Brad speaks with Zac Dayvis and Ashley McKinless, co-hosts of Jesuitical and editors at America Magazine, about why young Catholics are drawn to the Latin mass, the contours of traditional Catholicism, and the ways that right-wing politics and culture attach themselves to older forms of the liturgy.
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Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
My name is Brad Onishi, faculty at the University of San Francisco.
Our show is hosted in partnership with the Kapp Center, UCSB, and I'm back behind the mic with an amazing interview talking about something that I know a lot of you are interested in, a lot of you hear about, some of you have some experience with, and that is traditional Catholicism.
Some of you Twitter folks might see the words or the phrase Trad Catholics.
And so we're going to talk about that.
We're going to do that with two folks who are just really kind of the perfect people to do that with.
And that is Ashley McKinless, who is executive director at America Mag.
And the co-host of Jesuitical, along with Zach Davis, who is Associate Editor and Senior Director of Digital at America Mag, and the other host of Jesuitical.
So to Zach and Ashley, just first let me say thanks for coming on.
Thanks for being here.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, really excited to get into this.
I, as you know, am doing this podcast from a car, so everybody listening, just so you know, we're doing this on the fly today because of childcare shuffling and mother-in-laws visiting and people working from home and all that stuff.
So, it's a very glamorous life that we have at Straight White American Jesus, and this is just one more iteration.
Happy to be part of your glamorous life, Brad.
No, I'm sorry to bring you, I'm sorry to bring you down to my level.
I feel like you're just like, oh my god, what kind of, what have I gotten myself into?
Not at all, not at all.
Yeah.
Alright, so let's just talk about this.
Very, like, you know, basic things for y'all, things that are very kind of taken for granted, but if you can help us just to get going.
What's a working definition of trad Catholicism, traditional Catholicism?
You know, what are we talking about here?
You know, Zach, I'm wondering, do you want to jump in on this and just sort of help us have like a very simple idea of what this is as we talk today?
Sure.
As usual, I'll start and then leave it to Ashley to correct anything that I've either left out or stated incorrectly.
I'll start with saying Catholics, generally it's not super helpful to like make these distinctions in general.
We really, especially here in America, we try to shy away from talking about Catholics as like liberal or conservative or traditional or progressive and these types of things.
That said, Tradcaths, and a lot of people identify as Tradcaths, I'll say it's someone who May do a series of these things, right?
So they might attend a traditional Latin mass, right?
So this is a form of our liturgy, our mass, our worship service that existed before the Second Vatican Council.
So that's that's a major thing that took place in the Catholic Church and in the 1960s.
So church was in Latin.
Now it's in the vernacular.
So it's in English in the United States, English and Spanish and all kinds of languages.
They might attend the old form of the Mass.
They might hearken back to a time when Catholicism had a bit more either political power, so this could go even further back to, you know, Middle Ages, Medieval times.
They might, you know, pine for that sort of relationships and they feel like now they've lost some of that here in the in the U.S.
and in Western Europe and around the world.
But in general, it's sort of a difficult thing to describe, I think.
They're not really a monolith, but it is like sort of this amalgamation.
And so that's also distinct, I would say, from how traditional Catholics exist online, right?
So these are the people that you might encounter who have like knight Twitter avatars in Latin anonymous names that are kind of, they might be set of a cantist, which is you think that Pope Francis is not a valid Pope and there haven't been any valid Popes since Vatican II.
So there is like a pretty wide range, both in real life and online.
I don't know, Ashley, do you think I got that mostly correct?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
I think if people are familiar with Pope Francis, the current Pope,
Some people might see traditionalists as maybe in more opposition or tension with the current Pope with his emphasis on mercy, inclusiveness, and might pine for a time when we had someone like Pope Benedict who had more of a focus on, you know, policing doctrinal boundaries, making sure we had the correct beliefs, we weren't changing the fundamental tenets of the faith.
