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March 31, 2024 - Stew Peters Show
56:16
Battle Scars: Alleged VA and DOD Efforts to Combat Veteran Suicide
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Just recently, there was new information put out about numbers of suicides in the active duty military.
Well, here on this show, if we're talking about suicide, it doesn't matter if they're active duty or veteran.
They're all the same to us.
And so that's what prompted today's discussion.
Jason and I are going to have a discussion about veteran suicide and whether or not our government, our illustrious leadership...
Has taken maybe every effort to at least try out, try different ways to combat this issue.
So stick with us.
Don't go away.
We start now.
Hey everybody, welcome here to the next installment of the Richard Leonard Show. welcome here to the next installment of the Richard Leonard As usual, I want to thank you all for being here.
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And so let's get started.
Okay.
Before we go forward, let's bring on Jason, because apparently I'm struggling today.
So, Jason, there you are.
Help me out here, bro.
Apparently I'm struggling.
Yeah, what it is, struggle boss.
Yeah, man.
Holy Toledo.
Okay.
Suicide.
Today's topic.
Oh, and by the way, for everybody, I'd like to say Happy Easter.
Today is Easter.
He is risen.
He is risen.
There you go.
Suicide.
We've talked about it before on this show.
We talk about it in different circles, in different situations, in different places, and And it's been a constant topic of conversation here and there for many, many years.
Do you think, Jason, and this is kind of a preloaded question, folks, do you think that the government, whether it be Department of Defense or the VA, has tried everything that they can do To combat veteran suicide or active duty suicide.
And here's the thing.
Keep in mind that both of these organizations have spent millions and millions and millions of dollars on this fight.
And after many, many years, we're still reporting 22 a day.
So, do you think they've tried everything?
Likely not.
I know that's a limp swing, but, you know, I don't know, man.
It's frustrating because suicide is real.
I will say this, at least they haven't, you know, gone full Canadian and started creating veteran death tubes where you can decide you're having a bad day, show up, hop in the old suicide pod from Futurama.
You know, they haven't done that, so I guess, you know.
Whoa, whoa, hold on, hold on, hold on.
What is this?
Well, don't you know up in Canada, when you decide you want to check out, you can check yourself out now.
They have self-checkouts at the doctor, so I'd say they haven't done everything, but I'm obviously...
Being facetious and I'm talking about things right a bang, you know, so it was more of a joke there.
But on the left side of bang, you know, where we need to be living in a proactive, healthy society, the fact that veteran suicides have been this high is foolish.
It's very difficult for me to swallow understanding A number that high with very little movement on it, it's hard for me to ration this.
Well, and of course, I'm in agreement.
I would think that any problem that is this serious, that has been going on this long, that we've thrown this much money at, we've thrown this much expertise at, would have some type of result.
I don't know that I buy the idea that this is an unsolvable issue.
And so there has to be something out there.
And I also am not naive enough to know that we'll ever get that number to zero.
I don't know that that's possible.
No, but we can run a statistic norm to the rest of society.
Yes.
I mean, that would be my thing, but therein lies the question, right?
What other options are there for people that are having mental health issues that they're not getting?
I'm not saying they're not getting it from the VA, because let's be honest.
I would assume, and these are all hypothetical, that the likelihood that people that end up at that trajectory with that finality, they're likely not actively working on their problem, right?
Be it because of stigma, Other pressures that they face where they feel that they can't really discuss with it or deal with it.
You know, I would like to see what the metrics are of people that are actively being treated for depression through the VA and those that aren't actively being treated for depression at the VA or anxiety or PTSD or any of the other fancy words that they use to describe all the problems that we have.
Active treatment suicide versus inactive treatment suicide and see if there's a correlation there, right?
Because data has to drive decisions.
But, you know, in recent years, the VA has become very open to combining Eastern and Western philosophies on medicine.
I know I have been able to go see a chiropractor, which...
If this would have happened 15 years ago, I mean it did because I went and did it, but if it would have been something like on the forefront, I just think about all those good days I would have had.
I'm not sad or whining or playing the fiddle, but I bet there's a lot of people that would have had the ability to go see a chiropractor.
Their lives would have been a hell of a lot better than they are to this point.
And if this is something new to you and you are a veteran out there and you do suffer from some lumbar issues or any issues whatsoever, your legs, your pelvis, you'd be shocked what the chiropractor can do.
And so I would at least encourage you to go talk to your VA, either the clinic or wherever.
