Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - My Husband Works Too Much?!? CALL IN SHOW

Jan. 28, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:59:18

My Husband Works Too Much?!? CALL IN SHOW

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Saturdays and Tiredness 00:14:21
	Hello, can you hear me?
	Can hi.
	Hi, how are you doing?
	I'm good.
	It's so nice to talk to you.
	Nice to talk to you as well.
	Thank you for taking the time to set up the call.
	And we are doing a free call, which means it goes out to the public, which means if you could stay off names and places, I would appreciate that.
	And I'm all ears if you want to let me know how I can best help.
	Yeah, so I've I've been wanting to call you for a while, actually.
	I'm a mother of two boys and I've been married for nine years now.
	And I just would like a little support with peaceful parenting.
	I understand it in theory and it logically makes sense to me.
	And I agree with everything that you write about.
	It's just sometimes I have a hard time like putting it into practice, especially when I'm feeling a bit run down or overwhelmed.
	Yeah.
	And if it's any consolation, so do I.
	So I get where you're coming from.
	It's it's tricky, you know, like all things are challenging and worth doing.
	It definitely is tricky.
	So you have my sympathy.
	And again, I'm right there with you if that if that helps.
	Okay.
	Thanks.
	It makes me feel a little better.
	Okay.
	So what's how old are your kids?
	My boys are seven and almost six.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So tell me a little bit about your marriage and your history with your husband and what's going on with your kids.
	Yeah.
	So marriage, I met my husband through my work and he was coming to my classes.
	And I had this, we had a really good connection early on.
	Like we started off as friends and I just, we had such deep, meaningful conversations from the moment I met him.
	I'm still smiling thinking about actually.
	Yeah, he's just my best friend.
	He's been such a supportive person in my life and he introduced me to you and like I can fully say that meeting him really changed the trajectory of my life and like in a very good way.
	So we've been married for about nine years.
	We had our first son when about a year into our, I guess it was a year into our relationship.
	So we had known each other for a little while before, but we we moved things along pretty quickly.
	Like we knew right away after spending time talking together that we both wanted to get married and have kids and we had similar values.
	So we kind of just hopped right in and got to it.
	And it's been really, really good.
	Like we have really good communication between us.
	But he does work a lot, which means I'm at home with the kids, which is a blessing.
	I'm very grateful to be homeschooling them.
	But yeah, some days I'm like pretty lonely.
	You know, I do have friends who are moms as well and they're also homeschooling, but I do miss my husband a lot.
	So I think that kind of contributes to me being a little bit, since it sounds like such a womanly word to use, but overwhelmed.
	No, listen.
	I mean, that's a real thing.
	That's a real thing.
	And of course, I mean, I've been a stay-at-home dad for, I mean, my daughter's 17.
	So I get that.
	And, you know, overwhelmed is a real thing.
	So I get all of that.
	And tell me sort of about a sort of typical week for you.
	Yeah.
	So typical week, I get up.
	I do my yoga practice in the morning.
	And then I come home and my husband is getting ready for work.
	He is so generous and does breakfast for the kids so that I can go have a little bit of time to myself in the morning, which I really, really appreciate.
	It wasn't always this way, like, especially early days postpartum.
	It was pretty full-on, as I'm sure you know.
	So, um, I'm at home with the boys.
	We usually start our day off with uh, we do some sort of like play or lessons.
	Um, if we have like a homeschool meetup, we'll go and do that.
	Um, I cook all the meals, so usually there's some cooking going on in there.
	Um, we try to get out of the house, but we live in a rainy part of the country, so it's it's tough some days to get out, which also um those are the days that I find a little bit harder.
	And yeah, then my husband comes home from work, um, which some nights is pretty late, so it's like kind of right before the boys go to bed.
	But like the minute he gets in the door, he's super engaged with them, he's rough and tumble playing, like he's asking about their day.
	It's like he's so supportive when he's home, it's just that he's not home as much as I would like.
	Um, but it makes it so that I can be home with the boys.
	And after the boys go to bed, we have a very brief time together because I get up pretty early, he's tired from work.
	Um, it's kind of those early days of parenting, right?
	So, what sort of hours as a whole over the course of the week is he working?
	So, he usually leaves around, I'd say, anywhere between like 7:30 and 8:30 in the morning, and then he's usually home between like 6:30 and 7, depending on the day.
	Yeah, so some days he's home a little bit earlier, and he does work a lot of Saturdays too.
	So, um, it's it can be long, kind of lonely days, okay.
	And so, he's doing gosh, I mean, that's uh that's a lot.
	So, he's doing 12 hours a day of 60 hours a week plus Saturdays, sometimes not always.
	He does, he does take days off, and there's slower times to his job as well.
	So, it depends on the time of year, but right now he has a lot of work, and it's great.
	I mean, I'm super grateful that we can eat really beautiful food and we have the means to take the boys to do the things that they want to do.
	But at the same time, I think, huh, you know, that money exchange for time, I'd love to spend more time together as a family, right?
	Now, how long has this been going on for?
	Um, pretty, I mean, pretty well since I had my first son.
	Um, he went back to work really early on, he went back after two weeks, and um, so I was kind of on my own early on, but he was taking days off here and there as well.
	And, like, when like I was saying before, when he's home, he's like fully there with us, he's super present.
	Well, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but but you did also say like he's tired from work, which he would be, right?
	Yes, at night, that's fair, right?
	That's fair.
	Okay, and sorry, I'm not trying to catch you out, I just want to make sure I understand where I think they're coming from.
	Okay, all right.
	So, was he working this much before he had kids?
	There were periods where he was, um, but also I think for him that like desire to provide has been kind of um accelerated once he became a dad, if that makes sense.
	And he's he just he's in demand a lot too, so he just has like a lot of work because he's really good at his job.
	Well, that's not causal, though.
	I mean, just because you're in demand, you know, I mean, Cameron Diaz, the actress, took like 10 years off from acting.
	People would have loved to have cost her.
	So, the fact that you're in demand doesn't mean you have to do the work, right?
	That is also true.
	Okay, so he was working hard before you had the kids.
	Was there any plan when you had the kids for him to scale back his work to spend more time with the family?
	Or was it kind of agreed ahead of time that, I mean, I sort of hate to say something as volatile as you're going to be mostly a single mom, but that's a little bit what it's like, if I understand it.
	We've definitely had this conversation.
	And yeah, I mean, sometimes I do feel kind of like I'm on my own emotionally too.
	Like it's, I can chat with other moms about it, but it's at the end of the day, it's our relationship and it's, it's our children.
	So yeah, there's moments I do feel that way.
	And huh, bringing some stuff up here.
	Go on.
	Yeah.
	I would love for him to be home a little bit more.
	Well, I assume more than a little bit.
	I mean, parenting is co-parenting.
	Parenting is supposed to be, sorry to interrupt.
	Parenting is supposed to be co-parenting, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	And even just like taking the Saturday off is that's good for me.
	Like just having two days together where we can kind of, because even on the days off, we have stuff going on or we want to go do like a fitness class or we like to, we like to stay in shape and go out and do hikes with the boys and do things that are kind of active.
	So it's nice to have like a rest day in there as well as a family because the boys are so happy when he's home.
	And I'm happier when he's home too.
	Like I'm just a much better mom when he's around.
	Well, yeah, I mean, we designed to co-parent.
	So how your kids' relationship with you and with their father?
	Yeah.
	So I feel like we have, I feel like we have wonderful boys.
	They're, they're, I mean, yeah, they're such a blessing in so many ways.
	And although I'm tired from it, I just, I feel like I'm so much closer with my boys than I ever was with my own parents.
	And we talk about everything.
	Like I'm, I'm here for them if they need me.
	Of course, there's days when this is another piece that I was hoping to talk to you about where there's that there's conflict between them.
	But I try to take it as like a learning opportunity and we kind of work through it together.
	But we have fun together.
	Like it's when I'm not tired, like I feel like we have a really good time together.
	And same with my husband.
	He's when he's home, like they're, they're doing activities, they're working out together.
	He's having conversations with them.
	Like he's taking them out to do swimming or taking them on hikes.
	Like we do have good quality time.
	I just feel like we could use more of it.
	Okay.
	So that's one side of the equation.
	What's the other?
	Your son's relationship with their dad.
	Yes.
	So, oh, like in what way do you mean?
	Well, yeah, how is their relationship with their dad?
	I mean, they absolutely love when he comes home.
	They're like so happy to see him.
	Yeah, they're, they respect him.
	Like, I feel like they, I feel like they listen to him a little more than they listen to me.
	So that's another thing that we can maybe get into.
	But he's, he's pretty patient with them overall.
	Yeah.
	I mean, he's, he just, he like leads them.
	He, he teaches them about the world and he teaches them about resolving conflict between each other.
	And it seems like they, they're like best friends when he gets home.
	Okay.
	And do they agree with the family's priorities that it's better to have more money and more stuff and I guess you were saying better food.
	Do they agree that it's better to have more money than more time with their father?
	I don't think so.
	I think they would prefer time with their with their dad.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So why don't, so why don't why don't they get it?
	Like, why, I mean, if the kids, I mean, as you know, everything needs to sort of be around what's best for your kids, right?
	Because they're not there voluntarily and you chose to have them and all of that.
	So will your kids, when they get older, look back at their childhood and say, I'm glad I didn't get to see my dad very much because we had more money.
	Right.
	So I don't think they would say that.
	And this is actually, yeah, I don't see why.
	This is actually, I would love for my husband to be in this call right now, but he is watching the boys so I could talk to you.
	And it went in a different direction than I thought.
	So, yeah, I mean, I'm, of course, they'd want to spend more time with him.
	Okay.
	So why is that not something that's at least on the table or something?
	Like if that's if you said to your kids, well, I can come home more.
	I can maybe work just, you know, 7.5 hours a day rather than 12.
	And I cannot work Saturdays and we can spend a whole lot more time together, but we won't have as much money.
	What do they want?
	Do they want money or do they want their dad?
	No, of course they want their dad.
	And I should say, I know it's periods where he, and not to backtrack, but there's periods where he does work a little bit less or he'll take a day off during the week and he does is able to do that.
	There's days where he does eight hour days.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, I understand that.
	I'm just talking about the general trend, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Yeah.
	So, and that's, I think that's a conversation that we'll be having later.
	Okay, good.
	Yeah, because you should ask the kids, right?
	Now, what about you?
	Do you prefer having more money or would you prefer having more time with your husband and less money?
	Well, I love my husband and I love spending time with him.
	So I'd love to spend more time with him, even if that means that there's, you know, we have to make a cutback somewhere.
	I feel like when we got together, we were both quite in debt.
	And he has worked very hard to provide us with a comfortable life.
	And I really, really appreciate that.
Quality Family Time 00:16:09
	Like he worked, he has worked really hard.
	But at the same time, like I kind of, I grew up with very little and I don't expect a lot either.
	Like I feel like I'm a pretty low maintenance person.
	I love like just being together and doing things that don't even cost money necessarily, like just being in the forest as a family or yeah, stuff like that.
	Snowball fights and wherever you are, like just the fun, goofy stuff that you do as a family.
	Most the most memorable stuff is often free.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So we've got three out of four people in the family who would rather less money and more time with dad.
	So what does your husband think?
	Does he think I would rather make more money and spend less time with my wife and children?
	That's a big question.
