Brad speaks with Rebbecca Bratten Weiss, a reporter for US Catholic magazine and a contributor to the National Catholic Reporter. They revisit the issue of Trad Catholics. The discussion focuses on a number of troubling themes found in trad Catholic communities:
Anti-semitism
Militant patriarchy
A longing for the Confederacy
Xenophobia
One of the biggest takeaways from the interivew is that the longing for "traditional" worship services is often a repository for retrograde approaches to family, gender, sex, and social order. The problem isn't the Latin, but it's a good host for other troubling phenomena.
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Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
My name is Brad Odenishi, faculty at the University of San Francisco.
Our show is hosted in partnership with the Kapp Center, UCSB, and I'm joined today by a wonderful guest, and that is Rebecca Bratton Weiss, who is a digital editor for the U.S.
Catholic Magazine, a contributor to the National Catholic Reporter, is a freelance local reporter, is a poet who has published several works of poetry, and is just wrapping up a work of fiction on the themes that touches on the themes, among others, of fracking in Appalachia and Appalachian culture.
So I, first of all, thank you so much for being here, Rebecca.
I'm delighted to be able to join you.
And you are facing heavy winds there in the Midwest, and And so, and we're just going to do our best.
But if folks, if you hear delays or if you hear sort of kinks in the recording, we're doing our best to kind of fight some, some heavy winds.
I'll also just say, I'm like, I always just, I love writing myself, but I just, I'm just in awe of people who can like write in all of these various genres.
Like you're a poet.
You write like local stories.
You write these big national stories about Catholics, you know, themes and issues and wrapping up this, this like, you know, fiction work.
I don't know.
You're like a Renaissance person.
Do you feel that way?
Do you, when you wake up in the morning, does it feel like that?
Not when I wake up in the morning, sometimes in the evening.
I was homeschooled, and I was one of the original homeschool weirdos who was sitting under a tree writing poems while other people were watching television because we didn't have a television.
So that's the product of a countercultural upbringing.
Well, I'm sure there's times you wished you were not homeschooled, but you know, that at least is one, you know, that's a thing that came out of it and that's pretty amazing.
Well, today I want to talk to you about a lot of writing you've done about trad Catholics.
Some of you listening will know that we did an episode just a while back on some of these themes, but if I'm honest, I really thought we needed to dig back into them.
A lot of you wrote to me and I agreed that we needed to just kind of make sure we were unflinching in our kind of approach to these issues and make sure to talk about them in a way that really laid bare, I think, some of the dynamics that are really problematic about trad Catholic movements and traditional Catholic communities.
So, you've written so much about this and I want to start just by reading a little bit of what you've written and then ask you A couple of questions just to get us going about traditional Catholicism and its various facets.
You say, I was once a traditionalist and I support Pope Francis' motu proprio.
Nonetheless, I believe that restricting the liturgy was not the best way to deal with problems in traditionalist communities.
A more effective move would have been to put restrictions on the destructive behaviors and ideologies they promote.
The traditional Latin mass is not itself the problem.
The problem is that many traditionalist communities embrace and promote ideologies contrary to the gospel.
So, friends, if you're listening, you might remember from our episode a while back that traditional Catholics, in large part, are those who really attend parishes where the mass is in Latin in ways that harkens back to a time before Vatican II.
And there's a sense that they will say there's a more reverent atmosphere usually to the mass.
It's very high church and there's no guitars or tambourines or this kind of thing.
But you really sort of say that the issue is not with the mass being in Latin, it's with these traditionalist communities embracing ideologies contrary to the gospel.
So what are those problems if it is not the Latin mass?
Yeah, so I think the Latin mass is really beautiful, and I think it's just cool, this idea that you could attend a Catholic church in any country and everyone's going to be experiencing the same mass.
Of course, the downside of that is it's not in your everyday spoken language.
You get that sense of the transcendent, but there's also kind of a feeling like it's disconnected from the everyday.
But that's, as I said, not the problem.
What we find in a lot of these traditionalist communities is, first of all, they're very fundamentally hierarchical.
