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Feb. 5, 2023 - Stew Peters Show

56:34

Should Veterans Use The VA Home Loan Program?

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	Two weeks ago, if you tuned in, you saw Jason, Allison and I having a conversation about veterans' financial stability.
	Housing, VA home loans.
	And we asked ourselves the question: Are veterans at an advantage or disadvantage with the VA home loan program?
	And I promised that we would bring you some more information.
	We found a couple statistics, and we're going to further that conversation today.
	So stick with us.
	Don't go away.
	We start now Hey folks and welcome here this evening for another episode of the Richard Leonard show I want to thank you for joining us.
	As always, I appreciate you watching.
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	Okay, as I said in the intro, Jason and I today are going to discuss again whether or not we believe that veterans are an advantage or disadvantage with the VA home loan program.
	We found a couple statistics about VA loans being defaulted and that kind of thing.
	And just to be clear, I am the kindergarten, the kindergarten student in this whole thing.
	Jason is the teacher.
	He's very knowledgeable.
	And so it's going to be really good to have him on and continue this conversation.
	So let me find him here.
	Jason, hi, how are you, sir?
	Good, and yourself?
	I'm doing all right.
	We're excited to have you back because we know that you're going to drop some knowledge, or at least drop some knowledge that's going to make us think.
	And so let's further on this conversation about financial stability for veterans and these programs.
	And maybe we shouldn't even just focus on the home loan program, but just veterans' financial literacy in general.
	But let's start with the home loan program.
	Are we at an advantage or disadvantage?
	Well, I think it's interesting after the GOAT trail we went down the last time, right?
	We started on one end of the field, went to the other end.
	I don't know, we got caught in a tree, maybe floating down a river.
	Squirrel!
	Yeah, I feel like we followed a piece of tinfoil across the field very quickly and really got nowhere.
	And so over the past couple of weeks, I've really been thinking about it.
	And if we start talking about the total ideology of financial literacy, certainly I'm not the person to talk to.
	But as far as thinking about a VA loan and if it's a A positive tool for people to use or a negative tool.
	I think it's like anything, right?
	It's how you're going to use it as a tool in your toolbox.
	So, can it be positive?
	Yes.
	Can it be to your detriment?
	Absolutely.
	And so, I think that's where our conversation goes, is between the two of us, you know, one of us can always play devil's advocate one way or the other, and I think that would be, you know, the next question.
	For you, Richard, have you had an experience with VA home loan, the process from start to finish, and did you notice any perils or potential problems?
	I have had a couple of experiences with the VA home loan process.
	One of them was refinancing the home I currently live in.
	And that process went pretty good.
	It was my wife and I together of course.
	Other than having to track down a whole bunch of documentation we never thought we'd have to find again.
	But the first experience I had buying my very first home, I bought it for $139,000.
	I didn't have great credit.
	I didn't have a whole lot of good credit history.
	I had just got back from my second deployment.
	I had went through a divorce.
	I didn't have a stellar job that paid me I had a really good wage.
	I had stable employment.
	But the problem that I ran into was with all that other information and finding a bank that was going to take a chance on me.
	So I had to use a mortgage broker and it seemed like her task was pretty large.
	But at the end of the day, it worked out.
	She found somebody to get to take a chance on me.
	And you know what the weirdest thing about it was that five months into owning that home, the mortgage was sold to Wells Fargo anyway.
	And Wells Fargo was one of those banks that wouldn't originally give me a loan for my home because of my discretions in the past.
	But what I found interesting was when I applied for my letter of eligibility from the VA, which is what you need to just get the process started.
	They want to know that the VA is going to back your loan.
	They backed me for like $360,000 or something like that, which I was not even close to being able to afford.
	There's no way possible.
	And so I'm thankful that the lady I was working with, because initially I'm like, hey, I'll buy something for $320,000.
	No problem.
	There were some nice homes back then for that amount of money.
	And she was like, I don't know, I think we should think about this and sat down and we went over my budget and what I make and what I spend and what I bring in via disability and my job and yada, yada, yada.
	And we really kind of reined in what my price range was.
	And I was lucky enough to find a pretty dang nice home for what I could afford.
	The lady that sold it to me We had other offers on the table that weren't VA that were better offers, from what I understand.
	But because her husband, who had passed away a year before, was a Navy veteran, she chose to sell the home to me because I was a veteran.
