just, Reduce it to a binary, show who the good guys are, and put everyone else on the side of the demon.
Okay?
Thoughts on this clip, Dan, before we go to another?
One is that obviously the spiritual warfare piece stands out, that it's always I mean, I talked about escalating violence a minute ago, right?
You can escalate any conflict if you elevate it to the level of spiritual warfare.
It's not, we disagree with them.
It's not even just that it's anti-Semitic, it's demonic, right?
It's a satanic power that needs to be confronted.
These are not, I don't know, somebody could say, oh, these are passionate college students, but, you know, To the people you're talking about, they're misguided, or they don't understand this, or you get some people who might say, I agree with the politics, but I don't agree with the way that they're expressing it.
Or, as in my cohort now, I have lots of parents with kids at college, they're like, I really hope this doesn't screw up their entire, like, professional life, because they have arrest records and things like...
No, it's not stuff like that.
That's all this worldly, that's complex, that's everything that, as you're saying, we can't talk about.
Nope, it's spiritual warfare and we're fighting demons by sending the police in to break up pro-Palestine rallies and so forth.
Has nothing to do with people seeing it on social media or duplicating actions in different places or the fact that this has been going on for months or anything else.
Last point is the hyperbole of Again, we don't know the numbers.
None of us are the largest pro-Jewish.
New York City has one of the largest Jewish populations on the planet, and so I find it hard to believe that, like, this is in any way going to somehow top the largest pro-Jewish rally or something in American history.
But again, it's this attitude of the Christian who's like, well, I am the best friend of the Jew, and I'm actually no better than the Jew does because I love Jesus, and I'm going to show up in New York City, and this is the largest All right.
Let's go to Eric Metaxas, who joined him in this little brigade.
Here we go.
Okay.
Couldn't help but notice a face in the crowd carrying an inflammatory picture of Bonhoeffer.
as big as one of Sean Foyt walking through the streets with a guitar.
Okay, great.
Yeah, sure.
All right, let's go to Eric Metaxas, who joined him in this little brigade.
Here we go.
Okay, well, I couldn't help but notice a face in the crowd carrying an inflammatory picture of Bonhoeffer.
Eric Metaxas, talk about that experience.
Well, I can just end up there.
Sean is a friend, and he told me, you know, he wanted to do something.
And I thought, are you kidding?
I'm in.
And I reached out to everyone I could, and I said, I'm gonna be there.
And obviously, Sean has a gigantic reach, and so we rallied to be there.
And it's funny, because I've been spending a lot of time up in Connecticut with my mom.
Jesus was a Jew.
Bonhoeffer understood that when the Jews are being attacked, it's an attack on God, it's an attack on God's people, and we need to stand for them.
Every single Christian needs to stand up for the Jews being persecuted in our nation.
And look, we have to be clear, there's always a demonic spirit behind Jew hate.
This is not just some random thing.
It's a demonic thing.
What we're seeing right now is a demonic, radical, Islamic, jihadi You know, movement.
This is not about, oh, you know, we care about the people in Palestine.
No, this is something that is, it's very, very dark.
You know, I said, I think I said that night when I spoke to the Bullhorn, you know, if you have a cause, you don't behave the way Hamas behaves and the way these pro-Hamas agitators are behaving.
They're not behaving with dignity like Martin Luther King Jr.
They're behaving like monsters.
They're doing everything in case you didn't even know anything about it and you looked at the way they're behaving, you'd say, they don't seem like good people to me.
So, Eric Metaxas is, of course, this faux Bonhoeffer scholar.
The book he wrote on Bonhoeffer was a big hit among very conservative Christians.
It has been debunked by Bonhoeffer expert after Bonhoeffer expert after Bonhoeffer expert.
It is, yeah, not credible.
He shows up in these opportune times that kind of make a name for himself in ways that are not unlike Sean Foyt.
But Dan, let's just look at what he said.
I want to go to one particular part of this.
This is not about care for the people in Palestine.
No, it's something else.
It's dark.
It's very dark.
It's radical Islamic.
It's jihadi.
It's demonic.
Once again, let's just slow down and notice what the rhetoric does.
It says, it totally discredits the idea that any of these protests are about actual care for anyone in Gaza and Palestine at large.
