Stefan Molyneux confronts a caller detailing childhood abuse, online prostitution at sixteen, and a contradictory desire to love an unrepentant father who facilitated sexual exploitation. While the caller claims Christian values mandate loving this abuser, Molyneux argues that maintaining contact requires ongoing deception and gaslighting, preventing genuine healing. Ultimately, the discussion suggests that true liberation demands breaking toxic familial bonds rather than clinging to false narratives of love that enable continued harm. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Constant Struggle With People00:04:13
Right.
So, um, let me just make sure I've got the backup recording running here.
It's a public call.
So, if you can stay off names and places, I would be thrilled beyond measure.
And yeah, if you want to read your note or you want to just tell me how I can best help, I'm happy to jump in.
Can I maybe say something first?
Of course.
Um, well, first, I want to thank you, uh, very much.
Um, I've been listening to you for about, I think, 19 years now.
Um, wow, that's fantastic.
Yeah.
When you're like first starting out in your car.
I think I watched a lot of your videos.
I've always been very inclined to listen to philosophy and read philosophy.
I've always been quite cerebral, like to think.
And you've been quite instrumental in shaping me and shaping my, well, like my, how do you call it, my ontology.
You've been a very big figure in my life and you've shaped me in a lot of ways.
And I would just like to thank you for that.
I very much appreciate that.
And I think you get some sort of award or bell for the longest listener in a while.
So thank you.
Okay.
That's nice.
I'm also very sad to see your YouTube channel that it was deleted because your YouTube channel was such a great treasure of so much information with this myriad, so many experts on all these topics.
When you went into so much depth, it's such a shame that it's not there anymore.
And so, yeah, thank you for that.
Thank you.
So, my question I was.
Well, the last few years have been quite good for me in some ways.
Material, they've been well.
In the material plane, they've been well.
So, life hasn't been treating me bad.
Yet, I do feel that there is.
I feel that I'm becoming a little bit more misanthropic.
I'm not depressed, although I do feel I'm starting to become a bit alienated in the way that I don't really feel.
That I want to participate anymore with people around me, with society, with.
I just.
I don't feel.
That I can really relate to people anymore.
That my inner.
How I perceive stuff is so far from people, from the normal person.
And it's hard for me to relate to people anymore.
And I don't really want to.
It's hard for me to make an effort into people, to get to know them, to really.
Be truly interested in them.
And I want to explore whether this is just perception, this is an inner defense mechanism of something psychological going on, or this is just the truth that the world is getting duller, more dumb, more.
What's going on?
Does that make sense to you?
Sorry, I'm really nervous.
I'm happy to hear more there.
When did you first notice this really beginning to kick in with you?
I think it started to kick in way before COVID, but when the pandemic hit, it really started to hit me.
My life kind of became a constant struggle with the people around me.
If I went to, I didn't wear the mask.
So the struggle was like a real tangible struggle.
Like I went to a supermarket, it was like constant people like telling me, Sir, sir, you need to wear the mask.
And it was really like a battle, like a constant uphill battle.
I really found out that really so few people see things my way.
And when I first started listening to you a very long time ago, I kind of had this feeling that, well, we're getting all this information and people are getting smarter.
We have the Flynn effect.
And I feel that in, I really thought that when I was this age, I thought people would have a circle around me of like minded people who I could be around.
Dating Life Shifts And Hope Lost00:05:41
And although I have really tried my best into finding this circle and getting these people around me, I have failed in that.
I could not find these people.
I have not found them.
I don't have a prospect of finding them.
And I'm just starting to believe that they are not there, that there are very far, a few between, maybe one in a thousand or less.
And yeah, I feel, especially the last few years, I'm becoming quite despondent.
And that dream of finding my people, quote unquote, has kind of died within me.
Right.
Okay.
All right.
And how's your dating life?
Dating life.
Well, I have a date tomorrow.
So it's not non existent, but it has really, my dating life is not really here.
Especially the last few years, I went on a couple of dates, but not many.
And what about your history?
My history?
Not good.
I have a very bad dating history.
I have a very bad relational history.
Have only had a handful of relationships, not anyone, not they didn't last long.
Also, have I didn't, yeah, I didn't have like good role models for good relationships, but yeah, I don't really.
And also, I kind of gave up hope on that, that I'll find a partner.
I kind of gave up hope, to be honest.
And how old are you now?
How old am I?
Yes, 37.
All right.
So, you've been in the dating market a little over 20 years, and what's the longest relationship you've had?
My longest relationship was a year.
When was that?
That was, I think, six years ago.
And tell me a little bit about that.
It was a homosexual relationship.
It was with another man.
And we broke up.
I like that clarification.
It was a homosexual relationship with another man.
Yes.
It's like how my daughter used to say 2 p.m. in the afternoon.
Anyway, sorry, go on.
Yeah, sorry.
Yeah, that was.
We broke up because, well, he broke up with me because I made jokes that he didn't like.
And it was kind of like, also, that feeling kind of slipped in there because he broke up with me because I started making some jokes that are just kind of edgy, I guess, but to him, not to me.
And also, I was just kind of trying to be myself like, okay, if I really say the things that are really within my heart and I say them out loud, will people run away?
And yeah, they'll run away from me.
So, there's this nagging feeling like if I really open up, if I really show myself, if I really say what I, from the bottom of my heart, believe and feel, people will run away from me.
And also, what also doesn't help is that I'm not that pretty.
So, that also doesn't help my dating life.
I mean, I saw your video at the beginning.
You're a good looking guy.
Not that great, I guess.
Well, thanks for the compliment, but I don't agree.
I mean, you're not overweight.
You've got a nice head of hair, a nice beard.
I mean, Good facial structure.
I mean, is there something that you consider negative that's strong that I don't know?
Yeah, I think you only see like a side profile.
I have quite an asymmetrical face.
So, was this a one time thing?
Are you bisexual?
Are you gay?
Actually, I really don't know.
I think bisexual.
Aesthetic, the physical attraction standards in the gay community are insane.
Yeah.
And, you know, if you're not ripped and look like Ricky Martin or whatever, right?
I mean, it's really quite mad in the gay community just how the, I mean, not in all, right?
But in general, in the gay community, the body standard is nuts.
That is true.
But I also feel that has also kind of shifted over to the heterosexual relationships because now with the looks maxing, I don't know if you heard about that.
Oh, yeah.
It has become so atomized.
And like men have become like this atomized self beautification objects.
And like looks is becoming so incredibly important.
And also with all these dating apps, like back in the day, you had like competition of like the men around you, like a hundred.
People around you, that was your competition, and now my competition is like the world, like millions of people.
And also, I see it with myself when you're swiping on these apps, it's so easy to have like the feeling, oh, just a couple of swipes further, and I'll find my perfect partner.
And there's also this feeling that you can just get a little bit better if you just keep on swiping.
So, if you're not at 10, it feels like, yeah, there's just too much, the supply and demand is really skewed.
It feels like that.
Okay.
So you are asexual, bisexual, gay, demisexual, straight.
He said you don't know.
So I don't know what I don't know means.
You have a sex drive.
Is it toasters?
Like, what is it aimed at?
It's very hard for me to.
I kind of shoved it under the.
God.
Bit asexual, I guess.
I don't really think about it that much.
Naive Beginnings And Sex Drive Confusion00:15:18
Although when I do, it kind of goes all over the place.
I guess the best would be bisexual.
I guess that's if you really want to quantify it, bisexual, I guess.
Are you saying that your sex drive is low?
Yeah.
It's not a good system.
I just want to make sure I understand where you're coming from.
Yeah, it's quite low.
Okay.
All right.
And was that always the case?
Was it higher at some point in the past?
Well, I was 14 once.
