Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - Problems with My Black Mom? CALL IN SHOW

Jan. 9, 2026 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:46:41

Problems with My Black Mom? CALL IN SHOW

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	Nice to meet you.
	Nice to meet you.
	And I guess we're talking about dating after divorce this morning, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And just a reminder, it's a public call.
	And so just stay off names and places.
	And I'm all ears if you want to dive in and let me know how I can best help.
	Okay.
	So we spoke before and we talked about the fact that I was in a really bad marriage.
	It was abusive and it was started on very bad terms.
	I have removed myself from that situation since and have finalized my divorce, have started a life on my own, and now I'm dealing with the aftermath of that.
	So I'm both sorry and happy to hear about all of this.
	And just remember, how long ago was it we talked?
	We spoke in January.
	Wow.
	It's been a busy year.
	It's been a busy year.
	It has.
	So do you want to catch me up to speed on what's been going on this year?
	So I moved away from my marital home.
	I was originally going to go live with my mother, but I decided to take a detour, ended up in a city that seemed comfortable and that I liked.
	And I started a life here on my own.
	I probably ill-advised, started a relationship pretty soon after leaving my marital home.
	And it went very poorly.
	I don't know if that is specifically due to it being so soon after me leaving my marital home or if that is just a nuance that is particularly attributed to me.
	I guess that's where the problems kind of arise is struggling with habits formed in a almost evil marriage versus dealing with life in the normal world with relatively normal people.
	Right, right.
	Was there a big event that happened at the end of your marriage or was it that sort of water wears away a stone?
	Like you just woke up one day and it's like, I have to get out or what happened at the end?
	No, at the end of the marriage, yeah, I know you talked to like a million people.
	At the end of the marriage, it was physically abusive and emotionally neglected.
	So we weren't even speaking for the last three or four months of the marriage.
	So there was no connectivity between the two of us at all.
	No, sorry.
	I'm sorry to interrupt.
	I do remember the outlines of the bad marriage.
	I was just wondering what was it that made you at the end of it all?
	Because you were still in the marriage when we talked in January, is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So yeah, what was it that was the final straw?
	And how long were you married again?
	Five years.
	Five years.
	Okay.
	So what was it that was the final straw?
	Until I spoke to you, I wasn't looking at the marriage from an abusive perspective at all.
	Thought that I was the problem in the marriage solely, and that if I corrected my behavior, the marriage would turn into a good marriage.
	Um, after you and I spoke, I guess I it was easier to open my eyes to some of the flaws in my thinking and my thought process that got me into the five-year marriage in the first place.
	And I guess from there, everything kind of unraveled quite easily because I could see the issues from day one and they sort of trickled down through the rest of the years.
	Right, okay, okay, got it.
	Okay, all right, okay, so how tough was it to get out?
	Um, it wasn't really tough at all.
	Like I said, since he wasn't communicating with me, um, his plans were set.
	Uh, he was gonna stay out of the state with his son for the rest of the uh winter, and so I basically had free reign of my life to some degree.
	So, I just started packing and collecting my things.
	And um, on March 1st, I left and let him know that I left, and he didn't care.
	Uh, he said, okay, and we didn't speak um until the day before the divorce was going to be finalized.
	I just let him know that I was going to be in his area if he wanted to talk or anything.
	He didn't, and then the divorce was finalized in October.
	No, in yeah, yeah, in October.
	So, it wasn't hostile in that kind of way.
	No, um, it wasn't hostile at all.
	Uh, we spoke just for me to let him know that I had left the home and that I had put his dog in a border.
	Um, and then we haven't spoken at all since then, and it hasn't been hostile at all.
	And there's been just no interaction at all.
	Wow, wow, how did how does that feel?
	Um, it's it's as I expected.
	Uh, when I called him to let him know that I had packed up my stuff and left, um, I was already in another state by the time I called him, and I let him know, and he said, Okay, okay, okay, okay, to everything I said, and then we hung.
	Okay, um, sorry, I think, okay, you said my bad.
	I'm sorry, okay, okay, okay, okay.
	No, you're you're fine.
	Um, yeah, it was it was a business arrangement when you really get down to it, and and the business arrangement side of things was was over, right?
	Wow, um, I thought about you a lot when I made my dating decisions afterwards because they were all kind of hasty, and I uh I felt like they probably were not well advised.
	Um, I don't know, I guess that's a part of um, I really hate all this divorce stuff.
	I feel like everything in my life now is a bit of a joke.
	Um, I had all these misconceptions about people that get divorced, I guess, uh, that they had sort of contributed to the demise of their marriage and that they were a part of the problem.
	And now I feel like I'm living that same life.
	Um, I don't know, I feel like every decision I've made probably since then has been not a good decision.
	I don't know what you're supposed to do after you're married and then you're not married.
	Dating seems very frivolous.
	It seems even more reckless than it was when you were like a teenager.
	I don't know.
	Marriage gives you a lot of purpose.
	It makes your life feel like it has some sort of direction.
	And it's very odd to not be married and to navigate interpersonal dynamics.
	I don't know.
	I guess without there being marriage at the end of it, I'm not even sure that there's a point.
	I don't know how to deal with that.
	It's tough.
	Now, I don't obviously want to tell you your own experience, but I was not ever divorced, but I was in a lengthy relationship in my 20s.
	And the problem is, of course, that especially a marriage, by the time it ends, I don't want to speak for your husband, of course, but I would imagine that you're pretty lonely.
	I mean, you haven't even talked to the guy for a couple of months.
	When was the last time with your ex-husband that you were you felt sort of happy, connected, in love or something like that?
	Probably about a year before I left.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, so a year of living with someone and not being close, and I guess things getting really distant towards the end, that's horrible.
	It's one thing to be hungry.
	It's another thing to be hungry at a buffet, you know, where you're looking at all of your favorite foods, you know, because this is someone that you used to love and care for and connect with.
	And so, living with someone when you're distant is absolute hell.
	It's absolute hell.
	And so, by the time you split up, you're really hungry for connection.
	And so, then, of course, when you split up, you dive into another relationship, but it doesn't work out as you said, right?
	So, it's a really, really tough situation when you've had a long period of alienation in a marriage and you split up because you're kind of desperately lonely.
	Or, I think, I mean, tell me if that wasn't the case, but you kind of want a connection with someone because you've been missing it, but it doesn't tend to work out at least soon after the marriage.
	Is that was that somewhat like your experience, or is that not accurate?
	I wouldn't say I was desperately lonely at all.
	I think it was more of a matter of wanting to right the wrongs of my marriage.
	And so, like, you don't want to get into another relationship where there are these voids that you don't know how to fill.
	That's that's, I think, probably the scariest part.
	Um, but what do you mean by voids you don't know how to fill?
	I just want to make sure I understand what you mean by that.
	Um, so, so, that was one of the issues in the marriage: I didn't know what he needed and what was making him unhappy and how to make him happier.
	I felt like I was already doing everything I possibly could do.
	And so, um, that's definitely a scary part about a subsequent relationship: you know, is this person going to be upfront and honest with me about what they want and what they need?
	And are they going to allow me to have the time and space to fulfill their needs?
	That's that's scary.
	I think that's scary, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	Well, especially if somebody's in a bad mood and they're dangerous when they're in a bad mood, but you don't know how to prevent their bad moods.
	You're just living with a randomly hungry lion, right?
	I mean, it's pretty nerve-wracking.
	Yeah.
	No, that's that's that's definitely a concern.
	I don't like that.
	It's not that I feel maybe even scared of my partner.
	I think it's more just that you, like I said, it's a void that you want to fill.
	And to me, there's something odd about being with someone that if they have a um a need that's not being fulfilled and it's negatively impacting their emotions or the way that they interact with other people.
	That's that's an urgent issue that has to be solved, in my opinion.
	Well, you said, I mean, he was violent, right?
	Yes.
	So wouldn't you be scared of him?
	I'll be honest.
	I wasn't.
	No, I always felt like the violence was directed at other people.
	That is incorrect, but I always felt that way.
	And I felt like as long as I was being a good wife, then I could probably try and help curb that tendency.
	You fix him.
	No, you know, yeah.
	Fix him.
	Fix him, fix him, fix him.
	Right?
	Make him make him less violent with love.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So how often was he violent with you?
	It was periodic.
	I wouldn't say there was any kind of pattern to it.
	It just on average.
	Once or twice a month.
	But isn't that scary?
	In hindsight, yes.
	In the moment, no, it wasn't.
	So what was it in the moment?
	In the moment, it was he's having a bad day.
	He's having a rough day.
	People are upsetting him.
	And my role was to be patient and understanding and kind and emotional release was my mindset about it.
	Oh, like he's this is sort of the catharsis theory that anger kind of builds up like like urine in your bladder and you just need to release it.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	You know, that's that's not a real thing, right?
	That's not a true statement.
	Anger is generated by the desire to dominate and harm in in the moment.
	It is not something that sort of builds up and needs to be discharged.
	I understand what you're saying.
	All right.
	So in hindsight, do you think that you were scared at all or you just viewed it as a sort of necessary release for him to be violent with you?
	Yes.
	The latter.
	Yeah, in hindsight, I was never scared.
	I don't remember spending any time being scared.
	Okay.
	And for how many years did you suffer this violence one to twice a month?
	That was the whole five years.
	And how long were you together before you got married?
	Three months.
	Right.
	Right.
	And you wasn't violent in those three months.
	Is that right?
	No, no, but we also were engaged in like a long-distance relationship.
	We were on the phone, not in person.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So tell me what happened to you.
	You moved out in January.
	Is that right?
	No, in March.
	In March.
	Sorry.
	Go ahead.
	Oh, we are.
	Sorry.
	We talked in January.
	So you moved out in March.
	Divorce is finalized in October.
	So you moved out in March.
	And when did you get into the next relationship or the post-marriage relationship?
	In March.
	So you moved out and you got into a new relationship in the same month.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And how did you meet the new, can we just call him Bob?
	Is that okay?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	Bob is an old friend from when I was a good bit younger.
	Oh, so Bob was a guy who was staying around with you as a friend, but he actually wanted to date you.
	Like every single friend of a woman in general wants to date her if they're about the same age.
	So Bob was a guy who wanted to date you and he hung around.
	And then did he pounce after you left your husband?
	I wouldn't say that.
	I reached out to Bob because Bob is my only Christian friend.
	And I just wanted Bob to pray for me.
	Bob was concerned.
	He asked me some questions.
	We hadn't spoken since I gotten married.
	No one knew.
	None of my friends.
	I never told anybody.
	No, I never told anybody when I was talking to someone to get married, when I was moving to get married, when I was getting married.
	I didn't tell anyone.
	So he had been concerned about me.
	And I told him what was going on.
	He was worried.
	And he wanted to try and just be emotionally supportive.
	There was nothing illicit about our interactions on the front end.
	And when I left, I was just going to come visit him for like a week and, you know, just, I guess, kind of relax, do something different.
	And I ended up staying in his town.
	And that's where I live now.
	Okay.
	So I'm trying to sort of follow this.
	You reconnect with Bob after five years.
	Yes.
	He didn't even know you were married.
	And then you moved to visit with him, but not stay with him in his place or?
	No, I just came to town.
	I got an Airbnb in his area.
	I was just going to stay here, hang out, you know, a little mini vacation before I tried to figure out my life.
	Okay.
	And then how did you guys end up in a relationship, a sexual relationship, I assume you mean?
	When I was on my way to leave, he asked me to stay.
	He said, you know, that he didn't want me to leave.
	He would like to pursue a relationship with me and he wanted me to stay in his town.
	So I decided to stay.
	Okay.
	So you were there for a week and you hung out and I guess it was nice and good and fun.
	And then as your vacation comes to an end, he says, stay in my town and be my girlfriend.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So from Bob's perspective, it was sort of put in Bob's perspective.
	Right.
	I mean, okay.
	So I'm sorry, if you can ramme, do you have any kids?
	No, no, right?
	No kids.
	No kids.
	Okay.
	So if you have a son and your son comes to you and says, there's a woman who just got out of a half decade abusive relationship.
	Should I date her?
	What would you say to your son?
	No.
	Right.
	Right.
	So Bob is making bad decisions.
	Yes, agreed.
	Bob is making a bad decision.
	Okay.
	So That's one of the main reasons why it doesn't work out.
	Is that what you needed was emotional support, not sex, I assume, right?
	Um, I'm not saying you don't need sex, I'm just saying that primarily you didn't go.
	I mean, certainly you didn't go there for sex, you went there for emotional support.
	I don't even know how to answer this question if I'm being entirely honest with you, because that is a confusing part of this.
	Um, no, I don't, I don't know that I need emotional support.
	The marriage was a messed up marriage from the start, so once I recognized that it was a really awful marriage, it was kind of easy to mentally separate myself from it.
	Um, Bob, I've known Bob for 15 years, Bob and I are what I would like to consider close, and so I um close you didn't talk for five years, you didn't even know you were married.
	Yes, don't try your stories with me, young lady.
	That's a pretty normal thing for me.
	I know, I don't know what's normal for you, but it's a little tough to hear.
	I just tell you, maybe I could be wrong, but it's a little tough to hear.
	We were really close when the brother didn't even know you were married.
	Okay, fair.
	That is that's a fair point.
	Um, I have a I have a, I have, I typically have male friends, and when I date people, I typically don't talk to my male friends, and they all know that, and they're usually very accommodating of that.
	So, he already he was like, I know you were in a relationship, I just didn't know you'd run off to a whole nother state and got to him for five years, so you weren't close.
	I mean, you may have been close in the past, but you weren't close over that time, right?
	That is a fair point.
	Now, did you not talk to male friends because your husband or your boyfriend would get mad if you talked to other male friends, or for what reason?
	Yeah, and it just seemed respectful.
	Well, wouldn't that be to indicate that at some level you knew that they were romantically interested in you?
	Yeah, that's true.
	Okay, so they're called beta orbiters, right?
	I don't know if you've heard this sort of phrase, right?
	This is this is the this is the the the the backup men that women keep around.
	I don't think okay my mom's gonna listen to this, so like I understand, but like I don't sometimes, even if you're very honest with gentlemen and you let them know, like, hey, I'm never ever gonna date you, I like your company, but I'm not gonna date you, they still hang out like that.
	And you know why because Bob got his wish.
	Did you ever say to Bob, I'm never gonna date you?
	Yeah, and then what happened?
	Yeah, yeah, I yes, I understand.
	I understand.
	All right, so, um, and listen, I'm not trying to criticize you, I just, you know, you got to be clear about the mechanics, right?
	Okay, so sorry, go ahead.
	No, absolutely.
	You're you're absolutely right.
	You're you're fine.
	Okay, so what happened with Bob?
	You he said, be my girlfriend, stay in the town, and you decided to be his girlfriend and stay in the town.