And attempt to at least get a referral and see if it'll give you a little relief because if you're being paid a couple of shekels for something like that, you and I both know that every one of us would trade that in for some pain relief.
So that's that.
Well, I'll tell you what.
I want to say back in 2009-ish, My physical therapist at the VA approved me for like 30 chiropractic visits.
So I went once a week for 30 weeks.
And it was very convenient because the place I was working, there was a chiropractor office right down the hallway.
And I'll tell you this.
That was the best I felt in a long time.
And I don't think I've felt that good since.
And in my opinion, chiropractic, it helps a lot.
And so you or others are probably going to ask, well, why the hell didn't you go back?
And the answer to that question is, I don't know.
I don't have a good reason.
Well, it's cost prohibitive.
It's not an inexpensive thing.
I mean, it's not the most expensive thing that you're going to spend your money on.
And just like anything, right, there's really good and really bad chiropractors.
So, you know, a lot of the things that I had heard over my life was, you know, they're all quacks and this, that, the other thing.
You know, and all of a sudden you have to go get adjusted once a week.
And, you know, I wasn't going to start traveling down that path, but...
I mean, well shit, let's talk about it.
I mean, I slept in my car and my garage for about six months because it was the only place that I had any type of relief where I could sleep.
I couldn't lie in bed, I couldn't do anything.
I didn't think the VA was the place to go, like they weren't going to fix anything anyway, and I thought if they would, they'd be talking about a surgery, right?
The old chop and fix.
And so it wasn't that I didn't think about the VA, it was just the fact that I didn't want to think about anything.
Like, I was just gonna struggle through the pain.
Which again, you know, back to the suicide thing, how often do we do this?
And the final straw, my father had come over, and I was laying on my floor with my feet up on the mantle of my fireplace, and I had pissed myself.
And the pain I didn't even know that I had done that and he looked at me and this is like a Saturday morning He's like yeah, you're gonna go you're gonna go meet my buddy doc enough is enough and he drug me in and I think when I finally went in it was the first time in At least five years at that point where I had any relief from from my back And so, again, this was me working well outside of my comfort zone because I didn't, you know, I didn't really subscribe to this.
You know, some guy's going to flip me around like a taco and beat the piss out of me and all of a sudden I'm going to feel better?
Okay, yeah, that's how that works.
And to my amazement, it is something that I've been active in pursuing.
Now it's minimal.
I'm not going once a week by any stretch.
In fact, I can go months on end without going.
But it's all about finding somebody that's really good at how they practice.
And so when I found out that the VA was willing to pay for that type of care, they did offer it.
I did take them up on the offer, not the full boat of what they had said they could give me, because I kind of knew on my, you know, what I really need.
And now I kind of look at it, and I'm like, well, the VA is actually really open-minded.
How could they parlay, you know, that big change?
Because we both know they didn't like chiropractors not that long ago.
Right.
And now you're changing lives when it comes to pain and, you know, discomfort that people are living, all that vats live in, if you're heavy-loaded or had a bad day in the country.
And so...
What other options are there for suicide?
I know you and I talked a little bit offline.
Let's talk about some of those.
Well, I'll tell you what.
The other night you and I had a conversation on the phone.
And I told you I get the mentality.
I don't condone it, but I get it.
And so...
Recently, I've been struggling with this new diagnosis, I guess you can call it, that's threatening my vision.
And the amount of medication that they've been giving me to try to...
It's like an intracranial hypertension deal for the people watching.
Jason knows all about it, of course, because he's the one that I vent to.
Sometimes I think maybe he rolls his eyes because I always got something to bitch about.
But...
They got me on all this medication to try to relieve the pressure in my brain so that it takes pressure off my optic nerves so I don't lose my sight.
And there are some surgical options that I'm considering, but I wanted to try this first before I have my skull cut open.
And...
I'm so sick of it.
I'm so sick of the way that the medication makes you feel.
You know, first of all, you've got to gorge yourself with food or you'll throw up.
Which, clearly, if you look at me, it's clear I haven't missed many meals in my day.
That's for sure.
But, like, the intense body aches and the tingly lips and fingers and toes.
I mean, there's a few side effects that after a week or two of constant this and that, like, I just...
The other night, Jason, I considered...
Getting up in the morning and driving myself to this specialist and saying, cut my skull open right now and do what you got.
Cut it in half.
Get full access to whatever it is you need and just fix it.