So, yeah, it was higher.
But yeah, that kind of gradually became less.
And, like, I started dating when I was like 20, had a girlfriend, had a boyfriend, and sex drive was high then, I guess.
It's still not that my sex drive is completely gone, but it's just I don't want to give into it, I guess.
I don't want to think about it.
It's something I like to shove, put away.
I like to put it in the icebox, so to speak.
And why do you think that is?
I think I had very bad examples for how relationships look like and worked.
So I never really seen people like happily in love.
I never experienced that.
And also my youth, I was like bullied a lot and I didn't have a nice youth, like quite a horrible one, actually.
I'm sorry about that.
Tell me what happened in your childhood.
I got horrifically bullied.
Like, really horrifically bullied.
So, when I went to school, so elementary school, like when I was like from six to like 12, I got like bullied the most harsh from the entire school.
And I had very bad parental relationships.
I did not like my parents.
My parents, like especially my mother, did not like me.
So, when I got home, the first thing I would do is go upstairs.
And if my parents would walk up the stairs, I would just hold my breath and hope they would walk away.
And so, if I would just go to school, I would dissociate and I would just be completely bullied by everyone.
When I got home, I would just hide in my room, hope nobody would find me.
And I guess I didn't have a good start in that sense.
So, what was going on with your parents?
My parents both, although from different families and really different stories in those families, they both did not come from good families.
Both have a lot of problems.
My mother's side, especially, came from a very large family.
Everything horrid that happened in that family, like abuse, poverty, hunger, everything horrible that you can imagine happened there.
And also, for my father's side, quite some bad stuff happened there suicide attempts.
My grandpa was in the police, Indonesian police.
Actions in Indonesia, and he did a lot of bad stuff there and he took that home.
So, my parents both were not very healthy people in expressing their relation and having a healthy relationship with each other.
Like, I don't have really memories of my father showing affection to my mother.
Like, that's something I never ever experienced.
All right.
And were you aggressed against yourself?
Sorry, I did not hear that.
Aggressed?
Yeah, you were aggressed against yourself.
Your parents, did they hit you?
Did they beat you?
Did they spank you?
Not really.
I got spanked twice.
I talked about it with my parents, but they denied it.
It never happened, according to them.
But yeah, it did happen, but not that bad, but it did happen.
And do you have siblings?
I have a half sister who was 10 years older than me.
And I moved out of my house when I was 16 because it was really bad at the.
At my parental house.
So I moved with my sister and I lived with her for about three years.
And she was like a mother to me.
Huh.
How much older?
11 years older than me.
11 or 10.
I don't know.
Right.
Okay.
So how did you ever have any close connection with your parents at all?
Because, you know, the bullying usually comes because the parents are quite distant, right?
Yeah.
And also, I had a conversation with my parents and also I told them, like, You know, I had a very bad parental relationship, and you just saw this on me.
Like, if I see pictures of myself from that time, you just see this kid has nowhere to go.
This kid has nowhere to go to, and he just looks weak and like a prey.
And just kids pick up on that very easily.
Right.
Okay.
And did you do any kind of sports or anything like that that might have countered some of the bullying?
Yeah.
I went to kickboxing and judo.
Kickboxing is something I kept on for very long.
So I did kickboxing for about 10 years, I think.
So, really like that.
So the bullying stopped.
Also, I'm 6'6, so I'm quite tall.
So the bullying stopped when I became big and tall and strong.
But also, you're 6'6, and you have concerns about your physical appearance.
Well, I'm quite.
Yeah, yeah, I do.
Yeah.
Okay.
I can hear all the short guys screaming.
But anyway, go on.
So, yeah, I did some kickboxing, and that stopped the bullying.
But the bullying went on through high school, and it only really stopped at college when I was just an adult.
So, tell me a bit about the bullying.
What would happen?
People would just make fun of me because I would just, I looked really, I don't know how to translate this in English, but I didn't like a really recessed chin that kind of evened out now.
But I just looked really lanky.
I was just really tall, really skinny.
I just looked a bit silly and just very socially awkward.
So, yeah, they just ripped me apart.
Like, it was really brutal.
It was, yeah, just making fun of me, calling me names, social exclusion.
So that, yeah, it wasn't fun.
I did kind of get some friends when I was a bit older.
I started hanging out with the golf kids and started smoking cigarettes and smoking weed and hanging out with the cool kids.
Sorry, the cool kids.
Golf kids?
Yeah, golf kids.
Oh, golf.
Sorry, say it's golf.
Golf kids.
Okay, go ahead.
That makes a bit more sense.
Okay, go ahead.
So I did get some friends, although.
The only thing that bothered us was weed and alcohol, to be honest.
But I did get some friends that way.
Okay.
All right.
And when you first began to get your hormones and so on, was there, what did you do in terms of attractiveness or being attracted to people and so on?
I don't really understand the question.
What did I do?
How do you mean?
I mean, did you start asking boys out or girls out or anything like that?
I have quite a horrible story here.
I started prostituting myself.
Okay, go on.
So, when I was 16, I started that, and that kind of went on till I was like 23, 24.
Okay, so tell me a bit about that.
I was just, I got on the internet and I found this website where you could come into contact with people.
With other men, gay men.
And one of these guys gave me a lot of attention.
This is something I really liked.
And also, then I found out you could also make a lot of money with that.
And that's something I gravitated towards.
I feel horrible saying it and thinking about it.
But that is what I did.
What do you feel about it?
Horrible, disgusted.
Although I kind of gave it a place now.
It is what it is.
It is something.
Yeah.
So my most of my.
Sorry, were you groomed?
Is that what happened?
Not really.
I kind of looked for it myself.
Maybe I was groomed for the first time, but the other encounters, I really seek them out myself.
Also, for monetary financial incentive, which was really big at that time.
I mean, everybody has monetary financial incentives.
It's not common to take this path.
So tell me about the first time, because I mean, that's the band aid off, so to speak, with regards to your conscience.
And tell me how that came out.
About?
The first time I did that for money is I was just in a really bad place.
I got bullied in school tremendously.
I kind of started doubting whether I was straight or I was gay.
I found this validation.
I had sex one time with another man.
And after that, I went on this website and you could just kind of.
Sorry, you said you had sex with another man.
And how old were you?
Yeah, 16.
And how old was the man?
He was relatively young.
He was about 24.
But the first time I prostituted myself, Okay, hang on.
Let me just do one at a time.
One at a time.
One horrible story at a time.
Okay.
So you were 16, he was 24.
Yes.
Is that legal where you are?
Don't tell me where you are, but I'm just, that seems not legal.
I don't think it was legal.
No.
That was probably not legal.
No.
Okay.
So it's not really like having sex if it's not legal, right?
Does that change the definition of sex?
Yes, of course.
Okay.
I mean, certainly in the eyes of the law, it would be statutory rape if it wasn't legal, right?
Yeah, although I did consent, not really though.
I didn't know what I was getting myself into.
Sorry to be annoying.
The whole point of the age gap is that you can't consent because you're still a child.
Yeah, no, he did abuse me in that sense.
He took advantage of me.
He knew I was naive and he took advantage of me.
Well, he knew you were still legally a child, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
Now, you could say it's one thing, and some places have sort of, if you're close in age, it's not so bad, but.
He was at brain maturity.
You were still almost 10 years away from brain maturity.
Yeah.
Right?
Yes.
So that's terrible.
And how did you meet him?
Internet, through the internet to a chat site.
And we just exchanged numbers.
And he called me.
And I was really flattered by the attention I got and the interest he showed in me.
And then I met him at his house.
And naive of me, I thought he just wanted to talk and just talk with me.
And yeah, he just started kissing me.
And.
Yeah, just, um, and that, uh, for a friend, and then he had sex with you.
