Brad speak with Dr. Matt Taylor, a foremost scholar on the New Apostolic Reformation. Matt takes Brad through all of the connections new Speaker of the House Mike Johnson has to the New Apostolic Reformation - an independent charismatic movement that is growing rapidly in the United States. One of the key points Matt makes is that the NAR teachers/pastors that Mike Johnson is connected to advocate for a colonizer theology - they want to colonize the United States as Christians bent on dominating government, media, education, and every other sector of society.
Dr. Taylor's writing on the subject: https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/mike-johnson-polite-extremist
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I am Brad Onishi, faculty at the University of San Francisco, here today with a beloved former co-host, guest, team member, person who has really contributed to this podcast in major ways, and that is Dr. Matthew Taylor.
So Matt, thanks for being here.
Thank you for having me back, Brad.
So, folks, if you don't know who Matt is, he is a senior scholar at the—he's a senior Protestant scholar at the ICJS, the Institute for Islamic, Christian, and Jewish Studies in Baltimore.
He specializes in Muslim-Christian dialogue.
Evangelical and Pentecostal movements and religion and politics in the United States.
His first book, Scripture People, Salafi Muslims and Evangelical Christians.
America is out with Cambridge University Press.
And his next book, The Violent Take It By Force, will be out soon, I believe early 2024 with Broadleaf Press.
And that is all about the New Apostolic Reformation, which we're going to talk about today.
I have you on today, Matt, to ask a pretty simple question.
New Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson.
What are his ties to the New Apostolic Reformation?
Before we answer that, can you give us 90 seconds on the New Apostolic Reformation for those who need a refresher or who have never heard of that?
Yeah, if you need an eight-hour refresher, go listen to Charismatic Revival Theory.
So, the New Apostolic Reformation is a network of networks.
of these are leadership networks.
They were formed.
They all exist in what we would call the independent charismatic world.
So this is a segment of Pentecostal charismatic Christianity.
It's kind of the, I think the easiest way to think about it is it's the non-denominational form of Pentecostalism.
So these are churches that are not attached to denominations.
Instead, what they have largely chosen to do in the independent charismatic world, attach themselves to apostles and prophets.
And there's dense theological history as to how they got there, but the idea is church governance should be led and organized around these latter-day, these modern-day apostles and prophets.
And this is a charismatic form of spirituality, so it's very invested in the supernatural, very invested in recreating what they understand to be the experience of the early church, the miraculous environment of the early church, and creating a revival movement towards what they understand to be the end times.
These networks just started in the 1990s.
They're often very closely associated with a seminary professor named C. Peter Wagner.
But he mentored and gathered a huge group, probably in the high hundreds, low thousands, of leaders in this independent charismatic world who are all attached to these ideas.
And then, as we talked about in the series, right around the mid-2000s, they adopted this very aggressive vision of theology.
Sometimes called Dominion Theology, sometimes called the Seven Mountain Mandate.
But the idea is that the church is not only supposed, they're not only going to revolutionize the church, they're going to take over the world and take over whole societies.
And then from that point on, they've gotten extremely involved in politics.
And the New York Stock Reformation leaders in these networks were really the backbone of Christian Trumpism, and as I argued in the series, are really at the heart of Christian organizing for January 6th.
Some people listening might be thinking, well, great, you're talking about a minor sect of American Protestantism.
Who cares?
Is this a sector of American Christianity that is growing and is it one that we should actually be paying attention to?
It is growing.
It is growing quite rapidly.
According to some studies, it is growing faster than any other Christian movement in the United States.
It is growing rapidly around the world.
These apostolic and prophetic dynamics and paradigms are very quickly expanding.
And just to give one number, one statistic, our friend Paul Jupe, who's a sociologist, after Charismatic Revival Fury came out, he put in the field a survey just to ask, How many people agree with these ideas of modern prophecy, and how many people agree specifically with this seven mountain mandate theology?
And he phrased it very specifically.
People, do you agree that Christians should sit atop the seven mountains of society?
This is a phrase that didn't exist 25 years ago, and he found that more than 20% of Americans, non-American Christians, more than 20% of Americans agree or strongly agree with that statement.
And so, yes, even though its networks are fairly small, their influence is just exponentially beyond the pure boundaries of those networks.
And one more question about the New Apostolic Reformation.
As you mentioned the Seven Mountain Mandate, the idea that there's seven domains of, you know, the world, of society that Christians should be in charge of, the economy, the government, the media, and so on.