	I don't think that's, I don't think that's his, I don't think that he necessarily wants that.
	I think that he does like knowing that we're getting just with the way the economy is going here and with the future of our kids, I think he likes knowing that he's hopefully going to be able to build something to leave something for them because we weren't, we didn't have much growing up and neither did he.
	So I think that's kind of where you guys are okay, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, it wasn't like your life was a disaster because you didn't grow up upper middle class, right?
	100%.
	Okay.
	So this is a little confusing to me, and I'm sure we'll get to the root of it.
	And maybe the root of it is something obvious I don't understand.
	But if nobody wants it, why is it happening?
	I think I need to talk to my husband more.
	The last thing we'd ever want to do is live in a trailer park.
	Nobody wants to live in a trailer park.
	Where do you live?
	In a trailer park.
	So move.
	So, yeah.
	No, but if nobody, if everybody wants less money and more quality time with dad, why is it happening?
	For eight plus years?
	Yeah, yeah.
	That's a really, really good question.
	During COVID, he wasn't allowed to work.
	And we, I think that was a bit of a fear time.
	I know there's been periods where you've had less income as well.
	And I think that was a big motivator for him to keep kind of pushing past and working more.
	But I think this is a great question for him because I'm feeling a bit lost now about the why.
	And it kind of makes me realize that we need to have a deeper conversation, like in our relationship.
	So my first instinct would be to ask about your husband's childhood.
	Was he close to his father?
	Definitely not.
	Was that because his father was a workaholic?
	His father was definitely away at work a lot.
	He was also very abusive.
	Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but that does mean that your husband may be lacking certain skills in connection and consistency.
	And he may just be reproducing the template of his own father, obviously not in terms of the abuse, but in terms of just being away.
	That's what he grew up with.
	That's what he's used to.
	And it's really hard to undo our first language, so to speak.
	I get it.
	Absolutely.
	My own dad was never home.
	Ah, okay.
	And why was your dad not home?
	I think he didn't like being at home.
	My mom was horrible and angry all the time.
	And just where do we even begin with that?
	Okay, and I'm sorry, I do want to get to that, but I just also wanted to mention because I was saying, but you guys were fine without the money, but you weren't fine because of the family stuff.
	But there are poor families that do well emotionally, and there are rich families who do badly in terms of getting along.
	So I just wanted to sort of mention that because earlier I'd said, oh, you guys were fine without all this money, but you weren't fine because your father-in-law was abusive and absent, and your own father seemed to abandon you to your terrible mother, which I'm very sorry about.
	It's definitely a different environment that we have in our home.
	Like our home is quite peaceful, but it's, I see some patterns that are that are trickling down through both my husband and myself from our own experience with our own fathers, I'm sure.
	Like what?
	Just with them being away and maybe just having it that be the normal, like the normal of dad is gone all day and mom is home.
	And although my mom didn't like being home, but I mean, I, I would rather be home with my kids than working.
	Like there's no, it's not even like a, it's not even a thing for me.
	But at the same time, yeah, it's, it can be really lonely.
	And I think having more just quality family time for sure would help me feel a little bit less, I don't know, overwhelmed.
	No, and I completely understand.
	I mean, I remember my wife used to go away for professional training sometimes for three days or whatever.
	And I was home with my daughter who's great, but you know, you kind of need some adult time.
	You know, you need, sorry, that sounds vaguely sexual, but you know what I mean?
	Like you need some time not, you know, especially when they're young with the goo-goo gaga stuff, which is fun, but, you know, maybe not for 12 hours, right?
	Straight.
	Because we're kind of designed to raise children in a community, right?
	That's how we evolved as a sort of social animal.
	And we're, you know, we're not cats, right?
	And, and, or, or rabbits.
	We're designed to raise, raise our kids in a social environment.
	And the sort of isolation that comes, particularly if you're not around family or people who come over a lot, it is, it can be profoundly isolating.
	And of course, it's, I have no question that you love your kids.
	I love my daughter, but it was, it was great when my mom, when my wife came home after she had to be away.
	And that's not kind of how our brains are supposed to work.
	It's just with one person and kids for like 12 hours a day.
	Yeah, agreed.
	And the part about having adult time, it's just, it's kind of like feeling more like yourself as well and just nourishing that part of our relationship.
	I actually asked him because we don't have family here.
	His family is in a different part of the country and mine is, well, my dad's passed and my mom, I don't speak with.
	But we were saying because of the that, we have a sitter who sometimes comes once a week and she'll watch the boys for me.
	She's a friend and she loves the boys.
	They love her.
	I trust her.
	But it would be so nice for us to have more date nights and just having time to like connect together that piece of our relationship because it's just, it's always about the kids.
	And of course it is.
	We chose to be parents.
	But there's also like, I feel like now that they're getting a bit older, there should be some space too for like us to connect as adults.
	And I always have the best conversations with him.
	Like when we chat after they go to bed, I just, it's one of the best parts of my day because I'm like, oh, I can just, my shoulders can relax.
	I can talk to another adult, which is great and not hear about Lego and farts and all the fun, cool things that are great during the day.
	But yeah, I would love more of that.
	Right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So can you guys sustain your lifestyle, obviously with some compromises, if he works less?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you're not like right on the edge in your 10,000 square foot home or whatever.
	Like, I got to make the mortgage.
	I got to get back to work or something.
	Okay.
	So you can sustain it.
	So that's what I'm sort of trying to puzzle out.
	So your mother, you don't speak to.
	I'm sorry to hear about that, but sounds like I would agree with the decision for whatever that's worth.
	And what's going on with your in-laws?
	So the in-laws are in another part of the country.
	Also, my husband doesn't really speak with them.
	They were really brutally abusive and in many ways, physically, emotionally.
	It was quite hard for him.
	He left a war-torn country as a young child and came here as a refugee.
	And his parents never spoke to him about any of it.
	They never had like meaningful conversations.
	So for him, he just, he feels it's better if we're not in contact with them, which I respect his decision with that as well, because from what I've heard, like I wouldn't want them supporting our kids anyway.
	And was that Eastern Europe or some other place in the world?
	Eastern Europe.
	Eastern Europe, yeah.
	Yeah.
	I have a mother from a war-torn country, and it's pretty brutal on people's personalities for sure.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So has your husband expressed a desire to work less and spend more time with his wife and children?
	Hmm.
	He's going to listen to this.
	Oh, I'm sorry, honey.
	Yes and no.
	He likes being home.
	He loves when he's home.
	I can see that he loves being around us and he's funny and he has a great time when he's here.
	But also like his, I think he feels also responsibility to, yeah, provide.
	I don't know if there's some fear around like not having money with him.
	I'm realizing that, yeah, we need to have more conversations about this because I don't want to speak for him.
	But he.
	No, no, I'm not asking you to speak for him.
	I just wanted to know, has he expressed to you, I think I'm missing out a good chunk of the children's childhoods.
	I wanted to be a dad and I'm doing it for only a couple hours a week and you're doing it for the rest of the time.
	I think we need to, or I'd like to try and rearrange things so I can spend more time in this fleeting childhood time that comes and goes in a flash, right?
	He hasn't said that specifically.
	No.
	Okay.
	And I understand the fears of being a provider, for sure.
	I mean, you know, the weight of the world and blah, blah, blah, right?
	But saying that the solution is to work more is saying there's only one concern or fear or downside to these choices, right?
	So if, of course, your husband works more, then it deals with financial stresses, right?
	I mean, he makes more money and there's more comfort, there's more savings, there's more cushion.
	I get all of that.
	But what's the downside, right?
	Because there's more than one fear in the world, right?
	Yeah.
	And it takes the toll on my emotional state and just our kids.
	Like I know the, I know the outcomes of children within single mother households.
	And I like we've he and I have talked about it.
	But there, like you mentioned before, there's been moments where I think, oh, I'm kind of by myself a lot.
	Like, what's what is this doing to the boys also?
	Because they need their dad.
	That's interesting.
	I don't mean this in any negative way, but I just sort of noticed and I said, what's the downside?
	And you talked about you and you talked about your boys.
	Who did you not talk about?
	I did not talk about my husband.
	Interesting.
	Very, very interesting.
	Okay.
	And that's, you know, he's taken himself out as a variable in some way.
	So let's talk about, I'm not asking you to talk for him, but let's talk about your husband.
	So what are the downsides of working this hard?
	Well, he misses out on connection with us.
	He it's hard on his body, especially as he's getting into his 40s.
	We don't have quality family time together as much as we could.
	He's by himself more as well.
	Oh, you mean because he works alone?
	Yes, he works alone.
	Although he's probably listening to your podcast while he's working.
	Well, that's quality company, but it's not quite the same as being with someone.
	Right.
	Right.
	Those are the first ones that I can think of.
	Okay.
	So for sure, missing out on the kids and regret, right?
	Looking back and saying, see, he's only seeing, you said sometimes he gets back from work when the kids are just about ready to go to bed, right?
	So you get to see every frame of the movie.
	Sometimes he only gets to see one out of 10 or 15 or 20 frames of the movie, which means it goes by super fast.
	His kids are fast forwarding through childhood relative to his exposure, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that makes me feel so sad for him.
	Well, and that's what I'm sort of trying to puzzle out here.
	And I say this because he's been a listener to what I do for a long time, and he hasn't asked his kids what they want or hasn't done much to, you guys haven't had many conversations about him working less.
	So let's fast forward.
	You said six, six, and eight.
	Do I have that right?
	Six and seven.
	Six and seven.
	Okay.
	So I just heard all the teenagers.
	Six, seven.
	Anyway.
	So I know, I know.
	Six and seven.
	Okay.
	So you've got, for the eldest, you've got four years till puberty, right?
	Maybe five.
	Okay.
	So what happens to boys as they get older if they're not close to their father?
	Now, this is why I was asking about the earlier relationship.
	I'm, of course, not saying they don't respect him or care about him or are overjoyed when he's home, but you just can't be close to people if you're only chatting with them a couple of hours a week.
	So what happens to boys when they hit puberty and their father is working 60 or 70 hours a week?
	Well, I would think they would be looking for a male figure to bond with.
	I mean, they're interested in girls now, and they probably need.
	Sorry, when you say now, you mean like in the future?
	Oh, no, no, yes.
	So now I'm just checking.
	I mean, kids going across these days.
	I don't know if they're like driving and hanging around the mall parking lots looking for the sophomores or something.
	But okay.
	So yeah, they're interested in girls and what else?
	Yeah, interested in girls.
	I mean, probably wanting to get out on their own a little more.
	Wanting to, I'm sure they want to feel more like they're growing up and doing things more independently.
	But also, I don't know.
	I haven't even thought that far ahead.
Peers Over Parents 00:06:46
	Well, when you were a teenager, how important were your peers?
	Right.
	So bonding with the peers rather than the parent.
	That's all I had.
	That's, yeah, I didn't want to be home.
	Right.
	So your peers became very important, right?
	Right.
	Now, peers elevate themselves in the minds of teenagers naturally because parents are the past and peers are the future, right?
	Because you've got to find your potential mate and reproduce.
	Like just sort of evolutionarily speaking, the peers become very important.
	And that's natural.
	And that's, of course, healthy, right?
	But at the same time, you can have bad peers, right?
	And how do you counter the effects of bad peers?
	Strong relationship with the parents.
	Right.
	Families, family values.
