Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - The Economics of Being in Love! Call In Show
Aired: 2026-04-17
Duration: 01:10:40


=== Background Noise and Land (11:08) ===

[00:00:00]  There we go.
[00:00:00]  Can you hear us?
[00:00:01]  Yes, we can still hear you.
[00:00:03]  And now you can hear us.
[00:00:04]  Yes, I'm so sorry.
[00:00:05]  Thank you very much for your patience.
[00:00:08]  I do apologize.
[00:00:09]  I'm obviously all ears.
[00:00:11]  You had a very short request for a topic, and I'm hearing a lot of background noise.
[00:00:16]  Are you in a car or outside?
[00:00:19]  Does that make it better?
[00:00:21]  But yes, we are relatively both of those.
[00:00:25]  And thank you for taking our call.
[00:00:28]  I'm sorry.
[00:00:28]  I'm just not sure what the background noise is because, as a public call, it's a little tough if there's a lot of background noise because people find it harder to.
[00:00:35]  Here?
[00:00:36]  I agree.
[00:00:37]  I don't hear any background noise.
[00:00:39]  Oh, at your end?
[00:00:41]  Oh, so you're just in a house or something like that?
[00:00:44]  No, we're in the car right now, but I'll pull off.
[00:00:47]  Actually, yeah, we're on the interstate, so it should be fine cellular quality, but I'll pull off the next thing so then we can avoid.
[00:00:55]  Do you hear some background noise?
[00:00:56]  Oh, you're in the car.
[00:00:57]  Yeah, there's background noise.
[00:01:00]  But okay, so do you want to just start telling me what the issues are?
[00:01:05]  Sammy, so we're using the name Sammy and Leroy for the purposes of the public call that you mentioned.
[00:01:13]  Got it.
[00:01:14]  Sammy and Leroy.
[00:01:15]  So, Sammy, I think, is a little bit obsessive about food.
[00:01:21]  To talk about that, I think.
[00:01:24]  I like to talk about veganism and plant based eating.
[00:01:28]  He's listening.
[00:01:29]  I have.
[00:01:29]  He said he's all ears.
[00:01:31]  Yeah.
[00:01:31]  So, usually he'll give people a few minutes to talk.
[00:01:34]  And then if he really wants to speak, he'll cut you off.
[00:01:39]  I believe animals should only be eaten sparingly.
[00:01:45]  And like if it's something that'll be good for your health, but that too many Americans consume way too many animal products and it ultimately ends up bad for their health.
[00:02:01]  Okay.
[00:02:02]  And is that a problem in your life as a whole or something like that?
[00:02:07]  It's a problem for the world from what it sounds like, right?
[00:02:10]  Like, did you want to tell him the problem?
[00:02:12]  It sounds like that's what he's asking for a more full, deep dive into this problem that you see in the world.
[00:02:19]  Well, there's animal consumption that takes up most of the crops in the world by the grain that is planted for the animals to eat.
[00:02:37]  It leaves a lot of people hungry because they could be using that land to plant food for themselves instead.
[00:02:46]  And there's so much meat that gets wasted and thrown away in grocery stores and things of that nature.
[00:02:54]  And it takes a lot of.
[00:02:57]  Oh, it sounds like Sammy wants to give me a talk to that time to talk.
[00:03:00]  And I would like to respond if you don't mind, Steph and Sammy.
[00:03:04]  Yeah, sure.
[00:03:04]  Are you guys close to the exit?
[00:03:06]  Because again, the background noise is quite high.
[00:03:09]  Apologies, I missed it.
[00:03:11]  Sorry, we don't even notice it.
[00:03:12]  So, is there a way that we can minimize the background noise?
[00:03:16]  Let's see, it says there's an exit coming up.
[00:03:18]  Okay, yeah.
[00:03:18]  So, sorry, go ahead.
[00:03:21]  So, we have some friends up in New England and Vermont who are nudists out in the woods and they grow pigs and they just fence off an area in the woods to grow these pigs up to the slaughter and they harvest them for the meat.
[00:03:34]  Sorry to interrupt, Sammy, but that would be an example of crops not being grown specifically to feed the pigs and they use a lot of waste food like expired food from restaurants and, and, uh, Groceries and stuff like that.
[00:03:45]  Sammy, what do you think about that?
[00:03:48]  I think that sounds like a really good way to consume the animal products if that's your choosing.
[00:03:57]  Yeah, I'm sorry to interrupt.
[00:03:59]  I'm a little confused about the purpose of the call.
[00:04:02]  Is it to debate veganism or is it because there are personal issues or I'm just not quite sure what we're doing as yet?
[00:04:09]  Well, Steph, there's been a perceived reality difference between us.
[00:04:16]  Sammy and myself, Leroy.
[00:04:18]  And what we're doing right now is talking about a specific item that we have a different reality on.
[00:04:28]  Does that make sense at all?
[00:04:29]  Well, yes, but I'm just trying to figure out what input I can provide us yet.
[00:04:34]  And I'm not quite sure, but just fine.
[00:04:35]  We're just getting to know each other.
[00:04:37]  So, what are the perceived reality differences?
[00:04:40]  What else do you have?
[00:04:42]  Okay, so.
[00:04:46]  Sammy, it sounds like Steph wants to direct the call away from global problems and more towards personal problems.
[00:04:54]  How does this food choice difference of how people invest their time and effort into growing food?
[00:05:02]  How is it personal for you?
[00:05:05]  Well, I believe animals have souls, and it hurts my heart to see a.
[00:05:19]  Soul gets wasted for just to be thrown in a landfill.
[00:05:26]  And so it's important to me that other people practice sustainability when they're consuming meat.
[00:05:38]  Okay, so our friends who harvest the pigs, does it hurt your soul that they grow and harvest pigs in the forest of Vermont near Canada there?
[00:05:47]  No, I think that sounds wonderful, actually.
[00:05:50]  And I'm sorry, do plants have souls or insects or where does the soul taper off?
[00:05:55]  I think this whole reality has a purpose beyond the physical substance of the material in it, including animals.
[00:06:07]  So, in that regard, I think as humans, we have a calling.
[00:06:11]  To follow the Holy Spirit and the instructions from our Creator to be good stewards of this reality that I'm in, with all of the substance in it, to be essentially good stewards.
[00:06:25]  And specifically, more tangibly, you might hopefully be interested in hearing we follow the calling of the Holy Spirit towards sharing and propagating peace, love, and liberty among the world around us.
[00:06:37]  And that's the three core principles that I think we have a calling to follow as.
[00:06:44]  As children of God, essentially?
[00:06:47]  Sorry, I'm not sure if you heard my question.
[00:06:50]  I'd be happy to hear it again.
[00:06:52]  Okay.
[00:06:52]  Do plants have souls as well, vegetables and other forms of plants?
[00:06:59]  And do insects have souls?
[00:07:01]  Do lizards have souls?
[00:07:03]  Do fish have souls?
[00:07:04]  I just want to make sure I understand where the soul aspect is or is not.
[00:07:09]  Sammy, I think that was more.
[00:07:11]  You're the one.
[00:07:11]  Sammy brought up the issue of the soul.
[00:07:13]  Do you want to talk about that or not?
[00:07:15]  She doesn't want to talk about that.
[00:07:17]  Sorry, I'm not sure.
[00:07:19]  Why wouldn't we?
[00:07:20]  I'm not skeptical.
[00:07:21]  I just want to understand the thinking.
[00:07:24]  I mean, obviously, we don't want souls to be harmed for wasteful reasons.
[00:07:28]  I'm just not sure where the soul's thing is.
[00:07:30]  Is it mammals?
[00:07:31]  Is it other forms of animals?
[00:07:33]  And I'm not sure why we.
[00:07:35]  Again, I'm not trying to catch you up or criticize.
[00:07:37]  I just want to understand the belief system.
[00:07:43]  So, I was talking about my beliefs there that all the matter, which is a minority of the existence, if you look at the space between matter, for example, and the other spaces that we don't have the perception to see.
[00:08:01]  So, this physical matter is what we're most intimately connected to.
[00:08:06]  So, we use it for this objective reality between us so that we can share reality.
[00:08:12]  And as far as the connection between all matter in this universe that we experience together, I'd say there is a connection that could be described as a soul that is able to interact, like the physical at the very least, through.
[00:08:33]  Through an infinite web of connections, I'd say all matter in this universe is connected, and the individual souls, I guess, of each piece of matter can interact.
[00:08:46]  So, as far as the soul, yeah, we'd need to define soul, is what it sounds like stuff you're asking about.
[00:08:51]  Well, I mean, I'm just trying to understand because we obviously can't exist as creatures without consuming organic matter.
[00:08:57]  So, if it's not animals, maybe it's lizards, or if it's not mammals, lizards, or amphibians, or fish, or plants.
[00:09:04]  And so, I assume that, and To me, it would be logical, and I'm certainly happy to be corrected, but I would assume that if it is wrong to eat creatures who have a soul, then there must be organic matter that doesn't have a soul, which I assume would be plants or maybe fish or something like that, seaweed.
[00:09:22]  Of course.
[00:09:22]  Right.
[00:09:23]  So I'm just trying to understand what you're thinking.
[00:09:26]  So Sammy and myself, we agree it's a personal choice how people interact in this world.
[00:09:34]  And as far as I think she's more speaking to the The harm of what a lot of people do with their choices, as far as monocropping, clearing land, using pesticides and chemicals that are definitely toxic in larger quantities.
[00:09:53]  And so the only question is whether little of it is being used, enough of a minimal harm.
[00:10:00]  So there's definitely harmful substances, monocropping.
[00:10:05]  And then, as far as from our shared perspective of the Shire Society Declaration and voluntarism, There's the peace, love, and liberty aspects.
[00:10:14]  So, for a large amount of land, for example, to be displaced from its natural use, the use that non humans would have put it to, I think that's a big cost.
[00:10:28]  The liberty of humans to be able to travel and use that land, and of course, the animals, which would be displaced.
[00:10:38]  So, ideally, what I think we wish the viewpoint we share is that nature.
[00:10:45]  And allowing as much of the natural use of land as possible would be optimal for the peace, love, and liberty of the most inhabitants around it.
[00:10:55]  As contrasted, for example, with cities, suburbs, and the farms that are monocropped, they remove the forest.

