Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - My Dad Dealt METH - I am Disabled! CALL IN SHOW

Jan. 31, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:11:06

My Dad Dealt METH - I am Disabled! CALL IN SHOW

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Listening To Connect 00:02:54
	Calling in really just some advice of where to go from this point in my life.
	I know you saw a little bit from the email.
	Yeah, do you want to read that or do you want to tell me about that?
	Well, I grew up an only child.
	I've always been a loner.
	I've always been an introvert.
	And I'd been on disability since I was 18 and came out of a really unstable house, really unstable home.
	And I lived from the time I was about 18 or so until the time I was about 30, in my early 30s, I lived alone.
	And I never had any intention of having children, never had any intention of even being in any kind of relationship.
	But through, I would say, really through motivation from listening to various YouTubers, including yourself, I started really trying to put myself out there.
	And I got lucky to and I mean, I don't know how much into detail you want me to go, but I don't either, but I'm certainly happy to keep listening.
	Everything's fine so far.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	I mean, when I started out, I was very much, I was very much a leftist, very much very, very liberal.
	And I would say listening to listening not just to you, but a lot of these different guys back in the day really what they say really red-pilled me on a lot of things.
	So I was I was I almost became nihilistic at a point and so around 20 after the pandemic, this is around 2021, I finally said, okay, I'm going to go out and I'm going to try to get in some kind of relationship.
	But I was I thought it was impossible to get anywhere with women.
	And so I tried I tried entering into a gay relationship and I had a series of encounters that were not very wise.
Searching For Connection 00:05:30
	And sorry, what do you mean?
	I met some random people on a gay dating app and trying to find connection.
	I was looking for some sort of connection, some sort of emotional.
	Oh, you mean like you, you had hookups on like Grindr or something like that, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	So you just met men and basically the point is to get together for anonymous sex.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	It was that.
	I think for me it was more using that as a way for some kind of close emotional closeness to somebody, which I felt I'd never really had.
	And I tried to start a serious relationship with a guy and he completely turned me down.
	And so one night I thought, well, what if I tried asking a woman just for the heck of it?
	Because I really felt I had nothing to lose.
	And I asked this woman out.
	I'm sorry.
	How old were you at this point?
	I was 32.
	32.
	Okay.
	Go ahead.
	And I'd never, this was the beginning of my dating life and sexual life.
	So I asked this woman out, and she said, yeah.
	And she said, when I'm sorry, did you meet her on an app or did you know her in life?
	She worked at a grocery store where I had been, I frequently went to.
	Okay, so you asked out a catchy or something like that.
	Okay, got it.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yes.
	And to my surprise, she said yes.
	And she said she lived in another state, actually.
	She drove here from another state.
	And she said once they moved up here, she would be willing to date.
	Well, I didn't think much of it.
	I actually even forgot to ask her name.
	And over time, it was over a couple months' time.
	My family found out about this.
	They ran into her in there and she had asked about me.
	And they found out about it.
	And I was really embarrassed.
	I'm so sorry.
	Were you still living at home at the time with your parents?
	I was living by myself, but my parents also go in there.
	They also frequent that same store.
	Okay, got it.
	And sorry, but why were you embarrassed?
	Did they embarrass you or were you embarrassed for some other reason?
	I was just always really, all my life, I'd always been really embarrassed at the idea of the idea of dating.
	For some reason, I always had a real hang-up about the idea of anything like that, especially with women.
	Oddly enough, I would have felt more comfortable telling them that I was dating a guy than that I was dating a woman.
	I don't know why, but that's how it was.
	Okay, so what happened after your parents sat out?
	My dad actually, he kind of helped me.
	He was kind of like a wingman.
	He was explaining, he was trying to really help me out in a lot of ways.
	And he told the girl that he warned her that I had some probably autism going on.
	And she was still open to the idea of dating me.
	She said she had two autistic nephews.
	And so we started communicating on text message.
	And we finally went out on a date.
	I actually first, I helped her move into her new house.
	And then our first date, she came over to my apartment and I cooked dinner for us.
	And from this point, things escalated wildly.
	I mean, my life just kind of turned into a whirlwind from this point through because of some drama in her family.
	Actually ended up moving in with me pretty quick and uh, moved into my apartment and right away I was like well, i'm so sorry, how old?
	So you're 32, 33 at this point.
	And how old is she?
	She was 28 28 okay so sorry, go ahead.
	And she had also um, you know she, she had all she had also, I mean, she had dated, but she had never um, she had never actually had had like full-on sex with with a guy.
Reaching Decisions Together 00:12:48
	She she was, and I I confirmed this with everybody that she knew it was, she was always saving herself for somebody and that was really that was really endearing.
	I thought that was really sweet.
	And was that for religious reasons or other reasons?
	I think so.
	I think.
	I think it was.
	I think it had a lot to do with the way she was raised.
	Sorry did, but she must have told you, did she tell you why she was not having sex?
	She said she just felt it wasn't right.
	She she did sexual things with, with both.
	I mean, she did sexual things with both uh, men and women, but she didn't have access, she didn't have uh, intercourse.
	Oh, so you're both bisexual?
	Yes yeah okay, just just checking.
	Okay, go ahead.
	And um so uh, so she moved in with me, I got to know her family really well and we, we got along really well.
	And I got it in my head right away.
	I said well, i've put some money, i've had some money aside.
	I need to, I need to buy us a house.
	So I got to work on that.
	Another thing, I didn't even drive at this time.
	I didn't have a car.
	So I said well, i've got this money, I need to buy a car.
	And so I thought you said you'd been on disability, so where did the money come from?
	I was, I was allowed to save some.
	I was allowed to save some of it.
	Oh okay, so you and and and did you?
	You had low living expenses and you were allowed to save the extra from disability.
	Is that right?
	Oh yeah yeah, I had very low living disabilities at this time um, particularly during the uh Pandemic, when there were uh stimulus payments coming in from from the president.
	Okay, and you were living alone, but your expenses are very low, is that right?
	Yes okay, got it.
	And so I used this wisely to to, to buy these things and bought this car.
	And she actually taught me to drive.
	Up to this point i'd just driven a scooter around.
	I'd driven a motor scooter around, she taught me to drive and my dad helped me buy this tiny little house.
	Um, and it wasn't long before we moved in there and um, I was starting to have a lot of emotional issues because this there, things were happening really fast and it was, it was, it was I was happy, but it was also very, very stressful, sorry.
	When you say things were happening, I mean the weather happens right, I mean you were making choices right yes yes I, I was okay.
	So you weren't happy fast?
	Well okay, but the choices were happening fast, but you can also choose to slow down right yes, I felt that if I didn't do things this way, if I didn't move this way at the speed, that I would lose her.
	And why?
	Because again, i'm sorry, why did you think that?
	I'm not saying you're wrong?
	I just, I'm not sure what the thinking process is.
	I mean, to say, you know, where we've just met, I mean, how long was it before you helped her move in that she moved in with you?
	It was about a month after we started dating that, or maybe less than a month, that she moved in.
	Okay, so a couple of weeks after you started dating, she moved in.
	And neither of you have any particular relationship experience, right?
	Hers was minimal.
	She didn't have a lot of relationships there.
	Okay.
	But she had had some.
	Okay, and you said it was drama about her family.
	Is that like she said, there's bad things going on in my family, so I need to come live with you?
	She, her situation was she had when she moved here, she was living with her sister and her sister's boyfriend.
	And the agreement they had made was that her sister's boyfriend would buy this house that they moved into, and she would live there with them and help pay the bills and help raise her sister's two children.
	But her and her sister's boyfriend butted heads over a lot of things.
	And we just kicked her.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Were the sisters' children by this boyfriend or by some other man or man by a different man?
	Okay, so this is like a guy who was not related to the children living there.
	Right.
	Okay, got it.
	So she butted heads and he kicked her out?
	Yes.
	Huh?
	And so her sister.
	Hang on.
	So her sister let her boyfriend, what, kick out her sister?
	Why didn't he just say, no, she's staying and deal with her boyfriend?
	I don't know.
	She ended up, her sister sort of ended up siding with the boyfriend in a lot of ways and saying, telling the kids, well, you know, your aunt shouldn't have acted that way.
	Those sort of things.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So then she moves in with you within a couple of weeks.
	And if you felt, if you said, look, I sympathize.
	I can't.
	I mean, we've just started seeing each other.
	We need a little bit more time.
	Maybe I can help you out if you need some rent money or whatever.
	But that wasn't, I mean, you felt that wasn't an option.
	But you saw, I mean, I'm not, I'm just trying to map it.
	I don't have any judgment about anything.
	I'm just trying to map.
	So you felt like, well, you should come live with me because you've got no other place to go or something like that, right?
	Right.
	And I was happy to have her move in, but it was kind of shocking that it happened that we decided to do that so quickly.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So I just wanted to make sure that so you felt you couldn't slow things down because if she slowed things down, she might not date you.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	And, you know, it all goes back to what I, what I, all the hundreds of hours of listening to the red pill content of thinking, okay, if I don't constantly try to impress her, then she's going to lose interest in me.
	Oh, so this didn't come from you.
	This didn't come from her.
	This came from like other vloggers or something like that.
	So it didn't come from her and she said, if you don't let me move in, I'm going to dump you.
	This didn't come from her.
	This was just something that you thought or felt based upon some other input, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Okay.
	It was just, it was all me, pretty much.
	All of these ideas, it was just all me.
	And so now I do want one thing I need to mention, I want to stop and mention this, is that up until this point in my life, I had been, since I was a child, I'd been an atheist.
	And in the years leading up to when I met this girl, I had been in a deep dive.
	I mean, years-long deep dive into philosophy, into theology, because I was determined, okay, I want to know what is the truth about all this.
	You know, there's people who believe these things.
	I want to, I just want to know what the truth is, no matter what it is, no matter how uncomfortable it is.
	And so that was reaching that was reaching its head right at the time I started dating her.
	I was deep in this, studying this.
	And so to me, I think it was just an there was just a whole act of, it was just a whole act of desperation at the moment.
	I was trying to, I was trying to figure myself out.
	I was trying to understand life.
	And I mean, this is going to sound bad.
	It's going to sound convenient, but this, the events that happened with the girl I was dating ended up helping convince me in the reality of God.
	It helped me up until this point, this all had been purely intellectual for me.
	I had studied all of this, but the events that I'm about to explain, they all led me to the conclusion that, okay, not everything in the world, maybe not everything in the world is purely causal.
	Maybe there is an outside force that interferes.
	So back to back to back to what I was saying with my yeah, but just calling her assuming, if that's right.
	Yeah.
	Sue.
	Okay, so Sue, her and I hit, her and I got along very well from the very beginning.
	And I got along with her family and she got along with mine.
	And I was really pushing for us to get married.
	I really felt it was, especially as I was becoming religious, you know, I was becoming more sure that, okay, maybe I'm, maybe I really do believe this, Christianity.
	I was like, maybe I do believe this.
	And because I've been sort of gifted this in my life, I owe something to God.
	I need to, I need to, I need to be respectful of this.
	And so before that could happen, she got pregnant.
	And we, I had wanted, I, again, I had never wanted a child in my life.
	I'd never wanted a relationship.
	But you were having unprotected sex, is that right?
	We were using condoms, but sometimes, yes, it had been unprotected.
	Okay, so she didn't get an effort.
	You guys chose to get pregnant or chose to take that risk, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	I mean, I think you got to use them every time.
	I'm not an expert, but I think.
	Okay, so you guys chose to get pregnant or at least take that risk.