	And what happened then?
	Um, so Bob's uh father got ill or fell ill very shortly after me arriving here.
	Um, Bob also owns his own business, and he's very busy.
	Uh, it's emotionally uh draining for him with the business in some respects, and so um, we just were very uh distant physically Over the course of the entire I'm sorry, I know that you're speaking with your mom in your ear, but very distant physically means you didn't have sex.
	Yes, that is what that means.
	Okay, so you became his girlfriend, but you didn't have sex.
	Or you had sex and then stopped having sex.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So the latter, all right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	I discussed it with him a couple times to try and understand what was going on.
	And it was constantly a conversation of life being stressful or things going on in his family life being stressful and that being the reason why we weren't being physically intimate.
	But it was at the point where we were living together and we weren't even sitting on the couch together.
	We weren't.
	Sorry, you were living together?
	Yes.
	Oh, so you moved from the after you spent a week in his town, you moved from the Airbnb to Bob's place, right?
	Yes.
	Were you thinking of me while you were making these decisions at all?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And in my, what was my fruity voice saying in your ear when you were making these decisions to move in with a guy within a week of being in his town within the same month that you got divorced?
	Well, for being technical, I wasn't divorced yet.
	Okay.
	Separating.
	You're right.
	You're right.
	No, technical is good.
	Technical is good.
	Okay.
	So within a month of leaving your abusive marriage and within a week of moving to Bob's town, you're moving in with Bob.
	Yes, I did move in with Bob.
	I did think about what you would think about that and I figured it would not be favorable.
	Okay, good.
	As long as my voice in your ear is saying the right things, then my conscience is clear.
	Okay, so my voice in your ear or whatever you want to say was saying, this may be a tad hasty.
	No, definitely a hasty, relatively reckless decision.
	I do not disagree at all.
	Okay.
	So you move in, you have a little bit of sex and then no physical connection or even cuddling or anything like that.
	Is that right?
	Nothing.
	Nothing.
	It was entirely a roommate situation.
	And why do you think, why do you sorry to interrupt?
	I mean, look, the stress thing, that doesn't necessarily kill a man's libido.
	In fact, stress can enhance a man's libido.
	So what do you think happened on the I'm sorry to your mom who listens to this, but what do you think happened on the physical side that it went from, I mean, if he'd been sort of interested in you for, what, 15 years or something like that, and then, you know, he finally gets his wish, so to speak, and then he immediately stops, that's pretty, that's pretty wild behavior.
	It's really fascinating in a way, right?
	Absolutely.
	I agree with you entirely.
	I have no earthly idea.
	I cannot even begin to start to pick apart why that happened.
	It made no sense to me.
	I couldn't wrap my head around it.
	I tried to be sensitive in conversations about it.
	He did go get like some testosterone testing and stuff like that done when I first got here because he kind of tried, like he said that he felt like it was age.
	And oh, like he had erectile dysfunction?
	He seemed to think that that might be the problem.
	That made absolutely no sense either.
	He's a healthy, hard-working.
	Well, I'm sorry, but you were around the, was it facing up or down the last time you looked at it?
	Oh my God.
	I don't know how to answer.
	I'm sorry, just but I mean, it's it's kind of hard to, I assume, it's quite hard to hide erectile dysfunction if you're actually in bed with a woman.
	Oh, no, absolutely.
	I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you.
	That's why I said I felt like it was silly and that his pursuits of investigation were unnecessary.
	Okay, so it was point.
	So the last time you saw it, it was pointed towards the belly button, not towards the knees.
	So it seemed to be working fine, but he had concerns about something or other to do with that.
	And again, I'm sorry to be crass, but I promise you it will bear fruit.
	So that's fine.
	Okay, so you had sex a couple of times, and then he, but then he wouldn't even cuddle.
	And I guess if he was concerned about performance, then maybe he would be concerned that cuddling would lead to sex and sex would lead to the, I guess, embarrassing situation of ED.
	Maybe it was something like that.
	I really don't know.
	If I'm being entirely frank about it, the way that I felt about it over time, especially because I am very upfront, I typically bring things up as soon as I can within reason.
	And so I had only been here for a month before I said something about it.
	I felt like he was just really comfortable having a maid and having things done for him.
	And he just wasn't physically interested in me.
	And after the first month, when I asked him, you know, why aren't we being physically intimate?
	He did say, you know, like, I'm not crazy about your weight.
	You know, I'd like you to lose a little bit of weight.
	And then I think everything would be better.
	And so that's okay.
	So let me just get a little background before we get to the weight thing.
	And I appreciate your patience.
	So how much he said he's how much older than you?
	He's two years older than me.
	Oh, God.
	I think you think I was thinking of some crypt keeper here.
	Okay.
	No, that was the last guy.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So he's your age.
	And did you meet him in school or something like that?
	We met on the internet back in the day.
	We met when I was like 19.
	Ah, okay.
	So you met on the internet.
	And why did you guys never date?
	We did date actually when I was 19.
	We dated.
	We were both very active in the church.
	And that was part of our interest in one another: we were both, you know, seeking.
	So he's an ex-boyfriend.
	Yes, he is.
	Well, that's why you didn't talk to him when you were in a relationship because he's an ex-boyfriend.
	Sorry, that was kind of a detail that would have made things a little clearer.
	No, I really don't talk to any of my male friends.
	No, no, but he's an ex-boyfriend.
	So it's a little different.
	Yes, he is an ex-boyfriend from a very long time ago.
	Yes.
	All right.
	And you're in your 30s, 40s?
	I'm 34.
	34.
	Okay, got it.
	So, okay, so you say you're very upfront?
	Not super upfront sometimes.
	I apologize.
	No, it's fine.
	That's fine.
	That's fine.
	Okay.
	So you stayed, you dated, and how long did you date back in the day?
	Maybe like four or five months, not very long.
	And what happened?
	He broke up with me because we were not having sex.
	What?
	He broke up with me.
	Okay, I'm going to spend the whole call massaging your pattern recognition part of your brain to try and get some blood flow.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you broke up with him when he was 21.
	No, he broke up with me.
	Sorry.
	Sorry, he broke up with you because you guys weren't having sex.
	No, he was already sexually active at that point in his life and I was not.
	And he wanted to have sex, but we had discussed initially that we weren't going to do that because we were pursuing a life in Christ.
	And at that time in my life, it was very important to me to remain a virgin.
	And so I did not want to have sex with him.
	He knew that when we started dating, but over time, it got to him.
	And so he broke up with me.
	That's why we remained friends for that long period of time is because I did like him, but he really hurt my feelings by breaking up with me that way.
	So I purposely never wanted to date him because I thought he was kind of a butthole.
	You thought he was kind of a what?
	A butthole.
	Oh, butthole.
	Sorry, I thought you said a bubble.
	Okay, a butthole.
	Okay.
	So when it, and again, I'm don't answer anything you're not comfortable with, but to me, it's somewhat relevant because there are some young Christian ladies who say, I wish to remain a vaginal virgin, which means I can do other forms of sex.
	Or there are some young Christian ladies who say, I'm not going to engage in any form of sexual activity.
	Were you more towards the latter?
	I didn't want to engage in any sexual activity.
	Okay.
	So he was not super Christian.
	No, Okay.
	Got it.
	Because if it's like, hey, if we're not having sex within a couple of months, even though Christ says to wait, I'm breaking up with you.
	So not a great guy as far as Christianity goes, right?
	No, but typical me, I made excuses for that too.
	Like, you know, we were young, so I kind of always was like, oh, well, that's what young people do.
	They're not.
	Yeah, if you're old enough to drive and vote and drink, not that you were, but he certainly was.
	The youth argument doesn't hold too much water.
	No, absolutely.
	You're right.
	All right.
	So he broke.
	Sorry, he broke up with you because you wouldn't have sex with him.
	And but you stayed friends with him because, like, help me understand the quality because he kind of broke your heart.
	That's the horrible thing to do to a young woman, especially because you were, as you said, you were upfront with him, right?
	You said, listen, I'm not going to have sex of any kind until I'm married because I'm walking with Christ.
	And he's like, sounds good.
	It's like, no, I'm breaking up with you because we're not having sex.
	That's a pretty horrible thing.
	I mean, you say butthole was that the three, but it's a pretty horrible thing to do to a young woman.
	So help me understand how the relationship continued for 15 years, if this is the kind of guy he was.
	It's always been important to me to have intellectual relationships first and foremost.
	And I always felt like him and I communicated relatively well together.
	He was interesting.
	He seemed like overall he was a good person.
	We were just growing up.
	And so I didn't see any reason to just, you know, disavow him, like not talk to him at all.
	Okay.
	So, and I'm not disagreeing with you, but I mean, certainly what you've portrayed of me is a guy who's not that great because, I mean, he said, stay and be my girlfriend, and then he wouldn't have sex with you.
	Maybe vengeance for what happened for 14 years ago.
	Absolutely.
	Or, or, but, but, you know, he broke up with you for not having sex, even though he's a Christian and you said no sex before marriage.
	So tell me the good things.
	You said he's a good guy, generally good guy.
	Tell me the good things if you could.
	Oh, Baji.
	He always made me break it down to the point where I feel like I was wrong in the first place.
	No, no, listen.
	I asked you because I want to be fair to the guy.
	And if you tell me, yeah, this guy was really sick twice, but he's generally healthy.
	Okay, then I sort of need to understand that.
	So if, you know, he's been kind of cold and distant and actually mean back in the day, but you say he's a good guy.
	I'm not saying this because, oh, you have to prove to me.
	I don't believe it.
	It's like, no, I just want to hear that side of the story.
	I understand.
	Okay.
	So If I'm being brutal about it, when you think about going through life and like meeting people, I guess I was probably in my phase of life where I was sort of collecting people.
	And so you kind of want to surround yourself with these certain sorts of people.
	And maybe they're hard to find.
	And so you want to hold on to the ones you haven't.
	So he's very, he's very masculine.
	He's very, he's like a country boy.
	And I really liked those character traits of his.
	So he's like Macho.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	He's he's a handy guy.
	He's he's old school.
	He's not, you know, there's no frills.
	He's just a dude.
	And I enjoyed that aspect of him.
	Okay.
	And then none of what you're saying is, I mean, that's nice, but none of what you're saying is like that he's a good guy, like a morally good guy.
	Is that what you meant?
	He seemed like he was always really concerned with his family.
	He seemed like he always was trying to do the right thing.
	Even when he didn't, he did seem like he genuinely was in a struggle to make the right choice.
	Oh, okay, fantastic.
	So back in the day, when he had the urge to break up with you because you wouldn't put out, I assume he prayed to Jesus.
	And Jesus said, no, she's a godly woman.
	You have to restrain yourself.
	You're not an animal and show her respect.
	And if she's a good woman, then sex can wait.
	So he prayed for that.
	Did he struggle with that?
	Did he like, I, you know, I've been deceived by Satan into breaking up with you.
	I'm turning away from the path of the Lord.
	I'm turning away from the commandments of Jesus.
	And was he crying when he broke up with you?
	Because, I mean, did he struggle to do the right thing after he prayed about that back in when you were 19?
	He actually did.
	Okay.
	He wasn't happy about it.
	And then we talked for maybe like two weeks after back and forth because he changed his mind probably like two or three days after he broke up with me.
	Okay.
	So back in the day, he was like, I wouldn't say necessarily sobbing, but he was like torn up by his surrender to temptation.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And so then if we fast forward 13, no, four, sorry, 15 years.
	If we fast forward 15 years, I guess he's 36 now and 21.
	And he finally gets his wish and you're living with him.
	So he's not really advanced much in the Christian faith in 15 years.
	In fact, it's worse now because not only did he want to have sex before marriage, but he wanted you to move in without putting a ring on your finger, right?
	Yeah.
	So his faith has decayed in 15 years, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	Okay.
	Was he struggling with that?
	Was he like, oh, I know it's a sin, but sin is so good.
	I don't know how to act this because it's kind of foreign to my mindset.
	But was he sort of struggling with this now?
	No, that only came up once in the entirety.
	Like we dated for six months, I'd say, and that only came up once.
	Well, no, you weren't dating.
	You were living together.
	We were living together for about six months.
	And him having a moral struggle with our relationship only came up once.
	And that was pretty close to the end of the relationship when I was talking to him about how we weren't being physical.
	And he mentioned that maybe part of why he wasn't being physical was because I wasn't fully divorced yet.
	Oh, okay.
	Okay.
	Come, come to my town because you're not fully divorced.
	Move in with me.
	Let's have sex because you're not fully divorced.
	You know, six months later, I might have a problem with our relationship because you're not fully divorced.
	It's like, I think that's locking the barn door after the horse has left.
	But okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's yes.
	Okay, so I appreciate that backstory.
	And I did promise to get back to the weight thing.
	And I'm sorry that you heard it in that kind of context, but what so he's not overweight, is that right?
	No, no.
	He works a physically laborious job.
	And so he's got a little beer belly, but outside of that, he's fit.
	Okay, so he's a good old boy with a little beer belly.
	And with your weight situation, what was he complaining about?
	I mean, how much overweight would you say that you are if he's right about that?
	I would say that I'm about 40 pounds outside of the weight that he would prefer me to be.
	Okay, so height and weight, just roughly?
	I'm 5'5.
	I'm probably 160.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And when did you gain the weight?
	When my marriage started going poorly.
	So I was this weight when I got married, and the ex-husband demanded that I lose weight.
	And so the preferred weight is 120, 118.
	And so that's typically how I was.
	And then when the marriage started going very poorly, as we discussed prior, I started drinking a lot.
	And then I started gaining quite a bit of weight.
	When I moved here, I was also drinking.
	And myself and the ex-boyfriend drank quite a bit together.
	And the pounds, you know, continued to rack on.
	So I probably came here.
	I was probably like 140 when I got here.
	So I've probably gained 20 pounds since I arrived here.
	Okay.
	So over the course of the relationship, which was six months, you gained more than 10, but less than 20.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	And how is your faith these days if you're shacking out with a guy and all of that?
	I'm always of the mindset that I am, I was raised Christian.
	I do hold Christian values close to me, but I would not consider myself practicing by any stretch of the imagination.
	So it really isn't something that crosses my mind as often as it probably should.
	Okay, got it.
	So when you said to him, when you said to Bob, why aren't we touching each other?
	You know, we're in the supposed to be in the honeymoon period and so on.
	And was his response initially about weight or what was his answer as to why you guys were barely touching each other at the beginning of the relationship?
	The initial conversation was extremely defensive.
	Just, well, you know, I work.
	You know that my dad's sick.
	You know that I'm going through all these things in my life.
	So I can't believe you would even ask me, you know, why.
	But was the why to do just with sex or was it to do with, you know, holding, hugging, cuddling, that kind of stuff?
	It was everything.