=== Food Issues and Rude Questions (10:19) ===

[00:11:08]  Am I making any sense to you guys?
[00:11:10]  I don't know.
[00:11:10]  Well, sure.
[00:11:12]  I'm just trying to understand, Sammy, why is it you didn't want to answer the question earlier about souls?
[00:11:18]  Persistent.
[00:11:22]  Well, maybe because it's fringe.
[00:11:24]  There's people out there that believe in the crystals and the frequencies.
[00:11:30]  Sorry.
[00:11:31]  Was Sammy the girlfriend or you or the wife?
[00:11:35]  Partner.
[00:11:36]  Yeah, we're partners.
[00:11:37]  Yeah, it's a little tough to have a conversation if the first question I ask doesn't get answered.
[00:11:43]  And I'm just No, no, but I was asking Sammy.
[00:11:48]  And you said she doesn't want to answer.
[00:11:50]  And if she doesn't want to talk about it, yeah, if she doesn't want to answer your question, that's, I think.
[00:11:54]  Completely valid for a caller, and that you have a right.
[00:11:58]  If you want to talk about that, you can.
[00:11:59]  Do you want to take a few minutes to explain how frustrated you are that she's not answering your question?
[00:12:04]  No, it's not frustrated.
[00:12:05]  It's just that if people don't answer questions, it's kind of tough to have a conversation.
[00:12:11]  Yeah.
[00:12:11]  And each of us, yourself, Steph, and myself, can monologue.
[00:12:16]  And you could argue that Sammy gave a short monologue there about her perspective, a little bit of an alternative belief on life and the soul, the consciousness that gets hurt by.
[00:12:27]  The monocropping and the poor stewardship that a lot of humans are just looking to.
[00:12:33]  No, no, I can't do the same monologue again.
[00:12:37]  So, is that an issue that you face?
[00:12:40]  This is to the boyfriend or partner.
[00:12:43]  Is that an issue that you face that if you have a question, she doesn't answer or doesn't want to talk about it?
[00:12:48]  Is that part of the conflict that you're having or the lack of connection that you're having?
[00:12:52]  For sure.
[00:12:53]  Yeah.
[00:12:53]  I agree with you that if someone doesn't want to talk, then that's a verbal issue.
[00:13:00]  That prevents some verbal intercourse from happening because verbal intercourse would be both.
[00:13:07]  That's fine.
[00:13:07]  Sorry, I didn't drop.
[00:13:09]  I was in the middle of the thing, but I'll let you take it.
[00:13:11]  Yeah, sorry, Sam.
[00:13:12]  It's dropped the soul thing.
[00:13:13]  That's totally fine.
[00:13:14]  Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and how you were raised?
[00:13:19]  It looks like she doesn't want to talk in your public call stuff.
[00:13:24]  Yeah, that's what the current state is.
[00:13:27]  Well, I'm now very baffled.
[00:13:29]  I'm sorry.
[00:13:30]  Did she not want to have the call at all?
[00:13:34]  Maybe not.
[00:13:36]  Maybe she wanted to talk about food and maybe she didn't want to dialogue as far as what you wanted to dialogue with her about.
[00:13:47]  Well, no, but that's just kind of rude, right?
[00:13:49]  I mean, if you make a speech in a conversation, then the person obviously can ask some clarifying questions to understand what you're saying better.
[00:13:59]  And then to withdraw from that is a little rude, isn't it?
[00:14:02]  Because then you're just saying, well, I have my way, I have my speech, and you can't ask me any questions.
[00:14:07]  That's not a dialogue.
[00:14:08]  That's just a speech.
[00:14:09]  It's a monologue, right?
[00:14:11]  Yes and no.
[00:14:13]  So, Steph, you could argue, yes, that she gave a monologue.
[00:14:17]  Yes, you were allowed to ask questions.
[00:14:20]  No, to your statement is clearly false that you can't ask questions.
[00:14:24]  Obviously, you can ask questions.
[00:14:26]  You ask questions.
[00:14:28]  So, I don't know.
[00:14:31]  You're asking me about this, right?
[00:14:32]  Yes.
[00:14:32]  You can ask us questions, but we reserve the right to not answer your questions.
[00:14:38]  Okay, but then it's not a conversation, and I don't know how to have a conversation with somebody who doesn't, who has a speech, and I have questions about it, so I can understand the mindset better.
[00:14:47]  And she just kind of shuts down.
[00:14:49]  That's kind of rude, isn't it?
[00:14:51]  Yeah, I guess you'd have to define the burdens and obligations of people in a relationship like this.
[00:14:58]  Well, if you're going to engage in a conversation, it's selfish to not let the other person have a voice at all.
[00:15:05]  Right?
[00:15:06]  It's selfish to say, I want to talk about food and monoculture and, and, and, Animals have souls, and you know, I didn't criticize it.
[00:15:13]  I'm happy to explore the idea.
[00:15:16]  And so, if you say, I'm going to engage in a conversation, but then you completely shut down when the other person asks a question, then it's kind of fraudulent because it's not, you don't actually want to engage in a conversation.
[00:15:27]  You just want to have a monologue, and you can't be questioned, and you can't get any feedback, and even friendly questions where I'm just trying to understand the mindset.
[00:15:35]  So, well, I'll be happy to continue talking with you if you're willing to have a conversation with me instead of a three way conversation.
[00:15:42]  Okay.
[00:15:42]  Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood?
[00:15:44]  what you experienced growing up.
[00:15:47]  For sure.
[00:15:47]  So I come from predominantly European.
[00:15:54]  My parent that raised me and my brother had a lot of Italian influence from her parents and growing up.
[00:16:02]  So we ate a lot of pasta.
[00:16:05]  I remember this Parmesan spinach noodle soup that was really amazing that we had.
[00:16:12]  It was like a Lipton package and then adding a frozen pack of spinach.
[00:16:16]  I'm so sorry.
[00:16:17]  I'm not exactly looking for the menu.
[00:16:19]  I'm just looking for your sort of personal.
[00:16:20]  Experiences and particularly from a moral standpoint, what kind of moral education did you get?
[00:16:24]  What kind of punishment did you get, if any, that kind of stuff?
[00:16:28]  So, generally, there's no punishment around food, which is the subject of this conversation food.
[00:16:33]  So, with food, my parents and close relatives, there was almost no limits.
[00:16:40]  I mean, I really apologize a million fold for being rude and interrupting you.
[00:16:45]  I'm really sorry about that.
[00:16:46]  But if the conversation is about your partner's issues with food, And she doesn't want to talk about or talk with me, which again is fine, then I'm not sure why we would switch to your issues with food because you don't really have any issues with food.
[00:16:59]  Does that make sense?
[00:17:00]  But like if you take your wife, hang on, if you take your wife to the doctor and you say, her elbow is really hurting, but she won't let the doctor examine it, then talking about your elbow doesn't make much sense unless I'm missing something.
[00:17:12]  Yeah.
[00:17:13]  So in order to discuss my partner's issues with food, I would like to discuss the overlapping areas where her issues with food becomes.
[00:17:24]  Involved with my life.
[00:17:27]  So the topic is food and her issues with food, but she won't talk about her issues with food or anything.
[00:17:33]  Is that right?
[00:17:34]  That's the current status, yeah.
[00:17:36]  I mean, do you really think there's a point?
[00:17:38]  I'm not quite, again, no disrespect.
[00:17:40]  Obviously, you know, people are free to talk to me or not talk to me.
[00:17:43]  That's totally fine.
[00:17:44]  But I'm also free to talk or not talk as well.
[00:17:46]  And I'm not really sure how we have a conversation about an issue if the person who has the issue doesn't want to talk.
[00:17:53]  Well, I have an issue with it.
[00:17:54]  And I was trying to talk about her issues with food and how it becomes an issue for me.
[00:17:58]  I apologize for being a little bit.
[00:18:00]  Yeah, that's fine.
[00:18:01]  So just tell me about your issues with her issues with food, if that makes sense.
[00:18:07]  Okay, you want to just dive right in?
[00:18:09]  Let's jump right into it.
[00:18:10]  Like, get into it, just raw dog it.
[00:18:11]  All right, I'm going to get into it.
[00:18:12]  Well, I mean, it's been 25 minutes.
[00:18:14]  I think we should start.
[00:18:15]  Yeah.
[00:18:16]  For sure.
[00:18:17]  But I also believe that the rules of this dialogue that we've been having for 25 minutes should be agreed to by all the participants.
[00:18:25]  And we did that.
[00:18:26]  So I'm going to jump into my issues with food, or specifically my issues with my partner's issues with food and how they overlap with my issues.
[00:18:33]  But so, as I was saying, I have eaten some really good food growing up as a child.
[00:18:42]  And Sammy has obviously eaten a lot of good food because she likes to continue eating good food.
[00:18:48]  And she will accumulate more good food that she can eat personally.
[00:18:55]  And then the food will go to waste.
[00:18:57]  And from my childhood, I guess my life, it's like we try to portion out what we're going to eat, and then whatever you put on your plate is what you eat.
[00:19:10]  And then to leave food on your plate and throw it away is almost like a sin.
[00:19:14]  Obviously, it's not a sin, but it's a waste of food.
[00:19:17]  And that's something she talked about in her monologue a little bit is how the waste, I think she might have touched on that, the waste of farming and whatnot.
[00:19:25]  So we share that belief that wasting food to some extent.
[00:19:31]  Could be bad as far as why.
[00:19:33]  It seems like she touched more on the wasting food, might only be bad if it's like animals, if the animals are being hurt and as souls are wasted.
[00:19:45]  Whereas, for my belief, which I tried to explain a little bit, was that wasting any kind of value, essentially, like when you harvest value, you don't put it on your plate and then throw it away.
[00:19:57]  Now, of course, there's sacrifice, which is a totally different subject.
[00:20:01]  If you did want to accept that blood sacrifice, specifically Jesus Christ being sacrificed for the sins that we've all made in life, I'd be happy to discuss that also.
[00:20:12]  But did I touch on my issues with her issues with food enough, or do you want to explore any of that?
[00:20:16]  Well, is there conflict between you as a couple on the issues of food?
[00:20:21]  Well, that overlaps with spending.
[00:20:23]  And so she'll spend all of her money buying things that are, some of them are more quickly going to waste.
[00:20:31]  And then others might take a longer time, but often go to waste.
[00:20:36]  So she doesn't like food waste and wastes food?
[00:20:39]  Again, I'm trying to follow here.
[00:20:41]  I mean, nobody likes food waste.
[00:20:43]  And occasionally you forget about something in the back of the fridge or whatever.
[00:20:46]  So that's going to happen, I think, to just about anyone.
[00:20:48]  But I'm still trying to figure out what the subject of the call is about.
[00:20:52]  Well, that's a good question.
[00:20:53]  I don't think she minds if it's like vegan food that's wasted, is the issue.
[00:20:58]  So she will accumulate and buy vegan food and let it go to waste.
[00:21:02]  And she wants me to buy the same, buy more of that.
[00:21:07]  Yeah, the issue is I don't eat a lot at one time.
[00:21:12]  And so Leroy usually has no problem eating my leftovers that are not able to fit inside of my digestive system.
[00:21:25]  I'll be right back.
[00:21:26]  You two can talk for a minute, please.