And it says, nope, that's not it.
Okay, so you're telling me no one protesting across the country?
Whether at Emory, whether at UCLA, whether at USC, whether at City College, Southern Florida, it doesn't matter.
It's not about that?
Nope, it's not.
Okay, what's it about?
It's very dark.
It's very dark.
It's Islamic.
It's jihadi.
It's demonic.
So he just did so many things at once.
He discredited all the care for anyone, said that all of these protests are actually about something else, which is demonic in spirit.
And just so happens that anything Islamic is demonic in spirit.
Right?
It's incredible what you can do in a paragraph, but that is the gift of people like Freud and Metaxas.
Off to you, Dan.
A couple other things, just again, same themes that you're talking about, but other elements that appear here and would appear other places.
One is this, I love how he informs us that Jesus was a Jew.
Okay, thanks.
But this notion that to attack the Jewish people is to attack God and so forth.
You just said he's not exactly a good historian, tries to write his Bonhoeffer book and whatever.
The history of Christian antisemitism completely belies that, right?
The notion that Christians have spent two millennia accusing Jewish people of being quote-unquote Christ killers and using that as their basis for antisemitism.
So this notion that Christians have always recognized or have this inherent understanding that if you attack Jewish people, you're attacking God, is false.
It's also nonsense if you think about the fact that, like, Jesus and the early Jesus movements were one part of this incredibly diverse movement of popular movements within Second Temple Judaism.
Guess what?
Everybody involved in all those movements was Jewish.
Like, it doesn't really tell you much.
It was a Palestinian-Jewish phenomenon among Palestinian-Jewish phenomena all happening within this, like, part of the Roman Empire, etc., etc., etc.
So, like, that notion is just silly.
And to try to, again, I think what stands out to me all the time is this reversal of, like, Trying to flip the script on like a long historical narrative that the people who have been most anti-semitic, Christians, are suddenly the defenders of Jewish people everywhere.
I think there's also, I think in there he also makes the statement in, this is classic kind of white Christian guy thing, to contrast it with Martin Luther King Jr.
Like that comes out, this isn't like MLK, these are monsters, I think he says.
We've talked about this.
Others have talked about this.
People know the history.
The whitewashing of the MLK legacy as if Christian white people were all just jumping right on board with MLK and affirming everything that he said and so forth.
Again, just the reappropriation and the revisionist history to try to sort of present this as a moral high ground stands out to me.
We're going to run out of time.
I got a bunch of clips here.
I'm going to skip down to one from Sean Foyt that's actually from a different program.
It's from a different venue, but I think it reveals everything that's at play here.
So I'm going to play a clip with Sean Foyt talking about the rise of evil and the end of the world.
Here we go.
And as you know, we're seeing this rise in this flood of anti-Semitism across the world.
Yes, these are the end days.
I know people say all the time, everyone's saying it's the end days.
Jesus said it was the end days 2,000 years ago.
Well, it is the end days, and we're one day closer to the return of Jesus.
And as that ramps up, we're going to see a rise of evil, we're going to see a rise of glory, and we're going to see a rise of hatred for the Jewish people.
And I think right now in America, I would have never imagined we would be at a place Where university students in state-funded schools would be marching across their campuses shouting, death to Israel, death to America, burn Tel Aviv to the ground.
I mean, it is unbelievable what we're seeing.
Scenes like this that haven't really been broadcasted since the 1930s.
History seems to be replaying itself.
And so in light of that, as many of you know, we are gathering tomorrow night on the campus of Columbia University for a United for Israel march.
Okay, so he begins by saying, hey, we always talk about the end of the day, end of days, we always talk about the apocalypse, but it's here.
We're one day closer to the return of Jesus.
And how do we know that, Dan?
Well, because of anti-Semitism.
Because people are protesting on these campuses and, as he says, shouting, death to Israel, death to America.
Now, that may have happened.
I will bet that most protesters at most campuses are not shouting those things.
I'm sure some have.
But it's easy to just cherry pick that and say that's the entire movement, that's the entire protest sentiment and so on.
Especially, by the way, if somebody just takes down an American flag and somebody, oh look, symbolically they're saying death to America, whatever, like attributing all kinds of meaning and intention to what is obviously a symbolic act.