	So that was pretty awesome.
	And we had a...
	A relationship back and forth after that, you know, and I had the chance to thank her for that.
	She was, I don't know, in her late 70s or something.
	Really nice lady.
	But yeah, I was, had I not had the broker I had that was reigning me in, I probably would have been in a situation where I would have lost that house because I was fully intending on spending $320,000 and getting my baller game on.
	And it would have completely blown up in my face.
	Right.
	Well, and you said a couple of unique things there because for anybody that works in the world of real estate or deals with moving assets in real estate, VA loans typically do not get the green light go from a seller in a multiple offer situation.
	Yeah, I was very lucky from what I understood.
	You could not be more lucky.
	Unless somebody was selling specifically with a tailor on the front end that said, I'm only selling this to somebody with a VA qualified loan.
	That doesn't happen.
	I know there have been instances in my life that I've been very, very...
	Intimately aware of where people have pushed away from the VA offer to get something that's a little bit smoother, a little less clunky, a little faster closing.
	So you certainly had the one in a million.
	So in that exact story that you told me, It showed that they were willing to back that loan because of course it's only a financial backing of the loan product and so it still comes down to the underwriting of the bank to make that work.
	However, typically those numbers do run fairly close to one another.
	So you had like the worst of the worst where you could have been buried by a home and then you actually had the best of the best where you were actually chosen.
	As the one to own that asset just because of your VA loan.
	So that's pretty amazing.
	Those two things don't ever happen.
	Well, paint me lucky.
	And you know, here's the other thing.
	Knowing what I know now about home ownership...
	I would have been severely dead in the water because it's those little things about owning a home.
	For example, I came home from drill one weekend and found water in my basement, which had turned into mold.
	And so, like, that's an expensive thing to fix, or if your water heater goes out, or, you know, if the molding on your windows has become unattached and you're not sealed.
	I mean, there's just all those unforeseen things that can happen to a home that all play into cost of ownership, of owning a home.
	And I had rented in the past.
	I hadn't had apartments and things like that.
	But I'd never owned a home.
	And so those things, they escaped me.
	A thousand percent escaped me until I had to deal with them on my own.
	And so having a huge mortgage, along with having to take care of these things that popped up, It would have been, I'd have been back in my mom's basement had she had me or maybe who knows where.
	The recipe for disaster.
	Absolutely.
	So the question is, how is it possible For maybe that program to have some kind of attached conversation to it with veterans, especially when they're first time home buyers, to educate them on the things that can go wrong.
	Not necessarily that they'll listen to it, but having the information out there because I think that that would probably help veterans not walking themselves into a situation that they don't want to be in in the long run.
	Right.
	Well, and, you know, I mean, you bring up an interesting thing where, you know, could there be this place where people could go should they have interest in it?
	Could there be a mechanism put in place by lenders who are pursuing these particular products and say, hey, by the way, if we're going to do this, you have to do this two-hour online tutorial that's given by, you know, these folks.
	And they kind of talk about cost of ownership, whatever the case is.
	I don't know.
	Honestly, I find it hard to believe that it would truly move a ton of metrics outside of, you know, having a show like this that people could tune into if they actually enjoyed listening to a couple of dummies talk about things they have a very loose grasp on.
	But, you know, sometimes when you hear from people that have done the thing and failed the thing, they kind of tell you when to get out of the crash, right?
	Now is the time to egress the vehicle.
	Roll over, roll over, roll over.
	Correct, right?
	Unfortunately, it's not as simple as a rip on the seatbelt with a razor blade to get out of a bad house.
	Potentially, you're sunk, and you're sunk for quite some time.
	And so, you know, when you look at, from a pro's perspective on the VA loan, it's an absolute slam dunk if you are in a position where you would not otherwise...
	Have the ability to get the loan based upon your credit worthiness, your income requirements, your down payment availability.
	Maybe your credit score is kind of on the cusp because as we know in this day and age your credit worthiness and your federal score will drive your rates every day.
	They're going to put you in the best position and And quite frankly, that interest rate is the biggest thing that people don't really pay attention to.
	And I don't know about you, Richard, but my mom drove home like, don't have debt, don't do this and don't do that, which is absolutely smart.
	But I didn't really understand how powerful it was.
	Over time and what it could do.
