Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - The Price of APPEASEMENT! CALL IN SHOW
Aired: 2026-04-15
Duration: 01:49:44


=== Closing the Window on Fatherhood (05:01) ===

[00:00:00]  First of all, thank you so much for taking the call.
[00:00:02]  It's really great to meet you.
[00:00:05]  So, in a nutshell, I'm 46, don't have children, don't have a partner at the moment.
[00:00:14]  And I'm wondering whether I feel I've got, there's still a window, but I feel that it's a window that is closing.
[00:00:24]  And I just don't, I have so many mixed feelings about.
[00:00:30]  Trying to have a family at the moment.
[00:00:35]  A lot of it is wrapped up in how I see the world.
[00:00:41]  I'm pretty pessimistic about the state we're in.
[00:00:44]  And also, I'm wondering whether I'm maybe too old.
[00:00:50]  Even if I were to meet someone great, then I may not have a child until I'm 50 or something.
[00:01:00]  Is that irresponsible?
[00:01:02]  So, yeah, maybe that's the essential nature of my query.
[00:01:10]  Sorry, I was wanting to make sure if people are done.
[00:01:11]  I didn't want to interrupt if you still had more to say.
[00:01:15]  Oh, thanks.
[00:01:16]  No, I think that's kind of a good place to start, if you like.
[00:01:20]  OK.
[00:01:22]  Well, what has happened so far in your daily life?
[00:01:26]  Yeah, OK.
[00:01:30]  That's quite a good question.
[00:01:33]  It's interesting because up until maybe my mid 30s, which was when I discovered Free Domain, actually, it led to quite a major shift in my thinking.
[00:01:47]  I was quite nihilistic and I had no interest in ever having a family.
[00:01:53]  I had quite a negative view of the whole family thing, I guess.
[00:01:58]  My own imperfect childhood played into that quite a large part.
[00:02:03]  Then I was, so then I did have a change of heart and I was very keen.
[00:02:09]  Then COVID happened and I went back the other way.
[00:02:13]  I was so, so knocked by seeing the reactions of everyone around me and how crazy the world went and how dark that time felt.
[00:02:27]  I decided, okay, I'm just going to leave that.
[00:02:31]  The world is too freaking crazy to even go there.
[00:02:38]  And recently I've swung back towards the desire of being a father, but it's not nearly as strong as it was in my mid 30s when I first shared the nihilism and got very interested in your show and other, I guess, online avenues that were more, that left me feeling more optimistic.
[00:03:06]  I'm not sure if I've answered your question there.
[00:03:09]  You asked about dating.
[00:03:10]  So, how long has you been listening to what I do?
[00:03:13]  I think I came across you first around 2015.
[00:03:18]  Oh, okay.
[00:03:21]  Quite a while.
[00:03:22]  Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:23]  So 10, 11 years.
[00:03:24]  Okay.
[00:03:24]  And that was sort of your mid 30s, right?
[00:03:27]  Yes.
[00:03:27]  Okay.
[00:03:28]  So, you had a very strong desire for children in your mid 30s.
[00:03:30]  And what happened?
[00:03:35]  I think, in a large part, I think it was due to not really having a career and not really having much direction.
[00:03:48]  It was when I first went to therapy, I felt that I had so much to work on until I was ready.
[00:03:57]  In hindsight, I think maybe I might have used that as a bit of an excuse.
[00:04:03]  To delay really taking the plunge.
[00:04:09]  And yeah, I guess also I didn't date intentionally enough, but I didn't really meet anyone that I thought was the right woman to settle down with.
[00:04:25]  Okay, sorry.
[00:04:26]  I'm not sure if I'm never sure when you're done, but that's just, you know, we're just getting used to each other's chatty patterns, so that's fine.
[00:04:33]  Okay.
[00:04:34]  Cheers.
[00:04:35]  All right.
[00:04:36]  So mid 30s, you're 20 years into your dating career, assuming it's something to do with the mid, like with starting around 15 or, you know, whenever people start to date, 15, 16.
[00:04:46]  Yeah.
[00:04:46]  So what happened over those 20 years?
[00:04:50]  Okay.
[00:04:51]  I was, I got around, shall we say.
[00:04:57]  You slept around?
[00:04:58]  I think, yes.
[00:05:00]  Okay.
[00:05:00]  Yes.

=== Seeking Validation Through Dating (04:24) ===

[00:05:01]  Quite a lot.
[00:05:04]  And that's based on charisma, looks, athleticism.
[00:05:08]  Did you come from a wealthy family?
[00:05:10]  What was it that gave you this superpower?
[00:05:15]  I wouldn't really frame it like a superpower or anything.
[00:05:19]  Maybe I wasn't always that fussy.
[00:05:25]  I'm pretty decent looking, I guess, tall.
[00:05:31]  Probably not that threatening to women because I'm quite mellow, I guess, in a way.
[00:05:39]  Okay, so are you tall, good looking, good head of hair?
[00:05:41]  Is that, I mean, are there those aspects to it as well?
[00:05:44]  No, I'm bald.
[00:05:48]  Went bald pretty young.
[00:05:49]  But yeah, I guess I'm tall, I work out a bit and bad looking.
[00:05:56]  Okay.
[00:05:56]  Of course, I did have hair when I was younger.
[00:05:59]  Right, right.
[00:06:00]  But I think what I did in hindsight now, with a bit more self knowledge, I wasn't a happy.
[00:06:09]  Guy, when I was younger, and I was looking for that self validation through my interactions with women.
[00:06:18]  It was a lot of that.
[00:06:20]  Okay.
[00:06:21]  And tell me a little bit about your parents and their marriage.
[00:06:25]  Okay.
[00:06:27]  They're still married, they've been married 50 years, and they got married quite young.
[00:06:34]  My mum was 18, dad, a few years older.
[00:06:39]  It was a shotgun wording.
[00:06:43]  So they were quite young.
[00:06:48]  I have a decent enough relationship with them now.
[00:06:52]  There was alcoholism.
[00:06:55]  Dad was, I think, probably not alcoholic, but a problem drinker, very extreme binge drinker, which I found hard, very hard as a young kid.
[00:07:06]  So I don't think it maybe didn't feel as safe or nurturing as it should have, for sure.
[00:07:15]  Their relationship, I remember fighting.
[00:07:20]  There was no physical violence, but I remember a fair bit of shouting.
[00:07:27]  So, yeah, I don't think I saw anything particularly wonderful in their relationship that made me think, oh, I want to replicate that myself.
[00:07:35]  Okay.
[00:07:36]  And how were you disciplined as a kid?
[00:07:41]  From my father, it was threats of violence.
[00:07:48]  Well, maybe not an explicit threat of violence, but being very scary, where you would think, oh, God, this could.
[00:07:57]  Get violent.
[00:07:59]  So, yeah, it's through fear, really.
[00:08:02]  And my mother was maybe more.
[00:08:06]  I'm not sure.
[00:08:07]  I don't really have very strong memories of how my mum might have disappeared.
[00:08:11]  I think my sense is that would have been more shame based, like just making you feel quite small or ridiculous for having done something.
[00:08:23]  That's my sense, although there's not a clear memory of it.
[00:08:26]  Okay, so your father would threaten but not hit.
[00:08:30]  Is that right?
[00:08:31]  That's right.
[00:08:32]  Yeah.
[00:08:32]  Yeah.
[00:08:32]  There wasn't any violence.
[00:08:35]  Okay.
[00:08:35]  But you could be steady.
[00:08:36]  Called any names or anything like that?
[00:08:41]  Nothing extreme.
[00:08:44]  I think there was some labeling.
[00:08:48]  Maybe I was labeled as clumsy.
[00:08:53]  I was maybe in my head a lot.
[00:08:56]  I think I may have been the most intelligent of my siblings.
[00:09:02]  I was labeled clumsy, maybe, and often told I didn't have common sense, but maybe that was more from my brother, to be honest, rather than my parents.
[00:09:14]  I've got an older brother, and there was a fair bit of bullying there.
[00:09:17]  How much older?
[00:09:19]  Four years.
[00:09:21]  Okay, got it, got it.
[00:09:22]  And how's your relationship with your parents now?

=== Labels of Clumsy and Aimless (02:38) ===

[00:09:26]  Pretty good now.
[00:09:29]  I actually told my father how I felt about.
[00:09:34]  He was drinking and he listened, and I think he took it on board.
[00:09:40]  He had an emotional reaction.
[00:09:44]  He did apologize, and there was real emotion in the apology.
[00:09:50]  So I think it was definitely genuine.
[00:09:54]  And I think since then, he still likes to drink, and maybe as a typical British man, but Since I spoke my mind, he is more careful about how drunk he might get in my company.
[00:10:18]  But when he's sober, we get on really well.
[00:10:24]  Recently, more so, he seemed to share a similar political outlook.
[00:10:29]  So we bonded a bit over that.
[00:10:31]  And I've had some quite nice discussions with him.
[00:10:36]  So it's actually pretty good now.
[00:10:40]  Okay.
[00:10:41]  Not necessarily, really.
[00:10:42]  But, but it's, yeah, it's not like we're in contact very much.
[00:10:47]  You know, weeks may go by without any contact.
[00:10:50]  When we do get together, um, three, four, five times a year, it's, it's always pleasant.
[00:10:59]  Sorry, you have such a halting pattern of speaking that I don't know when you're done.
[00:11:07]  So I'm, it's all right.
[00:11:08]  I'll adjust.
[00:11:09]  I'll adjust.
[00:11:10]  We'll survive.
[00:11:11]  All right.
[00:11:11]  Cheers.
[00:11:12]  Okay.
[00:11:13]  So how's your brother doing?
[00:11:17]  Okay, my brother, he has got kids.
[00:11:23]  He's.
[00:11:24]  Sorry, he has.
[00:11:25]  I missed that word there.
[00:11:27]  He has how many kids?
[00:11:28]  He has.
[00:11:29]  He has got some kids.
[00:11:30]  He's got some children.
[00:11:31]  So he's got.
[00:11:32]  Yeah.
[00:11:33]  He was in a relationship that didn't work out.
[00:11:36]  He has two children from that that he spends a lot of time with.
[00:11:42]  And then he's now in a better relationship, married, and has another child.
[00:11:49]  With his now wife.
[00:11:51]  Okay, got it.
[00:11:52]  And I also have a younger sibling.
[00:12:02]  Yeah.
[00:12:03]  Sorry, a younger sibling?