	Yeah, I think both of us wanted a child, but we were both afraid.
	No, no, I get that.
	And I'm just going to nag you about this passive language.
	She got pregnant.
	It's like, no, you know, you chose to engage in unprotected sex.
	So you chose pregnancy.
	Right.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	I just, because I don't, I don't, the perception is probably that, it seems to be the perception is that things are happening to you, but they're not.
	You're making choices.
	Yes, that is true.
	And I'm sorry to be an act, but okay, so she gets pregnant and then what?
	And I think everybody was really surprised.
	Both families were really surprised, but I was really happy by it.
	And to me, it felt right with her.
	It wouldn't have been with anybody else.
	I would have never felt that way.
	I never would have wanted a child ever.
	But I felt that that's something that she felt like she deserved that.
	I felt that it was my job to make her life better in some way to give her some sort of stability.
	Because to me, she seems such a, she, and I, and I still, she is.
	She is such a sweet soul.
	She is a very rare type of person.
	And that's really what, that's really how I fell in love with her to begin with: is that I wasn't there was I wasn't really drawn to anything to do with looks.
	I didn't even notice that there was anything pretty about her physically.
	I was drawn to her kindness, and there was just something about her that was different.
	And so I felt like I needed to have a life with her.
	It had to happen.
Falling In Love Sacrificially 00:05:03
	But one of the things I started to realize was when you do that, when you enter into that with somebody, it is very sacrificial.
	You give up a lot.
	And that in the several years since then, that's been a big issue with me is trying to figure out the difference between the boundaries between being a family and also being your own person at the same time.
	Oh, so sorry, you ended up getting a job or something?
	No, I stayed interested in studying studying philosophy.
	Oh, so you're sorry, you're still on disability, is that right?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	And sorry, you said you got on at 18, and for what, what cause it was autism and autism and major anxiety, major depression, sex-compulsive disorder, and also issues with my vision.
	Okay.
	And when did you first start to have the mental health issues?
	When I was 15, right in the middle of high school.
	And before that, you were more or less okay?
	I think I'd always had there were kind of warning signs of it, but I was able to function fairly well decently up until that point.
	And what happened at 15?
	Everything started to become my world started to become too much for me, started to become overwhelming.
	And I had a complete nervous breakdown.
	And I mean, over about a year's time, my grades in school just I stopped doing work.
	No, and I understand, but what happened externally, do you think, that might have triggered that, if anything?
	My parents were having problems.
	I don't know if it triggered that because I feel like there was a lot that was already genetically present in me, but it may have triggered that.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	What do you mean?
	I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I'm just, what do you mean by genetically present?
	There was a history of mental illness on both sides of my family.
	So I don't know if that influenced me or not.
	Yeah, I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that genetics would necessarily show up at 15.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So things began to be too much.
	Was there anything in particular that was like when you get into your mid-teens, it's usually the dating world and the social world and so on.
	And you said you'd always been solitary since you were a baby.
	Now, of course, you don't know that, introverted and solitary, because we can't really know what we were like as babies.
	But how much did your parents help prepare you for the dating and social world that you would start to really be entering into at 15?
	Well, I was, I mean, I let them know when I started middle school that I was not going to date anybody.
	I wasn't interested in it.
	And I was like 12?
	Sorry, I'm what's middle school for you?
	13?
	Yeah, yes, it was, I was, I think it's when I was 11 or 12.
	I anticipated all the changes that were coming up in puberty.
	It terrified me, and it really disgusted me that I was going to become an adult.
	Okay, so why do you think it disgusted you?
	I mean, a lot of kids are eager to become an adult, you know, to be able to get out there and get into the world and be independent.
	And like a lot of kids are chomping at the bit with that, and you weren't, which is fine.
	But why do you think it disgusted you to become an adult?
	I believe it just, I can't really, I don't really know.
	I mean, it just seemed, it seemed, gosh, it almost, it really, you know, looking back on it, it almost, I was almost like the guy in the Catcher in the Rye, where there seemed almost an impurity about growing up or a destruction of.
	Yeah, but he'd been, I mean, that character had been sexually abused as a child, so his disgust had more to do with being used as a flashlight by adults as a kid.
Caught Between Worlds 00:12:18
	So why do you think it was the case with you?
	I mean, what was your childhood like before 11 or 12?
	Like I said, I was always, I mean, I played alone.
	Until I was nine years old, I was an only child.
	Yeah, but that doesn't mean you play alone, right?
	I mean, my daughter's an only child, right?
	So, but she's got great social skills.
	So being an only child doesn't mean that you're isolated.
	That's kind of a cliche, but it's not true necessarily.
	So why do you think you were so alone in your childhood?
	Not sure.
	I just know all of you.
	Sure, you are.
	You're a smart guy, Mr. Philosophy.
	Come on.
	You've been 14 years studying self-knowledge and philosophy.
	Why were you alone as a child?
	You can't give me this I don't know after 14 years of studying the truth, right?
	Well, I mean, I can say for sure that my parents weren't a big part of my life.
	I was raised by my, mostly by my grandparents.
	Oh, where were your parents?
	My dad was he was technically there.
	He was technically present, but he stayed gone all night to friends' houses.
	Oh, so he was Gone.
	Yeah, he did, from what I understand, he did a lot of illegal things at night.
	And during the day, I know he was involved with drugs.
	I know he was involved with theft.
	I mean, when I was a kid, he would take me with him a lot of times to a lot of these really shady people's homes.
	Sorry, did he work during the day or was he mostly a criminal?
	He had a car business, a car lot that he ran during the day.
	Oh, like a car salesplay.
	Yes.
	So that could be pretty good money if he's running it.
	So why was he stealing or drug running or whatever he was doing?
	I think he was just really immature.
	And I don't think he was ready for, I don't think he was ready for having a family.
	And what was his cultural background?
	He was the youngest of four boys.
	He was raised by very traditional parents, very, very Southern Baptist Christian parents.
	And his city?
	It's white.
	Okay, interesting.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Got it.
	So he had a good job during the day, but he decided to run drugs and steal at night.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And your mother?
	My mom was, she worked and she went to college.
	And while she was doing that, I was left with my grandparents or with babysitters.
	My dad would not watch me.
	He would sleep during the day.
	Right.
	And sorry to interrupt.
	Why do you think your mother was drawn to a criminal?
	I've asked her that.
	She said that she felt that he was safe because when she first met him, he seemed safer than most men she had known growing up.
	He was kind and sweet to her.
	But the more negative parts of him came out after they got together.
	Oh, so she didn't know anything.
	Her claim is that she didn't know anything about his criminal tendencies until they got married?
	Yes, yes.
	I don't think they dated very long.
	Huh, okay.
	So when she says safe, she means that he was not going to hit her or he had a lot of money or I'm not sure what she means by safe in this context.
	In her case, she'd grown up with a dad who was very physically abusive and an alcoholic and a cheater, constantly cheating on her mother.
	And she had witnessed a lot of just violence, a lot of vile things.
	And she felt that my dad was a nice guy.
	He seemed that way.
	And in a way, and he is.
	He really is what you would think of as a criminal.
	He's not really the hardened type of dude.
	But he's not a nice guy.
	Yeah, he's done some pretty pretty shady things, you know.
	Okay, I don't find that funny.
	I'm not sure what's funny about that.
	Yeah, it's just how I cope with things, I think.
	No, it's not.
	Nobody copes with that.
	They avoid it.
	Come on, I'm going to put you in the advanced column, 14 years of studying truth philosophy.
	You should be beyond laughing about criminal parents.
	Now, did your mother ever suggest to your father that he spend more time with you?
	Yes.
	She did that constantly.
	Okay.
	And I guess he didn't listen, right?
	Right.
	I mean, he, like I said, he would take me with him at night.
	No, no, no.
	To spend more time with your kids and bring him along in your shady theft drug deals.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Right.
	Did he ever get caught?
	That was.
	He, well, see, that's that leads us to how they ended up getting divorced when I was in high school.
	He moved on to really advanced drugs.
	He started.
	He started a meth operation.
	Oh, God.
	And the only reason he got caught is because the woman, he was cheating on my mom with this woman who was using meth.
	Holy God.
	This is just appalling.
	Yes.
	No, stop laughing.
	Stop saying, you've got to stop laughing, please.
	All right.
	Please.
	This is so disconnected.
	I can't do the convo if you're laughing about this.
	I mean, your dad was responsible for corrupting a community and putting people's lives at risk, damaging their health, and possibly even killing them by running a meth lab, and you're laughing.
	People die from this shit.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	We found, I mean, my mom went in and showed me where he had hid a lot of the materials in our house, in our basement.
	And she knew over the years that he was doing some kind of petty crime, but she didn't realize how bad it had gotten.
	No, no.
	No, we don't.
	I don't know that.
	You don't know that.
	It's just what she said.
	Yeah.
	I didn't know he was a real criminal.
	How the hell are you supposed to know, or I'm supposed to know, what a woman who's having sex with a meth lord says to be true?
	That's just what she told me.
	I know, I know.
	Oh, look at that.
	A woman who's saying, oh, I really wasn't to blame.
	Oh, I really, I didn't know.
	Come on.
	That's as predictable as sunrise.
	I didn't know he was mean.
	I didn't know he was running a dress lab.
	I didn't know.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Come on.
	How many math your wives say?
	Oh, I knew everything.
	Yeah, I think that's the way it seemed to me because it all came out to me at that time.
	Sorry, what all came out to you?
	About the meth lab and about him cheating on her with the okay, so he got caught because his meth tramp, what, got caught and turned him in?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And then what happened?
	How old were you then?
	I was 16.
	Right.
	And so you started to have severe mental health issues when your dad moved into the meth business.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	You think that might be related?
	I'm not saying you knew, but you're a very smart guy with very good instincts.
	So you must have known something was weird or different.
	Yeah, it probably did affect me.
	Yeah.
	You think?
	So I, you know, at this point, I was very ambitious with school.
	I had put a lot of expectations on myself for the kind of career I wanted to be.
	I wanted to go into the sciences.
	No, no, hang on, hang on.
	We weren't talking about you.
	We were talking about your parents.
	Okay.
	So what happened when your dad was caught and then what?
	And he Was he was facing a lot of jail time, but he was able to make a deal with he was able to make a deal with the court where he went to he went to something called drug court.
	It was like a it was sort of a class rehabilitation class, very strict.
	Where for you sorry to interrupt, your dad was dealing meth and cooking and growing math, and he got rehab?
	Yeah, that doesn't I'm not an expert, I'm not a lawyer, but that seems that seems unusual to me.
	I don't know if he named any names because sometimes they give you less less severe punishment if you name other people who are involved.
	I don't know if he did that or what, but somehow or another he he he only had to do the rehab.
	And now he he was monitored for two years.
	They they they watched every movement he made, they called him every night to make sure he was home, and it was a it was an intense class that he went to.
	I remember that, but uh, he did manage, I mean, he did manage to eventually give up using it because he was using it and selling and making manufacturing, right?
	Yes, but when he was arrested, I mean, he lost everything, he lost his whole life because of what he did, and but he was a poison push, it took him a long time.
	I mean, don't don't don't ask me for sympathy for this guy, like whatever you do, I mean, you can ask if you want, but don't oh, he had he was monitored.
	Oh, he lost everything, bro, was pushing poison into the veins of his community, yeah, cheating on your mom, storing dangerous and illegal materials in your house after neglecting and ignoring his son and being a serial drug dealer, dealer, and thief for as long as you've known him, right?
	And at this point, we moved out of we moved out of the house we'd lived in and moved into an apartment complex, me and my mom and my brother.