	And now when you sit there and you think about it, I think if you laid out a couple of situations, like one of the scenarios that you and I talked about earlier, showing people how money work over time using the same thing.
	I think the last time we talked about cycle of poverty in that car.
	We did the same thing today about 40 minutes ago with a house.
	And in simple metrics, making no moves except for the first initial purchase versus somebody who moves three times in total, One person is sitting with about a $30,000 nest egg and no asset.
	And the other one is sitting with a $270,000 to $280,000 nest egg with $30,000 against asset.
	So potentially a $270,000 plus raw asset, maybe a $500,000 swing.
	Over two decisions.
	And realistically, at the end of the day, what did you have?
	Four walls and a roof to have your family under?
	Maybe a couple more square feet?
	So, you know, there's that play.
	But I think if you're looking at how many people you can get into the home ownership game, I think the VA loans are amazing.
	But I certainly believe if people understood a little bit more about the cost of ownership and all these other pieces, they could be more successful in home ownership.
	Well, and that brings up something I just thought about.
	You can't, Jason, you can't walk into a church With your fiancé and get married without taking some class about how to make your marriage successful.
	Why can't The government, the VA or the banks or whoever, maybe us sometime down the road, why isn't there something developed to let veterans know these are the pitfalls, these are the things to watch out for, if they so choose to take part?
	I think that would be a huge, huge help.
	To a lot of people because the question now that I have is how many veterans who are homeless or experiencing poverty were once in that cycle or in that game and were homeowners and had their family in a home but made those decisions to have a little bit of money but no asset and then lost it and now what?
	Now what do they have?
	We'll pick that question up in the next segment.
	Stick with us, folks.
	We'll be right back.
	Hey, folks.
	Welcome back here.
	When we ended the last segment, I posed a question.
	If I cannot walk into Elvis' love chapel without some kind of class or license that shows I can make my marriage work, especially knowing the divorce rate in this country, why can't I be at least offered an The ability to know the things that I don't know or at least be educated on the things that I don't know about home ownership to avoid losing it and being broke and possibly homeless once again.
	Jason.
	So number one, the government should not have you reading any type of documentation about getting married.
	Like what in the is even going on where they have any right to even have that discussion?
	Number one.
	Number two, on the financial side, I'm okay with the fact that it's kind of set up with legislation that says very specifically, here's how money needs to be lent across all forms and all fashions.
	Nobody's being discriminated upon.
	It's all based upon some very particular metrics that create that number.
	Now, I do think sometimes those metrics are incorrect.
	Because they are set too low where you start to expose a larger percentage of the portfolio to a potential default, which I think we talked about earlier.
	But I do think most banks do have some type of financial management materials available.
	No bank wants to take on a loser of a loan, right?
	Right.
	And so getting back to the topic too, on your first note, Again, I didn't even think about it, but you really had the trifecta in there because Wells Fargo didn't want to make your loan.
	Right.
	However, they would buy that paper once it was secured in a VA protected asset class.
	Yep, they did.
	That's pretty odd.
	I mean, it's smart because now you've got the protection of the VA on the backside of that particular piece of paper, and it allows some laterability with that loan and the cash that they have on hand.
	But when you think about how odd that is on its face, that, Richard, I am not going to be the one that can make this loan happen, yet fast forward, what did you say, five months?
	Yeah, it was less than a year, five, six months, yeah.
	Okay, so maybe five payments into a 360 payment cycle.
	Something changed where you're so magical they wanted to have your paper.
	Well, right.
	I mean, they would have had the backing of the VA anyway.
	Like, that wasn't in question.
	I had the letter in hand.
	But what I was told was, because of my credit history and the fact that I... Failed to pay my bills on time consistently.
	They weren't going to offer me a loan.
	But as you said, five or six payments into this loan, oh yeah, we'll buy it.
	Yeah, so somebody sold that loan, probably got paid a point and a half on the backside, and after about three years, Wells Fargo was finally making some money on your loan, but they didn't really make anything on it anyway, so it's all kind of a go roll.
	But, you know, the other side is asset to liability.
	I think a lot of us look at our home as our biggest asset, and we don't see it as a liability.
	We don't understand that it's something that continually costs us money.
	It does gain in value, but if you look at the entire nut, the dollars invested in the upkeep, the maintenance, the heating, the cooling, the repairs, the note, the taxes, the insurance, You are in a losing proposition if you're looking at this as your biggest asset, right?
