Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - The Great Spanking Debate Twitter/X Space

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Nov. 25, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:50:12

The Great Spanking Debate Twitter/X Space

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	Good morning.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Hope you're doing well.
	Stephan Molyneux from Free Domain, Freedomain.com slash Donate to help out the show.
	Thank you, thank you, thank you.
	And shop.freedomain.com to get your tasty, swaggy merch, particularly for Christmas.
	Show people your love of philosophy by denseling the logo on their forehead.
	Big logo, big forehead.
	That's how it works.
	It's beautiful.
	So it's an odd time, I know, for a show in the AM.
	It's farmer's hours for a philosopher.
	We're just out here milking the back 40 and fencing the cows and plowing the roof and cannon foddering the chickens.
	I may be making some of that up.
	I'm not a farmer exactly.
	Oh, I farm human souls in a go-gol style.
	All right.
	So I have been talking back and forth with the general make friends, break friends business approach that I have where everybody thinks I'm on their side and then I ask them a question they don't like and it's bad, right?
	So this all came about because there was a video of a woman, teacher of the year, apparently, beating her child, hitting him, I think, two dozen times in 20 seconds or something like that.
	She's been charged with assault, child abuse, or whatever it is.
	And of course, you know, it's on video.
	And we'll see how that plays out.
	Though it seems that if they're charging you for something that's on video, you're probably wise to take your lumps.
	So what happened, of course, was that people under the video were commenting, you know, what's the problem?
	This is necessary.
	This is good.
	Spare the rod, spoil the child, this kind of stuff.
	And there was a lot of Christians who were praising this woman for beating.
	Now, this, I mean, the kid was screaming.
	I mean, honestly, like in all seriousness, it was like stomach-wrenching to hear.
	It was absolutely horrible to hear.
	And it was, I won't say it's traumatic because I'm not quite that much of a wilting flower, but it was difficult.
	Like it was emotionally difficult to hear the terror and all of that.
	Because, you know, this is a woman who's, I mean, clearly out of control.
	And I know everybody has this theory or this idea.
	And, you know, if you guys have, you know, comments and fight me if you want to tell me how I'm wrong, I'm obviously thrilled, genuinely thrilled to hear that.
	But it was gross to see all the Christians, and it wasn't only Christians, of course, I understand that.
	But there were a lot of Christians out there like, yep, this makes sense.
	This is good.
	What's the problem?
	And praising her for her efficiency at landing 20 or so blows in 22 seconds.
	I guess somebody went frame by frame and counted the blows.
	So I said it was sickening to see, particularly the Christians drooling and praising this child beating.
	This is, I mean, to me, it's nothing to do with discipline, pure satism.
	So then, of course, people were like, well, you know, why are you only focusing on the Christians?
	And it's like, because Christians are much more likely to hit children than atheists.
	I mean, it's really frustrating in a way.
	Of course, right?
	If you're into the non-aggression principle, then if you say to atheists, don't hit your children, you know, they kind of get it because atheists have a more rational worldview because it doesn't require faith and so on.
	Atheists have a more rational worldview of the natural order.
	And so they require less aggression to transmit that worldview to their children.
	I mean, because of course, the more irrational or anti-rational your worldview is, the more aggression is needed to get people to agree.
	I mean, this is the sort of famous and terrifying scene from 1984 where O'Brien is torturing Winston Smith and reminding him and telling him and repeating to him that two and two make five and four at the same time.
	If that's what the party wants, if that's what the party says, then that's what you do.
	And you don't just have to agree to it.
	You have to actually believe it.
	You know, there's always this Disney crap here, believe, like it's magic.
	It's like, believe, you're insane from a sort of philosophical standpoint.
	And yeah.
	So from a natural order, physics, biology, the atheists have the Christians beat by a country mile.
	And so childhood is about teaching children about the world.
	And if your worldview is more rational, then you need less violence to transmit it because you can have reasoned explanation.
	So you don't need aggression.
	And that's where atheism wins and religion loses.
	And Christians are more than twice as likely to hit their children than atheists or agnostics, as the secular and so on, right?
	So in childhood, when you're teaching children about the world, atheists need less coercion in the home.
	However, of course, in the larger political realm, Christians have atheists beat by a country mile because atheists are far more into political compulsion, particularly in the realm of free speech, which is kind of ironic, right?
	Atheists were pursued by religious people sometimes in the past to speak in their minds.
	And lo and behold, we've come full circle.
	And now the atheists want to hound other people for disagreeing with their dogma and their creeds.
	So in the political realm, atheists are far more supportive of violence than Christians.
	Because the atheist political worldview is anti-rational, just as the religious worldview of physics and biology is faith-based.
	I won't say anti-rational, but it's not explainable through reason.
	You require faith and faith in general requires aggression.
	So it's really frustrating if we could just bring these two worlds together and get the Christians to reject force in child racing and get atheists to reject force in societal and political matters.
	Well, we'd be a long way towards a much better world.
	But that is the job of philosophy, of course, to tie these disparate, often emotional reactions together and to try and bring peace and reason to every corner of human endeavors.
	Because, you know, people always want to have a carve-out.
	That's sort of an old business term, a carve-out, where you say, well, the price is going to go up, but we're going to carve out a little section for these clients, you know, these customers who've been around for a long time.
	And, you know, they've been very kind and we've got a good relationship with them.
	So we won't raise prices on those guys.
	We'll raise prices in general for new customers right away, but we won't raise.
	There's a carve-out, right?
	Everybody wants a carve-out because a carve-out is where the power is, right?
	So the atheists say, well, I don't agree with violence in child raising, but they support giant predatory coercive government programs.
	So they carve out, oh, we should have a world of peace and reason.
	But I want to carve out political power from that.
	And the Christians, of course, are very good when it comes to political power.
	And they say we should have a small government with free speech.
	Fantastic.
	On the other hand, when it comes to child raising, they are much more pro-violence.
	And this is just the spanking side, not to mention, of course, that this is not true for all Christians, naturally, not true for all Christians, but the threat of hell is severe child abuse, severe child abuse.
	And trying to bring these two things together is tough.
	So, of course, you know, when I remind the atheists that they don't have either a religious or rational basis for their morals, the Christians are yay.
	And okay, that's good.
	I mean, we want to point out the deficiencies.
	But then when I point out to Christians that they use, they're far more likely to approve of violence and child raising than it's like, oh, I thought that yay was yay, but it's not yay.
	It's the opposite of yay.
	So, you know, which is better, which is worse.
	You know, I guess I suppose it's gone something like this.
	If I have to say, ah, not that I have to say, I choose to say, but if I choose to say, it goes a little something like this.
	So why is atheism the way that it is?
	Well, through a variety of non-Christian initiatives, Christianity was to some degree, to a significant degree, largely stripped from Western culture in the school and political realm.
	So, you know, the Ten Commandments can't be in courthouses.
	And when I was a kid, we did the Lord's Prayer every morning.
	And then that got, I assume that's been largely stripped away these days.
	And you can't even sing the national anthem anymore in some places.
	So as Christianity was taken away from public institutions and Christianity began to lose credibility, then I think what happened was that the atheists rejected Christianity because it was no longer required to succeed, to have a social life, to have a business life, and so on.
	They rejected Christianity and ran to the state.
	They ran to the state because the state is a protector.
	I mean, that's the story.
	That's the idea, right?
	The state is a protector.
	And so they had been slapped, spanked, beaten, or whatever by Christian parents.
	And the state was a protector.
	And the state, of course, was a protector in many ways in school.
	So if you were hit, slapped, spanked, beaten at home, then you went to school.
	Corporal punishment was removed from school.
	I mean, I was at boarding school in the early 70s.