Yeah.
Or had statutory rape with you or something like that, right?
Yeah.
I'm so sorry.
I mean, it's just terrible.
It's just terrible.
I'm, I'm, I'm just sorry.
That's just awful.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And you said he abused you.
And then do you mean just in terms of the age difference or do you mean something else?
No, in terms of the age difference, because I, I really went in there with completely different expectations.
I kind of left there feeling in the moment.
I was kind of, I felt glad because I felt really mature in that moment.
I felt like I was an adult now.
Weird.
But yeah, it really wasn't good.
It was a bad thing that he did.
And was there any pleasure in it at all?
No, it was very hard for me.
I don't think I came or ejaculated.
I just, it all went, it happened really quick and I was just kind of.
Overrun by that whole experience.
And I was just very, very shy and very, I didn't know what was happening.
And I was just very naive and stupid.
Well, no, no, hang on.
Don't call yourself naive and stupid.
You were unprotected and preyed upon.
Yeah.
Again, I'm very sorry.
It's just wrong.
It's just wrong.
Okay.
And how long did that?
I don't know if we can call it a relationship or whatever you want to say, but how long did that last?
Only the one time, because I did have, he tried to call me afterwards, and then I had like this moment of consciousness crisis where I didn't want to engage with him anymore.
I saw that only that one night.
Right.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
And so that was not good because he basically got you out there.
To on the basis of friendship and then sort of jumped you, right?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Okay.
Sorry about that.
And then how long was it after that that you began to think about being a prostitute?
Very short, very short.
I think two, three months after that, I had another man who I met.
He was a much older man, he was about 50, 60.
And he had promises of a lot of money.
And so I went with him.
And he was very nice.
He was how old?
He was held?
How do you mean?
Sorry, no, sorry.
He was how old?
I think he was in his 50s.
And you were 16 or 17?
16.
He was 16.
And was this sort of a nakedly financial relationship?
Yeah.
And I do have, I don't have fond memories of that man, but he was very kind and he was very sweet and he was very.
Aware of the situation, you said, like, oh, you're a 16, you're just a child.
Are you trying to give me a fucking aneurysm here, bro?
No, sorry.
Seriously, what the fuck are you doing?
Almost 20 years you've been listening to my show, and you're talking about a sweet man in his 50s who pays a child for sex.
Yeah, that's not sweet.
Like, Jesus, man, who the fuck do you think you're talking to?
Financial Exploitation Of A Teenager00:03:00
I don't mean this in an aggressive way, but like, what are you trying to do?
But, no, you're in a state of unconsciousness here.
You're talking without any emotional connection here.
And I don't mean this in a critical way.
I'm not trying to be an ag or anything like that.
I'm just pointing it out.
Because, I mean, you understand that if you say things like that to me, it puts me in a kind of fucked up position, right?
Yeah, you're right.
And again, I'm not trying to be an ag, and I do apologize for any harshness, but it's a very unconscious conversation.
If this is where you're at, that you're trying to tell me this guy was nice and sweet.
He wasn't nice and sweet, but I'm not trying to defend the guy, but I'm just trying to describe him.
Yeah, exactly.
Hang on.
Are you describing him accurately?
No, I'm only describing how he presented himself.
He presented himself as a very sweet old man.
He wasn't, clearly, but that's how he presented himself.
As far as I understand it, he was a criminal.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Again, unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't he a criminal?
He is a criminal.
Absolutely.
I mean, he's paying a child for sex.
Yeah.
He's paying to commit a crime.
And the paying is also a crime.
Yeah.
So help me understand what's going on here.
Well, it's mostly comparative because it wasn't just that man.
Don't intellectualize with me.
Mostly comparative.
What does that mean?
Yeah, I'm just a word.
What does that mean?
It's mostly comparative.
I'm asking what's going on that you would try and sell me this horrible human being as nice and sweet.
Again, I'm sorry to be harsh.
I don't know where we're at.
I shouldn't sell him as that.
You were right.
No, and again, I'm not trying to be critical.
I'm trying to understand what's going on with your mind or mindset here at the moment.
I was just trying to describe him.
No, I understand.
I understand what you were doing.
The question is, why were you doing it?
Why were you trying to sell this horrible human being as nice and sweet?
And again, I'm not trying to be critical or negative.
I'm just trying to understand because you've been listening to this show for 19 years and you'd say something like that.
Again, it's not a critical position.
Trying to understand.
Well, from all the horrible criminals I prostitute myself, he was the kindest.
Let's keep it at that.
That's an objective truth, and that doesn't make me less of a monster.
Okay.
So, help me understand how you came about thinking I will sell my body for money for sex at 16.
Because everybody at school hated me.
Early Internet Exposure And Influence00:03:24
I lived in social isolation.
Every time my parents even came near me, I couldn't even breathe, literally, not figuratively, literally.
I could not breathe.
I would hold my breath, hoping they would go away.
So I was just very, very alone.
And the prospect of someone giving me love, how horrible that quote unquote love was.
I know it wasn't love, but just the interest he gave me was.
Something I craved, I think.
Okay.
When did you start the kickboxing?
I started that when I was 21, 22.
Okay.
So I'm still trying to understand.
And again, I say this not from a critical standpoint.
I'm just trying to really fathom like, you couldn't join a club.
You couldn't play Dungeons and Dragons.
You couldn't learn how to play chess.
You couldn't, like, there was nothing.
Like, I'm trying to understand why you go to this place.
Because I felt unloved.
Well, okay, I understand that.
Hang on.
Sorry.
I understand that.
But I mean, there are lots of people who feel unloved in the world, and this is not necessarily where they go.
I mean, I'm trying to maybe necessary, but not sufficient, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
I also don't really know.
Okay, good.
So if we don't know, that's good.
That's good.
Then we can stop pretending to know, right?
Okay.
So now we have to try and understand, right?
We should try and understand.
Did you experience any sexual abuse as a child?
No, I did not.
No, absolutely not.
Okay.
So, did you have early exposure to sexual imagery or pornography or anything like that?
I was exposed to the internet quite young.
So, I guess, yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, at what age did you start viewing or consuming pornography?
I think about 12 or 13, my first pornographic images.
If you look at it in hindsight, they were just pictures, but that has a huge impact on you when you're that young.
I was the first generation to go on the internet with my 65K modem.
So, yeah, I was exposed to it very young.
Okay.
And your parents didn't give you any cyber proofing or put any parental controls on or lock things down or anything like that, right?
No.
Okay.
And what influence do you think that had on this?
I don't know.
I don't know what influence that had.
You're dodging.
Hang on.
Hang on.
What was my question?
What the influence of pornography had on me?
No, I said, what do you think, or what do you think, not what do you know?
Right.
So, and again, I'm sorry to be an ag, but when people switch from what is your theory to saying I don't know the actual facts, then that's a dodge, right?
If I say, what do you, what influence do you think this might have had on you?
And you said, well, I don't know for sure.
That's not dealing with the question, if that makes sense.
Bad Parenting And Mental Health Impact00:09:23
Okay.
So, what do you think?
The relationship might have been because you had been consuming pornography for years.
Yeah.
And of course, pornographers are paid, usually, hopefully.
I mean, hopefully, they're not in the industry at all, but they're paid for sexual activity.
And you've been watching this for years.
It made me curious.
It made me extremely curious.
It made me curious, and it was something I wanted to do.
Okay.
So you wanted to have sex, which is, of course, common in your teenage years, right?
I guess, yeah.
And if you wanted to have sex, there's lots of ways to have sex without being a prostitute or a child prostitute in this case, right?
Yes.
So why do you think you would go in that direction?
I think because I had a very bad relationship with my father, I think.