There's an obsession with obedience to authority, rules.
Patriarchal power structures are dominant.
And with that, we get the rigid gender roles, obsession with ideas about masculinity and femininity.
Women are encouraged to be submissive, dependent on their fathers and then on their husbands, obedient to males in their lives.
There is pressure for women not to go to college, pressure for women to marry very early, and then for families to have as many children as possible.
For listeners who aren't familiar, well, I think everyone knows that the Catholic Church is opposed to birth control.
But there is a thing called natural family planning, which some Catholics use.
And in traditionalist circles, even that can be frowned upon.
There's kind of a race to see who can have the most kids.
And this can be really debilitating for women's health.
It can be debilitating for child welfare.
You know, some people choose to have big families and it works great for them, and I'm all about that, but when it's not a choice, when it's a societal pressure, then you see some abuses happening.
Of course, there's demonization of anyone who violates these strict gender roles and hierarchies.
Especially, you know, the inevitable case when children from these large families end up identifying as LGBTQ.
And when I was a teacher for over 10 years in a very conservative Catholic university, I had many students who were experiencing this, were rejected by their families because of their queer identities.
Oh, and that goes along with just an overall kind of us against the world stance where, you know, whatever it is that the world's doing must automatically be bad.
We must retreat into these little silos, these bubbles, the Benedict option as Rod Dreher, one of these trad thinkers, although he's now Russian Orthodox, not trad.
This idea of disconnecting from the broader community and the world.
And so you have a real loss of a sense of civic responsibility.
And we saw that with the pandemic, where people just weren't going to pull their weight as far as keeping the world safe from a deadly virus.
And you end up with also the alternative narratives, alternative news, rejection of science, the embrace of conspiracy theories.
And then there's also this tendency towards nationalism and the militarism that accompanies that.
Part of this idea of tradition is the tradition of our nation and our people.
And this, as you can easily see, really sets them up to be prey to fascist ideologies.
And this has happened repeatedly.
Oh, it happened with the MAGA movement here in the United States.
And it's happened in Spain, and it happened in Portugal, and it happened in Italy.
It's happening in Hungary and Poland.
And I should also mention that these problems are not everywhere and they're not always going to be apparent.
And one reason is that a lot of trad Catholics are actually really nice people and they can be fun and they can be pleasant.
And you meet them and you're like, yeah, this isn't some weirdo on Twitter using hate speech.
This is a really nice person.
And some people in these communities are willing to turn a blind eye to the bad stuff because they're there for the good stuff.
Because they get a lot out of traditional European-style worship.
And then there's also traditionalist Catholics, kind of fringe traditionalists, who aren't right-wing, who some of them are far left.
And they oppose capitalism and they support liberation theology because, well, that's traditional.
And that's true.
It is traditional.
Nice, yeah.
Okay, so I just want to sort of sum up so much of what you just said and articulate it so wonderfully.
There's Latin Mass as a kind of repository, it seems to me, you know, that it's traditional, it harkens back to a time when people in these communities can tell that there was a kind of an unbroken chain of practice and Catholic identity and Catholic memory, Catholic ritual,
But that idea of a Latin mass is really something that is a repository for, as you've outlined, very rigid gender roles and an obsession with hierarchy and patriarchy, a sense of nationalism that can really turn quite sinister when it comes to fascist impulses or the MAGA movement.
And just other ways that the kind of sense of tradition is used to enforce rigid boundaries around the community.
One of the things you've written about and I think this might surprise people or it may not, I don't know, is that Part of what does happen in some trad Catholic communities is a kind of nostalgia for the Confederacy or an affection for it.
And I just would love it if you could maybe spend a minute helping us understand that.
What does the Confederacy have to do with being a traditional Catholic?
Yeah, that's so bizarre.
So when I was a student at Franciscan University, I had a professor who was actually one of our favorite professors because he was fun and very well read.
And he was a huge fan of the Confederacy and not at all abashed about admitting this because this was acceptable on that campus and still is.
And he told us a story about how when Jefferson Davis, who had been the president of the Confederacy, was imprisoned after they lost the war, a story about the Pope at the time sending him a crown of thorns as an act of commiseration.