So a greater emphasis on that clarity, I think.
And then there's just like the cultural matters of you probably smoke a pipe, you probably drink GK Chesterton in your spare time.
Yeah.
And I'm glad you mentioned the Twitter thing because I do think that's kind of, at least among online people, the image they have is the anonymous crusader on Twitter.
But I don't think that's representative of traditional Catholics as a group in the United States.
You know, 20 percent of Americans are on Twitter.
I'd be surprised if They're a higher percentage of traditional Catholics on Twitter, so that's a small group.
And so, you know, who's a more traditional Catholic?
Like the mother who goes to a normal parish but uses natural family planning and has a large family?
Or this guy on Twitter who's fighting over the Latin mass?
Yeah.
Yeah, totally understand the difficulties with that moniker, traditional Catholicism, and why, you know, y'all would shy away from that at the magazine and in other places, and so totally understand that.
I do want to zero in on Vatican II just for a second, so I will say that I think some folks listening will have a kind of fuzzy understanding of what that is.
Others are Catholic, ex-Catholic, etc., and they will have a more nuanced view, but Could you just help us?
You know, Vatican II takes place in the mid-1960s.
It's just a massive event in the life of the Catholic Church.
What does that change on the ground?
You know, we can talk about all the doctrinal and all of the ecclesiastical and all the theological aspects of Vatican II, but I guess for me, if I'm a, as you mentioned there, Ashley, like that person, that mother who goes to her local parish, What did Vatican II change on the ground for somebody in Columbus, Ohio, or in San Antonio, Texas?
Yeah, so the major thing is what Zach mentioned, which is before the 1960s, they would go to They would go to Mass and it would be in Latin.
The priest would be facing away from the congregation.
You would go up to, when you received communion, you would kneel at an altar rail and receive it in the mouth instead of on your hands.
And so it was a liturgy that traditional Catholics would say is much more reverent and focused on the sacrifice of the Mass.
After Vatican II, which took place from 1962 to 1965, there was a pretty major revolution in the liturgy, so putting it into the vernacular and encouraging the active participation of lay Catholics in the Mass.
So, you know, hearing the readings, They were singing songs in their own language that, you know, sounded closer to what they might hear in the, like, wider popular culture.
So, you know, you start getting guitars at mass and drums.
Many of the churches that were built in the 70s and 80s also reflected, at least in the United States, the American aesthetics of that time.
So carpets, felt banners, that sort of thing.
Less of what we call the smells and bells, the bells and the incense that come with some forms of the mass.
So yeah, it became a more, I would say, familiar and reflective of the wider culture experience to be at mass and more of a focus on it as a shared meal, I would say.
Yeah.
I was just going to jump in.
One of the documents of Vatican II calls for explicitly full and active participation by all people in the mass, right?
So in the mass that Ashley's describing before Vatican II, you could show up and sort of, it would be happening without, you didn't have to be paying attention.
Yeah, you might be praying your rosary again.
In the background.
Yeah, totally.
And Vatican II is really calling for sort of like an active, intentional shift by the people in the pews to know what's going on.
So they had to understand it, but they also had to be paying attention to it and fully engaging with it.
And participating.
You know, you're going to have, before there were the only people who would be altar servers were people on the way to the priesthood.
And now in some places you had girls who are altar servers and lay people and women who are lectors and that sort of thing.
Yeah.
And I think also the, go ahead.
I would say the other thing I think Vatican II did is you sort of see this like opening up to the broader world and culture, right?
So it's a remarkable shift.
Opening the doors of the church is a remarkable shift ideologically than like the oath against modernism that we see at the early 20th century that's sort of like all this like democracy experimenting that's happening, evil, bad, and we see, you know, like the church Go become in favor of religious freedom.
We see like huge strides made in a religious dialogue, particularly with Jews.
And for a lot of people, that was sort of like capitulation and admitting defeat.
And for other people, it was a welcome breath of fresh air.