	And was your dad working?
	He was he was still running his car a lot, um, and of course he was going to the drug program that he had to do, and he would try to come around, he would try to get back with my mom.
	Oh, sorry, we I missed the part.
	So, sorry, when he was arrested, they split up they had split up a little bit before that.
	Um, he uh I forget the series of events, but he she had found out about it, and they I mean, she'd they they they didn't split up right away.
She Tried To Make It Work 00:04:13
	She had tried to make it work.
	This is this is what she said.
	She had tried to make it work with him.
	I don't know how she thought she could make it work after that, but she did.
	And but eventually we realized that so so sorry, he your father was caught after being a serial criminal for most of the life that you knew him.
	And tell me if I got anything wrong.
	Your father was caught cheating with a meth junkie, growing, distributing, and using meth, and your mom wanted to work it out.
	Yeah, I don't know if it was just for the sake she had mentioned something about for being for the sake of me and my brother, but wait, what?
	What brother?
	Hang on, hang on.
	What brother?
	Only child?
	Where's the brother?
	Well, I was saying that when I was nine, I was a single or I was an only child until I was nine, and my brother was born.
	And oh, sorry.
	Sorry if I missed that.
	Okay, so you've got a brother who's nine years younger.
	Okay.
	So but your father is not around and is putting the entire family at risk.
	Because if a drug deal goes bad, don't they take it out on the family sometimes?
	Yeah, that was she was afraid of that at first.
	You think?
	She was afraid he was afraid.
	So why, why, like, what is wrong with your mother that she can't peel herself free from a dangerous, drug-addicted, cheating with a junkie criminal?
	I don't know.
	That's that's part of Jesus.
	No wonder you're scared of women.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	That was a big part of me growing up, realizing that, okay, she has her faults.
	She's not the perfect person I'd like.
	She has her faults?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	No, no.
	I mean, seriously, she has her faults.
	Yeah.
	And she's a mall.
	She fucks criminals.
	She, right?
	She has her faults is, oh, sometimes she can be a little fussy about tidying or wants things done a certain way.
	That was a fault.
	This is not a fault.
	She knowingly gave a child to a career criminal in terms of your brother because she could say, well, I didn't know when I met him, but she sure as hell knew by the time you were nine, right?
	Yeah, she did.
	So she gave a child, which is the biggest gift a woman can give a man.
	She gave a child to a criminal.
	Yeah.
	And she admitted to me that she really panicked that my brother was, that she got pregnant with my brother, that she had.
	She says that in both, she actually said that in the case of both me and my brother, we were born because of, in my case, the birth control didn't work right.
	Some kind of chemical reaction caused the birth control not to work.
	Well, that's what she says.
	I mean, sorry, that's what she says.
	I don't tend to take people who have sex with criminals and keep children around them and give them children.
	I don't tend to view them as particularly trustworthy in terms of truth and responsibility.
	But, okay, so she says, oh, chemical reaction didn't work.
	I got pregnant.
	All right.
	And I've always sorry, go ahead.
	I've always kind of suspected with her that she didn't actually ever want kids.
	Like, she says she did, but I really don't, from her choices she made, I don't think she really wanted kids.
	Okay.
	Then she should have given you up.
	Right?
	Yeah, we might.
	I mean, if I don't want a dog, if I get a dog and, oh, it turns out I don't like having dogs, then I give the dog up, right?
	I find it a good home.
	Right.
	All right.
	All right.
	Okay, so your parents split it up.
	They live separately.
	Is that right?
	And then your dad tries to get back with your mom?
	Yeah, he would come over to the apartment and try to get back with her.
	And I kept asking her, why are you letting him in?
Unfortunate Sexual Imprint 00:03:10
	You know, this is what all he's done.
	And finally, one night I ran him off.
	I had a shouting match with him and told him to get lost.
	And that's because he was sticking around with your mom?
	Like, were they back together or having sex or what?
	He was trying to get back together with her, tried to start things back with her again.
	And she just wasn't, she, she was just, she wasn't.
	She didn't really.
	I don't know what was going on with her where she just didn't see what he was doing.
	Sorry, I don't know what that means.
	Didn't see what he was doing.
	I don't know if she wanted him back or she didn't realize he was trying to sweetheart his way back into her life.
	Bro.
	I hate to be harsh, and I could be wrong, but it's called the sexual fetish that she likes.
	I mean, you see these women with Luigi Mangioni, right?
	The guy who shot the healthcare CEO.
	They love that guy.
	I mean, serial killers get endless letters about sex and marriage and I want you and nudes, right?
	There's a lot of women who have a sexual fetish for criminals.
	That had crossed my mind about her.
	Yeah, I mean, I don't know for sure, but I mean, if you've ever been under the grip of a powerful sexual urge, you know, I mean, I'm sure you have, right?
	But if that powerful sexual urge points you in the wrong direction, I mean, my God, people are turned on by amputees, for God's sakes.
	I mean, there's a lot of freaky shit going on out there in the planet.
	So I assume I could be wrong.
	I don't know for sure.
	But if this kind of guy, I mean, they were together for how long?
	15, 16 years, 17, maybe.
	Yeah, I believe it was 18 years.
	18 years.
	Okay, so she knew that he was, and I'm not blaming her for this because maybe the sexual imprinting, maybe she saw from her mother on violent guys because her dad was violent.
	So I'm not saying she just picked this out of a carousel, right?
	But early sexual imprinting is very powerful.
	And it has to be because, again, you don't know.
	Like when our genetics are born, we don't know if we're in a peaceful society or a violent society.
	We don't know if you're supposed to bring flowers or a club to a date.
	So our genes just imprint on what we see around us, right?
	And so if your mother grew up where the sexually successful women, the protected women, were with violent guys, then she's going to imprint on that, and her sexuality is going to be tuned towards violence and criminality.
	And that's very sad.
	And, you know, I mean, obviously, you should do stuff about it and you can do therapy or self-knowledge and work to undo these associations.
	But I would assume that there is a fetish for criminality, which is, you know, unfortunate.
	It's unfortunate to have it.
	It's unfortunate to certainly to act on it for almost two decades.
Fights Escalate Over Years 00:11:32
	But that's probably why you had to intervene, is that she was drawn back to that, like a gravity well.
	Like you can only fight it for so long if you don't deal with the cause.
	Yeah, and it got worse because after she left my dad, you know, she had she dated for a little while, a little under a year, and she met another guy at a club, and he was a truck driver.
	And once again, she was, she claims she was sort of sweet-talked into it.
	But I think what you're saying is more accurate that she had a criminal fetish.
	And this guy, he ended up being physically abusive in the extreme.
	I lived with them.
	I lived with them for about two years.
	This is right before I moved in by myself.
	I lived with them for about two years, and I saw so many knockdown, drag-out fights.
	So you say in the extreme.
	What does that mean?
	He broke her ribs and nearly killed her.
	And I don't know what all else he had done.
	I wasn't there for all of it, but he put it in the middle of the day.
	You were there for some of it, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And did anyone call the cops?
	Or, I mean, how did this guy not go to jail?
	He went to jail once for assault, and he would have went to prison for a long, long time for the breaking the ribs, but she talked the judge out of it.
	She what?
	Yeah, she forgot how she did it exactly, but she managed to get the sentence down to, I think it was just a few months' time he was in there, and then he had parole for five years.
	And wow.
	So she doesn't even really care about protecting other women that this guy's going to end up beating up in the future.
	Well, she's, she's to this day, she's still with him.
	I think she, I mean, like you're saying, I think she likes it.
	I mean, I told her the last time she went back to him, I said, if something happens to you, I'm just going, I'm just going to think of it as something that you wanted.
	I'm going to think of that as your wish and not as something that was done to you.
	You know?
	Okay, we're back with the laughing, right?
	I mean, you're talking about your mother's death wish.
	We can't be laughing about that, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's serious.
	Okay, so she, I don't know, I don't know how women sweet talk the judge.
	I think that's probably just bullshit, but maybe she refused to testify or press charges.
	Or, I mean, I guess it's out of her hands at that point.
	But if she refuses to testify, maybe I guess she could be subpoenaed.
	I'm not a lawyer or anything like that, but it's doubtful that she just batted her eyelids at the judge and got the sentence reduced.
	Yeah, I don't, it's been 15 years or so, so I don't remember exactly.
	Okay, so he's in jail for a couple of months.
	He comes out, he's on probation for five years, and she takes him back.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So the idea that she didn't know anything about your father's criminality when she got back, when she got together with him, I think we can dismiss as an outright lie because now she knows about this guy's criminality.
	In fact, it's directed against her, and he's welcome in her bed.
	Yeah.
	And is she violent as well?
	No, she, I mean, she's she's fought back against him pretty often.
	I mean, she's knocked his teeth out.
	She knocked a tooth out one time.
	Sorry, how do you know?
	Sorry, how do you know that that's fighting back?
	There are times when she is violent herself.
	I mean, I'm just going off what she told me.
	But no, but you were there, right?
	I mean, you witnessed some of it.
	Did she ever pick fights?
	She, most of the time, things got started when she was really worried about him cheating on her.
	She didn't think anything.
	Okay, I laughed.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	She didn't think anything of the violence.
	She was really worried about the last all day.
	She would say she would accuse him of things and things would escalate between them until at a certain point it would just be.
	Okay, so she's picking fights sometimes.
	You're cheating on me.
	You were with that whore or whatever it is, right?
	I checked your phone.
	So she's picking fights to some degree, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And does she have any substance abuse issues?
	No, as far as I know, I mean, she's just, all she does is she smokes.
	That's all.
	Okay.
	And is she, you said she got her university degree?
	Did she end up working in that field?
	Yeah, she's um she has two bachelor's degrees and a master's degree, and she works, she's a psychiatric nurse.
	Oh, my God, really?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so going back to the old nurse is a crazy kind of cliche, right?
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	Yeah, it's amazing to me that a psychiatric nurse who's supposed to be an expert on mental health is in this kind of mess, but okay.
	And obviously she's very intelligent and it's just such a trashy life.
	But, all right.
	And what's your relationship with your parents at the moment?
	I'm not very close with them.
	No, but you still have a relationship, right?
	I do.
	I see them maybe once or twice a month.
	Okay.
	And why do you see them?
	Well, actually, I see my mom and my stepfather that I was just talking about.
	I see them once or twice a month.
	Usually.
	Sorry, you.
	Whoa, Hang on.
	Hang on.
	You hang out with the guy who almost killed your mother?
	What the fuck?
	No, no, no.
	Help me understand.
	My jaw is on the floor here.
	Like, help me fucking understand this.
	Yeah.
	I, for her sake, because she still wants to be with him.
	I mean, I just.
	For her sake?
	I just.
	For her sake?
	What about your moral judgment?
	I think at a certain point, I just said, I don't care whatever she's doing.
	I just want to be able to visit her.
	And so I just sort of turn a blind eye to whatever is going on.
	Okay.
	But I'll take my son to visit her.
	And now my dad, you'll like this even more.
	My dad's dad.
	My dad actually, he visits several times a week.
	He'll visit us at our house.
	And he takes a lot of interest in my son's life compared to mine and my brother's.
	He's actually babysitted a few times.
	And at this point in his life, he's now 60.
	At this point in his life, I trust him because he's just cleaned up a lot compared to when he was younger.
	And he's very, he's just a more mellow person.
	So that's how things are at the moment.
	Sorry, I thought you said you weren't close to them, but your father visits several times a week.
	I'm trying to square that circle.
	I was thinking about my mom and stepfather.