So I contacted my brother yesterday.
My brother is, in fact, a military historian with a focus on the Civil War, and he was like, that story's not true.
There was a whole lot of complicated stuff going on there while the Catholic Church was itself trying to sort out its own stance on slavery.
The fact that they had to sort it out and that it wasn't obvious from the start is kind of a huge blot on our Catholic record.
But what that story does show is that Catholics wanted it to be true.
Catholics were identifying with the Confederacy and wanted to make an argument that identifying with the Confederacy was a proper Catholic thing to do.
So part of this, I think, has to do with this lost cause propaganda about the American South and the Confederate States as this aristocratic society where there's a hierarchical caste system and men are gentlemen and ladies are ladies and the slaves didn't actually have it bad.
They were cared for and many of them were actually brought to Christianity because of this.
And There's also a romanticization of what they perceive to be an agrarian culture, which I think, you know, if you have enslaved people who you've trafficked to doing all your farming for you, are you in an agrarian culture?
I don't think so.
But there's a real overlap between this Southern agrarian movement who are associated with the fugitive poets who are connected with The new formalists of English literature and who are connected with the distributist movement of people like G.K.
Chesterton and Hilary Bellock, both of whom were anti-Semitic and both of whom were anti-Black racists.
So it's it's complicated because Some, I think some trads would like to say, well, no, we were, we identify with the union.
We fought to free the enslaved people.
And so all of the black people today should be grateful to us.
Whereas others are identifying with this romanticized view of a aristocratic, hierarchical, agrarian, traditionalist culture I also wonder to what extent the traditionalist embrace of the Confederacy is just reaction.
If liberal, modern people say a thing is bad, then you have to say it's good.
There's a lot of that that goes on.
And that's why a lot of what comes out of these traditionalist groups is logically incoherent and ethically incoherent.
Because if you don't have an actual solid ideology and a consistent ethic, and a lot of what you're doing is just reacting to modernity, you're going to be reacting to a lot of different things.
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Once again, it sounds to me like this affection for the Confederacy is, it really comes out of like, if you're longing for tradition, and tradition is a sort of word that means to you the past, it means something that is timeless or bygone, you're locating that in a Latin mass, but you're really using the Latin mass to build out a vision of a hierarchical, patriarchal society.
I was just teaching about this yesterday and reading words that talk about, you know, God-ordained inequalities.
Right.
And everyone knowing their place in the social order and abiding by it.
And there's peace when that happens.
And it's it's it's tranquil.
Well, yeah, because there's a hierarchical like enforcement of like a social order where inequality is built in and seen as given by God.
So, of course, it's tranquil and peaceful, or at least from your perspective.
You just touched on something that I'd love to talk about next, which is the cultivation of anti-Semitism in Catholic spaces.
You did write about the Catholic thinker G.K.
Chesterton, and there's a lot of non-Catholics out there that love G.K.
Chesterton.
There's a lot of evangelicals.
There's a lot of Protestants that are really into G.K.
Chesterton.
You write about this issue.
Catholics who are drawn toward these new right ideologies tend to be traditionalists in their liturgical preference.
Many associate the tridentine mass of the Middle Ages with the social order they view as superior, Even if theirs is a comic book parody of the era, all noble kings, brave knights, and piously submissive women Actual medieval cultures were far more diverse and complex and in some respects more permissive than those who fetishized the Middle Ages could imagine.
So, the Middle Ages being a time when there were this hierarchy, there was this, you know, romantic types of knights and kings and piously submissive women.
But there's also, and I've just done enough of my medieval theology and history to know, Rampant, overwhelming, violent, disgusting anti-Semitism during the Middle Ages.
So once again, I'll just ask what is kind of a bland question, but what does being a Catholic have to do with being anti-Semitic?
Why would those two go together in any way?
I'm going to say something that a lot of Catholics don't want to admit, and that is that anti-Semitism is baked into the Catholic tradition, and that anti-Semitism was in fact invented by Catholics.
