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May 28, 2023 - Stew Peters Show
58:27
Unveiling the Silent Suffering: Veterans, PACT ACT, and Gulf War Syndrome
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Two weeks ago, we had our good friend Valerie Mullican on, and we had a discussion about Gulf War Syndrome.
Well Valerie had a whole lot of information that I had no idea about.
Things such as Gulf War is still going on, or at least was, until our cowardly Exville from Afghanistan.
So anyway, all that information got our friend Jason's Gears grinding, and he did some research.
We've had some conversations, so today we're going to extend that conversation just a little bit and see what we come up with.
So stick with us.
Don't go away.
We start now.
A hello, everybody, and welcome to the next episode of The Richard Leonard Show.
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Okay, so today, as I said in the intro, that we are going to extend our conversation about Gulf War Syndrome.
When Valerie was on a couple weeks ago, I gotta be honest, when the show was over, my mind was kind of blown because of some of the information that she put out and also some conversations that we had offline while we were not Shooting the show.
And it all made sense.
And at one point I had asked her if she had read my medical file because all the things she was saying that, you know, I bet you have this, I bet you have that.
It all makes sense as Gulf War Syndrome.
So let's find Mr.
Jason.
There he is.
Welcome, sir.
Hey, Richard.
How are you?
Well, I'm good.
I am waiting with bated breath.
To hear what it is that you have to tell us about why this conversation that Valerie and I had a couple weeks ago sparked this fire in your belly, so to speak.
And I know it's a fire because we've talked offline a little bit, but I'd like to try to save some of this for a genuine reaction.
So just let us have it.
So, what an interesting show.
She is a class act and a wealth of knowledge.
So much so, I wish I would have never listened to it.
Absolutely, without question.
Sometimes, living ignorance is bliss.
I was much better off 22 days ago than I am right now.
But in listening, I did do a little bit of reading.
And I thought there were a lot of unique characteristics and things that were happening in our current world with the PACT Act that seemed to have some pretty similar parallel lines drawn through.
Okay.
So, what is Gulf War Syndrome?
I mean, I know you can't really say specifically what it is, but is Gulf War Syndrome a thing that's specific to you or me?
Well, I didn't think so until we had the conversation with Valerie.
And to be honest, I'm not a thousand percent sure that the VA or the government as a whole has really put out what Gulf War Syndrome is.
I mean, you can find a list of symptoms anywhere.
Right.
Well, that's why it says syndrome.
It's not a specific thing.
If it were a disease or it had a specific line or channel that it seemed to live in more specifically, I think then it would be diagnosed as such.
But really, go for a syndrome is this very wide birth that or has a very wide birth that it seems to rhino its way through and affect people in different ways.
And the thing that really got me thinking when she was like, when she mentioned that, you know, really the, Operation Noble Eagle, which was what we were first mobilized under in 2002 to go into Iraq, that was an extenuation of 1991?
Did I listen to that correctly?
That's how I understood it, too.
So then my comment was, well, what about all this global war on terrorism and Operation Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom?
And according to what she said, and I have no reason to discount or dismiss what she says, well, her question to me was, where was the declaration of the end of war from the Gulf War?
Where is that?
Well, that's a good question.
Yeah, right?
Like the final mortgage payment?
Yeah.
And you're finally given that freedom from your partnership with the bank?
Yeah.
Well, so, but to answer your question, I don't know.
It was odd, right?
I mean, you had signing at the end of World War II on the, I don't remember the name of the ship, but certainly that was a pretty big deal.
It did signify the end of things.
You know, did you really have an end to Vietnam?
Not really.
It was kind of a quiet exit, but the funding was gone, so maybe that was the end.
But it was clear from 1991 to post-911, things sure fired up quick.
There wasn't a specific declaration.
I don't think I remember hearing one, you know, after the terrorist attacks.
It just kind of was this assumed position of fire.
We're going to go this direction and that direction.
And it kind of seemed like, you know, the Persian Gulf was the place to be.
And all of a sudden, we were in Afghanistan.
And then we slow rolled back to the old LZ and then made work there.
Yeah.
But yeah, it was just kind of like this slow roll.
And I don't really want to, you know, again, the politics aside of why we're there, I don't think you or I would ever exchange that time that we had, even though it gives us these great things to chat about.
It's about the syndrome.
It's the follow-on effect.
And so because there was that continuation of that war effort through Lack of better terminology, I started thinking about the 1991 Gulf War Syndrome that we heard about and then started to think about the things that, you know, I deal with on a regular basis that are very irritating to me in my day-to-day actions.
And I was like, holy shit, this is the same thing.
But how come in 1991 they started to attribute this to sarin gas?
And what happened in 2002 to, well, 2000, what, 2001 to 2002 when everything kicked off all over the place?