	I'm not close to them.
	Well, you still visit them once or twice a month, right?
	Yeah.
	And do they come to visit you or?
	Rarely.
	Okay.
	And did your father ever get is he remarried or did he stay single?
	He's dated, but yeah, he stayed single.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And does he work?
	Does he still run the car a lot?
	Yes, he still runs Carlotte.
	He's had a very successful career with Carlot.
	Okay.
	And he never got, did he ever go back to his life of crime, to your knowledge?
	No, not to my knowledge.
	Ah, so he could stop.
	He just didn't stop until he was told to stop.
	He didn't stop for his wife and kids.
	But he stopped when the government got mad.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So that's his incentive.
	He's somebody.
	He's somebody that he's one of the few people I've seen who can quit.
	I mean, he'll quit addictions.
	He's quit cigarettes and just never went back to them.
	He had to quit meth, obviously, because he was facing 20, 30 years in jail.
	Okay.
	And of course, if he informed, which it would be likely, I would assume, then that puts his family in danger, too.
	All right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And what does Sue, your wife, you're married, right?
	Is that right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So what does Sue think of your family?
	She's she didn't realize at first what she was getting into, but she don't get passive on me, bro.
	What did you tell her?
	Which means she didn't realize.
	Did you tell her?
	Oh, yeah.
	I don't think I revealed everything to her at once.
	Okay, that's a false standard because that's a false standard.
	So just give me the facts.
	When did you tell her about your family's history in general?
	I'd say it was probably a couple months after she moved in.
	So before that, she thought you'd had a good childhood?
	I don't think I'd really said anything about it.
	I don't think I'd really said much about my childhood or anything to her.
	Okay, so and how long after you guys met, did she get pregnant?
	I believe it was eight months.
	Okay, so she already knew about your family's history with, and she's having unprotected sex with you.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And what does she think of them now?
	She, well, they've always been very nice to her.
	They've always been very good to her.
	So she likes them.
	But that's worse.
	No, that's worse.
	Because if they were bad to you, but good to her, that's even worse.
	Because it means they know how to be nice.
	They just didn't do it with you.
	Yeah.
	And she's told me that, that they were not good, they were not good parents.
	So she acknowledges that, but I think I guess just because they're nice to her, she's good to them.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And how do you guys, is she working?
Navigating Disability 00:06:18
	How do you guys get your income?
	I mean, you've got your disability, I guess.
	Yeah, she works at a retail store, and that's where she's always worked in retail.
	Okay.
	And you stay home with your son.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	All right.
	So I've done that.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, I've done that since he was born.
	I've tried to be different than my dad.
	Not the greatest father, but I try to be good.
	Okay.
	And do you have any plans or goals, do you think, over the course of your life to get a job?
	Actually, this past, over the past year, I went to CDL school.
	I don't know what that is, sorry.
	To drive commercially, drive 18-wheelers, that sort of thing.
	Sorry, how's that going to fit into you being a father?
	What I was hoping is that I could become a full-time, you know, I could eventually work full-time, and she could watch it most of the time.
	I was hoping to move into.
	I'm not an expert on trucking, but it's a lot of time away from home, isn't it?
	I've talked to the wives of truckers before.
	Right.
	I was hoping to do something that was something that wasn't as intense, like driving a box truck, which is still commercial driving.
	I was hoping to do something that was more local and not as many long hours.
	Okay.
	So I got my license.
	I went.
	I spent a long time at that.
	I got my license.
	But what I didn't realize, everybody else but me seemed to realize this, was that I can't navigate my way out of a paper box, paper bag.
	You said you had vision issues too, right?
	I mean, I assume you can correct that.
	Yes, I was able to get a vision waiver that allowed me to pursue the license.
	But when I found out during the schooling, what I started to find out was that I two things.
	I'm so forgetful to the point that I put myself and others in danger.
	And also that I cannot navigate.
	I can barely get from my town to the nearest town.
	But that must have come up at some point.
	You said you were being taught to drive by Sue, right?
	Your wife?
	Yes.
	So did you, you must have noticed that, right?
	That you had trouble with navigation and forgetfulness.
	It just never occurred to me.
	Sorry, I'm not sure.
	But you mean you never noticed that you weren't able to navigate?
	Sorry, I'm a little confused.
	I think I was just thinking of driving as one whole thing, one group of skills, and that I would be able to overcome any problems I had with more training or with school.
	I mean, so this was taxpayer funded, I assume, right?
	Yes, yes.
	It was through something called vocational rehab.
	Right.
	I mean, so, I mean, you've, you've taken a lot of money from the taxpayer over the years, right?
	Yes, I have.
	I mean, and my intent with this, my sorry, go ahead.
	Go ahead.
	And my intent with this, my sincere intent was to get off of disability and be the full-time breadwinner from a family, because I felt this was something, that this was something that I would, it would be meaningful for me as a career, was something that I liked, and sorry, you mean you liked me.
	Yes yes, as it's very it's a very solitary activity and it's I. In my mind, it was okay this, this could bring us, bring us in a lot of money and this is something I could do as a career.
	So to me, it was a way of getting off disability and also doing something that I felt would be more personally meaningful okay okay, but it's not working out right.
	I mean, you is.
	Is it fair to say that it's not a responsible thing for you to do to drive trucks?
	That's right okay, all right.
	And so when did that?
	When did you realize that I was?
	I think it was really as I started applying to jobs after I graduated the trucking school, it really started to hit home that I had some faults that I might not be able to overcome.
	That might seriously really jeopardize Everybody's well-being.
	Because if I can lose my, I mean, not just people dying.
	No, listen, I understand.
	I understand.
	Yeah, but not being able to drive a truck is bad if you're driving a truck.
	I get that.
	And so, how long ago did you realize that?
	This has been, I would say, about three months.
	And how long was the course overall?
	It was originally supposed, it's supposed to be a month.
	Oh, wow.
	No, you could learn to drive a truck in a month.
	That's cool.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So for me, you're supposed to be.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I was there for seven months.
	Oh.
	They let me come back because I really enjoyed doing it.
	Well, they're getting paid, right?
	So they're fine.
	They're fine.
	They're not paid by you being a truck driver.
	They're paid by you studying truck driving.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So I was determined to, I was determined to show that I could do it.
	Sorry, but when did you first suspect that you couldn't do it?
	I think it was really toward the end.
	I'd started trying to apply to jobs before I got the license.
	And I don't know why.
	For some reason, it never occurred to me that there were certain weaknesses I wouldn't be able to overcome.
	The weaknesses in the driving, you mean?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So do you have any other?
	I mean, so I was asking if you have plans to be employed.
Virtuous Code Dilemma 00:15:45
	You're telling me about something that didn't work out.
	What about the future?
	I asked my family for advice, and they're advice.
	You asked your mom and dad for advice?
	Yeah, I did.
	Okay.
	And they told me that I was better off, that my family would be better off if I stayed on disability, that I would be better off also.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, sorry.
	So, so how, you know, we've talked for over an hour, which I appreciate, and it's this great update, and I'm glad to get to know you.
	And let's make sure that we spend the next little while working on how I can best help you.
	So, what was there a particular impetus for the call today?
	I really, really just asking you for advice.
	What would you do in my situation?
	Well, I don't know.
	How long have you listened to what I do?
	I know what you would do, but you.
	No, no, hang on.
	I asked a question, right?
	How long have you listened to what I do?
	Long time.
	How long have you listened to what I do?
	I would say it's been about 13, 14 years.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So what is it that was the impetus for this call in particular, if it's been 13 or 14 years?
	That I have sort of panicked in my situation in life.
	Right.
	So let's get to that.
	Because you said in your message, right?
	Let me just pull it up here.
	I'm not trying to catch you out, right?
	Obviously, I just want to make sure I understand.
	But you said, I'm X years old.
	I've been married for three years and have a three-year-old son.
	I'm on disability and spent the first 32 years of my life as a loner.
	As a strong introvert, I've struggled to adjust to married life and have had a number of nervous breakdowns.
	I love my wife and son dearly, but continue to struggle with merely taking care of myself, including mental health, diet, hygiene, and overall purpose in life.
	That still applies, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so we need to talk about that, not some generic, what would you do if you were me?
	Because this needs to be more specific, right?
	Okay.
	So what do you mean?
	And I'm not sure what people mean by nervous breakdowns because it's not like a clinical term that I know of.
	So what do you mean by what is a mental breakdown for you?
	For me, I've had several of these where I I'm in such a bad mental state, I can't motivate myself to do to, I mean, I could get out of bed a few times, but I can barely function.
	It feels similar to if you've not eaten for a long time, if you're in starvation mode and you can't move your body, I mean, it's sort of the mental version of that.
	I don't follow.
	What's the feeling?
	It's absolute despair.
	Okay, absolute despair.
	Okay.
	So what are the thoughts around that despair?
	It's a feeling, it's a thought, thoughts and feelings that this is sort of the end of the line for it feels like the end of the line for my life or for my, I don't know, that's the best way to explain it.
	It's it's I can't really describe it.
	It's like the worst feeling you can feel.
	Okay, so help me understand end of the line.
	What does that mean?
	That feels like my whole life is about to unravel or that it's already unraveled and suicidal thoughts come in or suicidal ideation and feeling better off dead.
	Okay, and so better off dead, and obviously I need to do this every time this comes up, but obviously, well, I've been ask you for a commitment that you'll call a helpline or get in touch with a psychologist or a specialist or go to ER if you're feeling suicidal.
	I just need that promise from you, if that's all right.
	Yes.
	Okay, you will use you promise that?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	I do go to therapy regularly.
	Okay, good, good.
	All right.
	So life is about to unravel.
	And what does unraveling mean to you?
	I would say anything that I care about will be gone or it's a combination of anything I care about will be gone or is or is going away in the process of going away.
	And that I am just a completely worthless person, a completely hated person.
	Sorry, but hated by who?
	I mean, you live a pretty solitary life outside of your wife and parents, I think.
	So what is who hates you?
	Is it your wife and parents?
	Yes, or my wife and her parents or anybody, my parents.
	Okay, so like everybody.
	It's not some generic, like the crowd or abstract.
	It's like the people in your life, you perceive they hate you, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you feel like everything that you care about is going to slip away, that people don't respect you or they might hate you or something like that.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	I mean, like even during the trucking, the truck driving school, I felt if I didn't finish that, that I would just have no respect ever from a wife or in-laws or even my family.
	Well, but that's not, I mean, it would have made more sense to quit early because you just wasted a lot of time and money on something that you pursued for seven months that you can't do, right?
	Right.
	I mean, quitting, when you can't do something, quitting makes sense, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	I think it probably has something to do with me quitting high school.
	I didn't want to feel like a failure again.
	Oh, sorry.
	I wasn't aware that you'd quit high school unless you mentioned it and I missed it.
	Sorry about that.
	Okay.
	So you quit high school.
	But also, I mean, your father was arrested.
	There was your parents are splitting up.
	It was a, I mean, catastrophic time, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you've listened to me for close on a decade and a half.
	So what do you think my analysis would be of your feelings?
	Let's activate inner steph, right?
	So what, or philosophy guy, right?
	So what do you think my analysis would be of why you feel that love might leave you?
	Because I don't have a good example of that, that I never had a good example of that in my life.
	Nope.
	I didn't have a good example of that, and lots of people didn't.
	They don't necessarily go through these feelings.
	So, I mean, that's not unrelated, but why do you think it's happening in the present?
	Right?
	So, why do you think you feel that love and respect might leave your life?
	What do you think my analysis would be?