Because I'm fucking sick of it.
Excuse me.
And so, when we talk about suicide...
It made me...
This experience has made me think about exactly what you were just saying.
That...
Excuse me.
That guys get...
They get fed up with being in pain.
They get fed up with having to sleep in their car.
They get fed up with being tired all the time.
They get fed up with just being hurt.
Yeah.
And stumbling around.
And whatever the case may be.
And so, like, they...
And there's something about veterans, especially combat veterans, you know, the infantry guys and the scouts and the, you know, the dudes in the front line guys that have like this super shiny medallion of pride that hangs from their chest.
Where it's like, nah man, I'm not going to no doctor.
No?
I was born hard.
And I get it.
I completely understand.
But it's never any reason for you to consider taking your own life.
There's always got to be another thing to try.
There's always got to be another possible solution.
And so, you're right, man.
I think that there are quite a few other alternatives that we haven't tried.
And so, yes, we did talk about some offline.
What were they?
What was the one you brought up?
Oh, I think that one's got to be the last one because that's a big one.
Like, that's the biggest conversation to me, especially on a day like today.
But, you know, We know that they've experimented with some psychotropics, right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, you know, I would say...
You know, one of those things, too, that people don't understand if you're not, you know, if you're not former military or a veteran or have those types of experiences, you don't realize how hard you can actually play through the pain, right?
Like, we were programmed to do things that we normally couldn't do.
I could promise you when I went to basic training, if you'd have told me I could do 1,200 overhead hand claps.
Yeah, I'd call you a whorish liar.
Yeah, I could promise you when I left, I could do better than 1200.
Like, you know what I mean?
You could push your body further.
So, you know, we experience things that civilians will never understand because we are willing to take that much more pain, both physically and emotionally, than normal people will.
So that breaking point, if you will, if you're looking at a curve and, you know, how rigid or how, Limp the the stick is will determine when it breaks and I think as veterans we we have the most rigidly flexible branch on planet Earth which just means that we can push way past you know theoretically where where civilians can where we will deal with shit that nobody else would ever deal with but by the time we get to the breaking point it's just over.
And so, you know, in saying that, there almost has to be a differing approach to dealing with this veteran suicide thing, because you have to understand, by the time a veteran is to that point, boy, there's likely a bunch of underlying issues.
You know, it's...
The PACT Act is a wonderful thing.
It's great, but this was 15 years of people dealing with all of these problems stacked up together, and I'll speak from experience on this one, and say, you know, for 15 years, I'd be going into doctors, and I'm crazy, and they almost had to tell me, well, not almost, they actually physically told me, well, we'll have to put a needle and exercise and do a biopsy of your lung to see what's going on, and I'm like, well, Alright, F yourself.
You know, I'm not getting in that line either.
But I'm done coming in.
Like, I'm over it.
Alright, fine.
Alright, this is a cool pain.
Like, how do I offset this?
I know I'm not going to take, you know, Tylenol or some pharmaceuticals to get there.
So, you know...
You know, do you tend to a few more cocktails a day or whatever?
You know, I mean, we all make those determinations and decisions.
And so when things come up like this that justify, you know, how people have felt and they come up with a plan to deal with it, that's a wonderful thing.
But there's going to be those things that you just can't deal with.
There's no silver bullet.
And so, you know, could you use the psychedelics to bring people back down on another trip to rewire?
I don't know what, I've kind of heard it said different ways, and maybe you can clarify, but, you know, it's almost like a reset of how your body reacts and deals with pain and trauma.
It kind of brings you back to your original form.
I don't know if there's any truth to that.
What makes you think I'm the leading expert on psychedelics?
I don't know.
Well, between the two of us, I assume you've read more than I have on it, because you were the one that could actually say the word, and I will not say the word, because I would jack that one up.
Oh, you're talking about ayahuasca.
Bingo.
Well, you could say it, which makes you the expert in comparison to me.
Well, here's the thing.
Here's the thing.
You need to have things where you're going to get buy-in, right?
Mm-hmm.
I think one of the problems currently is that the treatment plans...
There's no treatment plan.
There's no treatment for anything that's going to work unless the patient or individual buys into it.
Right.
And so when we talk about suicide treatment or help or however you want to word it...
No.
If it's an activity that veterans aren't comfortable doing, they're not going to do it.
And because we wear this huge badge of pride on our chests, it's almost like it's an automatic no-meter, right?