=== Military PTSD and Aggression (04:11) ===

[00:21:28]  I'm sorry.
[00:21:28]  Where are you going?
[00:21:29]  I'm going to buy gas.
[00:21:30]  I'm parked at a gas pump.
[00:21:32]  So I'm going to pay for the gas.
[00:21:33]  I'll stick the nozzle in.
[00:21:35]  It's really the strangest college show I think I've ever had.
[00:21:38]  That's fine.
[00:21:39]  That's fine.
[00:21:40]  Okay, Sammy.
[00:21:41]  So, do you want to tell me a little bit about your upbringing and what you experienced as a child?
[00:21:47]  Well, I came from like a rather redneck kind of family, I guess you could say.
[00:21:56]  And they always told me that God put animals on this earth so we could eat them.
[00:22:02]  But as a child, it just never felt right to me.
[00:22:06]  So it's something that's always been with me of not eating animals, just something that I felt like worked for my soul.
[00:22:16]  And I was shamed a lot for choosing not to eat animals and punished for it as well.
[00:22:29]  Okay.
[00:22:30]  And how were you punished?
[00:22:34]  Like my father would forcefully shove meat into my mouth because I didn't want to eat it.
[00:22:43]  Oh, gosh.
[00:22:44]  I'm so sorry.
[00:22:46]  So he would just jam food in your mouth and force you to chew or something like that.
[00:22:50]  Yeah.
[00:22:51]  Oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:22:52]  That's just appalling.
[00:22:53]  You know, it's so strange the conflicts that parents get into with their children about food.
[00:22:57]  It's all this weird, complicated, half fascist control of the body and all that kind of stuff.
[00:23:02]  But I'm really sorry.
[00:23:04]  That's just terrible, terrible behavior in my view.
[00:23:06]  Yeah, thank you.
[00:23:07]  I appreciate your kind words.
[00:23:12]  Were there other punishments in the house, like spanking or switches or confinement or timeouts or something like that?
[00:23:20]  Yeah, well, I was left isolated a lot.
[00:23:23]  Like, my parents would lock me out of the house and then go on vacation.
[00:23:31]  So it was really like I was left to fend for myself growing up as a child.
[00:23:36]  Like, I taught myself how to cook.
[00:23:38]  And taught myself how to do basically everything.
[00:23:44]  And there was a lot of yelling in my household.
[00:23:48]  So as an adult, I learned nonviolent communication and how to, you know, try to talk people down from their anger.
[00:23:58]  Okay.
[00:23:59]  And what about your mom?
[00:24:02]  What exactly about my mom?
[00:24:04]  Well, your father was pretty aggressive.
[00:24:07]  The yelling and so on was your mom doing that or was she physically aggressive?
[00:24:11]  As a parent?
[00:24:12]  Yeah, she was.
[00:24:16]  She, nobody in my family really understood my veganism, but she would tell me that I was ruining her life because it was more challenging to try to eat plant based and try to eat more holistic foods than going to your fast food restaurant all the time.
[00:24:37]  Right.
[00:24:37]  Okay.
[00:24:38]  And how often would you get punished as a child?
[00:24:41]  Um, I'm not sure exactly, um, I have a lot of PTSD, so it's hard to remember my childhood.
[00:24:53]  I'm sorry, is there PTSD from your childhood or other things?
[00:24:57]  Yeah, PTSD from my childhood, PTSD from military service and abusive relationships.
[00:25:10]  Oh, so you were a vegan, and it's an unusual combo to be a vegan and to go into the military, but okay.
[00:25:17]  And were you, I mean, just roughly, was it like once a month, once a week?
[00:25:21]  Twice a year, daily.
[00:25:23]  Again, I know it's hard to come up with exact figures, but I'm just trying to get a rough sense.
[00:25:28]  You would get punished as a child.
[00:25:30]  Daily.
[00:25:33]  If you count yelling as violence.

=== Abusive Relationships and Kids (03:28) ===

[00:25:39]  Yeah.
[00:25:39]  So, I mean, you were aggressed against considerably, like thousands of times as a child.
[00:25:44]  Correct.
[00:25:45]  I'm so sorry.
[00:25:46]  That's, you know, I have a daughter myself and it's incomprehensible.
[00:25:50]  I don't, I do not understand why parents do this kind of stuff.
[00:25:53]  It's, It's so ridiculously unnecessary and counterproductive and immoral.
[00:25:58]  And so then, did you join the military quite young?
[00:26:04]  It's hard for me to talk about my military experience.
[00:26:08]  Okay, no problem.
[00:26:09]  And how many, roughly, how many abusive relationships would you say that you were in before you got into this one?
[00:26:19]  Just one, really.
[00:26:21]  I was in a marriage for 10 years, but.
[00:26:24]  Talking about abusive relationships isn't really a subject that I would like to discuss right now.
[00:26:29]  Sure.
[00:26:30]  What's your status of your relationship with your parents at the moment?
[00:26:35]  I don't speak to my father, and my mother and I are on pretty good terms.
[00:26:41]  Are they still together?
[00:26:42]  No.
[00:26:44]  When did they split up?
[00:26:48]  When I was a young child.
[00:26:50]  So probably in like 1995.
[00:26:54]  Okay.
[00:26:55]  All right.
[00:26:55]  Were you in this?
[00:26:56]  You don't have to give me your age, but you were like in the single digits there?
[00:26:59]  Correct.
[00:27:00]  Okay.
[00:27:00]  Got it.
[00:27:01]  And do you know why they split up?
[00:27:04]  It was just toxic.
[00:27:08]  Like, I'm not really anything like my family.
[00:27:12]  I guess you could say I was the black sheep of the family, but just a lot of aggression and anger.
[00:27:18]  And that's kind of all I really knew growing up.
[00:27:21]  So, as an adult, I really wanted to.
[00:27:25]  Make my life more meaningful than the ways I experienced as a child.
[00:27:31]  Yeah, quite wise.
[00:27:33]  And how long have you guys been together as a couple?
[00:27:37]  We've been together for three months, but we've known each other a while.
[00:27:43]  Okay.
[00:27:44]  And what was it that had tipped you over from friends to partners?
[00:27:51]  Well, he's just a very intelligent soul.
[00:27:55]  And I kind of fell in love with him the moment I met him.
[00:28:01]  And yeah, we've just been best friends ever since.
[00:28:06]  And sorry, because you knew each other before three months ago, how long have you known each other?
[00:28:10]  Four years.
[00:28:11]  Wow.
[00:28:12]  And you fell in love with him four years ago.
[00:28:14]  You're a patient soul to wait almost four years.
[00:28:17]  Okay.
[00:28:18]  Yeah, thank you.
[00:28:19]  And have you talked at all about sort of the purpose and long term goal of your relationship?
[00:28:27]  We have discussed marriage.
[00:28:30]  And do either of you have any kids?
[00:28:32]  Yes.
[00:28:35]  Is that, I mean, if you don't want to talk about it, that's fine.
[00:28:37]  Is that you or your partner?
[00:28:40]  Yeah, that's something I'd rather not discuss right now.
[00:28:42]  Sure, no problem.
[00:28:44]  Okay.
[00:28:45]  And when you were friends, did you have any particular conflicts over these kinds of issues or have they shown up more that you're dating?
[00:28:57]  No, we never really had conflicts like that.
[00:29:01]  We get along quite nicely and we share a lot of similar values and goals.