=== Burning Potential for a Partner (15:58) ===

[00:12:05]  Yeah, I don't know why I was maybe being a bit paranoid about confidentiality.
[00:12:10]  No, that's fine.
[00:12:11]  That's fine.
[00:12:11]  You don't have to hate me.
[00:12:13]  So, in general, would you say that your siblings are doing better than you in the dating, marriage, and reproductive realm?
[00:12:20]  In the marriage and reproductive realm, yes.
[00:12:25]  Yes.
[00:12:27]  Okay.
[00:12:28]  Sorry, go ahead.
[00:12:29]  I just, I never know, man.
[00:12:30]  You speak very slowly.
[00:12:31]  It's a long pause, and then you say, um.
[00:12:34]  Okay.
[00:12:36]  I'll try and speed it up.
[00:12:38]  Okay.
[00:12:38]  I'll try and speed it up.
[00:12:40]  I'm going to try and remember.
[00:12:41]  Sorry, I'm going to try and go on.
[00:12:44]  Progress my brain not to say, um.
[00:12:46]  Let's go.
[00:12:47]  I've had lots of.
[00:12:49]  Relationships, and I've had some good relationships, especially most recently.
[00:12:58]  I was involved with a woman that's kind of part of the dilemma as well.
[00:13:03]  We broke up because she was a little bit older than me, she's already had kids, but I felt a really lovely relationship we had.
[00:13:15]  And for a while, I was thinking about asking her to.
[00:13:20]  To make it more serious, more long term.
[00:13:23]  But in the end, I guess we both decided because she knew that I still had this desire to maybe have a family.
[00:13:32]  We decided that it was better to part ways and for me to really explore, well, I'm still not too old, the possibility.
[00:13:41]  So maybe that's a little bit of important information to share with you as well.
[00:13:45]  Okay.
[00:13:45]  When did you break up?
[00:13:47]  Did you say when?
[00:13:47]  Yeah.
[00:13:48]  When did you break up?
[00:13:50]  September.
[00:13:50]  So, is that about?
[00:13:51]  Six months or something.
[00:13:53]  Okay.
[00:13:53]  And how long are we going out for?
[00:13:57]  About, I think it was about a year.
[00:14:00]  And how old is she?
[00:14:03]  Seven years older.
[00:14:05]  Have you ever received a major head injury?
[00:14:11]  Oh, that's funny.
[00:14:14]  It's a semi serious question because it's so completely out of left field for you to say, I want to have kids and I'm dating a woman in her mid 50s.
[00:14:22]  Yes.
[00:14:24]  A little confusing there, bro.
[00:14:25]  Yes.
[00:14:26]  Yeah, I know.
[00:14:27]  I know.
[00:14:28]  It was, let's try and explain.
[00:14:31]  It was at a time when I was a bit more.
[00:14:37]  You're going to have to stop.
[00:14:38]  You're going to have to drop this stuff.
[00:14:39]  I can't do the combo.
[00:14:41]  I really want to do the combo, but it was a time where, like, we just need to have a conversation here.
[00:14:48]  I feel like I'm not interrogating you.
[00:14:51]  Nobody knows who you are.
[00:14:52]  You're not giving any names or places.
[00:14:55]  So I can't deal with this level of self censorship.
[00:14:58]  I just feel like I'm getting these tiny little drips of whatever's getting past your inner armies.
[00:15:03]  So, just try and relax a little bit, just like we're shooting the shit at a bar or wherever, a pub.
[00:15:09]  So, just for the sake of my own sanity, and I have to also respect the audience's time in the long run.
[00:15:15]  People aren't going to listen to it if it's this lengthy to get a piece of information out.
[00:15:20]  So, yeah, just tell me what you think.
[00:15:22]  You want to have kids, but you're dating a woman in her mid 50s, sorry.
[00:15:27]  And so that's just a little confusing.
[00:15:28]  I'm sure you've thought about it if you could just, whatever you were going to say, just with a little less halting self censorship, please.
[00:15:36]  Sure.
[00:15:36]  Yeah.
[00:15:37]  Yeah.
[00:15:37]  That must be annoying.
[00:15:39]  The self censorship.
[00:15:41]  I guess that is happening.
[00:15:44]  Part of the reason I wanted to speak to you is because I'm not sure that I want to have kids.
[00:15:51]  And when I was dating her, it was because I was maybe 20% thinking I could have kids.
[00:16:01]  I had a lot going on in my life and I wasn't really, didn't feel that I was ready to date seriously.
[00:16:08]  So it was a casual thing.
[00:16:12]  Maybe I was wasting time.
[00:16:13]  It was a casual thing that developed as we developed something.
[00:16:17]  Sorry, what does it mean?
[00:16:18]  A casual thing like friends with benefits?
[00:16:20]  I'm not sure what that means.
[00:16:21]  Yeah, that's how it started.
[00:16:23]  Yeah, but I think we ended up liking each other.
[00:16:25]  So you just occasionally stop by for a quick shag and then go back to your life?
[00:16:31]  No, we did stuff together as well.
[00:16:34]  We did dates, we went places, and I think we got attached because we did like each other.
[00:16:41]  Then we parted because she was aware that I did, I still had this desire to maybe have a family.
[00:16:50]  And that's why I'm calling it a big maybe because I can feel differently on different days about it.
[00:16:56]  And okay, so hang on.
[00:16:58]  Do you want me to help you figure out whether you want a family?
[00:17:01]  Is that I'm just trying to make sure I understand the central purpose of the call?
[00:17:05]  Yeah, that would be it, yes.
[00:17:08]  Okay, but if you're dating a woman in her 50s, then you don't really want a family.
[00:17:11]  Like, I mean, sometimes.
[00:17:12]  In life, we just look at our empirical actions.
[00:17:14]  Like if I say, oh, I'd love to lose 10 pounds, it's really important for me to lose 10 pounds, but I don't change anything to do with my diet and exercise, then I just look and say, well, I guess it's not that important.
[00:17:24]  Oh, sorry.
[00:17:25]  I think we've got our wires crossed.
[00:17:26]  I'm not dating her now.
[00:17:28]  I know.
[00:17:29]  But you were for a year.
[00:17:31]  Yeah.
[00:17:32]  And that makes it like every single day that you're in your mid 40s is crucial as to whether you have children or not.
[00:17:41]  Like, if I'm still trying to decide whether I want to be a ballet dancer and I'm 30, you understand it's really on the edge, right?
[00:17:49]  So, if in your mid 40s you spend a year dating a woman, Who can't possibly have children, then you don't really want to have kids.
[00:17:59]  So the fact that you have broken up is not particularly relevant.
[00:18:03]  The fact that you spent that year is, if that makes sense.
[00:18:06]  Yeah, it makes sense.
[00:18:08]  None of this is harsh.
[00:18:09]  And I hope it's not experienced.
[00:18:10]  I'm just, I'm an empiricist.
[00:18:12]  So I judge people's values by what they do.
[00:18:16]  Okay.
[00:18:16]  That does make sense.
[00:18:17]  But so if you spent a year, then we will.
[00:18:20]  Sorry.
[00:18:21]  Sorry to interrupt.
[00:18:22]  It wasn't any great passion.
[00:18:23]  It wasn't like this woman was like the Ayn Rand, the multiverse or whatever it is you're.
[00:18:28]  So it wasn't like it was some mad great passion that swept you off your feet.
[00:18:31]  It was just a sort of amiable sex and outing fest.
[00:18:35]  So it wasn't like you were saying, well, geez, I really want to have kids, but this woman is the greatest thing in the known universe for me.
[00:18:41]  So you were kind of burning up most of your potential to have kids for something.
[00:18:47]  Fairly amiable and somewhat innocuous.
[00:18:49]  I mean, I guess that you got attached, but it wasn't any kind of grand passion, if I understand it correctly.
[00:18:55]  I did really, really like her and I really considered making it long term.
[00:19:01]  And I guess that shows my mixed feelings around having kids.
[00:19:06]  No, it's not a mixed story.
[00:19:08]  It's not mixed feelings.
[00:19:09]  And I get that you got attached, but you said you got attached, but it started off casual, right?
[00:19:14]  Yes.
[00:19:15]  Okay.
[00:19:16]  So let's say it took you six months to become attached to the point where you really wanted to make it serious, which means that in crucial times, Of trying to decide whether you want to have kids or not, you burn up six months in something that isn't serious.
[00:19:32]  Now, maybe it became a little bit more serious.
[00:19:34]  As far as I understand it, at the end of the relationship, you still hadn't become official because if I understood what you were saying, you were still considering making it serious at the end of the relationship.
[00:19:45]  So you entered into a relationship to kind of kill time, have a couple of outings, have some sex, which is, you know, I mean, I'm not criticizing that from any sort of moral standpoint.
[00:19:55]  Everyone is an adult, but.
[00:19:59]  You clearly felt that you had time to burn or to waste.
[00:20:03]  It was not at all intentional.
[00:20:06]  It's kind of like someone who says, I really want to get a job.
[00:20:10]  So, you know, I'll ask a few people.
[00:20:14]  I'll, you know, keep my eyes peeled for some help wanted signs.
[00:20:17]  But, you know, I'll throw a couple of applications.
[00:20:19]  Like, that's not how you get a job.
[00:20:21]  How you get a job is.
[00:20:22]  It maybe wasn't wise.
[00:20:24]  I know that.
[00:20:25]  Another.
[00:20:25]  No, no.
[00:20:26]  See, please understand.
[00:20:27]  I'm sorry to be annoying.
[00:20:28]  It's not a question of wisdom.
[00:20:31]  Like, so we need to approach this from a blank empirical standpoint.
[00:20:34]  Because your question to me is, do I want to have kids or should I have kids or something like that?
[00:20:40]  And my answer is.
[00:20:41]  And you're saying my actions are showing that I don't.
[00:20:44]  Well, your actions are showing that you don't particularly care about it because you've been listening to me for 10 years.
[00:20:51]  I have free call ins and you burned up a year.
[00:20:54]  Yeah.
[00:20:54]  Yeah.
[00:20:55]  And now you're calling me at the tail end of something.
[00:20:59]  Sorry, go ahead.
[00:21:00]  Can I offer a little bit more context?
[00:21:03]  I was dating casually back then recently because I was in the midst of going through a qualification.
[00:21:13]  Which involved a lot of work, and my head was kind of pretty scrambled.
[00:21:18]  I was very stressed.
[00:21:19]  And my rationale was I don't have enough bandwidth to date intentionally.
[00:21:26]  So, why not just do this fun thing until this stressful period is over?
[00:21:32]  If that adds a bit more context.
[00:21:34]  No, it doesn't really.
[00:21:35]  Because if you'd called me at any time over the last 10 years and said, like, you started listening to me, you were still in the throes of really wanting kids.
[00:21:44]  And you've, I've been doing this free, these free calls for like 21 years, right?
[00:21:47]  So, or 20 years.
[00:21:49]  So, if you really wanted kids in the throes and yearning, burning of your 30s when you were listening to me, you would have sent a call in request in.
[00:21:59]  And the reason I say that is let's say somebody said to you, hey, you know what, man, I'm going to give you a million dollars if you have a million pounds.
[00:22:09]  If you, if you do a call in with Steph, I'll give you a million pounds.
[00:22:13]  Would you have done a call in?
[00:22:15]  Of course.
[00:22:16]  Of course, right?
[00:22:16]  So that's priority.
[00:22:18]  And again, please understand, nothing of this is critical.
[00:22:20]  I'm not criticizing.
[00:22:21]  It's not negative or anything like that.
[00:22:23]  I'm just trying to point out the cause and effect.
[00:22:25]  So it wasn't important enough for you to.
[00:22:30]  I'm one of the more prominent intellectual pronatalists.
[00:22:36]  And of course, I also only had a child later in life.
[00:22:40]  I mean, not particularly by choice, but nonetheless, I have a little bit of experience with that.
[00:22:46]  It was not a high priority enough for you over the last 10 years to put aside an hour or two to get to the bottom of it for free.
[00:22:55]  Do you see what I mean?
[00:22:56]  Yeah.
[00:22:57]  Yeah.
[00:22:58]  And again, not a criticism, but it's just not a high priority.
[00:23:02]  And again, sometimes we need to look at our lives and figure things out empirically.
[00:23:08]  Because if there had been an incentive for you, such as a million pounds, or if somebody had said to you, I'll give you a thousand pounds to have a call in, you would have had the call in, right?
[00:23:17]  Yeah, of course.
[00:23:19]  So you haven't, and it's not because you don't want to have a call in, because now you do.
[00:23:25]  I guess being a terrible procrastinator, I've left it to the very last moment of this awful winter.
[00:23:33]  No, I guess you keep wanting to judge into these moral terms or negative terms.
[00:23:38]  This is without any judgment.
[00:23:40]  Procrastinator is a negative judgment, right?
[00:23:42]  You're not a procrastinator because, like, if somebody said, I'll give you a million pounds to do a call in, and you'd have said, Yeah, yeah, I'll get to it at some point.
[00:23:51]  And then year after year went by, you didn't do the call in.
[00:23:54]  Well, that would be procrastination.
[00:23:56]  If somebody said, I'll give you a million pounds to do a call in, but you have to do it this week or today, even, right?
[00:24:02]  You'd get it done, right?
[00:24:04]  Sure.
[00:24:05]  So it's not a question of procrastination.
[00:24:07]  It's just a question of priorities.
[00:24:10]  It was not a high priority.
[00:24:12]  I mean, you know, my weird special ability to get the root of things, right?
[00:24:17]  That's why you listen.
[00:24:18]  So I can get to the root of it and I can get the facts, but it was not a high priority.
[00:24:24]  Priority, right?
[00:24:26]  At times it was.
[00:24:28]  No, it wasn't because you got a free resource who's the most prenatalist, most available for free intellectual who can get to the bottom of it for 10 years.
[00:24:38]  And this is not a criticism.
[00:24:39]  Again, I want to reiterate that, but just empirically, right?
[00:24:43]  Yeah, I definitely do hear that.
[00:24:46]  If I could kind of defend the right word, I think when I did encounter a strong desire, To be a father in my mid to late 30s, I think I felt confident that I could just use what I've learned from listening to you so much and other people.
[00:25:06]  And I just felt I would be able to do it myself.
[00:25:11]  I don't know if that's.
[00:25:12]  Hey, that's fine.
[00:25:13]  Arrogant.
[00:25:14]  I understand that and I appreciate that.
[00:25:15]  Hang on.
[00:25:16]  So you say, I don't need any advice.
[00:25:19]  I can do it myself, right?
[00:25:22]  Yeah, that's fair.
[00:25:23]  Okay.
[00:25:24]  So.
[00:25:24]  You weren't able to do it yourself, which is fine.
[00:25:27]  But tell me what specific things you did in your mid to late 30s to try to have children.
[00:25:33]  I probably didn't do anything specific that you asked.
[00:25:39]  Okay, something general.
[00:25:40]  What did you do?
[00:25:41]  Because you say, hey, I can do it myself.
[00:25:44]  Right.
[00:25:44]  So if I'm looking at a big, heavy piece of furniture and I say, well, I don't need help to lift this heavy piece of furniture, I can do it myself, then I should at least try to lift it myself.
[00:25:55]  Then if I find out I can't lift it myself, I'll ask for help or whatever.
[00:25:58]  Right.
[00:25:59]  I definitely changed how I assessed women back in the day when I was younger.
[00:26:08]  If they were available and attractive, that was enough.
[00:26:11]  Then in my mid 30s, late 30s, I was looking for compatibility and virtues and shared values and things like that.
[00:26:21]  So I kind of felt that I was on a decent enough path.
[00:26:26]  And okay, so sorry.
[00:26:27]  So I appreciate the abstract explanation, and it's not that it's bad because it's abstract.
[00:26:32]  But I don't know what that means in terms of practical terms.
[00:26:34]  So, did you sit down with women and say, okay, lovely to meet you, blah, blah, blah, introduction, small talk, establish you're not insane as best you and I can, being philosophy people?
[00:26:46]  And then you say, I'm really looking to date for marriage and children.
[00:26:50]  Is that something you're interested in?
[00:26:52]  If so, tell me a little bit about how you would parent or what do you think the roles of spouses are and, you know, check for value compatibility.
[00:26:59]  How do you resolve disputes?
[00:27:00]  You know, so was that the approach?
[00:27:04]  Yeah, yeah, things like that came into it.
[00:27:07]  Questions of child rearing, their experience of their own parents, things like that.
[00:27:17]  I think a really important aspect of my story is COVID happening.
[00:27:22]  When that happened.
[00:27:25]  No, because you were in your 40s by then.
[00:27:27]  True.
[00:27:28]  So let's do mid to late 30s.
[00:27:30]  We've got, you know, four or five years, whatever, three, four or five years.
[00:27:34]  So in that time, when the burning was at its highest, pre COVID, You dated intentionally, you dated filtering for values and for wanting to have a wife and kids.
[00:27:44]  And how many women did you go out with or date or try to date or go on dates with?
[00:27:49]  Sorry, it's probably a better way to put it.
[00:27:51]  And how many of them fit your standards?
[00:27:54]  I was actually traveling a little bit back then.
[00:27:56]  So it wasn't the ideal scenario for meeting women that intentionally.