Oh, hey, you know, it seems like you're struggling with suicide.
We have this place where you can go for 10...
Bing!
Nope, not doing that.
We're not going there.
I don't want that scarlet letter.
Right.
And so there has to be ways to reach these men and women that will get their buy-in.
And remember, I mean, in my opinion...
Suicide ideations are driven by pain, whether it's mental pain and anguish or physical pain and anguish, which all stems from trauma of some sort.
And so you have to be able to find a way for these folks to identify, one, what that trauma was and be able to get them to accept that it happened to them, which can be extremely difficult, I understand, depending on the event.
But then have a way or a thing or a place that they're going to buy into.
And so if something like psychedelics, you know, I think I know quite a few veterans that would be like, oh...
I could micro-dose mushrooms and it'll help my mind.
It'll help reset my mind.
I can feel better.
I don't have to think about the kids I had to kill or, you know, whatever it is.
I mean, and if that's how it works and then that's true and people have found success from that, Well, I think you're going to get a lot more buy-in than trying to send somebody to a rehab center where then they feel institutionalized.
And then, like you said, they leave there with a scarlet letter sewn onto their jacket forever.
In their minds, forever.
And don't get me wrong, I think that a lot of these recovery facilities, they do an excellent job for the people that agree to go there and participate.
Because I think there's a lot of power in self-recognition and finding your way on your own.
But the people we're talking about are the folks that did not want that option and weren't willing to go down that road.
Right.
And there seems to be no slowdown of those people, though, right?
Right.
So there's factors that come into play.
And again, if it's that duration of pain or that duration of lack of understanding, those things, they're not going to get better with time.
So you're not going to start to see any type of crescendo in these numbers.
They're not going to dwindle.
It's going to continually fester, and it's going to probably stay the same.
And I think the 22 number is total bullshit anyway.
There's no effing way.
Do you think it's higher?
It's gotta be.
Well, I mean, they were touting 22 a day, what, in like 2010, 2012?
Yeah.
You know, again, how do you come up with a metric?
What's the basis there?
And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, and how many don't they know about?
You know, I mean, I think it's a shy number.
But it's a striking number because it outpaces the civilian population by such a great factor that it shouldn't be ignored.
And so that's why I say, like, let's take all treatments and put them on the table.
I would be hesitant to say you wouldn't get a taker.
Let me paint you a picture, Richard.
Okay.
Let's see it, Picasso.
So they build like this facility to go microdosing the mushrooms or what's that other stuff called?
Ayahuasca.
Ayahuasca.
Whatever.
Which, hold on, which I hear is quite an amazing experience.
Sure.
Sounds great.
And folks, maybe for the clarity and the value of this show, maybe Jason and I will try it out and we'll report back.
But we'll talk about that later.
I will 100% not be a part of that.
This reality is hard enough.
I don't want to see the next one, right?
So you tell veterans who are in this position, hey, we got this place set up.
It's a getaway.
We're going to have people there just in case you have a freak out or something.
And you're going to kind of just go do your own thing.
And this is this pathway and what it looks like.
And Yeah, I don't know.
I mean, how long do those things take?
I mean, if you, you know, you're doing a...
Again, like, I just remember the college days and guys, you know, get a handful of mushrooms.
You know, split or whatever.
Is that a one-day deal?
A 12-hour deal?
What does that look like?
Not that I've...
Not that I'm admitting to ever doing mushrooms, but I believe, you know, a good trip is...
Four to six hours, maybe.
Okay, so it's a shorter period of time.
And maybe that's that microdosing thing, because I've read enough of that on people in Silicon Valley who use it like Adderall.
And so maybe it's like a long-term burn, or they decide it's got to be a 24-hour period where they do this to reset.
And you're just going to go get frogged out of your mind, watch some movies, do some stuff.
I don't know what that looks like.
But it has the potential to help.
You know?
What's the worst thing that happens?
It doesn't help and be like, oh yeah, I went and tripped my balls off for a weekend over at the, you know, the veteran trip facility.
I mean, what the hell would you even call it, you know?
The Frog Center.
Right?
And, you know, I do, I think, you know, especially for people that are struggling and that are that deep in the suck, you Why not?
I mean, I assume they're doing some stuff because I've seen some of those studies out there about it.
Where they talk about how that does help heal the trauma.
It allows you the opportunity to relive it.
You've talked about it, right?
Shit happens on the battlefield and you're told, suck it up.
You've got to drive on through the mission.