	And I got caned.
	And I know my wife saw kids getting hit on the back of a hand with a ruler.
	And, you know, the sort of the famous Blues Brothers aggressive nuns were sort of a staple of fiction and popular horror.
	But in many places, corporal punishment, I know, and I think in still about half the U.S. states, you can corporal, you can hit kids in school, but it was dropped from a lot of schools in the 70s.
	I don't think I ever saw a kid getting hit in a Canadian school.
	I came to Canada in 1977.
	Oh my gosh, I'm getting old there.
	Let me just ask, when was corporal punishment banned in schools?
	Now, of course, this is going to go.
	Oh, that's so funny.
	Poland, 1783.
	Sweden, 1958, public, 1979, all.
	United Kingdom, 1986, state schools.
	Canada, 2004, but I think it's banned in 32 states, the United States, first in New Jersey, 1867, and so in Japan, 1947, China, 1986, India, 2000.
	Let's just set details about Canada, because it was not.
	All right.
	So corporate punishment, the strap, ruler, paddle, or hand, was legally permitted in Canadian schools for over a century.
	The strap was very common, 1950s to 1980s.
	By the 1980s, many school boards and provinces voluntarily phased it out or restricted it heavily.
	It remained technically legal everywhere until 2004.
	So I did not see it in Canada in the late 70s and 80s.
	I never saw any corporate punishment.
	So of course, if you were getting hit at home and when you went to school, you weren't getting hit, then you would view the state, the government, the non-religious institutions as safer, that the government would appear to be, and you would experience it as a place of safety from corporal punishment, from hitting, spanking, slapping, beating.
	And of course, I mean, there were still punishments in schools.
	I remember getting, I was the back of the class gang.
	I don't know if you've seen those pretty funny videos of the people in the back of the class eating like a five-star meal and things like that.
	But I was sort of a back of the class kid.
	And we would sort of make jokes and laugh and, you know, just get our way through the hellscape of education.
	And so I would get lines from time to time to write out these lines and so on.
	I remember programming a computer to write lines and said, look, I mean, I'm learning how to program computers.
	And it printed out the lines.
	And that was actually kind of acceptable.
	So they seemed to be okay with that.
	So I was able to get that instead of doing sort of the physical handwriting of lines.
	What else?
	I don't think I ever got detention.
	I got yelled at, of course, a couple of times.
	But I went from, you know, caning, which was pretty severe, to just lines, which was, of course, much less of a problem.
	So I think that if religious parents are still hitting their children, as most of them are, then when you go to school and you're safe, then you view the state as a protector and you view your parents as violent or as aggressive and so on, then you're going to bond for the state.
	You know, I don't know if you had a sort of violent childhood, if you were lucky, and you had to have some social skills in this area as a whole.
	But if you were lucky, you had, oh, that magic home.
	That magic, glorious, beautiful, wonderful, peaceful home with nice parents and siblings who got along reasonably.
	It was clean.
	It was tidy.
	I remember the home that I used to go to as a teenager.
	I bonded with a friend of mine over our shared love of programming computers.
	And then we all ended up playing Dungeons and Dragons together.
	And I'd go to this guy's house.
	Ah, beautiful.
	They had a pool.
	They had three floors, a finished basement.
	I mean, you would open up the, you'd open up the closet door downstairs or the storage room downstairs.
	And there would be like stacks and stacks of cases of pop.
	I can't even tell you what that meant to me because pop was like this absolute, I mean, probably for the best, but pop was this absolute rare delicacy.
	I remember being in England at the age of nine or 10 and being utterly unable to finish a can of Coke because it was just too much for me.
	But like you'd open this and the choirs of the angels of Tooth Decay would sing out their enamel busting, tap dancing.
	And it was a peaceful, lovely place.
	I spent a lot of time there.
	They also shared a cottage with another family.
	I mean, a real rundown place, but it was a huge amount of fun.
	I learned snowmobiling and dirt biking and wood chopping and all of that up there.
	And we'd go up there a lot.
	So, I mean, they had to like me.
	I had to be, I had to pretend to be functional.
	Just kidding.
	I mean, I was okay.
	And so, if you have that one place, then that's what you set your sights on as an adult.
	And I've tried to recreate that to make a home hospitable for kids to have that kind of fun and joy and peace and relative happiness.
	So, if you have that, that's your sanctuary.
	That's where you go.
	That's where you gravitate towards.
	And if that's school for you, then you're going to bond with the state.
	That family from my teens had a huge impact on my life, taught me someplace better and different to get to.
	And I guess if school has banned corporal punishment, you're not hit at school, but you're hit at home, then you're going to bond with the state and you're going to ignore the coercion of the state and you're going to reject Christianity and move more towards the state.
	Blue, I'll talk to you in just a second.
	I'm just going to get the actual details in the U.S.
	Okay, just the U.S. has usually the best data and the widest spread of information about spanking.
	So, the most recent data from the country as a whole is 2014: 37% of children aged 0 to 17 experienced it last year.
	49% for ages 0 to 9, lower for teens, 23% for ages 10 to 17.
	Overall, parental approval hovers around 70 to 80 percent, although it's declined from over 90 percent in the 1960s.
	Research consistently shows higher rates of spanking among religious parents, particularly conservative or evangelical Protestants, compared to non-religious or atheist agnostic parents.
	This pattern holds for both prevalence, actual use, and attitudes, approval of spanking.
	Atheism and non-religiosity are associated with lower rates, often due to less endorsement of biblical interpretations that support physical discipline, e.g., spare the rod, spoil the child, from Proverbs.
	So, Protestant, 81% approved spanking as necessary, not just as good, but as necessary.
	Evangelical born again, 80%.
	Catholic, 69%, Jewish, 51%.
	Non-Atheist, about 50 to 60% inverse association.
	And there's limited data about Muslims and Hindus and so on.
	Approval among conservative Protestants has remained stable at about 80%, while overall U.S. rates fell from 90% in 1968 to 65 to 70% in 1994 to present, partly due to rising non-religiosity, now 25 to 30% of U.S. adults.
	Rates are higher among black Protestants and Southern evangelicals.
	So it's quite sad.
	It's quite sad.
	So I have more to say.
	We have a caller who wants to correct me, perhaps most forcefully, or agree with me.
	If you want to unmute, I'm happy to hear what's on your mind.
	So basically, yeah, there's one troll in here.
	You should kick him.
	He's called Masculine with a Harry Chouse picture.
	That guy basically has gate porn in his feed.
	Just get rid of him.
	I'm sorry, you're doing what?
	There's some random dude in here you should take from the from the lobby because he's got like shit that's not allowed on X in his profile.
	Ah, okay.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Dude's name is Masculine with a hairy chest, which are fucking record.
	I think I'm sure James can, I think James can handle that.
	Let me just appreciate that.
	Is there anything that you wanted to mention or is that something that?
	Oh, I mean, you can, I guess we can have this conversation.
	Sure.
	I mean, it's a similar topic to what I heard you talked about before.
	I got your opinion from it that I take it that you don't basically want your parents to hit kids or whatever, basically.
	Right.
	Yes.
	But yeah, that basically happened to me as a kid up until like age nine.
	And then I think my stepdad stopped because like basically you said that happened to me.
	I'm not sure if that is the hitting or the not hitting.
	Being hit, yeah.
	Being hit.
	Okay.
	So tell me a little bit about the sort of family history.
	And of course, first of all, my sympathies for all of this.
	Unless you're happy and proud of it, in which case we can have another discussion.
	But I'm sorry that it happened to you.
	So what's the story?
	It was your stepdad?
	Yeah, it's pretty simple.