Yeah, because like, basically, the French Revolution, and even before that, the Reformation, the church had been in a kind of defensive crouch, like, you know, kicking out the heretics, policing its boundaries, and Vatican II was just a complete, not a complete 180, but an attempt to really look outward and see what good other religions and modern culture can can be retrieved by the church.
One of the things that I talk about with students in some of my courses is like the theologies of Karl Rahner and Bernard Lonergan, who really, you know, paved the way for, you know, Catholic approaches to seeing a lot of the sacred and a lot of the divine in other religious traditions.
And so, as you say, Vatican II really signals this sort of different relationship of the Catholic Church to the world and to other other faiths.
And so, I want to zero in, though, on the mass and the everyday experience of the Catholic person.
My wife comes from a working-class northeast town in Massachusetts.
She's Polish-American, a lot of Polish folks there, a lot of Irish folks there, a lot of Irish Catholics.
And she has these memories of the mass being in Latin.
And for her, it was miserable because, as you said, she couldn't understand anything, could not participate, and just could not really feel as if she was part of what was happening in worship at her parish.
However, a lot of what we talk about when we talk about traditional Catholicism, as slippery as that phrase is and that moniker is, is people who intentionally choose to attend a Latin Mass.
Like they are saying the Latin mass is more true to the church's true nature and true teaching and to how one should worship God and how the church should worship God.
Why would somebody do that?
If I don't speak Latin, if I have no idea what's being said and done, if I'm having a hard time following just because of the language difficulties, if I'm returning to what in essence is something that has a feel to it of being very old world, why would I if I'm returning to what in essence is something that has a And why is that something that even young people would say, yeah, that's what I want.
I don't want to go to a church with guitars and drums.
I don't want to go to a church where there's tambourines and people like, you know, singing in the front, men and women together and so on.
I want to go to this very traditional mass where everything's in Latin.
What's the draw?
I'll start because I was once one of those young people that intentionally sought out Latin Mass.
It's sort of otherworldly nature can be a sort of a reprieve for people that feel like, I mean, let's be honest here, there are a lot of parts of modern culture that kind of suck, right?
Whether it's consumerism or like, if you don't want church to feel like a TED Talk or a rock concert, and you feel like it should be maybe something deeper than that or different than that, you know, the first time I walked into I mean, it felt like I was part of an act of transcendence in a way that I hadn't really experienced yet.
people were speaking this language I didn't really understand, but like all intentionally focused on the same thing.
I mean, it felt like I was part of an act of transcendence in a way that I hadn't really experienced yet.
And so if you are feeling like the outside world is sort of constantly changing, And, you know, as a young person, I think in particular, when your world is constantly changing, getting into something that feels very solid, unchanging, but also beautiful, even if we might say that idea of beauty is a little like stuck in Baroque Western Europe.
It is nonetheless like something really moving for a lot of people.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
Yeah, no, so I did not have a trad cath, period, like Zach did.
But one thing that always strikes me about it is the kind of age gap in people who are attracted to this liturgy.
So, you know, my mom grew up Catholic.
She was born in the 50s.
So she remembers going to the Latin Mass.
And if you asked her, like, do you want to go back to that?
It would be a hard pass.
And I think that's the viewpoint of a lot of people who actually lived through, witnessed, grew up in the wake of the Second Vatican Council.
But then you do get younger people, people who became priests under John Paul II or Pope Benedict and who are more attracted to this liturgy.
And I do think you can see it as kind of shutting out the modern world and rejecting it.
But I understand the impulse to find something that feels solid, where you can reset, find your bearings, to encounter what is a very, can be a destabilizing world that feels Relativistic.
There's no truth there.
It's just, you know, who's powerful or who has influence.
And so, something that does stem from a very old tradition.
I can see the appeal of it, even if I don't go to a Latin Mass.
The church has this theological principle, to use some Latin on this podcast, Lex Aurendi, Lex Credendi, which is basically like the law of prayer is the law of belief, right?