	Right.
	Now, Do your sons, or do you imagine your sons, when they get older, will they want to emulate their father and live as he does?
	I don't think so.
	I think they'd want, I think they'd want to be with their children.
	And I mean, this is such a good question.
	I haven't thought that far ahead.
	But I think that they would want to be with their family, who they love.
	Yeah, I think they'd want to, like if somebody were to say to your kids, okay, so when you get older, you're going to be a 60 to 70 hour a week physical workhorse for your family, and you won't get to see your kids very much, and you won't really get to spend much time with your wife, but you'll be, you sure will be at work a lot.
	Would that be a life that they would want?
	Sounds great.
	Yeah, they'll be like, thanks, bud.
	I don't think I committed a crime in a past life to be put into this kind of gulag, so to speak, of like labor and productivity.
	So the challenge is, of course, if your sons grow up and don't want a life like their father's and they can't get guidance from you because you're their mother, not their father, then where do they get their guidance from about how to be men, how to be, how to mature, how to grow up, how to date, who to marry?
	Like, how are they going to get their guidance if they don't want to be like their dad?
	Well, okay.
	So I would say they would be going to their peers, but I would also say that they I think they would see how their dad was when he is home and how he and I, like how we're together.
	And I would hope that it would help them in like choosing a good partner and choosing someone who having like a loving home.
	No, no, and I'm not trying to say, look, I'm not trying to say he's a bad father when he's there, for sure.
	I mean, I get all of that, which is why I was focusing on the work aspect of things.
	Okay.
	Right.
	So boys, when they grow up, and this is true for girls as well, of course, right?
	But boys, when they grow up, their father is their template for reproductive success.
	Right?
	That's just natural, right?
	Because we grew up in these small tribal communities where there really wasn't much variation in what men and boys could be or do.
	And so your boys will be programmed to be like their father, just evolutionarily speaking, biologically.
	I mean, you were there for the crazy growth language thing where they're learning like 20, 30 words a day.
	You don't even know where it's coming from.
	It's just this amazing process that happens.
	And in the same way, they're absorbing what their father does, right?
	And then when they become, they get into their teens, then you don't want them to be at war with themselves and saying, well, you know, my dad's a great guy for sure.
	And I want to be successful.
	And my instincts are telling me to be like my father, but I just don't want to work that much.
	So then there are, as we used to say, little sixes and sevens, they're like, who am I going to be?
	How am I going to be?
	And that's when, of course, the older, confident boys will take them under their wing and say, well, you know, you got to date a lot.
	You got to sleep around and, you know, loosen up with some alcohol.
	I mean, obviously that's a worst case scenario, or I guess there are worse, but that's the challenge.
	And so when I said there's more than one fears, I'm not trying to make anyone paranoid.
	What I'm trying to get you to do is to balance the fears, right?
	Which is to say, okay, so we've solved the financial concerns with my husband working 60, 70 hours a week, but there are other concerns that open up because of that, right?
	Life is a balance of concerns.
	And it sounds like maybe because you grew up poor, but it sounds like you've put all of your eggs into the one basket of we're going to solve the financial concerns no matter what.
	And life, of course, as you know, it's much more complicated than that, that men who work a lot to provide for their families, I mean, there's a number of negatives that occur, which is, as we'd mentioned, their sons or their daughters, right?
	Their sons in this case don't want to be like them in that way.
	And the other thing, of course, is that they are seeing much less interactions between their father and their mother, right?
	Because you guys are like they're in bed by the time.
	Like, it's great that you guys are chatting at nights.
	That's wonderful, but your kids don't see that.
	Yeah.
	So they're going to be short on absorbed relationship skills.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, it's true.
	Like most of our, I mean, we chat when, especially on the weekend, like when he's home, we chat a lot and we chat with the boys, but you're absolutely right.
	Like once they're in bed, when we have the mental energy at the end of the day to have conversations, like they're not witnessing it.
	But I do feel like what they, at least what they're witnessing is like loving and respectful.
	But I mean, again, it's like a fraction of the time.
	But if you want to learn a new language and you say, I get quality instruction for three hours a week, that's a whole lot different than getting quality instruction for 30 hours a week, right?
	You just learn less, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So another aspect of this working and working and working goes something like this.
Working Overtimes 00:02:47
	So we all know this from when we were kids.
	We take everything personally, right?
	If you want to go to the park, but it's raining, you take it personally, right?
	I mean, everybody does with their, because we, you know, we grow out of this natural narcissism of infancy and so on, and you have to kind of be slowly coaxed into taking more complicated, nuanced things into consideration.
	And what do you think your children perceive about themselves from their father's absence?
	Okay.
	That's a great question because I would, I would think that it would be something like, well, he doesn't want to spend time with us because he's not home much because they're still young.
	And that's how I know that's how I felt when my dad wasn't around much.
	Well, but your dad at least had the excuse of you guys were poor, right?
	Yes.
	And yes.
	Like, I mean, I'm sure you've had this.
	If you grew up poor, you know, one of the things that my mom would say to me when I wanted something when I was a kid, she'd be able to legitimately say, what?
	Sorry.
	Oh, that was a question.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, so if I wanted something as a kid and, you know, we were very poor, my mom could say, what?
	Yeah, we, we can't afford it.
	We can't afford it, right?
	Now, if you have some money rolling around and your kid says, I want this.
	Yes, we can, we can afford it.
	Right.
	So you don't need to.
	We don't need to buy it.
	Right.
	And so it's just a bit more of a challenge.
	And I mean, it's a good challenge to have.
	So that's not a that's not a bad thing.
	It's a good challenge to have.
	But the problem is, if the kids perceive, and they're old enough to know this by now, if the kids perceive that there's more than enough money, it becomes more difficult to explain to themselves why dad is gone.
	Yeah, I see that.
	Like if there was some horrible war, and God forbid, right?
	Like your husband is drafted and he's got to go to war, then you can explain that to your kids, right?
	Yes.
	If you're very poor and there's barely enough food and your dad has to work for whatever reason, some Weimar situation where the money's becoming worthless and he's got to go to work a lot, then you can at least say, like, this, like, I'm sorry, but I have to work because society is like really bad off or something's going really wrong in the world, the economy.
	But if you guys are living comfortably or more than comfortably and dad's working a lot, they're more likely to take it personally, if that makes sense.
	It does make sense.
	It does make sense.
Recent Debt Struggles 00:04:10
	And, you know, I'd say the comfort has only been very recent for us.
	And it's still, it's like, yeah, it's very new and very recent.
	So it hasn't been a long time like this, but I do feel grateful and like I'm thankful we can go to the dentist and do things like that.
	So is that because of the debt or some other reason?
	Like, why is it he's working that hard and you guys were broke, that's a bit confusing.
	So it was, it was a lot of debt and also just, yeah, paying all of that off.
	And then his jobs have been now, he's been getting more for what he's doing.
	So we're able to do like savings now, whereas we didn't have any savings before.
	Sorry, how long ago did this change?
	I think about maybe about two, two years ago, because or a year ago, the whole thing was when everything shut down, like he wasn't working for like a long time.
	He was, we were kind of freaking out about did you not get because there was a lot of government support for people in that, I mean, in some places, don't have to tell me where you are, but was there anything?
	We didn't know.
	No, there wasn't.
	And he wasn't allowed to work anywhere either.
	They wouldn't let him.
	And do the kids know about that as a whole, or is that not something they know about?
	Yeah, we've talked about it.
	Okay.
	We've talked about it with them.
	And where did the debt come from?
	Oh, not paying taxes for a while.
	And just, I mean, this, when I got together with him, it was mine was like just spending from living on my own.
	And we live in a pretty, it's like very expensive city.
	So just living on my own, I came with debt from that.
	And for him, it was.
	I'm not sure what living, I mean, I lived on my own too.
	Yeah, no, it was more like I was like relying on credit cards and that sort of thing.
	But for what?
	For like basic rent or like, no, just I had terrible, I had terrible control with understanding like the value of money.
	And you overspent the responsibility of, yes, I overspent.
	Okay, I'm not trying to nag or I'm just trying to understand where we all have our vices.
	We all have our slight weaknesses.
	So you spent too much and you ended up in credit card debt.
	Yes, I spent too much.
	He was working with like tax debt and things like that.
	He's self-employed.
	Oh, so he hadn't paid or had underpaid.
	So he had back payments and penalties and things like that, right?
	Yes, sir.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, it was a certain lack of wisdom, perhaps, that ended up with this debt.
	Yes, and we've learned a lot from it.
	But also, yeah, I mean, I wish I had it was my responsibility.
	I was an adult at the time, but I still would have liked more guidance with that growing up.
	Oh, yeah.
	I sympathize with you that kids who grew up with financially illiterate families or families that don't pass along financial literacy.
	I mean, you can solve it, but it's not easy.
	And it certainly doesn't feel organic.
	And it is like you and I learning Japanese as adults as opposed to growing up with it.
	It can be done, but it sure isn't easy.
	Yep, definitely.
	And was it like six figures or more?
	Or you don't have to get into too much detail.
	I'm just wondering what sort of scope it was.
	No, it was five figures.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	And that was when you met nine years ago.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And so it took you seven years to dig out a five-figure debt?
	No, really?
	I don't know how long it took exactly.
	No, no.
Explaining First Time Hearing 00:02:40
	You said it was about two years ago that you turned the corner.
	Oh, oh, sorry.
	So, yeah.
	So we had, we came out of debt before that, but then we also had a beginning where he wasn't working.
	Yes.
	So that again kind of took away quite a bit.
	Right.
	And we had to work up because he wasn't working.
	And then work was slow for him for a while as well.
	So there were like, there were periods where he was only working like once or twice a week.
	So I think.
	Okay.
	So he was home a lot during that time period, but it was trusting.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And I do want you to know like he has been home and he was home when the boys were really little.
	Like he was, he was around, but this whole working more thing has been a little bit more recent.
	So it's been more like the last.
	I thought you went back to work like two weeks after they were.
	He did.
	He worked.
	He did, but it was like shorter days and he would take a day off here and there.
	But the longer, the longer like six day a week thing has been more maybe the last like year or two, maybe-ish.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So what do you say when the kids say we miss dad or where's dad or we want to spend time with dad?
	I tell them that daddy is working so we can I can be home with the boys and we can eat this nice organic food and do fun things on the weekend and get the things that they like to get and do the things that they enjoy to do.
	Interesting.
	That's interesting.
	And I obviously just hearing this for the first time.
	So I'm sure I'm going to get this wrong.
	But isn't it almost like saying, well, you want to do nice things, so daddy has to work?
	I just realized how that sounded when it came out of my mouth.
	And listen, I'm not saying that's what it is, right?
	Because I mean, you're just explaining this like for the first time.
	So I don't want to jump on your words like a shark on a seal or something like that.
	But it is, well, if you want to have this kind of fun, daddy's got to go to work or something like that.
	Right.
	Which also isn't right because then I'm placing it on them rather than like making it, oh, it's like, if you want this, then that's why daddy's gone.
	Good times a hostage kid.
	If we want to get a new bike, daddy's got to get back to the salt mines or something like that.
	Right.
	So yeah, I'm just I'm just wondering because because it needs to be explained, right?
	If dad's gone most of the week, then it sort of needs to be explained.
	And that's what I'm trying to sort of figure out how is it explained?