	I mean, it just wasn't pleasant.
	I mean, basically, I was just being an annoying shit to him.
	And he thought, well, if I hit the kid, maybe he'll learn that there's consequences or something.
	I mean, it's basically like almost no thoughts involved.
	Call it discipline.
	Call it discipline.
	It's really distress relief for him.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Yeah.
	Why would you call yourself an annoying shit?
	How old were you?
	Because, I mean, that's basically the interpretation he had, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, like, it's like up, basically from like a young-ish kid to like up to nine.
	And then he stopped after that point because he's like, all right, this is getting a little gay.
	He's a little too old for this shit.
	And then he stopped.
	So, yeah.
	So how old were you when he was calling you an annoying shit?
	No, he didn't really, I don't think he ever said that, but I think he framed it as like, oh, it's the discipline that my stepson needs or something.
	Right.
	Basically.
	Okay.
	So tell me a little bit about your family history.
	What happened to your yeah?
	So basically my dad was basically like kind of abusive.
	Like he didn't really mean to be, I think.
	He just had like a short temper.
	You can call it genetics or whatever, but he like put my mom in a chokehold at like, I don't know.
	I think I was like probably an infant still.
	So like one year or younger.
	And then basically that lasted for like maybe like 15, 20 seconds.
	And then she was just like, well, this guy's like totally dangerous.
	I'm just leaving.
	And then asked her sister's husband to take her out of there.
	And that was it.
	I've seen my dad before.
	First time I saw him, I didn't even know he existed until I was like 10.
	And the person I saw him, I was 12.
	And yeah, he lives in a different state.
	And I live with my parents still.
	Okay.
	So do you know much about your biological father's life?
	Yeah, he went to, I think he went to the Air Force and he became an Air Force fighter jet pilot.
	And besides that, I don't really know.
	I asked him if he killed people when he was doing missions and stuff.
	And he said, no.
	He said it doesn't matter if I did because I just did what I was told to do.
	And that was it.
	Right.
	So, I mean, as a fighter jet pilot, he would be highly intelligent.
	I mean, that's a very skilled job, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, either that or he's really motivated.
	I mean, no, motivation doesn't.
	You know, I was motivated to be a singer, but I don't have the voice, right?
	So let me just say, what is the average IQ of a fighter pilot?
	Because I just, I look at that.
	I've done some flight simulator stuff and it's a it's a whole lot of dials, right?
	Average IQ for US fighter pilots falls between 115 and 120.
	So that's fewer than one in 10 people in the society.
	Yeah.
	So that is, that's, that's very 120 mean for some.
	So that's, yeah, that's like only 2% of people score 130 plus.
	So he's, you know, one in 10, 1 in 15 in terms of intelligence.
	So that would be pretty smart.
	Yeah.
	So I guess like a standard deviation higher or whatever.
	Maybe a little bit more.
	Maybe.
	Okay.
	Hang on.
	So you said with regards to your father, he put your mother in a chokehold for 15 to 20 seconds.
	And you said something to do with his violence being genetic?
	Yeah, because I had a similar, well, I feel like I have a similar kind of short temper.
	I think it's like, I don't know if this is even possible to be genetic, but I haven't really looked into it at all.
	But I think there might be like some kind of like persecution complex, like you're obsessed with, or you're just very sensitive to people talking shit about you, making you feel like you're stupid.
	Like people, you just hate people hating you.
	And you react kind of angrily to that.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So that's it's very concerning for you.
	It's a sorry, it's very what?
	It's a it's a concerning thing to be hated by other people.
	Yeah.
	That's how I feel about it.
	And then I think that's how he feels about it as well.
	And how has that shown up in your life, that sensitivity to disrespect or being viewed with contempt or put down?
	Well, I mean, I don't think I started to really notice it a lot until I was like maybe 12.
	And then beyond that, it was basically, I just tried not to piss people off.
	And I took it as like, you know, something's wrong with me, obviously.
	But yeah.
	So you're very vague and I'm trying to understand your mindset.
	And so can you give me, let's try this.
	Can you give me an example, a sort of more specific example?
	Yeah.
	So like disrespect.
	Sixth grade, I'm in school.
	I'm in a classroom.
	I'm like trying to be myself, trying to make people laugh.
	And then I get told, hey, you're an annoying fuck.
	You're an annoying fuck.
	Just stop talking.
	And I'm like, I don't know, just some random, like, I don't know, some random brown girl.
	I don't even know her name.
	Okay.
	So she said, you're annoying.
	Stop talking.
	And that sort of stung you.
	Is that right?
	Like that upset you?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Because I was just like, why would you say that?
	Like, okay.
	I took it personally.
	And I think I take things more personally than most people.
	And that's just, I guess you call it insecurity or whatever.
	Lack of security.
	But I think a lot of the depressive symptoms I used to have were related to food allergies, which I didn't know about until I was 22 years old.
	So basically, the food that I ate, anything with milk and gluten in it would make me feel absolutely terrible.
	And it's because my immune system, I'm pretty sure, like destroys my body from the inside whenever I consume these foods.
	And it just makes me mentally unwell.
	And I shit blood and I'm in pain.
	And I feel bad about myself.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yep.
	So I take things personally and I think that's genetic.
	And I know for sure what's genetic is like the immune system issues that I have with food.
	And that leads to me to being feeling like shit.
	And yeah, if I'm in that state, which I used to be all the time, of being affected by food allergens, taking things personally, that becomes like a day derailleur or like a thing that like really makes me feel like shit for a while.
	And like really sticks with me and I like obsess over it instead of just being like, well, it doesn't matter.
	Who cares?
	And I don't care about your opinion.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And how is your work and dramatic life going as a whole?
	Absolutely garbage.
	I went to college for four years and then three years after that, I had studied because I was unable to get a job.
	I was in computer science.
	My parents paid for my education because that's really what they wanted to do.
	Thought it was the right thing to do.
	I went and I completed my degree in six years instead of four because I wanted to leave.
	And I spent three years after that trying to get a job and learning on my own in software.
	And I failed to do that.
	And I think since then, I don't know.
	I felt like my parents gave up on me a little bit.
	And I'm just basically still unemployed.
	I had a tendency to get a job several times in my life and I didn't keep it for long.
	So you would get a job, not in computer science, but you'd get sort of a job.
	But you wouldn't keep it?
	What sort of job and what would happen?
	Yeah, basically, I would be so anxious from the amount of caffeine that I used and other stimulants that, yeah, it's mostly just caffeine, just lots of loss of caffeine.
	I would have a very bad reaction to, yeah, just being in public.
	I would be too anxious to the point where it's like I can like barely talk to people.
	I try to like play things off like, oh, I'm totally normal and like sweating and being like, you know, worried about random shit is like normal.
	But yeah, basically, I just just irresponsible with caffeine.
	And yeah, people's reaction to caffeine varies a lot.
	I think I have a very bad reaction to it.
	And I think I basically just socially like stunted myself, like crippled myself with caffeine.
	Yeah.
	And so what would happen?
	How would you end up losing your job?
	Yeah, basically it'd be for a number of different things.
	I feel like I would get to the point where I was so angry that like I couldn't like I basically just couldn't deal with other people.
	Like I was going to do something.
	I felt the need to leave because I hated my coworkers so much.
	But I was I was basically just so off-hooting to be around that other people would, or at least one person I remember would take the time to like basically kind of confront me and like abuse me in front of others to kind of say like, hey, like stop being how you are.
	But there'd be no like reasoning behind it.
	It's not like I'm trying to teach you a lesson.
	It's more like you're retarded to me.
	I don't want to talk to you.
	Like you basically just call me a retard in front of like a bunch of people of like a dominoes pizza or wherever the fuck I was working.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And how old are you?