=== The Failure to Launch at 35 (06:50) ===

[00:28:04]  It was only at those nine when I was just doing backpacking and.
[00:28:11]  Oh, no.
[00:28:12]  Come on.
[00:28:12]  I know.
[00:28:13]  Come on.
[00:28:13]  You're killing me.
[00:28:14]  What are you talking about?
[00:28:16]  I want to find a wife while backpacking in my 30s, my late 30s.
[00:28:21]  I know how it sounds.
[00:28:23]  I'm sorry.
[00:28:23]  I don't mean to laugh, but you're killing me here.
[00:28:26]  No, I know how it sounds.
[00:28:28]  I was dating intentionally in a tent.
[00:28:31]  That's what I mean by intentionally.
[00:28:36]  I know how it sounds.
[00:28:37]  You're not calling me, are you?
[00:28:38]  I just want to check.
[00:28:40]  I'm not.
[00:28:40]  I'm not.
[00:28:41]  But you understand that the outside.
[00:28:44]  Yes.
[00:28:44]  I'm homeless.
[00:28:45]  Let's start a family.
[00:28:48]  It wasn't intentionally, but the way I was looking at women and assessing them was different.
[00:28:55]  The problem with me, I think, Steph, is that I never really, could you say a failure to launch or something?
[00:29:02]  It's always a failure to launch.
[00:29:04]  What are you backpacking for in your late 30s?
[00:29:06]  I mean, that's a late teens, early 20s thing.
[00:29:10]  The job that I had ended and I didn't know what to do next.
[00:29:15]  Like I said, failure to launch.
[00:29:16]  I never really landed in a career.
[00:29:17]  No, I don't want to do judgment.
[00:29:18]  Again, I'm sorry to be annoying.
[00:29:19]  I got to keep pushing back on these judgments.
[00:29:21]  I just, I'm just curious.
[00:29:23]  A failure to launch is a big negative judgment.
[00:29:26]  I'm just like, help me understand.
[00:29:28]  You wanted kids.
[00:29:30]  So backpack.
[00:29:32]  I hadn't, like I say, I had no clue what I wanted to do.
[00:29:36]  I still hadn't founded a career.
[00:29:38]  Now I have mentioned earlier.
[00:29:42]  The stress of getting my qualification and such.
[00:29:44]  So it's only now at this point in my life that I feel I've got a decent career.
[00:29:50]  So a lot of my.
[00:29:51]  Well, okay, but you would aim for that earlier, right?
[00:29:53]  So I'm sorry to interrupt, but let me ask you something.
[00:29:56]  So did you talk to your family, your elder brother, the mystery younger sibling, your parents, maybe extended family?
[00:30:04]  Did you talk to your family about your desire to have children?
[00:30:10]  Not in any.
[00:30:11]  Deep way.
[00:30:12]  I might have mentioned it, but never a prolonged discussion or anything.
[00:30:16]  Okay.
[00:30:17]  So you told your family, I would like, I'm really thinking about having children at some point.
[00:30:22]  I'm not saying you like tattooed it on your forehead, but they would not be entirely unaware of your experience, right?
[00:30:29]  No, no, definitely not.
[00:30:31]  And it was a dramatic shift because, like I say, pre 35 was the last thing I wanted.
[00:30:39]  Okay.
[00:30:40]  So let's go back to pre 35.
[00:30:43]  Did your parents ever ask you what the living hell you were doing with your life?
[00:30:49]  From, say, 15 to 35, that's 20.
[00:30:52]  I mean, I'm not saying never, but they were younger.
[00:30:54]  But in terms of dating, let's say 20 to 35, that's 15 years.
[00:30:58]  I mean, that's almost as long as my daughter's been alive.
[00:31:01]  That is a huge chunk of time.
[00:31:02]  And did your parents or your siblings ever say, gee, you seem to be a bit aimless or drifting, or what are you doing with your life?
[00:31:09]  What are your goals and plans?
[00:31:11]  No, no.
[00:31:13]  There's, I guess, a very.
[00:31:16]  Permissive, don't get involved culture in my family, perhaps.
[00:31:22]  You could say permissive, don't get involved.
[00:31:27]  So don't care.
[00:31:28]  Yeah, I don't know.
[00:31:30]  I don't know.
[00:31:31]  I know.
[00:31:32]  I know.
[00:31:33]  It's don't care.
[00:31:34]  Yeah, I guess.
[00:31:34]  Let me ask you this.
[00:31:35]  Sorry to interrupt.
[00:31:36]  Would you have preferred it if your parents had asked you at 20 or 25 or so on?
[00:31:42]  Some structure might not be the end of the world.
[00:31:43]  You've got to figure out what it is you want to do with your life, take some reasonable steps to try and achieve it, you know, that kind of stuff.
[00:31:49]  I would have liked that guidance from someone.
[00:31:53]  I don't think I would have taken it from my parents because our relationship wasn't.
[00:31:57]  Well, who knows, right?
[00:31:58]  I mean, because you have indifferent parents.
[00:32:01]  So who knows?
[00:32:02]  If you had the kind of parents who would ask you these things, you'd be more likely to listen.
[00:32:06]  True, true.
[00:32:07]  I mean, when you came home or.
[00:32:09]  I'm sorry.
[00:32:10]  Go ahead.
[00:32:11]  I was just going to say, I definitely feel I lacked a mentor of some kind.
[00:32:16]  Some kind of guidance would have been.
[00:32:18]  Parents.
[00:32:19]  A mentor of some kind.
[00:32:20]  Parents.
[00:32:21]  Who cared?
[00:32:23]  Yeah.
[00:32:24]  I mean, when you bring home your 10th girlfriend or your 15th girlfriend or your fifth girlfriend, at some point, don't your parents say, you know, you seem to be dating a bit randomly.
[00:32:33]  I mean, what is your purpose or goal?
[00:32:36]  Oh, you're not wrong.
[00:32:37]  There's no way I can argue.
[00:32:39]  And that means also, sorry, that means also that you have to date women whose parents are also staggeringly indifferent.
[00:32:47]  Sure, sure.
[00:32:48]  Yeah, it does.
[00:32:50]  When I think back to one or two girlfriends I brought home, It does stagger me that my parents weren't more protective.
[00:33:01]  Did you ever have the father of a girlfriend sit you down and say, So, you're dating my daughter?
[00:33:07]  That's great.
[00:33:08]  What are your intentions?
[00:33:10]  No.
[00:33:11]  Right.
[00:33:12]  So, this is what I mean.
[00:33:13]  Like, you had to date unprotected women, undefended, uninvested in women, women whose parents were also shockingly indifferent as to their futures.
[00:33:23]  That's interesting.
[00:33:25]  That's really interesting.
[00:33:26]  I mean, if some guy is dating my daughter and he's taking her out, let's say it's been a month or two, what am I going to do?
[00:33:34]  You're going to want to meet him.
[00:33:35]  I'm going to meet him, cross examine him, going to vet him, going to grill him, going to meet his family, going to find out what's going on.
[00:33:42]  I don't want my daughter to get her heart broken.
[00:33:44]  I don't want her to get strung along.
[00:33:46]  I don't want some guy to waste her time.
[00:33:49]  100%.
[00:33:50]  Yeah.
[00:33:50]  And did you ever experience that with any of the fathers or older brothers or male relatives of the women your moms could be?
[00:33:59]  Of the women you were dating?
[00:34:01]  No, I don't remember that.
[00:34:02]  I have spent a lot of my time traveling.
[00:34:05]  I've been abroad here and there.
[00:34:07]  Haven't always been in the UK.
[00:34:09]  So often I might have been dating someone whose family weren't even in that country.
[00:34:15]  Oh, my God.
[00:34:16]  Who cares, man?
[00:34:16]  We're not in the same country.
[00:34:17]  We're still having this conversation.
[00:34:18]  It doesn't matter if you're present or not.
[00:34:20]  It's just a phone call or a Skype call or whatever, right?
[00:34:22]  Quick time, FaceTime, doesn't matter.
[00:34:25]  I guess.
[00:34:25]  Yeah.
[00:34:26]  Yeah, I guess.
[00:34:27]  Okay, so tell me a bit about your traveling.
[00:34:32]  I did languages at uni, left uni, didn't have a clue what I wanted to do.
[00:34:39]  So I ended up going to Latin America to see a friend who was living there, to use my Spanish, teach English, because I had no clue what I wanted to do.
[00:34:52]  So I just thought, well, at least this is you.