And I think in the United States, in particular, Catholics have sort of defined themselves In opposition to their Protestant co-religionists as, you know, you guys change the faith, we are the unchanging faith.
Ours doesn't change at all, right?
And so once Vatican II changes the liturgy, it's like, okay, well, if my liturgy changes, does that also mean that my faith changes?
And then all of a sudden, I'm totally destabilized, and I don't really know what's up and what's down.
And so to be able to go back to that, I think, retrieves some of that sense of of certainty in your own self-identity that a lot of people, you mentioned like younger people being attracted to this, that is really attractive when your world is constantly in flux. - Zach, you wrote about this and your time taking part in Latin mass. you wrote about this and your time taking part in And I pulled a particularly poignant passage
You say, I found a lot of security in the very flawed idea that Catholicism is an ancient, unchanging faith.
This is the most ancient, unchanging way to live it out.
It took me some time and prodding and prayer to realize that this security wasn't in or from God, but rather about reassuring myself that I had an answer that I would never need to change, a very attractive prospect to someone.
Who's world feels in constant flux?
You know, one of the things that we say on this show all the time is that oftentimes returns to traditional or fundamentalist or just in some way old world forms of religiosity.
are oftentimes reactions to modernity, right?
They are modern forms of religion because they're reacting to everything that both of you just said about modernity and all of its uncertainty, all of its flux, and all of its change.
And I get it.
Just to link this to a lot of what we talk about on this show, when I think about the folks who I've known who have left evangelicalism, many of them are no longer religious, but many of them found their ways to very high church traditionalist forms of liturgical traditions, but many of them found their ways to very high church traditionalist forms of liturgical traditions, whether that be Catholicism, whether that be Orthodoxy, whether that be More often Anglicanism.
And so there is that impulse and I think it really is attractive.
And I want to I want to come back to maybe some of the issues that show themselves when people invest in these communities and some of the kind of things that come along with them.
But before we do that, Ashley, you your last trip before the pandemic was, you know, some people went to Hawaii and some people went on, you know, you went to Wyoming.
And truly, like a truly rural part of Wyoming, all of Wyoming is rural, but this is really out there.
And you went to a place called Wyoming Catholic College.
And this is really kind of, in some sense, perhaps a kind of emblem of young people who are choosing At least traditional forms of Catholic education, if not always traditional forms of Mass spoken in Latin.
Can you just tell us about Wyoming Catholic College really quick?
And we'd love to just spend a few minutes sort of talking about these young Catholics who attend this school.
Yeah, happy to.
So, as you mentioned, it's in very rural Wyoming, Lander, Wyoming.
It's a very small school, and they set out to create a school that has a classical liberal education.
So you can't get a business major here.
Basically, everyone is studying the classic texts from Plato onward and really engaging with source materials.
They are not allowed to have cell phones, so they're cut off in some way from the modern world in that way.
And the college also doesn't take money from the federal government in the form of student loans so that they can have their own rules that are in line with the Catholic faith They only hire people who are dedicated to transmitting that faith, which you often cannot get away with when you're accepting government money.
So I went out there just to see what was going on in Lander, and it was a fascinating experience.
The kids studying there were extremely bright, they were extremely curious, they were extremely pious, but I did not find them to be closed-minded.
They were open to being challenged.
But I will say they had much less interest in modern politics than in eternal truth and philosophy and things of that nature.
And I went to Mass on Sunday with them, and it wasn't in Latin, but it was a very reverent high church experience.
Most of the women were wearing veils, there was incense, there was Gregorian chant.
That sort of thing.
So those things, you know, this this traditional approach to education was was paired with a traditional Catholic faith, I would say.
I'm interested in this for a lot of reasons, and I really loved reading your work on this.
And one of them was because it really felt like kind of everything we just talked about, where, you know, if I'm choosing to go here as a 19 year old, I'm basically choosing to go to one of the most sort of Rural, furthest corners of the country.