	How old is I?
	I think 20.
	Oh, 29.
	29.
	Okay.
	And you're not working at the moment, is that right?
	No.
	And do you want to fix this stuff?
	Yeah, I mean, I feel like I don't really know what works in today's economy.
	Like, do you just go out and get like?
	Hang on, hang on.
	I'm talking about the emotional stuff.
	I can't do anything about the economy.
	I feel like I'm more emotionally stable now.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, sorry, is this a problem that you wanted to tackle and fix?
	Yeah, I'm not, I'm not like Mar, you know, like I'm not like super scarred about my past.
	It doesn't matter to me, really.
	But I do feel like people that are in that situation, like if you if you abuse your kids, it's probably not good for them, but I will be honest that it does work to get them to change their behavior more than speaking sometimes.
	But that's not really a reason to do it.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, so you don't want to try and solve the emotional stuff.
	Well, the thing is, I don't really know how to.
	I mean, no, that's not what I asked, though.
	Do you want to solve it?
	Well, I'm sure, I guess.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I just forgave him.
	That was how I got over it.
	I was just kind of like, well, I mean.
	You're not over it.
	No, but you're not over it because you're like a disaster.
	Yeah, I mean, kind of, yeah.
	Okay.
	So let's at least accept that you're like at 29, you're unemployed.
	Have you done much dating?
	No, absolutely zero.
	I feel it is a completely irresponsible thing to do because I have no money and people that are moneyless should not be dating.
	Well, that's all of our ancestors, so we wouldn't be here.
	Yeah, yeah, but I mean, in today's world, sure.
	That's an excuse.
	Okay, well, for me, it's been literally the biggest reason for me to never date because I don't want to end up like my dad.
	Without being able to see his biological dad, or you're still in the sky?
	Yeah, my biological dad.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So do you want to work to try and solve this in this conversation?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	So tell me a little bit about.
	Just to be honest, I don't talk with anyone, really.
	I get that you're a little out of practice.
	I get that.
	I put myself into a position where I'm basically a recluse because I have trouble interacting with people.
	I'm just worried about what they're going to say and shit.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So tell me a little bit about the violence that you experienced as a child.
	Well, I guess it was basically, it wasn't like too, too bad.
	I don't think it was like that, bro.
	Okay, do me a favor.
	Yeah.
	Just give me the facts.
	Your interpretation.
	You know what I mean?
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Because whatever your interpretations are has left you an unemployed recluse.
	So the interpretations probably aren't super helpful.
	Yeah.
	Just give me the facts.
	All right.
	Sure.
	So earflecking, being smacked over the head without warning or understanding, being told to like leave an area, being told you're always wrong or like listen to me.
	There's nothing else that you can say or do that would be more right than to just shut up and listen to me.
	Leave, go to your room.
	Just like threatening with more dangerous objects than the hand.
	I'm going to hit you.
	Like being bent over, you know, pull down the pants, you know, smack the smack the ass is basically what happened.
	I mean, just being hit in random areas like on the on the like the hands or the arms or the legs or like the thighs or whatever.
	And then like what else?
	Yeah, like, so like when I was a kid, also while kicking the back of the seat, I would be like, my sota would be pissed off and he would basically reach back behind the seat and like if he caught my leg, he would squeeze my bite, like my calf really hard and dig his nails into my skin.
	And then what else?
	Just other things.
	Like, let's say if it was like not like I was fucking up or I was doing something bad and I knew it, he would just like, I don't know, like take a towel, spin it into like kind of like a spiral shape and then like basically whip me with it.
	Yeah, okay.
	Like whip you with it.
	Yeah.
	But he called it like rat tail or something.
	And then it was just like a, it was like a joke thing, but it was more entertainment for him and more like a like I was like, you know, like, oh shit, let me get out.
	Yeah.
	But yeah, it wasn't like, I don't know, like total terrorism.
	Yeah, but yeah.
	I guess don't characterize your experience, right?
	Sure.
	I say, besides that, I think it lasted up until like age nine.
	And then like after that, he was like, yeah, this, this gets too old.
	This is dumb.
	Or like, this is like gay or something, no?
	So he's just okay.
	So let's.
	And then my parents divorced after that.
	Soon after that, like age 10.
	Age, what is it?
	Like 12, actually.
	Probably was your 12, 11, 12.
	Okay.
	So how often would this violence occur?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	Let's say, let's say once every two weeks, something bad would happen once every two weeks.
	Okay, so the sort of the flicking, the hitting, you said he'd grab your legs and dig his nails into your skin and so on.
	Some of it was by other people, but most of it came from my stepdad.
	So my brothers.
	Yeah.
	And who were the other people?
	Just a little bit from my grandfather.
	And this is your maternal grandfather.
	Father.
	Like your maternal grandfather.
	Got it.
	And so it would be like every two weeks you'd get some sort of like being talking to, like say, say things in a certain way where it's like, you know, you're left afraid and not sure.
	But I feel like I was the most that way with my stepdad.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, when you say you were the most that way, what do you mean?
	I mean, like, he did the most things that made me feel like I'm like bad and wrong and I'm uncomfortable where I am.
	Well, this is the what was it, annoying little shit that you characterized yourself as, yeah, yeah.
	I mean, I tried to get in his head a little bit.
	I mean, that's, I think, what he was thinking because, you know, he's dealing with stress and drug addiction and all that.
	Yeah.
	But you characterized it as you were being an annoying little shit, not you were being right.
	So to him, yes.
	Okay.
	No, but that's not what you said.
	I'm not trying to nitpick, right?
	I'm just telling you that what you said was you were being an annoying little shit.
	But anyway, I mean, I don't want to get too hung up on that.
	Sure.
	Okay.
	So when did your stepdad come into your life?
	Oh, by the way, I just want to cut off the connection at the very end.
	Like the abuse that I received is not the reason why I support socialism.
	All right.
	So let's just end right there.
	I don't believe that.
	And also the UBI thing that I talked about before, where I said, like, you tried to get me to be the state or something.
	And then you said something like, what was it?
	It was like, do you support violence against me if you were the government?
	And I said yes.
	But I really, really, what I meant was only in the way that it's done here in the United States, as I understand it.
	In other words, like only in response to someone being violent because they don't want to be talking about it.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Just for those who you're talking about a prior conversation or debate.
	Yes.
	A couple of weeks ago.
	Yeah, like yeah, maybe a month.
	Okay, so let's put all of that.
	Hang on.
	Let's put all of that aside.
	Sure.
	Trying to deal with the childhood stuff, right?
	So let's not worry about the politics right now, if that's all right.
	So when did your stepdad come into your life?
	Yeah, so one of my stuff that kind of before I knew what a dad was, so probably like age two or like one and a half, something like that.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	So if it happened, let's say every second week, 52 weeks in the year, 26 times a year times, let's say from two.
	You said around nine, it stopped, right?
	Is that right?
	Yeah, probably like.
	Yeah, nine.
	Okay.
	Okay, so it's nine, something like that.
	Yeah, so we do 26 times seven.
	So you were violence was used against you 182 times, give or take, as a child.
	Yeah, but there's varying levels.
	Sure.
	You can make a number like that.
	Okay.
	Sounds about right.
	And let me ask you this.
	Do you believe in evil?
	I've heard people say that it's really morals are up to each person individually.
	But to me, I feel like there are things that I really disagree with innately.
	So I guess you could say yes.
	Okay.
	Do you believe that the violence that was done to you was evil?
	Well, that's a bit of a tough one.
	I would say it definitely could have been handled in a different way.
	So it was a bad thing to do.
	Yeah.
	So it was evil.