Mm-hmm.
I don't recall being hit with sarin gas.
I was never talking sarin gas.
There has to be something that has some type of continuity between those two places and times.
Could it be?
Could those things be, possibly...
Some of the crap that was injected into us at basic training, or the food we were given, or the water we were given, or just our surroundings.
I mean, for example, I know that when our unit went to JRTC at Fort Polk, Louisiana, the barracks that we stayed in had We have signs and papers all over every wall talking about how you can't sweep because there's asbestos.
Right?
Well, we're gonna house you in here.
Just don't sweep it.
All you can do is mop it.
But you can sleep in here.
You can sit on the floor and shine your boots and put your uniform together.
You can shower in here and walk on the floor with wet feet.
But do not sweep it.
And God forbid, don't lick the walls or anything like that.
And so, you know, all that stuff probably sounds silly.
But let's face it.
They knew right...
I mean, back then, they knew for sure that the place was probably not...
Good for anybody to be living in for any period of time.
I think we lived there for 14 days or something like that.
But they, the government, the proverbial they, I mean, I don't know about you, but I can remember walking through my second or third day of basic training with a butt cheek out, both shoulders exposed, and just walking down a line and getting stuck with needles and asking, well, what is this one?
What is this one?
Don't worry about it.
Keep going.
And I'm sure it's on your shot record or your record somewhere, but by that time, it's too late.
Yeah, but that wasn't the concern at the time.
The concern was, I'm starting off on this amazing adventure.
I don't care what you have to do.
You know, just...
Yeah.
Hop and go.
Nobody asked us.
Nobody told us what it was.
It's irrelevant.
You have to assume that everything is on the up and up.
But it's like this thing happened a few years ago that really makes you question a lot of those things.
Yeah.
I'd say.
I don't know.
It was a small hindrance on everybody's day, but it kind of got me thinking, is there a greater potential that maybe there's some ongoing effect from those types of inoculations that we were taking?
Well, I mean, it's certainly possible.
So let me ask you this.
In the things that you've read and a little bit that we know about Gulf War Syndrome, as it's related to the PACT Act, let's say, and the list of presumptive conditions, how similar are those lists of symptoms or conditions or whatever you want to call it?
So, if you're reading direct from military.com, certain rare lung cancers, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, functional gastrointestinal disorders, and undiagnosed illnesses.
Kind of a blanket statement, that last one, but it really gets into abnormal weight loss, fatigue, cardiovascular disease, muscle and joint pain, headaches, Skeletal issues, respiratory disorders, and sleep disturbances.
And now, if you read just the undiagnosed illnesses portion, that runs so similar to the PACT Act issues, doesn't it?
Well, yes, absolutely.
I mean, I think I just kind of lobbed you a softball there and you hit it out the park.
I bunted it towards first, but I think I ran it.
Well, so here's my question.
Here's my follow-up question then.
If these lists of things that have to do with Gulf War Syndrome are so dang similar to the PACT Act, well, you asked me, what's the one constant?
In soldiers from the early 90s to the soldiers that were serving all the way up until our cowardly withdrawal from Afghanistan.
What's the one constant?
I mean, other than the theater, right?
It was all Middle East.
But what else?
Our maintenance and care, right?
Yeah.
I would say.
Yeah.
There were a few hangovers or hangers-on that I deployed with the first time that were there in 91.
Certainly, they were in higher positions than they were the first time.
They talked about how far they went forward or what they didn't wait or things like that.
At that time, they were burning the oil fields and the Derricks were on fire.
And there were all sorts of weird exposures there, which I guess have some similarities to what we talk about with the burn pits.
Pretty similar, but I think we probably did a lot of burning of garbage in the forest in Vietnam.
I'm sure.
Well, I've seen videos.
I've got to assume.
It happened on a regular basis.
They didn't have a magic poop disappear button.
I mean, that could be something.
Yeah.
And so I think that was one of those things that I was trying to get into further was how were troops readied pre-Vietnam?
How were they readied pre-World War II? And there wasn't a lot for me to find out there, but certainly it looked like the list of shots that they took pre-World War II were Minimal, if anything.
It was almost like, here's your steroid, rock and roll.
Vietnam had some other things because we were becoming more apt at using vaccines to deal with those malaria issues and other communicable that you can inoculate yourself through with that severe exposure percentage that they were constantly inundated by in a jungle theater.
But I'm thinking in our conversations, we started looking at some of these shots that we were getting, and I don't remember, but what were some of the coatings used for those shots that we took?
Some of the coatings?
Yeah, what do they call them?
Well, you mean just like the smallpox?
Well, not the name, but it wasn't even experimental use, was it?
Oh, inoculations?