The symbolic acts lend themselves to multiple appropriations and interpretations.
So every time we see somebody who takes down an American flag, you have this proliferation of, oh, this is anti-American.
They want America to die.
They're like the Iranians.
On and on and on.
This clip, to me, shows us he's excited because he thinks that all of this anti-Semitism and or campus protests It means Jesus is closer to coming back?
We've said this before.
That's a long-standing view in conservative Christian circles.
There's a fetishization of Israel without a true love for Jewish people, and the fetishization stems from the belief that when Israel plays a certain role in history, we will be at the final chapter.
It's the final battle, the final boss.
In the video game, we're almost to the end.
You've played how many nights until 3 a.m., Dan Miller?
Now you're waiting.
You got the final boss?
That's what he's saying.
He's saying, I'm so excited for this.
Why?
Because I can help my Jewish brothers and sisters?
Because my Jewish brothers and sisters, my Jewish siblings are under attack?
Because I can somehow be a peacemaker?
Nope.
Jesus is coming back.
And then he says, and I'll be really brief and then I'll throw it to you is, we haven't seen this since the 1930s.
Do you remember 2017?
Do you remember Charlottesville?
Do you remember the fact that people were marching saying Jews will not replace us and the president you love so much said there's fine people on both sides?
I don't know.
I don't know, because I remember that.
I'm old enough.
So, off to you, Dan, and then we'll move on from these two and go to something else.
One, just in my life, I seriously wish I had $10 for every time somebody has told me we are in the end times, or every time I sat through a sermon hearing that.
I grew up hearing that and wars and rumors of wars and like whoever produced the Book of Revelation, or it's not Revelation, it's Matthew I think, The Little Apocalypse, whatever.
Whoever put that in, you should be like, it's either a gold star or like a lump of coal for coming up with a line that is so open.
When are there not wars and rumors of wars and you know and so forth.
So there's that piece but I mentioned earlier that this affirmation what you're calling I think the appropriately the fetishizing of a conception of Israel is itself anti-semitic.
Why?
Because the same theology that they're drawing on says that there will be a remnant of Jewish people that will recognize that Jesus is the Messiah and so they'll be saved and what's going to happen to everybody else They're going to be cast into hell for all eternity.
That's the vision.
So it's not somehow pro-Jewish or even pro-Israel.
If you dig into it and you could talk to these people, they would know that.
It's that these have to be the Jewish people who recognize that their tradition has been wrong for 2,000 years.
And they have to repent and become Christians, and most of them won't, and the ones who won't will be punished as enemies of God.
And so I mean, that's the vision of what Judaism is within this.
And so again, and I remember we talked about this, I think you talked about this really well, one of our very first episodes, like first season stuff.
So if you haven't subscribed, now's your chance to subscribe and go back and listen to the first season.
But in all seriousness, it's this long-standing trope.
So when people hear this, And maybe you've heard people like us say that conservative Christianity has this kind of eschatological, apocalyptic theology that is anti-Jewish or that is anti-Semitic.
And you're like, wait a minute, these are the same people like I've heard Brad and Dan and others talk about apocalypticism and eschatology and these other weird end times words.
And these guys are saying that they're pro-Israel because of this.
That's why.
And that's why I call it a very sort of idealized, or as you say, fetishized, fantasy of what Israel is and what quote-unquote Judaism is as they understand it.
And it's super problematic, and again, they're trying to flip the script, take the moral high ground, and so on.
And what Israel does for them.
The seductiveness of the end times is you're... Somebody tells you, hey, you have what you think is a not extraordinarily epic life.
You're not on TV being a superhero.
You're not traveling the world doing Instagram influencing.
I don't know what people think superheroes... I don't know.
I have no idea.
But come on into this story.
It's the end of the world.
You can join the good guys.
There's signs all around you, it's happening.
Earthquakes, famines, and kids on campuses protesting, you know, what's happening in Palestine.
The seductiveness of the end times means that you're drawn into this thing where what Israel does for you is all you care about.
That's not love, right?
Like, so anyway, we could we've talked about this.
We could talk about it more.
Let's let's let's move on.