You've told the stories about scooping your buddy into a helmet.
So on and so forth.
The further you get in between that trauma and your reality, the more difficult it is.
Maybe it's the psychedelics that bring you back to that moment and allow you to process it.
Well, I think it gives you some kind of closure.
Yeah, because it makes either the unreal real or the past present.
And that's what I read when I was reading some of those articles.
That's the magic sauce, right?
Because, like we were talking about, the further you are away from the thing that happened, the more difficult it is to patch.
And certain things you're just not going to patch through traditional context.
You'll get weird.
Yeah, man.
And the longer you have to think about it, the more you come up with scenarios or ways that you could have changed your actions for a different outcome.
And...
You know, like you said, we talked on the show about it before.
You don't have time.
There's no time.
Because when your body gets blown up or legs shot off or takes a bullet in the head...
Either you get the hell out of there and find alternative cover, or you're going to be laying next to them.
Your head wounds might touch each other.
You're staring Cyclops at each other.
Taking the same flight home.
Yeah.
Or you move, and you fight, and you fight some more, and you fight some more, and hopefully when the battle is over, Your buddy's body is still there and it hasn't been decimated or hasn't been mutilated or whatever they do to these dead soldiers when they find them on the roads.
And you send them home in one piece to be buried in honors given as necessary.
I think you're right.
Maybe that's exactly what it's for.
To bring that past back to the present and then you're able to stop in the moment and get some closure on the whole thing.
Say goodbye.
Whatever that means for you.
But that's a really good point.
I never thought of that.
I like that.
So maybe we'll have to check out the Frog Center, see what it's about, and see if anybody's had some success there.
See if we can get some funding and go build one?
If it helps people, I'm all for checking it out.
The goal of this show and our little group of Hunyucks is to help people.
That's why we're here.
The best way I know how to help people is to do this, is to talk about things.
Not that I'm always right about anything, because I'm sure there's quite a few things I've been wrong about over the last 105 shows.
But...
At least we're talking about it, so correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's get it all right, let's talk about it, and then let's move on to the next topic.
So while you guys think about what I was wrong about in the last 31 minutes, we're going to take a break.
We'll be right back.
Hey folks, welcome here for the second half of the show.
Before we took a break, we were talking about...
The Frog Center.
Alternative treatments to veterans who may be suicidal.
Jason, you said that the last topic is the big one.
And so we're at the last topic.
What do you got for us?
Well, you know...
It's one of those things that's always a touchy subject when you bring it in, but it shouldn't be.
What are the two things that people tell us not to talk about?
Religion and politics.
Bingo.
Guess what the first two things you should talk to everybody about is?
Religion and politics?
Correct.
You get about 90% of your answer or any questions you would have answered knowing those two things, right?
Like how much bullshit can we get away from?
But I digress.
This is the thing that I think is...
This one is challenging.
This one would force government to be in a rather sticky wicket.
So that's why I think it's the least likely.
But you can't argue with results.
And I think as I've looked through, again, successful outcomes or metrics when it comes to dealing with trauma, things that come to the counseling side of the world, dealing with substance abuse, You will see that based upon, again, they're all differing metrics from business to business, but you have much more positive outcomes with faith-based healing.
Okay.
So, in what form, though?
Like, are you saying that...
Like, just picking a faith and attending services weekly and Bible studies and things like that?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
These are literal, like, treatment centers that deal with alcoholism, substance abuse.
But they're faith-based.
And so what they have is there's a component of reconnecting to your beliefs, right?
And I think that's something that probably people do struggle with more than anything else.
When you're in the military, when you're deployed, you have all the purpose and the reason for the season because you've got to be there for your buddy.
You've got to go do the job.
I'm not letting shit four come do it.
I'm going to go knock it out.
It's going to be me.
And, you know, when you depart, there's a certain part of that that goes away, and you get some of it from jobs or whatever.
But I certainly noticed that some of the strongest people I knew in the military had very deeply held religious beliefs.
And so it was something that, you know, when we started discussing this, I did pull up and I keep glancing over here because I like to pay attention to the, or actually have something to be able to To check, to speak more knowledgeably.
I can talk about friends of mine that have sought treatment through an organization in Minnesota called Teen Challenge.
And now I believe it's renamed Adult and Teen Challenge of Minnesota.
It is a Christian-based treatment facility where they do deal with counseling for trauma and things like that, but they mainly focus on substance abuse issues and bringing people through.