I think my father never, my parents never hugged me.
My parents never said they loved me.
My parents never comforted me.
My parents never.
My parents were very harsh.
And I think my father was also quite autistic.
He could not express his emotions well.
So my parents were always angry at me and always mean at me, always never warm or never soft or never kind.
So the prospect of receiving kindness from another man was something I think subconsciously really craved.
Okay.
So you were looking for male affection in part because your father was so distant?
I think so.
I think, yeah, I think so.
It's hard to go back so long in time to really.
Because you do the things you do, you're not conscious of them, of your actions.
You're conscious, but it's hard to distill really what was the reason I did it.
But I do feel that was a big hole in my heart.
I know that from a very young age, I wish my dad would have hugged me.
I wish my dad would be kind to me.
And I also.
Remember many conversations I had long before that with my dad, where I told him, I told him, I wish you would be kind to me.
I'm always, I know when I went over to friends' house and people were, my friends were having fun with their parents, they were cracking jokes with their parents.
I would just be completely stupefied and be completely silenced because it was just so alien to me.
And that was something on a subconscious level I craved extremely.
Oh, and maybe that's why your first John was the older man.
Maybe, yeah.
Like 40, almost 40 years older.
Okay.
That I had some fond feelings for him.
That probably, yeah.
But in a way, it's kind of incestuous, though, to say, I want affection from my dad, so I'm going to have sex with older men.
That's to say that the kind of affection that you want from your father is sexual in nature, if that makes sense.
So that's what I'm trying to understand.
I did not want a sexual relationship from my father.
I did not want that.
Well, but I'm not saying that you did, right?
That's why it says it's kind of incestuous in nature, not in fact, right?
Because if you want affection from older men, or you want, then to mix sexuality into it is interesting.
It's not, I'm trying to think of the best way to put this.
And also, it was kind of like beggars can be choosers.
It was the only way.
How?
I didn't see another way.
To get affection from older men.
To get affection from anyone.
And that's because dating was impossible because of the bullying or something else?
Yeah, I think of the bullying and how I looked at the time.
I had extremely bad teeth.
I just, I don't know, I think I was very, yeah, the bullying did a number on me.
I was being bullied because, well, I had a very bad parental relationship.
You could just smell that on me.
You could just see it when I just walked in the room.
You could just see that on me.
I just looked very sad as a kid.
I was quite a mess.
I saw some videos of me when I was a kid, and it just looked sad.
It just looked really, really sad.
If I would see a kid like me, I would just have extreme pity for that child.
So I didn't feel like I was worth anything.
Or dating, you need to have self work before you start dating.
And I did not have that, not a bit at that time.
I was just very socially awkward, didn't talk to anyone.
My only interaction with people was being bullied.
That was my only interaction.
I'm so sorry.
Anything with your mom?
My mom, I had a very bad relationship with my mother.
My mother was not a nice person.
She was very mean to me, she was extremely mean.
Also, my mother was very narcissistic.
I was very performative.
So, my mother would kind of live vicariously through me.
Also, I had to, she didn't like, she gave me clothes, et cetera, but not to make me look good, but to so that people would think she's a good mother.
So, every time I went to school, I first had to sit in her chair and she would put makeup on me.
So, other mothers would not think she's a bad mother because I would look good.
This was the rationale behind that.
I really didn't like that.
Sorry, your mother put makeup on you every morning.
Yes.
Jesus.
I don't imagine that helped being bullied.
No, that really didn't help.
It's not fun when you're like nine and kids bully you because your mascara is running.
What the fuck?
This is insane.
What the unholy hell is wrong with these people?
I mean, that's not even like, gee, you know, my mom didn't really, if she gave me a bad bowl cut with serrated scissors, right?
So I look really goofy for a couple of weeks in school.
I mean, that's bad enough.
This is mental.
She put makeup on you?
Yeah, she was absolutely mental.
My mother was absolutely mental.
I had very, very bad memories of my mother, quite horrible memories.
Also, my mother screaming at me, foaming at the mouth, telling me, She hated me, that I ruined her life.
And this is a 13, 14 year old me where she's just completely berating me that I'm a horrible person.
So she was kind of psychotic, right?
Yeah, she was absolutely mental.
She was, yeah, there was a lot wrong with my mother.
Wow.
Again, really sorry about this as a whole.
It's just, it's monstrous.
And your father, I assume, of course, was equally mental in terms of the distance.
And you had mentioned something about autism.
Yeah, I think so.
But recently, like a couple of years ago, I had lots of conversations with my father.
I didn't see my father for a very long time.
Only a couple of years ago, I reconnected.
And I also tried to reconnect with him and just try to talk about the past, how I've not what objectively happened, but just my feelings about that time.
And I was just completely shut down.
Like he loved me, he was a great father.
And anything that goes against his narrative is just me imagining things.
Yeah, so he's still a liar and dissociated.
Well, I don't dare to say that because I would just imagine him screaming, How dare you if I would say that to him?
But your words, not mine, but maybe.
Okay.
How did you tell me about the history of your relationship with your parents in a while?
What time do you want to zoom in?
I mean, from 16 onwards.
16 onwards, from 16 onwards, my relationship with my parents was really, really bad.
So they decided I should live with my sister.
So from 16 on, I went to live with my sister for two years until I was 18.
And then I started living on my own.
I had a little bit of connection with my parents then, like Christmas and birthdays, et cetera.
But I, from I think about 21, 22, I broke contact.
With them.
And I didn't reconnect with my father.
I still have not reconnected with my mother, and I have no intention to.
But I reconnected with my father, I think, five to six, five years ago, I think.
And why did you, or what were the circumstances of reconnecting?
Breaking Contact With Toxic Parents00:15:47
I think it was kind of, I was just curious how he was.
And I was just, I missed him.
So I just wanted to reconnect.
And we talked, and It was very nice talking to him again.
And I do love my father very much.
Oh, my God, man.
Oh, my God.
You're killing me.
You're killing me.
All right.
So tell me, I'm happy to explore this.
Tell me what you love about your father.
He's very smart.
He's very intelligent.
He did a lot of stuff for me.
Although, he did not show me affection in a lot of ways, but.
And in a lot of ways, he did.
Like in the ways that he could, he did provide for me very well.
I live in a house now.
My father, I could live in a house because of my father.
So, yeah, my father has given me a lot.
So he is smart and he gives you some shelter?
Yes.
Those aren't virtues.
What else?
We see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, like politics, etc.
Although I don't really care about politics anymore.
All right.
So, what are his virtues?
He is straightforward.
He speaks truth in a lot of ways.
He's not afraid to be the odd man out.
He's not afraid to be.
He's brave.
I think he's brave.
He's a brave man.
He's very hardworking.
He's quite conscientious.
Yeah, he's kind of like an old school Clint Eastwood kind of type of guy.
He's tough in some sense.
Tough?
What the fuck are you talking about?
He let his wife put makeup on you.
Yeah.
Will you help me understand?
I feel like I'm in an opposite universe here.
She screamed at you.
Did she hit you?
No, you said you only got hit twice, right?
Yeah.
So your mother screamed at you, terrified you, put you.
In makeup, sent you to school.
You were bullied for years.
What did your father do about you being bullied?
If he's a tough guy, right?
He went to the school and tried to, yeah, on the school, try to work it out with the teachers.
But yeah, it didn't really help me in that, like, hey, if they come to you, I'm going to teach you how to box, you beat them up or stuff like that.
He didn't do.
Oh.
Sorry, your big tough guy father went to teachers.
Yeah.
I also think he went to another, he had to talk with another few parents, one or two parents, I think.
You think?
Yeah, I can't remember anymore.
Okay.
So did he help you with this?
Not really.
No.
And it went on for years, right?