Let's let's let's take a quick break.
Come back and jump into Trump's comments in Time magazine this week and a very alarming interview.
Be right back.
All right, Dan, I'll turn it over to you.
Take us through some of the major points of this interview.
Some people emailed me that people are alarmed about it.
Some people haven't heard about it because we just live in that kind of world now, so go for it.
Yeah, so we get to dive from one pleasant topic into another.
So yeah, Trump said a lot of things in several interviews, really, over the course of the past week.
You and I were talking before the show, one of the things that I think has happened is, as Trump has to spend a lot of time sitting in a courtroom, is he's not on social media all the time.
He's not at rallies all the time.
And so I think two things happen when he finds himself in front of a camera.
Number one, it's all sort of distilled.
It's like, it's like it's been, you know, just brewing all day and dripping down into some super intense kind of concentrated form.
So when he opens his mouth, it's almost worse.
I'm going to say, I'm going to make copy metaphors.
Brad's looking at me like, what are you doing?
And I think the other one is that it actually stands out more, right?
There is a lack of background noise.
And so I think it sort of stands out and gets people's attention.
But a couple of things.
So yeah, he did this interview in Time Magazine with Eric Kordelessa.
And that interview was focused on basically saying, it was done at Mar-a-Lago, tell us about your vision of a second term, right?
If you win in 2024, what's that going to be like?
Before you do that, I want to back up just a little.
He also this week was interviewed by the Milwaukee Journal-Constitution, and they asked, will you accept the results of the 2024 election?
Like, if you don't win, what are you going to do?
And so forth.
And this is sort of background to this.
And what he did is he warned that if the election was not, quote, honest, And this is what he said, then you have to fight for the right of the country.
Goes on to say, I'd be doing a disservice to the country if I said otherwise.
And then he says, but no, I expect an honest election.
We expect to win maybe very big, right?
So obviously, the result is that for Trump, again, if he wins, it's a fair election.
If he doesn't, it won't be a fair election.
And so that sort of, for me, sets all of this up.
There has been no backing off of The logic of January 6th.
There's been no backing off of the logic of the big lie.
There's been no backing away from the plans of false electors and everything else.
I think that that's a backdrop to this, and this came through in the interview as well.
So let's imagine that that happens.
He wins the election.
He's in office.
What's it going to be like?
I'm just going to kind of go through the, again, if folks want to take a look at it, you just Google, like, Time Trump interview, and there it is.
But it's a long read.
There's a lot there.
So I'm just going to move through what I think were some of the highlights.
It's not everything in there, but what I think are some of the highlights of the points that Trump made.
And what stands out to me, Brad, is number one, nothing should be surprising.
OK?
And it's all so much out in the open now.
There is no more coded language.
There's no more, you know, sort of hemming and hawing.
He does occasionally decline to give specifics, doesn't want to pin himself to exactly what he's going to do.
But there's no secret here of what he imagines this to be.
So one of the first one, again, is the threats of violence if he loses.
In this interview, they ask him about this, and he says, "You know, it depends.
It always depends on the fairness of the election." You know, he's like, "Yeah, I just shrugged." He's like, "I don't know.
I can't say.
I can't say it's not going to be violent.
It just depends if I win, basically, is what it comes down to." He hammers away on anti-immigration in really chilling ways.
He said that he would immediately sign an order reinstating many of his former policies.
That's not that much of a surprise, including the resumption of border wall construction.
He's going to finish his big, beautiful wall and so forth.
But he also said that there would be massive deportation programs targeting millions, that it would be to actively deport millions of people.
He said that he would use the National Guard to do this.
And when he was asked about the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act, it's the act that says that you can't use the U.S.
military against civilians.
It's designed to prevent coups, it's designed to prevent martial law, it's designed to prevent various things like that.
His response was that those who are in the country illegally or without status are not civilians.
Doesn't follow through on that, but he's like, you're a criminal, you're not a civilian.
He calls them criminals, says you're not a civilian.
We could tease out the logic and the implications of all of these things.
And Brad, if I move on, you're like, no, stop, wave me down.
I think the implications of that are really, really chilling.
So that was one.
He signaled support for red state abortion bans.