Yeah, we had all kinds of inoculations, and that's a good point.
I'm not a thousand percent sure, and I can't back it up with any concrete data, but I seem to remember a recent conversation where...
I was informed that there are still quite a few inoculations or vaccines or shots or treatments or whatever you want to call it that are given to U.S. service members upon entry into the service, so basic training, and even some when they are deploying to a forward area that is outside the U.S. that are still in experimental phases.
I wonder, you know, for example, in the early 2000s when we were being deployed to the Persian Gulf in the Middle East, things like the anthrax series of vaccines.
How safe was that thing?
And has that thing even been approved?
Well, I don't know, but I've got that t-shirt about 10 times over because I think it was a six-round series that you were supposed to take, and I'm pretty sure we all quit counting it like 12.
It was over.
Actually, I had a lieutenant that ended up eating one of his band-aids one time.
I was pretty worried that he had done some damage.
What?
Long story.
Don't pick your shot scabs when you're sleeping.
But nothing funnier than a lieutenant pop of smoke.
They put us up in a maintenance shelter out in Fort Carson, Colorado.
There were about 680 of us in a small armory Um, garage.
And so the lieutenants got, uh, or all the command leadership, um, got these super sweet spots in the, uh, the, the mop closet rooms where they were sleeping two to a mop closet room.
And I'll say, I won't say his name, but he came running out and, and he was screaming, I got this cab and he, Showed his teeth and the scab from the shot was right there on his teeth and the band-aid was still hanging out of his mouth.
It was something to see.
Uh, why, why did he, he did it in his sleep?
In his sleep.
And I think that was actually the smallpox.
Cause isn't that the one that they give us that's live?
And then they put the band on it and they're like, Hey, everything's fine.
Just don't touch it.
Look at it, smell it, see it, acknowledge its existence, you know, you know, for the next 24 to 48 hours and until it fully scabs over and then you're fine.
Yep.
Normal.
Yeah.
He, uh, I'm hopping to sleep.
It must have itched and pretty natural threw it in his mouth.
Okay, well, you know, I think we've got to move on, but I've got to just say that I don't know that it's natural that you pick scabs and automatically flick them in your gullet.
I don't know.
For me, that's not a thing.
Do what you do.
I never went to OCFs.
I never went to OCS. I don't know what they teach them.
Oh, maybe they do teach Scab Eating 101 there.
Who knows?
Do you think, Jason, that there is a possibility, and this may seem like a rhetorical question, knowing what we know now about the way things are going and our government and blah, blah, blah, Do you think that it's a possibility that this whole PACDAC thing,
because when the PACDAC came out and Jon Stewart was all over TV screaming his lungs out and all these other folks were testifying to Congress and putting up pictures and memes and videos and blah blah blah, that it was about our veterans being exposed to burn pits and toxic exposure due to living next to burn pits.
Do you think that there's a possibility that a part of that, because I believe that the burn pits were not good for us, that people are sick and will continue to show that they're going to be sick from being exposed, but there wasn't any talk about anything else other than the burn pits.
So is some of that smoke and mirrors maybe for what we are now learning, I think, is really Gulf War Syndrome because, as you pointed out, the PACT Act does cover veterans from the Gulf War all the way back to 1991.
Yeah.
But we didn't hear about any of that, I guess is my point.
When the PAC-TAC rolled out, we didn't hear anything about the illnesses and the syndromes or whatever you want to call it that we were seeing in the 90s and the early 2000s with all those veterans that served over there.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, I would say this.
Regardless of how the PACT Act came to be, if they needed the burn pits to be the thing that sold the populace on it, or they got legislators excited that allowed them to go and do the right thing, I'm all in.
Doesn't matter.
It covers.
Do I think it's probably the simplest thing to explain on the forefront rather than having to maybe acknowledge some of the dirty secrets or misfortunate things that happen based upon decisions?
Sure.
Whatever sells it.
If it were something where it specifically covered just that one little thing, not that that's a little thing, but just that one very specific thing that would be harder and more difficult to document and take care of, I think that would be a failure, but they opened it up wide.
So however you sell the Pontiac, I'm a buyer.
Okay.
Well, that makes sense.
I guess the one thing for me that's troubling about it, however, is that we went all these years, right, until the PACDAC came out last year.
We went all these years and without much discussion about it.
And maybe I'm being overly sensitive about it, but, you know, I think that it's very well known and documented that a large amount Of veterans and U.S. military personnel have done or did, if they have passed on, a lot of suffering for their service.
And, you know, I agree with you.
However you have to dress up the pig to get it sold to the people, right on.
I'm in.
A thousand percent.
And so maybe there's nothing else that can be done for those who have suffered through their whole life from their time of their service to present or whatever.