It went on, it never stopped.
It started when I was four or five and it never stopped.
Okay.
So 10, 12, 14 years, right?
Your father.
Did not stop it, did not do anything decisive to help.
No.
No, I guess not.
Sorry, what do you mean you guess not?
This is what you're telling me.
I'm not trying to impose something on you.
No, he didn't.
So you can't even protect his son who's getting makeup put on him by his psychic wife.
Help me understand what I'm missing here.
You said he became so cold that you became a child male prostitute.
You begged him for affection, he gave you nothing.
He marries a psycho woman who screams at you and puts makeup on you, and you're trying to sell me a virtuous guy here?
No, but.
No, honestly, like, I feel like I would assume, based upon this call, that you'd never listen to my show in the past.
And listen, it's not like you have to agree with me on anything or everything, but it's kind of weird to not even reference.
It's kind of weird to not even reference any of the arguments that I've made that you've been listening to, apparently, for 19 years.
So, what is my definition of virtue?
No, sorry.
What is my definition of love?
Let's do that.
A definition of love, I knew this one by heart.
It's the, I know it in Dutch, it's the involuntary response in the appearance of another to virtue.
It's an involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous, right?
Yes.
Okay.
So, when you say that you love your father after you spent, what is it, 40 minutes complaining with great justice and bitterness about your absolutely horrible childhood.
Which is just terrible.
I mean, honestly, you've had one of the worst childhoods I've heard of on this show, and I've been doing this a long time.
Yeah.
So your father presided over a psycho wife.
He himself was cold and distant, and so cold and distant, and unfeeling and unaffectionate that you ended up selling your body to fucking crypt keepers when you were in your mid teens.
Yes.
And you're going to tell me that he's a virtuous guy.
And you love him.
Also, he wouldn't listen to you when you talked about your childhood.
And also, when I pushed back a little bit against him, you said you could hear him screaming in your head.
Yes.
And this is also why I'm not like fighting for my father.
There's a reason why I broke with him.
You just, no, listen, all I can do, I can't read your mind.
I can only go with what you tell me.
Yes.
And you tell me that you really love your father and he's a virtuous guy.
I don't know if he's virtuous.
No.
But I do.
You just said five minutes ago that he's virtuous.
Don't gaslight me.
I'm not sure.
Yeah, you're gaslighting me.
You're right.
You're gaslighting me.
Don't do that.
Don't do that.
See, this is why it's tough for people to get to know you because you keep switching.
And I'm not, you know, it's because you've been a listener for a long time, I'm going to have higher standards for the conversation, right?
That's fine.
So, what the fuck?
What's going on here?
If you're going to say, my father, okay, was your father a child abuser or neglector?
He wasn't a.
Yeah, he was, I think.
Okay, I mean, it is child abuse to send your child into an environment where he's being relentlessly and horrendously bullied for 10, 12, 14 years.
That is abusive.
It is abusive to let your wife put makeup on your boy and send him to school.
So you're a tall, gangly kid with blush, lipstick, and mascara.
It is abusive to let your wife scream at your child and call him horrible names and shred his confidence and self esteem.
Tell me if I'm wrong about any of this, and I'm happy to debate.
No, you're not wrong.
You're not wrong.
Okay, so what is.
The second worst form of abuse here, I'll give you my quizzes here, right?
The worst form of abuse is sexual abuse.
What is the second worst form of abuse?
Physical?
No, physical is the least bad.
The worst is sexual abuse.
The second worst is neglect.
The third worst is emotional abuse.
The least worst is physical abuse.
So, your father, at least listen, I'm not saying, again, I'm not saying you have to agree with my definitions.
That's fine.
But it's weird to not even reference them as if I've never said anything on the subject.
Now, you may say, Steph, this may come as a bit of a surprise to you because I know that you have a different opinion or a different argument, but I am going to claim that I love my father.
This will be surprising to you, and let me tell you why.
Nope, you're just like, yeah, this guy was a horrible child abuser and he was horribly neglectful.
He drove me into the arms of predatory older men who paid me for gruesome sex, but I love him.
So, are you, I mean, were you aware when you're talking about how great your father is, were you aware?
That I was going to have something to say about that quite strongly.
I think you're, you're, I didn't, was not aware that the conversation would take this turn, but yeah, I'm aware that it was a turn.
Don't gaslight me.
Don't gaslight me.
It's not that this conversation took a turn.
You said things that are the exact opposite of everything I hold moral.
And again, you're perfectly free to say things that are the exact opposite of everything I hold moral.
I'm just asking, were you aware, having listened to me for almost 20 years, were you aware when you talked about the coldness and cruelty of your parents that when you said that you loved your father, that I would be surprised and shocked and have something to say about it?
That's all I'm asking.
Were you aware of that?
Absolutely.
So you were absolutely aware that I was going to rail against you claiming to love your father?
Yes.
How would I know that?
You didn't say anything.
You didn't say, oh, Steph, you know, this is going to come as a surprise to you and let me just sort of frame it or anything like that.
You just said it blandly as if it was just normal and natural.
Well, to give you a bit more of the story, I said all these things.
I wrote letters to my father where I explained all these things.
I broke with him because of these things.
I also made your arguments against my father and said, This is the reason why I'm breaking with you.
And also, the love, it started a few years ago.
No, but he hasn't changed.
More and more.
Hang on.
He hasn't changed.
He's still rejecting your entire experience as a child, right?
Yes.
So if you hated him before and he hasn't changed, how do you love him now?
Again, I'm happy to hear the answer.
I just don't follow it.
I don't really have a good answer for you.
Well, what's your bad answer?
Christ, I have become a Christian and I think it's important to love your parents.
And I can't deny that all the horrible things that have happened, they have happened and I felt them and I've mourned for it.
Well, why wouldn't you tell me that you had become a Christian and give me that context for the discussion?
I want to, but there's a lot of context to give.
Well, no, no, but you don't give the details without the context.
Otherwise, it's just confusing.
So, if you say, Well, the reason, like if you'd said to me, Steph, the reason now that I love my father, who formerly I hated and didn't have contact with, is because I've become a Christian and I want to obey the honor of their mother and their father, although that's a bit confusing, right?
Because why would you honor your father but not your mother?
That's a good point.
No, I'm just curious because it's confusing, right?
If you say, Well, it says honor thy mother and thy father, and I think the mother goes first.
So, It's a bit confusing if you say, well, it's because I'm a Christian.
And because you also told me that you don't have any contact with your mother.
And I think you said, and I never will.
That's correct.
So why would you honor your father but not your mother if it's a Christian commandment, which includes both?
And again, I'm sorry to be a nitpicker.
I'm just trying to navigate this quite challenging conversation.
Maybe the most honest answer I can give you is that I don't know why I love him.
The last few years I've grown to love him.
Okay.
All right.
So you just have an emotion that has no cause.
And I will also, you and I both know directly and incontrovertibly that you are only able to be in a relationship with your father if you bear false witness, which unfortunately contradicts another commandment, right?
Because you have to lie about your childhood and your experiences and not tell him the truth about what you think and feel about your childhood.
So you're only in a relationship with your father because the moment I. Expressed anything critical, you immediately said, Oh, I can hear my father screaming in my ear, or something like that, right?
Yes.
So you're only able to be in a relationship with your father because you lie to him.
Because if you told the truth, he would scream and reject and attack you, right?
Well, he has also recently, not like two, three years ago.
I also said it, and I also got a tax word and denied and said that it's not true, that he loved me very much.
He did everything for me that he could.
I know that's not true.
Does he know that's not true?
Does he know that's not true?
Yeah, he knows that.
Yeah.
So he knows that.
And he's so what is his answer as to how you became a child prostitute if he was a perfect father?