	Because if it was because of your past, then it can't be changed, right?
	Because we can't change the past.
	Like, if you were born in Africa and I said, I can fix that, I can change that.
	I mean, that would be crazy, right?
	Because I can't change where you were born.
	So, the past is irrevocable, irrevocable.
	And so, if we're going to look for change, it has to be something in the present, right?
	So, what in the present is causing you to be anxious that love might leave you?
	I'm not sure.
	I'm really not sure.
	Do you know what my definition, or do you remember?
	Sorry, I know this sounds like a quiz or a test.
	It's not that.
	I'm just curious.
	What's my definition of love, which I think is the definition of love?
	I believe it's like I was saying, self-sacrifice.
	Nope.
	I mean, terrorists blow themselves up all the time.
	That's self-sacrifice.
	What is it?
	Caring about another more than you do yourself?
	Nope.
	That can also be codependence, right?
	Yeah.
	That's true.
	Yeah.
	I don't remember.
	Okay, that's fine.
	There's no, I mean, it's not like this is not a test you had to prepare for.
	So love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous.
	So tell me, and I'm not saying this because I don't think you have them.
	I just want to make sure we're on the same page.
	Tell me your virtues.
	What are you doing in life that is virtuous?
	Trying to take care of people, trying to ensure the well-being of others, trying to make others' lives better.
	Well, but you're not succeeding hugely in that if you can't get out of bed sometimes, right?
	So not the intention, but what are the things that you manifest in the world that you would, you don't, it doesn't have to be what I would consider virtuous, but what do you consider virtuous that you're doing?
	I would that's really the best way I could say it.
	I'm trying to create a sense of stability for my loved ones.
	Yeah, but that's not working out as well as you want, right?
	Right.
	So at any given month, how many days are you somewhat disabled mentally?
	I would say two or three days.
	Two or three days.
	Okay.
	And what about the rest of the time?
	The rest of the time, I work as hard as I can.
	I take care of, of course, my son, and I do all the inside and outside work on the house, housework, and pay all the bills and everything.
	Oh, okay.
	I do everything I can.
	All right.
	So you do work hard.
	Yes, I do whatever I can.
	I'm not sure whatever I can means, but it sounds like you're saying you work around the house.
	You take care of your son.
	You do the inside and outside stuff.
	You pay the bills.
	So you're running the household, right?
	Yes.
	You're parenting and running the household, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So that's good.
	That's good.
	And obviously I'm not complaining about that or saying that's not good.
	But do you believe that that falls into the category?
	And it's funny because, you know, when I ask this question, it sounds like I don't believe you're virtuous.
	And I don't believe that.
	I fully accept that there are things that you're doing that you would define as virtuous.
	I just need to know what they are.
	So virtue is like moral courage and honesty and integrity to rational values and things like that.
	And, you know, working to take care of the house, that's good, but that's practical, right?
	So anything you can pay people to do, you know, I can pay people to clean my house.
	So if I clean my house, that's not specifically virtuous.
	I can't pay someone to be someone my wife loves.
	I can't pay someone to act with integrity and honesty and moral courage for me, right?
	So the stuff, if you can pay someone to, it's just a general rule of thumb.
	If you can pay someone to do it, it's usually not in the category of virtue, if that makes sense.
	Yes, yes, that's true.
	Let me ask you another way.
	What are the virtues that your wife loves in you or admires in you?
	I would say that I have a moral code, that I am very decisive, that I don't, I know who I am, that I'm not abusive, that I give her attention, and that there's some kind of stability with me, I guess.
	Okay.
	So let's, I mean, not being abusive is not exactly the same as being virtuous, which is, you know, I mean, it's sort of a bare minimum thing.
	So you said you have a moral code, and I'm not disagreeing with you, of course, but help me understand what is that moral code?
	I am, uh, I consider myself to be a Catholic.
	Um, I, um, very sorry.
	You, I'm so sorry.
	I did.
	You consider yourself to be Catholic.
	Oh, but this came about after you moved in with your girlfriend, right?
	Yes.
	In some sense, I already had a lot of these values, but this sort of codified it for me.
	And so I would guess she respects the very clear-cut moral code that I have in pretty much most areas.
	Okay, so help me.
	Sorry, help me understand how that moral code manifests in your life.
	And again, I'm not saying you don't have it or are not doing it, but this is just a new part of the conversation.
	I sort of need to map this area.
	Because the good thing about integrity and virtue is it gives us confidence in being loved.
	And so my concern, to be honest, I'm not trying to play any games here.
	If you feel like all the good things and all the moral things and all the love in your life is going to slip away, I would assume it's because you have doubts about how virtuous you are.
	Because if you are certain about your virtues and your strength and your courage and your integrity and your honesty and all these kinds of things, if you're certain about these things, then you can be certain that you're worthy of love.
	Because love is our response to virtue.
	And if we are certain that we are virtuous, then we are certain that we are worthy of love.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	But I would say that a lot of my uncertainty comes from back when I was learning, when I was watching all those videos about the nature of women.
	And my understanding, and it seems, I mean, this seems to empirically be the case, that most women, at least at the present moment, seem to be, I mean, it seems to be like a Marxist dream where most women seem to be completely motivated by resources entirely.
	Well, women are motivated by resources.
	Of course they are.
	That's why we're all here.
	If women weren't motivated by resources, we'd all starve to death.
	So, of course, women are motivated by resources.
	But what's wrong with that?
	Well, I mean, entirely, like, say, like the Marxist argument that all human actions are motivated by the desire for resources.
	So, wait, hang on.
	So, you're saying that women are motivated by resources.
	Therefore, what?
	All women are gold-digging predators?
	Is that the idea?
	No, but it seemed to me unlikely that there would be somebody who wasn't.
	It seemed unlikely to me that I would run into somebody who wasn't.
	Yes, but sorry, now I'm confused because you're married to Sue, you've been married for three years.
	She's the mother of your son.
	So, why are we talking about women in the abstract or in general or on red pill videos?
	Because I think that's where a lot of my uncertainty found the woman.
	You said she's special.
	She's sweet.
	She's great, right?
	And do you think she's with you for your disability checks?
	Or, I mean, help me understand.
	Like, we're not talking about women in the abstract because you're married to Sue in the particular, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so let's not talk about women in the abstract because you're having these anxiety issues or depression issues or despair issues in the present, right?
	So, it's not women in the abstract because you already chose Sue in the particular, right?
	Yeah, so I guess you could say that I have trouble realizing that she is a particular person, an individual.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Sorry, that's very abstract.
Loyalty vs. Individuality 00:09:39
	I don't really know what that means.
	You have trouble realizing that she's an individual.
	I have trouble realizing she's the person that I have witnessed, that both she says she is and that I've witnessed.
	I still don't understand what that means.
	Sorry.
	Explain it to me like I'm your son.
	It seems to me from everything I've observed that it's hard to find.
	It's almost impossible to find a person like Sue.
	Okay, but you found her and you're married to her and you've known her for years and she's the mother of the child.
	So what is going on?
	Like, why, if you're saying, well, Sue is very unusual, well, yeah.
	Okay, let's say women are materialistic and Sue is spiritual or whatever it is, right?
	Okay, so, but, but why would the issues continue if you accept that she is these things and is different?
	It's, I think it's, it's, it's been difficult for me to accept that that is true.
	That it's not, let's say, that she doesn't change.
	That's the fear I think a lot of people have when they get in a relationship that the other person will change or reveal their true self, I guess.
	But that's a lot of that's a lot of that's based on your mother's bullshit, to be frank.
	A lot of that is based on your mom putting this fucking worm in your ear about how, oh, your father, he was great and that he just changed.
	That's just to cover up her own complicity in his criminality, isn't it?
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	So, this, you've got to watch out for people who give you this brainworm of, oh, they just change, right?
	But that's how they cover up, right?
	Right.
	That's how she's covering up if that's what she has.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	And to be fair, my wife had said, she said the same thing about me.
	She assumed that I would change or that I would reveal myself to be something totally different.
	And she had to remind me because I've discussed this with her about what seems to be the general nature of women and that she seems to be unique.
	And she reminded me, she said, well, men are drawn by youth and beauty, but she was telling me, she said, but you said you didn't.
	That's not what drew you to me.
	I said, that's right.
	I was drawn by her kindness, just her warmth as a human being.
	And so I have had to remind myself that she also sees that, thinks that about me.
	She has doubts about me, and that maybe we're both kind of unique, that it is possible for a person to be unique in this world.
	Okay.
	So describe to me, if you would, Sue's virtues.
	She has a loyalty to everybody that is in her family.
	That's absolutely not a virtue.
	I can't give you that even 1%.
	Loyalty to family is not a virtue.
	I mean, what if her family were criminals?
	Right.
	So, no.
	Loyalty to family, that's just tribalism.
	That's just imprinting.
	That's not a virtue, right?
	I mean, come on, Mr. Catholic.
	What did Jesus say about what religion was going to do to families?
	Terror parents from children?
	Yes.
	Yeah, that virtue sets family against family.
	I have come to set son against father.
	And so let me ask you this: are Sue's parents Catholics?
	No.
	Are they religious?
	They are Christians.
	Yes.
	Okay, are they real Christians or are they Sunday Christians?
	They are real Christians.
	They are.
	Okay, they're real Christians.
	All right.
	So if they're real Christians, why is her whole family real Christians?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So if her whole family are real Christians, why is her sister, a single mother with two children by an absent father, shacking up with some new guy who turns her against her own flesh and blood?
	How's that Christian?
	Maybe I'm missing something.
	Well, they were raised by a single mother.
	That doesn't answer anything.
	They're Christians.
	Is that Christian?
	No, it's not.
	Okay.
	So have they acknowledged that that was a grave sin?
	The sister has not acknowledged that.
	No.
	Okay.
	So she is an unrepentant sinner in this area in that she is living together without marriage to a guy who's mean to her sister when her sister is very nice and she sides with her boy toy rather than her flesh and blood.
	She sides with the bad guy against the good sister.
	And she was she married to the father of her children?
	Yes.
	She's married for, I think, about 10 years.
	Okay.
	And is he still in their life?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So she left the father of her children to be with a pretty bad guy, right?
	Right.
	Is that Christian?
	No, it's not.
	Okay.
	So is this a topic within the family that this is a woman who's perhaps heading towards hell who needs to repent and apologize?
	You know, I don't, oddly, her parents haven't said anything about it.
	I haven't put it that way.
	Sorry, I'm not putting it some way.
	Again, I'm not an expert, but I would think that's kind of Christian, isn't it?
	Yeah, it is.
	Okay.
	So are they Christians or is it mostly just noise?
	I think it's mostly noise on the part of.
	Let me ask you this.
	Are your parents religious?
	They are not.
	Okay.
	My mother never has been.
	My dad is what you would call a Sunday Christian.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So have they sat down with you and said, regarding our grandchildren, we're concerned that you have atheists, agnostics, and ex-criminals around our grandchildren.
	We kind of need to sort this out.
	They have not.
	Oddly enough, they have more of a problem about Catholicism than atheism.
	Ah, okay.
	That's very strange.
	And do they have more of a problem with Catholicism than your father's criminal history?
	It would seem so.
	Okay, so they don't, as far as I can see, they don't have much integrity about their beliefs.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And you are a staunch Catholic, right?
	I don't attend regularly.
	You listed it as one of your work, Yangon.
	You listed it as one of your virtues.
	It's part.
	It's a daily part of my life.
	I just, I'm not.
	I don't.
	I don't attend.
	Okay, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	But you believe, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Are your parents going to hell?