=== Breaking the Cycle of Abuse (16:20) ===

[00:34:55]  Did you talk about any of their aimlessness with your parents or your siblings?
[00:34:59]  No, no.
[00:35:00]  I'm not even sure.
[00:35:01]  I wouldn't have.
[00:35:02]  Being aware that I was aimless at the time.
[00:35:05]  You just told me you didn't know what you wanted to do.
[00:35:08]  No, yeah, I was aware of that.
[00:35:09]  I mean, you were aware at the time that you didn't know what you wanted to do, right?
[00:35:13]  Yeah, I was very, very depressed after university and clueless.
[00:35:19]  Well, I'm forgetting.
[00:35:20]  Right?
[00:35:20]  You weren't mentored, as you said.
[00:35:22]  Your parents didn't give you a smack about how to live, how to make decisions, how to be moral, how to make plans, how to execute upon them, how to have goals, how to achieve them.
[00:35:31]  No, that's totally fair.
[00:35:33]  I think there was so much lacking there.
[00:35:36]  And I was really angry about that for a long, long time.
[00:35:40]  In fact, it was encountering your work that first allowed me to get in touch with how angry I was at my parents.
[00:35:48]  I'd stuffed it down for so long until listening to your work, really.
[00:35:53]  So, well, and older brother, four years is not inconsiderable when it comes to life experience, right?
[00:35:58]  23 and 19, 27 and 23.
[00:36:01]  That's a big, big chunk of life.
[00:36:03]  Did you get anything from your brother?
[00:36:07]  This is really interesting, actually.
[00:36:08]  I was really angry at him as well because he bullied me quite a lot.
[00:36:12]  But when I discovered your work, it was, I'm sure you've heard this from other listeners, every podcast was new light bulbs, bing, bing, bing, all the time.
[00:36:21]  And it was just a really crazy experience, like coming alive again, that kind of thing.
[00:36:28]  And I felt so excited about getting more in touch with my feelings and just feeling, because I've been depressed, feeling less depressed.
[00:36:39]  I wanted to share what I was learning with my brother.
[00:36:42]  Went to him really excited and trying to explain to him about the links between how you're parented and how you end up, because he's also had lots of problems.
[00:36:53]  But he came down firmly on the side of the family and he said, You can never mention any of this stuff to mum, you'll break her heart.
[00:37:03]  And he didn't want to hear any of it.
[00:37:06]  Sorry, he's very sensitive about other people being upset.
[00:37:10]  Well, he was very protective over.
[00:37:14]  He was very sensitive about someone being upset, right?
[00:37:19]  Yes.
[00:37:19]  Okay.
[00:37:19]  Yes.
[00:37:20]  So if he's sensitive about other people being upset, how the fuck was he a bully?
[00:37:26]  The entire purpose of a bully is to upset people.
[00:37:28]  So help me square the circle a little, if you don't mind.
[00:37:32]  Yeah, of course.
[00:37:33]  Of course.
[00:37:34]  I totally hear you.
[00:37:35]  I suppose I would say he was young and also in a dysfunctional family when he bullied me.
[00:37:44]  How much responsibility did he really have?
[00:37:47]  Well, hang on.
[00:37:47]  So tell me a little bit about the bullying, the ages, and what happened.
[00:37:53]  I want to say that it was just standard stuff, but I'm also aware that even standard.
[00:37:59]  Brother to brother bullying is really bad.
[00:38:02]  And I remember it was really, really painful.
[00:38:06]  It was mainly just mocking, verbal stuff.
[00:38:13]  Just constant.
[00:38:15]  You've got no common sense.
[00:38:16]  You're so clumsy.
[00:38:18]  Had quite big front teeth when they came through.
[00:38:21]  So he'd call me Walrus, which was really not very nice.
[00:38:27]  Just basic stuff like that, really.
[00:38:30]  I was, as most younger brothers, you want to be in with your big brother, you want to please him.
[00:38:36]  So I'd be very gullible, do silly stuff he'd tell me to do, maybe.
[00:38:43]  At one time, he threw a dart at me.
[00:38:46]  He told me to hold the action figure and move it around when he threw a dart at it.
[00:38:51]  Me being very silly and gullible, and the dart went into my hand.
[00:38:57]  Sorry, and how old were you guys at this point?
[00:39:02]  Maybe six and 10, seven and 11, something like that.
[00:39:07]  Okay.
[00:39:07]  And when did the bullying begin to diminish?
[00:39:12]  Another thing he'd do was invade my space a lot.
[00:39:14]  He'd just come into my room and I'd take my clothes and stuff like that, and I wouldn't really be able to stop him.
[00:39:21]  And how old was he when he was doing that?
[00:39:25]  16, maybe.
[00:39:26]  Okay.
[00:39:26]  So that's old enough to know much better.
[00:39:29]  Yeah, true.
[00:39:30]  Yeah.
[00:39:30]  He'd take my stuff.
[00:39:32]  And what about the verbal cruelty?
[00:39:37]  That was more a kid thing, I think.
[00:39:40]  That stopped as we got into our teens.
[00:39:43]  We just kind of avoided each other.
[00:39:48]  We get on all right now.
[00:39:50]  I mean, what does he think of the bullying now or at some point over the last 40 years?
[00:39:57]  Hasn't really been talked about, to be honest.
[00:40:00]  Okay.
[00:40:00]  I think in his mind, it would just be oh, that's just standard stuff.
[00:40:04]  No big deal.
[00:40:06]  Are cool now.
[00:40:07]  I was just trying to toughen you up.
[00:40:08]  It'd be just stuff like that.
[00:40:10]  Okay.
[00:40:10]  And it doesn't make sense anymore.
[00:40:12]  So if you were to call his kids horrible names and attack their self esteem and security and mock them and so on, he'd be thrilled with that, right?
[00:40:22]  Because it's fine.
[00:40:23]  Yeah.
[00:40:23]  Because it toughens them up, right?
[00:40:25]  Well, he actually was quite stern with his kids.
[00:40:31]  Sorry, did you say stern?
[00:40:32]  So, stern, yeah.
[00:40:34]  Yeah, but stern is not the same as bullying.
[00:40:36]  It's interesting that you changed the language.
[00:40:38]  So, if you were to do to his kids what he did to you, he would be fine with it.
[00:40:45]  If you were to insult his kids' appearance and so on.
[00:40:50]  If you would call his kid stupid or clumsy or bucky or fatty or whatever, it's interesting because when I explained what he was like, I noticed a part within me that's screaming, What are you even saying this for?
[00:41:06]  It's so minor, it's pathetic.
[00:41:09]  But you hearing it, does it sound like bullying?
[00:41:15]  It's appalling.
[00:41:16]  It's wretched.
[00:41:17]  It's wretched and appalling.
[00:41:19]  Listen, I am friends with peaceful parenting families.
[00:41:23]  Bullying is not present in any of the families.
[00:41:27]  I know a good friend of ours got three sons.
[00:41:33]  They are incredibly supportive of each other.
[00:41:35]  They teach each other great skills.
[00:41:36]  They help each other learn new physical abilities, and there's no bullying.
[00:41:44]  Yeah, that sounds lovely.
[00:41:46]  Do you know how pathetic it is?
[00:41:48]  How fucking pathetic it is to get your self esteem by mocking and controlling.
[00:41:55]  A kid four years younger.
[00:41:57]  It's bad.
[00:41:58]  It's pretty lame.
[00:41:58]  But I can't help feeling a little bit of sympathy for him in that he was in a fucked up family system with a dad who was scary and a heavy drinker.
[00:42:14]  What else could he do to feel a little bit of power?
[00:42:17]  You know what I mean?
[00:42:18]  I understand that.
[00:42:19]  Okay, so I understand that.
[00:42:21]  So then you must have bullied your younger sibling.
[00:42:24]  I might have done once or twice.
[00:42:26]  Okay, but not in the way or with the consistency or I hope the cruelty that your elder brother did.
[00:42:32]  No.
[00:42:32]  Okay, so environmental explanations mean nothing because you were in the same environment.
[00:42:38]  In fact, arguably, your brother, elder brother, was bullied by your father, let's say, but you were bullied by both your father and your elder brother, so you should have been even more cruel if that screwed up situation is what causes it.
[00:42:54]  But you weren't.
[00:42:55]  Sure, I hear that.
[00:42:57]  I was mean sometimes.
[00:42:59]  I was.
[00:43:01]  Definitely was.
[00:43:02]  Okay, that's a non sequitur.
[00:43:04]  I mean, that's like saying I was subject to gravity.
[00:43:06]  Like, that doesn't add anything to the conversation.
[00:43:08]  Every human being is mean sometimes.
[00:43:10]  What does that mean?
[00:43:11]  Yeah.
[00:43:12]  Well, I don't know.
[00:43:13]  Did you bully your younger sibling to the degree that your elder sibling bullied you?
[00:43:19]  Not to the degree, no.
[00:43:20]  Okay, then it's not the environment.
[00:43:22]  Because you were in a screwed up environment, too.
[00:43:25]  But he was just a kid.
[00:43:27]  So were you.
[00:43:29]  Hang on.
[00:43:30]  So were you, but you didn't bully.
[00:43:34]  I hear you.
[00:43:34]  Surely the main culprits are the parents, right?
[00:43:39]  Of course, I understand that.
[00:43:41]  I understand that.
[00:43:42]  Which is why, if it had stopped when he was nine or 10, that's one matter.
[00:43:46]  But you said he was still invading space and taking stuff from you when he was 16.
[00:43:49]  Yeah.
[00:43:50]  Yeah.
[00:43:52]  Did he bully you out there in public?
[00:43:55]  Well, it was strange.
[00:43:56]  In school, he was.
[00:43:58]  Very protective over me, and he'd, you know, threaten anyone who maybe try and bully me themselves.
[00:44:08]  Okay.
[00:44:08]  And do you know why he did that?
[00:44:11]  I'm not entirely sure.
[00:44:12]  Would you like to accept that?
[00:44:14]  Yes.
[00:44:15]  Sure.
[00:44:15]  It's two reasons.
[00:44:16]  One is it's camouflage, and the second, it's an additional part of the cruelty.
[00:44:21]  Because if there's a dog that has been really mistreated and bites you, I mean, you're upset at the person who mistreated the dog, but you recognize that the dog is not in a situation of free will, right?
[00:44:36]  Now, if your brother is fiercely protective of you at school, but then bullies you privately, That's an additional part of the bullying, which is, hey, man, I know how to act well.
[00:44:47]  I could do it, just not with you when we're alone.
[00:44:50]  This is like the guy who beats up his wife, right?
[00:44:52]  And he's perfectly controlled and praises her to the skies and is very protective of her in public, but then beats her up in private.
[00:45:00]  He's saying to her, listen, I can control my temper at any time.
[00:45:04]  I'm just choosing not to do it with you.
[00:45:06]  It's an additional layer of humiliation.
[00:45:08]  I can, I totally know how to treat you well as a younger sibling.
[00:45:12]  I totally know that you need protection.
[00:45:15]  So I'm going to demonstrate to you how well I know all of that.
[00:45:18]  And then I'm going to do the opposite at home.
[00:45:21]  It's an additional layer of humiliation because now someone knows and they show you they know how to treat you well.
[00:45:27]  And then they treat you badly.
[00:45:29]  It means it's not compulsive.
[00:45:30]  It's not beyond their control.
[00:45:31]  They're perfectly in control of it.
[00:45:32]  It's an additional layer of the sadist saying, I choose to do this to you because I can choose not to do it to you, if that makes sense.
[00:45:39]  Yeah.
[00:45:39]  Yeah.
[00:45:40]  That does make sense.
[00:45:41]  And it's also camouflage because then.
[00:45:43]  He looks like a good brother.
[00:45:44]  And therefore, if you ever go and complain to people that he's a bad brother at school, what do they say?
[00:45:51]  Yeah, that all does make sense.
[00:45:55]  Yeah, it's a way of making sure that your complaints don't ever reach sympathetic ears.
[00:46:01]  It's just another way to isolate you and so on.
[00:46:03]  Sorry, go ahead.
[00:46:04]  You are right.
[00:46:05]  Sibling abuse is extremely damaging, it is really, really bad.
[00:46:12]  And he's never heard of it.
[00:46:13]  No, no, not really.
[00:46:17]  Well, no, not at all.
[00:46:18]  And you haven't brought it up.
[00:46:20]  And that's not a big criticism.
[00:46:21]  It just seems to be a fact, right?
[00:46:23]  Yeah.
[00:46:24]  Well, I brought it up when I was going through the transformative experience in my mid 30s.
[00:46:30]  But I brought it up in a very emotional way.
[00:46:33]  And I was close to raging.
[00:46:36]  And we almost got into a fight over it.
[00:46:40]  Like a fist fight?
[00:46:42]  It was maybe close to that, yeah.
[00:46:44]  Boy, that would have been sad.
[00:46:45]  One time.
[00:46:46]  Boy, that would have been great.
[00:46:47]  Why didn't you get into a fist fight?
[00:46:50]  No, seriously.
[00:46:51]  I'm curious.
[00:46:52]  Seriously, why wouldn't you get into a fist fight?
[00:46:54]  You now have the advantage of youth, right?
[00:46:57]  Well, he was always more of a fighter than me.
[00:47:00]  I was the more intellectual one, and he was a bit of a bruiser.
[00:47:03]  Oh, so you might have lost that fight in your 30s.
[00:47:07]  Might have.
[00:47:07]  Well, unless you grabbed something and used an implement, which would be only fair because he was bullying you when he was twice your size at eight and four or 10 and six.
[00:47:17]  So if you grabbed an implement and hit him with it to even things out, that would be totally fair, right?
[00:47:22]  He'd have no reason to complain.
[00:47:24]  Well.
[00:47:28]  Yeah, I'm not sure that would have been the correct route.
[00:47:31]  I'm not saying correct or not.
[00:47:32]  I said satisfying.
[00:47:33]  I didn't say moral.
[00:47:34]  I said satisfying.
[00:47:36]  Yeah, satisfying.
[00:47:37]  Yeah.
[00:47:37]  Because I remember after that argument nearly devolved into violence, I was rocking.
[00:47:47]  I was rocking like a traumatized child.
[00:47:51]  The emotion was so strong.
[00:47:54]  Very strange experience.
[00:47:55]  I think a lot of varied.
[00:47:58]  Sorry, sorry.
[00:47:59]  Why is it strange?
[00:48:01]  I don't know.
[00:48:01]  I'm just thinking of myself as a fully grown man rocking emotional distress.
[00:48:06]  It's just so weird.
[00:48:07]  Sorry, help me understand.
[00:48:08]  I don't know.
[00:48:09]  Why would that be strange?
[00:48:10]  I mean, this child brutalized you for over a decade and a half.
[00:48:17]  There were bad moments.
[00:48:19]  It wasn't all bad.
[00:48:21]  Oh, no.
[00:48:22]  No, come on, man.
[00:48:23]  Please don't waste our time like this.
[00:48:26]  In general, this was the trend.
[00:48:27]  Well, not all the time.
[00:48:30]  No.
[00:48:31]  What does that matter?
[00:48:32]  Most of the time, to take a silly and extreme example, most of the time a serial killer is not killing anyone.
[00:48:37]  Like 99.9999% of the time is not killing anyone.
[00:48:42]  The fuck does that mean?
[00:48:44]  Well, thank you for taking it seriously because it was very, yeah, it was big, big feelings.
[00:48:55]  Did your parents know that your brother was bullying you?
[00:48:59]  Yeah, my dad would have been.
[00:49:02]  Shout and he would stop for the time being.
[00:49:08]  It would resume, but my dad would try and come down hard to put an end to it.
[00:49:15]  And then in your mid 30s, when you brought it up with your brother, he threatened to assault you again?
[00:49:20]  So, what happened was he'd lent me something.
[00:49:26]  In my mind, he'd given it to me.
[00:49:29]  I'm not sure now whether it was a lend or a gift.
[00:49:35]  In my mind, he'd given it to me.
[00:49:36]  And then he demanded it back one day.
[00:49:40]  And I said, no, I think I was reliving those feelings of him invading my space and taking my stuff.
[00:49:49]  And sorry, this was for provoking things in your 30s?
[00:49:52]  Yes.
[00:49:52]  Okay.
[00:49:53]  So I said, no, you gave it to me.
[00:49:55]  You're not having it back.
[00:49:56]  Right.
[00:49:57]  Because I felt, because I was getting in touch with those old feelings and I was angry and I didn't want to be walked over anymore.
[00:50:07]  Yeah.
[00:50:07]  So I said, no, no, it's my, you gave it to me.
[00:50:11]  And he was quite enraged by that.
[00:50:13]  He has.
[00:50:14]  Anger issues, we can say.
[00:50:17]  And yeah, he couldn't believe that I just said no.
[00:50:21]  And it got very, very heated.
[00:50:24]  Well, he got, I assume he got aggressive.
[00:50:26]  I'm not saying you didn't, but I assume that he escalated.
[00:50:30]  Like if he decided, okay, you know what, you're probably right, just keep it, no worries, there wouldn't have been any fight, right?
[00:50:35]  Sure.
[00:50:36]  Yeah, it was his anger and aggression that came first.
[00:50:41]  Okay, so he's pushing 40 and he's threatening to assault you for having a different opinion about something you feel he gave you.
[00:50:49]  That's a fair assessment.
[00:50:51]  Yeah.
[00:50:51]  So, what the fuck would you be doing with him after that?
[00:50:55]  Like, where does it go from there?
[00:50:57]  Unless he said, Oh my God, I can't believe I did that.
[00:50:59]  That's terrible.
[00:51:00]  I'm going to go to anger management.
[00:51:01]  I'm going to go to therapy.
[00:51:02]  God, I can't believe that's insane.
[00:51:04]  I'm almost 40 and I'm threatening to beat up my little brother.
[00:51:06]  Like, good Lord.
[00:51:08]  I mean, unless it was over a billion dollars worth of Bitcoin or something, like, what the fuck?
[00:51:13]  Yeah.
[00:51:13]  Oh, you're right.

=== Standing Up Against Aggression (07:40) ===

[00:51:15]  As an outside observer, you're seeing how extreme it is.
[00:51:19]  Okay.
[00:51:20]  So, how did.
[00:51:21]  Things get resolved after that.
[00:51:23]  Well, I guess it's the gray area, isn't it?
[00:51:27]  He is sometimes very kind and so considerate towards.
[00:51:33]  No, I get that.
[00:51:34]  You understand the cycle of abuse, right?
[00:51:36]  Kindness is part of it.
[00:51:38]  You know, the guy who beats up his wife will bring her flowers the next day, chocolates, and sob, and stella, and apologize, and be super nice for up to a month or two.
[00:51:47]  That's that's that's part of what they do.
[00:51:51]  To keep you around, I kind of want to push back.
[00:51:53]  Yeah, please kind of want to push back.
[00:51:54]  Yeah, you know better than I do, obviously.
[00:51:56]  So go ahead.
[00:51:57]  I think it's more that he does struggle to control his temper.
[00:52:03]  He can be easily triggered, but essentially, he does care and does want the best for me, especially now we've moved on.
[00:52:14]  We're 10 years down from the line.
[00:52:18]  He's mellowed a lot.
[00:52:19]  And okay, when was the last time you said, hang on, you say he's mellowed a lot, and people do mellow out.
[00:52:25]  Violent or aggressive people or abusive people, they do mellow out over age, but it's not virtue.
[00:52:30]  It's just starting to run out of steam.
[00:52:32]  So, when was the last time that you had an event like regarding the item in dispute in your mid 30s, him in his late 30s?
[00:52:41]  When was the last time you had a disagreement that strong?
[00:52:45]  We haven't since then.
[00:52:46]  Right.
[00:52:46]  So, how do you know he's mellowed out?
[00:52:48]  You've simply complied.
[00:52:50]  You simply haven't stood up for yourself.
[00:52:54]  That could be fair.
[00:52:55]  That could be fair.
[00:52:56]  No, tell me, if you say you have stood up for yourself and he's Been more reasonable, fantastic.
[00:53:01]  But if you, if the last time that you had a conflict that was substantial with your brother where you didn't back down, he threatened to beat you up in your 30s.
[00:53:12]  Because you said, remember, you said, but he was just a kid.
[00:53:14]  Well, he wasn't a kid pushing 40.
[00:53:17]  Sure.
[00:53:17]  And he's still threatening violence.
[00:53:20]  And since then, you haven't opposed him.
[00:53:22]  Sorry, go ahead.
[00:53:23]  Yeah.
[00:53:24]  Yeah.
[00:53:25]  I think if there was some kind of intense situation, Where I didn't back down, he would.
[00:53:35]  I think he just has that propensity for rage in him.
[00:53:39]  I think he's carrying a lot of unexplored anger and rage towards our father, probably.
[00:53:47]  But he wouldn't ever go there when I've tried speaking out loud.
[00:53:51]  He can't.
[00:53:51]  Okay, but oh my God, bro, come on.
[00:53:53]  You're way smarter than this.
[00:53:57]  Okay.
[00:53:57]  Why?
[00:53:58]  Hang on, hang on.
[00:53:59]  So when you said, Here's some mechanics in our family when you started to get into philosophy.
[00:54:04]  That was in your mid 30s, was that right?
[00:54:07]  And your brother said, Oh, you can't tell mom, it'll break her heart, blah, blah, blah.
[00:54:10]  Was that sort of mid 30s too, or some other time?
[00:54:13]  Oh, that was mid 30s.
[00:54:14]  Mid 30s, okay.
[00:54:15]  So, why does he not want you bringing up negative parental actions?
[00:54:23]  It can't be because he's really interested in protecting people because he threatens to beat you up over some bullshit piece of property.
[00:54:33]  So, why does he not want you talking to your mother about dysfunction in the family?
[00:54:41]  My take on it back then was that he'd, he'd adopted a lot of my father's parental style with his kids.
[00:54:53]  So, to even begin To question the quality of my dad's parenting would make him have to reassess everything he'd already done with his own kids.
[00:55:08]  Because when I've brought issues about our father to my brother, he's said that he thought our dad did the right thing in making us afraid of him.
[00:55:21]  My brother says, if I wasn't as afraid of him as I was, I would have been in worse trouble than I was.
[00:55:28]  And that's what he said.
[00:55:31]  Well, and he also says or has the opinion that he was just toughening you up, right?
[00:55:36]  Yeah.
[00:55:36]  By being sadistic towards you as a child.
[00:55:39]  Yeah.
[00:55:40]  Yeah.
[00:55:40]  It wasn't like it was a bad sibling relationship.
[00:55:44]  Well, to the point where you're shaking in a fetal position in your mid 30s.
[00:55:50]  And it's not like you're some delicate little flower.
[00:55:53]  And so that's how bad it was.
[00:55:56]  Your body was like.
[00:55:58]  Yeah, yeah, it was pretty bad.
[00:56:02]  All right.
[00:56:03]  So, why did your brother become your father and you didn't?
[00:56:13]  I remember as a kid becoming really emotional and just swearing to myself that I would never end up like my dad.
[00:56:23]  I did experience.
[00:56:24]  Sure, I get that.
[00:56:26]  That's not it, though.
[00:56:27]  I mean, everyone who does good or bad things.
[00:56:30]  Has different vows.
[00:56:31]  Like there's so many people who smoke every single time they buy a pack, they're like, oh, it's the last one.
[00:56:36]  Everyone who's a drinker says, oh, I got to stop drinking.
[00:56:39]  So the fact that you said, I don't want to become like my dad is not why.
[00:56:44]  Because everyone wants to not do bad things and wants to do good things.
[00:56:49]  So that's not singular to you.
[00:56:52]  Why did your brother become your father and you didn't?
[00:56:56]  What do you mean by that question though?
[00:56:58]  Because in some ways I did follow my dad.
[00:57:00]  I was a big, big drinker when I was younger too.
[00:57:04]  I hated it as a kid, despised it.
[00:57:07]  As soon as I tried it as a teenager, found that it took away my anxiety, my being in my own head.
[00:57:15]  And I, I, I drank extremely for many years.
[00:57:18]  So in, I did follow my dad for a large part of my life.
[00:57:23]  Well, when you came across philosophy or maybe even before that, You avidly pursued self knowledge and a conscience and, yeah, honesty, which your brother has not done.
[00:57:36]  That's what I'm talking about.
[00:57:38]  No.
[00:57:39]  No.
[00:57:40]  No, that's right.
[00:57:42]  I was so, when I first went to him, I felt like I had treasure to offer him.
[00:57:47]  Like, oh God, these are the answers.
[00:57:49]  This is why.
[00:57:50]  Sorry, you mean him being your brother, right?
[00:57:52]  Yeah.
[00:57:53]  When I went to my brother, having binged on so many of your podcasts, it was like, wow, this is it.
[00:58:01]  These are the answers.
[00:58:02]  Makes so much sense.
[00:58:04]  My brother had so many issues growing up too.
[00:58:07]  And I wanted to share with him this treasure like, it's not all on you that you've had so many problems.
[00:58:16]  Because I'm talking problems with the law, drugs, big, big stress in the family, really big stuff.
[00:58:22]  And I want to say, look, there's a reason why you've suffered.
[00:58:30]  Alcoholism isn't normal, we shouldn't have to deal with it.
[00:58:35]  And being terrified of your dad, you shouldn't have to deal with that.
[00:58:39]  And a mother on the distant side as well.
[00:58:45]  So I was so shocked that he didn't want to kind of accept what I felt was a massive gift I was bringing to him.