=== Finances, Excess, and Marriage Goals (10:37) ===

[00:29:08]  Okay.
[00:29:08]  And do you want to have any more kids?
[00:29:11]  Yes, that's something that we've discussed.
[00:29:14]  Okay, got it.
[00:29:15]  And are you largely on the same page about peaceful parenting and this kind of stuff?
[00:29:20]  Yes, correct.
[00:29:21]  Homeschooling, all the tasty libertarian basis.
[00:29:26]  Okay.
[00:29:27]  All right.
[00:29:27]  And.
[00:29:28]  If you do get in conflicts as a couple, how often does that happen?
[00:29:35]  I'm not sure I really can say.
[00:29:37]  We're really working hard on developing our relationship and becoming stronger as a couple.
[00:29:43]  So, like, focusing on the positives and moving forward in a peaceful manner is really where I aim to be.
[00:29:54]  Okay.
[00:29:55]  So, you're getting along well as a couple, you both have similar values, and You want kids, you want to raise them peacefully.
[00:30:04]  I mean, it sounds great.
[00:30:07]  Thank you.
[00:30:08]  Oh, good, good.
[00:30:09]  All right.
[00:30:09]  Is there anything else that I can help you with?
[00:30:12]  Yes.
[00:30:14]  Well, frankly, budgeting for food is, I think, one of these conflicts that I'd like to discuss.
[00:30:22]  I think Sammy would like to budget closer to $3,000 a month on food, where I would be.
[00:30:30]  $3,000?
[00:30:31]  I'm so sorry.
[00:30:32]  I'm sorry.
[00:30:34]  I'm so sorry.
[00:30:35]  That's fine.
[00:30:35]  I'm just, the number is kind of staggering to me.
[00:30:38]  That's for two people.
[00:30:39]  Two, Steph.
[00:30:41]  I didn't finish my sentence.
[00:30:42]  No, no, it's okay.
[00:30:43]  I'm allowed to express surprise in the middle of your sentence.
[00:30:46]  I'm just telling you my honest response.
[00:30:47]  So go ahead.
[00:30:49]  So she's moved the needle.
[00:30:50]  I'll just say that currently I'm at about 1,000, that I think is a better budget target.
[00:30:57]  Okay.
[00:30:58]  Sorry, is there more that you want to add?
[00:31:03]  I agree to that.
[00:31:05]  So she's agreed to 1,000?
[00:31:07]  Oh, I feel like I'm doing my job without me, which is great.
[00:31:11]  I don't mind sitting back and watching it happen.
[00:31:14]  That will set a $1,000 a month cap on dining at restaurants and food and groceries and all of that.
[00:31:24]  Correct.
[00:31:25]  That includes money that either one of us spends on food.
[00:31:29]  $1,000 a month.
[00:31:30]  I'm sorry, are you guys living together?
[00:31:34]  Have you pooled your finances?
[00:31:35]  I mean, how is that working?
[00:31:39]  Sammy spends all of her money on whatever she wants to spend it on, and then she asks me to spend my money on whatever she wants me to spend it on.
[00:31:49]  Did you hear me, Hilla?
[00:31:50]  I did.
[00:31:51]  Sorry.
[00:31:51]  I think I heard Sammy laughing, and I wasn't sure if she wanted to add something.
[00:31:55]  Yeah, that was very laughing.
[00:31:57]  Yeah, doesn't sound like you say it as a bad thing.
[00:32:04]  Well, I don't know, Steph.
[00:32:07]  Did it sound like I was saying it as a bad thing?
[00:32:09]  Well, I mean, are you guys living together?
[00:32:13]  Well, we live next to each other, yeah.
[00:32:16]  Okay.
[00:32:17]  And have you pooled your finances?
[00:32:19]  No, no.
[00:32:21]  Okay, and do you have, again, don't get into details, do you have.
[00:32:25]  Different incomes or assets?
[00:32:27]  Yeah, obviously, Steph.
[00:32:32]  It's not obvious.
[00:32:34]  I'm just finding out for the first time.
[00:32:35]  Order of magnitude where she gets very limited monthly allowance.
[00:32:40]  And I have the ability to budget more every month than she does, a magnitude more.
[00:32:48]  Okay, so do you have like five times her income, or three times, or ten times?
[00:32:52]  Yeah, like ten times.
[00:32:53]  Okay, so you have ten times her income.
[00:32:55]  Maybe five times.
[00:32:56]  And she wants to call it 100.
[00:32:57]  I'm so sorry.
[00:32:58]  Go ahead.
[00:32:59]  Let's just call it 100 times just to make it more clear.
[00:33:01]  100 to 1.
[00:33:03]  You have 100 times her income.
[00:33:06]  I think that would be the best description.
[00:33:10]  Yeah.
[00:33:11]  All right.
[00:33:12]  Okay.
[00:33:12]  So you have 100 times her income, and she wants to spend more than her income and include your income in her spending.
[00:33:19]  And I'm sorry to talk to you, talk about you, Sammy, like you're not here.
[00:33:22]  Feel free to interject.
[00:33:23]  But is that the situation?
[00:33:28]  I don't think she has any disagreement with that description, except for that it, what would you say?
[00:33:35]  It makes you sound bad or something?
[00:33:38]  Well, I don't think so.
[00:33:39]  I mean, I'm so sorry, Seth, that you were about to say.
[00:33:42]  Oh, yeah, no, I was going to agree with you.
[00:33:44]  Thank you.
[00:33:45]  Okay.
[00:33:45]  Yeah.
[00:33:46]  So, I mean, why do men make more money in general?
[00:33:50]  Because that's how we've evolved, because we have to pay for a wife and kids, right?
[00:33:55]  I mean, you know, the sort of meme about the bachelor who lives on a futon and.
[00:34:00]  Has the TV stand on the box it came in, right?
[00:34:03]  I mean, men are satisfied with relatively little.
[00:34:09]  But we make 10 times what we need for ourselves so that we can provide for a wife and children.
[00:34:14]  So the fact that you, as the man, are expected to spend more in the relationship is reasonable, of course, if there's going to be a wife and kids, if that makes sense, which is generally why people get married, pool their finances, they know they're committed, they are husband and wife, they start making kids, and it's not.
[00:34:33]  Much of an issue because if a woman is raising three kids, four kids, or however many, then she can't work for money outside the home.
[00:34:42]  But the husband is like, well, I go out and I hunt and you raise the kids and I go out and I make money and you raise the kids.
[00:34:49]  And I mean, there's not much point as a man dying with a bunch of money in the bank and no children, right?
[00:34:53]  That doesn't make any sense as a whole.
[00:34:56]  So, yeah, so the fact that you as the man make a lot of money and she wants to spend some of that money, I think it kind of aligns with our evolution as a whole.
[00:35:05]  If that makes sense.
[00:35:07]  Yes.
[00:35:08]  So then it comes down to contracts, like we were discussing a little bit about the monthly food budget.
[00:35:14]  And there was a specific day this week, a few days ago, where I gave her $100 to go to and from a meeting that she had because the car could use some gas.
[00:35:24]  And I think the car couldn't have taken more than $20 or $30 of gas.
[00:35:29]  And I'd like to hear Sammy explain where she spent the $100 if you're willing to indulge me, if you too are willing to, and the rest of the world that's listening.
[00:35:38]  Yeah.
[00:35:39]  So when you first gave me the $100, you told me I could keep whatever change was there.
[00:35:46]  And so I got gas in the car, which was like $35.
[00:35:52]  And then I got coffee and breakfast, which I brought some back to you.
[00:35:59]  And then after Bible study, I got lunch.
[00:36:03]  Exactly.
[00:36:04]  And that was how much did you spend on the food there?
[00:36:10]  Well, I spent, I believe, about $40.
[00:36:18]  And you told me I could keep the rest of the change.
[00:36:23]  So you kept 25 bucks?
[00:36:25]  Yeah.
[00:36:27]  Okay, so that's the difference, I guess.
[00:36:29]  So if you spend $40 on breakfast and lunch, you extrapolate that out for 30 days, that's $1,200 a month, right?
[00:36:37]  And that doesn't even include dinner.
[00:36:39]  So I guess going forward, we're going to try to stick to the $1,000 a month budget.
[00:36:44]  Is that right?
[00:36:45]  Well, if you're willing to spend $3,000 and that's what you would like to do, then that's fine.
[00:36:52]  Have I talked to you guys before?
[00:36:56]  Yeah, I called in a few years ago.
[00:36:59]  Okay.
[00:36:59]  Yeah.
[00:36:59]  It's just, it's a certain.
[00:37:01]  Okay.
[00:37:01]  All right.
[00:37:02]  So, so Sammy, I mean, if you want him to spend a lot of extra money on you, I mean, which is fine, but what do you provide in return?
[00:37:12]  I mean, because otherwise you're both providing equal stuff, but he has to spend thousands of dollars a month more on you.
[00:37:20]  And so, in terms of like equality of trade, the traditional trade is the man spends his money on his wife and children, and his wife raises his children.
[00:37:30]  Children and runs the household and frees him up to be more productive out in the world and so on.
[00:37:36]  So, I think if I understand the general issue correctly, then with Leroy, do you feel like you are getting equal value for what you're spending in the relationship in some other way?
[00:37:49]  And it can't be sex, of course, because sex is mutual and it can't be companionship because companionship is mutual.
[00:37:55]  So, where is Sammy's generosity significantly in excess of yours?
[00:38:01]  Because if you're very generous with your money, then she needs to be very generous.
[00:38:04]  With something else, otherwise, it feels a bit humiliating.
[00:38:06]  Like, women are always concerned that they're going to be chosen for sexual access, and men are always concerned that they're going to be chosen for financial means, and so on.
[00:38:16]  So, this is to you, Leroy.
[00:38:18]  In what areas do you find that Sammy's generosity matches what you're providing financially?
[00:38:26]  Generosity?
[00:38:27]  I guess.
[00:38:29]  Well, because the idea is that because you make 100 times more than she does, that you're more generous with your finances, which is fine.
[00:38:36]  But where is she more generous in return or in response?
[00:38:40]  I mean, is your house a paradise?
[00:38:41]  Is she fixing it all up?
[00:38:42]  Does she do all the housework?
[00:38:44]  Does she run all the bills and free you up?
[00:38:47]  Is there an excess of generosity on Sammy's part to match what your excess of generosity is or significant generosity?
[00:38:55]  Maybe not an excess, right?
[00:38:56]  Is there more generosity on Sammy's part in some other area to match the generosity of the finances?
[00:39:03]  No, I don't think there's any additional contribution from her that is more than.
[00:39:12]  I guess she could look at it this way the fraction of my income that I spend on her is about equal to the fraction of her income that she spends on me.
[00:39:22]  So that's interesting.
[00:39:23]  No, but that doesn't really matter, right?
[00:39:26]  I mean, if I'm going into business with someone and we both have to put a million dollars in, right?
[00:39:32]  And I have a million dollars and he has a thousand dollars.
[00:39:35]  And he says, Well, I'll put a thousand dollars in.
[00:39:38]  That's a hundred percent of what I have.
[00:39:39]  And you put a million dollars in.
[00:39:41]  That's a hundred percent of what you have.
[00:39:42]  Therefore, a hundred equals a hundred.
[00:39:44]  And therefore, it's the same.