	Yes.
	I mentioned that we weren't having sex, but that also, you know, you get up in the morning, you say, you know, bye, have a good day at work.
	And it was this, it was very sterilized interactions.
	Right.
	And it was worse because of the drinking, if I'm being honest.
	We would both get off work.
	We would have a couple beers.
	Sometimes his brother or his sister would come over and they have quite miserable relationships and they would complain about their relationships.
	When they would leave, he would be physically close with me, but it was always under the context of discussing his siblings' bad relationships, complimenting me for not being like their bad partners, and then I would get affection.
	But it was always in that space.
	It was never just random.
	It was always, oh, now my miserable sibling's gone and I'm going to tell you how wonderful you are and touch you for a little bit.
	And then that's that.
	That's the strangest warm-up I've ever heard of.
	Okay.
	All right.
	It was weird.
	I don't, I don't, it was really weird.
	I didn't understand it at all.
	And it was hurtful.
	I guess when you combine those things together, then it starts to become very hurtful.
	Well, and this is just a shout out to the gentleman out there that if you are touching a woman without being emotionally close, it's gross for her.
	If you're touching and you are emotionally close, it's wonderful.
	If you're not emotionally close, she feels like an object and she's not wrong.
	So just, you know, wanted to point that out for the gentleman who listened to this.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So within a month, the physical affection, both cuddling and sex is falling off.
	He's kind of defensive about it.
	How could you bring this up and so on?
	And then what happens over the next five months of living with Bob?
	So, gosh, I guess I don't want to bash his job.
	So I'm not talking crap about him being a blue collar worker.
	I'm just looking at things objectively.
	He owns his own business.
	And so from that perspective, every day is a challenge because you're just hoping people call you, hoping people want your services.
	And I do understand that that's very stressful, having your financial fate in your own hands.
	Been there.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, for sure.
	But it's just, life is just choose your stress.
	You say, okay, well, I don't want that stress.
	It's like, okay, now you have the stress of a boss and politics and HR departments and whatever, maybe not in the blue collar level.
	But yeah, it's just, it's just a matter of life.
	Oh, this is too stressful.
	So I'll go do something else.
	It's like you're just trading one stress for another usually.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	And I guess it made it worse too, sometimes because I would help with the business.
	So he's a solo worker.
	He kind of needed a secretary.
	So I took on that role to try and take some of the weight off of him.
	But that didn't change anything about our physical relationship.
	At this point in time in the timeline, his father had been diagnosed with cancer.
	And we were doing a lot of things in the community with regards to like charity and stuff.
	And it was very time consuming.
	So if I wasn't at work.
	Wait, sorry.
	What was the charity thing?
	For his father's cancer.
	Oh, he's raising money to pay for treatments.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	That became pretty much our whole life.
	So if we weren't working and if I wasn't basically like taking care of the house, then we were coordinating or facilitating a cancer benefit of some sort.
	And I'm sorry to interrupt, but where was is your is Bob's father married?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Well, his wife would be handling a lot of that, right?
	It's one of the reasons you get married is because life can be very hard sometimes and you need someone in your corner, as you know.
	So was his wife handling most of that or what was happening with that?
	No.
	No.
	Bob's family is very tumultuous, dramatic.
	I don't know, pick one of those words.
	So, so no, Bob's stepmother was not actively assisting with any of those things.
	And Bob's biological mother?
	Bob's biological mother is out of that picture as well.
	She speaks to Bob, but she's not close with her ex-husband.
	Okay, so Bob's father married a guy who wouldn't help him when he was sick with cancer.
	Yes.
	Excellent.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, sorry, go ahead.
	If I Bob's family is a part of why that relationship was difficult, also, Bob's family is very rely on Bob for everything because he's pretty much the only relatively responsible one in the entire family.
	Oh, heaven forbid you're the only competent person in a dysfunctional clan.
	They'll just strip your flesh to the bone.
	Pretty much.
	Yes, exactly.
	Even in even post-breakup, I am Bob's shoulder to cry on quite often because his family, yeah, they will strip you to the bone.
	They quite often string him up and sacrifice him depending on the month.
	Right.
	And of course, it's like being the only competent worker in a small office.
	Everybody just piles your desk with work.
	I remember early on in my business career, somebody said, if you want something done, give it to the busiest person.
	Yes, it's awful.
	And then if you just so happen to have a competent spouse or partner, then those things start to fall on that person's shoulder as well.
	And so they're only if you stay.
	Only if you stay.
	Okay.
	Yeah, because competent people need to be competent in asking for reciprocity, because otherwise you're just parenting people who are actual adults, which is not healthy.
	But anyway, okay.
	So you're trying to organize his business.
	He's dealing with his father's cancer.
	You're raising money.
	And I'm sorry to not, I don't particularly understand how this works in the U.S., but I assume that Bob's father had health insurance, right?
	I guess it is a little messy because they all own their own businesses.
	So yes, he does have health insurance, but your health insurance is typically quite a bit, it's not offering you the most helpful benefits when you own your own business because that's quite expensive.
	Oh, so he basically paid less for health insurance and it bit him in the butt because he got sick and then the health insurance didn't cover as much as he needed.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Pennywise, pound foolish.
	I mean, I personally, you know, I prefer to have the insurance because life is risky.
	But okay, so he cut back on his health insurance and then needed to raise money to pay for some treatments, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	Yes.
	Okay, so sorry.
	So that's a lot, of course.
	That's a lot to pile on.
	It's funny because it's kind of a new, not new relationship, right?
	You've known each other for 15 years, but you're living together for the first time.
	So it's complicated.
	So what happened then?
	Things just progressively continued to get worse.
	I will add that both of us drink and the drinking ebbs and flows depending on how difficult life is at the moment.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	You said a couple of beers.
	I mean, that's not hardcore.
	I mean, did it get to more than that over time?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Yes.
	No.
	Yeah.
	To what level?
	I mean, between the two of us, probably 12 to 24 beers a night, depending on the night.
	Well, I mean, that's very expensive, isn't it?
	Yes.
	So wouldn't that money be better used for your, for his father's cancer treatments?
	Yes.
	So you were raising money in part to help fund the alcoholism.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	It's not funny at all.
	But you're absolutely right.
	No, you're absolutely right.
	So when there were ebs in the cancer issues, we would talk about our personal issues.
	And he would say that, you know, well, this week things look better.
	Business is better.
	Dad's better, whatever.
	So we're going to spend more time together.
	We're going to do things together.
	And we would, but they still, they seemed very forced.
	It seemed, it seemed like a chore.
	And then there would be times where I just wouldn't really be interested in going through the motions.
	And so I would go to a local bar and sorry, going through the motions.
	You mean discussing things or having sex or something else?
	Going through the motions, meaning he gets home from work.
	We talk.
	I listen to all his problems about work.
	I make him dinner.
	He plays around with his phone, smokes cigarettes, and then comes in and eats dinner, thanks me for the dinner, takes a shower and goes to bed.
	Like I, if when he's not trying to be physically affectionate, that's what our nights would look like.
	Okay, so he's not wooing much at all.
	No, no, we're, there's no connectivity.
	It's literally just come home, complain about work, play around on my phone until dinner's ready.
	He would be really nice to me after dinner, and then he would go to bed.
	Whoa, what time is he getting up?
	Um, 7:30.
	Why is he going to bed after dinner?
	Uh, I, cause he's, because he's had 12 beers and he's ready to go to bed.
	I, I don't know.
	I'd like what, eight o'clock at night?
	He's sleeping for like 12 hours.
	Sorry, what time is he?
	I'm a little confused.
	So he would get home maybe around six.
	He would have beer.
	He would, you know, do some business stuff.
	And then he would have dinner around like nine o'clock, 9:30.
	And then just go pass out.
	Why is he having dinner so late?
	That seems odd if he's having lunch at noon or one.
	It's it's interesting.
	It seems like some sort of like power move for some guys to eat dinner late because like I can control my time.
	I don't have to eat dinner at seven o'clock.
	I don't know.
	I have no idea.
	Well, Elsa, he's getting calories from beer, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	So you're not probably really hungry until you're a little tipsy.
	Okay, got it.
	So then he eats dinner at 9, 9.30, 10 o'clock.
	He goes to bed and then wakes up at 7.30.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	And then he's the kind of person where he doesn't want to interact with anybody until he's like awake, awake.
	So he'll be up for like an hour and a half and we wouldn't like talk or interact or anything because he's like a zombie.
	And then it was basically like, okay, bye, I'm going to go to work.
	And then also because of his business ventures, most of the time, if there was something going on with the business where there was a big deal that he was waiting to like close, he I almost wouldn't even call him a roommate in those instances.
	He just, he, you, you couldn't talk to him.
	You couldn't talk to him.
	You couldn't interact with him.
	He acted like he didn't even know there was another person in the house with him.
	Okay, got it.
	So then you said you would go to bars.
	Was that after he'd go to bed?
	No.
	So he would get off work late quite often.
	And so sometimes I would get off work relatively early, like two or three in the afternoon.
	And I would go to the house.
	And a lot of times that was the that would be his lunchtime.
	And so he might be at the house taking a nap and then he'd have to go out and do more jobs.
	So sometimes I'd get to the house, see his truck there, text him.
	He wouldn't answer.
	I'd assume he was napping.
	And so I'd just go to the bar.
	I'd be like, I'm going to go to the bar.
	I'll come back in an hour when he's awake.
	Well, I know, I know that everything I'm about to say, you're going to think I'm stupid, but everybody was so nice at the bar.
	Like it's a local bar.
	It's like all old people.
	So they're like all in their 70s and they're so sweet.
	And I started getting kind of attached to the people at the bar.
	And I would rather be there with them hanging out, enjoying their company than him because he was always so miserable.
	And it started to become a problem, especially once I started mentioning that our sex life wasn't good.
	Then it turned into, oh, well, our sex life isn't good because you're never here.
	you're at the park.
	Okay.
	I haven't got to the part where you think I'm going to think you're stupid.
	I think it is.
	I think it was stupid the amount of time I was spending at the bar.
	Don't get me wrong.
	I do think the people there were kind, but it's a bar.
	It's a business.
	You know, they want you to hang out there.
	They want you to buy beer there.
	So why wouldn't?
	Okay, so how much?
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Because I don't know.
	I always like to start with the facts.
	So how much time are you spending at the bar?
	I was there probably three to four days a week.
	Okay.
	That's that's part of the number.
	Did you say that's part of the number?
	That's part of the number.
	Three to four days a week.
	What's the other number I need?
	Oh, for how long?
	Yeah.
	There you go.
	Okay.
	I guess on the mats and from maybe like five in the afternoon till about seven.
	Okay, so eight, eight, eight hours a week at the bar, right?
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	That's that's fair.
	Okay.
	And that's because you weren't getting any kind of connection.
	He wasn't quite often anyway.
	Even if he was at home, sometimes he'd leave to go to another job.
	When he was at home, he was on his phone all the time.
	And what was he?
	But you said playing on his phone.
	Like, were they games or was he doing work?
	Or no, TikTok, golf stuff.
	TikTok golf.
	Oh, like shorts?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And other thing, too, is that sometimes, okay, two, two things.
	When he was at home and he wasn't on his phone, he would quite often get like frustrated about work and he would go to the range, the golf range, and hit balls and do that for a couple hours.
	And he was already at the golf course Wednesday from five to nine and Sunday from like eight to two.
	So there's that.
	And bro, waited 15 years for this.
	Anyway, sorry, go on.
	No, kind of.
	And the other thing he would do, too, is that if he had a really bad week at work, he would go to a massage parlor in town that offers the special massages.
	What?
	Yeah.
	Okay, sorry.
	I'm just trying to get my frontal lobes back up through my nasal passages.
	He'd go to what a rub and tug?
	Yeah.
	For sexual activity.
	Yes.
	What?
	Like, okay, sorry, what?
	Now I know, I know, I know, I know.
	Okay.
	When did this start in the relationship?
	So he told me about it before we ever got together.
	And I told you about what?
	He said, I have this bad habit, which I'm really working on.
	And I'm praying to Jesus and struggling with sin.
	And but, but don't worry, because I'm, I'll never do that if we're together.
	Like, what do you mean he talked about like how?
	I'm sorry.
	Okay.
	So he talked about it like, he told me that he sometimes goes to the rub and tug.
	I told him that that was concerning.
	He told me that he didn't do it often, you know, but it did happen.
	And it was kind of just like, okay, like, I guess I kind of didn't really want to deal with it because we were still talking on the phone at the time.
	It wasn't that serious.
	So we were still talking in the phone at the time.
	So this is before you went to after your in the week or two after you said you moved out of from your husband's place and before you moved in with him.
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	So he said, he said, I sometimes do this.
	And you said that's concerning.
	And what happened then?
	He said that, you know, he was working on it and that he wasn't comfortable with it and that he would make an effort to curb that situation.
	And he, he, he kind of explained it the way I thought it was, which is that, you know, he'd been single.
	He's busy.
	He's working.
	He was just, you know, getting his jollies in a convenient way.
	Okay.
	Not that that's okay.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, he's a he's a fairly long way away from working with Christ at this point, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	I mean, aren't we?
	I don't, yes.
	Well, I mean, there's still degrees, right?
	Fair.
	That is fair.
	So, so that is, if he wasn't at home, then he was probably at the golf course or at the massage partner.
	Well, but hang on.
	So, so he said before you got together, he said, I do this, you know, fairly degenerate stuff.
	But did you discuss it when he said, I want you to be my girlfriend?
	And I'm like, well, you know, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say I don't want you doing this if we're a boyfriend, girlfriend.
	Did you discuss it before you got together?
	Yes, we did discuss it.
	And it was explained, like, well, I have a girlfriend now.
	Why would I need to do that?
	But pretty shortly after we got together, there were a few instances of, you know, hey, I'm going to go to the massage parlor.
	And it was like, okay, that's fine.
	And then after the fact, he would explain that, oh, you know, I was just going for a massage, but I also got this done too.
	Sorry.
	Whoops.
	Yeah, yeah, sort of.
	It's even been told to me that they kind of like make him do it because he's done it before.
	And it's like, that doesn't even make any sense.
	Like, I'm sorry.
	Like a 90, you know, a 90-pound Asian woman forced this big old boy into a hand job.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Okay.
	I don't, I don't, I don't know, but that was, that was bad.
	Um, I don't, um, I would have been willing to be accommodating and like patient if he needed to like wean himself off of it or something.
	But uh, it's, it started to look like a priority and a preference.
	Okay.
	Any inner step voices talking about this in your head?
	Yeah, of course.
	No, of course, of course.
	That's definitely a problematic.
	I mean, that's cheating.
	That's cheating.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So I'll go ahead and ask the awkward question.
	If my mom is listening, she can stop listening now.