=== Why You Didn't Harm Children (03:53) ===

[00:58:56]  That makes sense.
[00:58:58]  Heartbroken as well, I was.
[00:58:59]  It doesn't make much sense to me.
[00:59:01]  Sorry.
[00:59:03]  I don't mean to sound blunt or negative or critical, but it doesn't make much sense to me.
[00:59:09]  Why would you think that bringing truth, reason, virtue, and empathy to your brother, who was cruel and in trouble with the law and substance abuse issues and had done great harm to children?
[00:59:26]  Why would you think that would go well?
[00:59:28]  Just again, I'm open to the reasoning.
[00:59:31]  I don't quite see it.
[00:59:32]  I'm sure it's there, or maybe it's there.
[00:59:34]  But why would you think that your brother would react positively to moral responsibility?
[00:59:42]  When you frame it that way, it becomes very interesting.
[00:59:46]  It's like me going to the home invader and saying, Don't worry, I've called the police.
[00:59:51]  Everything's going to be fine.
[00:59:53]  How is the home invader going to react?
[00:59:56]  Yes.
[00:59:56]  Because the police save you, but what did they do to his ass?
[01:00:01]  I suppose it was just a really young and hopeful and emotional part of myself that thought maybe, and maybe this can bring us together.
[01:00:11]  That's what I remember thinking too.
[01:00:13]  This can be something that's not.
[01:00:14]  No, but you need to have a theory of mind that includes the moral horror of harming children.
[01:00:20]  You don't have that.
[01:00:21]  I mean, yeah, you're a little mean to your sibling, whatever, right?
[01:00:24]  I mean, kids, whatever.
[01:00:25]  I mean, nobody's perfect that way.
[01:00:26]  But you didn't have a sort of systematic, soul destroying set of caustic remarks and aggressions and violence and threats, and right?
[01:00:34]  If you're, I mean, if you're, if your younger sibling, if you'd lent a sweater or whatever, and they said, no, you gave it to me, would you, would you end up threatening to beat them up?
[01:00:47]  Of course, of course not.
[01:00:48]  Of course not.
[01:00:49]  So you don't, I'm sorry to be annoying, you don't have a theory of mind that includes bottomless, toxic, caustic guilt.
[01:01:01]  Would he even be aware that he's carrying this guilt, though?
[01:01:06]  He's never, never.
[01:01:07]  No, see, now, hang on, hang on.
[01:01:10]  Now you're trying another theory of mind.
[01:01:14]  The other theory of mind is how aware is he of the guilt?
[01:01:19]  But that would require that he self examine to begin with, that he have a third eye relationship to his own mental mechanics and history, that he would be able to judge his actions according to some universal standard.
[01:01:33]  In other words, you're saying, well, Steph, does he even have empathy with himself?
[01:01:39]  Is he even aware of his own subtle inner mechanics from a moral standpoint?
[01:01:44]  Of course not!
[01:01:46]  What if the guy who spent 16 years harming a child and maybe has harmed his own children, what if that guy were to find out objective moral standards, virtue, and honesty?
[01:02:00]  Yeah.
[01:02:01]  What if that guy who harmed other people through, we don't have to get into details, some form of criminal behavior?
[01:02:07]  I'm going to run to him and I'm going to plug a conscience into his mind.
[01:02:12]  But you can't harm people if you have a conscience.
[01:02:14]  Sorry, go ahead.
[01:02:16]  Yeah, I'm just reiterating that I can see that it was always going to be a futile attempt.
[01:02:23]  Now, I'll tell you a little bit about why you didn't become your father and your brother did.
[01:02:32]  And the answer is bit by bit.
[01:02:37]  I didn't become my father or I didn't become a father.
[01:02:41]  No, no, your father.
[01:02:43]  Okay, okay.
[01:02:44]  Why you didn't end up in a situation where you would harm children.

=== Addictions Growing Bit by Bit (05:11) ===

[01:02:49]  I mean, you're drinking when you were younger, not great, obviously, blah, blah, blah, but it didn't cause you to neglect and harm children, didn't cause you to become a bully to a little boy or girl, right?
[01:02:59]  Or neglect them.
[01:03:01]  Sure.
[01:03:02]  Your brother became a bully bit by bit.
[01:03:07]  Which is, he was angry and frustrated at one point.
[01:03:11]  He was very young, probably five.
[01:03:14]  You were a little baby, little toddler, and he lashed out at you and he felt better and he felt worse.
[01:03:22]  He might have felt a thrill of power or relief in the moment, in the same way that when you drank, you felt some respite from anxiety or self consciousness or whatever, right?
[01:03:33]  So he lashed out at you and he felt good.
[01:03:36]  And then he felt bad because he lashed out at you and he felt a little better.
[01:03:42]  And then he saw the pain, fear, and anxiety in your eyes and he felt bad.
[01:03:47]  Sure.
[01:03:47]  And in that feeling good and feeling bad, there is a choice.
[01:03:52]  And then the next time he got upset or angry, frustrated, he was tempted.
[01:03:57]  The next time he felt powerless, he was tempted to lash out at you.
[01:04:03]  And he had that choice and he decided to lash out at you.
[01:04:08]  And then there were times where he still had choice.
[01:04:11]  I don't know what age.
[01:04:12]  It doesn't matter.
[01:04:12]  We'll never know because he'll never tell the truth about it.
[01:04:16]  Where he would wake up and he would say, Oh my God, I can't believe I'm such a bastard to my, to my brother.
[01:04:23]  Oh, I've got to stop.
[01:04:25]  I mean, this is bad.
[01:04:27]  I don't know what age, it doesn't matter.
[01:04:29]  And you know how addictions grow bit by bit.
[01:04:34]  It's not like when you have your first drink, you become a raging alcoholic.
[01:04:38]  No, you're like, oh man, this is good.
[01:04:41]  When I had some surgery many years ago, I was given some very strong painkillers and I took the painkillers and I was like, oh my God, this is fantastic.
[01:04:52]  Right?
[01:04:53]  So, what did I do?
[01:04:55]  I said, wow, I better take these to the bare minimum.
[01:05:00]  And then I quit them as soon as I could and I've never touched them since.
[01:05:03]  I love to gamble.
[01:05:05]  I love gambling.
[01:05:06]  Do I gamble?
[01:05:08]  No.
[01:05:10]  Of course not.
[01:05:10]  I mean, where's that going to go?
[01:05:12]  No place good.
[01:05:13]  You know, I saw an interview with David Bowie and he's like, no, I can't have a drink.
[01:05:17]  No, the moment I have a drink, I'll become a full blown alcoholic.
[01:05:21]  I can't do that to my family and friends.
[01:05:23]  Yeah, I think I've seen that.
[01:05:24]  Yeah.
[01:05:26]  So, How did your brother become cruel?
[01:05:28]  Bit by bit.
[01:05:30]  Yeah.
[01:05:31]  And every time you take that step down that dark path, your conscience gets more faded, your empathy diminishes a little bit more, and your capacity for cruelty gets more and stronger, right?
[01:05:44]  Whatever you don't exercise weakens, whatever you exercise strengthens, right?
[01:05:48]  I had a friend once, he only did biceps.
[01:05:51]  It was ridiculous.
[01:05:52]  He had legs for arms, but only on one side.
[01:05:55]  He would sit in front of the TV and do bicep curls.
[01:05:58]  He had no triceps.
[01:06:00]  Couldn't do five push ups.
[01:06:01]  But if you needed him to hoist a barbell, he was your guy, right?
[01:06:05]  So no triceps, only biceps.
[01:06:08]  But it looked freaky.
[01:06:10]  Yeah, well, I mean, it's because he couldn't see his biceps.
[01:06:13]  It was all, you know, he could see his biceps, he couldn't see his triceps.
[01:06:17]  So he didn't really think about them too much.
[01:06:19]  You know, there's that thing in workout circles like, don't skip leg day, you know, because you've got this ridiculous upper torso with these little stick legs.
[01:06:27]  It looks pretty, pretty stupid, right?
[01:06:29]  So, yeah.
[01:06:30]  So your brother, how did he become cruel?
[01:06:32]  Bit by bit.
[01:06:34]  All addictions go that way bit by bit.
[01:06:36]  There's stuff we like and we indulge ourselves.
[01:06:39]  It gets a little easier.
[01:06:40]  And the next time and the next time and the next time, and it gets harder to stop and harder to stop.
[01:06:44]  And eventually, eventually, you have no choice.
[01:06:49]  But it only looks that way because all of your prior choices that led you there, like once somebody has become a full blown alcoholic, I mean, I'm sure you noticed over COVID, like at least where I was, the liquor stores stay open.
[01:07:04]  And in part, that's government greed.
[01:07:06]  And in part, it's because if the alcoholics don't get their alcohol, they can die.
[01:07:11]  Yeah.
[01:07:12]  And so you say, oh, well, I mean, the guy can't quit because he'll die.
[01:07:18]  It's like, well, yeah, but that's only because he's been an alcoholic for 30 years and he didn't stop it in the beginning or get help at any point.
[01:07:28]  And then, when you're so far gone, it's just too painful to examine yourself, right?
[01:07:36]  Well, your capacity to examine yourself dies with your empathy because examining yourself is having empathy for yourself.
[01:07:44]  Yeah.
[01:07:44]  And if you have an emotional mechanism called harm others rather than deal with your own shit, you lose the capacity to examine yourself at all.
[01:07:54]  Like a third of people have no inner dialogue, they don't even talk to themselves, they don't reason with themselves, there's no inner voice.