=== Dish Hours and Work Estimates (15:32) ===

[00:39:45]  Come on, you know, we know that's not the case.
[00:39:48]  The percentages don't matter at all as far as that goes.
[00:39:51]  So, look, it's pretty easy, Sammy.
[00:39:53]  You just have to find some way that you're going to benefit Leroy to the point where he's the money is fine.
[00:39:59]  You just have to, you know, do something that's going to be a value and benefit to him to match.
[00:40:05]  The financial, additional finances that he's putting in.
[00:40:07]  And, you know, you're intelligent people.
[00:40:10]  And so you can sort that out.
[00:40:12]  So, you know, you just have to figure out what you can do that's going to be of value to him so that he's, the money is not an issue, if that makes sense.
[00:40:21]  Yeah.
[00:40:21]  I do believe I provide a lot of value to him.
[00:40:25]  I basically, you know, do all of the routines that a housewife does.
[00:40:31]  I like to serve him and just, Honor him and respect his rules and boundaries, and honestly give him everything that he asks for.
[00:40:44]  Okay, hold on.
[00:40:45]  Sorry, hang on.
[00:40:46]  Sorry.
[00:40:46]  So I'm so sorry to leave.
[00:40:48]  Just hold your thought for a second.
[00:40:49]  I apologize.
[00:40:50]  So, Sammy, how much, how many hours a week would you say you spend on, you know, housework and cooking and cleaning and laundry and whatever else you're doing to match his generosity financially?
[00:41:04]  I would say about 40 hours a week.
[00:41:07]  I mean, that's quite high if there's just the two of you, isn't it?
[00:41:10]  I mean, what are you going to do if you have kids?
[00:41:11]  80 hours a week?
[00:41:12]  I mean, are you doing 40 hours?
[00:41:14]  So eight hours a day, five days a week.
[00:41:17]  You are spending on housework and bills and laundry and cleaning and cooking and shopping.
[00:41:25]  I mean, you know, it's not small, but I just want to make sure I'm clear.
[00:41:29]  So it's 40 hours a week.
[00:41:34]  I think she might be including some recreational activities I take her to.
[00:41:39]  Well, no, no, I'm talking about the work, right?
[00:41:41]  The stuff that.
[00:41:42]  We're going to go play games tonight and eat dinner.
[00:41:45]  And would you count that as the 40 hours?
[00:41:50]  I would count that as leisurely activity of spending time with you.
[00:41:55]  So what's the 40 hours then?
[00:41:58]  As we just discussed, cooking food, doing chores around the house, picking out your clothes when you asked me to.
[00:42:09]  Yeah, things of that nature.
[00:42:11]  Come on, that's not 40 hours a week.
[00:42:13]  With all due respect, I mean, I just can't see how that all adds.
[00:42:15]  And also, if it's 40 hours a week to care for one guy, then if you guys have kids, then what?
[00:42:21]  I mean, that's way more.
[00:42:23]  Yeah, it's very high maintenance.
[00:42:25]  Being a mom is a 24 7 job.
[00:42:29]  I know it is.
[00:42:30]  It is because you've always got to be on call.
[00:42:32]  But okay, well, Leroy, do you agree with her assessment of 40 hours a week?
[00:42:40]  Maybe in her head, like she thinks.
[00:42:41]  No, no, do you agree with it?
[00:42:43]  Not in her head.
[00:42:43]  Do you agree with it?
[00:42:47]  I can't disagree with it.
[00:42:49]  Okay.
[00:42:49]  So if she's taking 40 hours of labor away from you and making your house beautiful and you're skating through doing your thing and you don't have to worry about any or many house things, is that not worth the extra money that you're spending?
[00:43:04]  I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't.
[00:43:06]  I'm just curious.
[00:43:07]  Yes.
[00:43:08]  I appreciate it.
[00:43:09]  You helping bolster her support for a higher food budget every month?
[00:43:15]  Well, no, that's not.
[00:43:16]  I mean, my question is is the work that she's doing roughly equal or compensating for the extra money that you're putting in at the moment?
[00:43:27]  Yeah, no, I said like $1,000 was my, that I've moved the needle.
[00:43:32]  It started out like less than that.
[00:43:34]  But anyway, and she's, I think, currently around the $3,000 a month, you know, $100 a day, 30 days, about $3,000 a month goal for her.
[00:43:45]  And then for me, I've moved it to, we just earlier in this conversation negotiated $1,000 a month.
[00:43:52]  And yes, I think $1,000 a month is definitely reasonable for her contributions in the domestic services area.
[00:43:59]  Okay, so if it's $3,000 a month, wouldn't that be eating out a lot?
[00:44:03]  Yes.
[00:44:04]  Okay, but if, sorry, sorry to seek the obvious, but if you're eating out a lot, then that's not 40 hours a week in food prep, right?
[00:44:12]  Which, are you including the driving and, um, ordering and researching what food to eat when we eat out?
[00:44:19]  Yeah, she's, she's probably including all of that.
[00:44:21]  No, no, no, come on.
[00:44:23]  It's, if you're eating out, that's not how, yeah.
[00:44:26]  I agree.
[00:44:26]  I agree.
[00:44:27]  It's not.
[00:44:27]  Okay, so, uh, and of course you don't have mates or anything like that, I assume.
[00:44:32]  So, um, And how big is the place that you live in?
[00:44:35]  Is it a house, a single house?
[00:44:37]  How many bedrooms?
[00:44:38]  Is it a smaller place, a condo or apartment?
[00:44:40]  Or what's the size of the place that you live in?
[00:44:43]  1,500 or so square feet.
[00:44:45]  And it's a house?
[00:44:47]  Pretty much, yeah.
[00:44:48]  Pretty much a house.
[00:44:49]  So you have a house guest.
[00:44:52]  Do you have a house guest at the moment?
[00:44:54]  I'd rather not get into that.
[00:44:55]  Okay, it's totally fine.
[00:44:56]  All right.
[00:44:57]  So it's not a massive mansion that she's taking care of.
[00:45:00]  There aren't any kids.
[00:45:01]  I assume, well, I don't know if there's a lot of entertaining, but entertaining can be.
[00:45:05]  Very time consuming.
[00:45:07]  My wife is Greek, and therefore, whenever we entertain, it's a production of a Cecil B. DeMille size scope and budget.
[00:45:14]  And so, it seems like if you're just taking care of one guy in a relatively small house and you eat out a lot, I still don't want to haggle about the 40 hours.
[00:45:25]  I personally can't see how you get there.
[00:45:28]  And of course, some of it you'd have to do yourself, right?
[00:45:31]  So, women will sometimes say, Well, but I have to vacuum.
[00:45:34]  And it's like, Well, you'd have to vacuum if you lived alone too, right?
[00:45:37]  I mean, so there's some stuff that.
[00:45:39]  I have to do dishes.
[00:45:40]  Well, you know, there'll be a few more dishes, but you still have to do dishes when you live at home, so alone, right?
[00:45:45]  So, sorry, go ahead.
[00:45:46]  I'm not sure if Sammy is comfortable getting into it, but she has not felt obligated to put in any significant work for herself in her past living situations.
[00:45:58]  Not felt obligated, so she didn't have to wipe down the counters or clean the bathrooms or do dishes or?
[00:46:05]  Correct.
[00:46:07]  What mean?
[00:46:08]  Prison?
[00:46:09]  Never mind, don't answer.
[00:46:12]  Okay.
[00:46:13]  All right.
[00:46:13]  But, but I mean, the natural state of things is everybody has to do housework, right?
[00:46:18]  I mean, that's just life.
[00:46:20]  I'd say so.
[00:46:20]  But so I'd say this is a huge step up.
[00:46:23]  And compared to how I've seen her live in the past, I'm comfortable.
[00:46:28]  Like she was a little bit of a, I wouldn't say, she was a little bit not quite so fussy with her personal standards of tidiness, cleanliness, like something like that.
[00:46:37]  Yeah.
[00:46:38]  My standards aren't high, I would say.
[00:46:42]  So for her to have been below my standards.
[00:46:45]  I don't know.
[00:46:45]  I'd say I'm like 50% of population wise cleanliness, roughly the median or whatever.
[00:46:51]  But anyway, so she was below that, I would say.
[00:46:53]  Okay, sure.
[00:46:54]  So let me ask you this, Leroy.
[00:46:56]  Are you aware or do you feel how many hours of labor Sammy is removing from you every week?
[00:47:07]  Yeah, that's significant, which is why I feel like I'm pretty negotiable on these subjects.
[00:47:13]  But I just want to say, please let me say, that I think most of the work she does is like mental in her mind and it doesn't involve a lot of elbow grease.
[00:47:23]  Not the kind of work that men think of, but maybe emotional work would be another way of putting it.
[00:47:28]  So she feels like she's doing 40 hours of work every week.