	Yeah, I guess you could say that.
	I mean, I feel like I'm like, I feel like you're leading me to like kind of like the last time you want me to like put things into these like absolute categories where it's like all of the worst things belong to here.
	That's how I think of evil.
	Like this word is very strong.
	And so like if you if you try to put something that's like a lesser evil in, I guess I feel like saying that it's a lesser evil.
	Because if I don't, then I'm really making him out to be a terrible person in my head.
	And that just doesn't feel right because he was normal and like loving like a dad should be a lot of the time as well.
	So.
	Oh, sorry.
	You mean your stepfather was.
	Yeah.
	The same guy that hit me when he was most out of control of himself.
	I feel like I don't want to make my memory of him out to be any worse than it already is.
	Yeah.
	Because like every person in my life is kind of against him and I feel like it's unfair for him.
	Yeah.
	Did he stay in contact with you after your parents split up at the when he was when you were 10?
	No, I didn't pursue contact.
	He didn't pursue it for me.
	He only pursued it for his own son like once every few years.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what the once every few years refers to.
	Like he would come back to visit my younger brother who he lost custody of in a divorce like proceeding.
	Oh, so every couple of years he would visit his biological son, but make no effort to stay in contact with you.
	Yeah, no.
	Okay.
	So, and I obviously want to be fair to the man.
	So tell me about the loving or positive things that you experienced from your stepfather.
	Yeah, I mean, he would be more like a, I don't know, like a normal dad.
	You know, like you'd go out to the movies, you'd like laugh together, like talk about jokes, play games, whatever.
	But yeah, some of it went too far.
	And I think it was just because his mind was kind of addled by drugs.
	And, you know, just the kind that make you like less productive, you know?
	So not stimulants or at least some stimulants, maybe probably like caffeine, but like just, you know, energy drinks.
	And they're just like weed, probably hidden weed.
	Because I remember they were like his brother had like I found him having like weed in his drawer and like I was a kid.
	His brother?
	Sorry, who's his brother?
	His brother had like weed in his drawer or whatever.
	Sorry, whose brother?
	Yeah, my stepdad's brother.
	So your stepdad's brother had weed in his drawer, but did yours?
	Yeah, and then I've, yeah, he did it too, but he hid it mostly.
	I found him with a bomb one time as like a three-year-old, and I'm like, what's that?
	And he's like, oh, it's stuff for adults.
	Yeah.
	He's like hiding and shit.
	Okay, so how often did he do drugs?
	Did you know?
	I have no idea.
	I have no idea.
	Probably like maybe in the weekends for a while and then he probably stopped.
	Towards like the end of their relationship, my stepdad's relationship with my mom, towards the end of that, he probably stopped completely or mostly.
	And he gained like a lot of weight.
	And yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So I don't really know.
	Okay.
	So you had some positive interactions with your stepdad, but he also you said he was on drugs sometimes and he used energy drinks and so on, right?
	Yep.
	Yep.
	And did he work?
	Yeah, he did.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So who was responsible for you being subjected to violence?
	Him and what on one occasion, literally just one occasion, or maybe like a few if you want to characterize violence down to like flicking an ear or like flicking an ear is violence too, right?
	So sure, you want to go down to like that level, then it's like a few times by my grandfather, maternal grandfather, and then like most of it from him.
	And that's because he was around me the most when I was a kid.
	And then besides that, I mean, maybe a few from random strangers, but not too bad.
	Okay.
	Like, like the neighborhood kids, like the neighborhood kids, like, I think they asked me, like, I was like just looking around the neighborhood looking for friends or something.
	And then there was like a group of like, probably like four kids, maybe a year older than me.
	And I was like, hey, do you guys want to do something?
	He's like, what are you guys doing?
	And then they were like playing with airsoft, right?
	Then they asked to like shoot me in the back several times.
	And they just, they just all just opened fire on my back.
	And I was like, kind of in pain, like, I want to leave.
	But, and that was it.
	And then like another interaction with another kid.
	What was it?
	I forget his name.
	I don't want to say his name.
	But anyway, but yeah, basically he was like the same age as me and he was like on his bike or something.
	Then he fell over and the handlebar like went through the lower part of his neck and he was like bleeding.
	So yeah, I took him back to his dad and then like I said something along the lines of like that looks pretty bad.
	And then his dad just absolutely screamed at me and just told me to leave.
	So I don't know, just stuff like that.
	I'm thinking of anything that made me feel unwelcome or like just get the hell out of here.
	Yeah.
	Just a few of those.
	Okay.
	And sorry, I forgot to ask, how often were you called names or put down verbally?
	I don't know.
	Probably pretty consistently, like once a week.
	Once a week.
	And what sort of things would you be told?
	I don't know.
	Just you're wrong.
	Like stop talking.
	You're useless.
	You're, I don't know.
	I think I got called like the devil one time or something.
	His family was religious.
	His mom came from El Salvador.
	So there's that.
	So yeah, I guess your stepdad's mother came from El Salvador.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	And then his side of the family is more religious.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So they're Christians.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And are you religious yourself?
	No, not at all.
	Right.
	Yeah, this is sort of the pattern that I was talking about earlier.
	Okay, so you were called names maybe once a week, and there was violence used against you once every two weeks on average, like just in general.
	Yeah, I'm just guessing.
	Okay, so I don't agree with you.
	Doesn't mean I'm right.
	I'm just telling you, I don't quite agree with your assessment.
	I asked who's responsible for the violence in your life, and so that's it.
	That's the majority offender, right?
	Because he did it the most number of times just by being near me the most.
	I understand.
	Okay, so I wouldn't quite agree with you that it was your father, your father, and your stepfather who was primarily responsible for the violence in your life, and certainly not your stepfather.
	Okay.
	So who was responsible for your stepfather being in your life at all?
	You didn't blame it on my mom.
	No, I'm just asking you a question.
	Who was responsible for your stepfather being in your life?
	Who invited your stepfather into your life?
	Yeah, my mom, but she was equally out of control of her life.
	She was like, you know, 20 years old.
	Like, what do I do?
	I have a kid now.
	What the hell?
	How do I survive?
	So she's like, my biological dad paid child support, but yeah, kind of, yeah.
	Okay, so if your biological dad paid child support, are you saying that there's no way that your mother could have invited a non-violent man into her children's lives or her child's life?
	No, that's not the case.
	But obviously she could have chose differently.
	But then again, you know, I think she just went with whoever seemed like a good idea at the time, right?
	Whoever initiated the conversation.
	I mean, I wouldn't blame her for doing so.
	That was my choice.
	Sorry, hang on.
	You wouldn't blame her for what?
	For choosing my stepdad over another guy.
	And then my brother wouldn't be here.
	Sorry, why wouldn't she be responsible for who she chose?
	No, she is, but I just don't want to do that to her.
	I'm not sure what you mean by do that to her.
	Like to pin the responsibility of choosing a better partner on her and then be like, you fucked up here.
	Okay, but he was a violent and often abusive man.
	Yeah, but okay, well, here's just the way that I think about things.
	I think I make excuses for people often because I don't want to make them out to be worse than they are.
	I don't value my own judgments of my experience more than their judgments as people then.
	Like, I don't want to make them feel bad.
	Yeah.
	You don't want to make your mother feel bad by saying she had responsibility.
	No, I don't want to harbor these opinions because they're like a way to destroy the character of somebody that has taken care of me my entire life.
	I don't feel like it's right.
	Okay, tell me a little bit more about that.
	I want to make sure I understand that perspective.
	Yeah, basically, I just don't want to make the people that are still a part of my life.
	Or like, I mean, just were a part of my life in a mostly positive way.