But it's frustrating to me that those conversations weren't being had the whole time because I also feel like the ones that were going through it and their supporters have been talking about it for years.
And so now...
Now it becomes an issue, and maybe it's an issue now more than it was before, just because of the amount of veterans we have in our communities now, the influx of veterans, because folks are getting out at alarming rates, you know, they kicked them out on COVID, they don't want to go back.
And so we have this whole, and maybe it's a whole other conversation, this whole thing about we can't afford it, we can't do this.
And so, I don't know, man, but it's kind of frustrating to me that all these men and women have suffered for so long, and there never was really conversation about it, or any action taken.
It seemed, maybe I'm wrong.
Well, I mean, I can tell you my personal experience in the end of 2008 is when I first went to the VA. Hadn't gone before then.
A lot of it was dealing with some respiratory issues and the fact that my anus turned into a half-sunk pair of Chinese handcuffs, which was rather unique and odd.
And so, you know, going in and actually talking about the things that were going on, I kind of felt a little kooky and weird.
I'm like, you know, I'm constantly having sinus infections.
I'm going to my regular doctor.
I'm getting this, I'm getting that, and I go in, and they're like, well, yeah, you know, they finally go through the chasm of finding what's wrong with me, and they're like, well, but...
So you have rhinitis or scinitis or whatever they called it in 2008, 9, whenever that was, and they just, well, that's the thing.
It's not really anything that we do anything for, so, you know, be on your way.
Well, fast forward to the packet.
All this stuff that I've been dealing with going to regular doctors, going to VA doctors, which between the two, I mean, I honestly had to be scared straight at one point where a doctor at the local clinic that I go to told me that if I came in for another sinus or chest infection, that they were going to have to put a 14-gauge needle into my chest to do a sampling to find out what was going wrong.
Well, if it was to fear me or to scare me and put the fear of God into me to not come and see him again, for sure.
But I don't understand, considering it was just for an antibiotic, why he would do that.
I think he had an honest concern.
But at that point, I put my hands up and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
I'm not going to go to a place where they're even going to talk about doing that just to get antibiotics prescribed.
Sadly, it was like once a month or more frequent than that.
Well, okay.
Well, first of all, I want to thank you for your colorful description using Chinese handcuffs.
How is this thing?
My butthole fell out.
Like, that's a weird thing.
Well, it is a weird thing, but, you know, it is what it is.
Not to...
God dang, that probably doesn't make you feel any better.
It is what it is, type thing.
But...
Oh shit, we run out of time.
We'll be right back, folks.
Stick with us.
We'll be back.
Our military age fighting males.
I want you to ponder that.
We'll be right back.
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Hey guys, welcome back here to the next segment of the show.
Before we ended the last segment, Jason, you got me.
I was left speechless.
I would say that many people close to me would say and tell you all that there isn't very many instances in which Richard is left speechless, but you did it, so congratulations.
I really appreciate your efforts there.
Sophie is now mine.
Absolutely.
And I will get you a trophy of some sort.
It might just be like an old pink mitten or something like that.
But I got you covered.
But I think where you were going with that is that through all of these things, whether it's Gulf War Syndrome, PACT Act things or stuff, we as a community, as the veteran culture community, We're only in for treatment for so long with little to no answers before we just kind of take up this mentality that, well, you know what?
If there were any answers, we would have got them by now.
I guess there is no treatment, there is no answer, there is no cure, there is no whatever.
So I'm just going to live out the rest of my days and I'll figure it out.
Right?
Is that kind of where you were going?
Yeah, well, I think that's kind of some of the...
A lot of us, guys and gals alike, we kind of get lulled into that rut where you go in a couple of times and maybe you don't have that continuity of care at the VA that you would at your regular doctors where you're just continually stymied by the process where just nothing seems to be happening.
And I think...
I like sharing those stories because I know I'm not the only one that's had these problems.
I know it for a fact.
Maybe I'm the one that's willing to say it in a manner or in a place like this to let other people know that, yeah, weird stuff is going to happen.
Don't stop.
Continue to go and deal with it because if you don't, It continually beats down on your, on your psyche.
And then that leads into more mental health issues and it's like, why am I not the, you know, I'm 44 years old and, and I don't have the body before you're 44 year old anymore.
There's no question about it.
I continually thought, oh no, this is just what it's like as you get older.
You know, your knees hurt constantly.
You've got to sleep with like a pregnancy pillow in between your leg.
Super normal stuff.
Like this is just the thing.
No, it's not.
So you need to go in and we need to have those numbers at the VA and we need to ensure that we're all getting care together because if we're not active participants in the VA system, they're not going to be active participants on the doctorate side.
Period.