This is largely due originally to kind of early disputes over the Hebrew scriptures, which, you know, some, the Jews were going to read in one way, and this other sect of Jews who followed Jesus and their non-Jewish friends were going to read another way.
And Oh, if you follow this thread of discourse back to the church fathers, some of them have horrible things to say about Jewish people and about the Jewish practice.
So this is one of these cases where Yes, the Catholic Church was indeed anti-Semitic for a really long time.
So if you're pining for a past Catholicism, a traditional Catholicism, that just is part of the menu.
And it's something that Catholics need to acknowledge.
It's something that all Christians need to acknowledge.
It's something that I believe Catholics and Christians need to do penance for before any real interfaith dialogue can happen.
I should mention I'm ethnically Jewish myself, so I've been repeatedly attacked by traditionalist Catholics who focus on my Jewish origins and ethnicity as the reasons why I'm such a terrible person, and I embrace that.
With someone like Hilaria Bellock, who wrote a whole book about the problem of the Jews.
Of course, at this time, anti-Semitism gets a new twist put onto it by 19th century eugenics, and you get a whole different variation on anti-Semitism in things like the Nazi regime, but it wouldn't have been there if the Christian church hadn't invented it in the first place.
So for someone like Hilar Belak, who imagines this kind of romanticized, agrarian, hierarchical, peaceful society where everyone is unified because of belonging to the same people, belonging to the same culture, and belonging to the same religion, the Jewish people don't fit in.
Well, if you oppose pluralism and if you oppose globalism, you're automatically going to oppose Jews because Jews are global people.
We are a diaspora people and the Jewish people are not going to want to convert to Christianity for very many obvious reasons.
Jewish people have been forced to convert to Christianity.
Repeatedly.
So yeah, I think that if you're going to be a traditionalist Catholic, yes, you are going to be anti-Semitic.
That's something that needs to be weeded out.
Does this mean that all traditionalists are personally anti-Semitic?
Not at all.
I've met traditionalists who are very respectful of my Jewish heritage and Judaism as such.
Others have a kind of romanticized view of Judaism.
They like the Old Testament Jews, especially the ones who are fighting a lot.
They like King David or their version of King David.
They like the Maccabees.
They're really into that.
They think that the Orthodox Jews, the more traditionalist Jews, are the real Jews, whereas Reform Jews are less real.
They do tend sometimes to romanticize Israel, but not always.
Some of them are very anti-Israel.
And sometimes I've encountered this thing where you get the sense that there's good Jews and bad Jews, and the good Jews are the ones that the traditionalists and conservative Catholics can hang out with and can make anti-Semitic jokes around and will just laugh instead of taking offense.
Like, I remember being in the company of someone who was quoting Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic remarks at me as though I was supposed to agree with them.
Oh, I did not, obviously.
Well, first of all, thank you for laying all that out, and I think I also just appreciate your just unflinching honesty and analysis about it all.
I began my career really studying medieval theology and Christian history, and so coming back to this material and those stories and histories that you laid out, it's all very clear if you study that.
I mean, the anti-Semitism there, is invented, cultivated, fostered, and disseminated in Catholic Western Europe.
So just truly appreciate your comments there.
Want to just touch on one more big kind of theme here, and that is traditional Catholics will really Kind of give you the idea that what they really want is reverence and what they really want is a sense of awe and transcendence when they go to mass and for them to exist in a modern religious space in a warehouse with tambourines and guitars and a very relaxed kind of atmosphere.
It feels somehow like less sacred that the sense of gravitas is not there.
And I'll admit, and I'll just say, you know, look, when I was a religious person, I longed for that.
I, as a young man in his 20s, moved to the United Kingdom and then to France, and I still love going to those places and going to old churches.
And I often will just sit there and just, you know, just enjoy the space.
So I understand that longing for a space that is not commodified, is not Disney-fied, is not just sort of part of our normal landscape.
But you also point out that what's problematic in this idea of reverence is that the idea of reverence is really tied to a sense of Western European architecture and music.