	I mean, out to be a bad thing.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So help me understand then if, and I appreciate that response.
	How do you think, like, your life is a mess, right?
	Yeah, you could say it's a mess.
	I mean, to me, it's more like I just, I don't know.
	I just failed to get a job and I still feel like I shouldn't get one for some reason.
	Okay.
	It's a really stupidest perspective.
	I don't really have like a perspective of how succeeding in this day and age works because no one's talked to me about money and actually succeeding on my own.
	Like, how do I survive outside of my parents' house, you know, without being like totally destitute in a car?
	I have no idea.
	Besides, just work more and then go to sleep in your car.
	Yeah.
	And maybe you'll be able to afford a trailer someday.
	Okay.
	So, this is the second time you've kind of put yourself down.
	The first was when you said you were an annoying little shit, at least according to your stepdad.
	And then you just said you had a stupid perspective.
	Well, it's because, okay, well.
	Yeah, to be honest, people haven't been nice to me a lot in my life.
	Some of the time.
	I mean, I don't know.
	Okay, so the reason why I would say my perspective is stupid is because I just don't know how people get by in the real world.
	And I'm afraid to look because I don't want to be in their position.
	Let's just say you could call it cowardice.
	Sorry, whose position?
	The position of an average person who is in a car living their day-to-day, struggling and kind of suffering.
	Yeah.
	Oh, so what you're saying is that at 29, you live at home, right?
	And you don't date.
	And you don't have a job and you don't want a job, but other people are suffering who are dating, getting married, having children, and having jobs and careers.
	Yeah, sure.
	No, sorry.
	I don't want to mean the FC.
	Is that your perspective?
	Yeah, well, it depends on how they are.
	Some of them make it and they're happy.
	But the transition period between being in struggle and making it and being happy, I'm just not sure how to handle it.
	And so I haven't started.
	Never started.
	Okay.
	So would you say that the way that you were raised did not prepare you for the challenges of adulthood?
	Oh, no, definitely not.
	It was basically just here's a video game, stop being annoying.
	You know, here's a Game Boy, be quiet.
	And then like when I started to get to high school years, it wasn't like, I want you to get scholarships.
	It was like, just don't be an asshole and then go to college because that's where you're going to go.
	And I just, I don't know.
	The college quality of the courses was very low.
	I felt like.
	And I felt like there was basically nothing of value that was going to be learning here.
	And it made me not want to go.
	And I took longer than normal because I basically just hated the whole experience.
	And I was also, I was also physically and mentally unwell because of the amount of caffeine I was taking at the time.
	Yeah.
	So I wasn't sleeping, having too much caffeine, can't pay attention.
	Everything is like suffering.
	I might crash my car today.
	I need to, you know, I fell asleep in the parking lot one time because I was just that irresponsible with health.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So is it my understanding then that you don't want to have and oh my God I respect that, right?
	I mean, but you don't want to have or explore or process any negative perspectives or opinions of your mother.
	Yeah, you could say it's the lazy way to get out of it.
	Sure.
	I don't, I don't, I mean, she's literally like, well, like 20 feet away from me.
	But sure, if you, if you, no, I will explore them if you want me to, but I just don't feel like I want to call my mother evil.
	That just sounds wrong to me.
	And just totally inaccurate.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Listen, that's, it's, it's totally, it's your call if you don't want to explore that.
	Because listen, when things go wrong in your life.
	I just want it to be balanced.
	I don't want to, I don't want to like leave with this condemnation of my own mother.
	That sounds wrong.
	Well, when things go really badly, someone's at fault, brother.
	Yeah.
	Things don't accidentally go badly.
	When things go really badly, somebody's at fault.
	Now, if you're not going to hold anybody else accountable, i.e. the adults in your life, you end up blaming yourself or society or the system or things that you can't control.
	So this is, I mean, this is a general statement for people as a whole that if things are going really badly in your life, someone has messed up.
	And if you won't hold your mother, say, or your stepfather or your biological father to account, if you won't hold them responsible, then you just end up being down on yourself.
	So I'm just telling you that the price of not holding other people responsible for the mess of your life is that you end up blaming yourself and then you can't fix anything.
	So listen, but I understand you don't want to talk negative about your mom.
	So if that's, you know, if that's if that's the price, then I don't think change is really possible.
	All right.
	Yes, sir.
	What's on your mind?
	Well, I came in a little bit late.
	So if I can, can I get the brief summary of what your position is on the great spanking debate?
	Sure.
	So spanking is a violation of the non-aggression principle.
	Spanking is the initiation of force against helpless and dependent children.
	And spanking arises out of a lack of love and respect, right?
	So people are like, well, what do you do when your kid does something wrong?
	Well, of course, as the teacher, as the coach, as the parent, it is your job to instruct children.
	And if you're the coach of a young athlete and the athlete does badly, then that's really on you as the coach.
	And so you have to look at when your children do things sort of wrong or bad or something like that, you have to look in the mirror first and say, okay, well, how have I taught wrong?
	And what can I do to improve teaching?
	And the other thing, of course, is that I would say that if your children love you, then your disapproval is going to mean a lot to them if they love and respect you.
	And so rather than have children love and respect parents, which is, you know, you've got to act with integrity and honor and dignity and, you know, good humor and patience.
	So then if your kids respect you, then they will emulate your good behavior and your disapproval will be significant for them.
	Agreed.
	And so the best way to coach children is to inspire them to model good behavior.
	And if they do something like really bad or wrong, you can certainly say that you're upset or frustrated or something like that.
	But your disapproval should mean a lot to them.
	I mean, I love my wife and if she disapproves of something I do, that means a lot to me.
	And so on.
	So yeah, the general idea is that you should model good, honorable, moral, and decent behavior.
	Your children will love you and then they will listen to you and they will respect you and then you don't need to whack them around the face or the butt.
	But so that's my sort of thoughts.
	What are your thoughts?
	So there's absolutely at no point when any form of physical punishment is valid when disciplining a child.
	Well, tell me what you mean.
	I mean, no point.
	I don't know exactly.
	I was trying to find out where your limiting principle is on that.
	Like, is there at any point?
	If your child is about to whack another child in the face, then you can grab their hand and restrain them.
	Sure.
	Okay.
	I mean, so, but in terms of punishment, I guess my question is, I mean, I've been a stay-at-home dad for almost 17 years and I've never had to punish my child and it's never even really crossed my mind.
	If my child does something, quote, wrong or bad, I have to look at what I've been teaching and what I have put forward.
	And I clearly have not made a good enough case if my child has done something, quote, bad or wrong.
	So I have to look into myself about how I'm going to teach or coach better to get the better outcome, if that makes sense.
	But I'm certainly happy to hear the case.
	Is it like you know the kids running into traffic or uh the sort of the pot of boiling water on the hot stove kind of thing?
	Well, I've like I similar to blue of the gun, I had a extremely abusive childhood growing up from a stepdad who, as he unfortunately wasn't able to come to that conclusion or didn't want to come to that conclusion, it was the result of my mother allowing this man into our home who's not allowing, inviting, inviting, yes.
	Um, I remember in this guy, my stepdad was actually the man who she cheated on my father with and then weeks later married him and then brought him into the home.
	And for the first like two years, it actually wasn't that bad.
	He was, he was kind of fun, you know, like he looked like how old were you?
	Sorry, how was it?
	It's funny, you know, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, but no, no, no, it's funny.
	You know, I've had this, I've been doing this for like 20 years, and I do sort of notice something that when people are talking about their own lives, it all makes total sense to you, but I'm coming in from the outside.
	So I don't know how old you were or your siblings in any way.
	Did he have his own children or was he you had no stepbrothers?
	No, no.