Does this indicate the New Apostolic Reformation and its networks' understanding of a theology of takeover, a theology of control?
The goal is not to be Missionaries to a fallen world.
The goal is to take over the world for God.
Is that fair?
Is that too reductive?
No, that's totally a fair characterization.
So, and if you listen to how The idea of the seven-mountain mandate is coined by this guy, Lance Wallnau, propagated through these Nobisalic Reformation networks.
And if you listen to the rhetoric from the start, it very much is about takeover.
It's about taking over the tops of the mountains.
Influence will flow down from the top of the mountains.
This is a vanguard model of societal revolution.
You take over the positions of power, and you govern from the top.
And this came out a little bit in the Charismatic Revival Theory series.
It comes out even more in my book.
Often these folks will literally use the language of colonizing.
They will say, we are colonizing earth from heaven.
We are the colonizing force.
The church is the colonizing force that God has sent into the world in order to bring the culture of heaven into earth, make heaven on earth, to build the kingdom of God.
They're not shy about this stuff.
They've toned it down publicly sometimes, but still in their own documents, they're using those kind of phrases.
Well, on that cheery note of Christian colonizers, let's talk about our new Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson.
You've written a great new piece for the bulwark that just appeared this morning.
And there's a lot of speculation online about Mike Johnson.
I think the world is now coming to understand Mike Johnson as an incredibly conservative Christian who, you know, I'll be honest.
So I'm going to give you a characterization, Matt.
Kevin McCarthy, to me, is that guy who goes to church every Sunday, He's at church.
He's a loud mouth.
He's pretty arrogant.
He's shaking hands.
And he's doing all of that because he knows he needs to be there.
And yes, does he quote unquote believe it?
Yes.
Sure.
Yes, he does.
But like, he's the kind of guy that wakes up in the morning and is like, what's Kevin McCarthy getting today?
Yeah.
I mean, God.
Yes.
Jesus.
Great.
Okay.
Family.
Sure.
And so he's glad handing people at church.
He's trying to get people, right?
I know that guy at church.
I know him.
Mike Johnson's the guy that he's quiet.
He's sitting in the front row.
When he wakes up in the morning, he's like, how do I colonize earth for Jesus?
Okay.
He's not there to aggrandize him, his own persona.
Even if he does want power, people are waking up to this.
Now there's a lot of speculation.
What kind of Christian is he?
He's a Southern Baptist.
There's a lot of people on Twitter slash X saying he's a quote unquote dominionist.
We'll come back to that.
I just want to go through what you as a scholar, a specialist who I trust more than anyone on these issues, connect us to him and New Apostolic Reformation figures.
So the first people you point to in your piece for the bulwark are Jim Garlow and Mario Bramnick.
You point out that they were evangelical advisors to Trump and that they have connections to Johnson.
Can you tell us a little bit about their connection to Trump and then tell us where and how Mike Johnson is hanging with them, knows them, listening to them, whatever?
Yeah, let me backtrack just a little bit to how some of these folks got into Trump's orbit.
So if you think back to the 2016 campaign that really starts in 2015, Trump launches his presidential campaign in June of 2015.
By that fall, he's trying to start meeting with evangelical leaders, but most evangelical leaders don't want to meet with Trump at all.
They don't want to touch Trump with a 10-foot pole, right, because he's this vulgar, A real estate tycoon who has had three marriages, right?
And so, the people who come in and meet with Trump early on are largely these independent, charismatic, some New Apostolic Reformation leaders.
It's televangelists, it's apostles, it's prophets, and Messianic rabbis, right?
And so, some of these folks who get in at the ground level then stick with Trump all the way through.
And so a lot of these New Apostolic Reformation folks get in at that time.
They're kind of the ground floor evangelicals who are building theological rationales for supporting Trump.
Jim Garlow, actually I think you've been in the same room with him, Brad.
Jim Garlow, he's a pastor from Southern California from San Diego.
He was kind of on the fringes of some of the New Obstacle Reformation stuff early on, but then especially in the last decade or so, maybe last 15 years, he's really gotten into this stuff, has really attached himself to a lot of these NPR networks.
He was a very close advisor to Trump.
If you just Google Jim Garlow, name any member of the Trump family, any member of the Trump administration, he probably has a picture with them on one of his profiles.
He was very tied in.
Mario Bromnick is a Hispanic, I think, is his preferred term.
Latino, Latinx, however you want to characterize him, was one of the advisors to Trump.