	According to Catholic doctrine.
	And I know they kind of extended the definition of that back in the Second Vatican Council, so in the 60s.
	So, I mean, as long as they're Christians, as long as they're believers, there's a possibility of heaven.
	Well, sure, but they have to be real believers, not just Sunday Christians.
	They actually have to live the faith.
	They can't just say, I'm a believer and get to heaven, right?
	There's no get out of jail free card that way, right?
	There's no cheating the system.
	Right.
	Right?
	Okay.
	So your parents are not believers?
	Your mother's not, and your father is mostly just pretending, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so let's do this one.
	Is your mother going to hell as a non-believer?
	I'd say it's a good possibility.
	Okay.
	Under what theory would she not be going to hell?
	She married two criminals, defended one criminal, and continues to live with him.
	And she has no faith in Jesus.
	So she's done some significant immoralities, if not downright evils.
	As far as I understand, she's not repented because she's still with the guy.
	She is dedicated to a life of sin and violence.
	At least I don't know if the violence is still going on.
	So under what theory, and listen, I'm happy to be educated on this because, again, I'm not an expert, but under what theory would she not be going to hell?
	i mean yeah she would definitely if she's unrepentant of if she's not sincerely repentant then she would go to hell okay so so i think that's sorry go ahead i think it's a common I think it's a common attitude today among people who claim to be Christians is they really sort of have a vague, a vague faith where they kind of see it as a self-help motivational speaker?
	No, i'm not talking about abstract.
	I don't want to get I know, mr Intellectual, I don't want to get drawn into abstract discussions because we've been talking for two hours, right?
	So we've got to get to some traction, we've got to get some wheels on the ground here, okay?
	So uh, if your mother has a heart attack and aneurysm or gets hit by a bus tomorrow, she's going to eternal hellfire right, right.
Why Withhold Truth? 00:15:26
	So why are you letting that happen?
	If you believe and you do believe it's one of your virtues, right?
	Yes, and I've tried to speak with all of my family members in some way.
	Particularly with my mom, it's difficult because everyone has a worldview, and sometimes it takes a lot of work to get through, to chisel through that worldview and say.
	No, but why would she change?
	She gets all the benefits of being a good mother because she can come over, or you can go see her, and your father can come over several times a week.
	So they're getting all the benefits of being good parents without actually having to.
	I mean, have you had the conversation that I've recommended for 20 years about here's what went wrong in my childhood, and here's where you guys were at fault, and I'm going to need some apologies and restitution?
	And like, have they admitted fault?
	Have they atoned?
	Have they made restitution?
	Have they gone to therapy, figured out their issues?
	Like, what's happened if you've had that conversation?
	What happened?
	And if not, which is fine.
	You don't have to have the conversation.
	But then I just know you haven't listened to my advice for 15 years or 14 years.
	I'm not sure why you'd start now.
	I have.
	My dad has sincerely apologized for things that he's done and he's admitted things that he's done.
	And I think that's why I'm closer to him now, why I'm more open to him coming over and visiting.
	And so when did that happen?
	Sorry, hang on.
	When did that happen?
	And tell me a little bit about that.
	Several years after my mom got with my stepdad, I started speaking to my dad again.
	And me and him had a lot of long talks about what had went on.
	And he slowly started to see not necessarily the damage he caused outside the family, but the damage that he caused inside the family.
	And sorry, how old were you?
	I was in my early 20s when me and him talked, started talking.
	And so he slowly, from that point, he started trying to be more in our lives.
	And I appreciated that.
	And he's very much in my son's life now.
	And I'm happy about that.
	Okay, so he admitted the evil that he did and the harm that he caused to you and your mother, but not within the community, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	And you said sincere apologies.
	Any restitution?
	No.
	Wait.
	I don't know the definition of that.
	Oh, sorry.
	Restitution is maybe pay for some therapy or something which is more than just sorry, let's move on.
	You know, like if I borrow your car and I ding your car and I say sorry, but hand you the car back, you'd say, hey, that sorry is nice, but could you also fix the car, right?
	Need to do something practical to repair what's been done rather than just say sorry.
	I think he's, I mean, he's tried to help me a lot as an now that I'm older.
	He's helped me in anything I've needed.
	He helped me with buying this house and he's given us money sometimes when we needed it and he he's tried to be a part of my son's life.
	Okay, so I appreciate that and I don't want to wave that away like that's nothing and that that's nice.
	But if you started talking to him in your early 20s, why was it still 10 years before you even thought of really having a relationship if things got resolved or solved?
	I think it took me a long time to it took me a long time to heal from things.
	Okay.
	I was just deter I was determined to I was determined to stay alone.
	I was pretty dead set on that.
	Okay.
	And did your mental health improve after having some resolution with your father?
	It did somewhat.
	I still dealt with my I still dealt quite a bit with my mother and stepfather for years after that.
	And I mean, a lot of it was my own fault in that I would I kept myself involved with them.
	I could have ignored it, but I kept helping them.
	What do you mean by helping them?
	I mean, there were times, I know this is terrible, but there were times where they had split up and I thought he was she well, he asked me for a place to stay and I let him stay with me, which I know is terrible, but he was the only person outside of my immediate family that I'd ever been close to, you know, in any way.
	I didn't have any friends.
	Sorry, close to, but he was a good person.
	Guy's a violent thug.
	Guy's a violent thug who almost killed your mother.
	What do you mean close to?
	I had never at the same time, I had sort of become sort of a friend because I never had any friends growing up.
	So in a way, you've been the only person.
	But that's your parents' fault.
	And if you hang around with violent thugs who almost killed your mother, that's going to keep good people out of your life.
	You don't get to join a criminal gang and a church choir on the same day, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	And so he's still in your life.
	You gave him food and shelter and sucker and all of that.
	And then they got back together and so on, right?
	Right.
	And you're still breaking bread with the guy and you see him and your mother once or twice a month.
	Yes.
	Is that part of the virtue that you're talking about?
	Or is it something different?
	It's something different, I would say.
	Have you had the conversation with your mother and your stepfather about how awful your childhood was and their not just role in it, but their creation of that, or at least your mother's for sure?
	Yes, I've tried to talk with my mom about it.
	She gets very defensive.
	It's not something that I haven't tried that very often because she just won't hear it.
	Okay.
	So she's continuing to choose her own benefit over what's healthy for you.
	So she has a direct role, in my view.
	She has a direct role in your mental health issues because she's still selfishly choosing what's best for her at your expense.
	She's denying you the truth and apologies and validation.
	She's denying you all of that because she just doesn't want to talk about stuff.
	Yeah.
	So is it fair to say that she's not exactly helping your mental health?
	Yeah, she wasn't.
	And I think she married me being married.
	Because she's still denying stuff.
	You still can't have these conversations.
	Yeah, that's true.
	She is.
	Okay, so I'm not sure.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Hang on, hang on.
	You've had a lot of talking, right?
	So if you choose to be around corrupt people who deny their abuses towards you, then you're choosing, in my view, you're choosing mental instability.
	You know, it's like a guy calling me up and saying, you know, my hand keeps hurting.
	Oh, why does your hand keep hurting?
	Well, I keep hitting with it a hammer.
	Well, if you choose to hit your hand with a hammer, it's going to hurt.
	If you choose to be around your mother who's still in denial and who's still with the guy who tried to kill her, that's going to fuck you up deep down, right?
	Right.
	I mean, help me understand where the mystery is here.
	And if you continue to hang around corrupt people, does that enhance or diminish other people's love and respect for you?
	It diminishes, definitely.
	Your father, the ex-meth dealer and thief, is more honest and apologetic than your mother.
	It seems like he's become a better person.
	I can't believe I'm saying this, but it seems like he's become a better and more honest person than your mother.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So why?
	And yeah, I'm happy to hear the case.
	I mean, but why is your mother in your life if she has never accepted that she did wrong or apologized?
	Because that's not, it's not Christian, right?
	If somebody's done you wrong, right, you know this as well as I do, right?
	If someone's done you wrong, what does the Bible says?
	It's talk to them privately.
	If they don't admit fault, talk to them with a few people.
	If they still don't admit fault, talk to them with the whole congregation.
	If they still don't admit fault, what do you do?
	You cut them out.
	Yeah, you cut them off, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you're a Christian.
	You're a Christian.
	This is what God says is the right thing to do.
	But you know better?
	I mean, that's some arrogance, bro.
	I mean, if I believed in an almighty infallible God and he gave me these instructions and I said, no, I know better.
	I don't need those.
	I'd be like, I don't know about that, bro.
	Be like getting a kitchen cabinet and putting it together, saying, oh, I don't need these instructions.
	I'll just make it up as I go along.
	Yeah, I could set something up to talk with her about it.
	I could try again to talk to her.
	No, no, this is not a try.
	Okay, let's do this, right?
	You pretend to be your mom.
	I'll pretend to be you, okay?
	Good.
	All right.
	Mom, we got to talk.
	I'm glad that we have some time, some privacy.
	We've got to talk about my childhood because it was a complete mess.
	I mean, it was really a horror show.
	And you were kind of front and center on that.
	And I've had this conversation with dad.
	Actually, gosh, about 10 years ago, you know, I've tried to have it with you.
	And I'm going to have this conversation again.
	And I really need to have this conversation.
	Like, this is not optional.
	This is not a maybe.
	I really need to have this conversation because, as you know, I'm still struggling with my mental health.
	So, yeah, we need to talk about what went on in my childhood.
	That was really bad.
	She would tell me.
	No, just be here.
	Well, you know, I always did my best for you.
	I was working.
	I was going to school.
	I was trying to take care of you, some, but your dad wasn't pitching in.
	Your dad was sleeping.
	Your dad wasn't being a good husband.
	So I did the best I could for you, and you know I love you.
	That's.
	So are you saying that I have no, are you saying that I wouldn't have any valid complaints about my childhood?
	Well, of course you do, but you know we all loved you.
	We know we all loved you.
	Okay, I don't want the sentimentality.
	I just want the facts, right?
	So what are the valid complaints that I would have about my childhood?
	I believe she would say, really, what a lot of women say, a lot of single mothers, she would say...
	Well, I know.
	She wasn't a single mother.
	I mean, it was a similar.
	Okay, but what would she say?
	What would she say if I said, because this is, she says, I love you, right?
	Which means she must have a theory of mind that includes you, right?
	I can't say if I'm shown a picture of some Japanese person and say, do you love them?
	It's like, I don't know.
	I mean, they're Japanese.
	I don't know if they're good or bad.
	I don't speak Japanese.
	I don't know what they think.
	So in order to love someone, you have to have a theory of mind that includes them, that you have to understand something about them, right?
	And she was around for your whole childhood.
	So this is a test, in a way, if she has any empathy or she has the capacity to fathom somebody else's thoughts.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	So, and it's also, you know, does she understand you at all, right?
	Because she can see, like, okay, let me ask you this, because I don't see the role player work, but what is your mother's theory as to why you've had these pretty crippling mental health issues?
	What is her belief as to why that happened?
	Is it all your dad or what?
	Yeah, I think she blames a lot of it on him.
	Okay.
	Now, she was with him for 18 years.
	Does she take any responsibility for staying with him?
	No, she kind of dodges the question when I ask her about that.
	Right.
	Okay, so she lies.
	Yeah.
	She lies, she dodges, she avoids, she gaslights, she blames, she won't take responsibility, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So why is she in your life?
	I think, I mean, not just, you know, the feelings I had for it when I was younger are still there, but she's still connected to other members of my family.
	Like my, she's, she, her and my dad still communicate.