I give up my cell phone when I start school there.
So I don't have a cell phone, you know, most of the year.
The school has a couple of hundred students.
It's not a big place.
And I'm basically saying, yeah, there's no media studies here.
There's no business studies.
I'm going to study Plato.
I'm going to study Homer.
I'm going to study Aristotle.
I'm going to study Thomas Aquinas.
And I'm really going to invest myself in what I take to be the classics.
And I guess I'm just wondering for both of you, Doesn't that sort of signify this maybe, in some sense, this sort of thrusting oneself into what feels like the unchanging?
You know, instead of focusing on 21st century philosophy or political science, I'm going to spend the time exclusively in Homer, Plato, Aristotle, not to mention the Church Fathers.
Augustine, and so forth.
There's a little bit of a kind of resonance, isn't there, with somebody who's saying, yeah, I'm going to go somewhere where there's no cell phones or television, only study books that are kind of 1,500 to 2,000 to 3,000 years old, and really try to find what is sacred.
And by sacred, I mean not touched by the modern world.
I mean, does that make sense to you?
Is that unfair?
Is that a kind of reflection of how you see the case of Wyoming Catholic College?
Or what did I miss there?
I would say that they see these ancient texts as extremely relevant to the modern world and understanding the modern world, and that only after steeping yourself in the philosophy and history that led up to the current American experiment are you really prepared.
To take on that world in whichever way you want to, whether that's as a teacher or as someone who does go into business or law.
And so I think, and I do see something similar to the Mass as a deep-rooted place to go to get your bearings, to know where you came from before you go out into the modern world and confront the challenges there.
And that's really the thing I worry about for a lot of these people is the reacclimation, right?
Because if you spend so long...
Not even just going back to source material, but I think there's this fundamental posture.
I don't think we talk enough about Reinhold Niebuhr, and he has this sort of categories of the way Christ relates to culture.
And I think this is Christ against culture, right?
So set in direct opposition to the modern world.
And if you sort of spend so long with that as your default position, when you have to go back out into the modern world, I think it's really tempting to be like, Oh, never mind.
I am going to build a log cabin and meet my trad wife and, you know, have 10 kids and just exist off the grid.
And maybe that is what God is calling some people to do, but I'm not sure that it's what he's calling all of us to do.
And I think where a lot of times we see a lot of like conflict within the church or the wider culture is when people argue about what is the more authentic way to be a Catholic.
I might push back a little bit on that as a characterization of Wyoming Catholic College in that, you know, I think they see the four years of undergraduate education as a privileged time where you have the luxury of studying and immersing yourself in this way.
With the full knowledge that at the end of it waits the real world So you can use that privileged time to go to frat parties and have not a care in the world or you could use that time to engage with Challenging ideas from the past and it's you know, they do also read modern modern texts so yeah, I I did not get the impression that they saw them as
Yes, maybe set apart from the culture for this four-year period, but I wouldn't say that that's how they would define themselves, against culture probably.
Yeah, and I would say, I just want to tell all these kids, you can do both.
You can go to frat parties and replay, I promise.
Speaking from experience.
Yeah, exactly.
Zach, a renaissance man.
So I think this will lead us maybe into kind of the final, you know, final set of topics for today and just zooming out on the Latin Mass and some of the liturgy wars that are happening and the debates over doctrine and liturgy in the Catholic Church.
But if I go back to Wyoming Catholic College, you know, so I totally understand.
And I used to actually teach in what was called the Great Books Program at Rhodes College.
And as I taught there, I was able to learn a lot from colleagues, but one of the things that we continue to run up against and Great Books programs all over the country run up against is, you know, for a lot of us in that program, we wanted to include Toni Morrison as part of the Great Books.
James Cone or, you know, Frederick Douglass.
And that was sort of seen as like, well, no, not great enough.