	Some people seem like they have so like they've been almost too sexually active in their lives and they're almost like desensitized towards like normal healthy sexual interactions.
	Right.
	And that's kind of where things seemed like they were with my relationship with this, with Bob is that Bob.
	Sorry to interrupt, but didn't Bob say he'd been single for a while?
	Yes, Bob had been single for a while, but I will say these two particular things about Bob.
	First of all, Bob was assaulted as a child.
	Oh.
	Yes.
	And then also, Bob had some girlfriend.
	Maybe like right after he dated me when I was younger, he had some girlfriend that was apparently like a sex genie or something.
	I'm sorry, you're going to have to up me on the lingo because I'm thinking if I dream of genie, but what do you mean by a sex genie?
	I mean, a woman who was just like mental in bed?
	He speaks very highly of this young, of this particular girlfriend from the perspective that she was, what's the right, what's the appropriate word?
	Like anthropomaniac or like somebody who's just sexually compulsive or hypersexual or sexually obsessed or a sex addict or something like that?
	She was a bit of a sex addict, but also she apparently had full control and manipulative powers over her lady parts.
	And he was mesmerized by that.
	He would mention it quite often.
	Like it's one of those things where instead of someone saying like, oh, your meal was delicious, they say, oh, you know, I liked this meal, but such and such would do this.
	And it was so much better.
	Or like she could like, you know, whistle sitting on the dock of the bay through her hoohoo or something like that.
	Okay.
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	Okay.
	And so why, why didn't, I mean, I'm sure I know the answer to this, but why didn't he stay with her then?
	Because she was crazy.
	Right.
	Crazy.
	Okay.
	So so, but he even burned his circuits with crazy.
	It's almost like you go to too many rock concerts and then you can't hear later on in your life, right?
	Yeah.
	And so you can't even enjoy the thing you enjoy because that one thing kind of ruined it.
	That's how it seemed.
	Yeah.
	After cocaine, Amir Sunrise is not that stimulating.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Exactly.
	And so that seemed to kind of always be on his mind was the fact that he had this person that if they hadn't been crazy, I think he thought she was perfect.
	Yeah.
	Did he ever, and I'm sorry to be talking about Bob so much, but I think it's important.
	Do you know if he ever went to therapy for the abuse he suffered as a child?
	I am aware that he went to therapy a little bit, but him and I both share similar opinions about therapy because we've had bad experiences.
	It's just that it's hard to share things with people who might take your money and just tell you that you're okay.
	Right, right, right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Again, hey, look, you say okay.
	I say okay.
	There we go.
	That's the kind of quality interaction you're getting on this call.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So how did things end with Bob?
	So things seemed like they were getting a little bit better right before I went to go finalize my divorce.
	I told Bob and my mom that when I got back from finalizing my divorce, that I might go, that I might drink a little bit because I, you know, not that this is an acceptable reason, but I was like, oh, I'm going through all this stuff, blah, I'm going to drink.
	Yeah.
	Addiction is basically about excuses, right?
	But okay, go on.
	Yeah, fair.
	So I went to finalize my divorce.
	That took about a week of travel and stuff.
	I got back.
	I started a new job.
	Things didn't work out with the job.
	I ended up unemployed.
	So between finalizing the divorce and unemployment, it was a little crazy.
	And I was at the bar more than I should have been for sure.
	He complained.
	But there was sorry, but there was no romantic interest in the bar.
	As you said, it was just like an old guy dive hangout, right?
	Yeah, yeah, no, no.
	I'm at the bar.
	I mean, sometimes I'm there by myself.
	Like, you know, the old people all leave around seven.
	So if I'm there, it's bedtime.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	If I'm there at night, it's just me and the bartender.
	So there were a few nights, I would say probably in a row, if I'm being fair to myself.
	There are a few nights in a row where I was at the bar at the point where he was calling me, like, are you even going to come home tonight?
	Like, what are you doing?
	And so one of the last nights I went to the bar.
	I went home actually.
	I went home.
	I wanted to see him.
	He wasn't there.
	I texted him.
	He didn't text me back.
	I went to the bar.
	I told him, like, hey, I'm at the bar.
	Text me when you get home and I'll come home.
	So he didn't text me until about eight o'clock at night.
	I told him I'd come home in 30 minutes.
	I didn't come home in 30 minutes.
	I think it was maybe like an hour and a half after we got an argument about me being at the bar for so long.
	I basically, first of all, I was tipsy.
	Secondly, I told him that I didn't know why it mattered.
	Because we don't talk when you're home anyway, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	We're not time together.
	We're not, you know, I'm just coming here to sleep in the same bed with you, but that's it.
	And he said he didn't want to talk about it.
	We talked about it tomorrow.
	And I was like, I'm not going to talk about it tomorrow.
	This is stupid.
	And so I went and slept in my car and we broke up.
	Okay.
	And you stayed in the town, though, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I still live in the town.
	Him and I are still friends.
	I feel like we've known each other for so long.
	It seems crazy to not be friends.
	We're still close.
	I still do his laundry and clean his house sometimes.
	And yeah, I still live here.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	So I appreciate that information.
	And how can I best help you in the time that we have?
	Okay.
	Yeah, I've got a list of things.
	Okay.
	I guess the first thing that I would say is a concern of mine is the marriage was so centered around me being submissive and pleasant and focusing on me being of service to you mean, like still doing the laundry at the guy who cheated on you?
	Yeah yes exactly, I don't just just checking in that we're on the same page here, but go ahead.
	No, that's, that's a great segue, so that I can stop giving examples and say that I don't know how to not do that.
	I feel like I don't know how to not do that.
	I don't, I don't know.
	I even when I broke up with him, he was frustrating me.
	I've been thinking about breaking up with him for months, but he fired his maid when he started dating me.
	I feel obligated.
	I'm sorry he.
	He fired his maid when he started dating you, so you had to be his maid.
	Is that wrong?
	That's no no, i'm just.
	I'm sorry, i'm just.
	I know I sound incredulous.
	I just want to make sure I understand.
	I understand the thinking.
	Yes, that is exactly what i'm saying.
	Yes okay, got it.
	So you felt an obligation to continue cleaning his house because he's fired his maid.
	Yes, like I haven't, but he didn't feel an obligation to have sex with you because he outsourced his orgasms to the rubbing tug.
	So he fired his maid but spent more money at the massage parlor.
	Yes yes okay, just just checking.
	We're on the same page.
	Okay, got it all right.
	So uh, the question is um this, uh this idea of sort of feeling, um feeling of utility or feeling the need to feel of utility to people, is that right?
	Yes yes, that's a great way of putting it, because I do notice that I feel that way with everybody.
	It's I don't, I don't, I don't know what to do with that.
	I don't like it.
	Okay, I appreciate that.
	So are you ready for the tough questions?
	These have been easy so far.
	I know that they've been cringe, but they've been relatively easy.
	No, they have been pretty easy, if i'm being fair.
	Yes, already.
	Uh, how much do you like yourself?
	How much do you admire yourself?
	I think I'm cooler than the average girl, but I wouldn't say I'm special by any means.
	That's not much of an answer.
	Okay, so if you were watching a movie of your life, would you admire the protagonist?
	Probably not.
	No, okay.
	So if you're watching a movie of your life and seeing the woman making the decisions that you're making, how would you feel about that character?
	I probably thought, I probably think she had some sort of disability.
	Okay sorry, what do you mean?
	I I think something was wrong with her.
	Like what, what do you?
	What do you think is wrong with her?
	Um, that she was missing some brain cells, that she was stupid, that that she was poorly raised I don't poorly raised, of course, not stupid, not stupid okay, okay.
	So what, what?
	What would be the decisions?
	Like you know, when you're watching a horror movie and somebody says, like you go for help, i'll follow the bloody footprints into the cemetery, and you're like no, you're gonna be the next to go.
	Like you never watch those movies where the characters just make these choices that you just know are gonna lead bad.
	So what would be the choices that you would be making that would have you go?
	Like you know, this woman is not not not the pinnacle of wisdom at this point.
	So So, obviously, the marriage that was, that was bad.
	It's a bad idea.
	For those listening, it is a bad idea to think that you know exactly what you want and to try and sell yourself to your made-up type on the internet.
	That's that's bad.
	Um, I think I think I knew it the whole time, but it is probably not healthy or smart to jump into a relationship three months after leaving a ill-advised marriage.
	Uh, was it three months?
	I thought it was less January, February, March.
	I'm gonna say that's three months.
	Okay, fair, fair.
	Okay, go ahead.
	Fairly.
	Um, so, so, yes, you are, you are correct.
	Um, I do have a series of um unfortunate choices in my wake.
	That that's a fact.
	And is it mostly the drinking that you think is giving you the extra calories?
	Because, I mean, alcohol is just sugar, right?
	Or is there, is there other things that you're doing that are causing the wake game?
	I very rarely eat, I just drink.
	I don't, yeah, oh, you're one of those kind of drinkers, yeah, okay, right, right, okay.
	No, so, so, no, that was bad, and that is what uh was the catalyst to the end of our relationship.
	Um, it was drinking months now that we've been broken up, um, and he has tried to get back together.
	Um, we do still talk quite often, um, but I'm I'm I'm not trying to pat myself on the back about this, uh, but I am doing my best to separate myself from him.
	There's an element of um too much comfortability there where he knows I'll do domestic things for him.
	Well, like alcohol is a substitute for foods, right?
	It's fair, okay, yeah.
	All right, so what do you want out of your life going forward?
	Where would you like to be when you're 40?
	What would you, what would be the ideal life for you?
	I, I, this is not meant to be a cop-out.
	I don't, I don't know.
	I'm still very um confused about what to do with myself, if I'm being honest.
	Um, just because I spent my entirety of my youth wanting to be married.
	Um, and uh holding a job, paying bills, like doing things for myself like that.
	I don't mean to sound like a child, but they just it's still something that I'm trying to like wrap my head around.
	Um, what do you mean it feels kind of overwhelming?
	Um, I lived at home until I got married with my mom.
	Um, I worked, but I just paid like my car insurance and for my personal items.
	You know, I didn't have like rent or bills or anything like that.
	Um, now that I've broken up with the ex-boyfriend, I live in, I live on my own.
	Um, I have my own bills.
	This is my first time in my entire life living by myself.
	Um, so I, at the moment, I'm feeling a little overwhelmed by life in and of itself.
	So, I still that's a female word that men have trouble with.
	So, uh, help me understand what you mean by overwhelmed.
	Do you mean like you don't have enough money to pay your bills?
	Yeah, that's part one.
	Okay.
	But that's, I don't want to say that's minor because my mom's listening.
	That's a minimal aspect of it.
	I think it, I guess it's like being 18 for the first time.
	Like, like you have to do everything by yourself, and it's kind of daunting.
	It's a little nerve-wracking.
	I don't mind it.
	I like it.
	I like the challenge, but I also am this was not the original plan.
	A 18-year-old me would turn my nose up at what I'm living like now because this was not how things were supposed to go.
	I turn your nose up.
	Is that because you're not living in a particularly nice place or you're not making much money?
	Or what would your 18-year-old self turn her nose up at?
	The fact that I am single and doing things on my own without a man helping me.
	That's that's what I thought life was.
	I thought that you get married and you do nice things for a man.
	Well, yeah, that is what.
	I mean, you're supposed to be married.
	You're supposed to be partnered.
	You're not supposed to be doing it alone.
	Okay.
	That's how we're designed.
	We're pair bonded, right?
	Is that this sucks?
	It is.
	It's horrible.
	I hate it.
	I hate it.
	So, so I, so when I moved to where I am now, I was here for March, April, May.
	I was here for three months and I could not find a job.
	I was applying for every secretary, receptionist, administration, like whatever position.
	I could not get a job.
	And so I finally got a job at a hardware store.
	Right.
	Doing like.
	Oh, I know.
	I've done hardware store work.
	So yeah, I get it.
	Yeah.
	And it was awful.
	And there would be days where I would just cry because it was, it's to me, it's like the antithesis of what I wanted.
	Like, this is not what I'm supposed to be doing.
	The heaviest thing I should lift is a bag of flour.
	Like, why?
	Well, ideally, a baby, but okay.
	Oh, okay.
	Or a baby.
	Fair.
	A baby.
	That is fair.
	A toddler.
	Yes.
	That is true.
	And so it's just, I think sometimes those days really get to me where I just am so confused as to how I tried to curate my life for this traditional lifestyle and how I ended up here.
	And I understand how I ended up here.
	I'm not blaming it on anybody else.
	It's my fault.
	But no, no, hang on.
	Let's be fair, right?
	I mean, you were raised badly.
	I mean, unless that's an unfair statement.
	I don't know.
	That was probably the hardest part about our conversation last time is that I didn't know how to feel about some of the things you said about my mom.
	Not that I couldn't see objectively the logic in what you were saying, just that I care about her.
	I think she cares about me.
	And one of the things that you said was that I hadn't had anyone love me in my whole life.
	And I'll admit honestly that out of everything we talked about, that's probably the one thing that I still don't know that I understand.
	Well, I could be wrong, of course, right?
	Always, always more than a possibility.
	Always more than a possibility sort of I hedge things, right?
	And say, well, this is my thought or whatever.
	Okay.
	So Why do you think you haven't gotten what you wanted in life and in your mid-30s, you're single working minimum wage or close to it at a job you don't enjoy with no particular prospects?
	Why do you think your life has turned out this way?
	I guess I'm like everybody else and I always blame outside factors like the world.
	Like, oh, society has ruined everything and feminism, this, that, and the other.
	Um, yeah, but the purpose of identifying those things is you can avoid them, right?
	Right.
	I mean, if if the if the guy who's sailing the ship says, oh, yeah, there's these rocks over there and there are these rocks over there, and then he goes and hits those rocks, it's like, no, no, the point of knowing those rocks is to avoid them.
	Okay, so from that perspective, this is a good conversation to have.
	My mindset has been that I felt fortunate that I recognized that feminism wasn't going to serve me and I tried to separate myself from it.
	But if feminism is a construct that's been society, is there really space for me to avoid it?
	I'm not sure what you mean, space to avoid.
	And this is very abstract regarding as to why your life.
	So feminism is like in the air or fair.
	Like sunlight on the beach.
	How do I avoid it?
	I mean, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to mock.
	I'm trying to understand.
	I get it.
	It's dust particles in the wind.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So where I live right now is a super small town.
	It's like the smallest town I've probably ever lived in.
	Everyone here, they are so sweet and kind.
	And you can tell that they immediately recognize like someone that's just being nice.
	And I've never experienced that before.
	If I had lived somewhere like here my whole life, I feel like I would have had a quality, productive marriage because people here seem innocent and like just normal and not like they're chasing particular things.
	I think that's what so you're so Bob's family is a real exception in that they're kind of miserable and you said dramatic and dysfunctional and so on, right?