He said he would not comment on vetoing a federal ban.
Now, he has said that he doesn't favor a federal ban, and we and others have said we don't believe that, we think he would do that.
But he was asked, okay, so let's imagine that the Republicans win Congress, they put one together, it comes across your desk, are you going to veto it?
He would not really take a position on that.
That means no, he wouldn't veto it, is what that means.
Right.
So he has said that he doesn't support a federal ban.
But in this interview, it's clear that you can imagine being like, I didn't support it.
Like, they just they gave it to me.
What am I going to do?
Like, I got it.
You know, I got to sign it.
It's the it's the will of the people.
It's the will of Congress.
He also said that states should be allowed to do as they wish, including monitoring pregnancies, tracking people that are pregnant to make sure that they bring them to term.
And he says, and they ask him, they said, well, do you have, or rather he asked him, he says, do you have any concerns about this?
It goes too far if it's too, he says, he says that those concerns are irrelevant because it's states' rights.
It's in the states, right?
And so he plays that game of saying, well, you know, whatever they're going to do, they're I'm just the president.
I'm just the guy arguing for unified executive authority and absolute immunity.
But what am I going to do if they choose to do this?
So no criticism of any of those kinds of things.
No limits on those.
He talks about firing U.S.
attorneys who don't prosecute who he wants them to, who don't take up the cases that he wants.
He has told supporters that he supports seeking retribution against political opponents, that this is explicitly what this is for.
It's hidden behind vagueness.
You know, he's asked, you know, can you give any details?
Can you say more?
He says, we're going to look at a lot of things.
Just lets that kind of sit.
But he also promises in the interview, he says that if SCOTUS determines the presidents aren't immune, that they don't have absolute immunity, then quote, Biden will be prosecuted for all of his crimes.
So he throws that down.
So if he loses in SCOTUS, he's like, if I'm president, I'm going after Biden.
First thing.
He dangled pardons for J6 rioters.
He says, I call them J6 patriots.
That was his quote.
He talked about not coming to the defense of U.S.
allies, the transactionalism, the views of NATO, and including European allies, Asian allies, South Korea, the notion that they're not playing fair, they're not paying in.
On and on.
He also said he hammered away at this thing that he has of presenting the U.S., especially blue state cities, as a kind of crime-ridden hellscape.
He's asked about data that shows that crime is reducing and it's not as high as it used to be.
He says the data is rigged, simply dismisses it.
And he pledges to send the National Guard to quote-unquote struggling cities.
And then to the issue that, because of course critics, I think including you and I, would say, among other things, this is the classic dog whistle, the anti-crime is classic anti-black dog whistle stuff.
He's confronted with this and he responds by saying that quote, anti-white feeling in the country can't be allowed.
He dismisses that and basically says, if you're going to criticize these and say that this is about targeting poor communities or African-American communities and so forth, that's anti-white sentiment, we can't allow that.
We just can't have that stuff.
So those are some of the high points, low points of what he says.
The last point that I'll make is, that's highlighted in the article that we've talked about, that lots of people talked about, is that this time, in addition to being in the open, he has a better overall operation.
He has remade the GOP into the MAGA party.
He's not going to get any hit, any speed bumps of any kind from anybody in the GOP.
There are policy groups that have already sort of built a true believer government in waiting.
I think that's a phrase from in the article, a government in waiting.
It's a great phrase.
It's sort of a plug and play, like ready to go on day one kind of thing.
And something else that we've talked about is that he has said he's going to enforce what's called Schedule F. That's the thing that gives the president the authority to fire non-political government officials, you know, political appointees and things like that, people who aren't elected to a position.
We've talked about this on and on and on about, you know, building, getting rid of the so-called deep state, filling every position with ideological true believers.
That's the quick rundown.
A lot to say about all of those.
We could spend episodes on it.
I know we don't have episodes to spend on it, so I'll throw it to you for sort of your thoughts on any of those or other things that stood out as you worked your way through this pretty expansive interview.
It's everything we've talked about.
I keep getting asked by journalists, by listeners, by people at events, hey, what's a Trump term look like?
If he's president again, what are we going to get?
And I'm like, I'm not guessing, I know.
Read Project 2025.
Read these interviews.