And when somebody brings in worship styles from non-white cultures, from the global South, that use drums or folk styles or dancing, that it's like, oh, that's not reverent.
And that's not traditional.
And that's a major problem.
So would you mind untangling that for us?
That it seems that for you, the critique is not wanting reverence.
It's just not realizing that your sense of reverence is really ethnocentric and oftentimes incredibly xenophobic.
I mean, like you, I love going into old churches.
I think that the architecture there really is profoundly expressive of a sense of reverence, but also expansiveness and transcendence.
We long for that sense of transcendence.
We long for that sense of the divine as accessible to us, being drawn upwards and outwards.
But Christianity is also about the divine coming down to us and being in our midst in our worst and grossest moments.
And I think that the obsession with the singular white European form of religious expression, which, by the way, requires a lot of money and resources, that's only one side of the possible faith expressions, even within the context of simply white European religion.
Even within white European religion, there needs to be that sense of God present with the poor, with the masses, with the suffering.
And if you don't have that, do we really still have Christianity at all?
So that's one part of it.
And then the other part is that we're Having among these traditionalist Christians in general, really, this assumption that the way we express reverence must be the only way that reverence could possibly be expressed at all.
Whereas in many different cultures, you know, drums, dancing, different art forms, different music forms, and if it feels strange to us, if it feels irreverent to us, We should stop and ask ourselves whether we are having a profound aesthetic moment of judgment or whether we are just taking our prejudices and elevating them to the level of metaphysical truths.
And I think there is a lot of that that goes on.
This insularity, this fear of the other, and so people take their immediate reaction, their emotional response, and they turn that into an objective truth.
You see the same thing with the way people respond to LGBTQ issues.
Oh, this makes me uncomfortable.
Oh, this is different.
It must be bad.
And it's funny because they'll talk about a culture of relativism.
But they've got some major relativism going on right there.
But I think the other thing is that it's not just about the aesthetic forms that are particular to white Europeans who have the money to build giant cathedrals.
It's also about obedience, ritual, subservience, revering the correct authorities.
Who would be the priest and the father of the family.
And in some of these other liturgical expressions, we're celebrating radical equality, the radical equality of the gospel of Jesus, where differences are obliterated and anyone can become a spiritual leader and the last will be first and the first will be last.
And they're very uncomfortable with that, which is why, again, I ask myself, is this even Christianity they're practicing?
I have just so many thoughts.
First, I think you've really laid out clearly for people understanding it.
And this happens all the time.
It's something I try to teach about in my classes that you can take something that feels to you, in this case, as reverent or transcendent, and you just said it so perfectly, and you can elevate it to metaphysical truth, whereas in reality, it's a cultural conditioning.
It's something you grew up with, you've been taught is reverent or beautiful.
or wondrous and it feels that way to you and other things don't.
And so you judge them as not thinking that that's a timeless divine truth.
In reality, it's a cultural relativist sense of what is beautiful, wonderful, and so on.
I will just say quickly, I grew up, I'm Japanese American, my dad's in Hawaii, and we just don't wear shoes in the house.
Like we don't even like, you know, we're like Hawaiian folks listening will know we don't wear socks that often.
Like, you know, socks.
I hate wearing socks.
I, you know, if I'm on Maui with my uncles and like they're putting on socks, you know, someone's probably in jail or someone died or, you know, there's definitely going to be white people involved if they're if my uncles are putting on socks.
Right.
So I remember like becoming a professor and I got invited to this party and it was like an afternoon party.
And when I got there, I took my shoes off.
And we all sat down and I crossed my legs and everyone in the room, everyone else was, it was all white folks, they were all staring at my socks.
And they were, I know now what they were thinking, like, I can't believe this man is so rude.
He would take his shoes off and now we have to stare at his socks.
And I was thinking, I would never go into like a stranger's home and like wear my shoes.
I could not even imagine wearing shoes inside the house.
Anyway, maybe this is a dumb example, but it just points out that- Yeah, it's a great example.
The ways we construct what is respectful, what is reverent, what is something else.
A lot of trad Catholics will tell you, well, this is a growing movement.