	So this thing is great.
	So it's got to check a couple of other boxes.
	So maybe it's got to be big enough where your family doesn't need to take four vacations a year.
	You have some separate space.
	You can create some fun.
	You have a rec area.
	Whatever the case is, which kind of drives you into the homes that we own.
	And so sometimes I think those decisions are the ones that start to drive us into, you know, rougher positions where maybe we spend a little more money than we should thinking we're going to offset it through, you know, some crafty maneuvering by, you know, not buying those four caribou coffees a week or whatever it is.
	Right.
	Ultimately knowing within two weeks you're going to be sucking down those $8 ridiculous coffees.
	Mint conditions, yeah, yeah.
	Whatever the case is, and all of a sudden you're going to be living for that house.
	And so, you know, that's where I see, you know, the reason the loan can be a blessing and a curse all at the same time is because they have you right at that tipping point.
	You know, if you have enough cash in reserve or you have a good enough job where you can weather some tumultuous You're going to be okay.
	But when you're living right on the razor's edge, when you're on the 51-49% tipping point where every paycheck counts, every hour worked counts, everything counts towards something, if you even have the smallest ripple, That can create catastrophic consequences.
	And that's why you see default rates higher than statistical averages in VA loans.
	It's not the well-qualified VA loans that are foreclosing or going delinquent.
	It's the ones that are on the razor's edge.
	It's the ones that were given that opportunity.
	And I think you and I looked into that a little bit today, didn't we?
	Yes, we did.
	And I have the window closed.
	Do you recall, I believe the default rate was between 6% and 8% of VA loans.
	Yes.
	But what was interesting was in very quick research, and yes, I'm glancing at it, I'm looking at it, and I want to see the date that it was at.
	So, I don't know.
	It's copyrighted2023military.com.
	It's an article that talks about VA loans have the lowest foreclosure rate.
	So, if I were to read this and take this as the only information out there, they claim that VA guaranteed home loans have a foreclosure rate of 1.98%.
	Stating that they have enjoyed the lowest foreclosure rate for five years, even against prime loans.
	The prime loan rate is 2.47% default.
	That's on military.com.
	Now let's move over to somewhere.
	Military.com.
	Well, you know, military.com is not going to paint the military in a bad light, so of course they're going to probably fudge the numbers a little bit, is what I would imagine.
	Well, there's certain things.
	Fudging numbers is one thing, but being off by a factor of three is another.
	So going in here, so this is a January 21 serious delinquency rate for FHA and VA. They're quoting here that they are at the highest level since the Great Recession.
	So that would have been going back to the 2006-7-8 collapse, right?
	Yep.
	Prior to, if you were leading in, so we're going to use this demographic information against the one that we just heard on military.com.
	Now, this one is just going to October of 20.
	Prior to October of 20, conventional rates were around three-quarters of a percent that went into full-scale default and foreclosure, whereas the VA was a tick over 2%.
	So again, you're looking at something that's maybe a two and a half fold increase over conventional, which was claimed that the VA was the lowest.
	And at that time, an FHA loan was defaulting right around 5%.
	Now within six months going into, looks like quarter two of 20.
	Yeah, quarter two of 20.
	So this was kind of the first little tick into COVID. Yep.
	So we're now picking up that first six months of people not making payments.
	Conventional long-term default was at 3.1%.
	VA was at 6.1% and FHA. 11.7%.
	Now, that was quarter two of 20, and I'm sure things have not gotten that much better, and who knows how they're going to clean up all this paper and all this mess left aside.
	But when the talking points are that the rates of default are the best amongst all performing loans as a VA product, Is simply not factual.
	Well, yeah.
	Because you're taking more risk in your loan.
	And what you're doing is you're forcing banks to do it, which I think is, you know, like we talked about, it's not a great thing, but it is an amazing thing.
	That the federal government has realized that people coming out of the military, maybe you don't have, you know, a great job history because of, you know, maybe you're in the Guard and Reserve component, right?
	You got a couple of deployment cycles in you.
	So you've got breaks in employment.
	You've got all these other things going on.
	You lost that income in the time you were deployed.
	That doesn't really count towards your adult living.
	It doesn't even figure in.
	It doesn't factor in.
	end, you basically have a missing year of income in your history.
	And so that's something that's kind of a hit on you in the real world.