=== Conflict in Early Adulthood (15:00) ===

[01:08:00]  That's crazy.
[01:08:02]  And people who are cruel to children lose the capacity for introspection.
[01:08:08]  That's one of the greatest prizes.
[01:08:10]  Sorry, that's one of the greatest prices that you pay for harming children, innocent children, for which there's no excuse.
[01:08:17]  Making them, oh, here, you hold this figurine.
[01:08:20]  I'm going to throw a dart at you.
[01:08:22]  Here, I want something from the store.
[01:08:24]  I'm going to time you, see how long it takes for you to go.
[01:08:27]  Like making a little kid dance for your approval when you're an older sibling is pathetic beyond words.
[01:08:33]  It's like me beating up a girl guide and calling myself Mike Tyson.
[01:08:38]  So, you are born with power as an older sibling.
[01:08:42]  And with that power, and you are an older sibling as well as a younger sibling.
[01:08:46]  But what you did, I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, what you did was you said the basic thing that any reasonable child will do, which is to say, gee, I don't like it when my brother treats me badly, so I'm not going to treat my younger sibling badly.
[01:09:03]  Yeah, I did that pretty much.
[01:09:05]  Like I say, I wasn't mean occasionally.
[01:09:08]  Of course, yeah.
[01:09:09]  And that's an accident.
[01:09:10]  I actually apologize.
[01:09:12]  I apologize about that too.
[01:09:14]  I felt really bad when I thought about it.
[01:09:17]  Right.
[01:09:18]  But essentially, I chose not to repeat the same abuse.
[01:09:25]  And I know when people call in to me about wanting to change their lives, because we can say, ah, but it's environment, except I never talk to those people, because it's when it's genuinely environment, they never call in.
[01:09:38]  Like, let's say if, if, if you guys were like child soldiers in Kenya or something like that, and you've been forced to kill people at the age of eight, and like that's genuine environment, like that, that's just, you fucked up and you can't fix it.
[01:09:53]  They don't call in.
[01:09:54]  The people who call in, especially with sibling issues, they're calling in because it's not environment.
[01:09:59]  Because if it was environment, they never would call in because they wouldn't have the empathy, the conscience, the anything.
[01:10:05]  Go ahead.
[01:10:08]  Sibling relationship is related to my doubt about whether I want to try and be a dad or not.
[01:10:17]  Well, that's why I'm spending all this time on it.
[01:10:19]  Of course.
[01:10:19]  Of course, I think that.
[01:10:20]  I don't know if I'm right, but of course, I think that.
[01:10:22]  That's why I'm spending so much time on this.
[01:10:24]  Yeah.
[01:10:25]  Okay.
[01:10:27]  So your brother's kids don't give me their ages or anything like that.
[01:10:32]  Are they middle teens, early adulthood?
[01:10:38]  Early adulthood.
[01:10:39]  Okay.
[01:10:39]  So his parenting's all done, right?
[01:10:42]  Oh, he's got one who's still in school.
[01:10:45]  Okay.
[01:10:46]  All right.
[01:10:46]  Two early adulthood.
[01:10:48]  How have your girlfriends related to your brother?
[01:10:54]  Like I say often, I've been out of the country, so they haven't met him.
[01:10:59]  Okay, but what if they hear about your brother, which I'm sure they have from time to time, what do they say?
[01:11:07]  That sounds a bit crazy, a bit mental.
[01:11:12]  A bit bad, right?
[01:11:13]  Not just crazy and mental.
[01:11:14]  That would be maybe schizophrenic, but that doesn't come with consistent cruelty and threats of violence when he's pushing 40.
[01:11:20]  You don't.
[01:11:22]  Sure.
[01:11:23]  Okay, so let's imagine an alternate scenario where you had a couple of kids under the age of seven.
[01:11:31]  And your brother was hanging around.
[01:11:34]  What would those kids see and experience?
[01:11:39]  He is different now.
[01:11:41]  That's the thing.
[01:11:42]  He would be kind.
[01:11:43]  You don't know.
[01:11:45]  Because you haven't had a conflict.
[01:11:48]  Bullies are fine if you appease them.
[01:11:50]  Hey, kid, give me your lunch money.
[01:11:51]  Here's your lunch money.
[01:11:52]  Okay, off I go.
[01:11:54]  Hey, he's fine.
[01:11:55]  Didn't beat me up.
[01:11:56]  Well, because you gave him your lunch money.
[01:11:59]  Yeah, you're right.
[01:12:00]  Yeah.
[01:12:01]  Yeah.
[01:12:02]  You'll know he's different when he apologizes.
[01:12:04]  Yeah.
[01:12:07]  Now you're right.
[01:12:08]  Your kids are around you and your brother, and we can throw in your father and mother.
[01:12:13]  They're all over.
[01:12:14]  Hey, beautiful grandkids, nephews, nieces, blah, blah, blah, right?
[01:12:19]  So your whole family's over.
[01:12:21]  What do your kids see about you?
[01:12:28]  They might sense my.
[01:12:31]  Deaf fronts towards him?
[01:12:33]  Well, towards all of them.
[01:12:35]  So your kids will see that you have no status and power, no weight, no heft, no authority.
[01:12:44]  What would your wife see?
[01:12:45]  Yes.
[01:12:47]  I definitely see what you're getting at.
[01:12:50]  But I think I've developed myself quite a lot over the years.
[01:12:55]  And these days, I would stand up to myself much more, whether that be your wife or my dad.
[01:13:01]  Okay, let's say that's true.
[01:13:02]  Sorry to interrupt.
[01:13:03]  I'm sorry to interrupt.
[01:13:04]  Let's say that's true.
[01:13:05]  Yep.
[01:13:06]  So your brother's over, and your kids are around, and he starts to bully you about something, or something comes up wherein you strongly disagree with him, right?
[01:13:17]  Because that's what happens when you're around people, right?
[01:13:21]  Fair?
[01:13:22]  What do they see?
[01:13:23]  Hang on.
[01:13:23]  So, and then you don't back down.
[01:13:26]  And if necessary, you get in his face and tell him he's just wrong and he's bullying you and you better sit down and shut up.
[01:13:34]  What happens?
[01:13:35]  Yeah, he would explode.
[01:13:37]  He would explode.
[01:13:37]  And then what do your children and your wife see?
[01:13:42]  Well, either me stepping up and it becoming violent or me choosing to be.
[01:13:52]  The diplomatic one and.
[01:13:54]  No, not diplomatic.
[01:13:55]  Down.
[01:13:55]  No, it's not diplomatic.
[01:13:57]  It's just fear.
[01:13:58]  Okay, just backing down.
[01:14:00]  Okay.
[01:14:00]  So let's say that you decide to take on your brother, who is much more experienced as a fighter and a criminal.
[01:14:07]  What happens then?
[01:14:09]  If I take him on?
[01:14:12]  Yeah.
[01:14:14]  Yeah, then it's going to be quite a nasty fight, I think.
[01:14:18]  Not really.
[01:14:19]  He's going to beat you up because he's been in fights and he's experienced.
[01:14:24]  And you're not and haven't.
[01:14:26]  No, I'd give him a good go go these days, I think.
[01:14:29]  Maybe.
[01:14:30]  Unless he fought Dylan.
[01:14:31]  I'm not a fighter, but.
[01:14:32]  No, but it's okay.
[01:14:35]  How many fights would you estimate your brother has been in over the course of his life?
[01:14:38]  Or how many times has he been aggressive towards others?
[01:14:42]  A lot more than I have.
[01:14:44]  Okay.
[01:14:44]  How many fights have you been in?
[01:14:46]  Like full on drag out fist fights?
[01:14:49]  Full on ones, maybe two.
[01:14:52]  One of them was with him.
[01:14:53]  No, no, that one didn't go that far unless you're talking about another one.
[01:14:58]  Another one in our teens.
[01:15:00]  That's okay.
[01:15:01]  So, once you've been in a fist fight 30 years ago, and how many fist fights he's been in a lot, right?
[01:15:09]  Um, yeah, at least 10.
[01:15:13]  Well, that you know of, yeah, yeah, and he also is comfortable with his rage, and you're not.
[01:15:21]  You also have empathy, and it doesn't seem like he does.
[01:15:24]  Is it better if you're in a fight to have empathy or not to have empathy?
[01:15:28]  Not.
[01:15:29]  I hate to say it, man, and this is not any reflection upon your quality as a human being.
[01:15:34]  I would not lay one thin dime that you would beat him up.
[01:15:37]  Because he'll be willing to fight dirty and you won't.
[01:15:41]  Maybe, yeah.
[01:15:43]  Although, if some of that buried rage did come to the surface for me, I probably would go dirty myself.
[01:15:51]  Well, maybe, but he would have the advantage because he would go dirty first.
[01:15:55]  I mean, honestly, one punch, one knee to the groin and you're out.
[01:15:59]  Yeah.
[01:16:00]  Right?
[01:16:01]  Yeah.
[01:16:02]  Or if you were to grab an implement.
[01:16:04]  So, almost certainly, again, there's variabilities, blah, blah, blah, but almost certainly, the guy who's got over half a century's experience acting outrage is going to beat the guy who doesn't.
[01:16:18]  Yeah.
[01:16:19]  Yeah.
[01:16:19]  A guy who has 10 times the experience is going to beat the guy with one tenth the experience.
[01:16:27]  Yeah.
[01:16:28]  Yeah.
[01:16:29]  I think that's funny.
[01:16:30]  Okay.
[01:16:30]  So you get beaten up in front of your wife and children.
[01:16:35]  What's that like for your kids?
[01:16:37]  Horrific.
[01:16:38]  Oh, it's beyond awful.
[01:16:40]  I mean, it would never be the same between you.
[01:16:44]  Because they'd say, holy crap, our dad just got beaten up by a guy.
[01:16:50]  He invited into his house.
[01:16:52]  Not, I mean, it's one thing if you just get jumped in an alley or whatever it is, right?
[01:16:55]  Then at least they could say, well, geez, he put up a good fight.
[01:16:57]  But, but you invited this guy into your house and he beat you up.
[01:17:01]  What does that tell you about?
[01:17:02]  What does that tell your kids about your judgment?
[01:17:05]  Yeah, they would, they would not be able to feel safe.
[01:17:11]  Well, they would question your judgment, especially because you're an older father, right?
[01:17:14]  Okay.
[01:17:14]  Let's take the other scenario where your brother and you get into a conflict.
[01:17:19]  He starts to escalate and get violent.
[01:17:22]  And you, oh, let's just drop it.
[01:17:24]  It's fine.
[01:17:25]  Let's drop it.
[01:17:26]  Yeah, right.
[01:17:27]  And you back down and you grovel to get him to stop being aggressive.
[01:17:32]  What do your kids think of you then?
[01:17:34]  I suppose to a young person's mind, that would seem somewhat cowardly.
[01:17:41]  Sure.
[01:17:43]  And your sons would respect your brother because little boys respect whoever's stronger.
[01:17:49]  That's why little boys are into trains and dinosaurs and giant airplanes and diggers and trucks, right?
[01:17:54]  Because they're big and powerful, right?
[01:17:56]  So young boys are drawn to that which is stronger.
[01:17:59]  And they will say, My dad is weak and backs down.
[01:18:03]  This other guy is strong and impressive and wins.
[01:18:06]  Yeah.
[01:18:08]  So this is all.
[01:18:08]  Let's say.
[01:18:09]  Sorry, one last thing.
[01:18:10]  Sorry, one last thing.
[01:18:11]  I apologize.
[01:18:12]  So your father is drinking too much at some social gathering with your wife and children.
[01:18:18]  What do you do?
[01:18:20]  Yeah, that.
[01:18:23]  I was always massively upset by my dad's tipping into drunkenness.
[01:18:29]  It was so.
[01:18:32]  Yeah, I just wouldn't want to be around that if I was with my family, hypothetical family.
[01:18:37]  Well, you can't control that.
[01:18:38]  Sometimes that's going to happen, especially if you're over at their place.
[01:18:41]  So, your dad, let's say he's at your house and he's got access to drinks or he's bought his own drinks or whatever it is.
[01:18:47]  He starts drinking too much.
[01:18:49]  What do you do?
[01:18:52]  He's a lot better now.
[01:18:54]  He's quite old.
[01:18:57]  I probably just wouldn't.
[01:19:00]  I would go out of my way to make sure that wasn't possible.
[01:19:05]  Okay, go with me.
[01:19:06]  He's brought a hip flask.
[01:19:08]  He's got something on him that he's sipping from.
[01:19:09]  Whatever.
[01:19:10]  He's drinking too much.
[01:19:11]  What do you do?
[01:19:12]  Yeah, okay.
[01:19:13]  I would leave him to it and remove myself from the situation.
[01:19:18]  Let's say he's doing it at your house.
[01:19:21]  What do you do?
[01:19:22]  The same.
[01:19:25]  Just pick up your kids and your wife, and you'd say, We're leaving our own house and we're leaving.
[01:19:29]  Granddad behind?
[01:19:31]  No, we just go upstairs and leave him downstairs.
[01:19:35]  Okay, he comes up, knocks on the door.
[01:19:37]  Hey, where is everybody?
[01:19:40]  Be a good host.
[01:19:41]  You got guests.
[01:19:42]  Where are my grandkids?
[01:19:44]  What do you do?
[01:19:46]  He's not that crazy anymore.
[01:19:47]  Like I said earlier, he did take on board when I let him know how much a drink he had drank.
[01:19:53]  What about you having kids when you were younger?
[01:19:55]  When he was crazy.
[01:19:57]  What do you do?
[01:19:58]  Okay.
[01:20:01]  I could imagine I might flip.
[01:20:02]  I might become so insulted and with all the ancient resentment as well.
[01:20:13]  I think I could flip and get really enraged.
[01:20:19]  And what do you do?
[01:20:22]  I don't know, maybe call a taxi and push him in it or something.
[01:20:28]  Okay, and what if he resists when he was younger?
[01:20:32]  Or what if your mother's like, oh, he hasn't had that much, blah, blah, blah, what are you doing?
[01:20:36]  He's fine.
[01:20:38]  I know Willie's dealing in hype settles, but she would be dragging him away.
[01:20:43]  Okay, and if she wasn't there and you had to deal with him on your own?
[01:20:47]  My dad.
[01:20:48]  I think, like I just said, I would just get enraged and just push him out of the house or something and not let him back in.
[01:20:57]  That's all I could do.
[01:20:59]  That's all I can think.
[01:21:00]  Okay.
[01:21:01]  And then how would your children experience that?
[01:21:04]  It would be scary and traumatic for them.
[01:21:08]  Yeah, I think it would be deeply upsetting to see such conflict between two males in the family they're looking to for stability and security, not stress and conflict.
[01:21:24]  And do you and your father disagree on any sort of general issues that could escalate?
[01:21:32]  Not really.
[01:21:33]  And despite his drinking issues, he would never really be an aggressive person.
[01:21:43]  Just very weird and out of his head.
[01:21:47]  Not aggressive or rageful, which does contradict how I explained his parenting style, which was based around anger and.
[01:22:00]  Fear.
[01:22:03]  What would it be like if your father.
[01:22:05]  Sorry, no, please go ahead.
[01:22:07]  I apologize.
[01:22:08]  I was just going to say he has mellowed a hell of a lot and we do get on quite nicely when we see each other now.
[01:22:15]  When was your last substantial disagreement?
[01:22:21]  Well, I think that question has made me realize how I just tend to avoid disagreements.
[01:22:30]  With both my dad and my brother.
[01:22:32]  You don't avoid, sorry, to be technical, you don't avoid disagreements.
[01:22:36]  You evolve, you avoid violent escalations or potentially violent escalations.
[01:22:40]  Yeah, exactly.
[01:22:41]  I mean, you've disagreed with me a couple of times in the call, which is great.
[01:22:44]  And I welcome that.
[01:22:45]  Of course, I don't want to get things wrong.
[01:22:47]  You disagreed with me.
[01:22:48]  We don't escalate, do we?
[01:22:50]  Sure, sure.
[01:22:52]  I actually remember another one of the things I thought as a kid my brother and my dad always at each other's throats.