He's very much a Christian Zionist leader.
He helps lead an organization of Hispanic Americans supporting the State of Israel, was also very important for Trump.
In fact, If you think back to when Trump was indicted in Miami, right after he gets indicted, he goes to a Cuban restaurant, and he's surrounded by this mob of supporters there.
And one of the people who walks up to him and starts praying for him there is Mario Bromley.
So very, very close to Trump, very close tied into the Trump administration.
A 2020 election is called for Joe Biden.
You start to have all these ramping up efforts to bolster Christian support for Trump, to try to overturn the election.
And one of the major prongs of that effort was something called the Global Prayer for Election Integrity Calls.
They were organized primarily by Jim Garlow and Mario Bromley.
And so you have Trump evangelical advisors running these calls.
Most of the people leading the calls are apostles or prophets.
It is a very built together kind of coalition forming set of calls.
They have at least 18 of these calls between the calling of the election and January 6th.
And they brag.
They sent an open letter to Donald Trump bragging that more than a million people viewed or participated in these calls.
And you have people like Steve Bannon on these calls.
You have Doug Mastriano on these calls.
So it's kind of tying together.
Michael Flynn joins some of these calls.
Sean Foy joins some of these calls.
So they're tying together the religious side of the mobilization effort with the practical movers and shakers.
After Biden's inauguration, those calls continue and they changed the name a couple of years ago.
Now they're the world prayer network calls, but it's the same people organizing them, the same platform.
It's just, they changed the name.
And Mike Johnson has been a regular participant in these calls.
I'll be frank.
I never heard of Mike Johnson up until last week.
And yet when you go and look him up, he was a regular participant in these calls.
He was regularly updating them on his own strategies around reaching out to people in Congress, trying to spread their political and really theological vision.
He says on one of the calls that Jim Garlow has been a mentor to him and who he has shaped Mike Johnson's faith.
And so you really do see that he was kind of their, in some ways, their point of access to Congress.
He was the guy from Congress who would come on these calls and share with them what was going on in Congress.
Hi, my name is Peter and I'm a prophet in the new novel American Prophet.
I was the one who dreamed about the natural disaster just before it happened.
Oh, and the pandemic.
And that crazy election.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not bragging.
It's not like I asked for the job.
Actually, no one would ask for this job.
At least half the people will hate whatever I say and almost everyone thinks I'm a little crazy.
Getting a date is next to impossible.
I've got a radio host who is making up conspiracies about me, a dude actually shooting at me, and an unhinged president threatening me.
But the job isn't all that bad.
I've gotten to see the country, and meet some really interesting people, and hopefully do some good along the way.
You can find my story on Amazon, Audible, or iTunes.
Just look for American Prophet by Jeff Fulmer.
That's American Prophet by Jeff Fulmer.
Let's just recap.
So we have Jim Garlow and Bram Nick, both close to Trump, organizing this kind of network of prayer calls and kind of mobilization efforts, as you say, connecting the religious leaders and oligarchy with the political pantheon of bad guys around Trump.
So essentially what you're saying is Mike Johnson's a kind of willing, enthusiastic, and consistent participant in a set of calls that included, right, a network of Sean Foy, Steve Bannon, all of those types that we hear about, Mike Flynn, as well as the New Apostolic Reformation leaders like Jim Garlow and Bram Nix.
So we have these like direct highs.
He's participating.
He wants to give strategy from Congress.
He's really a kind of leader when it comes to the congressional representation in this network.
All right, so that's in place.
And let me just clarify something really quick.
We don't have access to the vast majority of these calls that happened before January 6th.
They were all deleted, very, very intentionally deleted.
And so we don't, I don't know if Mike Johnson joined these calls before January 6th.
I know he was close to Garlow, but you can find the recordings now of some of the ones that have happened in the last two years, and that's where you see him on these calls.
So what his role in that interface before January 6th was, I'm not sure.
And this has continued to be an organizing space for this kind of Christian nationalist spiritual warfare and prayer mobilization, and he has been on there at least four or five times within the last year.
Listen, friends, right now, if you were part of those calls and downloaded them and now have seen the light and see them as a nefarious bit of anti-democratic mobilizing in our midst, and you want to talk, hey, I am here.
Please email me and Matt, and we'll both be in touch and would love to talk about those files.
So just going to put that out there.
All right, let's go home to Louisiana and let's talk about Mike Johnson in his home church, in places like Shreveport, Louisiana.
What does his New Apostolic Reformation connections, what do those look like there?