Perspectives Unveiled 00:03:23
	Well, now I'm just realizing I'm seeing things through the eyes of my kids as we're talking.
	Yeah, I mean, that's how I've explained it.
	And just hearing it from that perspective and thinking about how they receive it, like, that doesn't feel very good.
	And I sympathize with that for sure.
	And so how do you think they receive it?
	Well, I haven't asked them.
	So.
	Yes, but your emotions are coming from somewhere, which I respect, right?
	So what do you think?
	How do you think they receive it?
	I think they, I think they feel sad, like with just with not having him there.
	But yeah, I'm not sure.
	Well, I think that the emotion that you might be getting, and obviously we're just meeting for the first time, so forgive me if I go astray, which I probably will, but I think that the feeling is that we were talking maybe a little bit about the guilt that they might feel if it's their consumerism that drives daddy to work so much.
	Okay.
	If it's explained to them, well, you know, I mean, do they want the organic food, the boys?
	Well, they always say they're thankful that they eat really well because they feel healthy and strong and they see how other kids get sick a lot and the kind of food that that is just, I mean, I know not everybody has the privilege of eating organic, local, delicious food or even the knowledge or the choice or the desire to do that.
	But like, I think, I think they're grateful for it.
	They seem happy about it.
	And they always tell me like anytime we've eaten something that's not home cooked, they're like, oh, your food's better, mommy.
	And like, I think they, I think they're happy about it.
	Right.
	But if the perception is that they get the organic food at the expense of time with their dad, that's the balance that I'm trying to figure out from perspective.
	Maybe, maybe they wouldn't care as much about the food, I mean.
	Well, it's not whether, I mean, they care.
	It's just do they and is it being communicated to them that the food is there because daddy isn't?
	Yeah, it is because I, yeah, it is.
	Okay.
	It is.
	And yeah.
	So that's sort of my question is, and you know, they're, they're young, as you say, six and seven.
	But are they being asked about that?
	Like, would you rather have maybe some slightly less hyper-organic or whatever you're doing in terms of food?
	Would you have, would you prefer food of slightly less quality for an extra hour or two a day with your dad?
	See, this is exactly why I called you because I was thinking, what are these blind spots that I need to find?
	No, they're not blind spots, my friends.
	They're not blind spots at all.
	It's simply that this is not how you were raised.
	Did your parents ever inquire as to what you wanted in terms of balancing pluses and minuses and weighing benefits and costs?
	Never.
	Never.
	So you wouldn't think to do this any more than you'd think of chatting to your kids in Mandarin, right?
	So you didn't grow up with parents who tried to figure out what you wanted from your perspective.
Not Raised to Weigh Choices 00:07:28
	And so when you look at your kids, it wouldn't, I don't think, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it would cross your mind to say, well, I need to ask them what they want from their perspective because that's not what happened, it sounds like, with you and your husband with your parents.
	I think that I think I've, yeah, I think with some things, I do have, like, I do ask their, of course, I do ask their perspective, but with this, this particular very big thing that I didn't really realize was so big, I haven't, I haven't asked them specifically, but I will be talking with them.
	We will both chat with them as a family.
	Yeah, because if you're going to give causality, like dad's working because of the organic food, I know it's not a huge deal.
	We're just sort of picking on that one as a sort of clear example.
	But if you're going to say this is happening because of something that you want, then you need to give them a choice.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	You need to give them a choice.
	So, yeah.
	So when I was traveling a lot, you know, my daughter, when she was younger, she very much enjoyed the traveling and then she didn't after a while.
	I can surely.
	And so I had to say, well, I mean, part of my income comes from traveling.
	So we'll have less stuff, less sort of disposable income.
	If I travel less, we'll be able to.
	And she's like, yeah, I'm fine with that.
	You know, it doesn't cost anything to play Monopoly or chat or anything like that.
	So and, you know, true to her word, she was absolutely fine with that.
	And she came up with a bunch of stuff that we could do that was no cost.
	And so if I'm going to give her causality, then she needs to have a choice or at least feedback.
	I heard you say that the other day in a talk.
	I can't remember.
	It was alive, I think, but I did hear you say that the other day.
	And I thought, huh.
	And then it went out my mind and now it's coming back.
	So, okay, I really, I appreciate that.
	Yes.
	And of course, if it turns out, and of course, I understand this hasn't been going on for eight years.
	And so I'm glad to get that perception cleared up.
	But the problem, of course, is that if this just becomes the way that things are, the problem is if you've ever had that feeling, you said you hike in the woods, right?
	And it's a lot easier now with all trails and GPS and stuff.
	But if you've ever had that feeling like, ooh, are we going the right way?
	Right.
	That sort of, and you feel like every step could be taking you in the wrong direction.
	The problem with going in the wrong direction is it hardens, like the foliage almost grows in behind you or something like that.
	Because if you spend too much time going in the wrong direction, it becomes too painful to turn around.
	And so if you are chasing money at the expense of your husband's time with both you and his sons, then the longer you do that, the harder it is to bring up because the concern about regret is significant, right?
	So that's why I'm glad you called.
	And listen, you may review everything with your kids and decide to go on in the current direction for some period of time.
	But as long as that conversation remains active, then that's, I think that's the key because I don't know whether you should save more money.
	I don't know whether your husband should spend more time.
	I don't know any of that.
	But I sure do know it needs to be discussed and the pluses and minuses need to be evaluated pretty rigorously.
	Yep, they absolutely do.
	And yeah, this gives me a lot of, it gives me some direction, at least.
	And we can figure out if this is going to be like a temporary thing or yeah, I have confidence that we'll be able to work through it.
	But it's just the starting the conversation, which will definitely be happening when we get off the phone.
	Yeah.
	And of course, there could be, and, you know, I don't know if there is, but there definitely could be these kinds of patterns where if your father was gone and your father-in-law was gone, then that's just the template is you just you just work.
	Now, of course, I know that one of the dads was, I think it was your dad who worked because he didn't enjoy spending time with your mother.
	And of course, I get that that's not the case at all.
	But and as you also pointed out, and I wanted to sort of mention this as well, he does physical labor.
	And in your 40s, as you sort of pointed out, you do begin to slow down.
	You know, it just is wear and tear, right?
	So my other concern is, is he not giving himself sufficient rest and recovery to the point where he may be jeopardizing his ability to do this kind of work in the long run?
	Yeah, I think about that all the time.
	Right now, like, so we also are, we do a lot of yoga and we do a lot of like bike riding and weightlifting.
	And we eat really, like we want to, we keep our bodies well, but the thing, a big piece of being well is also rest.
	And I feel like that's a piece that he doesn't give himself enough of.
	And yeah, I mean, I just think.
	Hang on.
	Oh, okay.
	Hang on, hang on.
	He doesn't give himself enough.
	He doesn't do it.
	Okay.
	But the conversation hasn't been had, and the expectation is that he works more.
	So are you guys, are you Christians?
	We're not, but we, we, we align with a lot of the values.
	Okay.
	So you, you sort of know the one flesh argument from Christianity that a man and a woman are one flesh.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Right.
	So if you say he doesn't give himself enough rest, that's a collective conversation with you and to a smaller degree, the kids.
	Because he is not operating independently.
	Like if he, if he was living alone and, you know, he was calling me up and saying, man, you know, I'm in my 40s.
	I work out four hours a day, but I keep getting all these tendon problems.
	I'd be like, well, you're not giving yourself enough rest because that would be a decision he would be making in isolation, right?
	But he's not making, I mean, you know this, right?
	As well as he does.
	He's not making any decisions in isolation.
	Yep.
	So when you say, well, he's just not giving himself enough rest.
	I think that's sort of stepping back and viewing him as an independent entity, which he's not.
	I'm sorry to, I don't mean to Niagara Nitpic or anything, but that phrase just gave me some pause in that, listen, you're the wife.
	You can make him do whatever you want.
	Let's not keep each other.
	I'm just saying this in case my wife hears.
	No, I'm kidding.
	But no, I mean, if you, if you were to say to him, listen, man, please work less.
	Come home.
	I don't need all this stuff.
	I can do a little less organic.
	I can do a little less expensive stuff on the weekends.
	Let's not worry too much about money.
	Plus, you're going to burn yourself out and you're going to injure yourself.
	And if you're self-employed, God, you don't have any catastrophic insurance usually or anything like that.
Don't Worry About Money 00:02:06
	And you usually can't get welfare and stuff.
	So, or disability.
	So, you know, let's not keep running this treadmill super fast because eventually you're just going to fall over and the kids miss you.
	And, right?
	So, if you were to make that case, he certainly would listen to it, right?
	I hope he would.
	I mean, there's been times where, so yes, he would, because you know what?
	It's happened once before when I was early postpartum with my second son.
	And I, I called him, like, I broke down one day on the phone and just said, like, I really need you.
	Like, I need you home.
	I need more support.
	And he did.
	He did come home and he did work less for a little bit.
	And, but, of course, it just kind of snowballs back into the long days and the-but why, but why?
	That's the question, right?
	Yeah, like, I don't know if he just feels like I'm handling everything on my own or like we need to.
	We need to talk about this.
	If you won the lottery, what would he do?
	Let's see, you want $10 million in the lottery.
	Oh, he would definitely not want to be continuing with the job he's doing.
	Okay, so he would be home, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so he wants to be home.
	You know, because there's some people like they kind of quote win the lottery, right?
	Like, like actors, like the famous actors that get paid like, I don't know, $10 million a movie.
	They just keep making more movies, right?
	So even though they, quote, won the lottery and could, they wouldn't have to work for the rest of their lives, they go work, right?
	I mean, Tom Cruise, what, $400 million, the guy's worth, and he gets up and goes to do these crazy stunts and, you know, whatever, good for him, right?
	But so your husband wants to be home, right?
	He does want to be home.
	Okay, so why is he not working to be home?
	You want him to be home.
	He wants to be home.
	The kids want him to be home.
	I'm still trying to figure out this like weird ghostly arm.
	You know, it's like when, when in Genesis, right, like God kicks Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden because Eve, and then he puts a flaming sword that bars their way back into Eden.
Why He's Not Working 00:15:55
	And I'm trying to figure out what is this flaming sword, so to speak.
	And it was better when he was home, I assume, right?
	Yeah, it's always, it's always better when he's home.
	Okay.
	So is it, is it mostly the fear of running out of money?
	Or is it like, what, what keeps this treadmill running at such a high speed?
	I think it is that because he sees how the, like, the, sorry, the dollar is going.
	And I think he, he feels like he's working so hard and the money is worth less.
	And I think there's fear around that.
	But again, like, this is something I really need to talk to him about because I feel like I'm just fumbling for answers right now and I'm not making much sense.
	But there's an answer for you, right?
	Again, we can't speak for him, as you know, and I appreciate you not doing that.
	But there's an answer for you as to why this conversation hasn't happened because you certainly have wanted him home more and you've talked about it.
	And as you say, postpartum with your second, you begged him to come home.
	So there's a reason why you aren't pushing this conversation.
	And that sounds like, I don't mean pushy, being pushy, but just making sure it happens.
	No, I understand.
	I hear you.
	And you're right.
	I think, well, a lot of it is, I like, I feel like I should be, there's a part of me that feels like I should be able to handle everything.
	But there's another part of me that is, I have fear about talking about it too, I guess.
	Like I don't, I don't want him to think that I don't appreciate what he's doing.
