Robert Mason is a biblical scholar whose recent work focuses on Romans 13. This passage of the New Testament has been frequently used (and abused) by authority figures trying to manipulate their subjects into obeying the law. It was used by Jeff Sessions to justify separating migrant kids from their parents. It was used to justify slavery. And the Holocaust. And the divine right of kings. But, Mason argues, these defenses rely on a profound misunderstanding of the text--and are nothing more than misguided abuses by those in power.
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Welcome to Straight White American Jesus.
My name is Brad Onishi.
I'm faculty at the University of San Francisco.
Our show is hosted in partnership with the Kapp Center at UCSB, and we have a great guest today, and that is Robert Mason, who, a number of things to say.
First of all, just retired, so congratulations, Robert, on retirement, but taught at the California State University Northridge for a long time.
Also has the infamous designation of sharing an alma mater with me.
So we are both Azusa Pacific graduates and there's that.
Anyway, I'm going to jump into all of your stuff here in a minute, Robert, but let me just say, Hey, thanks for joining me.
I really appreciate it to be able to come on and talk about such an important topic.
So thank you very much for inviting me.
Well, and the topic you're referring to is some scholarship you've done.
You're a biblical scholar by training, and you've done a lot of work on Romans 13.
And a lot of folks listening will know that Romans 13 has gained a kind of infamous notoriety over the last couple of years, because Romans 13 is a passage that many politicians and leaders use to encourage, I'll say, people to quote-unquote obey the law.
So let me read just a little bit.
I just want to read some of it, Robert, before I jump into your work on this so people have the context.
Romans 13 comes at the tail end of the Book of Romans.
The Book of Romans is a long book, if you're not familiar with the New Testament.
And it is a very important book.
All of the New Testament is considered to be sacred by Christian people, but Romans is kind of one of those very important books.
It's a substantial book, and it's looked to quite often as a kind of foundational text.
Romans 13, 1 through 6 says, actually 1 through 7 says, "...let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there's no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God." Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad.
Do you wish to have no fear of the authority?
Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval.
For it is God's servant for your good.
But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain.
It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer.
Therefore, one must be subject not only because of wrath, but also because of conscience.
For the same reason, you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing.
Pay to all what is due them, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
All right, so, Robert, this passage has gained infamy because, among other people, back in a couple years ago, then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions defended the Trump administration's policy of separating immigrant children from their families by referencing this very passage.
He says, I would cite to you the Apostle Paul and his clear and wise command in Romans 13.
Then-Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders agreed with Jeff Sessions and said, it is a very biblical idea to enforce the law.
Now, you have just finished giving a great paper at the National Meeting of the American Academy of Religion on Romans 13, and you have, I think, scholarly take that is in somewhat disagreement, I'll put it, from Jeff Sessions and Sarah Sanders and others.
Let me start, though, by asking you this.
I just cited the Sessions quotes and all that, but Can you give us a brief history of the ways people have used Romans 13 as a kind of proof text for encouraging people, Christians, to obey the law and submitting to legal authority?
I mean, how has this kind of gone throughout history in terms of Romans 13's use?
Very good.
Yeah, so a brief history, because Romans 13 is such abused text that it has actually a deep history, but a brief history would be Probably way back in the Middle Ages, beginning of the Middle Ages, the concept of a divine right of kings was established.
And in that establishment, Romans 13 became a very important and integral text because it was a way for the lords to be able to control their serfdom, their serfs.
Let's fast forward to Martin Luther in the Reformation.
And the Reformation actually is an important pivotal point because some of the greats of the Reformation, the two of them, Martin Luther and John Calvin, actually came up on opposite sides of the interpretation.
So infamously, Martin Luther used Romans 13 in order to justify government violence in what has been called the Peasants' Revolt.
Whereas John Calvin believed that all governing authorities were ordained by God.
And so, if there is any resistance, the lower authorities actually have the mandate to resist the higher authorities.
Now, that becomes pivotal because when we come down to the American history, those two dichotomous views play themselves out time and time again in American cultural wars that That were instituted from the very foundation of our nation.
So, for instance, both sides of the American Revolution used Romans 13, where the loyalists used it to support obedience to the king.
The dissenters claimed Romans 13 in support of the view that only just authorities So there you have the two things set up.
And this continues to unfold throughout America's deep-seated cultural divisions throughout its history.
For instance, the debate over slavery is a case in point.
The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 sparked a heated debate where the defenders of slavery declared that slavery had a divine sanction.
And so here comes Romans 13.
All good citizens are required to aid in the return of runaway slaves.
Romans 13 was used to justify German Christian support of the Holocaust.
And, you know, we'll fast forward to today.
Presently, America's culture wars include religious differences that have not been abated.
And so you've already discussed Jeff Sessions.
We know that almost on any given Sunday, Any from the pulpit, any sermon that comes from the pulpit has this approach where Paul is addressing empire and is talking about supporting empire.
Now, this is where I hope my research can make a contribution because I think that both sides of the Roman 13 debate They both assume that Paul is talking about the Roman Empire authorities, and frankly, I think that assumption is not only wrong, but wrongheaded, and it has prevented readers from looking for a better context
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