Yeah, let's talk about Louise, and I also want to come back to the prayer breakfast that wasn't a prayer breakfast, but we'll come back to that one.
So if you think back, if you listen to Charismatic Revival Fury, the last episode was about Dutch sheets.
Who's one of the major inter-era apostles.
I make the argument in that episode that Dutch Sheets did more than any other Christian leader alive to mobilize Christians to show up on January 6th.
He was, I think, head and shoulders above everyone else.
And Dutch Sheets has some very radical, crazy theology that is really using this colonial language that we've talked about.
And Dutch Sheets has his own networks.
Some of them are kind of the NAR networks of old, and some that he's built within the last decade or so.
And so these are networks of leaders.
And if you remember the story, Dutch Sheets took a group of these leaders, a group of these apostles and prophets, around all the swing states in that season between calling the election in 2020 and January 6th, barnstorming the swing states, doing these high-octane prophecy prayer meetings with hundreds of thousands of people watching them.
Using incredibly violent rhetoric and really pushing some of these ideas.
And the others, Dutch Sheets is the one who creates the appeal to heaven flag meme.
And Dutch Sheets also creates this idea, it's a kind of subset of NAR theology, focused around this Greek word ekklesia.
And so the term ecclesia, it's literally just assembly.
And usually, if you go to most Bible translations, ecclesia gets translated as church, right?
So we call theology about the church ecclesiology.
Well, Dutch Sheets changes the interpretation of ecclesia to mean not church, but mean governing assembly.
He says, he reinterprets the New Testament to say, actually, if you go back in Roman history, the Romans would use ekklesia to colonize other areas.
And they would send their citizens in to govern an area and change the culture into Roman culture.
And he says that is the model that Jesus wants when he uses the term ekklesia.
So this is where you get this idea of the church as a colonizing force to take over things.
So, one of Dutch Sheet's mentees, colleagues, it's a little bit unclear, is this pastor, apostle in Louisiana in Shreveport named Timothy Karskaden.
And Timothy Karskaden has signed on to Dutch Sheet's theology, participates in conferences with him, teaches alongside him, mimics the things that he says.
I found several clips of Mike Johnson visiting Timothy Karskadian's church.
It's in his district, but he has a very close relationship with Timothy Karskadian.
He invited Timothy Karskadian into his own signing-in ceremony in Washington, D.C., hangs out with Timothy Karskadian.
When he shows up at Timothy Karskadian's church, he is effusive in his praise of this man.
They seem to hang out socially.
They seem like they're pretty darn close.
I found a clip of Timothy Karskaten speaking to his church with Mike Johnson there ready to speak himself, and Timothy Karskaten starts using this Ecclesia theology, and he says, we are a governmental church, which in our terminology means we are a church that's meant to take over the government, that's trying to And he's saying this to Mike Johnson in front of his church.
And Mike Johnson has been hanging out with these folks, has been speaking at their churches, right?
And this is not like kind of arm's length.
to tell the world what to do.
We're supposed to tell the government what to do, right?
And he's saying this to Mike Johnson in front of his church.
And Mike Johnson has been hanging out with these folks, has been speaking at their churches, right?
And this is not like kind of arm's leg.
And Mike Johnson, his own church and his own background is Southern Baptist, right?
So what is he doing hanging out with these independent charismatic folks in Louisiana and using them seemingly as his major power base?
Well, it seems to have a lot to do with this kind of political alliance that he has with them.
So much.
Okay.
First of all, I am just so thankful to you because you're somebody who has committed to following these relationships.
Like I, as a scholar, was trained to read books.
I love reading books so much.
You're so good at being like, Hey, we got to follow Dutch sheets.
And then if we go here with, and it's just like dizzying, it's like the real housewives of independent charismatic Christianity.
Cause you have to follow all the relationships.
I'm so thankful that you do that because it's really important work, but it's dizzying to me as somebody who would rather just sit down and read about predestination or deconstruction, you know, in the Derridian sense or something.
All right.
With that said, we've got local ties in Louisiana.
We've got Mike Johnson participating in the Garlow Bramnick prayer network.
I think the evidence is there, so no need to prove it any further.
I'm sure more will come to light as time goes on.
I want to just zoom out now and sort of tie the threads together.
Many people will know from the articles they've read this week that Mike Johnson was a leading figure in wanting to overturn the 2020 election.
He was somebody who was working hard to see what could be done to make sure Trump never left office.