[00:47:32]  Don't speak for her because I was asking about housework and stuff and I don't know exactly how to measure.
[00:47:37]  Thinking about the relationship or being some kind of pseudo therapist.
[00:47:40]  I don't know how to measure any of that because that's not objective.
[00:47:42]  But with regards to just like, you, how much time did you spend on maintaining the home and house and cooking and cleaning and, you know, shopping?
[00:47:52]  And like, how much time were you spending a week before she moved in andor lived next door?
[00:47:59]  And how much time are you spending now?
[00:48:00]  Like, we've gone from, I used to spend 20 hours, it's gone down to like nothing, then that's plus 20 hours.
[00:48:05]  It used to be 40, now it's 20.
[00:48:06]  Well, you know what I mean?
[00:48:07]  Like, so how much time?
[00:48:09]  Is being saved by having Sammy do this, you know, excellent and important work around the house.
[00:48:15]  Well, value wise.
[00:48:17]  No, no, just hours.
[00:48:18]  Just hours.
[00:48:19]  I can't measure value in hours because it's so subjective because the amount of hours.
[00:48:25]  No, the hours aren't subjective.
[00:48:26]  I'm so sorry.
[00:48:27]  The hours aren't subjective.
[00:48:28]  Right.
[00:48:28]  So if you used to spend three, hang on, if you used to spend two or three hours a day, you know, shopping and cooking and cleaning up for your meals, and now that's all handled by Sammy, then that's two to three hours that.
[00:48:39]  Has been freed up for you to do more productive things.
[00:48:42]  That's generally how couples work.
[00:48:43]  That if you have a high earning man, then the woman does the stuff that is, quote, lower in economic value.
[00:48:50]  But what that does is it adds to the overall household income, right?
[00:48:53]  So, for example, if the wife spends two hours a day and frees up the man to spend two hours a day working and he makes $500 an hour, take some crazy number, then the family is up $1,000 a day because the woman is doing the housework.
[00:49:11]  And therefore, she gets some portion of that money, you could say half or whatever, because that money's only coming in because she's doing the work.
[00:49:18]  And so that's generally what happens she would do the work that would make less money or no money.
[00:49:25]  And then you would be freed up to do whatever it is you do that gives you the hundred times income, if that makes sense.
[00:49:31]  Yeah.
[00:49:32]  So I'd say five hours a week or more might be a little generous.
[00:49:39]  So she being there, Cuts the work that you do around the house by about five hours a week?
[00:49:46]  I'd say that might be a generous estimate.
[00:49:49]  Well, just tell me what is the reasonable estimate?
[00:49:52]  A generous estimate is not super helpful.
[00:49:55]  Steph, I've been so blessed with Sammy here helping me that before then it's difficult for me to think about the work I did on a weekly basis.
[00:50:09]  I'd rather just not get into that bad space I was in, having a Do my own dishes and stuff like that.
[00:50:16]  Okay, so she's doing 20 hours a month.
[00:50:18]  And how much extra are you spending as a result of her being in the environment?
[00:50:26]  Not just food, but the whole thing.
[00:50:29]  So I'd say maybe at least like $2,000 a month extra, maybe three or four or more would be which.
[00:50:36]  And then actually, we've got this big ticket item, but it's kind of mutual expenses.
[00:50:41]  But your question so this month, it's going to be probably $5,000 or $6,000 extra this month.
[00:50:50]  Okay.
[00:50:51]  So if she's doing 20 hours a week and you're spending $5,000 extra, then she's being paid $250 an hour.
[00:50:59]  That sounds about right.
[00:51:00]  Okay.
[00:51:01]  I mean, there is, of course, a bit of a difference between five hours a week, which is your estimate, and her estimate of 40 hours a week.
[00:51:07]  Although I suppose her estimate is how much time she puts in, and your estimate is how much time it saves you.
[00:51:12]  Sure.
[00:51:13]  And the closer you can make those numbers, the better.
[00:51:15]  I'm so sorry.
[00:51:15]  Go ahead.
[00:51:16]  Well, there's a lot of subjective values, is the problem as far as nailing it down to a specific amount.
[00:51:23]  There's not a free market for household companions and domestic.
[00:51:29]  Where.
[00:51:30]  Wait, hang on.
[00:51:31]  Of course there is.
[00:51:32]  Sorry to be annoying, but you can hire cooks and maids and all that sort of stuff.
[00:51:37]  You can hire people to do your taxes.
[00:51:38]  You can hire people to.
[00:51:39]  I mean, you could even hire people to chat with the therapists or whatever, right?
[00:51:42]  So, yeah, there certainly is a market for these things.
[00:51:45]  Of course, it doesn't come with love companions and sex and all of that sort of stuff.
[00:51:49]  But as far as the labor goes around the house, oh, absolutely.
[00:51:53]  That's a huge market.
[00:51:55]  Yeah, so I think $250 an hour sounds reasonable compared to the.
[00:52:00]  Amount that the free market would provide those services.
[00:52:02]  Yeah.
[00:52:03]  So you think that maids and cooks make $250 an hour?
[00:52:09]  Well, not necessarily.
[00:52:10]  So you're right, actually.
[00:52:11]  And that's why food is the subject of our interest in discussing it because I have no interest in paying her in the food realm because of various differences that I'm fine cooking my own food and buying my own food.
[00:52:28]  So, in that regard, and so then you could.
[00:52:30]  Basically, take off.
[00:52:32]  And that's another thing.
[00:52:33]  So, the expenses are shared expenses that she's convinced me to spend money on.
[00:52:38]  While it is additional expenses, we both enjoy a lot of those expenses.
[00:52:44]  So, about half of that would be so you could say it's mutual, the benefit of these expenses.
[00:52:50]  So, it might be $125 an hour.
[00:52:52]  It could be a reasonable estimate to get people to come out to where I live and do these things.
[00:52:56]  Wow.
[00:52:56]  Okay.
[00:52:57]  So, the way that the economics of it's a very interesting topic.
[00:53:00]  The way that the economics of a relationship work is you have to take Sex, companionship, and love out of the equation completely.
[00:53:08]  And the reason for that is I'm sure, Sammy, and not that I would ever think that this would ever cross your mind, but men find it extremely humiliating to have to pay for sex.
[00:53:20]  And again, I'm not saying this is part of the relationship, I'm not saying this is on anyone's mind.
[00:53:24]  But in order for the economics of a relationship to have to work, to work and to be fair, sexuality, romance, love, Companionship, conversation, blah, Those have to be taken completely out of the equation.
[00:53:42]  Because, of course, again, I'm not saying this is part of your relationship.
[00:53:45]  But if there was some woman who said to a man, well, you have to pay me $5,000 a month because I sleep with you, I mean, that would be obviously gross.
[00:53:54]  And again, I'm not saying that's part of the relationship.
[00:53:57]  So when it comes to adding value in a relationship, and of course, we all want to add value, we want to receive value, and we have an innate sense of fairness and so on.
[00:54:06]  So you have to take the sex, love, companionship, conversation, all of that has to be taken out.
[00:54:14]  of the equation.
[00:54:15]  And because it's humiliating to put it in, right?
[00:54:18]  Because then the man might feel like he's paying extra money just to have sexual access, which is really bad, that that's really bad and toxic.
[00:54:25]  And again, I'm not saying it's part of the relationship.
[00:54:27]  So you have to look at it like it's a business arrangement because it is because sex is not part of it.
[00:54:32]  Sex is like mutual and all of that.
[00:54:35]  So you have to look and say, okay, I am paying extra for a woman to be In my life.
[00:54:45]  And that's fine.
[00:54:46]  Again, that's totally fine.
[00:54:48]  But it sure as hell can't be paying for sex and it can't be paying for companionship.
[00:54:52]  And I'm here and I listen and blah, blah, blah.
[00:54:54]  I think about the relationship like you don't know.
[00:54:56]  Everybody thinks about their relationships.
[00:54:58]  Everybody works in relationships.
[00:54:59]  That's inevitable.
[00:55:00]  That's natural.
[00:55:02]  So it has to be like roommates as far as economics go because you have to take the sex and the love out of the equation because otherwise you're paying for sex or love or something like that, which is wrong.