We know what we're going to get.
We can go through all the details.
We're going to run out of time.
I do want to talk about the UMC.
A lot of people care about the UMC, and I want to talk about it.
So I'm not going to go into granular detail here.
I want to make two points.
One is, you guys remember the clips I just played?
You know, like Sean Foyt and Eric Metaxas on Flashpoint?
You know who the guest was right before them?
Who happens to be the co-chair of the Republican National Convention?
Who happens to be Trump's daughter-in-law, Lara Trump?
Who was on the Christian Nationalists on Steroids New Apostolic Reformation Dutch Sheets Lance Wallnau Regular Guest Program?
Lara Trump.
Who is the co-chair of the Republican National Convention?
So, that's one.
Two, if I just zoom way out, I saw a tweet today, this week, and I don't remember who it was and I apologize, but a lot of folks say this and it's apt right now.
Fascism will eventually come for everybody.
And when I listen to that laundry list of, you're not a civilian, you're an illegal, I'm going to use the National Guard on, quote unquote, struggling cities.
I'm going to use the legal system to go after political opponents and I will fire anybody who doesn't.
That's one that really stands out to me.
I'm going to track, yeah, totally fine if women's periods are being tracked to see if they're pregnant, and then if they're driving on the highway from Texas West to get to a state where they can get reproductive health care, yeah, arrest them.
I mean, there were Christian nationalists, and again, this is one of those weeks, Dan, we could have talked about the proposal in the House that was anti-Semitism awareness, we could have talked about John MacArthur, we could have talked about a couple of Christian nationalist pastors that said, yeah, if a woman has an abortion, put her to death.
So, like, this is the kind of government-in-waiting, the kind of ideological framework that is going to input this man's second term.
I don't need to guess.
I know.
I know what he's going to do, and he keeps telling you what he's going to do.
Last point I'll make is I am, I was severely, I am...
If you actually know me in real life, you know I'm always disappointed in everyone, right?
I just am.
So that's that.
I go to the preschool hangout and I'm like, be your dad, the nicest man ever.
My dad is the kindest, most patient man you'll ever meet.
He's like, you go to the grocery store with my dad in our hometown and he's shaking hands, kissing babies.
He is so kind.
And I'm always there.
I'm like, go be Leroy Onishi.
My dad's name is Leroy?
Yeah, I know.
That's a whole episode.
You want to talk about my dad being Leroy from Hawaii, whatever, it's fine.
And every time I go to a thing, I turn into Larry David in like six minutes.
I'm just like, I'm always disappointed in everyone.
But I'm severely disappointed in Joe Biden.
I can tell you all the reasons why.
One of the speech he gave yesterday, I thought was really horrendous, just horrendous.
And he really did not do well.
And I'm happy for you to jump in on that, Dan.
I don't want to apologize for Joe Biden.
I don't want to sit here and say, Joe Biden, great job.
I don't do any of that.
I also know that voting for Donald Trump will not help Jewish people.
It will not help Muslim people.
It will not help women.
It will not help people of color.
It will not help people anywhere at all.
It won't.
It will not.
And so I'm going to leave it there for today, but this is a very good reminder.
Do you want to jump in on Biden's speech real quick before we do UMC?
Just, it sort of hit it on the head of like the classic guy being like, get off my lawn, they need to be more orderly.
Just, it was vacuous.
I understand, I think, parts of the political dance he's trying to do, but one thing I'll say is Biden could have avoided a lot of this a lot earlier if he would just do anything to modify policy toward Israel.
I want to point, I guess I'll say this too.
I don't know what backroom discussions go on, but if we compare Israel's response to the drone attacks from Iran to their response in Gaza, they did basically nothing in response to those.
I'm not sure I don't know what pressure the US administration and European allies and others put on them that were like, you're not starting a full scale war in the Middle East or else this and this and this will happen.
I don't know what that was, but I believe something big happened because they were so restrained.
In that, as compared to this, the point being, the U.S.
can do something, could do something, the Biden administration could.
Anything would have, months ago, if anything had been done, I think it would have defused a great deal of this, and it just has.
So yeah, ongoing disappointment, but I agree.