I don't think he likes to think about that too much.
I don't think he has an answer for that.
Well, nobody likes to think about it, but you told me he's a brave guy.
So he can't be frightened of little things or even big things like that if he's a brave guy.
If he's a brave guy, then he'll.
Step up in a manly fashion and talk about things that are difficult, right?
You're right.
And actually, you're right.
I shouldn't say that he's brave because he's brave in some things, but he's not a brave man as a virtue.
No.
Okay.
In what things is he brave?
Confronting people.
Not confronting me or the past, but confronting other people.
He can be direct, I should say.
He's very direct.
But that's not a virtue.
Are you still there?
Yes.
Sorry.
Could you give me an example of.
Something that he is brave about or has confronted someone about that you know of?
Actually, I can't, Stefan.
No.
You ask me, what are the virtues of your father?
And I say some stuff that rings true to my ear.
But if you ask me to really examine it, I can't really give you tangible examples of virtues.
No, I can't.
You're right.
Okay.
All right.
Got it.
Okay, so how is it that I can best help you in the time that we have left?
I don't really know.
What was it, do you think, that most prompted you to want to have the call?
Because it sounds like we just have very different definitions of many things, which is not good or bad.
It just means that we have different definitions of love and loyalty and Christianity and so on.
I don't believe that Christianity says that you should be.
Relentlessly affectionate towards people who are unrepentant sinners.
Is your father a Christian?
No, he's not.
Okay.
And he has not, as far as I understand it, he has not accepted fault for the wrongs that he did.
No, he has not.
No.
So he is an unrepentant sinner who's not a Christian.
Contradictory Definitions Of Love And Loyalty00:10:04
Is that right?
Yes, that's right.
And does, I mean, according to what you understand about Christianity, and of course, I'm not any kind of fundamental expert on Christianity, is it your understanding?
That Christ or Jesus commands you to love unrepentant sinners the same as you would somebody who has repented and accepted Jesus?
I don't think so, no.
Okay.
So if unrepentant sinners, your mother, I assume, is also an unrepentant sinner, is that right?
Very much, yes.
She has not changed in the most fundamental ways, no.
So why is your father acceptable and worthy of love and your mother acceptable?
Is it sounds like sort of very negative?
You have a very negative relationship with your father, with your mother, and you don't, um, you don't have any contact with her.
So, what is the difference?
I assume that they're not still together, right?
No, they're not together.
No, they got a divorce when I was about 15, 16.
And you know why they divorced?
Um, I was glad when they divorced.
I don't know why they didn't divorce.
Let's put it that way.
Um, they never loved each other, never.
That happened if they were able to hang on for 15 or 20 years.
Or do you know anything specific that happened?
Prior to the divorce?
I think it was just a drip that overflowed the bucket.
I don't know what exactly caused it, but I think it was just, it was never happy.
It was never good.
And I think my dad just could not take it anymore.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
So if you don't have anything particular to work on, I can mention something to you that might be helpful based upon.
What you called in with.
Okay.
So you called in feeling isolated.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, I can tell you why you're isolated if you want to know.
Okay.
Because you are consorting with an evildoer and you are claiming to love an evildoer.
And if a good and healthy and virtuous person comes around and you tell that person the truth about your childhood and your father, and then you say, But I love my father and I enjoy spending time with him and I'm glad he's in my life, what will the good and virtuous person think and feel about that?
Confused, I guess.
No, not really.
No, not really confused.
It's just a rank contradiction, right?
Yes.
So they will say, You love the person who has done the most harm to you of anyone in the world.
Maybe, you know, lumping him in with your mother because they're a system, right?
There's no one good parent and one bad parent, right?
So they would say, Okay, so you love the person who's done the most harm to you and has never even admitted fault or repented.
Or made restitution or anything like that, right?
Yes.
And can I maybe add something?
Yeah.
I broke with my father since I don't really love you.
And that time, but I broke with him, I was ever more alone.
I spent every Christmas alone.
I didn't have much friends.
I didn't have any family.
I completely broke with all my family.
And that broke me so much.
And I was, when I, after so many years of breaking with my father, I had another encounter with him and a talk with him, and that was fun.
That was okay.
And I guess I'm just happy to have at least some family again, to not have to spend Christmas alone again, to have some support system behind me again.
And I think that was a long time.
From what age to what age were you not talking to your father?
From 2022 to about 30.
For about eight years, I didn't speak to him.
Okay.
And what efforts did you make to find better people over that time period?
I, well, work, sports, friends.
But yeah, the more I, yeah, I kind of lost a lot of friends because I didn't see eye to eye with a lot of people.
And so, but when I kind of, my dad came back in my life, I was quite happy that I at least had someone again.
Okay, but you do understand that if you have an unrepentant child abuser in your life, it's going to keep good people at a distance.
Do you really think that the only way I can have good people in my life is if I break with my father?
Well, no, that's not what I said.
What did you say then?
If you have unrepentant child abusers in your life, it's going to keep good people away.
Right?
Do good people want to be in an environment with someone who says, I love the man who Who abused me as a child, even though he's never admitted any fault and attacks me if I talk about it now.
I mean, that's just straight up Stockholm Syndrome, right?
She put it like that.
No, I don't think so.
Right.
And listen, I mean, people will have sympathy, of course, right?
I mean, I have sympathy for sure.
But it's morally just too contradictory.
Yeah.
And I lived with that conviction for eight years, but it only made me more unhappy and more alone and more.
Because also, you don't want to be friends with someone who has nothing, who has no support system, who has no.
Friends, who has no family, who has nothing.
Well, so then we have the problem of what you said with regards to selling your body when you were 16, that you felt that you were worth nothing, right?
Yeah, I felt I was unlovable.
And that comes from your father and your mother.
Yeah.
And yeah, exactly.
Now, why do you think you have no emotion when talking about these things?
Do you mean I have no emotion?
Do you want.
I've cried many years for this.
My tears are all cried up.
Well, yeah, I mean, tears aren't the only emotion, right?
Well, I'm not unemotionally sitting here.
There's a lot of emotions going through me.
Okay.
Yeah, well, listen, if the choice is between bad company and no company, I can understand why you would choose bad company, right?
Yeah.
And if you had said to me, listen, I tried my very best to get friends for eight years.
And to date and to get a boyfriend or girlfriend or something like that, I'm just, for some reason, I'm completely unable to form any kind of bonds with anyone.
And I'm sort of left with my child abuser as the only person who might be in my corner.
Hey, listen, I mean, I can sympathize with that and I can certainly understand where you would be coming from.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, that makes sense.
But what you said to me was, I love my father.
Yeah.
Because that's easier to say than what you just said.
But what you just said is just not.
Well, no, it's not easier.
It's just not honest.
No, it's not honest.
So, this is why it's tough for you to have, I think, like sort of the highest quality people in your life, is because you say things that just don't make much sense.
And then people, like, I'll puzzle it out with you because this is kind of my job, right?
So, I'll sit here and say, well, hang on a second.
Why would you describe a 50 plus year old man who preyed upon a vulnerable, broken, and bullied child?
And paid him for sex.
Like, why would you say he was sweet and nice?
Like, that's just contradictory, right?
Does that make sense?
Yes.
And then you say, well, my father was vicious to me and cold and let his wife scream at me and call me horrible names and put me down and then put makeup on me and didn't deal with, you know, 10, 12, 14 years of bullying and so on and didn't protect me from online internet pornography and hyper sexuality and so on, right?
Just an appalling parent.
I got to get.
I'm a father myself.
This is fucking wretched parenting.
This is just horrible, horrible, horrible parenting.
Your childhood was almost pure torment, isolation, loneliness, and self horror from beginning to end.
Yeah.
