Bonus Ep. 2: That Time Brad Told You About Eternal Torment at Lunch
Brad tells cringy stories from his teenage years in order to make a point: Christian conservatives often start arguments by saying that everyone has a worldview, so everyone is religious. If you don't worship God, they say, then you worship yourself or something else. Brad and Dan decode and refute this argument, while telling hilarious stories from the past. They also answer a ton of AMA questions.
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I barely remember my name right now, but I am Brad Onishi, and I'm here with my co-host.
I'm Dan Miller.
I'm professor of religion and social thought at Landmark College, co-host of Straight White American Jesus, and I can attest that the person I'm looking at appears to be Bradley Onishi.
Well, yeah.
It appears to be.
This is the most cliche thing in the whole world I'm going to start this episode with.
It's our bonus episode.
All our subscribers are here.
And you all are really getting a behind-the-scenes look.
Parenting is the hardest job I've ever had, hands down.
So right now I've got a sick kid who's taking a nap.
My wife has our other kid at work today.
She had to go into the office, which is not normal.
My stepmom is here to help out with that process and it's, I could tell you more.
But anyway, it's a whole, it's a whole thing.
Of just fun and adventure and something else.
Yeah.
We're not going to post the video of this because if you saw me, you would be like, wow, Brad needs to get it together.
But it's really just, I have two children, neither of whom slept last night.
And it's like 12.20 my time, Dan.
And I honestly looked at the clock like a half an hour ago and I was like, oh, what time is it?
5.30 in the afternoon?
Nope.
Nah, not even noon.
So, that's how I'm doing.
I was thinking about this today, having older kids who don't keep me up awake at night as much, except for the one who gets the disgusting stomach issues, but whatever.
But I was remembering, like, yeah, one time, like, the first time I had, like, both kids sick and, like, whatever, and I remember I got, like, eight hours of sleep in, like, three nights combined or something, you know?
Something, like, just kind of brutal.
That's about where we are right now.
So, all right.
We're going to talk about worldviews today.
We're going to answer a lot of AMA questions.
There's a lot of AMAs this week or this month.
So, we'll do that.
And then I think we're going to talk about conspiracy theories and just some weird stuff happening.
So, last bonus episode, last month, you did an epic job Telling a story about young Dan Miller in a parking lot, getting arrested.
I think the way that you told the story was fantastic, but if I was going to praise you as a writer, someone describing a scene, I think the Bible chain is really what sold the deal for people.
I think once you told people you had a Bible on a chain, like a wallet, They could picture just how devout you were, how singularly committed you were, and what a just kind of crazy guy you are.
I mean, well done.
Sometimes one detail makes a scene, and I feel like that detail made the scene, along with the combat boots and other things.
Only at the cost of my self-respect, but like, you know, it's there.
It's real.
I can own who I have been, I guess.
So I want to, you know, just in the spirit of reciprocity here, I'll tell you some things about me in high school and that'll lead us into talking about worldviews and some other things.
So here's what happened with me, Dan.
I converted at age 14.
I converted right at the end of eighth grade.
And I was in a largely non-religious home and was the kind of guy that, I got good grades, I played a lot of sports, I did stuff in the, like, if you were like a parent from one of the baseball teams or something that I played on, you wouldn't have thought like juvenile delinquent.
But I definitely was like pushing the boundaries in eighth grade of like doing things that a lot of people don't do until high school and sex, drugs, rock and roll and that kind of business.
And the reason I bring that up is because when I converted, I converted hard.
And I've talked about this.
People have heard me talk about it.
But I want to get into some of the ways that that happened and what it looked like.
So I convert at the end of eighth grade.
And that summer I'm telling all my friends, like I won't, I'm not going to kiss anyone until my wedding day.
Like I'm like a 14 year old boy at this point.
They're used to a very different version of me.
Our whole goal, like a lot of 14 year olds was to like, you know, find ways to make out with each other.
And in terms of like, you go to like the eighth grade dance and you're like, can we sneak away from the teachers and boy and a girl make out kind of deal.
So that was the way that I explained my conversion in sexual terms, my approach to dating and all that business.
But what also was true about me is that I was a voracious reader, and I still am.
I still just read a lot, and I read quickly.
And I turned into that guy who would ride his bike to the Christian bookstore And, like, buy all the books by Josh McDowell and C.S.
Lewis.