And they don't have, again, the published metrics, right?
Like how many people are truly able to battle those demons and live a normal life at the end of whatever their treatment course is?
They don't really talk about those, but they do talk about how many people have to come back.
And I think that's one of those things that you see when it comes to treatment and when it comes to mental health, that people will go in for a period of time, they think they have everything under control, and it turns out that they don't.
And so they have to come back in, right?
How many times have you heard somebody that, you know, falls off the wagon when it comes to drinking?
All the time.
Or starts using drugs again.
You know, they fall back into the suck.
What they were able to specifically talk about is the relapse numbers.
And their relapse numbers were considerably...
Lower than the other types of treatment centers.
And so, you know, being me, you know, I kind of look at it like they can't have better counselors, right?
They don't have better buildings.
They don't have better food.
They don't have better beds.
What is the component that's different?
And I think the, you know, obvious, it's obvious because the numbers don't lie.
Faith has a big component in that.
Interesting.
And so I think there would pose your really big challenge is how do you get big government to...
How can you put big government in a position where they're doing that?
I mean, we had chaplains.
So I don't think it's a real big push.
I think my last deployment, my chaplain was a rabbi out of New York.
Yeah.
He was awesome, dude.
He was one of the funniest dudes I had ever met.
I mean, he reminded me a lot of, what was that movie, Spaceballs?
Oh, yeah, Rick Moranis.
May the Schwartz be with you, that guy.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
He was that guy, and it was absolutely a wonderful fella.
That's not the particular religion that I follow, but it was kind of nice having that.
I don't know if you ever got that, being able to...
You know listen to the chaplain talk real quick as you're kind of bouncing out the gate to go do something gnarly maybe You know it kind of gives you gives you that added little shield and so You know, I think the ability would be there, but boy, who wants to be the congressperson that brings this up,
or a representative to run this out, or the bureaucrat to volley this out, that maybe that's something they can look at, you know, is outreaching and utilizing faith-based therapies for people that are really struggling.
You know, and maybe that's what they need.
Maybe they need to go reconnect to God.
Well, to answer your one question, I don't know that there is any member of Congress that has either the testicular or the varying fortitude to do that.
It was that same body that took any faith-based anything out of our school system and took it out of our government.
So...
And I think that that's a standard that they all subscribe to.
And so the tinfoil hat wearing Richard Leonard would say it's because they're all not purveyors of any faith that's good.
But I shouldn't say that because I don't know any of them personally.
But...
I think that it's also...
Here's the other part of it, man.
I think that this battle with suicide as it relates to military members and veterans has become a pretty big business.
Oh, yeah.
And anything that is providing good, ample lining of the pockets, so to speak...
It's not something that they really want to change.
And so, although I agree with you, I have been struggling with my faith since my first deployment.
There were things that really made me question a lot of things.
I guess I've been secretly, quietly working on that in my own mind over time.
But I definitely see value in it.
Whether or not it's something that I pick back up fully in my life or not remains yet to be seen.
But I definitely have seen value in it for a lot of people.
And so I don't think that it's a horrible idea.
But I don't think that it's something that our government is going to subscribe to.
I think that that's something that a group of people much like us Right.
Well, and maybe that's a thing, right?
Maybe that's something that we focus on in the real world is maybe connecting those organizations with people that are struggling.
I mean, we all hear the story.
We all know the people.
We don't know them by name, but we know they exist.
And maybe if you can connect a few of those partners and players outside of the system.
I know here in our city, remember that big old bridge they put in?
You know, they put a...
Because there was a risk now that people would commit suicide by jumping off that bridge.
And I listened to the city council talk about it, and they said, you know, if we had to spend a million dollars to have a phone out there so somebody could call and talk to somebody before they made that decision, like, that's the best million dollars we could ever spend.
Hmm.
Okay.
All right.
Oh, yeah.
Well, I mean...
Agree to disagree on that one.
You know, I mean, come on, small community, yada, yada, yada.
But, you know, I digress.
Yeah, if that's the political landscape where we're always going to talk about, we always have to save, like, how can you take something like that off the table?
You know, I don't think it's going to steal business from the VA. I don't think the VA really wants to be in that business.
You know, it's not the big business portion of it.
How many times did you have to change your provider at the VA? Oh, sure.
I don't know.
A lot?
Exactly.
No, that's not commonplace.
So it's clear they've got high turnover.
I'm sure those people, they hear some stories that...