	So in the town, Bob's family is a real outlier because everybody's kind of stable and normal, but they're way off that track.
	Bob's, yes, Bob's family is the kind of family where if you mention their last name, people are like, oh, them.
	Right.
	Okay.
	They're the Hatfields and the McCoy's.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Okay.
	So you chose the guy from the bad family when there's tons of good families around.
	Well, I didn't know.
	And I've never been here before.
	So I didn't know it was like that.
	That was if.
	Sorry, but you knew that Bob was dysfunctional.
	I did know Bob was dysfunctional.
	That's very.
	Okay.
	So you knew that Bob was dysfunctional and you moved in with him.
	Yeah, yeah, that's fair.
	Okay, so help me understand that.
	I mean, you knew the guy for 15 years.
	I get it.
	I hate, I hate getting older because I hate that the answers I'm about to give you sound like things I've heard from other people that are stupid.
	So.
	Okay, listen, we all have that experience.
	So don't feel bad about it.
	I do, you do.
	Everybody does, right?
	Okay, but tell me the answers.
	Okay, so the answer is that, like you already said, I figured that all he needed was a nice girl in his life and then everything will be fine.
	Okay, so if you get together with him and you clean his place and you drink with him and you let him go to the rubband tugs, he's going to be fine.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Where does that idea come from, do you think?
	I think I have probably unhealthy.
	No, no, no, no, don't, don't.
	Don't give me, don't give me psycho talk.
	I mean, psychological talk, not psychological talk.
	No, so where does this idea come from that you have the magic, you know, heart hugs and vagina that that heals broken men?
	And like, where does this, where does this come from?
	That's a good question.
	I don't know.
	It's not empirical, right?
	Because you, have you ever seen it work?
	No, it has not worked yet.
	So you've never seen it work.
	It has failed to work every time in your life.
	So this is like communism, right?
	This is like, it never works, but I'm still going to do it, right?
	So where does it come from?
	Where does the idea come from that's so embedded that, you know, 20 years of dating has, and then failing every time, has you've never been able to shake this idea.
	So where does it come from?
	Doesn't come from your life, doesn't come from your experience.
	So where does it come from?
	I guess it comes from, I don't, I don't know.
	I'm sure a lot of it is my own imagination.
	And then the other portion of it is the fact that when you're initially dating guys, a lot of the times, in my experience, they will recognize certain personality traits or characteristics or whatever.
	And they'll say, like, oh, I could really use that.
	That could be really helpful.
	Like, I've always wanted to date a girl like this or that or the other.
	And so it's like, okay, on the front end, it seems like we're on the same page that my personality and your personality can come together and make us better people.
	Okay.
	Where does it come from?
	I love the essay, but where does it come from?
	This idea that you can take seriously broken men, be a good girlfriend, and make them wonderful.
	Where does it come from?
	I mean, did you watch too many Beauty and the Beast shows when you were a kid?
	Or like, no, where does it come from?
	Yep, that is almost offensive.
	That's my favorite movie.
	I know.
	You're living it.
	Except you're getting the real ending, which is the beast goes back to the rubber tugs.
	I don't know.
	If someone is telling you that they want to change their life and they want their life to get better, are you not supposed to be optimistic about the potential of that?
	Okay.
	Why did you not get raised?
	I mean, honestly, you sort of have the survival instincts of your average Kamikasi pilot because a guy is beaten on you once or twice a month.
	You don't feel any fear.
	And then guys say, I want to get better.
	And you're like, great.
	As if guys don't lie.
	Do you disagree that you should take people relatively at face value until they show you that you shouldn't?
	Okay, I'm certainly happy.
	That's a great, that's a great question.
	And, you know, it's funny because I actually mildly, I get mildly annoyed when people say, that's a great question.
	Like all the other questions haven't been great, but all these questions have been great.
	So tell me what you mean by that.
	I mean, that, like, I would like to hope that people are good people and that they have good intentions.
	And if they're saying the things that sound right, I want to take them at just that and go into it with that mindset and then work from there.
	That's what I like to do with people.
	I like to just hope, like, okay, I'm trying to be a decent person.
	You're trying to be a decent person.
	Let's try that together.
	If it doesn't work out, then I got to get rid of you.
	But, but hopefully, we're going to, you know, go down this road, this path together.
	It's going to be great.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, that's a significant amount of optimism.
	And listen, I mean, I'm not a cynic.
	I get that you've got to have hope for people in this life.
	And I get all of that.
	But where did you think this significant amount of optimism, where did that come from?
	Watching the Disney movies.
	I don't know.
	I'm sorry, Fanny.
	I really don't know.
	My mom's not like that at all.
	So I can't even, I don't know.
	So your mom said that you shouldn't marry the guy you married.
	She said Bob is a survivor of serious untreated abuse and so on.
	And so your mother counseled you against these relationships.
	No, we talked about that before.
	She didn't know enough, in my opinion, for her to counsel me against the marriage.
	No, but hang on, hang on.
	I'm a parent.
	So that doesn't mean I'm right.
	It just means I have some experience in this.
	So did she ask you and you lied?
	Or she didn't ask?
	Like what these guys were like to get the facts.
	When it comes to the marriage in particular, I lied.
	Okay.
	So you lied and you said he's not who he is, right?
	She did not know about anything with regards to the BDSM aspect of the relationship or the controlling or any of that.
	She didn't know about any of that until after the marriage was deteriorating.
	Okay.
	So you're going to get married to your husband back in the sort of three-month whirlwind courtship.
	So you're going to get married to your husband?
	Yes.
	And what happened when your mother talked with him and, you know, grilled him and cross-examined him because he's going to be, you know, hopefully the husband to her daughter, the father to her grandchildren, and so on.
	So she's got to vet him, right?
	She trusted me on that end that I had already done most of that work.
	And so she said.
	No, Sorry, sorry, sorry.
	I hate to be annoying.
	I really do.
	But there's absolutely no freaking chance that you can vet someone if you're infatuated.
	You can't vet someone in three months.
	That's the parents' job.
	I understand.
	Okay.
	So what happened?
	So your mother didn't talk to him really before you got married?
	No.
	One time.
	They had one conversation.
	Okay.
	So you lied to your mother?
	Yes.
	Which meant you knew he was not the greatest guy.
	I mean, yes, obviously, because of where we met and some of the parameters of our relationship, then yes, I knew that there would be elements about him that a good mother would be concerned about.
	Okay.
	So you lied to her because you knew he wasn't a great guy.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So why did you lie to your mother?
	I mean, I know the practical reason, which is that if you told her the truth, she probably would have locked you at a fucking convent.
	Because I thought I knew better.
	I thought I knew best.
	Okay, so why don't you?
	And again, I'm just asking questions here, right?
	So why don't you respect your mother?
	Because if your mother gave you good and helpful advice, right?
	Like if your father was an accountant and you had trouble with your books, you'd go to your father, right?
	Because he'd sit down and say, okay, here's what I think you need to do.
	And, right, this is the best approach.
	And, right, if your father was an oncologist and, you know, Bob's father is sick and, you know, you get your father to look over the files, I hope.
	And if it was legal for him to do so, you know, give some feedback and I think this is the right protocol or I think this needs to change.
	So if your mother was helpful, you'd go to her for advice, wouldn't you?
	Yes.
	And this is not me trying to placate my mother.
	She is helpful.
	She's just different than me.
	And so there are times where I will purposely avoid getting her help because we're not.
	Everyone's different from everyone.
	That doesn't mean anything.
	So remind me of your mother's marriage.
	She's married twice and they were both sort of just like the guy was willing to marry her, in my opinion.
	Sorry.
	And so she married them.
	And the guy was willing to marry her, so she married him.
	Okay.
	So she didn't have any particular passion or affection for these guys.
	Didn't seem like it.
	Okay.
	So I'm not sure.
	So she's in a cold marriages, and you've now lived with two cold men.
	Yes, that's fair.
	Okay.
	So do you understand that pattern, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So if your mother has made mistakes, as we all have, right?
	Everybody has.
	So, you know, please understand, again, I'm not some super buff guy saying you need to do sit-ups, right?
	I've made my mistakes and so on.
	Now, what I've tried to do is I've tried to, let me not talk about myself, talk about your mother.
	And she's welcome to call me up and tell me how wrong I am.
	That's no problem if I'm getting things wrong, right?
	So with regards to your mother, she made mistakes.
	Did her second marriage last?
	No, no, my father was an alcoholic.
	So he was absent for a good bit of the marriage.
	Okay.
	And did your does your mother have any substance abuse issues?
	No.
	Okay.
	Maybe codependence, but whatever.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So your mother chose poorly.
	And does your mother know why she?
	I mean, you've had those conversations where she says, here's why I chose poorly so that you can avoid making these same decisions.
	She's more of the type to just tell you honestly what happened and kind of let you figure it out from there.
	So I would say.
	Sorry, what do you mean, figure it out from there?
	She said, my marriages didn't work out.
	No offense to my mom, but she analyzing and no, just understand.
	It's not understanding.
	No, if your father's a mechanic and you bring your car over that's not working, right?
	And he says, yeah, figure it out for yourself.
	Would that make any sense?
	No, I don't know.
	Right.
	So he's supposed to help you based upon his experience and knowledge.
	And your mother has years and years and years of experience making bad dating and marriage decisions.
	So she's supposed to help you avoid those decisions.
	She's going to agree with you.
	I already know she's going to be like, no, he's right.
	But that's not something she's good at.
	She will tell you.
	I don't care whether she's good at it or not.
	That's immaterial.
	I know.
	I'm not sure.
	No, seriously, it's immaterial.
	If you become a parent, you have to do it.
	Oh, I'm not particularly, you know, I'm not great at getting up at night.
	I'm just, you know, I'm tired the next day.
	So I'm just going to let my baby cry and die.
	Sorry, to use an extreme example.
	But who cares whether you're good at it or not?
	I am.
	You have to do it.
	No, I get it.
	I get it.
	I get it.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, no, she gave me raw factual information.
	Your father was an alcoholic.
	He was cold.
	It didn't work out.
	He left.
	Boom, done.
	Yeah, sure.
	Yeah.
	And her mindset is that, you know, with that, then you can, you know, collate your own choices.
	What?
	Okay, you know that this set, you know how silly this sounds, right?
	And I'm not calling you silly.
	I'm just saying that this level of avoidance, it's not, I can hear you not believing yourself as you're saying it, right?
	No, I'm laughing because it's funny when I say it out loud, it's like, all right, no, that's wrong.
	It shouldn't be like that.
	But I also know her, I guess, so there's a bit of sympathy.
	And so it's like, okay, I know how my mom is.
	And I know that her mindset was, if I give her the facts, she probably will find some sort of intellectual resource to figure them out.
	But I don't know how to process them myself.
	No, no, but it's not your job to do that.
	It's your mother's job to do that.
	Your mother chose, I mean, when did your father and mother split up?
	I think 95.
	So five years after I was born.
	I'm sorry?
	I think about five years after I was born.
	Okay.
	And do you know why they split up?
	I think the alcoholism was so bad that he just, he wasn't even in the home.
	Okay.
	So when did you first start having problems with alcohol?
	I guess probably when I was like 24, 25, 24.
	And did your mother warn you about the dangers of alcohol when you were growing up?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And so why didn't you listen to her?
	I'm trying to understand why you, if you say you love your mother, then love is credibility.
	Love is when you respect people's confidence and competence.
	So if your mother says, listen, you inherited not just an environment of alcoholism, but you inherited genetic susceptibility to alcoholism.
	Like you can't do it.
	It's not even a choice.
	Like you can't do it.
	It's way too risky.
	It's a Russian roulette.
	I'm not kidding every time because you have the genetics for alcoholism, which has genetic elements to it.
	So you can't drink because genetically, it's going to take you down with quite a high degree of likelihood.
	You're like, you know, there are some people who have genetic susceptibility to certain kind of cancers, right?
	And you can't engage in those whatever risky behaviors, right?
	If you have a genetic susceptibility to lung cancer, let's say half the people, half the women in your family died of lung cancer even though they didn't smoke, you can't smoke.
	Like it's not even a choice.
	Like you can't.
	It's worse than drunk driving.
	So did your, did your mother, what did she say?
	Oh, it's bad or it's like, did she say like, you can't touch alcohol?
	Like, I'm sorry.
	And that's because I chose a guy who's an alcoholic and it destroyed his life.
	And I couldn't watch you do that.
	I couldn't, I couldn't watch that happen.
	Like, we are a family, or you are an offspring of an alcoholic.
	can't touch alcohol no i hope i'm not offending my mom or saying the wrong thing by saying this but my mom's more of the type to kind of mention things here and there on the front end and then let them go because i think she probably thinks to some degree that if you don't talk about it too much
	hopefully it doesn't even come back up.
	Okay, so she's been trying that as a parenting strategy for 34 plus years, right?
	I will say that in my 20s and 30s, no, it's a constant conversation.
	But in my early age, it was not a constant conversation.
	Sorry, what's a constant conversation in your 20s and 30s?
	The alcohol or the avoidance of alcohol.
	It was not a constant conversation.
	It was more just like a, hey, you know, when this comes around, you need to stay away from it.
	Okay, so she very much poured on the emphasis on not drinking when you were in your 20s and 30s.
	Okay, so she's capable of being more emphatic about what you need to do.
	Oh, for sure.
	Okay.
	No.
	So then she's responsible for everything she's not emphatic about.
	So why did she choose your father?
	I really don't know.
	The way she describes it, it sounds like she was having a rough time in life.
	He was being nice to her.
	A bad church.
	Right.
	So she was having a rough time in life and he was being nice to her.
	The church was like a child.
	Like when you're just separating from your husband and some guy's being nice to you.
	Yeah, kind of like that.
	Okay, so does she...
	Sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	Go ahead.
	It was kind of like a culty sort of church.
	And so she was doing some things that in hindsight she would not have done.
	And so they basically set her up with my dad.
	But this was her second marriage, right?
	So she wasn't a kid anymore.
	No, no, she was 26, 28, something like that.
	Okay.
	But yeah, I don't know why she picked him.
	There's definitely no romantic aspect to the story behind my mother and my father.
	Okay.
	So you don't know why your mother made one of the most significantly bad choices in her life.
	So how are you supposed to avoid it?
	Mindfulness.
	By what?
	Mindfulness?
	Okay, again, please stay off the psychology babble stuff because I don't know what any of that means.
	No, but seriously, how are you supposed to avoid a terrible decision if your mother has never even told you how she made a terrible decision?
	Because the whole point of parenthood is to not pick up the pieces, but prevent them from breaking.
	Right.
	So if your mother made two bad decisions on who to marry, has she had any boyfriends since her second marriage?
	No.
	She had a repeat boyfriend, like someone she dated when she was younger.