Yeah, and so I think that that comes back full circle with, again, the conversation that Valerie and I had about veterans going to the VA. Even if you're a person that decides that you don't want to use it for your everyday or primary care,
it still is Valuable that you go and at least enroll and get at least one appointment under your belt because that is how our illustrious federal government rolls out funding for your particular area where you live.
It goes by enrollment numbers.
And, you know, on top of that, Jason, maybe it is...
It seems as though it is...
It's like trudging up a muddy hill, right?
Like you keep going and you keep going, and you're never getting the answers or the outcomes that you're seeking.
And for many of us, I know for me, sometimes all I want is, hey, we're not quite sure, but we're going to figure it out.
Because when you get those, hey, I don't know, you're going to have to come back next week so we can do some more tests.
How about you just be honest with me?
If I have some condition or whatever that is going to plague me for the rest of my life, I'd like to mentally prepare for that and figure out a way to not have that affect my day-to-day life as much as possible.
And so sometimes it feels like it's a lost cause, right?
And I'm sure with the things that you've been through that you've been there, But I'm glad that you're saying these things now because it is important that we go together collectively.
Not necessarily like go to the walk in there at the same time, but everybody go for care.
And keep fighting the fight.
And if it doesn't happen for us, hopefully it'll happen for the generation of veterans after us.
Or whatever.
But it is, I mean, it is extremely important that we do it.
You know, and I'll be the first one to admit, I don't go to the VA for all of my care any longer.
You know, I mean, I have...
I retired from the Army, so I have, you know, other insurance, but I do go there religiously for my mental health care and some other stuff.
But, I mean, it's just so important because your registering and your showing up there doesn't just help you, but it helps everybody else that may need the VA because they don't have another option.
Right.
And your numbers, our numbers add up.
They can only get information from the sampling of data that they get.
And sadly, I'm sorry, if you join the military, you are part of your data, right?
It doesn't matter if your data for the use of the big giant head over in the corner that's making decisions or the healthcare system itself or future generational warfare planning.
We're data.
But if we all participate in that data, the numbers start to swell and they start to make some sense.
If you're trying to extrapolate information from a very small sample size of people who are in a specific place at a specific time doing a specific thing with a specific pedigree, that very small number will never show what the problems are.
But if we have mass interaction with the VA, It helps them get better at helping all of us without a question.
Yeah, and I want to also go back because you did say something that I think is very important.
It is not possible, in my opinion, that you are the only one that is going through the things that you go through.
And so having an outlet Folks, is something that is extremely valuable, I think, because you're right, Jason.
All these things, they start to play on your psyche, which alters your mental health not in a good way.
And I get it, right?
Like, I was an infantry soldier.
I understand what the mentality is and that when we were in training at times and somebody sprains an ankle and the consensus of the group is, well, man, you got to get up.
We got to keep moving.
You got to do it.
You know, screw that sitting down and waiting for a medic.
Let's just go and finish the mission and get it done and do it the right way.
It's hard to let go of that.
And it's hard to view yourself in a different light and do things that are probably more for yourself now than they are for the team as it relates to your care.
But the interesting thing about all of it is that it always, in my mind, comes back to a team game, right?
Like, go and get your care, and by you doing that, you're helping out all the other veterans that may need care.
It's kind of just that snowball effect, you know what I mean?
100%.
I mean, I don't know if it was a stigma or if it was a reluctance based upon my own stupidity, but the sheer fact that I waited so long to go to the VA has energized me.
I remember when we first started talking more on your show about, like, get involved, go do something.
I've taken that after going to the VA, and we do hire a high percentage of veterans through our small company.
And I always ask everybody after they've onboarded and they're with the company and we're comfortable and we can have these conversations, you know, have you gone to the VA? You know, and for those that haven't, I'll pay you for the day.
Just go.
Go get in the system.
Go see.
Go make sure.
Go make sure that you're involved in it.
Because it is that important to me.
Because I know when I got involved in 2008, 2009, There were not many veterans in our area that had deployed that early to Iraq.
And so the information that they were able to get from me from these weird growth-like pomas that I had all over my torso and everywhere else, you know, those were probably fairly instrumental in anybody else down chain coming in to receive that treatment or to have them at least looked at.
I mean, don't get me wrong, the first time I went in, the doctor said, put on 15 to 20 pounds and they'll be less inconvenient.
What?
100%.
That was guidance I was given.
I had all these tumors and shit all over my trunk.
I looked like a cucumber from my nipples to my belly button.
I'm like, oh, this is kind of odd.
Fast forward to my second deployment and they were rubbing on my body armor and I said, I can't deal with this.
They were painful as hell.
And so I worked out a way with company command to go to the Franciscan Scamp To have them removed during my training prior to deployment the second time.