	Her and my brother still, my brother goes over there a lot more than I do.
	So she's, she's very much connected to everybody else.
	Yeah, but that's only because you don't tell her the truth about your thoughts and feelings.
	Because if you do tell her the truth about your thoughts and feelings, mom, I'm still filled with so much despair, I feel suicidal.
	And I don't know that that, I mean, that has to have something to do with my childhood because it started in my childhood.
	Yeah.
	But you were still in control.
	So the only reason, as far as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way that you get to have a relationship with your mother is if you withhold what you think and feel.
	I mean, does she know about your continued, you know, can't get out of bed a couple of times a month?
	Yeah, she knows about that.
	And what's her theory about that?
	What does she think is the cause of that?
	She just, she just, she says, she always says, well, you were okay until you were about 16 and you've been this way ever since.
	She doesn't get into much detail about it.
	Well, she doesn't get into any detail about it.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, if you were to say to your mother, the best way for me to get better is for you to take responsibility for the bad things you did and continue to do.
	Like she's still shacking up and giving sex to the guy who tried to kill her, right?
	According to what you said.
	Or, you know, almost killed her with the broken ribs and stuff, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so she's still acting in a pretty immoral fashion.
	And if you were to say, part of my despair comes from the fact that I've got a mother who is making terrible moral decisions and has in the past and refuses to admit them, so I need for you to take responsibility for the bad things you've done and continue to do in order for me to get better.
	What would she say?
	Would she do that?
	Would she take moral responsibility if it healed a good portion of your mental distress?
	I don't think she would.
	I don't think she would either.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so she doesn't care about you, really.
	Yeah, she's always had this attitude that I'm just that I can just sort of make it on my own.
	No, she has an attitude that you are perma-crippled through no fault of hers, no responsibility of hers, nothing to do with her, that it's just, you know, genetics and your dad or whatever, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so you have a mother who thinks that you're crippled and it's permanent and it can't be fixed, right?
	Right.
	Do you think that has an effect on your perception of yourself?
	Yeah, it definitely does.
	I mean, my wife has told me that if only I could have been raised by her mother, she said that her mother would have never wouldn't have taught me that I was being held back by anything.
	That I, no matter what, I would have still been pushed to do things.
Price of Forgiveness 00:05:27
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you see the issue, right?
	Right.
	Your despair is that your mother, you think your mother might be right, if I understand this correctly.
	Because if your mother's wrong, then she's harming and crippling you, right?
	Right.
	If that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And the price of being in a relationship with your mother is accepting her view that you were just foundationally broken and can't be fixed.
	And it's nothing to do with her.
	Do I have that right?
	Yeah, that, yeah, that makes sense.
	Okay.
	So choosing to have your mother in your life, in my view, is choosing to have this doom and despair.
	Because if your mother's right, then you can't be fixed.
	And that just means you're going to have to live like this for the next 50 fucking years, right?
	Right.
	But that's not fun.
	And if you're, let's say, and I'm not saying that this would be the case, right?
	Let's make it someone else.
	So there's Bob, right?
	Let's just make it Bob, right?
	So let's say Bob is suicidal, and the only way that Bob can be saved is for Bob's mother to accept responsibility for the wrongs she did to Bob as a child and also as an adult, right?
	Now, if Bob's mother would rather not accept responsibility, even though this means Bob might kill himself, that's murderous.
	In the same way that if some kid is dying and like they're choking to death, right?
	They got a fishbone or something stuck in their throat and the parent knows the Heimlich maneuver but just sits there and watches it, is that murderous?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So if you're suicidal and one of the things that would help give you relief is your mother taking responsibility and your mother won't do it, to me, that's murderous.
	That she'd rather you die than her admit fault.
	And then she literally will say to you, lie through her teeth and say, but I love you.
	Well, love also means doing things that are uncomfortable that's beneficial to the other person, especially if it's honor, honorable, right, and just.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	And I think that goes back to what I was saying.
	I don't think, I sincerely don't think she ever wanted kids, but doesn't matter.
	Doesn't matter.
	She decided to have them.
	She decided to keep them.
	She's still in your life.
	And now she's around her grandchild.
	So it doesn't matter.
	That's another excuse.
	Yeah.
	Can your mother have both a good and an evil man in her life?
	What do you mean?
	Well, can someone have a good friend in his life and also an evil friend in his life?
	And they all hang out together.
	I think so, but somebody is going to be hiding themselves.
	Nope.
	No, they can't.
	It's not possible.
	It's not possible.
	Now, I'll tell you why, because you don't believe me.
	And, you know, maybe you're right, but I'll tell you why.
	So a good person, can you be a good person without being identifying?
	Sorry, can you be a good person without being able to identify evil?
	No.
	No.
	That would be like saying, I'm a good doctor, but I have no capacity to identify illness.
	So being a good person means being able to identify evil.
	Now, does evil camouflage itself?
	Yes, it can.
	Of course, yeah.
	And the biggest camouflage is sentimentality, which is why I was objecting to your mother saying, but I love you.
	Right?
	So to be a good person is to be able to identify evil and also know that evil camouflages.
	So if Bob has a good friend and an evil friend over for dinner, will the good friend get a sense that the evil person is not good?
	Yes, I'd say so.
	Right.
	Do good people want to hang out with evil people?
	No, not generally, no.
	Well, no, of course not.
	I mean, why would you?
	It's horrible.
	It's actually, I've been around some evil people.
	Of course, over the course of, it makes your skin crawl, like it's repulsive.
	It's hideous.
	It's like, you know, the nails on the blackboard thing, but to your soul.
	So you cannot have a good friend and an evil friend and all hang out together because the good friend will say, I do not want to spend any time with this other guy.
	I think he's a bad guy, and here's why.
	And there will be evidence, right?
	There's always evidence.
	If there was no evidence, then you'd have absolutely no idea that they were evil, right?
	There has to be evidence.
	So we can't read minds, right?
	And he'd say, well, this, this, and this, right?
	So if you can't have good people and evil people in your life, then having evil people in your life will keep the good people away, right?
	Right.
	So is your mother immoral?
	I would say evil I know is a strong term.
	She is still with the guy who you say almost killed her.
	Right.
	Is that corrupt and immoral?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Has she accepted any responsibility for the bad choices and the corrupt choices and the immoral choices, which we've all made, right?
	I'm not trying to single her out in some giant spotlight like the rest of the world is in darkness.
	We've all made immoral choices.
	But has she accepted any responsibility for her bad choices?
Morals And Power Dynamics 00:15:46
	No, she hasn't, not really.
	Hang on.
	No, she hasn't.
	Not really are two contradictory statements.
	If I say, do you have a dog in your house and you say, no, not really, that's a little hard to follow, right?
	Occasionally she'll express regret for something that she did, but I don't know if it's sorry that it affected others or just sorry that it affected her life.
	Okay, so she, but she hasn't taken responsibility for immoral choices she's made that have harmed others, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So what does your faith tell you?
	What does Catholicism tell you about people who sin and don't take any responsibility for their sin?
	Don't even acknowledge or admit that they've sinned.
	They can't be forgiven.
	Right.
	They will go to hell, yes.
	Okay.
	So your mother, I mean, your father has done some stuff to earn your forgiveness, whatever, right?
	I mean, I don't think it's ideal, but it's, you know, certainly better than nothing.
	But your mother has done nothing, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	So the question is, and this comes down to your wife, Sue, right?
	So does Sue, what does she think of your mother?
	She doesn't know how to relate to her.
	She thinks she's kind of a bit of a mystery.
	And she wants her to like her.
	She wants my mom to like her, but she doesn't, she just can't relate to her very well.
	Okay.
	What does she think of?
	I mean, she knows the history of the violence with her current live-in boyfriend, right?
	Are they married?
	My mom and stepfather?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	So your wife knows the history between your mother and your mother's husband, right?
	Right.
	Is there, I mean, when was the last time you heard of aggression, even just yelling in that relationship, in that marriage between your mother and her husband?
	Sometime in the last few months, I heard something.
	Okay, so the aggression is still going on, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Is it physical or verbal or something else?
	It's verbal.
	They're both in their late 50s now, so they're getting mellowed out, I think.
	Okay, so there's less physical.
	When was the last time you heard of anything physical?
	That's probably been about 10 years.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So there's still aggression and maybe some verbal aggression, if not verbal abuse, but it's not as physical to your knowledge anymore.
	Okay.
	And it's true.
	I mean, aggressive people do mellow out as they age to some degree.
	Okay.
	And has your stepfather ever apologized for the violence he exposed you to as you were in your teens?
	He Just in a very shallow way, he has.
	But then he'll turn right around and say, he's told me, he said, you know, he said, man, you needed somebody to toughen you up.
	All right.
	He said that several times.
	Right.
	Which is him defending his actions as if the only way to grow up is to witness abuse.
	Yes, yes, of course.
	Of course.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So he thinks he did a good thing.
	Yeah, I think so.
	Okay.
	So your wife knows all of this?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So why do you think your wife is comfortable being around your mother?
	I think she's kind of used.
	She's used to dealing with people like that.
	She dealt with a lot of those types of issues with both her sister and her mother.
	Sorry, I thought you said if you'd been raised by my mother, you'd have been encouraged to do everything and all these good things.
	Right.
	Her mother did raise them well, but her mother went through a number of relationships after my wife's dad was killed.
	So your wife's dad was killed.
	How?
	He was all they all I know, all they've told me is that he was shot.
	He was on the police force and was shot in the back of the head.
	Oh, my gosh.
	Okay.
	So her mother went through a series of relationships after that.
	And she's finally found someone who she's lived with a guy for several years and they're married now.
	Now he's a good guy.
	Okay.
	But excuse me.
	It's all right.
	I'll take it out.
	My wife is, I would say she's used to people like my mom.
	And all she's told me is she said she has terrible taste in men.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So there has been some pretty negative relationships in both you and your wife in the past, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Well, if you allow, this is my speech and my perspective, right?
	So in my experience, and I say this with all humility because it wasn't like I learned this day one or implemented it day one that I learned it.
	So I say this with all humility.
	But if you have corrupt, negative, evil, dysfunctional, destructive people around you, then you will lose love.
	Sure.
	You will lose love because love is fidelity.
	Sorry, virtue is fidelity to rational morals.
	And the most foundational one of those is honesty.
	And if you have relationships in your life where you can't be honest, then every time you have that relationship and you exercise that dishonesty, and the most pervasive dishonesty is the lying by omission, right?
	The things you don't talk about.
	So when you're around your mother and your wife is around your mother, she knows your history and she sees you being nice to your mother, right?
	Is it possible, and again, I'm open to the case, is it possible to look at someone who is conforming to a corrupt person when they don't have to?
	Is it possible to look upon that person with respect?
	Probably not.
	I think it's pretty tough.
	Now, if you get pulled over by a corrupt cop, that's a different matter, right?
	But this is a voluntary relationship.
	So when she sees you being dishonest with your mother, it is hard to respect, if that makes sense.
	Because women, and I think this is true for men as well, but it's in a different context usually, are women looking for strength in a man.
	Yes.
	When your wife sees you around your mother and you're kind of bowing and scraping before your mother and not being honest and conforming to what your mother wants.
	In other words, if you let your mother run your masculinity, because the masculine urge is to tell the truth and damn the consequences.
	Is it possible if your mother is running your integrity for your wife to continue to have maximum respect for you?
	No, it's not.
	Right.
	You have a son.
	I heard him at times over the conversation.