And, you know, there was all these, like, books for, like, answering questions, like Christian apologetics for teens, how to talk to your atheist friend, how to talk to your... Atheist teacher, right.
Atheist teacher, your friend who's a Muslim, your friend who's a Buddhist, your friend who's an agnostic.
All of that.
Your friend who's into the New Age, we used to call it the New Age, right?
New Age spirituality.
And I just became one of those guys that was determined that whatever you threw at me, I was going to be able to prove to you that Christianity was true.
That you could doubt the Bible, you could doubt the resurrection of Jesus, you could doubt the history of Genesis and the creation, you could talk to me about evolution, you could talk... and I was going to have answers.
I mean, does this bring back memories for you at all?
Yeah.
You know when you're talking about this, I had a... I remember from our local Christian bookstore, I got this like worldviews poster.
Like it went on your wall and it had like all the major faith traditions and it had like
There are views of man, views of afterlife, view of this and like it was like this grid right so you could like just look at it and kind of map out what they had and then of course it had like one that was like biblical truth or you know something that like so it was this kind of like no matter what the other view was you could like at least point to the one and be like nope this is the the one that's true or yeah the books that would be like the fallacies of all the non everything non-christian you're saying that the catch-all of like
New Age spirituality, whatever that was supposed to be, and like secular humanism.
That was a big one.
Yeah.
Secular humanism as the, you know, the real religion that people who aren't religious are really following and, you know, whatever.
And yeah, so like this kind of, it was presented always as like methodical way of like, you know, give us your best shot.
We can meet it.
We can always be there.
This kind of, yeah, that heart of like evangelical apologetic stuff.
And so if you imagine my high school, I grew up in California and I know I've talked about this so many times on the show, but where I grew up was deeply conservative politically and also religiously.
So about, I would guess that about one in five, one in six of the kids at my high school were evangelicals, white evangelicals.
You know, by contrast, my wife grew up in Western Mass, and she said she didn't know an Evangelical until she got to college, right?
Whereas where I grew up, there were like, at my high school of 2,000 kids, there was probably, I don't know how many of them would have identified as Evangelical, but it was, there were hundreds of us, for sure, right?
I mean, there was a lot.
We would often have debates at lunch between the evangelicals and the Mormons because there's a bunch of Mormons in Southern California, Latter-day Saints folks.
I got to ask, right?
So you say debates.
Was this like a formal or was it like we're going to go to the Mormon table and like pick a fight?
Or was it like staged as we're going to be all, I don't know, intellectual and structured and have that like an actual debate?
So let me like try to paint the picture further and then it'll make sense how these debates happen.
From the time I got to my high school, twice a week there was a Bible study at lunch that was informal.
So on like Mondays it was Matt and on Thursdays it was Keith when I was a freshman.
And you'd go and sit near this planter and Matt, who was like a senior, would open the Bible.
I'm just saying Matt and Keith are real names here, right?
They are.
And if you'd have Chip and Chad, it would be like, you know, slightly better, but that's it.
And I thought they were the coolest guys in the world.
Matt was a surfer like me, and I remember being a freshman and he, like, took me surfing in his 1970s car.
My mom was very worried about this 16-year-old dude driving me around.
But we would all go sit, so there'd probably be, like, 20, 30 kids sitting in a public high school on a planter, you know, or in front of a planter while this guy opens his Bible and teaches from the Book of John.
And the same on Thursdays.
We'd do it again.
So that would happen.
And then there would be these times where I remember Keith, especially when I was a freshman, would put a little stool down in the middle of the quad and he would start open-air preaching, Dan.
And at the time I just thought, that guy is the coolest Christian I've ever met.
Like, I can't believe he has the guts to do that.
I can't believe he has the guts to stand up and preach like that.
That's incredible.
Well, fast forward two, three years, I become the guy who teaches the Bible study.
But, and like Keith, I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to like evangelize.
So I would, there was times, even when I was a freshman, when I would walk around and ask people if they knew about the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And I would have pamphlets and I would, you know, whatever.
And it was super cringy, man.
Like if you're a 15 year old kid at the time, who's just like super into smashing pumpkins and some duo of people your age walks up to you at lunch and while you're eating your tater tots and is just like, Hey, did you know you're probably going to burn in hell?
You want to learn more about that?
Hey, I'm Brad.
Nice to meet you.
That's cringy and that's awkward, but we did it because we thought everybody who didn't know Jesus was going to go to hell.