And so, you know, I mean, it's just weird stuff, but I'm not the only one.
I guarantee there's a multitude of people.
But that first time when I had that conversation with the doctor, he said, well, put on a little weight and that way they'll be insulated and they won't hurt.
That wasn't the right answer.
How is that a treatment plan?
You know, what else are you going to do?
You're not going to get them all taken out every day and everything else.
They're fairly benign, but sometimes, depending upon their location, they can rub.
You know, they rub on my ribcage.
These three that I had, actually, and this is an odd story, I was able to talk them into doing an outpatient treatment for something that they would typically keep you overnight for because the lipomas were very close to my diaphragm.
Well, that wasn't going to work because then I would have hit the highlight reel, which would have meant I would have been stuck behind.
Not happening.
So we worked out this.
We concocted this plan to make this happen.
And it actually worked out.
And I had my very good friend Nick remove my sutures when we were in Kuwait like four weeks later.
But I digress.
I had them removed when nobody else would let me do them because of the rubbing on my body armor.
But I guess if I wasn't wearing body armor, it wasn't that big of a deal.
So were they right?
No.
Were they wrong?
No.
You know, who's to say?
But the moral of the story is that you did what you had to do to deploy with your boys.
And how did that surgery go?
Did they get all the stuff out?
Well, I got those three.
Interesting.
And so let me ask you this, because now I'm intrigued, and this is kind of off-topic, folks, I understand, but I got to know, how were you able to talk these medical professionals into doing a surgery which requires anesthesia and all the other stuff and then not keep you overnight?
Because I wouldn't use anesthesia.
I asked them to do it with local anesthesia, so like a lidocaine.
But they told me that that would be unlikely based upon the depth and the location.
But I let them know, you know, what I had going on and why it was important and they were willing to do it and I think it's a teaching school down there at the Franciscan Scamp.
I think they're a subsidiary of Mayo.
So while I was on the trainer, got a bus ride out and they did their thing.
I was with it the whole time.
I got to actually look down and see these things getting ripped out and they were gross.
While you were cut open, you were watching this whole thing?
I was whistling the Army song because I wasn't exactly sure what to do through this entire thing.
In fact, the young fellow that was my ride, because I couldn't drive after that, of course, he didn't have a lot of words for me on the ride back.
I'm fairly certain he thought I was a psychopath.
Well, and maybe rightfully so, bro.
I mean, you laid on this table, cut wide open, and you were watching and whistling a song.
But see, here's the thing.
And it's a good teaching moment, I guess, is the right word.
These are the types of...
In my opinion, that's a selfless act, right?
And I can understand why you had that mentality and why you did what you did.
There was no way...
In hell that I would have let my team, my unit, but mainly my team, my core team of, you know, what was there, 14 of us or something like that.
There's no way that I would have been okay with them getting on a plane and going overseas to do our job without me.
So if I could have helped it, if I was in that position, I don't know that I would have done the same thing as you.
And I certainly wouldn't have been whistling the Army song.
I've probably been whistling something else.
But I think it's a good testament to the testicular fortitude of a lot of soldiers.
Most.
And this is why we fall into this rut that we were just talking about, about not going into the VA and not going to the doctor and after a couple times of not favorable answers just saying, screw it, I'll figure it out on my own.
Right.
And so maybe that's part of this disconnect that we often as veteran community feel with the civilian community.
Is that there's a lot of things going on in our world right now, in our communities, and just in the world as a whole.
And it's hard for me, anyway, it's hard for me sometimes to just kind of be engaged in some of the conversations about what's going on when it's just like, well, what are you guys complaining about?
You know, I mean, and again, that's probably another conversation for a whole other show.
We're here to talk about Gulf War Syndrome.
But, I mean, you've got to take these opportunities when they're presented.
So I commend you for that, although it's weird.
It might be weird, but I don't think any of us who have experienced that camaraderie, that team building, that reliance on other people, we never want to get pulled out of the fight.
We never want to get pulled out of the opportunity to be part of that thing.
And so it's such a natural thing for that to continue to follow us along.
And I think the further we are removed from our military service, you know, certainly some of the dust starts to settle.
We become more kind of comfortable with who we were pre-program versus post-program.
And maybe some of those things go away, but I don't really think, I think when you walk into a VA facility, It's kind of like that automatic recharge.
You know, it's like if you were hurt, like you were talking about the ankle incident, you're not going to sit call, period.
You know, when you walk in, you got the super pickle suit on.
You know, even though you're not wearing it to the VA, you know, you're looking around at all these other heroes that when you walk in, you know, they're missing a leg.
You know, they've got the oxygen tanks.
They've got all these other pieces like, oh, man.
I don't rank.