You know, there's reasons we're not going to read them.
You know, maybe it would be.
I mean, just to be honest, there was like a dearth of women writers in the curriculum when I taught in that Great Books program, and that was something I like tried to just work around all the time and sort of figure out how to like get past in terms of that.
So I guess when I think of that privilege of going to Wyoming Catholic College, I'm wondering if that just You know, I'm wondering if there's any, is there racial diversity at the college?
Is there any sense that, like, reading female authors, reading authors from the developing world or, you know, from perspectives that are not just sort of European and ancient in that sense, you know, is there any sense of the need for that or is that sort of something actively talked about as well?
We realize other people do that, but...
We kind of have our curriculum and we're pretty happy with it, you know?
Yeah, I definitely asked that question while I was there.
And there is an attempt to include more authors of color as well as women when they get into the more modern books.
And I would say on top of that, the seniors at the college Their final project is a very extensive thesis and oral presentation on an author of their choosing.
So I got to sit in on a few of those during my time there.
And the one that sticks out to me in my memory is, it was about Willa Cather.
She's a woman, a 20th century American author.
So there's freedom within at least your culminating project to look to more diverse authors.
But yeah, I think it is a fair criticism to say it is mostly dead white guys that they are reading.
And I guess this leads back to just sort of zooming out on this whole discussion of traditional Catholicism, the Latin Mass.
You know, I'll start with you, Zach.
You had a direct experience with this, and then yet you found yourself out of it.
You no longer kind of attend a parish that has the Latin Mass.
Other than the kind of theological conclusions that you drew, this sense that certainty and unchanging, a sense of the unchanging as sacred were things that you kind of, in some sense, grew out of or veered away from.
Are there other issues that people should be aware of when it comes to talking about the Latin Mass?
I guess what I'm getting at here is this is not just about Latin, is it?
I mean, when you go back to a Latin Mass, The impulse is to go back to other things?
Is that unfair?
Or what does that play when people are talking about going back to the Latin Mass or even a pre-Vatican to understanding of the liturgy?
I think it can be.
And one of the things I hope that listeners come away with is that I like to see this as there's a lot of like concentric overlapping circles in sort of the traditional Catholic world.
So you'll find a lot of That sense that, like, the world is changing too fast and you're losing power is also an ideological, like, feature that you've talked about, Brad, in your work of, you know, white Christian nationalism, right?
And so it's easy for people to kind of, like, maybe overlap in that circle, too.
But also within traditional Catholics, you're going to find A huge sort of dissatisfaction with capitalism, right?
And the world that capitalism has created.
So people, I think, are shocked to find these trad-caths that are talking about what the post-liberal order is going to look like, right?
So you'll find, like, trad-cath Marxists and... Distributists.
Distributists.
a separate concentric circle.
And then there's sort of the pro-life anti-abortion concentric circle where a lot of these people are, I would say, like politically aligned with Protestant evangelicals in achieving those ends.
And so there are parts of, you know, Latin mass, traditional Catholicism, whatever you want to call it, that sort of, I think, speak to things that are happening in the wider political moment.
But it's definitely worth like digging a little deeper and figuring out what exactly is going on, because then you're going to you know, like how to talk to someone about this.
Yeah, and I would just say it both is and isn't an accident that Vatican II happened in the 1960s, and a time of, you know, after two world wars, like, God has died, the culture is changing rapidly, and so for Catholics, it's very easy to do the, you know, the Correlation is causation when it comes to Vatican II and what has happened to the Catholic Church since then.
So priests and women religious leaving religious life and getting married.
Catholics becoming more supportive of abortion.
Just the general shift of the culture and so I can see why as a Catholic you you look to that in too and say well this is this is all the reform of the the we should blame the reform of the church on what has happened since the 60s and because we don't have the counterfactual of what the church would look like today if there had not been this major reform there's it's hard to push back and be like oh no It could be worse.
Yeah.