=== Roommates, Butter, and Paying for Sex (14:17) ===

[00:55:18]  So, if Sammy was a roommate, right?
[00:55:23]  If there was no sex involved, if Sammy was a roommate, would you be spending $3,000 a month on food?
[00:55:32]  It sounds like you're asking me.
[00:55:34]  Thank you for the question.
[00:55:36]  So, I want to give you an example.
[00:55:38]  This morning, she was really sweet.
[00:55:40]  There's these dates that were dried and she cut them open.
[00:55:45]  There's no seeds in them and she stuffed them with peanut butter and sprinkled chocolate on them.
[00:55:51]  And so, as we've been out this morning, we actually haven't spent any money, I don't think, on food, except for what we had already bought, like I described there.
[00:56:00]  And it sounded like you were eating earlier.
[00:56:01]  Would you mind sharing your own personal experience with food today?
[00:56:07]  So, I, and as far as that goes, I didn't spend anything extra today.
[00:56:11]  Sorry, did she, she doesn't want to answer?
[00:56:13]  Is that right?
[00:56:14]  It's fine if she doesn't.
[00:56:15]  I just, you asked her a question and then you just moved on.
[00:56:17]  And if she doesn't want to answer, that's fine.
[00:56:18]  I just wanted to check what was happening.
[00:56:19]  Well, I'm asking you, you a question, Steph, as far as what you had for lunch.
[00:56:23]  So, to answer your question, I haven't spent anything extra today on food that we hadn't already bought.
[00:56:28]  And then I'm asking you what you had for lunch while we were talking on the phone here.
[00:56:32]  Well, what I've had for lunch, I had a piece of bread with some almond butter.
[00:56:36]  Okay.
[00:56:36]  So that's similar, very similar to the almond butter with the peanut butter and the.
[00:56:40]  No, no, it's not.
[00:56:41]  Sorry.
[00:56:42]  It's not, I mean, it sounds like you have a lovely date thing with chocolate and I just, cause I have calls, I have calls all day today.
[00:56:48]  So I just had to grab a quick bite.
[00:56:51]  And so I just put some butter on a piece of bread and put some almond butter on and kind of wolf it down while listening.
[00:56:58]  So it's not, I sort of did it all myself and it's not something wasn't prepared for me, if that makes sense.
[00:57:04]  Yes.
[00:57:06]  And I don't know what is the value difference there between what I got from Sammy and what you made for yourself?
[00:57:15]  I'm not sure what you mean.
[00:57:17]  Well, the value difference of somebody making you a sort of special treat and they're just wolfing down a piece of bread with some spread on it.
[00:57:23]  What do you mean?
[00:57:25]  Think of those two things in a restaurant.
[00:57:26]  Who would pay more for what?
[00:57:28]  Would you have a restaurant where it's like, okay, here's some bread?
[00:57:31]  You have to bring your own bread.
[00:57:32]  You have to bring your own peanut butter or whatever.
[00:57:34]  And you got to put the two together and eat it as opposed to someone's going to bring you these lovely little stuffed date things.
[00:57:40]  I mean, the value difference would be.
[00:57:42]  I'm sorry.
[00:57:43]  I'm not sure what you're asking.
[00:57:44]  Of course, the value difference would be extraordinary, right?
[00:57:46]  Yeah.
[00:57:47]  So I was just saying there's.
[00:57:49]  So today I didn't spend anything.
[00:57:52]  She put in some time investment preparing the food, the nice treat.
[00:57:57]  And what did you do?
[00:57:58]  Okay.
[00:57:58]  I can't do this daily thing because I'm asking a more general question.
[00:58:01]  And the general question which I asked was if you take the sex, love, and romance out of the relationship, if this was just a roommate, would you be happy spending $5,000, $3,000, $4,000 a month extra on your roommate?
[00:58:18]  In return for the five hours of labor a week that you say you're receiving, would you be happy to pay a roommate $250 an hour to do the services and the labor and the effort that Sammy is providing?
[00:58:31]  Thank you.
[00:58:32]  So, no, I think the specific thing that's missing is more better accounting.
[00:58:39]  So, I would like.
[00:58:40]  Okay, so hang on, hang on.
[00:58:41]  So, that's why you're dissatisfied.
[00:58:44]  Yeah.
[00:58:44]  Yeah.
[00:58:45]  I mean, I love my wife.
[00:58:47]  We've been married for 24 years.
[00:58:49]  And.
[00:58:50]  You know, the work that she does around the house is fantastic.
[00:58:54]  I like, I never have any doubt about the value that she is providing.
[00:59:00]  And so, if you, I think your concern is that if you say, Well, I am making additional financial considerations, I'm paying thousands and thousands of dollars a month extra, basically because we're having sex.
[00:59:15]  Because if she was just a roommate, or you know, you guys were friends for four years, now you've been together three months.
[00:59:21]  So, if Sammy was just a roommate, Just a friend, let's say she had a boyfriend and there was no sexual access, or maybe she was a lesbian or something like that, there was no possibility of romance.
[00:59:32]  And she said, Well, I'll be around and I'll do five hours of work a week for you for three or four or five thousand dollars a month.
[00:59:41]  Would you take that deal?
[00:59:45]  Only if the accounting showed, like if she did some better accounting for the last month.
[00:59:50]  No, no, no, no.
[00:59:51]  Come on.
[00:59:51]  No, no.
[00:59:51]  It's not accounting.
[00:59:52]  Sorry.
[00:59:53]  Sorry to be annoying.
[00:59:54]  I really apologize for interrupting.
[00:59:55]  It's a clear question.
[00:59:57]  If Sammy was a roommate, would you spend $3,000 or $4,000 or $5,000 extra a month in return for the work you get from her at five hours a week?
[01:00:08]  Would you pay a roommate $250 an hour for the services that Sammy provides to you?
[01:00:14]  Nothing to do with sex.
[01:00:15]  If she was just a roommate, Of course, you wouldn't.
[01:00:21]  I mean, you can hedge if you want, but just for the sake of, of course, you wouldn't.
[01:00:25]  And so then the question is if you wouldn't do this with a roommate, why would you do it with Sammy?
[01:00:30]  And the only difference, of course, is that you're getting sex and companionship and all of that.
[01:00:36]  But you'd get some companionship and conversation and affection from a roommate too, right?
[01:00:41]  So the one fundamental difference, since a roommate can chat with you, probably wouldn't be a whole lot of cuddling, but you know what I mean.
[01:00:49]  But the difference is sexuality.
[01:00:52]  And so, as a man, I'm telling you, you don't want to be paying for sex.
[01:00:57]  And again, I'm not saying you are.
[01:00:58]  But what I'm saying is that if there is a perception that you have to pay extra with the sole differentiating factor between a roommate and a girlfriend is sexual access, then you want to nip that in the bud because you don't want to feel ever like you're paying for sex, like you have to spend money for the sole reason that sex is involved, because that obviously cheapens everything.
[01:01:25]  You know that sort of classic meme where the guy has to bring.
[01:01:27]  I'm not saying this is you guys.
[01:01:28]  You know, it's kind of a classic meme.
[01:01:30]  I just use this for illustrative purposes, but you.
[01:01:34]  The man says, I have to be rich and I have to be educated and I have to be tall and I have to be good looking and I have to.
[01:01:42]  Right.
[01:01:42]  This is all the things I.
[01:01:43]  This is what I have to bring to the table.
[01:01:45]  And you know that cliche about what some women say they bring to the table?
[01:01:51]  They say, I don't bring anything to the table.
[01:01:52]  I am the table.
[01:01:53]  And again, I'm not saying this is the case with you guys, but.
[01:01:57]  The idea that the man has to pour a lot of extra effort, time, money, and energy into a relationship because the woman offers up sex, which is mutually beneficial and fun for you both, and so on, is bad.
[01:02:10]  So, when you are looking at the analysis of the economics of the relationship, you must, must, must take sex out of the equation.
[01:02:20]  And you have to say, if there was no sex involved, would I be paying all of this?