	So let's explore that real quickly.
	Let's explore that real quickly because I think that that is one of the biggest slaps in the face to the men and women who decide to serve this country.
	When you deploy, just so we're clear, When you deploy, if you're a reservist or a guard member, and let's just say your deployment is 16 months long, you spend 12 or 13 months in the box.
	You spend 12 or 13 months overseas, actually, in country.
	When you come home and apply for a VA loan and they look at your employment history, that year you were serving your country abroad does not count.
	It does not count as employment history.
	The money you made, which was tax-free, does not count as income.
	Right?
	So I don't know if that's the case now.
	But that was certainly a contributing factor to people, and I think when I first got back, maybe in 2006, 2007, when I first went to get my loan on my first home, I had this mulligan year and of course underwriting had nothing but, you know, it was a battle to explain it.
	So like we don't understand, what's this combat zone tax exclusion across the top of this?
	Like we've never seen this.
	Nobody understands this.
	You know, where were you in a penal colony?
	It's like, well, there was this thing going on over here.
	You know, I wasn't the first person to ever go anywhere.
	But, you know, at that time it was fairly new, I guess.
	And I had heard that there were ripples of that with certain underwriting requirements at particular institutions that persisted for many years beyond my experience.
	Now, do I think they've probably cleaned that up?
	You know, it really is a legislative piece.
	But I do believe that there is some flexibility, too, with underwriting.
	As people got more comfortable with, you know, what people that are in the reserve component have to do, how our lives fluctuate like that, that there was more comfort in it.
	But certainly it was something that was precluded from adding some value.
	So yeah, I know on my first appointment we came back and there were a lot of guys for the first time in their life, they had like between 30 and 50 grand in cash in a savings account.
	You know that shit was going to get spent on Red Bull and Whippets and everything stupid under the sun in the next six months because a lot of them were looking to go buy that starter home and they couldn't get a loan.
	No, this was...
	We're in our early 20s.
	I was in my mid-20s because I went in old.
	But in your early 20s, you got that 50 grand sitting there and you're actually thinking about doing a smart thing by putting a great chunk of this into a couple hundred thousand dollar asset to start your life off right.
	And literally, they're being shunned at the door because there was nothing they could do.
	You know, then I think, like, you and I, pretty like-minded, you get a door slammed once, you don't like that ping on the front of your nose, so you don't go check it again.
	Yeah, we'll find a different way.
	Which isn't always the most constructive way.
	But I think that that really plays into the...
	And maybe it's not as relevant anymore as you said before because the deployment tempo has slowed.
	We all know about the debacle and the asinine un-assing of Afghanistan.
	But I think that that plays into pretty good about how...
	But reservists have to navigate their lives and that type of sacrifice.
	And so maybe we can touch on that when we come back for the next segment.
	Stay tuned, folks.
	Stick with us.
	We'll be right back.
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	Hey, folks, welcome back here for the third segment of the show.
	Jason, I have a question for you, sir.
	Yes, sir.
	In the statistics that you came across and the things that you read, and based on your knowledge of the home loan game in general, how do VA loans stack up against other loans like, let's say, an FHA loan?
	Is one outperforming the other?
	Is one more of an advantage than the other?
	Are they comparable or no?
	Well, I would say if you're looking at purely from the lender side down, FHA and VA loans would be very similar products.
	They're backed by the same corporate organization, which happens to be our federal government.
	Down payment requirements might be the one thing where there's a couple of percent up or down.
	But income requirements, debt to income ratios, All of those other characteristics, the lower FICO score to get approval, those things would be the exact same.
	And I think the stark thing that we saw was the VA loans, who are in essence underwritten with the same criteria as the FHA loans, were performing far better than the FHA program that was losing houses at a two-to-one clip over the VA. So The borrowers, even though from a financial window, appear to be the same.
	The default rate does speak volumes.
	Now, depending upon if that's flawed or skewed data because of COVID and how many people went into either forbearance or During the moratorium, when you just, for whatever reason, you didn't have to pay your mortgage, and then that went on forever.
	Maybe that skewed some of the data, and we'll see some of that coming out of it now in 23.
	But at this point, if you were looking at pure numbers, those were stark, and they speak for themselves.
	What about other loans, like conventional loans, or anything like that?
	Are those And is one fair better than the other?