Yeah, I totally get it.
And there's so much fascinating stuff here.
I mean, for my money, I will always appreciate Karl Rahner.
Not always going to agree, as my students know, but will always appreciate, you know, the Karl Rahner and his work and his effect on Vatican II and many others.
I just I need to share this with y'all because it's just I don't get to talk about this on the show very much so I need to tell somebody I I spent a lot of time in France and all of my work before say 2014 was on philosophy of religion and and so a lot of my time was spent with the philosophers Jean-Luc Marion who's a who's a
French Catholic and Emanuel Falk and Emanuel Falk became a really good friend and they really represent this division because Jean-Luc is a traditional guy and he really sees along with Cardinal Luch de Jura and some others he really sees a need for France to return to a kind of the French Church I should say to a sense of
Kind of reconquering French culture and European culture, whereas Emmanuel is a new breed, and when I go to Mass with him, I always tell him I'm not Catholic, and he's like, just come, Bradley.
I'm like, okay, sounds good.
It's a very lively new community.
Guitars, tambourines, his kids wear shorts, the whole thing.
And they really, in my mind, represent everything kind of like that we were circling around today.
And I lived at the Jesuit seminary and monastery in Paris when I was there for a year.
And so I got to know all of the Many many priests and seminarians and got to discuss these things at length and it was It was it was just an incredible time in my life so I don't have to talk about that much on this show and people are always wondering how a non-catholic ended up at the Jesuit seminary in Paris, but there it is.
I'm doing a podcast in a car, so I do weird stuff.
That's how it happens.
You've really seen the both-and of Catholicism, or at least what I really like.
I was someone who was able to go through my trad phase and then come out of my trad phase, and I was still Catholic the whole time.
Not to give a commercial for my own religion, but that was what I appreciated about it.
Well, I'm going to give you one more wonky thing that everyone listening is like, please don't, but still, I'm going to do it.
Jean-Luc Marion is really coming from Balthazar and Barthes, and that lineage, theologically.
And Immanuel Foucault is really coming from Rahner.
You know, so many of the Vatican II kind of leading voices, and so he has a very particular reading of Thomas Aquinas, and he's very much, you know, a fan of the Greek fathers, and Jean-Luc is very invested in a certain reading of Aquinas and Augustine.
Anyway, blah blah blah.
I never get to talk about this stuff anymore, so there you go.
I apologize.
Yeah.
All right.
Where can people find you?
Where can they find the podcast, all of your work?
So Ashley, we'll start with you.
Where is the best way for folks to link up with you?
Yeah.
So we all live at AmericanMagazine.org.
That's where you can find the writing that we do.
And then Jesuitical, the podcast, can be found wherever you're listening to this podcast.
I'm on Twitter at AshleyMcInless, and the podcast is on Twitter at JesuiticalShow.
Yeah, I can't really add anything to that other than if there are people out there that are listening, Catholic or not, that kind of are interested in like a religious perspective on the modern world, those are the conversations that we're trying to have every week.
So if you're a fan of straight white American Jesus, I think you'd also be a fan of Jesuitical, and we'll see you over there.
Yeah, I agree, and I teach at the University of San Francisco, which some folks may or may not know is a Jesuit institution, and so I get to have great interface with Jesuit colleagues all the time, and I encourage you to read America Mag, check it out, and check out the pod.
For our money, you can see us at Straight White JC.
You can find me at Bradley Onishi.
I can always use your help on PayPal and Patreon.
That's in our link tree.
We have some events coming up.
So February 2nd this week.
I will be at the University of San Francisco talking about white Christian nationalism.
February 11th in Philly and then February 23rd back in the Bay Area at Santa Clara University talking about white Christian nationalism.
And so there'll be other events.
I have some stuff coming up in Santa Barbara and some other places.
But anyway, we as always are so thankful for y'all.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you for your support.
We will be back later this week with Dan's series and the weekly roundup.