You know, maybe a shrink is going to hear a few times in a lifetime and they hear it every day, day in and day out.
And that's got to be emotionally taxing.
So I don't think the VA wants that business.
And I don't think the VA has contacts outside of the VA where it's resourcing people out.
I've never heard of a third party referral out for mental health.
Have you?
Never.
Okay, so they are doing it in-house.
It's something they fully control.
And maybe that would be something where, hey, yeah, we're going to wade into some pretty tumultuous water here when it comes to that.
But ultimately, if one life can be saved, then it's worth it all, right?
That's what they say.
Well, that's what they say, but...
But their actions don't match up.
I would agree with that.
I would agree if we could knock one number off of that a day, if we could be at 21 veterans a day, I would consider that a win.
But the question is, when are we going for 20 a day?
And when are we going for 19?
And when are we going for 18?
And I don't know that for the government it's about anybody taking their business, but...
If veterans keep killing themselves at a clip of 22 a day, and that number, let's just say for conversation's sake, in five years that number is down to 11 veterans a day.
Because somebody decides to actually help these folks.
That's a whole lot less money that they're getting because they don't need as much resources because now we're only trying to save 11 veterans a day.
And so I don't agree with that logic either.
I think if you're going to spend $20 million at 22 veterans a day, we should spend $30 million at 11 because that's even that more important to get down to F and zero.
Right.
We'll get it down to statistical norms.
That's all we should ever ask.
It's fool-hearted to believe that you're gonna take something away from a societal average.
But you need to come in line.
You shouldn't have any part of people's mental health or physical health.
We shouldn't always be the outliers.
We know there are certain things that have happened to us that we're just not going to get away from, so we're not going to fit the mold.
But on a whole, when it comes to something like this, we have to get back in line.
And as long as you can get in line, then you've done everything you can.
You're not going to battle.
That's like zero car accidents a day.
I get so sorry.
Zero car deaths in Minnesota.
That's one of our big things.
You see it on the MnDOT sign.
It's like Well, okay, fine.
We're going to bubble wrap every car and put a 7 mile per hour speed limit zone on every fucking thing that we do?
You got nothing.
It's foolish.
You're not going to get to zero.
The accidents happen.
Cars have catastrophic failures.
They're going to catapult you into the ditch and c'est la vie.
That's the end of it, right?
So it's foolish, right?
So you set a mark or, you know, that'd be the worst thing.
They'd be like, you know, we are going to give veterans to zero.
Now we're going to spend every dollar that we can in every stupid way just to get there, which you know you're never going to get to.
It's foolish.
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
But the question is, who the hell's going to do it?
Who's going to take the reins and who's going to steer this horse?
Because what I will identify is that it's a big effing job.
And I'll tell you what, I would volunteer for it if I knew I had the support and I was able to at least have a staff of people that I could pay enough for them to stay engaged and And a facility, I would give it a shot.
I don't know what I'm doing.
I don't specialize in mental health care.
But damn, man.
I mean...
Something has to be done that's different.
Again, like we said earlier, there has to be something that these men and women will buy into or none of it's going to make a difference.
Right.
It's not going to.
You know, and so people talk about shit like gun control.
Well, it doesn't matter.
I mean, we talked about it last week, I think.
It doesn't matter if you take away veterans' ability to own a gun.
All you're going to do is piss them off and they're going to find them anyways.
But if the whole premise behind that is to reduce veteran suicide, that ain't the ticket, man.
No, that's never going to get you there.
If members of the military know, especially men and women who operate in the front...
They've been trained about how to take life without a gun.
And many people...
I mean, all you gotta do is know how to use the goo-goo, and you can figure out how to take your own life without a weapon.
Yeah.
It's a shoelace, for Christ's sake.
Right.
You know, and I know what you're saying.
You're saying, well, I'll go build up the business.
Well...
That's the unspoken little secret.
There are people out there that are doing this.
You don't need to recreate the wheel.
You don't need to build another widget.
Where are they?
The widgets are out there.
There's all sorts of places to get help outside of the VA. Maybe the VA just needs to look at those really hard cases and say, you know what?
We need to sort this out elsewhere.
We do a really good job on 98% of the people or 99.6%.
I don't know.
I'm just using dumb numbers, right?
Because we do know that if it's 22 a day, that's a small percentage, right?
It is a small percentage of the population of veterans that are doing it.
But if you have that few hard case situations, You know, there's certain things that I don't do because it's not what I do.