	I think if you ever did, if you could do a deep dive, and I think, you know, with our newfound connections and helpful friends over at UVLC, There may just be a way for us to deep dive into some of the VA loan products,
	find some of those demographics, throw out the higher income threshold individuals that are still using the VA loan and see how some of those subsections of the veteran demographic are doing against traditional Loans, the same demographic in the traditional loan arena.
	I think there would be some things to see in there that might be very interesting.
	Because if you're just taking them on their face, conventional loans are a lot of your, you know, better than 800.
	Highly affluent, you know, they're almost in-house product loans.
	They're backed in-house.
	They're not going through a lot of programs.
	They're, they're, they're qualified, qualified borrowers typically with more money than they even have in a note.
	Um, so when you see those numbers as low as they are, you know, how do you really compare that against, you know, um, a first time home buyer if they're VA or otherwise.
	So again, that's where, you know, if you're able to pull out some of those pieces and then look at them across and then say, well, they actually do hold up and they, and they And maybe some people are using them to some greater advantage for some type of creation of wealth using the VA program.
	I think there's a heck of a portfolio on there that I'd love to see the information on so we can help people kind of navigate through that process too.
	And so...
	You know, statistically speaking, realistically, that VA loan, that would be something if Richard and Jason were putting both dollars that we have to our names out there to make loans, I'd feel pretty confident with my $1 out there that we would take a VA loan, you know?
	Well, I think that this whole thing is interesting because from what you said, if I'm understanding correctly, The percentage at which VA loans are defaulting is not much different than FHA loans.
	The qualifications are the same, credit score, all that stuff.
	I would like to be able to, and I don't even know if the data is out there, but figure out, if possible, why veterans are defaulting on loans.
	Maybe not so much in the financial literacy realm, or maybe it all plays together, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I'd like to be able, if we can, to find some data that supports or tells the story of what problems veterans are having keeping their homes.
	Because as we know that there is a huge problem in this country with veteran homelessness and people are working or claim to be working all over the country to solve this issue.
	But it seems like there are just some hurdles in that whole initiative that are going to prove to be a perilous journey to solve.
	I wonder if there's a way to find out what those things are, other than beating the pavement, asking folks, hey man, are you a veteran?
	Did you ever own a home and did you lose it and why?
	Do banks or, to the best of your knowledge, do banks or the federal government Keep track of the reasons as to why people lose their homes or is it simply that they just didn't make the payment and they didn't live up to their end of the bargain and so we had to take it back.
	Is there anybody out there that you know of that keeps that data or at least asks for it?
	I'm sure there's records somewhere in the federal system.
	Typically it would be whoever the servicing bank was through their collections process and everything else going on.
	There's always a reason, right?
	There's always a reason that things go bad.
	They have that.
	I'm certain that, again, if we connect with our friends and we ask for a lot of those pieces, we'll be able to see it.
	I don't think we'd ever see that from another financial institution.
	I don't think they'd be very quick to hand those things over.
	But I think if they were veteran-specific, we'll be able to find it.
	We can look at things that are vet-centered that are just outliers that most people just don't find themselves in these problems and situations.
	We'll see it.
	I suppose the banks don't really, for the most part, they don't really care.
	I mean, not to say that banks don't care about people, but...
	They do, but that's their information.
	That's not public information.
	I wouldn't even care who you knew and how powerful of a person that they were.
	You would never get your hands on that information because that is an in-house.
	That is such a private matter.
	Because banks are built upon trust, first and foremost.
	It's not even about money or anything else.
	So no financial institution in their right mind would ever share that information.
	And I think that's where that lever with having the VA available.
	Instead of going to the banks to look, we would have to look at peer loan programs.
	And again, I would be certain that somebody in Freddie and Fannie is kind of tracking a lot of those things too.
	So you could see peer demographics between the FHA programs and the VAs.
	And there you would be able to see your stark differences and you would see the similarities.
	So then you'd be able to figure out what's actually happening based upon analytics and outcome.
	Do you think, Jason, that the...
	Do you think that the military culture has anything to do with veterans defaulting on loans and losing things that they worked for?
	Like, is there something about...
	Being raised in the military, in that culture that you don't necessarily learn through the course of your service.
	And as I said before offline, I'm sure that there is some sort of...
	Program when you're out processing from the military that tells you, hey man, you were used to not paying for this, now you're going to have to pay for this.