And I guess I'll just ask you plainly, are trad Catholic parishes growing?
Is this a movement increasing in numbers?
Oh, this is such an ongoing debate because it seems to be hard for anyone to collect solid data on it.
Every tribe you meet will say that our parishes are packed and people are flocking to our masses.
Well, anyone who is a traditionalist will be flocking to their traditionalist mass because there aren't that many of them.
You have to travel far.
And back in my trad days, I did drive about an hour to go to my Latin Mass.
There was a time when I couldn't access a Latin Mass and so I walked 45 minutes to go to a Byzantine liturgy because I felt like that was more ritualistic and respectful.
Yeah.
So how many folks in the United States are attending these traditional Latin Masses?
Probably about 150,000.
about 150,000.
That's about 1% to 1.5% of all Sunday mass attendees in the United States.
A little under 500 churches in the United States offer at least one mass in Latin.
I I don't know whether that means just mass in Latin or mass in the old form, the Tridentine Rite, but that's about 4% of all the parishes in the United States.
Now, these parishes tend to be extremely active because people are going there because they want to.
It's not just, well, I guess I'm Catholic, I'll go to wherever there is.
And I Again, the attraction of the traditionalist community is real because people want community.
Because as I mentioned earlier, a lot of these folks are very nice and kind.
And if you are the type of person who will automatically be accepted into their community, then you can find yourself, you know, with wonderful supportive neighbors, friends for your children.
People who will get together and have picnics and parties with you.
And in this particular age where people are so isolated and cut off from community, of course that's an attraction.
But at the same time, so you know, people are flocking to that, as the trads like to say.
People are also flocking away from it because if you are LGBTQ, if you're a woman who doesn't want to get married, if you're a woman who can't have children in large numbers for whatever reason or doesn't want to for whatever reason, If you are disabled, if you are a person of color, there are a number of reasons why you might suddenly realize that you don't want to be there anymore.
And I know quite a few people my age and younger who came from these traditionalist families and left, and in fact left the church, left the Catholic Church, because their experiences were so toxic.
So are these communities growing?
Yeah, I think they're growing, but they're also shrinking at the same time.
Yeah, and I have heard that, so I spent a lot of my scholarly life in France with French Catholic folks, and I have French Catholic colleagues who are in this vein, and they have told me exactly what you just said.
Every time they open up a new parish, and it's traditionalist, it's in Latin, and so on, they're busting at the doors, right?
And you can't keep people away, but as you say, If there's only so many options and there's only so many places where that can happen and people are making this very intentional set of decisions to be part of this kind of community, that's different than the casual, I don't know what the right word is, but the casual mass attender who has, you know, I think of my wife's Polish Catholic family in the Northeast and they've been attending mass once a week The same place for 60 years.
They're not totally involved, right?
But you can count on them being there once a week.
They're not making an hour drive to go to someplace.
They're not there three, four days a week participating in programs.
So I think, anyway, I appreciate that.
Well, we're just about out of time.
I want to say just thank you again for kind of really, in many ways, I think, pulling some of the cover away from The rhetoric that we sometimes hear about traditionalist communities being just about wanting reverence and Latin and so on and so forth.
Would you mind telling us where people can link up with you, your work, your various forms of writing, everything from your local reporting, but all the way to the things you do online for the National Catholic Reporter and for U.S.
Catholic Magazine and so on?
You can find my published work at U.S.
Catholic and at the National Catholic Reporter.
I've also written for the Christian Century, a few other publications, and you can follow me on Twitter at prof underscore RBW.
I think that's my handle.
That's pathetic.
I'm on Twitter all the time and I don't remember what my handle is.
People will find you.
They can put in your name.
They'll find you.
I'm pretty findable.
Well, I appreciate that very much.
As always, friends, you can find us at Straight White JC.
You can find me at Bradley Onishi.
You can always use your help on PayPal and Patreon.
We have Venmo now, so we're at Straight White JC.
We'll be back later this week with It's in the Code, with the weekly roundup, and some other stuff.
But for now, I just want to say, as always, thanks for being here.
Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next time.