He talked about Georgia being rigged, so on and so forth.
In essence, one of the leading election deniers and election overthrowers, at least attempted, is now the Speaker of the House.
How does that all fit in to the New Apostolic Reformation and its ties to Christian Trumpism?
I mean, you've mentioned this.
Once again, you and I talked about it for hours on Charismatic Revival Fury, which I'll plug one more time in a second.
But can you tie those threads together?
How does January 6th, overturning the election, the New Apostolic Reformation, and Mike Johnson all go together?
It's a question I'm still puzzling out as well.
From what I can tell, it seems like Mike Johnson was much more involved on the political side of the effort to overturn the election.
I mean, his background as a constitutional lawyer, he was trying to kind of draft some of the memos and shape the arguments that were being used by Congress and by others to try to promote Trump's narrative, right?
I have not found him interfacing as much on the religious mobilization side.
The NAR folks were doing that.
Since January 6th, they seem to be working pretty closely together and seem to have built more relationships there.
Now, with the question of why, if you think back in American history, Baptists were always kind of a bad fit for government takeover.
Right, if you think back to Baptist history, right, the phrase separation, the wall of separation between church and state comes from a letter that Thomas Jefferson sent to a group of Baptists.
The Baptists were not the established churches in America early on.
The established churches were the Presbyterians and the Episcopalians and the Congregationalists, these folks who could shape and form governments because they had a lot of power back in Europe.
The Baptists didn't have a lot of power.
They were always arguing for religious freedom.
If you go and listen to some Baptists, even Southern Baptists like Russell Moore today, they still will very much frame things in terms of Baptist history and religious freedom.
And disestablishment benefits them.
So if you're a Baptist and you want to figure out how to forge a theology for government takeover, you're going to have a hard time finding resources for that in the Baptist tradition.
I think the mood of right-wing Christianity in America has shifted a lot in the last 15 years.
Really, I mean, starting with the election of Barack Obama, but very much accelerating in the last 15 years, and to the point where Christians' narrative is that they are, or at least right-wing Christians' narrative is that they are embattled, that they are losing the culture war, and that they need to take over everything, right?
And that's very different than what the religious right was saying even in the 1980s, 1990s, right?
And so the NAR, I think, has risen in prominence and risen in power because they are supplying the theology of that.
They are giving I'm going to use air quotes here.
They're giving biblical arguments for how to do this, right?
They're giving biblical arguments, and right, this is what that Dutch Ecclesia theology is doing.
They're saying, look, here is an evangelical way of interpreting the Bible that says we're supposed to take over everything.
I think for people like Johnson, he seems to gravitate to those things.
A lot of this also has to do practically With anti-abortion organizing.
If you look at Mike Johnson's career, that has been one of the brightest lines, is his utter conviction about abortion.
And I'm of a position that I'm okay with people having very conservative views on abortion.
I think democracy can handle people having even extreme views, as long as they're participating within democratic systems.
What worries me here is the undemocratic, extreme, politically extreme mobilizing and willingness to overturn the rules of democracy to enact that.
I think that's where you see the overlap.
The NAR has the theology of extreme government takeover, anti-democratic government takeover, and Mike Johnson has the will to do that.
And he's also a devout Christian and he can't find some of those resources within his own tradition, I would argue.
And so he's looking for places where he can find them and finding natural allies and even mentors in some of these NAR leaders.
I want to just point people to a podcast series that we produce here at Access Moody.
It's called Inform Your Resistance, and Episode 1 is a 45-minute discussion of abortion abolitionists who, as Matt just said, are really using anti-democratic approaches to their fight to end abortion in the country.
So you can see that at accessmoody.us.
You can look for that in our show notes.
But Inform Your Resistance, Episode 1 is all about that, and I would recommend that to you if you want to learn more about that.
All right, just to close, Matt, I mean, I think you've made the case pretty convincingly that Mike Johnson is somebody who's been inspired by, to say the least, New Apostolic Reformation theology and practice.
That means a sense of being a Christian colonizer, and it's hard to overstate how frightening that is, that he would be Speaker of the House, the leader of the lower legislative body of the United States, the head of the Republican Party in that body, and so on and so forth.
I want to ask you one more question, and I don't want to put you on the spot about Johnson himself or yourself, but I do want to ask about Israel and the New Apostolic Reformation, because there might be people wondering about that.
A lot of New Apostolic Reformation people are very invested in what I would call a fetishization of Israel.
A lot of Israeli flags, a lot of shofars.