I would do that on Fridays.
So a lot of Fridays, if I didn't have something to do at church, I would go to the movie theater with a friend and we'd stand outside and we'd be like, yo, how's it going?
I'm Brad.
This is Andy.
I just wanted to talk to you about your eternal salvation and maybe what's going to happen to you after you die.
Do you have a minute?
And we'd have pamphlets and the whole thing.
It was awkward.
It was cringy.
Were there those little comic book pamphlets?
The ones with the little graphic novel style ones?
I thought those were the coolest thing and so edgy and like whatever.
So we had graphic novel ones, we had paper money ones that looked like money, and then you opened it and it was like, hey, I'm sure you thought this was $20, but it's something more valuable.
I remember that one.
The ones that fold out to like a cross shape.
Yeah.
And so that's my Milu in many ways.
It's a heavily Christian environment in ways that people don't expect in California, in ways that maybe mirrored Arkansas.
Yeah.
Except for we were like surfer kids and wearing like, you know, skater kids rather than, you know, kids from the Mid-South or whatever.
So I come back to the Mormon, Latter-day Saint, evangelical debate.
So every once in a while someone like Keith or Matt or whoever was one of the leaders of our posse Would, like, go up and talk to one of the really, like, leaders of the LDS posse.
It was, like, two rival gangs.
Sorry, where you grew up, was there, like, a big LDS, like, population?
Yeah.
Because I grew up in Western Colorado, and so, like, everybody thinks Mormons, they think Utah, but, like, lots of areas of the West have, you know, significant Mormon populations.
Like, where I grew up, there were a lot.
I imagine parts of California are the same way.
So, I would say if 20% of my high school was Evangelical, I would say 15% was Mormon.
Like, a lot.
A lot.
This is really starting to suck for the other 65% of the school.
I'm just saying, between the Mormons and the Evangelicals.
No, it does.
And who I'm not counting are the people that were kind of like, Very uncommitted, but part of one of those groups.
Like there was a lot of people who went to evangelical churches, Easter, Christmas, baptism, you know, that were on the basketball team.
They'd go to youth group events and stuff like that.
Like the ones you'd invite to an event and they'd go to like the youth group pizza night or like whatever.
They weren't sort of the true believers, but they were like fringe.
They were on the edge.
And if you ask that kid that you just described, you ask Jerry, hey, do you believe in God?
He's like, of course I believe in God, right?
Now, does Jerry super into the Bible and super into riding his bike to the Christian bookstore like Brad?
No, but is he an evangelical?
I mean, probably, you know, so if I throw all those people in, we're at even higher rates here.
We're at even like, we're like, we're getting into the 30s and 40% of people who are in the LDS evangelical groups.
So, we would pray.
I was the captain of the basketball team, and before the game, one of us would lead a prayer.
You know how I learned the Lord's Prayer?
Before football games.
I, as an evangelical, didn't know the Lord's Prayer until I moved to Arkansas, and before every football game, we would say the Lord's Prayer as a team.
The dude who was completely not Christian and sleeping with everybody, whatever, he'd say the Lord's Prayer.
We'd all say the Lord's Prayer.
Yeah, like that's where I learned the Lord's Prayer was before football games.
And then my coach would go out and swear a blue streak like, you know, the entire game.
We'd always say the Lord's Prayer before games.
So, there'd be these debates where you get this person who's really committed LDS.
We were really used to LDS kids going to seminary in the mornings.
And I remember challenging my evangelical friends, like, why don't we do that?
These folks are like way more committed than us.
Why don't we get up at 5 30 a.m.
and go to seminary every morning?
We should.
So we were really used to that and so you'd have these debates where there'd be like a circle of 50-60 kids and two people like talking about like the Book of Mormon isn't really scripture and you know Jesus was never in the Americas blah blah blah and there'd be all these things happening.
All right.
So, that's me as a kid.
That's me and some of my most cringy, awkward moments.
I had guys on the basketball team where I would, after a game, we're on the bus and I'd be like, you know, it's dark, we're sweaty, we're like trying to get home and do homework, and it's like, hey, Matt, I haven't had a chance to ask you this yet, but just wondering, like, what's your, what are your thoughts about God in the afterlife?
That natural segue to like, Like, do you believe in eternal torment?
Does that sound like it would suck?
Because I think it would suck.