Like, this is, you know, oh, I've got this little, oh, sorry, I get this cough on a regular basis.
Big shit.
Like, no, that guy has got a problem.
Like, I'm coming in, I'm bellyaching about something pretty minimal.
And as we look at the Gulf War Syndrome, maybe it is something fairly systematic that's occurred that we should be looking at and dealing with.
But still, we still...
We look at ourselves through a different lens than we see others.
And so I think that's something that's super important, that as you're looking at these other people and what you believe them to be these heroic figures, understand that you too are, in one way, shape, or form, you're a pretty amazing human being that did something that not a lot of people are going to do in their life.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, that is kind of the whole idea of I guess selfless service, right?
Like you do things for a cause that's bigger than yourself.
And so I can completely relate walking into the VA back in, what was it, 2007 or 2008 and thinking to myself, there's absolutely zero reason for me to be here.
Right.
Especially when you see in the Minneapolis VA, there's a lot of really old dudes.
I don't know that they're World War II veterans, but they're veterans nonetheless.
And so you kind of just start wondering about what their story is.
And I find myself at times...
Looking at a particular guy or gal that's just sitting in the lobby, right?
Sitting across from me in the lobby waiting to see whoever they're waiting to see and kind of like fabricating this story based on what I see about what their experience may have been.
It's even more helpful if they're wearing a Vietnam veteran hat, because now you know they were in Vietnam, so you can kind of fabricate those details.
I was just thinking about this on Wednesday when I was at the VA hospital.
Your story is never better than the story that you fabricate for them.
100%.
Like you always see them as a more dedicated soldier or somebody that did more than you did or whatever it is.
And in the grand scheme of things, I think you would agree that it doesn't really, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.
Because I think it's all situational.
Just like when veterans say, yeah, well, I don't think I need to apply for disability and I don't need to go to the VA because there's other guys and gals that are in more need.
And I get that.
But my question to them usually is...
Okay, so let's assume that you're in a barracks, right, in Vietnam and you're a map maker.
Your whole job is to make maps for the units going out to do patrols.
And some dude with some stripes walks in and says, you pick up that rifle and you go stand that post and you do whatever you have to do to secure that place.
Would you do it?
And of course the answer more times than not is, well, absolutely.
Okay, well, if that's true, And you would do whatever you're asked and put your life on the line to do it in a forward area, then your service is no less than mine or mine no less than yours.
I think it's about intent, right?
If you intend on doing the right thing and doing it with honor, then I think we're all equal, right?
I mean, with the exception of those super-secret squirrel soldiers that...
I mean, man, they go through a lot of shit to get that title.
Couldn't even imagine.
Yeah, I don't know that I'd be willing to do it, you know?
So they are better men than I am, I think, for sure.
So, anyway, I'm glad that we ironed that out, Jason.
I mean, we're all just broken toys, right?
And it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter what you're, you know, going to the VA isn't about a disability rating.
It's about getting things dealt with.
If it just so happens that the byproduct of your involvement with the VA does end up giving you a disability rating, you know, I mean, number one, congratulations, you won the jackpot for getting screwed up.
Okay.
That's kind of a, I guess it's an okay byproduct, but it's certainly not the goal.
The goal is to get fixed.
The goal is to live a better life every day.
The goal is to live the same life that you would have lived outside of it, or to at least mitigate the symptoms of these problems to a point where you can live a regular life, you know, or a more regular life because nothing is ever perfect.
It doesn't matter if you're in the military or otherwise.
Yeah.
I agree.
We're not messed up because we're veterans.
We're messed up because we happen to be veterans.
I know that's the truth in my case because I'd be as messed up right now as I am without the military.
The difference is I don't breathe right.
My knees hurt.
My back hurts.
My butthole falls out.
I have a torso that looks like a cucumber.
All these fantastic fun things.
But I'd still be the same messed up guy I am right now.
Let's face it.
Yes.
Well, and again, wow.
But you know what?
Rightfully so.
I mean, I guess who is to say what makes anybody more messed up than the next guy, you know?
I don't know.
I don't know if there's...
What's the prerequisite for being messed up?
And so that kind of also plays back into the whole...
The whole idea, not idea, but the whole mindset of the veteran, right?
Just being the tough guy.
I'll just deal with it.
But anyway, we have about two minutes left in the segment.
I'd like to circle back to our original discussion piece, which was Gulf War Syndrome.
And the PACT Act, I don't know that you ever answered the question.
Do you believe that there are...
The whole idea of the PACT Act is somewhat a smoke-and-mirrors...
Maybe you did answer, but it's somewhat a smoke-and-mirrors operation to kind of take away from not necessarily Gulf War Syndrome, But all of the things that maybe we were given and the conditions we were put in, and if that's the case, why would the government not just say, hey, we put you in some screwed up spots and gave you some screwed up stuff.