Can you tell us about the New Apostolic Reformation and Israel just because of what is happening as we speak in Israel and Palestine, and if there's any indication of where that might lead Johnson policy-wise, etc.?
And if not, it's okay.
That may not be available, but just wondering.
Yeah, I can't speak specifically to Johnson and his view on Israel, but I can speak to the broader phenomenon of Christian Zionism and Messianic Judaism.
So Christian Zionism is just Christians supporting the state of Israel for theological reasons.
And there's very deep roots of that.
It goes back long ways, especially kind of coming out of the Reformation, some of the new eschatologies and eschatological conversations.
You really start to see these Christian-Zionist threads being woven into especially the Protestant theological tapestry.
But a lot of this shifts in the 1970s.
In 1967, you have the Six-Day War.
There's a surge in Christian Zionism among evangelicals that also happens at the same time as the Jesus People movement is going on, this revival.
A lot of ex-hippies, some contemporary hippies, kind of becoming Christians, and a number of Jewish people convert through the Jesus People revivals, and they wind up creating Messianic Judaism.
in the United States.
Messianic Judaism, right, this community that claims both a Christian and a Jewish identity, that most Christians accept as Christians and most Jews reject as Jews, that forms in the 1970s, that identity of Messianic Judaism, forms in this independent charismatic space.
And so Messianic Judaism is also part of the independent charismatic world.
And rabbis kind of operate with the same kind of celebrity culture that these NAR folks.
In fact, as the New Apostolic Reformation gets off the ground in the 1990s, a number of these Messianic leaders, Messianic apostles, Messianic rabbis attach themselves to the NAR.
In fact, I've got an academic paper coming out next year on some of the ties between Christian Zionism, Messianic Judaism, the NAR, and January 6th.
Talk about a wild combination.
But so these NAR folks are often closely in conversation with Messianic Judaism.
Sometimes some of the NAR leaders are Messianic Jews themselves.
And so there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's somewhere in this cross-pollination in terms of appropriation of shofars.
There's a lot of NAR leaders who will follow the Hebrew calendar.
And these are folks who do not see even one iota nuance.
The complexities of the Middle East of Israel-Palestine.
They are hard-charging pro-Israel all the way.
In fact, if you go on some of these NAR prophecy boards or listservs right now, it is straight-up talk of, this is God's war.
And God is behind this and virtually no empathy, sympathy, concern whatsoever for Palestinians.
And I work at an Institute for Islamic Christian Jewish Studies.
I have friends who are Jewish.
I have close friends who are Muslim.
I have friends who are from that area on both sides of this conflict.
And I feel incredibly deeply for everyone who's involved.
It has been an absolutely heartbreaking month.
But my worry is that some of these Christian Zionists, particularly these NAR types, are so gung-ho that they are a huge aggravating force in making things worse and worse over there because their investment in this is theological.
It is not about humanity.
As you said, cannot speak for Johnson on this, but that does give folks an indication of the kinds of theological waters that he is swimming in and what that might mean for how he is thinking about what is happening there.
So we'll just leave it there for now.
We're unfortunately out of time, could talk with you about this for hours, but I want to say two things.
One, friends, if you have not listened to Charismatic Revival Fury, do that now.
It is an eight-hour series all about the New Apostolic Reformation, and it's the most definitive guide available.
Right now.
And that is because Matt's book's not out yet.
So that podcast series is the most definitive guide to the New Apostolic Reformation out.
I will stand by that.
I think it is just illuminating and is available on our podcast feed.
So go check that out.
And then Matt, tell us about your book and where else people can find you before we jump.
So the book's title is The Violent Ticket by Force, the Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy.
It'll be published by Broadleaf Books.
It should be available for pre-order in early 2024, and it will be published in the fall of 2024.
So it'll come out a couple months before the election, but if you pre-order it, you should be able to get it even a few weeks before the official publication date.
That's great, and we'll make sure to link to your article about Johnson and the NAR from today in the show notes.
So friends, if you want to read that, that will be there.
I want to thank Matt for coming on on short notice to give us his insight.
You know, just all the illuminating research you do.
As always, friends, check our show notes for our Patreon, for everything we're doing at axismooney.us.
We're creating research-based podcasts to safeguard democracy against the kind of things we talked about today.
Extremism, religious nationalism, and so on.
We have a great series out called On God's Campus.
American Idols by Andrew Whitehead is still available, and it is perhaps the best primer on Christian nationalism available today.