So if that project comes in, I just look at it.
Hey, this is a really cool project.
I'd love to have the opportunity to look at it.
But it's not something I do.
You know, you get to a certain point maybe with veterans where you have to move them on to a different system.
You have to bring them outside the VA to try to get, you know, a differing type of care to get them the help that they need.
You know, you can't bring a Chevy to a Maserati dealership.
Mm-hmm.
No comparison there, but if the mechanics are accustomed to working on particular types of cars, they're going to be super successful working on those cars.
And so there are other institutions out there that are much better...
Built to handle the hard cases.
You know, they know that that's what they do.
That's their speciality.
They don't, you know, they don't kind of take the rank and file.
They take the hard case.
They take the difficult situations.
And, you know, I don't know who those people are, but I can guarantee you this.
I won't be sleeping much tonight.
I'll be doing some research looking into it.
I'm going to throw off all my Google algorithms getting there because God knows what I'm going to be looking at here.
That will be full of Easter ham.
Oh, so full.
So happy.
No lasagna.
Well, I bet there's lasagna at Judy's house.
I don't know.
Oh, yeah?
Yeah?
Yeah, I forgot that conversation.
Hey, Judy.
Yep.
Hi, Judy.
Just for clarity, folks, Judy cooks lasagna for every holiday.
That's it.
No ham, no turkey.
Lasagna.
Every time.
Anyway, I digress.
Jason, we've reached your favorite point in the show.
We've got a few minutes left.
And so I did save enough time.
You can have a full minute here to give us your final thoughts.
So please look into your camera at all of our amazing viewers and give them your final thought on today's show.
All right.
Well, I'm getting more used to this.
At least I thought about it here in the last 10 seconds.
I knew you would.
So, you know, I'd say, number one, if you are a veteran out there struggling, you know, don't give up.
Yeah.
Know that there have to be places for you to go and there are places for you to go.
I'd say, reach out.
You know, I'm blessed to have Richard Leonard as a friend.
And so when my days are shy, I can give Richard a call and I can discuss with him things I probably wouldn't feel all that comfortable talking about with my wife.
And I encourage everybody out there, if you are starting to have a place, have a person to talk to.
For those of you that don't, and if you are at the end of the road, Dial 988.
It's a simple phone call anywhere in the country.
You can text message them.
You can do something.
And so if on this Easter season you're feeling so inclined, please reach out.
It is not a hit on your ego.
It is not a sign of weakness.
It is a sign of strength.
Get yourself there.
Absolutely.
I'm glad that you said that.
It is 100,000% a sign of strength.
And this is the first time in Richard Leonard's show history that my guest has completely taken my final thought right out of my mouth.
So congratulations, Jason.
Very well said.
Couldn't have said it any better myself.
But I guess I'll close with this.
I think that when we think about veteran or military suicide, it's a very grim topic.
It's a very grim thought.
The idea that men and women have fought so hard to defend this country...
And go through all that bullshit and make it home only to die by their own hands is a tragedy.
A tragedy that's avoidable.
And I would say that if there is to be one tiny sliver of a silver lining in any of it, it's that it should remind us as a country, as a group of people, I know I say it all the time, that sleep under this proverbial blanket of freedom.
What it costs.
It's not just the men and women we lost in combat.
It's not just the amount of money we spent per day in the war.
It's not about the equipment we left behind.
It's not about the collateral damage and the idea that we did or did not rebuild the country.
But this is a big cost to war.
War is ugly.
War is violent.
War is bloody.
And somebody has to do it.
Or everything that has ever been fought for or worked for is gone.
And people all over this country are not shy about About saying, well, you know, you joined the military, you're just a murderer for hire, and you're a pawn, and you're an idiot, and you're this and you're that.
Well, guess what, buddy?
If there wasn't a whole bunch of murderous pawns running around doing the government's will, you wouldn't be speaking English.
So, thank all those murderous pawns That you have what you have today.
And so today, on Easter, when we're thinking about who we've lost, and if we know anybody we've lost to suicide, celebrate them, because they deserve it.
But also remember that this is what war costs.
This is one of the biggest bills our country pays for fighting a war.
I mean, after all, we are the World War champions.
Undefeated.
But it didn't come without a cost.
And so, I'll leave you with that.
Chew on that with your ham.
Have a great evening.
Happy Easter.
Take care of yourselves.
And we'll see you all again next week.
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