[01:02:26]  And if the answer is, I wouldn't, then the woman needs to address that lack of value perception.
[01:02:34]  And either, maybe this is to your comment about the accounting, maybe what Sammy needs to do is to say, look, maybe you're not aware of all the value I'm providing.
[01:02:45]  And, you know, it's pretty easy.
[01:02:46]  You just keep a little note, a little notebook, or you can put it in your phone or something.
[01:02:50]  I did this, I did this, so that you can.
[01:02:53]  Exactly.
[01:02:53]  Yeah, so you can show the value.
[01:02:55]  And then if you, I mean, that's a certain lack of trust there, but that's okay.
[01:02:59]  I mean, you guys are three months into.
[01:03:00]  A romantic relationship, but if you have, if she can prove the 40 hours, right, if she can prove the 40 hours, then the hourly equation, and it's not just that she works for 40 hours, but let's say she reduces your time requirements for housework and so on by 30 hours a week, right?
[01:03:24]  So if we look at that, right, then if you spend, say, $4,000, And she's saving you 120 hours a month.
[01:03:37]  That's way better.
[01:03:38]  Right.
[01:03:39]  Because then you're not paying her $250 an hour.
[01:03:42]  You're paying her, you know, $30, $40 an hour, which is, I assume, much more reasonable because you are giving.
[01:03:48]  It's the same reason, like I don't know, whatever it is.
[01:03:54]  I don't.
[01:03:56]  I can't think of one.
[01:03:57]  A friend of mine, he doesn't pay to mow his own lawn because he makes good money.
[01:04:01]  And he says, look, it makes more sense for me to pay someone to mow my lawn because in the two hours it takes to mow my lawn, I could be making X, Y, and Z money that's more than I pay the guy to mow my lawn.
[01:04:15]  Right?
[01:04:15]  Differentiation, division of labor stuff.
[01:04:17]  Like Michael Jordan doesn't do his own typing kind of thing.
[01:04:20]  And Donald Trump doesn't do his own taxes.
[01:04:23]  He pays other people because he's making more money doing, like not learning how to do his taxes than he would be paying people to do his taxes.
[01:04:31]  Sammy is providing a lot of value and freeing you up to do whatever magic money making stuff you've got going on.
[01:04:37]  Fantastic.
[01:04:38]  Then the value proposition is square and clear and so on.
[01:04:43]  But again, you have to scrub sex from the equation because that's not emotionally sustainable to even have the feeling that you might be paying for sex.
[01:04:54]  All right.
[01:04:55]  How's that for a decent convo for you guys?
[01:05:00]  Well, I appreciate you sharing your perspective.
[01:05:05]  I feel like it's really hyper focused on the sex and the male female value exchange, the conjugal.
[01:05:15]  No, I'm sorry.
[01:05:16]  I got to disagree with you.
[01:05:17]  It's not hyper focused.
[01:05:19]  I'm saying take it completely out of the equation.
[01:05:21]  How can you say that it's hyper focused on sex when I'm saying take sex out of the equation completely?
[01:05:26]  I'm saying remove sex completely as a variable.
[01:05:29]  How can that be hyper focused on sex?
[01:05:34]  Because there's a lot of other aspects of this relationship to focus on as far as the food dynamic goes, other than what needs to be removed from the calculations.
[01:05:46]  So, the specific calculations themselves, I was trying to focus on the subjective, specific value being exchanged, the ratio of the values as a part of each of our lives.
[01:05:58]  So, different types of value, obviously.
[01:06:00]  Time labor is different from currency.
[01:06:04]  And so.
[01:06:06]  Right.
[01:06:07]  And so, sorry.
[01:06:08]  So, let's say that you make only $200 an hour, but your girlfriend or partner doing work costs you $250 an hour, then you're down $50 an hour.
[01:06:23]  Exactly.
[01:06:24]  But let's say that you make $200 an hour and she frees you up so that you get 30 hours extra a week.
[01:06:33]  And she's making $50 an hour.
[01:06:36]  You're paying her $50 an hour in a sense.
[01:06:38]  You're making $200.
[01:06:40]  So you're up $150 an hour, right?
[01:06:44]  Yeah.
[01:06:44]  Times 30 hours a week.
[01:06:46]  That's $4,500 a week that you're making extra.
[01:06:51]  You know, times that by four, you're up $18,000 on a spend of a couple of K.
[01:06:58]  So that's a net benefit for you both.
[01:07:00]  And then you both have a share in that money because she's freeing you up to make it, if that makes sense.
[01:07:06]  Whereas, if you make $200 an hour but you're paying her $250 an hour, why are you paying her more?
[01:07:13]  And for a lot of couples, the only difference is sex, which again, you have to take completely out of the equation.
[01:07:20]  So that's why I think there's resistance to spending more money on the relationship, is because either rightly or wrongly, you don't perceive the value to be coming back.
[01:07:31]  In other words, it's costing you money to be in the relationship rather than the relationship help make you money.
[01:07:37]  You know, again, it's not like having children makes you a bunch of money, but it's very satisfying and emotionally rewarding and great and lineage and blah, blah, blah.
[01:07:44]  So that has value that is not dollar based and so on, right?
[01:07:49]  So I think that the conflict is basically just that you, Leroy, do not perceive that our good friend Sonny is providing enough value.
[01:07:58]  And either that's because she's not providing enough value or you're not clear about the value she is providing and you just need to sort that out.
[01:08:05]  Thank you.
[01:08:06]  And there is an overlapping interest of ours, not just Baron.
[01:08:10]  Food.
[01:08:11]  We discussed a little bit that she would be, she would actually change her vegan, her vegan, I guess, exclusions of meat.
[01:08:22]  She's willing to change, and we could incorporate that into our lifestyle, like our friends who sustainably harvest the pigs, the pork, and then even there's other animals that could be sustainably harvested, like wild turkey.
[01:08:37]  And I think she's mentioned wanting to bag a deer.
[01:08:42]  So, I think that that's a great shared value.
[01:08:46]  But I'm sorry to sidetrack it.
[01:08:48]  We were talking about domestic services for value change as far as reducing the amount of work that I have to do, increasing the value, the free value coming into my life by having her around.
[01:09:01]  Yeah.
[01:09:02]  And economics is very interesting.
[01:09:05]  Can be complicated.
[01:09:07]  It certainly can be tough because it feels like very materialistic and dollar based.
[01:09:12]  And how could you put a price on it?
[01:09:13]  It's like, yeah, but.
[01:09:14]  We do put prices on things.
[01:09:16]  Food costs money, gas costs money, eating out costs money, rent costs money.
[01:09:20]  So it is an interesting challenge in relationships to figure out mutual value, especially when, as you say, you make 100 times more than your partner does.

=== Material Costs and Mutual Value (01:05) ===

[01:09:35]  So these are just the interesting conversations.
[01:09:37]  Interesting.
[01:09:38]  You want to be generous with your money and, you know, to your lovely partner's credit.
[01:09:46]  She wants to be generous with the value that she provides.
[01:09:49]  So you just need to find a way to measure that, come to some kind of rough agreement, and then you will both be better off by being with each other and your relationship will be wealthier and stronger because it's mutual advantage.
[01:10:00]  And if one person feels like it's not equal, then you just need to have those conversations about how to make things more equal.
[01:10:09]  And it is a real challenge when there's a big wealth and asset disparity for sure.
[01:10:14]  Thank you.
[01:10:15]  You are very welcome.
[01:10:16]  And I appreciate the call, and I hope you guys will keep me posted.
[01:10:20]  About how it's going.
[01:10:21]  And thank you for both of you.
[01:10:24]  I guess it was a bit more awkward for your partner, and I sympathize with that.
[01:10:28]  It's a strange situation to be talking and disemboweling your life to some guy on the internet.
[01:10:33]  But I think you both did a great job.
[01:10:35]  And I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
[01:10:37]  And a big hug to you both.
[01:10:39]  All right, bye.