And it hurts me a lot if I say this to my father that he just denies it.
He says, No, you were loved and I did everything I could.
And it's just.
Which puts more of a burden on you, right?
Because then the only reason you're unhappy is because there's something wrong with you, right?
Yeah.
Right.
That's terrible.
Yeah.
That feels terrible.
Right.
Yeah.
So he's still.
Sacrificing you for his own emotional comfort, right?
Yeah.
And also, yeah, my father remarried.
And also, I told that story.
And also, the wife of my father heard that.
So you told that story.
Hang on, hang on.
Which story?
That I prostituted myself and I was very unloved, that I was very bullied, et cetera.
Somewhat the story I told you.
Okay.
And she was, her first reaction was, Oh my God, you grew up completely unloved and then you must have looked for love in all the wrong places.
And that turned into, I think you're misremembering it.
Sorry, what she turned in?
She then said, Lady, you're misremembering it?
Yeah.
Oh, after she talked to your dad?
Yeah, she says, I believe you're misremembering stuff.
Okay, so she sided with your dad and said that you were lying about things?
Biblical Commandments Versus Personal Truths00:03:42
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
And do you love her too?
I want to.
Okay.
So you love the man who did the abuse and you have a tough time loving the woman who didn't do the abuse but thinks you're misremembering?
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
Is there anything else that I can help you with?
I don't know.
I mean, I'm trying to understand what it is that you want to get out of the call.
And I'm making a case for things, and obviously it's a free will situation.
It sounds like you don't particularly accept what it is that I'm saying, which is totally fine.
Of course, you can.
Can you say what I'm not accepting?
Well, it was a lot of fighting, in a sense, or conflict to get you to admit that the guy who preyed on you when you were 16 was not kind, not nice.
We've had.
A fair amount of back and forth on the nature of love and whether your father is worthy of love.
And so I think we're just coming at it.
You're taking a biblical commandment and applying it to your father, not your mother, of course, but to your father.
And I'm not a biblical commandment guy.
Like, as you know, I'm a moral philosopher from first principles.
So if you are taking a biblical commandment as the root of your behavior, then I think it would make more sense to talk to a priest.
Than a moral philosopher, because we're just coming at things from very different perspectives, right?
If the perspective is, well, the commandment is to honor thy mother and thy father, and so you have to love your father no matter what, then you know that's not at all where I'm coming from, right?
You're right.
If you say that way, it does expose a huge flaw in my thinking.
No, no, no.
I'm not saying it's a flaw.
I'm not saying it's a flaw.
I'm just saying that if you have a moral commandment from God, That has you believe that's why you have to love your father, but not your mother, then you have.
No, but.
Sorry, go ahead.
What I mean is that I don't follow a commandment of God.
It's something I like to say because it makes things easier for me.
It makes things nice and cushy, but that's not what I'm doing here.
I don't know what you mean.
Sorry, you are or aren't telling the truth about that?
I'd like that to be the truth, but it's probably not true.
You know, my head is spinning, right?
Sorry, yeah.
I don't know which way is up anymore.
I really don't.
Like I said, love is our involuntary response to virtue.
I think we showed that your father is not virtuous, although you tried to give me a bunch of his virtues and then you backed off some of them.
And then you said it was the biblical commandment.
And now you're saying it's not the biblical commandment, but it's something you say.
So I can't really have conversations with just stuff that you say that isn't true.
Does that make sense?
That makes sense, yes.
Right.
Okay.
So I'm not sure what to do with the conversation if.
When you say things to me and they sound like the truth, or they sound like that's what you believe to be the truth.
And then if you say, well, no, no, that's not really the truth.
That's just something I like to say.
That's a little tricky, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that's tricky.
That's true.
You're making me nervous.
I'm not trying to be mean, honestly.
I'm really not.
I mean, it's fine.
It's an interesting conversation.
It's just that this is probably why it's tough for people to be in your life because.
The stories are just all over the place.
Mothers Dismissing Serious Problems00:02:28
And they kind of contradict themselves.
And then, and listen, I completely sympathize with this.
You have the response of someone who's going to get the shit kicked out of him if he gives the wrong answer.
And again, I say this with deep sympathy for your childhood and so on, right?
Because when I, and this sort of comes out when I sort of criticize your dad and you said, I can hear him screaming in my head or whatever it is, right?
So people who are under threat tend to lie.
I did as a kid and you did as a kid because telling the truth is.
Way too dangerous.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
And that's something I really have struggled with.
Yeah.
Like you couldn't say to your mom, get this fucking makeup off me, you crazy bitch, right?
No.
Or some gentler form of that, like, I don't want to have makeup in the morning.
Because what would have happened if you'd have said to your mom, don't put makeup on me?
It's wrong.
It's not helping my social status, to put it mildly, right?
Yeah.
So, and if you'd gone to your father and said, if your mom like insisted, I mean, what would your mom say if you said, I don't want to?
Wear makeup.
I think she didn't really care what I wanted.
I think she only cared about what she said.
I think she would just make up a reason.
I think I also said it a couple of times, but did she just?
I had no say in the matter.
Really?
Right.
Okay.
Got it.
So your mother would just do what you wanted.
And if you were to insist, what would happen?
Like, mom, put away the makeup.
I'm not wearing makeup.
Stop it.
Like, I'm not doing it.
Like, what would happen?
She would get angry and then get verbally abusive with me, tell me she hates me, scream at me.
Okay.
Like, not things you want as a kid that's completely socially isolated.
Oh, it's terrifying.
Yeah, it's terrifying.
So, you would rather get makeup put on you than have your mother say she hates you, because if your mother says she hates you, your chances of survival from an evolutionary standpoint go way down, right?
Yeah, I think that's it.
Okay.
I'm just trying to stop that.
And what if you were to go to your father?
If you were to go to your father and say, Can you talk to mom like the makeup thing is weird?
I'm not a girl.
Like, you need to talk to mom and you need to get this stuff sorted out because this is just bizarre.
What would your father say?
Untruthful Choices And Family Dynamics00:12:05
I can't really.
I don't really know.
But it wouldn't be positive.
I think it would be dismissive.
I think it would, Oh, she just does it for this.
Oh, it would be a dismissive answer.
It would be dismiss me and just downplay the problem.
So you wouldn't get help?
No, I would not get help.
Right.
So you couldn't tell the truth.
And when you tried to tell the truth, like you said to your father, I am really missing having affection from you and let's do things together, you would just be ignored, right?
Yeah.
And I also, the email and the letters I sent him, like, this is the reason why I'm breaking with you.
He also said, like, I didn't understand anything from it.
It was just very weird.
And I also believed that he believed that.
Because he also showed those letters to his neighbor at the time, who lived next to us.
He's like, This is so weird that he does that.
I have no clue why he's doing this.
And so that is, yeah, he really believes that.
He's really, that makes it very difficult.
Because I really believe that he truly believes that he was a great father and he did everything he could.
I really believe that he believes that.
Well, who knows?
I mean, we can't read his mind.
So there's no way to know what he does or doesn't believe.
We just know that everything he does believe.
Is convenient to his narrative.
Everything he does believe is the easiest and most comfortable and most pleasant thing for him to believe.
That is true.
Yes.
So I don't think he really believes it because it's just all too convenient for him, right?
Maybe.
Well, no, it is.
Sorry, I thought you disagreed that it was convenient to him.
Yeah, or maybe it is so delusional in that sense.
Maybe.
No, no, because delusions could go either way.
Delusions could be like, oh, I was the worst father in human history, right?
That could be a delusion.
He's probably not the worst father in human history.
But if the delusions always go one way that perfectly serves the ego, right?
Yep.
Then it's not accidental.
It's not random.
That is true.
That is true.