	Okay, so that's great.
	And I appreciate it.
	It's very honest.
	Let's take that one at a time.
	So the first one is that you feel you should be able to do it all on your own.
	Yeah.
	You feel that the ideal is a single mother and that's the best.
	That's the best because a competent woman wouldn't need a man at all, except for money, which you can get for the government.
	Right.
	So it's the ideal that if you say, I want you home more, that he's going to be perceiving you as not competent or something like that.
	Yeah, like there's a part of me that I feel like my needs are not like I'm, I have a hard time asking for what I need.
	Like I feel like a sense of, I don't know, weakness or I'm going to get in trouble.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So that comes from where?
	My childhood.
	Your childhood, right?
	So if you say, I'm going to need help or I need you guys or I can't do this on my own, what would your parents say?
	Oh, I mean, it wouldn't even say that to them, but I don't know if you can.
	Well, but that's because you know what they would say.
	So what would they say?
	Yeah, you can fend for yourself or like, I don't want to deal with this right now, or I can't handle whatever it was that my mom would say.
	Or just my dad wouldn't be there.
	So it was just kind of expected that I took care of it.
	Like I, I, children were to be seen, but not heard.
	Oh, yeah.
	My mom was like, I know you're a pain because I was in front of her between her and the TV.
	So I know you're a pain.
	You're just not a window pane.
	So is it the case that with things like homework or other things where you were confused, or maybe if you were dating and you didn't know what was going on, that if you had issues with homework, you couldn't go to your parents because they would be annoyed or angry or upset with you.
	Yes.
	So they would also be, I mean, I'm sorry to say this also, but my parents were not very intelligent.
	And I was like, I feel, yeah, a lot of it was either I was annoying them.
	They didn't know.
	I really truly just like didn't want to be anywhere near my mom.
	So trying to connect with her was just painful.
	So I just would rather not ask and just suffer like in something like mathematics, for example, which was not my strong, if we're talking about schoolwork.
	Instead of them thinking, okay, maybe we should like get her help or a tutor.
	If we're not capable of answering these questions and she needs support, like why don't we do something to support her?
	It was just like nothing.
	They just were like, why aren't you doing better?
	That was kind of the, that was kind of the, yeah, the length of what they, where you need to do better or something like that.
	Yeah, just this magic wand called do better.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So going to your parents was much more trouble than it was worth.
	Like you wouldn't get anything good.
	You just get negative stuff, right?
	Yeah, I would.
	And also, um, yeah, I didn't, I didn't get acknowledged when I was doing well either.
	So if I was doing well, it was like my mom would just get even more annoyed with me.
	Like she didn't want to hear about any successes, anything that was going on.
	Why was that?
	Well, she was, you know, I've, I've been, because I knew this call was coming, I've, I've been reflecting on this for, I've been wanting to call you for like this call is coming.
	Like there's an existent tsunami or a forest fire that's approaching.
	This call is coming.
	Be careful.
	It's coming.
	Anyway, go ahead.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	No, I, I mean, I've just been, I've been thinking about calling you for a long time and I've been putting together everything in my mind and reflecting because becoming a mom has brought up everything for me.
	So just it, okay, I totally forgot what the question was.
	Sorry.
	Oh, the question was, why would your mother be upset if you were doing well?
	Oh, okay.
	Well, my mom seemed to hate her life and she was joyless.
	And like, unless she was with a friend or she just didn't seem to be happy for me.
	She seemed jealous of any success that I had.
	And she was always really just kind of like mean toward me.
	She told me specifically she didn't want to have kids.
	And then she ended up having my sister and I.
	And especially once I got into kind of like puberty area, when I started, you know, I was really pretty and that really bothered her.
	She just was really angry toward me all the time.
	And I think that was just some, that was her own stuff.
	It wasn't me.
	But it was very hurtful.
	So I just knew like when she was, she was also alcoholic.
	I knew the nights when I would get home from school, don't talk to her.
	Like I could tell when she was in the mood to not even approach her.
	And some nights she wouldn't even make dinner.
	She would just tell us to fend for ourselves when I was like nine.
	And now you're organic super cook.
	Right.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Exactly.
	Sometimes overcompensation is a good thing.
	It's a good thing.
	Right.
	You can take care of her health.
	I'm going to be very healthy.
	My mother was crazy.
	I focused on super rationality.
	Like it can actually be a good thing.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	No, it just, it, it became like home was not where I wanted to be.
	And I didn't want to ask for help because that would mean getting rejected, trying to connect with her.
	Well, not just getting rejected, but being aggressed against.
	That too.
	Yeah.
	Many, many times.
	Yeah.
	And she would have disliked your looks because it gave you opportunities maybe she felt she didn't have or she misused.
	Oh, and she told me that I ruined her looks because I ruined her body.
	I ruined her.
	She's a vampire.
	Yeah, I keep telling my daughter I'd have hair if it wasn't for you.
	Yeah, it's crazy.
	Right.
	It's just that kind of, yeah, she just seemed very hateful toward my sister and I and just of being the mom in general.
	She didn't seem to enjoy her life.
	She didn't have much joy.
	She was, yeah, it was just, there was no deep connection ever.
	And it was just, she was a victim all the time, too.
	So she can't do it because of this.
	And it was just too much for me to try.
	So I would just come home and go into my room and like listen to music or draw or write.
	And that was the extent of our relationship, unless she had like a tirade through the house and would slam the door open and yell at me about I don't even know what.
	And yeah, so it was just better to like not ask.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Are you ready for the tricky part of the conversation?
	Oh, because you know, it's been nice and easy so far, right?
	Okay.
	Are you ready for the tricky part of the conversation?
	Yeah, let's do it.
	It's up to you.
	We don't have to.
	It's your choice.
	See, I'm giving you choice.
	I will just, I want to apologize if I'm fumble a little bit, but no, no, it's fine.
	It's fine.
	We'll go through it.
	Oh, listen.
	If it was all totally easy, there'd be no point having the convo, right?
	If we were just going over the times table, it wouldn't be much of a convo.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Now, not that your husband would ever do this, ever do this.
	But if in the middle of a conflict, your husband said, my God, you're acting exactly like my mother.
	How would you experience that?
	Oh, I wouldn't feel good.
	Right.
	Right.
	So why?
	Knowing what I'm doing about her.
	Right.
	So why are you treating your husband like he's your mother?
	Oh, weird.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	It would be highly offensive to you if your husband said to you, you're acting like my crazy, abusive, nutty mother.
	You'd be like, how dare you put me in that category?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I see what you're saying.
	But you, oh, yes.
	I can, oh, it was hard to ask my mother for help.
	So I'm going to put my husband, my beloved husband, the father of my children, the light and love of my life.
	I'm going to put him in the same category.
	I'm going to put him in this big box called crazy, aggressive, dysfunctional, raging, hateful, drunken mother.
	Yeah.
	Oh, that's not, that's not good for him.
	Oh, okay.
	I assume he's not that way.
	Not at all.
	Okay, so how dare you put him in the category of the woman and the man who did you the most harm on this planet?
	Right.
	Well, why am I doing that then?
	Well, I don't know.
	Why are you doing that?
	Oh.
	I guess.
	I mean, if you were to say to your husband, uh, hey, you're great.
	You're great.
	But in pretty crucial areas, I'm going to treat you as if you're my parents.
	What would he say?
	Well, he'd probably ask me why.
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	I don't know.
	How would he feel about that as a stated goal?
	Yeah, he wouldn't feel good.
	Yeah, please don't.
	I'm not them.
	In fact, you hate them.
	So why are you putting me in the category of people you hate and don't even talk to?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	I think I have, I think I have some issues around like vulnerability and love and connection.
	And no.
	I feel like I can't.
	Get old girly on me, young woman.
	Don't even try.
	Oh, but I'm so vulnerable and I just have problems with connection.
	Nice try.
	No.
	what is the issue?
	Why would you treat?
	No, listen, I'm not.
	Look, I'm not at all.
	This happens to all of us, right?
	So I'm not preaching from any perfect place by far.
	But you got to be conscious of it.
	So what happens is you've got to say, oh, I want to ask my something.
	I want to ask my husband for something.
	Ooh, but I feel bad about that because I always, things went from bad to worse when I asked my parents about things.
	And then you say, but my husband is not my parents.
	So I need to act differently.
	So it's the fact that you have the impulse is perfectly human.
	Right.
	But the question is, why don't you know that yet?
	And again, this sounds like some big finger wagging thing.
	If it's any consolation, I think you're younger than I was before.
	I figured this stuff out.
	So I say this with all humility.
	But that's the big question is why do you, why do you not know that you're treating your husband or putting him in the same category as brutal and neglectful abusers that you don't talk to?
	Could it be something to do with like authority?
	I don't know.
	I'm really feeling, I'm having a really hard time with this one.
	Yeah, I'm like blanking out.
	Okay.
	So if you think of Ask us, you did ask your husband for help, right?
	After your second born when you were postpartum.
	Okay.
	And how did that go?
	He helped me.
	Yeah.
	It works, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	So that would normally give you room to say he's different from my parents, right?
	So you did, you know, bite the bullet seven years ago and minus whatever it was, the postpartum, right?
	So six or seven years ago, you bit the bullet, you asked for help, and it really worked out, right?
	Yes, it did.
	And I'm sure that there have been other times when you've asked for help and it's worked out.
	It has.
	Like, for example, we had the like the flu one year, and I remember I needed him to stay home an extra day because I was really sick and he did.
	I think I'm, I'm also worried that like it's I don't want to upset him and like have him get behind in something he's doing and like be an inconvenience.
	No, no, that's upsetting him and being an inconvenience.
	That's straight up parenting stuff, isn't it?
	Right.
	Like not your parenting, but how you were parented or not parented, but how you were tracked.
	Yeah, whatever, right?
	Not wanting to be.
	So when you have narcissistic or selfish or whatever, hostile parents, then what you do is you go full armadillo.
	You try and curl yourself into a non-existent ball to stay out of their way because there's never any positive attention, right?
	Yeah, and that's that's what I'm doing.
	Yeah, so I have to exist without needs because every time I have needs, it clashes with the narcissistic needs and I get dumped on, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	And he's pointed that out to me before.
	He's been like, why are you asking me like that?
	Like, why just ask me?
	Don't ask me and flinch, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Like, he's always like, why are you bringing it up?
	Like, there's some horrible thing about to happen if you just want to go, you know, have coffee with a friend or whatever it is.
	Right.
	Right.
	Or the Charles Dickens, like the Oliver Twister.
	Please, sir, can I have some more porridge?
	And then he gets sold into slavery or something, right?
	Okay.
	All right.
	So it means that there's something not finished with your parents if they're still spilling over to your marriage to this degree, which again, I'm not saying it's enormous.
	It's not some big catastrophe, but this is a bit of an overlap, right?
Willing But Not Over Their Dead Body 00:10:16
	It is for sure.
	And I felt like because I gave them a lot of opportunity to come and I was trying to get us to go to counseling together.
	And I was, once my kids were born, I, my first son, anyway, they, my dad never met my second son because he passed away in 2020.
	But I asked them, please, can we go to counseling?
	Like, I want to figure out what, how to fix our relationship and at least talk about things that happened so that I can, because I'm stepping in as a parent now and I'm having all these things come up.
	And they weren't willing to go.