	She dated again for a little bit.
	Oh, no.
	Please, you're killing me.
	I know, I know.
	I'm sorry.
	No, no, why is that killing me?
	Well, it seems to be a pattern.
	What you did.
	Okay.
	So she dated a guy when she was younger.
	She got back together with him and they were older after her second marriage, after she separated, and it didn't work out, right?
	Yeah.
	So she's responsible for helping you avoid repeating the patterns.
	That's her job.
	No, I agree with you, Hira.
	Okay, so why isn't she doing her job?
	Okay, so because I think she's nervous.
	I think she feels like she's made so many bad decisions.
	I think a lot of times she feels weary or apprehensive about giving me advice about my decisions because she feels like all of hers were bad too.
	Right.
	So I'm not sure why feeling weary or somewhat avoidant.
	I'm not sure why that's an excuse.
	I'm not saying it's an excuse.
	She should still try to advise me, and she does in some respects.
	Like, my mom is very good with her finances.
	So, that's one thing she is comfortable advising me about.
	You're broke!
	I am broke.
	She's not, though.
	Yeah, but if she's good at, oh, I'm broke.
	Well, I'm broke because of complications, right?
	No, is that not right?
	No, you're broke because your mother doesn't give you good advice.
	I know.
	That's not, I feel like that's not fair at all about finances.
	My mom probably gives me the best financial advice.
	I just don't listen to her.
	No, because one of the reasons, one of the main reasons you're broke is because of a bad marriage.
	Is that fair to say?
	Like, if I choose to marry somebody and be a housewife for five years, is it fair to say that I'm broke because I tried to have because if you chose the right guy, you'd be a mom with two or three babies and you'd be paying the bills and you wouldn't be broke.
	Isn't that what your uterus is saying to you when you go to the fucking hardware store?
	No babies here.
	No husband paying my bills here.
	You're broke because you married wrong.
	And your mother has a lot to do with you marrying wrong.
	Because she's supposed to warn you against the bad decisions that she made.
	I understand.
	And that's what I mean when I say, look, I'm not saying your mother's some terrible person.
	I don't know her at all.
	But what I would say is that if you are repeating the mistakes that your mother made and she's in your life as intimately as she seems to be, then she has significant responsibility in that.
	And if she's like, well, you know, I feel a little uncomfortable with this.
	I'm not sure I have much credibility, blah, then she's putting her discomfort above protecting you.
	And that's kind of selfish.
	I'll be frank with you.
	Because you're supposed to do what's best for your kids, no matter how uncomfortable it is for you.
	And if you're like, okay, so I chose a terrible, raging alcoholic to be the father of my daughter.
	That was a very bad decision, which caused immense suffering for my daughter and set her up for dysfunctional relationships with men.
	Because if your mother has a highly toxic relationship with your father, and alcoholism is one of the worst toxins, then that is setting you up for bad relationships with men.
	Does that make sense, right?
	Yes, it does.
	And is that playing out?
	That's playing out negatively.
	Well, yeah, it is.
	And for that, I have great sympathy, of course, right?
	But it is your mother's job, if she's chosen two bad husbands, it is her primary job to learn those lessons, teach you those lessons so that you don't choose bad husbands.
	So given that she is somebody who chose two bad husbands, when you say, oh, I've met this great guy online, we're getting married, what does she do?
	What should she do?
	I mean, I get where you're coming from.
	No matter what, she should be skeptical, even if I'm happy.
	What should she do?
	Not her state of mind.
	She should be in investigating and asking questions and trying to okay.
	And if she suspects that you're not being upfront because you're young and maybe the guy was really hot and you're kind of all hormonal and irrational, maybe, which we all, which we all have, right?
	But what should she do?
	Be harsh with me, be honest with me, be no, because she suspects that you're not telling the truth.
	So what should she do?
	I don't know.
	I can't answer it.
	Right.
	And maybe this is the difference between men and women.
	I can tell you what I would do.
	What would you do?
	I would call the guy and I would say, okay, so you want to marry my daughter?
	That's great.
	And I would fly out and meet with the family and investigate the shit out of them.
	I'd cross-examine them.
	I'd see if they could take criticism.
	I'd see if they could take feedback.
	I could see if there were vanity issues.
	I could ask about any substance abuse issues.
	I'd vet because I care.
	And myself, if I've been through two bad marriages and two ugly divorces or whatever happened, I would absolutely want to make sure my daughter never tasted of that endless bit of fruit.
	So I would fly the fuck out and I would cross-examine.
	And I would take care of my daughter and I would do what was right and necessary to make sure my daughter wasn't making the same bad decisions that I made.
	That's what I mean by caring.
	I have a question.
	What do I owe to my mom?
	No, You're jumping out of what I'm saying.
	Don't try and lead me down the road.
	This may work with drunken small town boys.
	Not going to work with me.
	All right.
	So tell me what.
	When I point that out, as that to me, that's basic parenting.
	You have to vet.
	Especially the guys you don't know.
	You don't know their family.
	It's an online relationship.
	Like, it's got potential disaster written all over it, right?
	Yeah, that's fair.
	So if your mother and look, I'm not saying she doesn't care about you.
	I know.
	But I'm just telling you, when I say you haven't been deeply loved, it means that people step out of their comfort zone in order to help you with the most important decision you're ever going to make in your life, which is who you marry.
	And if she's just like, I talked with him once, good luck.
	I don't think that's real love.
	I don't think that's deep love.
	Deep love towards your children is protecting them.
	And to fly out and spend a couple of days with the family that wants to join with your family, because you're not just marrying him, you're marrying the whole family, which means your mother has a whole new family.
	Right?
	I mean, so I'll admit that because of the nuances of how the marriage was started, I disregarded a lot of those things because we met online, because we said, like, hey, I need this and I need this.
	And can we provide that for one another?
	And maybe let's get married if we can commit to that.
	I mean, essentially, I arranged my own marriage.
	I don't hold anybody involved to the same standards of a traditional marriage.
	Okay, I don't know what any of that means.
	I'm just curious why your mother didn't fly out and meet the family that you were marrying into.
	And that's it.
	Okay, so it means in a sense that I, because I looked for him online, because I put up an ad looking for him.
	No, no, sorry.
	You think she needs to go through you?
	Why?
	Why would she?
	She had his phone number, or she could ask for his phone number or his email, and she could say, Oh, it looks like our kids might be marrying.
	I'm coming out, and let's spend some time together and get to know each other.
	Do you think that I would let my daughter, not that let, but you think that I would be fine with my daughter marrying into a family?
	I'd never even met them.
	It's fair when you put it like that.
	I can't disagree with you.
	Okay, so help me understand this.
	I mean, I didn't even meet his mom before I married him.
	Okay, we're not talking about you.
	We're talking about your mom.
	I get where you're coming from.
	I guess this is a point where it's hard for me to be objective because I guess I look at my mom's decision-making process through my own eyes and what I'm comfortable with her doing, not what you're doing.
	No, but you need to know.
	But see, this is fusion, right?
	So, every time I talk about your mom, you answer like it's you, which means that there's not differentiation, right?
	So, I'm talking about your mother as a sovereign individual who existed decades before you were born, who has her own choices independent of what you like or want in the moment.
	So, if your mom had called you up and said, Oh, yeah, listen, thanks for this guy's email.
	I'm flying out to meet his family.
	Maybe you can join us.
	I'd be happy to pay for that because I'm very good with my finances.
	So, it's scheduled for a week from now.
	And can you get the time?
	What would you have said?
	I would have said, awesome.
	Awesome.
	So, you and your mother would have flown out to meet his family, right?
	Yeah, I think that sounds great.
	Okay.
	And what do you think would have happened over the course of that visit if it hadn't just been pleasant and convivial nonsense like, oh, what a lovely garden you have, or whatever nonsense, right?
	But so, if your mother had asked sort of the tough questions, like, what's his dating history?
	Why is he single?
	Does he have any substance abuse issues?
	Does he have any dysfunctions that you know of?
	Like the basic vetting stuff, right?
	How would that have gone with your ex-husband's family?
	I think it would have been awful.
	Okay, so they would have blown up, they would have got offended and upset and angry, like whatever, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Okay, so that would have been your answer: don't marry into this family, they're volatile and dysfunctional.
	So she could have saved you from all of this in like a couple of days, maybe even one night.
	Okay.
	Yeah, you're right.
	That's true.
	So, when I say that that would be love, I mean, if you disagree with that, I mean, it's a couple of days out of your mother's life to save you from five years of being assaulted.
	I guess I didn't.
	It's stupid for me to say I didn't think about it like that.
	No, no, you didn't.
	And it's not stupid.
	You're not stupid.
	Please stop saying that because you're not stupid.
	We all have our blind spots, and that's why we need conversations, right?
	Right, you're right.
	So, when I say real love would look like that, rather than, oh, I don't know anything about this man.
	I don't know anything about his family, but off you go and get married.
	You're right.
	Especially when she's made the exact same bad decisions that you made, watching you make the same bad decisions that she made is not only not love, I view that as a form of sabotage.
	I'm not saying it's conscious, I'm not saying it's like she's rubbing her hands together in evil glee or anything like that.
	But if she stands passively by watching you make twice now exactly the same bad decisions that she made, that's not good parenting.
	That's not love.
	I'm not saying she doesn't have any affection or caring for you at all, but as far as that goes, right?
	If I lost my life savings to some Nigerian prince email scam, and then my daughter calls me up, or my son, if I had one, calls me up and says, Hey, Dad, it's really cool.
	I'm going to make a lot of money from this Nigerian prince.
	And I'm like, yeah, sounds good.
	Would that be comprehensible to you at all?
	No.
	No, that would be awful.
	I'd be like, oh my God, don't do that.
	I lost my life savings for that scam.
	Or if I lost my life savings in some online email phishing scam or something, right?
	Then the moment my kids were old enough to go online, I'd sit them down for about four weeks straight and tell them all about how to be safe and careful.
	Because I'd need them to learn from my mistakes.
	Now, if this is part of, again, sort of what I'm saying about your mom is that if I lost my life savings to a Nigerian prince email scam and then my kids also lost their life savings, I'd be so racked with guilt, I wouldn't know what to do.
	And your mother had two bad significant relationships.
	You've had two bad, significant relationships on her watch with her additional decades of knowledge and experience.
	Has she ever said, I feel so bad for not doing more to protect you from these bad relationships?
	Because I know I knew long before you were born how bad they could be.
	Maybe not exactly like that, but yeah, I do think she said that.
	That's very vague.
	Of course.
	Okay, the other thing, when I say, has she said anything like this, and you say, well, it's not exactly like that.
	Of course, it's not exactly like that.
	I get that.
	She has expressed frustration or disappointment with the fact that she was not better equipped as a mom, better equipped as a better equipped as a mom.
	What does that mean?
	Better equipped as a mentor to guide me through the difficult parts of life.
	Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt.
	I don't know what that means.
	It's just a choice.
	I made bad decisions.
	I need to review why I made those bad decisions and teach my children how to avoid them.
	I'm not sure what that means by equipped.
	Equipped sounds like you were sent into the army, you were sent into battle, sort of on the Russian front without any weapons.
	I mean, it's a choice.
	I'm not sure what equipped means.
	How I'm not, I'm not trying to take us down a rabbit hole, but how do you feel about the fact that parents are grown-up kids that are doing something new to them as well?
	Because I feel like I'm trying to be sympathetic to the fact that she hasn't had these experiences before.
	Sorry, what experiences?
	As a parent.
	No, but what experiences?
	I don't know what you mean.
	Your kids doing stupid stuff.
	Your kids doing things that you've got to figure out that you've never done before.
	I think that's probably one of the things that bugs my mom the most.
	Okay, let me ask you this: did you ever fall down when you were learning to ride a bike?
	Yeah, I would think so, yeah.
	Okay, fine.
	So when you teach your kids how to ride a bike, do you do it on gravel, concrete, or grass?
	I think typically maybe there's a mixture of all of those.
	No, no, when you're first teaching them.
	First teaching them?
	I think most parents start the kids out on a sidewalk.
	No, you start them out on grass.
	Okay, I don't know.
	Do you know why?
	So if they fall, it's not so bad?
	No, not if they fall.
	They will fall.
	Okay, sorry.
	When they fall, it's not so bad.
	Right, because if they fall and they land on gravel, then they're going to get gravel bits stuck in their wounds.
	You might have to go to the hospital, right?
	Okay.
	So you don't teach them on highly dangerous substances, right?
	If your child is learning how to walk, do you teach them how to walk on concrete or on soft carpeting?
	Soft carpeting.
	Right.
	Because if they fall, blah, blah, blah, right?
	So you learned how to ride a bike and you fell, as did I, as does everybody who learns how to ride a bike, except maybe some freaky Jackie Chan style people.
	But so everyone falls.
	So as a parent, you know, well, gee, I know that riding a bike is bad, so I'm going to make sure that, like, starting to ride a bike is a lot of falling.
	So I'm going to make sure that my kid rides a bike on a soft surface.
	And then, you know, eventually they'll move on.
	And, you know, maybe they'll fall once or twice on concrete, but that's mostly because they're pushing the envelope, which is their choice, right?
	Nothing's more exciting as a parent than seeing your kid whiz down a road without their hands on the handlebars.
	It's very exciting.
	But so as a parent, you know, we've all fallen off a bike, so you remember that and you try to protect your kids from falling off a bike onto something hard.
	So if your mother has made bad decisions on who to marry, then she needs to help you make better decisions on who to marry.
	That's right.
	That's the job.
	You have to learn from your mistakes.
	And like if my mother had taught me how to ride a bike on gravel and I had fallen on gravel and got a bunch of little rocks stuck in my knee and had to go and get them picked out by tweezers at a hospital, then I for sure would not have my child learn on gravel because I'd remember how bad that was, right?
	No, that's understandable.
	I understand where you're coming from.
	Okay.
	So why didn't your mother help you avoid the disasters that she made in marriage?
	We talked a good bit about things like that during various parts of my childhood.
	And I'm confident that my mom felt like her choices were so wrong that she did not have anything to input.
	That is one place my mom has never really guided me or no, no, she has to.
	It's not a choice.
	It's not a choice.
	I'm not trying to be mean to her.
	Once again, she's going to listen to this, but she's never really interjected in my dating life.
	So she made terrible decisions and exposed you to the direct results of those terrible decisions by having a raging alcoholic be your father for the first five plus years of your life.
	And did he stay in your life after that?
	No, for the most part, we talk maybe every one or two years.
	Okay, so he's not part of your life at all.
	So he just despawned, right?
	He just vaporized, as far as your perspective was as a kid, right?
	He said he despawned.
	Despawned.
	Sorry, he just vanished.
	He did despawn.
	Okay.
	So did your mother.
	How did your mother explain the absence of your father in your life?