So, yeah.
So, the way that you respond in conversation is with the perception that you are under dire threat for giving the wrong answer, which is why you say things that are convenient and things that sound good or things that you wish were true.
But you can't be direct and honest because you grew up under such threat.
I think that's exactly true.
That nails hammer on the head.
Right.
And so, because Again, and I say this with great sympathy, but because based upon prior assaults, aggressions, neglect, and trauma, because of that, you have to not think about what is true and honest and direct.
You have to speak under condition of threat.
That if you say the wrong thing, if you get something wrong, you're going to die.
Because that's, I think, how it was when you were growing up.
Or that the perception was parental abandonment is the fear of death, right?
Yeah, especially as a child.
Yeah, it felt like that.
Right, right.
So I would say that one of the reasons it's tough for you to connect with people is because everything has to go through a filter of will I get attacked and destroyed for being honest?
I think that's true.
Yeah, I do.
I did lie a lot about silly things.
Well, hang on.
See, I hear what you're saying.
And of course, technically, you're right, but lying.
Generally, it is a moral judgment based upon a voluntary situation, if that makes sense.
How do you mean that?
Well, so if a guy says to a woman, Hey, I want to be your boyfriend, and we're going to have a wonderful life together, and maybe we can get married and have children, when all he does want to do is sleep with her, that would be lying, right?
Yeah, absolutely.
And no one's forcing him to do that.
True.
If.
A man has his children kidnapped and then is forced to defraud someone.
Like maybe he's the manager of a bank, right?
And some robber kidnaps his children and says, You need to get this amount of money transferred.
And the man calls up the bank and pretends that he needs this money transferred and so on, right?
And gives the passcode and tries to make some jokes and appear normal because he's terrified his children are going to be harmed, right?
Is he lying?
Not really, technically, but no.
Well, he wouldn't.
I mean, if he was choosing to defraud someone, he would go to jail.
In that situation, I don't think he would.
No, I don't think so either.
So when you say that you're lying without taking into the context that you were under dire threat of abuse, abandonment, neglect, destruction, then I would be hesitant to say that you were just lying.
Yeah.
Although it doesn't feel like that.
Sorry, it doesn't feel like you were just lying.
Like for no particular cause.
Yeah, because that's kind of what I hear, and I can get.
Yeah, the attack on me is that I always lied as a kid.
Well, I would not say that you lie.
I say that you grew up under a situation of a death threat.
Somewhat, yeah.
Well, I mean, what do you mean by somewhat?
Well, yeah.
I mean, I get that your parents weren't hanging you over a bridge.
I fully understand that.
Yeah.
But if your mother says, I hate you, and your father doesn't intervene, then that's really disastrous.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think the problem is, of course, when you're around your father, you are reactivating that threat because you have to lie.
With your father.
Yes, I have to lie with him.
That is true.
I can't explain.
Also, after all these years, I do still feel the need to tell him and to talk about how it was in the past.
And that's also something I did.
Even after our relationship was, quote unquote, kind of going well, I still tried to put it on stake to have a talk about it and really dive into the past.
What happened here?
Why were you this way?
And yeah, the answers were very.
Disappointing, not even disappointing, but really, like you said, convenient for him.
I lie.
He just did the best he could.
And I was just a terrible child.
That's kind of the stretch of it.
Right.
So, I mean, that's the price of being around your father is that it is going to continue to reactivate this terror of telling the truth.
And if you have a terror of telling the truth, then it's going to be hard for honest people.
To be in your life.
Yeah, I think so.
I think that is true.
And so, listen, obviously, you can make your own choices.
My job, of course, is not to make any decisions for you, which I would never want to do, but it's simply to say the costs and benefits of that, of the decisions that you're making.
Yeah, although it feels like I don't have that decision anymore because the prospect of like finding other people, like in your 30s, that kind of drops dramatically.
It's hard to have.
People who can really integrate into your life at this stage in my life.
So I feel like maybe it's pragmatism where I just kind of grab what I can grab.
Because it feels like if I'd say to my father, like, hey, I really want to talk about the past.
And if we can't talk about it, like we're not going to talk.
I feel that I'm putting myself up for absolute.
I feel like deaf.
That's not, that's another deaf sentence.
Sure.
Sure.
Right.
No, I understand that.
And If you're going to make the decision to stay in contact with your father, obviously that's your decision.
And I can understand that eight years of not being in contact with others is very tough.
And I'm not going to try and just, hey, that's no big thing.
That is a big thing.
And I really sympathize with that as well.
But just, you can do whatever you want as long as you're conscious about it.
But my sort of general argument is it's really important to be conscious about it.
So if you choose to stay in touch with your father, the price of that is going to be that you're going to have to misrepresent things to him.
And you're going to have to not, obviously, not tell the truth and not.
Ask for any kind of apology or restitution or anything like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that does bother me a lot.
It does bother me because every full moon, I still think about it.
I still feel terrible about it.
I still feel I, and I always say to myself that I'm just being selfish.
It's just, why would I want acknowledgement for something that happened so long ago?
That's also what my father says because I'm grown up now.
I'm all grown up.
I have a good job.
I'm my own man now.
Why would I need that?
But there's still like a child inside of me that still really, really wants that.
It's still having an effect.
What about it?
Yeah, it still has an effect.
Sorry, go ahead.
Well, it still has an effect, absolutely.
What were you saying?
How old is your father?
62, 63.
Okay, got it.
Got it.
Okay.
Yeah, I mean, is his health good?
His health is good.
Yeah, his health is fine.
Okay, good.
Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, one of the problems with being closer to your parent than having a partner is because your father is going to die many, many decades before you do.
Probably.
And so that's a short term gain, long term pain, if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely.
That's true.
But also, I don't know if it will be mutually exclusive, like if I choose to remain in contact with my father.
But maybe, yeah, I don't know if I can really change that relationship, if I can really change my mind where I can just say, okay, like this happened, it really hurts me.
I'm kind of betraying myself or betraying my inner child, or however you want to call it, that I'm still having contact with him.
I'm not really being truthful.
I'm kind of, you said it better.
I can't really find your words.
How, yeah, is that really going to exclude me from having a partner?
And I don't know.
Well, I mean, no, you see, you can just be honest, right?
So if you say to me, I am full of love for my abusive.
Father who's never repented and screams at me or yells at me or insults me if I try to bring up the past or won't talk about it or whatever, right?
So if you say, look, I mean, my father has his problems, we have some good times together, I just have to ignore the past, and the problem is that I spent eight years alone and it's better to have someone than nothing.
Listen, that's honest, right?
The problem isn't the choices that you're making, particularly, that's not the major problem.
The major problem is that there's a lot of gaslighting and misrepresentation about it.
Like, I love my father and blah, blah, blah.
And this guy who statutorily raped me for money when I was 16 is a nice, kind guy.
It's not the choices, it's the falsehood or gaslighting about the choices that is going to keep people at bay, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's very hard to be honest because honesty has always equated death or dire consequences in the Middle East.
Gaslighting And Misrepresentation Of Trauma00:00:53
Right, right, right.
Okay.
Is there anything else that I could help you with?
I don't know.
I do want to thank you a lot.
Oh, my pleasure.
And I'm sorry if I was a little bit harsh.
I hope it was helpful.
It was very helpful.
It does put a lot of things into perspective.
And I have a lot of thinking to do.
Okay, good.
Well, I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going.
And I certainly do wish you the very best going forward.
And once again, I'm incredibly sorry about what happened to you as a child that should happen to no one.
And I'm just heartbroken about the way that it went down.
And obviously, I commend you on having a.
Pretty good life at the moment, despite this just awful start.
Well, thank you.
And just to reiterate, you helped me tremendously, Stefan.