	My dad said, my dad's my dad said, oh, we'll go.
	We can go if your mother will.
	But my mom, of course, no, she didn't want to.
	She said therapy is for crazy people.
	None of that ever happened.
	It was a lot of like gaslighting and just not wanting to take any responsibility.
	And I said, okay, well, we exchanged like a final text one day.
	And I said, like, I'm, I am willing to put in the work.
	Like, can we do this?
	And then I didn't hear from her until my sister called me one day to tell me my dad died.
	So I didn't even get to like work through anything.
	Oh, that's so horrible.
	I'm so sorry.
	That's just, that's so vengeful.
	It's almost beyond belief.
	Right.
	Like, I like, I'm not even going to tell you he's sick.
	I'm not even going to tell you he's dying.
	Too bad he's dead.
	He just, he died of a heart attack.
	So it was really sudden.
	It was sudden.
	And he was, he was only 70.
	And I was, I was always kind of like holding out the hope that they would reach out.
	Okay.
	So you said your husband was in your 40s.
	And please don't give me your exact age, but are you sort of mid-late 30s, early 40s?
	Are you somewhere around that?
	Mid to late 30s.
	Mid to late 30s.
	Okay.
	And your husband has been listening to me for how long?
	It's funny that we always, I always hear you ask everybody this.
	And it's like, there's so much work still to be done.
	Oh, because I need to know how much the yellow.
	Sorry, that's just, I just need to know how exasperated to be with him.
	But anyway, go on.
	Probably, I don't know, 10 or 12 years.
	10 or 12 years.
	Okay, fantastic.
	Fantastic.
	Yeah.
	And what was your husband's view of your desire to go to therapy with your parents?
	Well, he didn't like how everything that I told about them.
	And I mean, he said, like, yeah, if you want to go to therapy and try to work through it, he was supporting me with that.
	But he also was, you know, he didn't like, he wasn't wanting to see them.
	Like he, he didn't want them around our kids either after hearing what my childhood was like.
	Okay, so if he didn't want them around his kids, why would he want them around you or accept that?
	Yeah, good question again.
	I mean, let me give you an example.
	So let's say there was some kid in the neighborhood who beat the crap out of your six-year-old, right?
	God helped.
	I mean, God forbid, right?
	I'm sorry to use such a brutal example, right?
	And let's say that your husband went over and they sucker-punched him, right?
	What would you feel towards that family?
	Hate.
	You would hate them, right?
	Yes, yes.
	You would hate them for what they did to your husband and even more what this child did to your son, right?
	And if your husband said, okay, I'm going to go back there after his jaw heals or whatever, he gets his teeth implant done, I'm going to go over there.
	I'm going to try and heal this relationship and work things out.
	Yeah.
	Heck no.
	You know, you're not.
	Over my dead body in a way, right?
	Don't you dare go back and think you can fix these crazy people, right?
	These evil people.
	Yes.
	And that's why I asked how long, because it's like five years ago that you stopped talking to your mother and you didn't even know that that was the case at the time.
	That we would stop talking.
	Well, never talk again.
	And, you know, you wouldn't even find out that your father died till after the fact.
	So if I understand this correctly, I don't think you said, that's it.
	I'm not going to talk to you again.
	I'm out of the family.
	I'm done.
	It just kind of faded, if I understand it correctly.
	I told them that I didn't want them around unless they were willing to participate in therapy.
	But if they were not, then I wanted to like step away from the family.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So this was in your early 30s.
	And this was after your husband had been listening to what I do for five to seven years.
	Did he say to you, they can be fixed?
	No.
	What did he say?
	I don't remember exactly, but I know that he knew how my mom and dad were.
	And I know he knows that they were too far gone to at least my mom for sure.
	Well, no, they're a system, right?
	There's not one or the other one flesh, right?
	It's like saying that the right hand is evil, but the left hand is virtuous, right?
	I mean, that wouldn't make much.
	Both are needed to strangle someone, right?
	So, okay, so your husband, and how long did he watch you struggling with your parents?
	I guess you'd been together four years by the time you separated from your parents or put the final ultimatum forward about therapy.
	So he'd known that four years, right?
	Sorry, the timeline is a little bit off there.
	It was about a year and a half that I was a I was pregnant.
	I think I was pregnant with my second son at the time.
	So it was only a year and a bit, I think, that I had given them that sort of ultimatum.
	And then my dad passed.
	Right, but the ultimatum was 2020, right?
	It was before then.
	No, it was probably 2019.
	Okay.
	I think because my son was born, my first one was born in 2018.
	So it was probably, I think it was around 2019.
	Sorry, I don't have a whole person.
	That's totally fine.
	I'm just trying to catch up.
	Okay, so you'd then been together with your husband about three years.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And so he knew, when did he find out about how your parents were?
	Oh, yeah, right away.
	That's what we talked about.
	Good free to main listener talks about childhood.
	That's important.
	Okay.
	And so he watched you for years wrestling with trying to fix your family or get them to therapy or repair things and so on, right?
	Oh, yes.
	Okay.
	And that's interesting.
	So in hindsight, what could he have done that might have been better?
	I guess just say, no, there's no, like, there's no fixing this.
	Let's, we need to be separated and they need to stay away from the kids.
	Right.
	Because what's embedded in the principle or the premise, I can fix my parents.
	I can take actions to make them healthy, moral, happy, virtuous people.
	Oh, I don't know.
	That it's my responsibility.
	Yeah.
	So if a doctor is working on a patient and the doctor believes the patient can be saved, how does the doctor feel when the patient dies?
	That they didn't do enough?
	Well, they feel bad.
	Yeah.
	Whereas if you bring in, I don't know, a body from the 15th century and you say to the doctor, I need you to bring her to save her.
	What's the doctor going to say?
	That's not happening.
	I mean, it's dust in a bowl, man.
	Like, this is like a skeleton in a suit of armor.
	I can't bring her back to life.
	They've got no organs, right?
	So implicit in the premise, I can save my parents is that you fail if they're not saved, that you failed, that you could have tried something or done something.
	And I'm not talking about if you finally get to the closure thing, but that whole process, right?
	Yes.
	Now, can selfish people be turned into kind people?
	I don't mean when they're little.
	I mean, as adults, and particularly, I guess your parents were in their 60s and 70s over this.
	Oh, your father was 70 when he died, so 60s.
	No, I don't think so.
	Okay, so why did you think so?
	Well, this was also before I really started thinking about a lot of these things.
	And because none of this is a criticism, just so you know, I'm just curious.
	I want to sort of follow your pattern of thinking that you can fix these selfish people.
	Well, I guess because I think about the changes that I've made in my life that have gone really well and the fact that I've made a lot of changes to who I am and the choices I make and the things that I value.
	And I think because I did it myself, I guess I did have some hope that maybe I don't know.
	But now that I'm looking at it, that's how they live their lives till they're 60.
	Like, why would they, why would they change all of a sudden?
	Well, have you ever been a tyrant and an abuser?
	No.
	Have you ever screamed at children who want your help or yelled at them or been drunk half the time?
	No.
	Well, okay, I've yelled.
	I've yelled.
	Okay, not every day, right?
Confronting Family Tyrants 00:07:12
	I assume it's not.
	Oh, no.
	No, it's like, yeah, but I have raised my voice.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And that's not the end of the world, right?
	I mean, it's okay to be exasperated.
	It's okay to be angry around kids because they also need to know that emotions are fine, that they're not destructive.
	You can be angry without being hateful or hurtful or something like that.
	So, okay.
	So you have never been an abuser?
	No.
	Okay.
	So what you're doing is it's like you have parents who are in the mafia, right?
	And you're saying, well, look, come down to the police station and be honest.
	Because look, I can go down to the police station and be honest and I'm fine.
	That's because you don't have bodies in the backyard.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	If the city, like if you have parents who have literal bodies in the backyard and the city has to come by to dig up for some water main or something, if it's your house, you're like, okay, please put it back the way you came, but we need water, so go ahead and dig, right?
	And you're like, well, why are my parents so upset about letting the city dig in their backyard?
	It's because they're going to find the bodies, right?
	Yeah.
	So you don't have any bodies.
	They do.
	They definitely do.
	They can't go to therapy.
	Are you kidding?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Because therapist, if the therapist is any good, is going to say what?
	Well, they're going to ask about their childhood, wouldn't they?
	Well, they'll ask about their childhood.
	If it's family therapy, they'll ask about what the standard was of discipline and involvement and interaction and so on growing up.
	Right.
	And then they'd have to be honest because we'd be sitting there with them and they'd have to face what they did because they wouldn't be able to be dishonest because we, right, we'd be there to say otherwise, I would think.
	Right.
	So, and then, I mean, the therapists have seen this 10,000 times, right?
	Is that gaslighting abusive parents are dragged into therapy by their kids and the parents are highly manipulative, highly toxic, but with big smiles and, you know, oh, you know, we just, I guess we just have slightly different recollections or whatever they do.
	So then you would have to bring the truth to your parents and what happens when abusive parents look directly in the mirror with no distortion.
	Okay.
	Well, well, I actually don't know because I've, I mean, they just denied it.
	So if you have an ally, if you haven't, sorry to interrupt, if you have an ally in therapy who's really skilled at getting them to confront themselves and let's say that they can no longer lie their way out of something and they see clearly what they did, what happens?
	Maybe they would justify it or the therapist would undo all of that too.
	I feel like I'm fumbling again.
	I don't know.
	Well, they become murderous or suicidal.
	Oh, okay.
	Okay.
	Right.
	In general.
	Like, if, because you have to look at, at least I don't say you have to.
	Sorry, that's a bit rude.
	The way that I view abusive parents is like a crime syndicate.
	And if someone is, so in this, in this instance, you are somebody who's the child of mobsters, of soprano-style criminals.
	You're the child, and you're going to the police to inform on them.
	Right.
	They cannot have that happen.
	They're not going to jail for the rest of their lives.
	They're not going to face the chair, right?
	Yeah, they need to silence you or silence themselves.
	Right.
	So, of course, they'll bribe you.
	They'll threaten you.
	They'll gaslight you.
	They'll do anything rather than have you go to the police station.
	And so it was kind of a dangerous game.
	I'm not saying, obviously, your parents would kill you or anything like that.
	But what I'm saying is that the murderous feelings or the suicidal feelings occur when the denial is broken down.
	And I would imagine that before the denial was broken down, if your parents even got a whiff of where the therapist was leading them, they would jump up and storm out.
	They simply would not stay for that.
	I can see that.
	Yeah.
	Because when you said, mom, dad, the price of a relationship with me is going to therapy, they killed you in their hearts.
	That's how it felt.
	Sure, but that's what it was, in my view.
	Yes.
	I've never understood how you could, how can you do that to your child?
	It's never, it's never, it's been such a wound for me, like to, because I cannot imagine ever my kids coming to me with something that they, that I, I've maybe instilled in them or some concern they have.
	Like, I can't imagine ever doing that to them.
	Like, I, I want to hear what they have to say.
	Well, and I'll do everything to them.
	And I'm sorry to interrupt.
	I truly appreciate that, but that's because, let me give you another example.
	You're walking down the street.
	It's late at night, and there's a guy following you, right?
	And he's like, I'm going to get you, whatever creepy thing he's saying, right?
	So you're terrified, as would I be, right?
	But so you're terrified.