	But I feel like in those times when folks are leaving the service, the last thing they care about is another briefing.
	I want to get out of here.
	I want to go home.
	I want to see my mom and eat her macaroni and cheese and cornbread and all that other crap.
	The last thing they're worried about is another briefing and somebody telling them what they should be doing versus what probably will happen.
	But do you think that that might be an issue for veterans?
	I don't know if it's the information getting out in front of us or, you know, is it just the fact that or just the reason behind who we've become through that journey, that adventure, that process, we become a little more risk adverse.
	We're not scared of it anymore.
	We kind of push everything to the edge.
	We don't, you know, being risky isn't just, you know, doing wheelies on the Harley down Highway 5, right?
	It's about spending and doing things that maybe you're outside of your comfort bubble, but because you're comfortable in pretty much any bubble, everything goes, and you do all these other things.
	And so I would guess that there's probably something there, but that also might be the reason why, again, if we can see some of that data, it might be some of the reasons why that they're outperforming.
	The other FHA loans because they're willing to do what it takes to keep the mission going forward, you know?
	But for the ones that go wrong, I can assure you in my body, I cannot assure you.
	But my assumption is when those are going bad and they do go bad, there is nothing left on the battlefield.
	Like, there isn't a dollar to be found underneath a rock, underneath a corner.
	Like, those folks have exhausted all options to get there.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and so maybe the answer to the question is yes.
	As you stated, I... I don't know.
	I struggle with it because what I feel like is that, at times, the system is kind of just putting veterans at a disadvantage, knowing that they're going to have struggles.
	But the other thing that I realize is that we still all have our own personal decisions to make.
	And just because we chose to wear a uniform doesn't preclude us from having to adult.
	If you will.
	But it's a tough thing for me because I feel like there is just more information that can be put out and just, you know, sit these guys down and grab them by the lapels of their uniform and say, just listen.
	Kind of like you want to do to your children sometimes.
	You know, so like, in my mind, it's a catch-22, because you don't want to, you certainly don't want to down-talk these folks, but you also don't want to watch them walk out the door knowing that they're going to fail at anything.
	And so, I don't know, maybe it's just me being, you know, the big, softy, compassionate Richard, but...
	The truth of the matter is you've got to pay your bills.
	You've got to live, in my opinion, live by the golden rule and everything and be all right.
	But that doesn't always seem to happen.
	And then we find ourselves in this vicious circle of we're going to help veterans get to this place as it relates to being homeless or in that poverty circle that we talked about.
	Getting them an opportunity to do something bigger and better And then also knowing that some of them are going to be back in that cycle and they won't take full advantage of the opportunities that are given to them.
	And I just ask myself, why the hell does that happen, number one?
	And number two, what is it that we could do different or better?
	And I don't know that there's a good answer for that.
	But we have run out of time in the segment.
	And so, Jason, if you had a rebuttal, Hold on to that because we need to come back to it.
	Stick with us.
	Hey folks, welcome back here to the last segment of the show.
	We went a little bit over time on a previous segment, so we have condensed time.
	Jason, we set out today to further answer the question whether or not we feel like veterans are at an advantage or a disadvantage for VA home loans.
	What say you, sir?
	My gut tells me that it's a full-blown advantage just for opportunity, not just the opportunity to use the program that might actually fit them or suit them best financially, but maybe an opportunity for them to continually feel like they're part of a veteran organization group or whatever it is all the way around.
	Yeah, and I agree.
	Based on the things that we talked about today, clearly you're a whole lot more in tune with this financial thing than I am, but what I've learned today is that if a loan that's tailor-made for me as a veteran is performing the same as somebody else, but yet I still have this This tailor-made program, let's say, that's carved out for members of the military.
	I think about those veterans who may have had a tattered past, financially or otherwise.
	And this also, other than being an advantage financially to them, in my opinion, gives them Some more purpose.
	Like you had talked about earlier in the show, Jason, about mission first, right?
	And so...
	For that guy who feels like maybe I failed at this or that and I stumbled my way through my military contract, this is a program that can help those people feel better about who they are because they can take advantage of something that's tailor-made for them and then blow it out of the park.
	And that just helps to build that self-esteem back up and makes it so...
	Hopefully we don't fall back into those traps and into those bad habits or, you know, who knows what else could happen.