I think it's also, we slip into another either or, if we're like, well, this is disappointing, so I guess there's no difference between Trump and Biden.
No, I'm sorry, there is.
There's a difference between a really, really flawed democratic system and democratic leader, small d democratic leader, not political party democratic leader, and somebody who just basically wants to do away with democracy and make the U.S.
into a theocratic kind of autocracy.
That is still at risk in this election, in my view.
Well, and bring us to a fascist turning point, basically.
All right.
Happier news.
This is a good, like, cleanse the palate.
Everybody take a drink of your water.
Pick up your kombucha there.
You know.
I would drink my boba, Dan, but the straw's broken.
And I have a boba straw.
I am Asian American.
I actually have a straw at my house for drinking boba.
Okay?
And I can't find it.
We have boba straws in our house, too.
How's that?
How's that?
That's pretty, yeah.
That's pretty good.
Are you trying to out-Asian me now?
All right.
No.
My daughter is maybe out-Asianing you.
She's the boba fan.
Well, I was going to say, white people in this country basically know about Bobo because of their teenage children.
That's exactly true.
Yep.
That's why you all know about it.
All right.
Tell us about the UMC.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
So, a little bit of background.
I'll try to go fast, but not sort of breathlessly fast here.
Lots of people might know this.
Lots of people might not.
So, the United Methodist Church, that's what we're talking about with the UMC.
It's the second largest Protestant denomination in the U.S., and it has had Internal conflicts about LGBTQ plus inclusion and doctrines going on for decades.
And essentially you've had liberal and progressive versus more conservative American clergy have argued about this and disagreed about this.
The official doctrinal position of the UMC has been that marriage is between one man and one woman, That clergy cannot be openly gay or otherwise queer identified.
They have doctrines talking about, you know, castigating quote-unquote homosexuality and so forth.
And you've had liberals and progressives who have just basically defied that and have wanted to do away with that and conservatives have pushed back.
You also have a global perspective on this.
Most Methodists at this point are not, they don't live in North America, they're not American, and In big sections of the Global South, there has been opposition to a more inclusive doctrine and so forth.
Since 2019, this has really been coming to a breakpoint, and basically the more conservative churches in the UMC have been able to leave if they want to disaffiliate, and they've joined most of them what's called the Global Methodist Church, If you're a dorky religious studies person, this is really interesting because you're seeing like sort of the emergence of a different denomination, one of the biggest sort of realignments that's happened certainly in the 21st century.
And what that did, and everybody knew this, is it paved the way for The development of a more LGBTQ plus inclusive approach within the United Methodist Church.
They just had their like 11 day long annual denominational meeting and this is where all the stuff went down and so a number of things that I take is very hopeful and positive and I know that you do as well.
One is they adopted a policy of regionalism, and what that was is instead of saying the U.S.
United Methodist Church is kind of the global head of the church, they kind of created these global regions like the U.S., Europe, Africa, the Philippines.
Why did they do that?
Two reasons.
One that would be worth further discussion is a kind of decolonizing move of saying, White American Methodists, and most of them are white in the United Methodist Church, are not the voice of global Methodism, and we don't need to tell the Philippines and Africans what it is to be Methodist or Christian and so forth.
But the other one is, it frees up those regions to develop their own policies towards sexuality and doctrinal positions and so forth.
What that really set up was a slate of LGBTQ-plus inclusive policies that were passed overwhelmingly, and many so overwhelmingly that there was no debate.
For example, they deleted penalties against clergy for conducting same-sex marriages.
They removed bans for queer-identified clergy.
And they removed anti-LGBTQ language from their doctrinal statement on social issues.
And they now affirm marriage as a covenant between, quote, two people of faith, so obviously still Christian, Two people of faith, but without specifying anything about the gender of those involved.
Huge shifts for those who track American religion.
As I say, it's been going on for a long time.
The whole disaffiliation thing has been going on for like half a decade at this point, and this predates that.
A lot of people in the UMC fighting for this for decades.
Lots of activists.
Huge and significant, I think, very positive set of events this week.
It is good news, and I think it's always a good reminder that the Sean Foyts and Eric Metaxas of the world don't represent even close to a majority of religious Americans in the country, and there's a lot of religious Americans who are Protestant Christians, who are Catholic Christians, who are Hindu, who are Muslim, who are Buddhist, who are otherwise people of faith or no faith.