	And then you turn around behind you to see where he is.
	He's almost upon you, but right behind him is a cop, right?
	How happy do you feel?
	Great.
	Incredibly relieved, right?
	I'm not going to get killed or raped or whatever, right?
	So you are incredibly happy and thrilled.
	And you say, oh, officer, thank you, right?
	This guy's been following me and the officer is going to make sure that you get home safely and he might arrest the guy, whatever, if he's done something illegal, right?
	So you turn around and you're incredibly relieved and happy to see the cop, right?
	Now, let's say that the guy has a bloody knife in his hands.
	So then he's going to get hard questioned by the cop.
	He might even get taken down to the station.
	They're going to take the knife.
	They're going to run DNA on the blood.
	And let's say there's a body somewhere in the city that's right.
	So, so, so he, the cop saves you, but the cop catches the murderer.
	So obviously, this is the cop is the therapist.
	And you're saying, well, I can't imagine how you could just be incredibly thrilled, happy, and relieved that there's a cop right behind you.
	It's because you're the victim, not the perpetrator.
	If abusive parents have the mindset of criminals and therapists are the cops, that's why they wouldn't go.
	They're going to get caught.
	And that's why if you were to say to your criminal parents, your mafia parents, well, the price of a relationship with me is going to confess your crimes at the police station, what are they going to do?
	Yeah, they just get rid of the relationship then.
Why Abusive Parents Refuse Therapy 00:13:41
	Yeah, they're going to be like, nope, I'm not going.
	I'm not going down to the cop shop, man.
	Forget it.
	So I would say that, I mean, were your parents violent towards you and your sister?
	So I do have recollection of spanking when I was young with like a wooden spoon.
	But and I, I don't, they weren't so much violent physically.
	My dad was actually very just passive and not just wouldn't say anything.
	But my mom would be very, it was mostly like verbal and like emotional sort of abuse.
	And what would she say to you?
	Oh, just, I wish I never had you.
	You're an ungrateful little bitch.
	Excuse my language, but just you kids are driving me crazy, like just that kind of general stuff.
	Or you're you, you're, what did she say?
	Trying to think.
	A lot of it was about not being grateful and not appreciating what she does.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So I wish you'd never been born is a statement of murderousness.
	Yeah, it is.
	Yeah.
	And that's saying that there is no bot.
	Yeah.
	And then she said she never said that, even though my sister and I have spoken about it.
	And we many times she said that, but she was probably either she's denying it or she was drunk or, you know, that was the part that really would get to me was like the denial of it afterward.
	Okay, but why would that get to you?
	Why would she say why would she admit this behavior?
	No, you're right.
	Why would she?
	You're asking her to confess to a crime.
	Yes.
	Because there's no one on earth who's even remotely decent who would think that that's appropriate parenting.
	Of course not.
	Kids, I wish you'd never been born.
	You've ruined my life.
	You've ruined my looks.
	You, right?
	So I suppose the challenge is: I don't know that you've processed the immorality of your parents.
	I think you're right.
	And that's why they keep spilling over.
	So the way that we keep parental influences from spilling over is we have a robust immune system.
	And that means clearly identifying the immorality of their behavior.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And it's an extreme example, of course, but if your father was a hitman and you were trying to get him to therapy to confess, your husband would say, what?
	What are you doing?
	That's not going to happen.
	He's dangerous.
	He's dangerous.
	Yeah.
	Like you can't, there's no magic wand to reform this black heart, right?
	You can't turn evil into good.
	Say, no, no, no, but I want him to find compassion and maturity and mental health and happiness and love and right empathy.
	It's like, bro, that was burned out of him decades ago.
	There's nothing there.
	You're asking a guy who lost his arm to a shock attack to regrow his arm.
	Yep.
	I don't know why I'm assuming that everyone is like how I would feel.
	Like that's they've shown me how they feel and what they think or if they even feel.
	I don't know.
	Well, and I sort of sympathize with you.
	In this case, I would put the burden, so to speak, more on your husband, because we're all attached to our own families, of course.
	That's how we can't survive without that.
	So my question is: this is why I asked, when did your husband find out about this stuff?
	Because my question would be, why did he not, you know, I hate to sort of say let you or like, why did he let you?
	Because, you know, you're not under his control.
	You're not a puppet, right?
	But why didn't he sit down and say, this is a very dangerous game that you're playing in terms of your history and your past and whether you can fix people?
	And I don't think you understand how immoral and dysfunctional and destructive they are.
	Like, I think that you are trying to turn a mountain lion into a house cat.
	You're kitty, kitty, kitty.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And this, you know, he has, he has similar things with his own parents and he kept us away from them.
	So I'm curious about why it wouldn't have been the same with my parents.
	You said that his parents are elsewhere and they don't, he doesn't talk to them.
	But did he identify if his parents were sort of kind of deeply immoral?
	Did he identify that immorality?
	In his parents?
	Yeah.
	Yes, he did.
	Okay.
	So his parents are, I hate to say evil is almost a cartoon.
	If it's just say immoral, right?
	So his parents are immoral.
	Would he say that your parents are immoral?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	If you had a babysitter who did to your children what your parents did to you, but just for one night, right?
	And you come home and your sons are crying and they say, it's because, you know, Beth, the babysitter, said it would be better off if we'd never been born.
	That your parents are going to get away from you.
	They brought me over because they hate you and they want to get away from you.
	And they told me that they wish you'd never been born.
	I mean, that would be unbelievably creepy and evil to do to your little boys, right?
	Of course.
	Right.
	And would your husband say to a babysitter who said that kind of evil stuff to your kids, oh, you know, let's give her, let's talk to her and say that's inappropriate and, you know, we'll try it again.
	Yeah, no, she, he, that's not at all how it would go, of course.
	Okay.
	Right.
	And so I'm trying to understand what happened between your husband and your parents.
	I'm trying to understand it now, too.
	Because he did not put them in a separate bucket.
	So in your mind, this is why we were talking about like, why would you put your husband in the same bucket as your mom, let's say, right?
	In terms of asking him for help.
	Sorry, I have these like these half, half, half light year long journeys.
	Whatever, right?
	So I just want to sort of recap, right?
	So you didn't want to ask your husband for help because it was bad to ask your parents for help.
	So why are your husband and your parents into some degree at times, not always, of course, right?
	But to some degree at times in the same bucket, it's because he didn't fight them tooth and nail.
	Okay.
	And if he doesn't fight them tooth and nail, it's kind of like a little bit of a collusion, which is why you put, or rather, why your husband put himself in that same bucket.
	Wow.
	I didn't even think of that.
	Okay.
	Provide and protect.
	So what this means is that you don't like asking for help.
	And your husband, for reasons we can, I'm sure, puzzle out pretty quickly, your husband did not take a strong, firm stand saying they're deeply immoral.
	You can't fix them.
	It's dangerous and unhealthy to try and it's going to have negative effects on our marriage.
	So why didn't he say that?
	And of course, we don't know for sure from him.
	And I'm happy to talk to him if he wants to talk.
	I'm certainly be very pleased to do that.
	But why didn't he take that as strong a stand with your family as he did with his?
	I wonder if it was if it was, I think he thinks that I know he thinks they're immoral.
	Like I don't think it was that.
	And that they hurt you enormously.
	Yes, yes.
	And that you continuing to try and fix them would also hurt you and continue that pain.
	Oh, why didn't he want to protect me in that moment then?
	Well, no, we don't want to mind read because I'm sure he did, but why didn't he take that stand?
	And that's something in the marriage.
	It's something in you and also in him.
	But he did it with his own family.
	So he's not defending his own family because a lot of times we can't call out evil people or immoral people, let's say, if we also have immoral people in our life, right?
	But he had done that.
	He'd drawn that line with his own family.
	So why didn't he stand between you and your parents and let you for years try and fix them?
	Did he?
	I don't know.
	Do you want me to have like for me to figure it out myself?
	Or no, because that's not.
	We don't do that with people who are acting unconsciously.
	I mean, to take a silly example, if your son is running towards the road, you don't say, well, he'll figure it out.
	Of course not.
	Right.
	Oh, Steph, I'm getting very flustered trying to figure out the answer to this.
	Well, how much was he able to affect his will with his mother?
	Oh, not at all.
	Right.
	So I think he put you in the bucket of his mother first.
	Well, I'll be here to support.
	I'm not going to be too strong.
	I'm not because do you know what I mean?
	Like, it's almost like you guys are still, in a sense, merging you with each other's parents.
	Okay, I can see that.
	Because he's like, well, if I tried to take a really firm stand with my mother about immorality, I mean, things would go to hell in a handbasket, right?
	So I'm going to just, I'm going to be supportive.
	I'm not going to be overly strong.
	I'm going to let her go down this road and so on, because he couldn't be strong and effective with his own mother and call out immorality because that was his mother, I assume.
	And so that would have been gone very badly for him.
	So maybe he's like, well, I couldn't be morally clear and decisive with my own mother.
	And so maybe he unconsciously put you in that same bucket.
	And then you end up putting him in the bucket of I can't ask for help.
	Because like, you see, there's this sort of cross-pollination of history.
	I do.
	Yeah.
	And I think, I think we need to have a lot more conversations about this stuff.
	I think it will be really helpful for us.
	And I actually, I would have, I guess coming into this call, I was thinking, oh, we'll get touch on all these things about me.
	And it's mostly just me that needs to work through this.
	But then you bringing this up and realizing, of course, we're the same.
	We're married.
	And it's he's dealing with everything from his childhood as well.
	I think we really need to have some meaningful conversations here.
	Yeah, because if you the big challenge, so you're homeschooling now.
	So you're in the latency period, right?
	It's after the terrible, after the storms of the twos and before puberty.
	So things with your kids, I'm not saying that's super easy, but the real challenge comes and it comes with huge amounts of pluses.
	So it's obviously not a big negative.
	But in the teenage years, you guys are going to need to be really, really freaking decisive about good and bad people in your lives and in your children's lives.
	Yeah.
	There can't be any of this, you know, maybe you got some sociopath around, but you'll figure it out because that can go really badly.
	Right.
	So you need to be decisive when you see something negative or sense something negative around your children.
	You need to be absolutely decisive in a way that you weren't, or that he wasn't with your parents.
	Okay.
	And it can look, it certainly happened before puberty, but of course, puberty, they're off with their friends and you're not with them 24-7, you know, in their teenage years and so on, right?
	So you have to be very good at identifying dysfunction and pathology and acting with blinding decisiveness to protect your kids, at least, you know, and of course, educate them.
	And so, you know, because when you go out into the world, you won't be with them 24-7.
	So they'll need to internalize this stuff.
	But you can't be if you think that your husband is going to react to you asking him for what you need like your mother did, then you won't be able to be as decisive when really dysfunctional people come in because it's too blurry.
	Okay.
	The children of healthy parents are a special treat for the dysfunctional kids.
	They are.
	It's like the sweetest thing.
	You know, it's their organic food.
	It's their delicacy to consume, so to speak, right?
	I, yeah, I do.
	I already am seeing the differences between our boys and others and other kids, just when we take them to a, whatever, a class or we're at the playground.
	I, I definitely see differences and I want to keep those strong and I want to keep them like I want to keep us as a strong family unit.
	So maybe we've been avoiding certain topics, talking about them.