	So I agree that this is an advantage to us as veterans and I think that America in general agrees.
	But I don't think a lot of people know the ins and outs.
	So I'm really glad that you were here.
	You have a little bit of experience in this realm, so that's good.
	So we have about six minutes left.
	I'm gonna let you start on the closing argument here.
	What do you got?
	Well...
	I kind of think about this opportunity we have with UVLC, Richie.
	And it seems like every time that we talk about something here, you know, we keep going back to the, you know, boy, if you can grab that guy by the lapels and that gal and do the thing at that time, da-da-da-da-da.
	We're not going to go back in time.
	We don't have a time machine.
	We don't have any of those pieces.
	Quite frankly, we don't want to be part of Department of Defense and training and all that other malarkey.
	What we do have is an opportunity, once again, with UVLC to maybe create that digital storefront where...
	Maybe somebody hears something in our conversation and we can highlight and create a webinar of sorts through UVLC that helps navigate folks through maybe the VA loan process.
	From a first-time home buyer to maybe a more savvy investor that's using the program to advantage some collateralization of asset that they couldn't otherwise do without that program.
	Or showing somebody that maybe has a great credit score that it's time to get out of the trench of using the VA product, you're gonna do better with a better interest rate through the conventional world.
	But if people aren't having those things explained to them, they're gonna stay in the same rut, doing the same thing day in and day out.
	And it's not wrong, but it could be better.
	So I think that's a challenge for you and I is to figure out each and every time that we get together and talk about this, How can we, based upon the interaction we get with folks, create something else that can keep that conversation rolling forward, bringing in more subject matter experts to give people real information that they can use to better their own situations?
	Well, absolutely.
	My response is absolutely.
	The opportunity that the United Veterans Legislative Council here in Minnesota gives us is to touch the lives of veterans all over this country.
	I am not a thousand percent positive if there are other groups like UVLC around the country, but I think that if there isn't, there should be.
	Having a group of veterans that is an organization that holds a little bit of weight with your state legislators, has the ear of federal and state agencies as it pertains to the veteran community, is a huge advantage when you have A group of people, like our board, for example, is a group of veterans who all have a passion to touch the lives of our brothers and sisters in the community.
	And the unique thing about Minnesota UVLC is that none of us really care about personal gain as it relates to the organization and what that organization provides to the veterans in our communities.
	We don't do it for money because it's volunteer.
	It's not a very prestigious position to be in, because I think that here in Minnesota, it kind of holds a little bit of weight.
	People are willing to listen.
	But what it does is gives veterans a seat at the table.
	And at the end of the day, that is the opportunity.
	Nothing is going to be handed to us, but it gives us an opportunity to change the narrative, We're good to go.
	That we assembled as a group, like, you know, it's like Power Rangers, right?
	Just all of a sudden, one day, here we all are, right?
	Ben Krause, by the way, is the pink Power Ranger.
	I'll be the black one.
	Jason, you can be blue or red.
	I'll leave that up to you.
	But seriously, it is an opportunity to do a lot of great things for a lot of veterans.
	And you know what?
	At the end of the day, if we make zero money but impact just one veteran or a thousand or a hundred thousand or all of them, it's a mission accomplished.
	I can't be more honored to be a part of the group.
	Right.
	It's going to be some fun stuff.
	I'm a little worried how much further we're going to go, but I'm excited for the ride.
	I think in the words that you use often, we should probably be ready to buckle up and get ready for the ride.
	And folks, even if you're not in Minnesota, I urge you to stay tuned because I think a lot of the things that we're going to do on the show, a lot of the things that UVLC is going to get into as the time goes by is going to be very impactful to the community today.
	There'll also be opportunities for you, no matter who you are, what your experience with the military culture is, or if you don't have any.
	There'll be opportunities to engage.
	And at the end of the day, it's all about getting involved.
	You know, we've talked on this show a lot about, you know, get involved.
	Have these conversations at the dinner table, around the water cooler at work, whatever it is.
	The information can spread word to mouth.
	We don't need pamphlets.
	We don't necessarily need social media.
	We don't necessarily need this or that.
	But if we have these conversations, it'll get to where it needs to go eventually.
	So with that, we've run out of time, but I want to thank you all for being here today.
	We'll see you next week.
	Jason, thank you for your time.
	We'll see you around the bend there, brother.
	Thank you, sir.

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