	That's a good question.
	I don't know that it was ever really explained until later on.
	Well, you must have known that you didn't have a father.
	He was there and then gone.
	I know it's five and a half.
	It's kind of young, but you must have been aware that you were growing up without a father, right?
	No, not really.
	Yes, you were aware because you knew there's such a thing as fathers.
	Your friends might have had some fathers and you didn't have one in the house.
	So you must have been aware that you were growing up without a father, right?
	Yes, I was aware, but I didn't know that that was a bad thing or that that was something that shouldn't be happening probably for quite a while.
	Okay, so your mother didn't sit down and talk to you about why you were growing up without a father.
	No, I do not remember.
	So tell me this.
	And this is really the most essential question.
	So what has your mother explained to you where she's been completely at fault?
	Her fault in her mind is that she entertained him at all because it was sort of like a recommendation, a wink, wink, nudge, nudge from the other members of the church.
	She feels like she should be.
	So she was encouraged to date him.
	Yeah.
	Okay, but that didn't mean, do you have siblings again?
	Yes, I have one brother.
	Okay, so that doesn't mean that you have to get married to a guy and give him two kids, right?
	So, so what, what has she, what has she taken responsibility for in her life that she did wrong?
	Um, I think she, oh my gosh, I'm sorry.
	I'm so sorry, mom.
	I think that she thinks the main thing she did wrong was that she was not a good wife.
	She was.
	Oh, so she, okay, so this is where the idea comes from.
	Now we know.
	No, now we know.
	I know, I know, but when I asked you where the idea came from, you didn't know.
	So the idea is that if she'd been a better wife, he wouldn't have been an alcoholic.
	I don't know about the alcohol part, but I definitely think she should.
	She divorced him for alcoholism.
	So if she'd been a better wife, he would have been a better husband.
	Yes, yeah.
	Okay.
	So this is, so she's transmitted to you the idea that you find dysfunctional guys and fix them and that your magic hugs and kisses and vagina and whatever, the cleaning and laundry is going to turn a severely disturbed man into a saint.
	I am confident that my mother did not intentionally instill those ideas.
	But yes, that is fair what you just said.
	Okay.
	And I can't read intention.
	That's female.
	Females love to read minds about intentions.
	Males don't do that because I don't care what the intention is.
	I only care what the outcome is.
	And so, okay, so what does your mother admit fault in what she chose?
	Because saying I should have been a better wife is not admitting fault because.
	Okay.
	So what has your mother admitted?
	And look, again, she's welcome to call me in and set me straight if we're getting things wrong in the conversation, right?
	But my concern is that your mother doesn't really admit fault and therefore you don't know how to self-correct.
	I would like to think that I do know how to self-correct, even with that fact.
	So no, she feels like her problems in that marriage were the fact that she entertained him without having any standards for him.
	I think that's it, if I'm being honest.
	So she entertained, so I mean, She put him up as a potential suitor, and that was her only mistake.
	I, yes, um, to my knowledge, the church recommended that she date my dad.
	I don't care, I don't honestly, I don't care because she's she was this is her second marriage, so she already had experience and she was not a kid.
	Okay, you said 26, 27, right?
	Yeah, it's like somewhere between 26 and 28, I'm pretty sure.
	Okay, so she's been a full-on adult for almost a decade, and she's already had a bad marriage, so she's responsible for choosing better.
	So, you see, she deflects, okay.
	And because she doesn't take responsibility for her bad decisions, she can't help you avoid yours, and that's dangerous.
	And look, I'm again, I'm not saying she's some monster or some terrible person, but what I'm saying is that if at 34 you're single, broke, overweight, and an alcoholic, or at least a social alcoholic, that has something to do with your mother.
	Something, not everything, but something.
	That seems fair.
	I don't, I don't.
	And if you don't identify that your mother sometimes, and this is the temptation for all parents, so I'm not going to throw her under the bus in some huge way, but your mother will sometimes choose what's best for her over what's best for you.
	And when you have someone in your life who's truly devoted to you, they will choose what's best for you, no matter the discomfort for them.
	I would hesitate to say that my mom has chosen herself over me.
	I don't think that's true.
	Well, okay.
	So when you listen back to this, you have to listen to the number of times you've said, well, my mother didn't feel comfortable, or she didn't feel that she had any particular expertise, or she didn't feel, you know, she doesn't like that kind of talk, right?
	So that's choosing your own preferences over what's best for your child.
	I understand.
	That's fair.
	That's absolutely fair.
	So if you haven't had the experience of being truly loved, then how would you know it when it shows up?
	And how would you know the absence of it when it doesn't?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I don't know.
	And then that begs part of this conversation is that it makes dating so much harder.
	I feel like I don't, I don't know what I'm doing at all.
	Right.
	I feel like almost stupid to even think that I could date because I feel like I don't, I don't even understand the premise.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I mean, you're like somebody who wakes up on a yacht in the middle of the ocean.
	Like, which way do I go?
	I don't know.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I know.
	I know nothing.
	Yes.
	I am entirely just out in this vast, you know, ether of where do you.
	Okay, so your mother has been your mother is your primary family relationship.
	Is that right?
	How close are you to your brother?
	Not close at all.
	We don't.
	Do you have any adult male elders who give you advice?
	Who are not interested in something with me potentially that is not no, yeah, not the guys who want to have sex with you.
	I mean, adult males who you respect, maybe uncles or grandparents, or do you have any adult males who are giving you advice?
	Because men know about the dangers of men.
	And so we're pretty good at giving you good advice and teaching you to be skeptical of men who lie to get sex a lot of times, right?
	So, do you have any males, older males in your life, or even if they're not older, just males whose wisdom you respect who are giving you advice?
	No.
	Okay.
	Does your mother have any older males in her life who are giving her advice?
	No.
	Right.
	So you are without male wisdom and you are without your mother's devotion.
	And again, I'm not saying that she doesn't care about you at all, but I'm just saying that as a parent, you have to do what's best for your kids, no matter your discomfort.
	So if your mother is like, okay, gosh, you know, I've had, I've had two bad marriages, how's your brother's relationships as a whole?
	He was married once for 10 years.
	I don't know the specifics.
	He's very distant.
	He keeps to himself a lot.
	So he's single again.
	Yes, but I also for two years and my mother hasn't talked to him for almost probably about two years also.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah, he's opted out of the family entirely.
	And did he say why?
	No, we've never gotten along since adulthood.
	He's got some particular political opinions that we don't align with.
	And so it's a little messy.
	Like he's a communist?
	He's a black Israelite.
	Ah, okay.
	Okay.
	That might be a bit of a challenge.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So your mother raised children who don't have successful relationships.
	Yeah, that does seem to be our MO right now.
	And your mother didn't have successful relationships.
	That is also fair.
	Yes.
	So again, not to reiterate, but her job was to figure out why and transmit that to you.
	And everybody knows, like Dr. Phil's been on the air for like approximately 4,000 years, if I get this correctly.
	But, you know, this sort of Sally Jesse Raphael and Donahue and Oprah and Dr. Phil, like this sort of daytime TV self-knowledge, psychology, like the self-knowledge and psychology section of the average bookstore is only exceeded by the like minotaur seduction, weirdo, bestiality stuff that somehow gets women going in ways that is incomprehensible to even Satan himself.
	But so she would know about all of this kind of stuff, right?
	She would know that, you know, you got to teach your children to avoid the mistakes you've made.
	She's going to know that there are patterns in life that, you know, I mean, it was the child is the father of the man.
	Childhood affects adulthood in significant ways.
	Patterns learned in childhood tend to repeat.
	This has been known by artists for thousands of years and by social scientists for at least 275 years or whatever, right?
	So, and this is available to everyone on TV and in the library.
	You can go and pick up books on patterns.
	And I, oh, so I dated an alcoholic.
	What effect's that going to have on my children?
	Because that's just basic fucking good parenting.
	Are you saying that the man's genealogy has more impact on the child than the female's genealogy?
	What do you mean by genealogy?
	Like, so like hereditary impacts, like things that are passed down.
	Are you saying that the male's hereditary impact is greater on a child than the females?
	And I'm sorry if I missed something, and I'm not trying to be obstructionist.
	I'm not sure why we're talking about, I'm talking about self-knowledge.
	You're talking about genetics.
	I'm not sure why we switched from one to the other because your mother can't do anything about your genetics, right?
	I mean, other than who she chooses to marry, right?
	So if you have blue eyes, your mother can't talk you out of that.
	So I'm talking about the stuff that's under our free will after we've made the bad decisions.
	But if I missed something, I'm certainly happy to be corrected.
	You're okay.
	asking because if i'm not mistaken you said that a man has more impact on the the spawn than a woman does and so by no no no What I meant was, sorry if I was unclear.
	What I meant was that if you don't have access to male wisdom, elder male wisdom, then you're going to be more susceptible to smooth talking buttholes.
	Gotcha.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Because men know how to sniff out bad men.
	That's kind of what we do.
	We do that our whole lives.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Because when we're kids, if you are around another bad kid, you get beaten up or you get in trouble or you end up breaking into cars and you get a record.
	So we have to be very aware of bad boys, bad young men, bad.
	So we're scanning and we know we can identify, like wise men can identify.
	And so women who don't have access to elder male wisdom are much more likely.
	So to be susceptible to this.
	But what I'm talking about is your mother knew that her bad decisions were without correction, without correction, her bad decisions were going to replicate in the next generation.
	She knew that.
	Because everybody knows that in the West, because it's everywhere.
	Right.
	Patterns and family cycles and the cycle of dysfunction.
	Right.
	So everybody knows that if you choose a raging alcoholic to be the father of your child and you get divorced and this is your second bad marriage, that bad relationships are going to continue without significant intervention, right?
	That's true.
	Okay.
	So she knew that.
	And what did she do?
	Did she take the steps necessary to prevent a recurrence of her disasters in her children?
	No.
	Okay.
	So she's responsible for that.
	That's all I'm saying.
	I understand.
	Because if you can't give her responsibility, you just end up attacking yourself or blaming the men, and that doesn't help you prevent the next recurrence.
	You don't think it's insanely healthy to just attack yourself about everything?
	I feel that the answer is embedded in the nature of the question.
	So, no, but this is, and so when you give some responsibility to your mother, then you stop self-attacking to some degree.
	Now, again, you're 34, so and you've had access.
	How long have you listened to what I do?
	Gosh, what, since like 2015, I want to say at least, if not before.
	All right.
	So you've had access to the knowledge of these.
	You've heard, I mean, it's in a, listen, again, I want to just mention just my absolute appreciation for your openness here because having these kinds of conversations, particularly the ones that go in the public domain, is so insanely helpful for people.
	Like, you are massively helping the planet as a whole.
	And the fact that we have thousands of these conversations out there in the public domain is really wonderful.
	And I really do appreciate you opening up your heart and your life in this kind of way.
	So I just wanted to mention that because I don't think I expressed that enough, but I certainly should.
	So part of your disasters are the pattern of your mother.
	I'll be frank.
	And again, I could be totally wrong about your mom, but I'll just tell you my concern.
	My concern is that you serve men because you serve your mother.
	Because can you bring up criticisms?
	Okay, when was the last time you had a significant criticism of your mother?
	I mean, you're even uneasy in this conversation because she might listen, right?
	I mean, I do have criticisms of her.
	She knows that.
	Okay, so just tell me what was the last major criticism you brought up with your mother.
	Recently, we had a difficult conversation because I don't like how much control she wants to have over my schedule when I'm 34.
	Okay, that's not a major criticism.
	That's not a major criticism.
	I'm talking about a criticism of her as a parent, as she raised you.
	Outside of spanking, I don't probably think I've ever had a problem.
	So why?
	I mean, in this conversation, you've pushed back against me, which is great.
	I mean, this is exactly what you should be doing.
	If I get something wrong or I'm mischaracterizing something, you say, eh, that's not quite right.
	Right.
	So you can push back against me, which is great.
	That's natural and that's healthy.
	why can't you criticize your mother um i i guess it's an unhealthy relationship from the perspective that she helps me And so I don't know.
	If she helps you, why are you 34, single and broke?
	So if that's help, I don't know what hurting would be.
	So why can't you criticize your mother?
	Because she doesn't want you to.
	I don't think, I don't think that's true at all.
	I think that, okay, okay.
	My mom would be totally comfortable with criticism, aggressive criticism from me if I was living a life that she felt was irreputable.
	Oh my God.
	She's the parent.
	You're not applying for a job.
	You're not applying for a job as a gym trainer while being 40 pounds overweight.
	She's your parent.
	You don't have to magically produce a great life out of bad parenting.
	And I think there was bad parenting.
	I'm not saying it was all bad, but there was bad.
	You can't just say, well, as a parent, you can't say, well, I'll listen to any criticism from you as soon as your life is perfect.
	Is your mom's life perfect?
	No.
	She's sailing into old age completely alone.
	She's hanging on to you because she doesn't have a man.
	Stop.
	Oh, my God.
	And she can't take criticism.
	And the reason you don't criticize her is because I imagine she'll threaten the relationship if you do.
	No, no, no.
	Okay, then why not?
	Why do you attack yourself rather than criticize your mother?
	That's not fair.
	So much already.
	I feel like she's done so much already.
	I feel like she's tried her hardest already.
	I don't want to add to her.
	What does that mean?
	Tried her hardest.
	Did she ever go to therapy?
	No.
	Okay, so what do you mean tried her hardest?
	Going to therapy.
	Hey, why don't I choose two bad men?
	I need to figure that shit out so that my kids don't do the same stuff.
	Because she was busy being a mom.
	She was busy being a mom.
	That's why she couldn't go to therapy.
	Oh, please, really?
	Guys, come on.
	I knew you're.
	Come on.
	I mean, I appreciate the effort.
	I really do.
	I appreciate the effort.
	I really do.
	I don't know.
	I don't want her to.
	Okay, just don't tell me she did everything she could.
	Don't lie to me.
	You can lie to yourself, but don't try it with me.
	She didn't do everything she could.
	I don't even know what that means.
	I don't do everything I can.
	I don't even know what that means.
	That's just a sentimental piece of nonsense, so you don't criticize her.
	And it comes from her.
	That's right.
	She has needs to not be criticized.
	And it comes at your expense.
	I don't think a mistake and I see my daughter self-attacking for that mistake and I don't step in to intervene and say, that's not you, that's me.
	That's predatory.
	Okay, okay.
	I have to step in and take some accountability here.
	I think there's also an element where, think about it like this: if you're coming in late to work all the time and your boss doesn't say anything, you're also not going to criticize your boss on the things that they do that are wrong.
	And so it's the same thing with a parent.
	And so if I'm doing things that are wrong and my parent is doing things that are wrong, there's an element where we're playing this game where no one's going to mention the other person's wrongdoing.