There's just a lot of Americans out there who believe in LGBTQ rights, who believe in reproductive rights and healthcare.
Some new polling out that showed that something in the high 70% of Americans or low 80% of Americans believe in abortion in most cases.
So, that's what it is.
Anyway.
I'll start with my good news.
It's it's one I'm stealing from I'm not stealing it from you Dan But it's one that we could have again talked about for for half an hour today, and that's in Arizona There is the repeal of the abortion ban the Civil War era ban.
We talked about a few weeks ago It's not all good news because it won't take effect for a couple of months.
So you cannot probably for the foreseeable future Get it access to an abortion in Arizona, but nonetheless it shows this issue there were Republicans who Who broke ranks and voted with the Democrats to repeal this, which shows you there's Republicans that know they need to do that if they want to get elected.
Going back to Trump's time interview, he's hemming and hawing and basically completely incoherent about abortion and an abortion ban and it's the state's rights, but if they put it up for the National ban.
Maybe I'll sign it.
I probably would.
But we're going to win big.
And, you know, it's just they don't have an answer.
And Arizona is one more sign of that.
I said last week, I think the players in the in the three act play are set.
Abortion continues to be one of them.
And the campus protests and Gen Z continues to be one of them as well.
So we'll keep an eye on all of that.
What's your reason for hope?
Yeah, so mine is a woman named Kate Lindley.
She's a high school senior in Virginia, and she made news, not necessarily nationally, but I came across it somewhere.
She's a Girl Scout and was recognized for achieving her Gold Award, which is the highest award that a Girl Scout can achieve.
And it was because of her project Combating Book Bans.
That was her project.
So she created banned book nooks, as I understand it, in her community.
Places where businesses or other places would collect the books that were banned from schools and libraries and so forth, and advertise that so people could have access to it.
She helped create an app helping others find banned books and access those.
And so like all of that's cool, but then what made her one of my spirit animals this week is that they had this school board recognition of awards and things like this.
And so it's the school board that had been banning books.
Their word for it is deselecting books, something like 91.
And so when she gave her description of her project, like, you know, you go to these award things, you give them the bio, the description of your project, whatever, they censored it.
They would not say that she had been combating the banned books.
So when she got up to the podium, she said, you have shown the world that you are afraid to call something what it is, be that a banned book or a deselected one.
And so I thought, and she read her original description of the project, so it still got out there.
So I don't know, that was just, Huge.
We talked at the end of our supplemental episode and some other things about what do you do?
How do you make change?
How do you deal with these overwhelming things?
And here's a person on a local level doing really concrete things that could have profound impacts.
And so I thought that was a really powerful story this week.
Yeah, it's great stuff.
Alright y'all, it's time for us to go.
I gotta go get a straw that works.
Dan's gotta go buy some shirts.
I'm gonna go buy some t-shirts.
I'm going to a metal concert this weekend and I will probably get a shirt, you know.
I'll wear it just for Brad.
So many people came to your defense.
So many people were like, I buy all, like somebody just went to DC.
I won't say their name.
You know who you are.
And they shared a picture of like their pajamas they bought in DC, like their sweat pants that they bought in DC.
So a lot of people on Team Dan here.
And I'm going to say, I am not, I'm not going to buy the shirt.
I'm not buying things that say I went to Acapulco or What I'm going to do is I'm going to screen print your face on a shirt and like every place I've ever been or every band I've ever seen, they're all just going to be printed over it.
Sorry Omaha, I'm not buying a shirt, okay?
All right?
I'm not doing it.
Fresno, you're not getting me to pay the $15, okay?
All right.
All right, y'all.
Catch us at Straight White JC this Monday, two days from now.
I'm going to be airing my interview with Sarah McCammon on The Exevangelicals.
I have a lot to say about that book.
Our bonus episode's coming out this weekend, and we did two hours.
We spoke with Leah Payne on God Gave You Rock and Roll.
So, if you're not a subscriber, it is time.
Jump in there and make sure you have access to everything we're doing.
We'll be back next week, but for now, we'll just say thanks for being here.