	Okay.
	There was three children at the time when he got with my mother.
	That was me, my older brother, who is now dead, and my older sister.
	Then about six or seven years into the marriage, or actually maybe even less, I don't remember, but he ended up having two children with my mother.
	Okay.
	He never.
	Sorry, how old were you when he came into the picture?
	I was six.
	And I remember when my mom introduced this man into us, I remember very distinctly sitting on her lap waiting for him to come through the front door of my grandmother's house where we were living at the time.
	And I said, oh, like, who is this guy?
	And she said, oh, he's your new dad.
	And I was like, oh, well, does he have any kids?
	And she said, yes, she has, he has three kids, you, your brother, and your sister.
	Just right off the bat.
	And again, at six years old, I had no clue.
	I just thought he was a funny guy who got drunk and put my mom with panties on his head and ran around the house calling himself Panty's Man.
	It was hilarious at the time.
	Growing up, I was like, oh my God, this guy was fucking sick.
	I'm sorry.
	Were we allowed to curse?
	Honestly, if the topic is child abuse, cursing is the least of my concerns.
	Okay, so sorry, your mother said that you were your stepfather's children?
	Yes.
	That he was your biological dad.
	No, she wasn't saying that.
	She was just saying, this is your dad now.
	Okay.
	And how long into you knowing him did she say he's your dad?
	That's how she introduced him to us.
	Like, I knew that I had to do that.
	Oh, the first time you met him, she said, this is now your dad.
	Yes.
	That's how he was.
	Yeah.
	What?
	A lunatic.
	Oh, my mother was wild.
	My mother was wild.
	Thankfully, now as an adult, like I'm 41, now, you know, had lived a whole life experience.
	I'm able to look back and realize that, like, oh, my mother was a narcissistic sociopath and, you know, everything was not her fault.
	It was always somebody else's issue.
	I think of all the times that my stepdad like beat us ruthlessly, the like one time backhanded, my brother sent a blood splatter all over the wall.
	He had a two by four with a handle carved into it where he had like the years that we were, but he had 1992 on one side and 93 on the other with like little lines.
	And he would like write the person and the date who got spanked that day.
	And I think my brother and I had that paddle filled up within like two or three months.
	Didn't have much.
	So Panty's man was pretty evil.
	Well, that's that's the thing.
	Like, so I understand where you're coming from with the concept of evil.
	Like, for instance, I, my stepdad, I don't necessarily see as evil because that's how he was raised.
	He was raised in a very abusive childhood.
	He was not the most intelligent of men.
	He was in way over his head when it comes to my mother.
	My mother was very beautiful, very intelligent sociopath.
	She knew exactly how to manipulate men to get what they want, what she wanted.
	And I think when she got him involved, he was just like over the moon, like, oh my God, I've got this bombshell woman.
	This is great.
	And it wasn't until a couple of years into the marriage, he was like, oh, Jesus, I really bet on the wrong horse.
	But so I don't necessarily see him as evil.
	I saw his actions as evil.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Yes, go ahead.
	Okay, so but I appreciate this.
	And listen, I don't want to just use one big giant sledgehammer of evil, but I mean, he has, he was cold and calculated and violent, right?
	Because I don't know that he whole was just losing his temper.
	He had 92, 93, like written with names and all of that, right?
	Agreed.
	I don't know if, again, because like, so for instance, if I remember correctly, I've been following you for a few years.
	Like, whenever you talk about evil, it's essentially like knowing what the right thing to do is, especially in public, and doing the exact opposite of that when no one is looking, like, specifically when it comes to parenting, right?
	Do I have that correct?
	It's certainly, it's an indicator.
	Okay.
	It's like an indicator.
	That would absolutely describe my mother.
	My stepdad, however, again, he was a country boy, grew up in a wild lifestyle.
	I think this is just what he thought was supposed to happen or how parents were supposed to behave.
	Also, I know that he was probably feeling extremely insecure, the fact that he had three children from a previous marriage in the house.
	Again, that's his insecurities.
	That's not my fault.
	I don't blame myself for any of this.
	But I think, and as I stated on one of the comments, I said, I think people can do evil without necessarily fundamentally being evil themselves.
	Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, that's judging the essence of a person, which we can't really do.
	We can only say, I mean, I don't know what it would mean to say somebody's fundamentally evil, because that would be to judge some sort of essence that, I mean, we can only, as an empiricist, we can only judge actions.
	We can't judge some sort of essence or spirit or ghost of a person.
	We can only judge the actions.
	Correct.
	So if your stepfather was content and happy with how he parented, then clearly there would be no difference between public and private parenting.
	Right.
	So I think giving you hugs, giving hugs to your kids is fine.
	So I hug my kid in public.
	I hug my kid in private, so to speak, right?
	Yeah.
	And so I assume then that he would do these beatings wherever you were, at a mall, at a park in public.
	And if you said something wrong at a parent-teacher conference or whatever, he'd just smack you across the back of the head or something like that, because this was good parenting, right?
	But yeah, that's pretty much him to a tea.
	Okay, so he did do significant violence to you guys in public.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So give me an example.
	That's unusual.
	So just help me.
	I'm sure you're right.
	I mean, I have no reason to disbelieve you, but tell me that sort of what sort of example?
	See, I think most of my childhood I tried to black out for obvious reasons because it was extremely dramatic.
	I mean, every kind of abuse, even the most icky kind, the one, the one that nobody likes to talk about, that was going on.
	So thankfully none of that happened in public.
	But where was that coming from?
	That was coming from my brother.
	Oh, gosh.
	I'm so sorry.
	Oh, the dead one.
	Yes, yes.
	Yeah, he committed suicide.
	I want to say it was a couple of years after I joined the Navy.
	So I think around 2010, 2011.
	So he was a child molester who killed himself.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	I'm really sorry about all of that.
	Again, I don't even necessarily want to call him a child molester because he was a child at the time, too.
	You know, it was all, it's all very, it's all very gray, all very gray.
	And typically.
	He knew it was wrong, though, right?
	He didn't do it much.
	Sure, for sure.
	But I mean, he wasn't even like, I think I was like 10 or 11 and he was like 13.
	And at the same time, like my stepdad, one of his favorite things was to call us faggot.
	He would like, almost every time he would reach into the refrigerator to grab like a jar, he would like immediately thwack us in the head with it and be like, oops or a slipped hood.
	Like that was funny to him.
	He, I remember one time he took a giant tin and put it in the backyard and spray painted stick figures of my brother and I.
	And he painted my brother with, quote, pistol grip ears because he used to say that my brother had pistol grip ears perfect for blowing guys.
	And he used to call me buck teeth.
	And even though I don't have buck teeth, I don't know where he got that.
	Oh, it's because I have a slight overbite.
	But and then he put this tin in the backyard and then took out a tech nine and just used it for target practice.
	The tin that looked like your brother?
	The tin that looked like both of us, yes.
	Both of us.
	And he would.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, at 13, you know better.
	Yeah.
	I think, I think given the right kind of moral guidance, one would know better at 13.
	But I think get like in our household, there was no moral guidance.
	Everything I understand that.
	And I'm not, I understand that there's a difference between a childhood sexual abuser and an adult sexual abuser.
	But your brother didn't do it in public and he didn't do it in full view of people, right?
	Correct.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So he knew that it was disapproved of or wrong.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So tell me a little bit.
	I'm sorry about all of this, my God.
	No, no, that's okay.
	It made me into the person I am today, and I am thoroughly happy with who I am today.
	Yeah, but there's lots of better ways.
	There certainly are.
	But we all get together.
	We all get there how we get there.
	Okay.
	So you were saying that your stepfather was a violent man who would assault his children in public about the same, to about the same degree and in the same way.