=== Avoiding Family Escalations (03:42) ===

[01:23:01]  Not literally, but just constantly shouting and just constant conflict.
[01:23:08]  I remember thinking, I want no part of that.
[01:23:11]  I'm just going to lead them to it.
[01:23:13]  I'm going to do my own thing.
[01:23:15]  I'm avoiding all of that crazy stress and conflict.
[01:23:20]  And I was much more, I guess, the black sheep.
[01:23:25]  The Lord went out in the family, I suppose.
[01:23:30]  That's how I felt.
[01:23:32]  Okay, so you avoided conflict, but in part out of avoiding family.
[01:23:36]  Can you say a bit more about that?
[01:23:39]  Well, if you had children, you would very strongly disagree with your father, your mother, and your brother about various things.
[01:23:50]  Yeah.
[01:23:51]  But that's inevitable, right?
[01:23:53]  Yeah.
[01:23:54]  And so if you avoid family, you avoid those conflicts.
[01:23:59]  You avoid having insurmountable conflicts.
[01:24:02]  Differences that are going to escalate, where you end up either being bullied and humiliated or in some god awful conflict that traumatizes your wife and children and you, for that matter.
[01:24:12]  Yeah.
[01:24:13]  I definitely think what we've been getting at in this conversation makes sense of why I've avoided having a family.
[01:24:28]  No, sorry.
[01:24:28]  I apologize for interrupting.
[01:24:30]  Sorry, I'll probably just be talking for a long time.
[01:24:31]  I want to make sure we get to the core.
[01:24:33]  The issue is not that you have avoided family, it's that your parents, this is why I asked earlier, have your siblings, your parents, anyone, Really, kind of inquired what you want out of life.
[01:24:46]  Because I know the people who are calling me are calling me because they can't talk to their family, right?
[01:24:52]  You want to call a stranger in when friends aren't helping, a family isn't helping.
[01:24:56]  So the issue is that your family structure requires you to not have a family because your family structure could not survive you having a family because you are a fan of peaceful parenting.
[01:25:12]  Yeah, I've had this thought.
[01:25:15]  It does make sense.
[01:25:17]  It would really, it would throw up some challenges.
[01:25:22]  But I'm not fully convinced, though, because over time, everyone has evolved and mellowed.
[01:25:29]  My sibling, my younger sibling, I've mentioned, has a very happy family life with peaceful parenting, very, very different to how my brother's parentage.
[01:25:43]  Sorry, your younger sibling.
[01:25:44]  Yeah.
[01:25:45]  Okay.
[01:25:46]  And I think, how, sorry, has that caused any.
[01:25:49]  Go ahead, sorry.
[01:25:50]  I think my parents would actually be very.
[01:25:53]  Very pleased if it did happen.
[01:25:58]  I'm sorry, very pleased if what?
[01:26:00]  If it did happen to me, if I did have a child.
[01:26:04]  Then they should be helping you to achieve that.
[01:26:08]  Sure.
[01:26:09]  Okay, but they're not.
[01:26:11]  No, and I don't disagree.
[01:26:14]  I do think that the way I was raised, maybe neglect isn't too strong a word.
[01:26:22]  There was emotional neglect.
[01:26:24]  Neglect and not enough guidance.
[01:26:27]  But what it's interesting because what I imagine we might talk more about on the call, and maybe this is my fault for not, for maybe being a bit conflict averse and not saying, oh, actually, Steph, what about this that I wanted to talk about?

=== Emotional Neglect and Black Pills (06:11) ===

[01:26:44]  I feel I'm really, really black pilled about the state of the world.
[01:26:50]  And that is a huge part in my.
[01:26:54]  Is there a ring around?
[01:26:55]  Oh, shall I try and meet someone and have a kid before it's too late?
[01:27:01]  That's a huge part of my thinking, too.
[01:27:04]  I don't agree.
[01:27:05]  That's why I'm focusing on this stuff.
[01:27:07]  Okay.
[01:27:08]  Yeah, that's why.
[01:27:09]  And I'll sort of tell you very briefly why, and then you can tell me, of course, if I'm wrong and how I'm wrong and so on, right?
[01:27:15]  So I don't believe that you're blackpilled foundationally to the point where you can't have children.
[01:27:20]  Because to be blackpilled is to say there are negative and dangerous things.
[01:27:26]  In my environment, right?
[01:27:28]  I mean, you're not blackpilled because North Korea is a dictatorship, even though that's horrible and awful, because it's not in your environment, right?
[01:27:36]  Uh huh.
[01:27:37]  So you are concerned about negative influences in your environment, right?
[01:27:44]  In my country.
[01:27:46]  Well, no, in your environment.
[01:27:47]  I'm sure you've seen.
[01:27:48]  I understand.
[01:27:49]  Look, you don't have to tell me about the British stuff.
[01:27:51]  I get it.
[01:27:52]  Yeah.
[01:27:53]  I get it.
[01:27:53]  You've seen online.
[01:27:56]  People are openly talking about sectarianism and civil war.
[01:27:59]  This is.
[01:28:00]  I get that.
[01:28:03]  Yeah.
[01:28:04]  So you're concerned about violence in your environment?
[01:28:09]  Yeah.
[01:28:10]  And maybe poverty.
[01:28:14]  Yeah.
[01:28:15]  Essentially, poverty and conflict.
[01:28:18]  Like I said, a bit of a late bloomer, only just got a career that I enjoy and potentially give me a bit of a middle class life.
[01:28:29]  But.
[01:28:31]  I'm mid 40s and don't really have anything.
[01:28:34]  So I'm kind of like.
[01:28:36]  Okay, no, we've already gone over all of this.
[01:28:38]  Sorry.
[01:28:38]  Again, I want to try to be efficient.
[01:28:40]  So I'm sorry for interrupting.
[01:28:41]  Sure.
[01:28:42]  Now, just to add to the black pillness of my.
[01:28:45]  No, no, but this all, this all cause and effect, right?
[01:28:48]  So philosophy aims to have you do the most about what you can most control, right?
[01:28:55]  Yes.
[01:28:57]  Okay.
[01:28:57]  Can philosophy save you from escalating tensions in England?
[01:29:04]  No.
[01:29:05]  Can philosophy save you from being silenced and bullied in your voluntary relationships?
[01:29:15]  Yes.
[01:29:15]  Yes.
[01:29:17]  Yeah.
[01:29:19]  So the last conflict you had with your brother ended in a threatened assault against you.
[01:29:27]  Now, you can't do much.
[01:29:29]  I mean, you can leave.
[01:29:30]  You can try and find some other place to be or to go in the world.
[01:29:34]  That's a different topic.
[01:29:35]  But.
[01:29:36]  You have not used the power of philosophy to reduce the aggression, censorship, control, and bullying in your own environment.
[01:29:45]  So, why would I imagine that you fundamentally care about things way beyond your control when you haven't used the power of philosophy to reduce violent censorship and aggression in the areas you do control?
[01:29:59]  Yeah, I do hear that.
[01:30:02]  In my defense, I have a very limited relationship with my parents and family.
[01:30:08]  It's It's on my terms, and I do only aim to surround myself with people who are non violent, rational, who try.
[01:30:22]  I think you may be too defensive to be coachable.
[01:30:25]  When you tell me that the last time you had a conflict with your brother, he threatened to assault you, and you haven't had any substantial conflict with him since out of fear, and you say, No, no, no, Steph, the relationship is on my terms, then I don't know what to say.
[01:30:39]  I don't.
[01:30:41]  It so wildly contradicts everything you said before that I don't really know what to say after that.
[01:30:45]  Yeah, I understand.
[01:30:48]  I guess we barely see each other.
[01:30:51]  We're barely in contact.
[01:30:53]  I barely think about him.
[01:30:55]  What I do think about every day is oh, shit, look at the state of my country.
[01:31:01]  I've already got a narrow window to meet someone and have a family.
[01:31:06]  And it's almost maybe I'm looking for excuses to.
[01:31:11]  To just pin the whole idea and make peace with that.
[01:31:15]  But I do look at the state of the UK and it's.
[01:31:19]  Okay, let's say the state of the UK is sliding off a cliff.
[01:31:22]  Is it better to be alone or not alone?
[01:31:26]  If you got to go to war, is it better to be alone or not alone?
[01:31:31]  What do you think about my age?
[01:31:34]  Say hypothetically, I had a kid who was just a kid.
[01:31:37]  Don't do this shit to me, bro.
[01:31:38]  Do not do this shit to me.
[01:31:39]  Oh my God.
[01:31:41]  No, this is maddening.
[01:31:43]  Do you know why?
[01:31:44]  What have I done?
[01:31:45]  What did you do?
[01:31:46]  We get to the core of your family, you switch to what?
[01:31:48]  Blackpilling.
[01:31:50]  We get to the core of the blackpilling, you do what?
[01:31:53]  Switch to your age.
[01:31:54]  And know that I.
[01:31:55]  Okay.
[01:31:56]  With no transition.
[01:31:58]  This is why I said you might be too defensive to be coachable.
[01:32:01]  You don't want to solve the problem because every time I solve the problem, you simply change the topic.
[01:32:06]  I gave you, you cannot, your family structure as it stands cannot survive if you get a quality partner.
[01:32:13]  Because a quality partner will sit down with your parents and your brother and say, What the hell's going on in this family?
[01:32:18]  I don't want this around my kids.
[01:32:19]  We got to sort and fix and solve this stuff, right?
[01:32:22]  And your family structure can't survive that.
[01:32:24]  So you got to stay single.
[01:32:25]  You blow past that.
[01:32:27]  And then you say, well, the world is getting bad.
[01:32:30]  Okay, yeah, well, it's getting bad.
[01:32:32]  Is it better to be alone or have companionship when the world is bad?
[01:32:36]  Of course, the answer is it's better to have companionship.
[01:32:38]  You don't acknowledge that, then you just switch to the age with no transition.
[01:32:43]  No, that's a good point.
[01:32:45]  I think you may have put that one to bed, but let me tell you my last concern.
[01:32:48]  No, just immediate switch to age, no acknowledgement.
[01:32:51]  Okay, yeah, I can see that.
[01:32:53]  That's frustrating.
[01:32:55]  Apologies for that.