Like, you know, like, oh, speaking of, like, you scored 20 points tonight, what's going to happen when you die?
Like, whatever.
None of those points, none of those points will count once you're dead.
What will happen then, Matthew?
Okay.
Make God your team captain.
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All right.
So why do I bring all this up?
I bring all this up because it was when I look back on it, it's super awkward.
But one of my goals as a kid was like, I don't care what you believe.
I'm going to have it figured out intellectually to counter what you say, because I know the truth.
And I think this is one of those characteristics of people that often end up leaving evangelicalism because they're so invested in the intellectual framework that eventually they're like, you know, as with inerrancy, as with anything else, this doesn't hold together.
This is not coherent.
I bring that up because I would have these debates and I would find people that were secular humanists or Catholics even.
I would even talk to Catholics about the issues with them and Mormons and whoever.
But one of the things that you said earlier was true.
We thought And I'm going to see what you think of this statement.
You brought it up already.
That secular humanism itself was a religion.
And if you were like, I don't believe in anything, or I'm an atheist, or I'm kind of just a secular person.
I had one friend, his name was Morgan, whose parents were doctors.
He was one of my wealthiest friends.
His house was way, way, way, like three of my houses could have fit in Morgan's house.
But I asked him, I was like, so what are you?
Are you religious?
He was like, no, but you know, I'll come to youth group with you because there's a lot of cute girls at your church.
And I was like, what about your parents?
He's like, they're secular humanists.
And like, I almost gasped.
I was like, oh my God.
I found secular humanists in the wild.
This is crazy.
So, what did you guys in Arkansas and Colorado think of secular humanism?
Yeah, it was the same thing.
Another cringey.
Like, mine was sometimes that student who was gonna, like, push the teachers, right?
So, like, I wrote somewhere, like, an English paper or something about how secular humanism was... This is what it was.
This is what it was.
It was some paper.
It was, like, English or civics or something.
But it was about the myth of separation of church and state.
And the myth of America not being and it was the America is always going to have a religious basis.
It's just that now all the liberals make it secular humanism and it was founded as a Christian country and all this kind of stuff.
Yeah, secular humanism.
Like, I couldn't really have told you what was supposedly religious about secular humanism because, you know, if you're like, oh, what makes a religion is these following categories, like, it didn't have a text or it didn't have whatever.
But I think the idea was, I imagine this is part of what your background was where you're going, is this notion that Everybody has these kind of ultimate views or something.
And so like religions about these kind of ultimate claims, what your ultimate authority is, everybody has some ultimate authority.
And so yeah, mine was, you know, there's no way to be religiously neutral.
You can't do that.
So like, when people say that the role of government is to be neutral with regard to religion or something like that, that's It's all a big myth.
It's all a big ploy to actually advance secular humanism as the official religion of America, you know, with people like, at the time, it was like Bill Clinton, right?
Like that was during the Clinton years.
So yeah, definitely that notion to try to put everything onto this religious framework.
So all these anti, what we viewed as anti-Christian perspectives, they're all really religions.
They're rival religions.
Yeah.
So it's all this battle of the religions.
So here's the idea that I think is where we want to segue into going from very cringey 15 year old Brad, who just a weird little dude, to some things I think people probably hear on social media and in various corners of the internet.
And that's the idea that it is impossible not to be religious.
As you just said it, there's this idea that even if you are a secular person, you have a worldview with assumptions that shape the very principles and values you live by, and therefore you are just as religious As the devout Catholic, the devout Evangelical, the devout Orthodox Jew, and so on and so on and so on.
That idea was true to me in 1994, 1996 when I was walking around the movie theater.
It's true now when people encounter Theo Bros on Twitter.
Or others who will tell them, look, the United States cannot be a secular nation because there is no such thing as the secular.
And here's the next step.
There's no such thing as the secular because there's no such thing as the neutral.
And secular is supposed to be neutral.
Well, you can't be neutral.
Everybody has a worldview.
Everybody has ultimate values and principles they live by.
And here's the kicker.
And I want you to tell me if this rings a bell too.
If you don't worship God, if you don't worship any deity, then you're bound to worship the human.
You're bound to deify the human in a way that is dangerous.
And that is why secular humanism or atheism will never be anything but a pseudo religion In the guise of some kind of non-religious label.
Did you guys think that?
Like if you don't worship God, you worship man.
I heard that like a thousand times.
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