	If when your son grows up or gets older and finds out how bad your mother was and continues to be since she's still with a guy who's pretty aggressive and nobody's ever apologized or taken any responsibility.
	And you know what?
	Your son is going to tell you what your son will experience, my friend.
	So if you say to your son, don't eat the chocolate, right?
	And then you take a phone call or something, you're out of the room, you come back in, and he's got chocolate all over his face, and you say, oh, I told you not to eat the chocolate, and he says, I didn't eat any chocolate, what would you say?
	Say, yes, you did.
	It's on your face.
	Right.
	You'd say, listen, you have to take responsibility for what you did.
	I don't want you lying to me and saying that you didn't do something that you clearly did, right?
	And you wouldn't say it mean or aggressive, but you'd say, look, I don't want you denying what you did, right?
	Right.
	But do you let your mom do that?
	She's got chocolate all over her face, hell blood all over her face, it seems.
	You never call her out on anything.
	So then your son will grow up and he'll say, oh, so dad doesn't believe that on principle.
	He only says that to me because he was bigger than me, because he feels stronger than me, because he's got more power than me.
	But when he's around someone who has power over him, he shuts up.
	He's got no principles but power.
	He's not scared of me, so he tells me that I have to admit what I did, but he's scared of his mommy, so he doesn't do that with her.
	How is your son going to feel about you when he realizes that?
	He won't have respect for me.
	Having a principle that says people need to be held accountable for their actions isn't just for your three-year-old son.
	It is a principle, which means it's for everyone or no one.
	And yeah, principles are tough, man.
	I shouldn't have to tell a Christian that.
	Principles are tough.
	Yeah, they are.
	But you can't sit there and say, well, you know, my son, it's really important for him to own up to what he did and take responsibility for his actions.
	But my mom, my stepdad, my dad, even to some degree, ah, no, it's, you know, forget that.
	So then you don't actually have principles if you don't apply them consistently.
	Did you see what I mean?
	Yes.
	And I think that the despair, and you say, well, love might leave me, it's like, because you have values that you apply or don't apply based on power, not virtue.
	You have power over your son, so you can hold him accountable for what he does.
	You feel like you don't have power over your mother or her husband, so you don't hold them accountable for what they did.
	But there's no principles there.
	And without the principles, you can't have consistent love.
	And so when your wife, when Sue says, oh, I'm concerned that you might change, it's because she's seen you change.
	From a guy who has honesty, integrity to the guy who's around his mom and shuts up.
	From the guy who holds his son accountable and holds himself accountable and holds Sue accountable to the guy who doesn't hold other people accountable because he's scared.
	And listen, I don't, I have sympathy for the fear.
	I'm not saying that that's cowardice.
	No, not at all.
	I mean, it's rational to have fear of people who've done us great harm in the past.
	But my point is that I would assume that your fear that everything good is going to slip away is because you're still not quite there to run it on principle.
	And listen, brother, we all have this problem, right?
	I don't, last thing I want to do is be some like, ooh, shiny-headed guru who, like, oh, I've just, I do all of this perfectly.
	I sure as hell don't.
	But you've got to be conscious of it.
	You've got to be conscious of the gap.
	And you've got to say, well, I hold my son accountable if he does something wrong.
	I hold myself accountable if I do something wrong.
	I will talk to my wife if I see her do something wrong and say, I think you kind of need to do better and blah, blah, blah.
	But when it comes to my parents or other people, I don't say a goddamn thing.
	It's just important to be aware of that.
	Now, if you're only aware of that unconsciously, I think you'll have a sense that everything's going to slip away.
	It would be like if you were a sleep eater, you know, like if you were overweight and you're like, I don't know why I barely eat anything during the day, I keep getting weight.
	And then you set up a camera and you realize that you go and eat a cheesecake every night in your sleep and you're not even aware of it.
	Then you can't control your weight if you don't even know that you're sleep eating.
	And you can't control who loves you or whether you have consistent love if you're not aware of where your integrity mysteriously reverses, if that makes sense.
	Where your commitment to honesty and directness and holding yourself and others accountable for their actions just completely reverses unconsciously.
	That's a very dangerous place because if you impose values on your son, and this stuff I assume is tough in particular because you're a father and your son is three, I think.
	So you're beginning to teach him some morals, right?
	Some responsibility, some telling the truth, some holding yourself accountable.
	You know, three, two and a half, three, that's when you, you know, maybe a little earlier, maybe a little later, whatever, right?
	But you're starting to teach your son morals, right?
	Now, are you teaching your son morals and saying, well, if you ate the chocolate when I asked you not to, I'm going to hold you accountable, but only because I'm bigger and only because I have power over you.
	Right?
	And truth is a value for me when I have power over people, but truth is not a value for me when I'm frightened of people or I think they might have power over me or might be able to say things that are mean.
	That's not what you do.
	What do you say to your son about the truth and being responsible?
	I say that it applies to all people.
	Right.
	And when he gets older and he finds out about your mother and your father, is he going to believe you?
	No, he won't.
	I will not have people in my life that I have to lie to, especially in front of my wife and daughter, because I don't want them to see me lying.
	If I'm going to hold myself and those around me responsible for our actions, why on earth would I have people in my life that I cannot hold responsible for their actions and then have all of the people I say, well, you got to be responsible for your actions.
	You've got to tell the truth.
	You've got to be honest.
	You got to have courage.
	You got to, right?
	Because your son is going to grow up and he's going to get into his teenage years and he's going to face a lot of peer pressure, right?
	How are you going to protect him against peer pressure when you yourself are subject to peer pressure, like your parents, right?
	They don't want to talk about stuff.
	You're like, okay, I won't, right?
	And listen, I understand it's difficult.
	I do.
	I really do understand it's difficult.
	And I have less excuse for that than most people.
	So, again, I say this with all humility, but you want your children to choose what is right over what is easy, right?
	And so, you, my friend, have to choose what is right over what is easy, or give up the virtues.
	Let your kids run wild or let your son run wild and say, Well, I don't really believe in honesty or integrity or holding people accountable or morality or truth or I don't really believe in any of that stuff because, I mean, as you can see, I don't apply it to your grandmother.
	So, integrity is tough.
	It's tough.
	And the fact that you have chosen to get married and you've chosen to become a father means you cannot now choose falseness.
	You cannot now choose a lack of integrity because people have bound to you, your wife by choice, your son by biology.
	People have bound to you based upon your virtues, which means the more consistent your virtues, the more secure you will be in people loving you and the more respect you will have for yourself.
	Look, you can't respect yourself for bowing down towards your mother's avoidance, right?
Why Bow Down To Gaslighting? 00:03:37
	Sorry, are we still on?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I mean, you can't.
	Like, as a man, you can't be like, well, I have to dance around mommy's gaslighting and avoidance, right?
	Right.
	And every time your wife sees you gaslighting, like dancing around your mother's gaslighting and avoidance, she's going to lose a bit of respect for you.
	You're going to lose a bit of respect for yourself.
	And then you're going to get a sense of doom.
	Like, this is never going to end.
	I can never be myself.
	Be yourself.
	Tell the truth.
	Honestly.
	What's the most important commandment from God himself about the truth?
	Truth will set you free.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness.
	Are you bearing false witness with your mother?
	Yes.
	You are.
	And listen, it's a sin.
	I mean, it's a sin to lie.
	You've got some problems with your mother, which I really sympathize with, and I'm very sorry for the childhood that you had, like a thousand million big bro hug percent.
	I'm really sorry for the childhood that you have.
	But now that you're pushing 40, it's time to tell the truth.
	Because your responsibility is not to your mother.
	Your responsibility is to your wife and your son and your children to come.
	And you can only serve that responsibility by being honest and strong, courageous.
	We need courage for when we are frightened, right?
	So if you want to, my advice, and the advice is always the same, but it's difficult to apply in particular circumstances.
	So I really sympathize with that.
	But, you know, your stepdad is very big on toughening you up, okay?
	So a tough guy goes and has that honest conversation.
	You know, hey, hey, tough guy, why have you never taken responsibility for your violence against my mother and what you exposed me to, Mr. Tough Guy?
	Now, it could be that he's still violent, right?
	And that could be dangerous.
	So don't do it if you think it's dangerous physically, right?
	Right.
	He is what they're called.
	I'm sorry?
	He's been diagnosed with narcissistic personality.
	So he's the type that will never, never take responsibility.
	Okay.
	What do you think your mom is?
	Yeah.
	So seriously.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	She's not far off.
	Okay.
	So if they're never going to take responsibility, which means they're always going to lie, because they have responsibility, if they just won't accept it, it means it's their lie, right?
	And if you would not accept your kid with his face full of chocolate saying it wasn't me, I never did it.
	It didn't happen.
	You're crazy.
	Then why would you accept that from your mother or your stepfather?
	Yeah, I think it's like you said, it's about I perceive them as more powerful than me.
	So I don't hold them accountable.
	Right.
	And so then everything you do with your kid and even your wife becomes because you're not scared of them.
	In other words, people you are afraid of and kind of, quote, respect, they get away with murder.
	But the people you don't really respect, well, you hold them morally accountable, blah, blah, blah.
	Right.
	So you don't want to be that guy, right?
	That's no good, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	But that's most of what I wanted to get across.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	How's the conversation been for you as a whole?
	It's been very helpful.
	I did want to mention that you inspired me to have children.
	Largely, a lot of the videos you did about having children really had an effect on me.
	So I just wanted to tell you that.
Massively Respected Peaceful Parenting 00:01:32
	I really appreciate that.
	And I massively respect for what it's worth, massively respect the turnaround that you're doing from you and your wife are doing from where you came from to what you're committed to as parents.
	I mean, the peaceful parenting stuff, I'm sure, is in there.
	And I just, you know, it's incredible what you guys have done.
	And I just massive respect.
	This is more of a tweak than anything.
	But yeah, I just wanted to say again, I'm really sorry for everything that happened as a child.
	It's just completely monstrous.
	And I'm really sorry about all of that.
	And also that my immense admiration for what you've been able to do and how you've been able to move forward in your life is truly wonderful.
	And you're not obligated to tell the truth to anyone, but you need to be aware when you are withholding the truth and you are going along with other people's selfishness or narcissism.
	And all that you have to be is conscious.
	And then you have a choice.
	But right now, I'm not sure that you feel like you have a choice.
	Like you just got to see your mother.
	And, well, you can't say stuff because she'll get mad.
	And like, there's just not much choice there.
	And I'm a big one for improving choice.
	All right.
	Well, listen, I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
	And I really do appreciate your time commitment today.
	I know that's a big chunk of time when you've got a kid around.
	So I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
	And I hope you'll accept a big bro hug for everything that you've gone through.
	And you can have a way better life going forward if you follow these kinds of principles, I think.
	And thank you.
	Thank you for your time.
	It was a pleasure talking to you.
	All right.
	All the best, brother.
	Take care.
	Bye-bye.

Chapters

00:00:00 Listening To Connect
00:02:54 Searching For Connection
00:08:25 Reaching Decisions Together
00:21:14 Falling In Love Sacrificially
00:26:17 Caught Between Worlds
00:38:36 She Tried To Make It Work
00:42:49 Unfortunate Sexual Imprint
00:45:59 Fights Escalate Over Years
00:57:32 Navigating Disability
01:03:50 Virtuous Code Dilemma
01:19:36 Loyalty vs. Individuality
01:29:16 Why Withhold Truth?
01:44:42 Price of Forgiveness
01:50:10 Morals And Power Dynamics
02:05:56 Why Bow Down To Gaslighting?
02:09:34 Massively Respected Peaceful Parenting