=== The Cost of Self-Censorship (15:38) ===

[01:32:56]  It's frustrating because I want to help you.
[01:32:58]  I mean, I got my life, you've got your life.
[01:33:01]  Yeah.
[01:33:02]  And it's a public call, which means other people get to hear you, not listen.
[01:33:06]  Maybe you're going to exist as the dangers of not listening in the free domain archives.
[01:33:11]  I don't know.
[01:33:12]  But you don't want to solve the problem because I keep giving you solutions, which are pretty good, not perfect.
[01:33:17]  I don't know, but they're pretty good.
[01:33:19]  And you just keep moving the goalposts.
[01:33:21]  Sephiroth, I really want you to help me with this problem.
[01:33:23]  Okay.
[01:33:24]  We've done the family stuff, we've done the social decay stuff, we've talked about the age stuff, just keep switching.
[01:33:30]  Yeah, that is interesting to imagine that I don't actually want to solve the problem on some level.
[01:33:36]  That's.
[01:33:38]  Which would also tie into why you call me in your 40s and not your 30s.
[01:33:44]  You want to spread this hopeless, helpless stuff.
[01:33:50]  I wonder if it's a way of avoiding any responsibility.
[01:33:54]  Well, you know, you're just angry and frustrated with yourself, and it's kind of being acted out in trying to.
[01:34:00]  Anger and frustrate me.
[01:34:02]  Like, you know, the way your brother acts out his aggression?
[01:34:05]  It would be similar, I think.
[01:34:07]  Gosh, yeah.
[01:34:08]  Well, that hasn't been my intention.
[01:34:10]  I hope you know.
[01:34:11]  And now you're doing another thing, which is passive aggressive.
[01:34:14]  Which is what?
[01:34:16]  I don't know.
[01:34:17]  I mean, you've listened to my show for a long time.
[01:34:19]  What do I think of claims of intentionality?
[01:34:24]  I didn't mean to.
[01:34:25]  It wasn't my intention.
[01:34:27]  What do I think of those things as a whole?
[01:34:29]  Oh, yeah.
[01:34:30]  Yeah, I remember.
[01:34:32]  Hearing several times where I'm not sure.
[01:34:36]  I'm actually feeling quite.
[01:34:39]  I've shut down a little bit.
[01:34:41]  I don't think it's your intention, but I feel scolded.
[01:34:44]  And now I feel.
[01:34:46]  Well, I'm trying to, I mean, not trying to, I'm sort of modeling healthy anger, which is I haven't condemned you, right?
[01:34:52]  I've just said I'm frustrated and here's why.
[01:34:53]  I haven't condemned you or said you're being a jerk or bad or wrong or anything like that, right?
[01:34:58]  Yeah.
[01:34:59]  And maybe you have pushed me because you need to see the modeling.
[01:35:01]  Of healthy anger.
[01:35:02]  I'm not being abusive.
[01:35:03]  I'm not being destructive.
[01:35:05]  I think it's actually helpful as a whole.
[01:35:07]  I mean, you may disagree, but I think it is.
[01:35:10]  Yeah, I guess I'm quite sensitive to any expressions of anger whatsoever.
[01:35:17]  So I really did feel myself really shrink inside and become.
[01:35:26]  When you mentioned the potential passive aggression, and I could just hear some frustration and anger in your voice, perhaps.
[01:35:36]  Okay, and let's say, I mean, I obviously was frustrated and angry.
[01:35:40]  Sorry, I was frustrated and angry.
[01:35:42]  And so what?
[01:35:44]  I started to feel really, really upset, very small, and like I needed to defend myself somehow.
[01:35:57]  So you were acting as if I was about to become abusive, right?
[01:36:01]  Yeah, I think that's what my nervous system was preparing for.
[01:36:05]  Okay.
[01:36:06]  So, why do you think you would treat me, who I assume you trust to have some emotional maturity, as if I were abusive or could become abusive in a moment's notice?
[01:36:18]  Because that was my early experience of people.
[01:36:23]  And that's the template for my nervous system.
[01:36:28]  Do you know what I mean?
[01:36:29]  Well, so what it means is that you are treating me as if I, Am your brother and your parents?
[01:36:37]  Yeah.
[01:36:37]  Yeah.
[01:36:39]  For sure.
[01:36:40]  And that's important, right?
[01:36:42]  So it means that everyone who gets upset is like your parents, which means you have to avoid being upset.
[01:36:51]  Otherwise, it triggers this same kind of response, I assume, which is why you've had a bit of a frivolous life when you were younger the travel and the sleeping around or dating kind of randomly and so on.
[01:37:02]  Yeah.
[01:37:03]  Because self criticism probably feels like parental abuse or something like that, right?
[01:37:09]  Yes.
[01:37:10]  Yeah, any kind.
[01:37:11]  I'm very sensitive to any kind of rejection.
[01:37:16]  Well, no, you treat everyone like they're your abusive parents, including yourself, maybe.
[01:37:21]  But that's kind of insulting.
[01:37:22]  I mean, not saying you're trying to insult me, but it is kind of insulting if I get angry for you to kind of go rubber bones as if I'm about to beat you up or scream at you or yell at you or call you names or something like that.
[01:37:33]  Because then you're saying, well, Steph, you getting annoyed with me is the same as my.
[01:37:40]  Brother tormenting me or beating me up or something like that, or my father getting drunk and yelling at me, or it's a disproportionate response for sure.
[01:37:48]  Well, it's a wrong response because I'm not abusive, it felt uncontrollable, right?
[01:37:58]  And this is the price of not having these honest conversations with your parents.
[01:38:02]  Listen, I've been married for 24 years.
[01:38:04]  Do you think my wife has never gotten annoyed with me?
[01:38:07]  Yeah, I'm sure it happens, of course.
[01:38:09]  She's been angry with me.
[01:38:10]  Any marriage, yeah, yeah.
[01:38:13]  Is she my mom?
[01:38:14]  No.
[01:38:15]  No.
[01:38:16]  My mother was angry with me.
[01:38:18]  My wife is angry with me.
[01:38:19]  They're not the same people.
[01:38:20]  So I'm not going to try to control her by pretending that she's my mom.
[01:38:26]  Because if I pretend that my wife is my mother, how would she take that?
[01:38:32]  If I say to my wife when she gets annoyed with me, you're just like my mother, who she knows was abusive, how would she feel?
[01:38:40]  Yes.
[01:38:41]  She'd feel seriously insulted.
[01:38:44]  And.
[01:38:46]  She'd feel that you didn't really know her.
[01:38:48]  And that would be.
[01:38:50]  It would also feel very manipulative.
[01:38:52]  Like I'm trying to threaten her or punish her by putting in the same category as my mother to control her behavior so that she never expresses any negativity or discontent or anger or annoyance towards me.
[01:39:04]  Yes.
[01:39:05]  Right.
[01:39:06]  And listen, I mean, I understand.
[01:39:09]  I sympathize.
[01:39:10]  It's an instinct we all have and so on, right?
[01:39:13]  But it's important to know it for what it is.
[01:39:17]  Yeah, yeah, totally.
[01:39:19]  Were you shocked to hear that I had such an extreme reaction?
[01:39:24]  I felt like a.
[01:39:25]  No, no, I was aware.
[01:39:26]  I mean, you said that you were nervous around, that you couldn't confront your brother because he'd get too angry.
[01:39:33]  But that's a choice I have, right?
[01:39:35]  So if I feel annoyed or angry, it wasn't like I was raging at you.
[01:39:38]  I was just like, this is annoying, right?
[01:39:41]  So my choice, of course, is to be honest or dishonest.
[01:39:46]  And I don't like having that choice.
[01:39:48]  And I'm not saying you're imposing it on me, but if I feel angry towards you, I can choose to say I'm angry and here's why.
[01:39:57]  Now, I never blamed you for it.
[01:39:59]  I said, you know, here's the things that made me angry.
[01:40:02]  I never said you're being a jerk, you're being manipulative, you're willing things or anything like that, right?
[01:40:07]  Can we agree on that?
[01:40:08]  No, you didn't.
[01:40:09]  You just said what I'd done.
[01:40:12]  So it was just.
[01:40:13]  Right.
[01:40:14]  That I keep giving you solutions and you keep moving the goalposts without acknowledging anything, which I think you agreed could be annoying, right?
[01:40:23]  Oh, yeah.
[01:40:23]  Okay.
[01:40:24]  So when I was angry with you or annoyed at something you were doing, and I gave you two, but the third was too much, right?
[01:40:32]  So if I'm angry, I'm either going to be direct and honest about what I'm angry about, or I'm going to pretend I'm not angry, in which case all effective communication ceases because I'm now covering up my feelings.
[01:40:50]  I'm not being direct.
[01:40:51]  And, you know, the honesty of our interaction, which I think is kind of what you're looking for and what Certainly, I try to offer as much as possible.
[01:40:58]  The honesty of our interaction would end if I had to self censor and be dishonest because of your discomfort with anger.
[01:41:07]  I mean, how are you supposed to overcome your discomfort with anger?
[01:41:10]  Not have anyone ever be angry with you?
[01:41:11]  Well, no.
[01:41:12]  But have healthy people be angry with you to realize that anger is a good thing.
[01:41:18]  It's fine.
[01:41:18]  There's nothing wrong with it.
[01:41:19]  It's healthy.
[01:41:21]  And you, like me, can do things that annoy people, believe it or not.
[01:41:26]  A few people over the years have been annoyed by things I've done on the internet.
[01:41:29]  You'd never know it.
[01:41:30]  It's very subtle.
[01:41:31]  It's very subtle.
[01:41:32]  I think that anger is not healthy, but whatever, right?
[01:41:35]  But people are perfectly fine to be angry with me or annoyed with me.
[01:41:39]  That's fine.
[01:41:40]  I can do those things.
[01:41:41]  But how do you cure a fear of anger?
[01:41:44]  Do you just say, well, I'm never.
[01:41:46]  We know this, right?
[01:41:46]  How do you cure a fear of spiders?
[01:41:48]  Progressive exposure.
[01:41:50]  You look at pictures of spiders, your little spider on the back of your hand, blah, blah, blah.
[01:41:53]  I hate bugs.
[01:41:54]  My daughter would go to these giant conservatories.
[01:41:57]  And there'd be these big giant bugs, and she, oh, put it on your arm.
[01:42:01]  Anyway, I did it.
[01:42:02]  Fine.
[01:42:02]  You got over it.
[01:42:03]  So, progressive exposure.
[01:42:04]  So, if I'm angry with you or annoyed, should I say, well, he's too delicate a flower because of his bad parents who were abusive with their anger?
[01:42:14]  He's too delicate a flower.
[01:42:15]  So now I have to self censor and pretend I'm not angry when I am.
[01:42:19]  But that's letting your parents win.
[01:42:20]  And that's letting your parents dictate the honesty of my interaction.
[01:42:24]  And it's letting abusive people dictate how honest I am, which I simply will not do.
[01:42:30]  I'm not going to let the fact that your parents were bad and your brother was bad dictate my honesty in this conversation because that's letting bad people censor and silence good people.
[01:42:39]  I think I'm a pretty good person.
[01:42:41]  Did you see what I mean?
[01:42:42]  I totally grasp that.
[01:42:43]  It makes total sense.
[01:42:45]  I think one of the things I'm really grasping from our conversation is how much I self censor in terms of my own anger.
[01:42:56]  I don't think I really express it at all.
[01:43:00]  And you were kind of annoyed with me that I'd spent so much time.
[01:43:03]  On your family stuff and not enough on the doom pilling and so on, right?
[01:43:09]  I got that.
[01:43:14]  I was more confused.
[01:43:18]  I got a sense of annoyance, which is fine.
[01:43:20]  I'm not criticizing.
[01:43:21]  And I'm not saying I'm right.
[01:43:22]  I'm just saying I got a sense of annoyance.
[01:43:24]  But one of the reasons why we had to spend so much time on your family was what?
[01:43:29]  I'm not sure.
[01:43:31]  Because you were a long way from getting truth about your family.
[01:43:34]  And there was a lot of resistance in talking about things with regards to your family.
[01:43:39]  And there was a lot of changed stories.
[01:43:40]  Do you remember I said, like, I don't really know what to say at this point because you said it was an issue?
[01:43:45]  Because the whole time we were working on your family, we hadn't connected the dots to the point where we could move on to the next topic.
[01:43:51]  And I found out why afterwards, because after we'd spent an hour plus on your family, you said, no, but it's fine.
[01:43:56]  They're a long way away.
[01:43:57]  I don't see them that often.
[01:43:58]  And the whole relationship's all on my terms, which means we hadn't gotten to the truth about your family because if we had, you would.
[01:44:05]  Never say something like that.
[01:44:06]  And that's why I said, like, I don't really know what to say from here.
[01:44:09]  And it's not a big criticism.
[01:44:11]  I'm just sort of telling you my experience.
[01:44:12]  Yeah.
[01:44:12]  Yeah.
[01:44:13]  You're just being straight up.
[01:44:15]  Because if you say, well, I can't, I can't, because we'd already said, I think we'd already acknowledged that you can't talk to your brother honestly because he's violent and you can't have any conflicts with him because he's violent and you wouldn't know what to do with your father if he drank too much, blah, blah, blah.
[01:44:28]  And you kept saying, well, it's not a big issue now, but we were talking about why you haven't had kids over the last 10 years.
[01:44:32]  And, you know, that wasn't super clear.
[01:44:33]  So I'm not going to give you any fault on that.
[01:44:35]  But, But then you say, no, no, the relationship with my parents is totally fine and my brother because it's on my terms.
[01:44:43]  It's like, no, it's not.
[01:44:45]  Unless your terms are subjugation, silence, and fear.
[01:44:48]  Yeah, I certainly misspoke when I said on my terms.
[01:44:51]  Well, see, now you're doing it again, right?
[01:44:54]  It's not a misspeaker.
[01:44:56]  No, you're now minimizing what you said.
[01:44:58]  But that means it matters to me because I could say about anything, well, he's just misspeaking.
[01:45:03]  I'm not going to listen to him because he can make a crazy claim like, and you didn't even notice, right?
[01:45:08]  You said the relationship, and you said it in three different ways.
[01:45:10]  The relationship is not a big issue.
[01:45:11]  I don't see them very often.
[01:45:13]  They don't live too close.
[01:45:15]  I traveled a lot, and the relationship is all on my terms.
[01:45:18]  That's not just misspeaking, right?
[01:45:19]  You don't misspeak four times in a row.
[01:45:21]  So when you say you're misspeaking, that's again not particularly direct.
[01:45:26]  Okay.
[01:45:26]  Yeah.
[01:45:26]  Yeah.
[01:45:28]  So my suggestion remains the same as it always has, which is I think you need to have an honest conversation with your brother and your parents.
[01:45:35]  And you need to date people who care about you enough to say that that's an important conversation to have.
[01:45:39]  Because if you're dating an honest woman, She's not going to want to see you self censored and it's not going to want to self censor around your parents, right?
[01:45:46]  And your brother.
[01:45:49]  This is interesting.
[01:45:50]  I wasn't expecting you to say that.
[01:45:51]  And she's not going to want to see you humiliated and frightened in the face of your family because A, that's kind of icky.
[01:46:00]  And B, she really cares about you.
[01:46:01]  And you can't care about someone and also really love the people who've done them the most harm and who continue to silence them and frighten them when they're pushing 50.
[01:46:11]  If that makes sense.
[01:46:11]  That's interesting.
[01:46:12]  I genuinely, it does.
[01:46:14]  Of course, it does.
[01:46:15]  I genuinely wasn't expecting you to take a stance on my having a conversation with my own family about the historical stuff, which is, I almost find it strange to hear myself say that because I've listened to your show so much.
[01:46:33]  I think somehow I thought in my mind, it's so ancient history now.
[01:46:38]  No, not if the fear is present.
[01:46:39]  Not if the fear is present.
[01:46:40]  Not if the fear is present.
[01:46:41]  If you still can't talk honestly and openly with your family, it's not ancient history because it's happening right now.
[01:46:47]  Yeah.
[01:46:49]  Yeah, there's self censorship for sure.
[01:46:51]  And what was the first thing I said to you about your communication style?
[01:46:56]  Please stop self censoring.
[01:46:57]  Please stop with all these pauses.
[01:46:59]  Please stop being so careful about every word you say.
[01:47:01]  That habit doesn't come out of nowhere, right?
[01:47:03]  Oh, yeah, you did.
[01:47:04]  Yeah.
[01:47:06]  Yeah, God, so much self-censorship.
[01:47:09]  I kind of imagined I might have had the conversation already because I, like I explained in my mid-30s, I did sit down with my mom and dad and I told my dad how much I despise his drinking and how much I felt it had affected his family.
[01:47:24]  There was an apology and then two months down the line, a more sincere apology with tears and it felt really heartfelt.
[01:47:32]  Okay.
[01:47:32]  Did you tell your parents about how your brother had bullied you?
[01:47:35]  And that was very damaging to you.
[01:47:36]  And that's on them too.
[01:47:38]  I can't remember if I brought that into the picture.
[01:47:40]  I think he would remember.
[01:47:41]  I think he would remember.
[01:47:43]  Because then they would have gone and talked to your brother and there would have been a whole thing, right?
[01:47:47]  So, for sure.
[01:47:49]  And you certainly haven't talked to your brother since your mid 30s about this kind of stuff for fear that he's going to blow up and assault you.
[01:47:56]  Yeah.
[01:47:57]  I suppose my rationalization would be sleeping dogs lie, get on okay now, that kind of rationalization, you know?
[01:48:05]  Yeah.
[01:48:05]  But you only get on okay because you self censor.
[01:48:09]  Yeah.
[01:48:10]  Appeasement.
[01:48:11]  Chamberlain, right?
[01:48:12]  Yeah, appeasement.
[01:48:14]  Yeah, this is the main takeaway from the combo that I self censored far more than I realized I still did.
[01:48:23]  Right.
[01:48:24]  Which is important to know.
[01:48:26]  Yeah, I would talk to your parents about what happened with your brother.
[01:48:29]  Your father still drinks, right?
[01:48:30]  Although less.
[01:48:32]  Yes.
[01:48:32]  Yeah.
[01:48:33]  But less.

=== Unblocking the Heart for Love (01:09) ===

[01:48:35]  Okay.
[01:48:35]  Still a fair amount.
[01:48:37]  Right.
[01:48:37]  So that's not good.
[01:48:38]  If you say to someone, your drinking is really painful for me and they keep drinking, that's not great.
[01:48:42]  Means they're choosing drinking over your peace of mind.
[01:48:45]  And I would definitely open up the sibling stuff and figure out what's going on there because your heart is just not going to be available.
[01:48:52]  If you have a principle of appeasement to maintain a relationship, then every time someone gets annoyed with you, you panic, freak out in a sense, and appease, which means you're trying to control other people's temper, which means your self censorship then goes to other people's.
[01:49:08]  They have to censor themselves and they can't get mad.
[01:49:10]  And, you know, quality, honest, expressive women won't find that particularly appealing.
[01:49:14]  If that makes sense, it totally does.
[01:49:17]  Good.
[01:49:18]  I'm afraid I do have another call, my friend.
[01:49:20]  I'm going to have to close this down, but I really do appreciate the conversation.
[01:49:24]  I'm glad we stuck it out.
[01:49:25]  And I hope that you get that, you know, people can get annoyed with you.
[01:49:28]  It doesn't mean they're right.
[01:49:29]  It doesn't mean I was right.
[01:49:30]  I could have been entirely unjustly annoyed with you, but it doesn't have to become negative or abusive.
[01:49:34]  And I think it can, in fact, be quite helpful and healthy, if that makes sense.
[01:49:38]  It does.
[01:49:38]  Thanks a lot for your time, Steph.
[01:49:39]  You're welcome, my friend.
[01:49:40]  Hope you'll keep me posted.
[01:49:41]  All the best, right?
[01:49:43]  Thank you very much.
[01:49:43]  Cheers.