Here's how we're going to fix it.
Well, and I think we did.
It was, you know, whatever it takes to sell that Pontiac.
But...
You know, is it truly the 91?
I think it picks up a lot of stuff from Vietnam with Agent Orange and all these other pieces.
I recently met a Vietnam veteran who was exposed to Agent Orange who had Very, very...
He had outpaced the likelihood that he was going to be here.
And he was recently hit with some pretty bad news.
And it looks like the exit is coming up for him sooner than later.
God willing, he's going to outkick the coverage once again because this happened one other time in his life.
But it still goes back to that same Gulf War Pact Act stuff.
It's these environmental contaminants that were placed in our way, but I do believe that there's a likelihood that there's a secondary, like a force multiplier as we called it, right?
In play, and maybe those are the things that regardless if they want to admit that that's what happened, and I'm not saying that they did, but if they acknowledged it up front, would it really make it any better?
It doesn't to me.
The fact that it's open, that it's there, that there's an opportunity for people to go in and get treatment and help, that's what counts.
And so we need to be active participants to go be part of it, otherwise it will go away.
So just so I'm understanding you correctly, the idea that there may be some treachery afoot or smoke and mirrors is irrelevant.
But the fact that there is the ability now with whatever new has come out, so PACT Act in this instance, is what is important.
And it's important that we as a community take advantage of it and use it.
Right.
Well, you can't spend your whole life looking for problems.
Sometimes you just have to see that solutions are being presented and walk through that door.
You can continually walk your way into the wall, but if they open up the door and you're still walking into the wall, that's your fault.
Roger that.
Very well said.
We'll be right back, folks.
Hey everybody, and welcome back to the last little segment of the show.
We got a few minutes left, but kind of what I wanted to touch on was...
Oh, and by the way, Jason was having some technical difficulties, but I think we got majority of the conversation that we wanted to have for the show accomplished.
And I think that it kind of took a dynamic turn, right?
We started to talk about the similarities in what is the perceived Gulf War Syndrome and the presumptive conditions on the PACT Act list.
And how they're like crazy similar.
And this idea...
That the powers that be have known about this for all those years in between the Gulf War and when the Iraq and Afghanistan war kicked off, the global war on terrorism, if you will.
There was a long time between there.
And so I guess the moral of the story is That we don't really know exactly what the cause of all this is.
Are burn pits hazardous to our health?
Yes.
Is heavy metal exposure hazardous to our health?
Yes.
All these things, all these symptoms and syndromes and diseases and illnesses and sicknesses and conditions and all this stuff is all exacerbated by those things.
But I think that there is a good question raised about whether or not any of these conditions that veterans over all these years, all these decades, that are still having similar issues as the generation before them,
The one constant is the vaccines, the inoculations, the procedures for maybe preparing food or preparing water to be drinkable or whatever it is.
And I realize that the initial Gulf War and the global war on terrorism, although can be considered the Gulf War as a whole, were in the same theater of operations.
I don't know that that is the only thing that would contribute to all of this stuff.
And the fact that our conversation turned back again to participating in VA care, I think is important to recognize and to reiterate why it is so important.
There are a lot of people in our community, in the veteran community that rely on the VA system for their care.
And I think it is my opinion that if we can just go and enroll and be counted, so to speak, to help our specific areas within this country be funded through the VA for Veteran Care, I think that that is a great service to do for each other.
But we also have to kind of abandon to a certain extent this mentality that we'll just figure it out and we'll tough our way through it.
Which is something that I completely signed on with for a long time and to a certain respect probably still do.
But I think that we're finding, as we are now getting older, Jason said he's 44, but he doesn't feel or move or sometimes doesn't even look like he's 44.
I mean, you should see him with his hat off, for Pete's sake.
There's more to the story.
And I think that we should be doing everything that we can to try to figure that out, even if it means that we don't get all the answers that we're looking for in this lifetime.
Because to me, the idea that the things that I'm going through, whether or not they get solved, but are being at least treated or documented or whatever you want to call it, It may help veterans of future generations.
And I think that that's part of the important piece of the information, for me anyway.
And so, again, this whole idea of, you know, there's not a lot of Veterans in this country, right?
I mean, our population is less than 4% of the country's population.
So it's pretty important that we do what we can to take care of each other.
And so I guess that's kind of my words for the day.
Do what you can to take care of each other.
Go enroll.
Seek treatment if you need it.
Don't just sit back and figure it out on your own.
If you can, great.
But if you're having trouble with it, absolutely go and do what you need to do to get taken care of.
As usual, I want to thank you all very much for joining us this Sunday evening.
Have a great night.
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