	I don't know if it was consciously or not, but like I feel much better knowing that at least I have a bit of direction to kind of like strengthen our marriage and strengthen our relationship, which will in turn, hopefully help me feel more relaxed as a mom too.
Living Parallel Lives 00:06:44
	Yeah.
	And it really just comes down to, and I'm sorry to, again, be sort of lecture naggy guy, but it just comes down to if you have the desire to ask your husband to be home more, and then you feel a resistance towards that because you don't want to be too demanding or you don't want to be difficult or what we talked about earlier.
	You don't want him to look at you and think you're incompetent, right?
	Which you're not, obviously, right?
	And that's unfair to think that he will.
	So if you have the desire to ask him for help and then you have this resistance, what's the most honest thing you can say to him?
	I can tell him exactly that.
	Yeah.
	Hey, you know, here's my crazy thought of the day.
	I think if I ask you to be home more, you're going to think I'm incompetent or you're going to get angry and irritable at me.
	Like, yeah, so, and that's, I call this sort of real-time relationships, but you, you just say, but, but you have the option to withhold things from him, to, to wrestle alone.
	Now, wrestling alone, that's your childhood, right?
	Yes.
	So that's something that it's easier to wrestle alone than to connect with people and ask for help because when you connected with your parents, it just made things worse, right?
	Yes, it does.
	So you have these habits developed, the habits we all develop from childhood is lying our asses off.
	And I don't mean that in any negative way, like that's essential.
	So you had difficulties as a kid, which we all do, and you could not talk to your parents.
	So they'd say, how are you doing?
	You'd say, fine, how's your homework coming?
	It's fine.
	So we lie our asses off because telling the truth just makes everything worse.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, just about being more honest, like being more honest with him.
	And yeah, there's, you know, there, there are days when I feel really kind of low where, and he comes home and he can see that.
	And he has mentioned it to me before about how you just seem this way some days, like when I come home.
	And that doesn't feel very good to him.
	But it's also because I'm not being, well, I am being honest with him on those days, though.
	I just tell him it's really hard.
	Like I had a really hard day today or I had a hard time communicating with the boys.
	And I guess I just haven't felt very supported in some moments with that.
	You mean when you say you had a hard time with the boys?
	Yeah, like I feel like he doesn't empathize with that very well sometimes.
	Well, because sorry, one of the reasons for that is that your experiences are just too different because he barely sees the boys during the week and you're with them like 16 hours a day, right?
	Or 12 hours a day when they're away.
	Yes, that's exactly it.
	That's exactly it.
	And I've mentioned that before.
	And yeah, it's, I don't know how else to say that.
	Right.
	So, I mean, you certainly, you're living parallel lives in a way in that he's living the life of a mostly single, mostly not parented workaholic and you're living like super concentrated single mom life in a way, right?
	I mean, obviously, I know there's tons of overlaps, but I think, and, and that's, that's tough because having different experiences means that you have less and less in common over time.
	I was thinking about that the other day and I was thinking, that's why I would like to go.
	I asked him the other night, can we please go on a date night?
	And he said, okay, get the sitter.
	But again, it's like, I'd love some initiative from him with that too, like putting, thinking, okay, I'm going to organize the sitter and like, let's go out.
	But I feel because we get into a rut with that, that we've, like, we've lost a bit of our connection.
	And I don't want it to be where the kids are grown and then we're just getting together for the first time.
	Like, I, I want us to nourish our relationship and make sure we're connecting all this time and like a team.
	Right.
	Um, whereas sometimes, like you were saying, I feel, yeah, it does feel like we're kind of living parallel lives.
	And yeah.
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, and yeah, the, the honesty thing is, here's what I'm feeling.
	Here's what came before it, but I'm not blaming you.
	Right.
	So if someone in my family does something that annoys me, I will say, I'm annoyed.
	You did this and I became annoyed.
	I'm not saying you made it happen, but I'm telling you that's my experience.
	Right.
	Because otherwise I just have to cover up that I'm annoyed or pretend that I'm not.
	And that's just kind of weird and disconnecting.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And I do that a lot with the boys.
	If I'm feeling a certain way, I'll explain to them why I'm feeling that way.
	And that it's just, that's the feeling I'm having right now.
	Right.
	And you will only be able to help them a certain amount with their conflicts because that's just they need their dad for that.
	A hundred percent.
	And I see how much quicker they resolve things when he's home.
	It's so annoying, isn't it?
	Exactly.
	It's so annoying.
	It's insane.
	Oh, like, why can't you listen to me the way you listen to your father?
	I, I, I completely like, I really understand that.
	I know that as a male, but but it's, it's, uh, it, it's like, what, what magic kid whisperer thing is, what voodoo are you using?
	How does this?
	Anyway, yeah.
	Yeah, but I mean, that's, that's just the nature of the beast.
	If you had daughters, it'd be probably the other way, but, but.
	Yeah, I'd say that's one of the most exasperating things.
	It's just, but it's also great because then I see when he's home and I see how the our relationship dynamics shift in the house and it is more peaceful like when he's home.
	Sure.
	Sure.
	And he just, yeah, you need to talk with him.
	And when you're feeling this, like, I, I feel like I want to ask you, but I feel like you're going to think of me as incompetent or something like that.
	And look, you may not be wrong.
	Maybe he's got something because of his past where he will think that, but, you know, you just, you just talk through it and you figure out, I mean, the first question, of course, is like, is this like anything in the past?
	But so what's the first question when we have emotions that don't seem to make much sense to say, okay, well, it doesn't make sense in this context.
	You know, like the vet who was in a war, if he's at a fireworks show, he's going to get kind of stressed, but he knows it's because it was the, it was the war, not the fireworks, right?
	So what is this like in the past is sort of a big important question.
	And I'm going to be honest about feeling crazy, like it doesn't make any sense that I think you're, that I think you would believe I was incompetent if I asked for help because I know you're not like that, but you know, and then so just because the more that we keep secrets, the more we are acting like our parents are still around.
What's This Like in the Past 00:05:32
	The more that we cover things up or the more we bite back what we think and feel, then the more we are acting like our parents are still around.
	And then the more we're going to put our partners into that category of dysfunctional parent.
	And again, I think that the big thing is you and your husband, who are doing great, by the way.
	Like this, these are tweets.
	So I just want to express my deep admiration at everything you guys are doing relative to where you came from.
	It's great parenting no matter what, but given where you came from, it's even the more extraordinary.
	So I don't want to overshadow that and sort of as if there's some big negative stuff going on here.
	These are tweaks, which we all need.
	But the big thing is to sit down with your kids and say, you can use blocks.
	You can use blocks.
	You can use M ⁇ Ms. You can use beans to say, okay, this is what the house costs.
	This is what groceries costs.
	This is what the cars cost.
	And here's the extra money.
	Now you see these five extra M ⁇ Ms. That's less time with dad.
	And we've been sort of saying it to you, like you were younger, so that kind of makes sense, right?
	But we've been sort of saying it to you, like this is an absolute.
	Look, these five M ⁇ Ms, that's not an absolute.
	And so we have to decide more time with dad, less money.
	And so you can, you can, kids, again, I'm sure your kids are very smart, right?
	So you can put it out with M ⁇ Ms. You can explain it with Lego.
	You know, you can do any number of things so that they can visualize it and understand it.
	Because kids at that age, you know, if you've got the visual cues, they'll get stuff very quickly.
	And yeah, like, like, I'm sorry that we made this decision for you because it wasn't really fair because you are the customers and you also can't go anywhere else for your parenting.
	Like you're kind of stuck with us.
	And so, you know, we need to start really asking what's best for you.
	Do you want like, what would you give up for an extra seven days a month with your dad?
	I mean, worth of time, right?
	I don't necessarily, right?
	But like, what would you, what would you, what would you give up to have dad come home two hours before you went to bed so that you could do your insane male rough housing, which is what they're doing right now?
	I have no doubt whatsoever that there is massive brutality going on in the next room, and it's probably good you're in this room and not looking at it because you're waiting for someone's elbow to go the wrong way, right?
	Oh, you know the worries of a mom.
	I do, I absolutely do, I absolutely do, I love it and I, I like them doing it.
	When I don't watch, oh yeah yeah no my my, my wife is like please go teach her how to ride a bike.
	I can't watch, I just cannot watch.
	Um, so yeah, so so, but it it's.
	I think it is certainly time to bring, bring your kids in and so they get a sense that their needs really matter and their preferences can be acted upon.
	Because the soonest you can give your kids traction on their will and their environment, so that they're not just passive and reacting and i'm not saying that's all they're doing i'm sure you give them tons of choices, but in this particular area, maybe focus a little bit more.
	But because, because you and your husband grew up with no traction in in your families with regards to what you wanted, you just had to grit your teeth and put up with whatever you know shite.
	Sandwich came, came down the conveyor belt and uh, you know, I think certainly at six and seven it's a pretty good time to start getting.
	Uh, i'm trying to remember how old my daughter was when she made a ferocious case for homeschooling, but it was something like that and uh, and so we, we accommodated that and and that's been been great, but I, I think, really working to get their feedback In their thoughts about stuff, so that they feel like partners rather than just kind of being pulled along by parental decisions.
	I think that's where the real bonding comes from is when they have a say and it really matters.
	I love that.
	Thank you.
	This is exactly what I needed to hear.
	I agree with you.
	And I just think of all the amazing conversations we have all the time.
	And I'm already visualizing the Lego and the chatting and just the little expressions on their faces.
	And they're such good communities.
	And then the government came along during COVID and just knocked all the Legos off the table because that's kind of what they did to all of us, right?
	Yeah, which, yes.
	And we got to rebuild and all of that, right?
	And you can help them understand, you know, here's how much money we've got saved.
	And, you know, here's how much our monthly expenses are you can take.
	And like, how many months do we have?
	Like, they can really start to under.
	And then what you're doing as well is you're giving them the kind of financial education that you needed to avoid the kind of debt that you got in your 20s.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Very true.
	Just right.
	Well, it's like, I think we're mostly done.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention or how's the conversation been for you?
	It's been great.
	And I really appreciate your patience with me when I was kind of fumbling around there.
	But I've never missed this.
	It's not patience at all.
	I mean, I fumble just as much when I'm given those questions too.
	So it's not patience at all.
	It's a natural part of the convo.
	Yeah, I really appreciate your time.
	I feel like I've got some great takeaways here.
	And I'll definitely be, we'll be chatting as a family.
	I'll be chatting with my husband.
	I'll definitely let him know that he might want to talk to you.
	Also, you're certainly welcome.
	And I hope you'll drop me a line.
	Let me know how it goes.
	And, you know, big, big hugs to your boys from me.
	Thank you so much.
	You're very welcome.
	Have a great night.
	You too.

Chapters

00:00:00 Saturdays and Tiredness
00:14:21 Quality Family Time
00:30:31 Peers Over Parents
00:37:18 Working Overtimes
00:40:05 Recent Debt Struggles
00:44:16 Explaining First Time Hearing
00:46:56 Perspectives Unveiled
00:50:20 Not Raised to Weigh Choices
00:57:49 Don't Worry About Money
00:59:55 Why He's Not Working
01:15:50 Willing But Not Over Their Dead Body
01:26:07 Confronting Family Tyrants
01:33:19 Why Abusive Parents Refuse Therapy
01:47:01 Living Parallel Lives
01:53:46 What's This Like in the Past