	That's why you don't respect her.
	You don't view her as a mother.
	You've like a boss is a totally different relationship.
	You're both adults.
	He didn't raise you.
	He didn't instill values.
	He didn't inflict his bad choice and mates on you when you were five.
	It's a completely different relationship.
	And the fact that you would try and sneak your mom into a purely adult relationship means you don't even see her as a mother, which is why you don't take advice and why you don't criticize her.
	A boss is not a parent.
	It's totally different.
	I get the analogy, and I understand that analogies are imperfect, but this one isn't even close.
	If I saw a child of mine self-attacking for the effects to some degree of the decisions that I had made, right?
	What I would say is: listen, I don't want to see you self-attacking for the decisions that I've made.
	That's wrong.
	Let me ask you a question.
	Your wife is a psychologist, psychiatrist, or psychologist?
	She practiced psychology, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, with that being said, if you had a child and your child was exhibiting behaviors that were problematic, like let's say they were cutting themselves or picking their skin to the point of bleeding or something like that.
	What would you do?
	How would you handle that?
	I don't want to get into a theoretical about my family, which hasn't manifested.
	I just want to focus on your mother.
	Okay.
	I guess I'm asking from the perspective of that.
	I don't, I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with: they don't know how they're supposed to handle things.
	They struggle with.
	No, but you talk to an expert.
	Let's say my wife hadn't had this kind of experience.
	Well, I mean, if you're if your child is, I don't know, let's say they're having a bunch of nosebleeds and you can't sort of figure out why, you go to a doctor, right?
	No, that's fair.
	That's fair.
	So, that's her.
	Your mother, knowing that she chose badly in her marriages, should have gone to an expert to make sure that to minimize the chances of replicating.
	I mean, how was your mother during COVID?
	Was she nervous about COVID?
	No, no.
	Okay.
	Yeah, because a lot of people were nervous about COVID.
	Like, oh my gosh, I could transmit a virus and I got to wear a mask and I got to stay home.
	And you saw people with masks in their cars and whatever.
	I'm not saying that was your mother, but so people were nervous about transmitting viruses, and yet nobody seems to be that concerned about transmitting dysfunction.
	I'm just sort of sorry, that was my sort of labored analogy, but no, that's a perfectly fair analogy.
	I understand that.
	I mean, if your mother, if your mother had a bad cold, would she come over and be coughing and sneezing around you?
	No, she'd be like, oh, I don't want to give you what I've got, right?
	Absolutely.
	Okay, so same thing with dysfunctional relationships.
	But what do you do after you're already in that situation?
	You know, I sorry, which situation?
	When you're in a family that's dysfunctional, I've tried to bridge that divide between my father and my mother and understanding both of them and their preferences and how they want to live their lives and how they even came.
	So the idea that you're going to try and act as your therapist to your parents 30 years separated is, I don't even know what to say about that.
	But what I am saying, what I am saying, is that your mother and your father served you very badly by not helping you avoid their mistakes.
	That is dysfunctional, in my view.
	I think it's actually kind of toxic.
	And the fact that you've ended up in relationships like your mother's and your father's is to a significant degree on them.
	It's 100%.
	I get you're in the 30s, you're an adult, but what I'm pointing out is that these patterns are not yet identified.
	And I think that the barrier to identifying these patterns is your mother's resistance to criticism.
	Because if you can't criticize your mother, you can't choose better in your partners.
	I think she's open to criticism.
	I think the thing that I struggle with the most with her with regards to criticism is for analysis of it.
	She will kind of clock out when it comes to being introspective about the.
	I don't think I personally, and I could be wrong, I don't think she can be criticized at this point.
	Because if she were to accept that she had a significant hand in the disasters of her children's lives, what would her, like if she really got that, what do you think her emotional response would be?
	I think she'd feel extremely depressed.
	I think she'd feel terrible, like really terrible.
	Yeah, agree.
	And then what?
	I don't want to think about that.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Right.
	So when people have done, when people have continued to make mistakes, even when they know better, and this is what I'm really trying to help you avoid, right?
	And none of your mistakes have involved children.
	So that's a huge benefit and a bonus.
	But that's not true, but go ahead.
	Well, you don't have kids.
	I don't, but I had a stepson in the marriage and things weren't great.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	No, that's that.
	I appreciate that correction.
	Thank you.
	See, see, look at you pushing back, telling me when I'm wrong.
	I appreciate that.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	So if you can't criticize your mother, then you are silenced and of service to her because you can't have a voice in the relationship.
	And so the biggest question you had was: why do I feel like I need to be of service to people?
	Because I think that you serve your mother's avoidance of the mistakes that she's made and the bad decisions that she's made and the effect that that's had on her children.
	How do I serve that?
	By not being honest, by choosing to self-attack rather than to get mad at your mother for some parenting, some very bad parenting choices and very bad marriage choices.
	Okay, far left question.
	Do you think that a child that's a product of a toxic alcoholic relationship, do you think that child is better served by acting out and making it clear like, hey, these things have ruined me or put me in this position?
	Or does that child serve themselves better by being quiet and learning what they need to do and to change and focusing on that?
	Does that make sense?
	Okay, I will give you that answer in a very direct way.
	Okay, what's your favorite male name?
	My favorite male name, probably Michael or something.
	Michael, all right, yeah, John.
	What's your preferred physical type in a man?
	Uh, big farmer-esque kind of guy, like you know, right, like a cow wrestling dad bot, right?
	Okay, got it, got it.
	All right, so Michael, who actually wrestles cows for a living, comes along, he's tall, he's handsome, and he's like, Hey there, little lady.
	I don't know, sort of vaguely Elvis voice.
	Okay, so so he comes along and uh he is interested in you and starts to chat with you.
	And you have to explain to him the mistakes that you've made, right?
	Right?
	And he says, Well, why do you think you've made those kind of mistakes, little lady?
	I'm so sorry.
	No, really, I need to know because uh, I'm just I got some cows to wrestle this afternoon.
	I'll be doing it in a pair of chaps, just in case you want to come and watch like two moon globes wrestling a cow.
	You can't get any hotter than that.
	But I do need to know, little lady, why you might have think you made those kind of mistakes.
	Am I supposed to answer this question?
	You don't have to put on an accent, no, seriously, because you're going to face this from a quality guy who's going to ask you these questions.
	Um, okay, I mean, maybe not with the assless chaps, but he's going to ask those questions.
	Um, I answer the questions honestly, and I just kind of suck it up that even though my answers are sucky, that hopefully he can see some potential there.
	Hopefully, the physical interest trumps my answers.
	Well, while you are a pretty hot little Philly, uh, and I've gotten over my partiality to the heifers, uh, I still need to know why you made those mistakes.
	Um, okay, okay.
	Um, once again, I'm just gonna be honest: like, that's one of those things where you got to recognize that this guy is like really attractive or whatever, and you lose out, but you have to be honest, like, you can't lie to him.
	Okay, so why would you give me the two sentences?
	Why do you think you got together with Mr. Rub and Tug right after you stopped seeing Mr. Fisticuffs?
	I just need an answer, if that's all right.
	Got it right back to Graceland.
	I'm a security guard there at night.
	I'm sorry, I felt like I would just tell him to have a nice night, and I wouldn't even answer any of his other questions.
	No, no, because he still smells of cow, and that's just a thing for you.
	I'm sorry, you're gonna have to just roll with me with the roleplay.
	Never say no in an improv.
	Never say no, that sounds so hot, and it sounds like I would be so out of his league that I shouldn't even be talking to him.
	Like, but nonetheless, nonetheless, I hear you listen to this crazy Canuck cat called Free Domain Steph Head or something like that.
	I don't know, big chatty forehead.
	He's done some rap and sang the national anthem once.
	Uh, so I hear you're into Stefan Mollinooks.
	I don't know exactly how to pronounce it because I have this kind of accent, so I really don't have that choice to do anything francaise.
	But, you know, if you're into Stefan Mollinooks, you know, that's you're you're number one in my list.
	So if you could just show a good old boy to the clearing where I can understand your past choices, we can move this on to the next level and I can put you up in my barn.
	I think, I think, okay, so I won't even lie.
	I typically probably rely on my honesty a little bit.
	And so I would probably just be super honest and just tell him that, you know, hey, I'm a messed up person.
	I've got messed up things going on in my head.
	And I think that I am inferior because I'm a woman and because I'm black and all these different things.
	And so that's why I do the things I do.
	And so if you're interested and you want to learn more about me, you can.
	And if not, then don't talk to me anymore.
	That's typically how and so if he's if he's a quality guy, what's going to happen?
	If he's a quality guy, if we're being honest, he's probably going to be like, all right, you sound kind of fucked up and you probably need some help and I'm not going to talk to you.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So do you want a quality guy?
	Of course I do.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry.
	That's kind of a do you want a high value man?
	Okay.
	So no, I do.
	I do.
	I worry all the time.
	I'm honest with guys because I don't want to give them a hard time.
	I don't want to make their lives harder.
	Right.
	But I won't act like there's not an element where sometimes I feel sad that I'm not.
	I wish I was just normal.
	I wish I wasn't weird.
	I wish I wasn't kind of effed up.
	I wish I hadn't gone through the things that I've gone through in the past five years, like so that I could just be a normal, nice girl for a normal, nice guy.
	And you can be, but there's a price to be paid.
	What is the price?
	Well, the price to be paid is honesty and accuracy.
	So are you 100% responsible for all for the mistakes you made as an adult?
	I think that I am.
	Okay.
	If you were raised in Japan and didn't speak English, but only spoke Japanese, are you responsible as an adult for not speaking English and only speaking Japanese?
	No, I guess technically not.
	No.
	No.
	Now, of course, you can take the trouble to learn Japanese, which might take you sort of five to 10 years or whatever, right?
	So you can take the time and trouble to learn how to speak Japanese, but you're not responsible as an adult for not speaking a language you weren't raised with.
	I makes sense.
	I understand.
	So that's all I'm saying, right?
	So my point is that if you get to be 20, 25 and you don't speak Japanese, let's say you're raised in English, you don't speak Japanese, right?
	So I don't speak Japanese.
	So my parents chose not to teach me Japanese, right?
	So that's on that.
	Now, as an adult, okay, I've got to learn Japanese or whatever, but I still have to understand that it's not my fault I don't speak Japanese.
	Okay.
	Right.
	So if you have trouble speaking the language called self-confident functionality or whatever it is, right?
	Then your parents didn't teach you that.
	Your father abandoned you.
	Your mother did not give you the proper guidance.
	She didn't learn it herself.
	And she didn't give you the proper guidance.
	And I'm not saying in no areas, and I'm not saying this is black and white and 100%, 0%, but it's hard to imagine because the only other alternative is your mother gave you great advice and your father gave you great advice and they had great credibility with you.
	But then in some mysterious form of demonic possession, you just made self-destructive choices, even with all of the better choices arrayed out in front of you.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	So then you just, you just, there's something, I won't say demonic, but then it would be just something like, I'm born under a bad sign or, you know, like born to be bad or like the original sin, or like you just, no matter what kind of good advice you get, you just, you just keep doing the wrong thing.
	And, right.
	So that's not the answer, right?
	No, no, because if that's the answer, I mean, then the nunnery thing would probably be, that's not the answer, right?
	Yeah, it's all doom and gloom from that perspective.
	So I think the answer in the long run should be something like, I was raised badly, and my mother had bad relationships, and she didn't learn from those and transmit that to me.
	And I was very frightened to confront her because I was concerned that she would get really angry at me.
	And she's my last sort of close contact with humanity in a way.
	So she had a lot of power over me.
	And it took me a long time to sort of get up the courage to tell her where I think she'd gone wrong and to be angry at her for not giving me the lessons that she'd learned that I needed to learn.
	So there was a lot of complicated things involved.
	But, you know, I've had that conversation.
	I've, I've, you know, whether you have it with her directly or, you know, go through a therapist or something like that.
	But if you have an answer as to why you made bad decisions, if you have an answer, then that's fine because we all make bad decisions.
	If you don't have an answer, you know, my mother's great.
	I'm just mysteriously making terrible decisions because my wiring is bad or whatever.
	Then that's not an answer that a mature man would say is a good answer.
	Does that mean you'd have sympathy for sure?
	No.
	But, you know, I want you to have love if you want a family.
	I want you to have a family if you want to have a family.
	But the price for that is honesty and accuracy.
	The honesty is, yes, you've made some bad decisions.
	Yes, you had access to better information and you're somewhat responsible for that, in my view.
	But I think that the primary issue that you have, and you've heard me talk about the need to have honest conversations with your parents for almost 10 years and you haven't done it, right?
	Now, that doesn't mean I'm right, but you certainly heard me talk about it for 10 years.
	And you've seen some results from people who got married, who have happy parenting relationships with their own kids and so on, who've had those difficult conversations.
	And of course, as a religious believer, thou shalt not bear false witness means tell the truth about important issues for sure.
	I mean, all issues if you can, but certainly the important ones.
	So if you've listened to me say, you know, you've got to have this conversation for like 10 years and you've never had this conversation, it's because it's scary.
	And it shouldn't be scary.
	It shouldn't be scary to criticize your parents.
	I mean, it's not scary to criticize me, is it?
	No.
	Or to correct me.
	No.
	Good, good.
	So, because I'd hate that if it was.
	Last thing I want to be is scary.
	So what I would say is whether you have this conversation with your mother directly or not, you need to get to the root as to why you haven't.
	Because you are withholding information that is really important from your mother.
	And the consequence of you not holding your mother responsible for anything is that you hold yourself responsible for everything.
	And unfortunately, that hasn't solved things, if that makes sense.
	Of course, that makes sense.
	And of course, if your mother wants to call me and set me straight, she's certainly welcome, as I mentioned.
	But that's the major stuff that I would like to get across.
	Is there anything else?
	I know we've chatted for a good old chunk of time.
	Is there anything else that you want to mention?
	Oh, no.
	No.
	I hope you don't mind if I bug you in the future.
	But for this time, I feel like I need to come to reckoning with the things that we've already talked about.
	So I can't add anything to it.
	Okay.
	And listen, it's not bugging.
	It's always a delightful chat.
	And look, I mean, you're a wonderful.
	woman and it's a great conversation and it certainly helps the world.
	I think it helps you.
	And I just really wanted to reiterate the massive amount of sympathy that I have for, you know, being raised by the alcoholic father and your mother who's not exactly overflowing with knowledge and wisdom.
	That's a tough life.
	And, you know, it's really sad.
	It's sad how little wisdom there is out there in the world, particularly to help young people who had challenges with their upbringing.
	So I'm thrilled to chat anytime you want.
	And I really do appreciate the talk today.
	I appreciate your time as always.
	Thank you so much.
	Big hugs.
	Stay in touch, all right?
	Absolutely.

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