	Not necessarily.
	I would say, like, so for instance, in private, I remember one time we were like one of our cattle was out in the yard, and I was tasked with keeping our three Rottweilers in the house so they didn't attack the door, attack the cattle.
	He called me outside, and when I opened the door, I think it was only like nine or 10 years old.
	These three, all three of these Rottweilers, between 120, 150 pounds, they all like jumped on me and pushed me down and ran out.
	It was a huge kerfuffle.
	We had to try to like, you know, get this cattle in without getting attacked by the dogs.
	And as punishment, I remember he like pushed me down to the ground and my back was up against a tree and he was just repeatedly kicking me in the stomach like over and over again, screaming at the top of his lungs.
	Like that was like the kind of stuff that would go down at home and in public.
	I remember at one time at Walmart, my brother accused me of stealing something, which I hadn't.
	And my stepdad just started like smacking the shit out of me in public.
	And again, this was in the 90s in the deep south of Florida.
	And I'm not talking like Palm Beach, Florida.
	I'm talking like Georgia, Alabama, extended north central part of Florida.
	And back then and in that area, people just, they just saw that and nobody batted an eye.
	That was just how things were done back then.
	But I assume that that wasn't super common.
	It was pretty common.
	It was pretty common.
	Oh, so that he would beat you guys up in public.
	Not to the same extent that he did in private, but yeah, he would, yeah, if we said something that was out of line, we'd get a backhand.
	I don't remember ever getting like a full closed fist, but like I said, I've blacked out so much of that as possible.
	It could have happened.
	Well, it also is possible with head trauma that some of the memories have.
	It's not funny, man.
	Please, I'm begging you.
	You tell me you're fine.
	Please don't.
	I can laugh at my own trauma.
	How old are you in a public?
	But you're in a public conversation.
	If you want to do that in private, obviously you can do that.
	But if you're in a public conversation giggling about how you were beaten, you could have been beaten so badly that you had brain damage.
	I can't let that pass in a public conversation, right?
	Understood.
	Understood.
	Because it's messed up for people to hear.
	If there was any brain trauma I received, I don't think it was from my stepdad.
	It was from when my brother cracked me upside the head with an axe handle.
	This is your older brother?
	Yes, the older brother.
	The one who's dead.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So my question basically was that I also agree that spanking is incorrect.
	I think at any point you're engaging in physical harm to a child, you've essentially already lost the argument.
	You've lost any moral argument over what that child is doing is wrong.
	My, I guess, my limiting principle, I suppose, is that I personally don't see that much wrong with like a quick smack in the mouth, depending on age and depending on the situation.
	I think that's pretty natural.
	I don't think that goes to the level of like abuse unless it's repeated and sustained.
	And for the most minor of infractions, I think oftentimes there isn't a situation where in order to correct the behavior immediately and in order to impress upon a child the severity of what they're doing, that sitting them down right there in that moment and giving them the full conversation or the full talk is really going to be as effective as a quick smack and be like, hey, you're out of line.
	Stop it right now.
	Like I see that no, that to me isn't as that's no different than to like, for instance, when like a mother will snaps at the air in front of a pup saying like, hey, you're, you're, you're messing up.
	Get back in line.
	Okay.
	So can you tell me a circumstance in which a smack in the mouth or smacking a child in the mouth is good?
	Like something particular, not something like, but you know, like a particular circumstance.
	Particular circumstance.
	So this was actually from a woman who was not my mother.
	I was at a friend's house and we were, for some reason, the conversation about the JFK assassination came up.
	And I think I was about 12 or 13 years old.
	And I was sitting next to this woman on the couch.
	And somebody made a comment about that part where, you know, like you saw JFK is a piece of his skull, like pops off and lands.
	And then Jackie Kennedy reached over and grabbed it real quick.
	And I made the joke like, hey, that's worth money.
	And like snatched it.
	And immediately this woman just backhanded me in the mouth.
	And she was like, unless you were sitting there watching that and seeing this man die on TV, you don't get to make that joke.
	And that was immediate.
	Immediately I understood like, oh, I crossed the line because this woman was a child watching that happen on TV.
	So it was very triggering for her, obviously.
	Do I think that was the best way of going about it?
	Probably not, but it was certainly effective.
	Okay.
	So if a child makes a inappropriate joke, you can smack them on the face.
	Depending on the severity.
	Okay.
	So make the case.
	That's the case I just made.
	No, you just described it.
	Okay.
	You said, I made so, and of course, the reason why you made that joke was because you'd been severely abused as a child.
	Probably.
	So she was hitting you for the effects of child abuse.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I can understand that.
	I agree.
	I agree.
	Okay.
	So is it fair to hit a child for the effects of child abuse?
	And let me sort of give you an analogy.
	If you have some bad parent who teaches a child that if someone asks you, hey, how are you doing today?
	And you said the polite response is F you or F off, right?
	And if the child is taught that and then the child says that, is it appropriate to smack the child in the face?
	Can you say that one more time, please?
	I don't think I caught it.
	So let's say that a parent teaches little Bobby that when someone says, how are you?
	You say the polite response is to say, F off.
	Right.
	It's just some weird sadistic parent, right?
	Who's teaching the child the wrong response, right?
	Yeah.
	And then, you know, someone comes up and says to the little kid, how are you?
	And the kid says, F off, you know, because that's what he's been told to say by his father.
	Is it good or right to smack that kid in the face?
	And you say that he's been taught by his father to respond that way.
	Sure.
	And the person smacking them is or is not their parent?
	No, no, not the parent.
	Not the parent smacking the child for something the parent told them to say.
	Yeah, because you were being smacked by this woman.
	She was not your parent for making the joke about Jackie Kennedy.
	Okay, so is it if the child has been taught to say F off to a polite question, is it appropriate to smack the child in the face?
	No.
	And why not?
	Well, A, because it's not their child.
	And I want to reiterate, like, giving that example of the joke I told about Jackie Kennedy, that was just an example.
	It wasn't necessarily me saying, like, this is correct behavior.
	I asked you for a circumstance in which it would be appropriate, and that's the one you gave me.
	Oh, okay.
	Sorry, I must have misunderstood that question.
	I was giving an example to where this happened.
	It wasn't necessarily a defense.
	No, because you, sorry, I mean, it's fine if we misunderstood each other, but my understanding was you said there are times when it's appropriate to smack a child in the face, and I said, give me an example of that.
	And then you gave me that example.
	Could be appropriate.
	No, again.
	Okay, let's not, let's not, I'm not, I'm not doing equivocation and this sort of stuff, okay?
	Sure.
	Thinking about it is not correct.
	So we agree that it's not appropriate to smack a child in the face if the child has been taught by the parent to swear.
	Yes, we agree on that.
	Because the fault would lie with who?
	The parent that told them an inappropriate way of responding to a polite, normal question.
	Okay.
	And also the person who's smacking the child.
	Yes.
	Well, but the person, yeah, yes, I agree.
	So if a child makes a cold-hearted joke about Jackie Kennedy saying, oh, this could be worth money, like my husband's skull fragments or something like that, right?
	Why do you think a child would make that joke?
	Probably because they've developed a dark sense of humor, probably because they've been raised in a very dark, abusive environment.
	Right.
	So whose fault when the child is a child, who's got the primary responsibility for that dark joke?
	Well, it's a child, so it would be the parents.
	Right.
	So is it just and fair to smack a child in the face for the effects of bad parenting?
	No.
	Okay, so then it's wrong.
	Yes.
	Okay, so you were telling me, and I'm happy to take another example.
	So you were telling me about how it can be appropriate at times to smack a child in the face or the mouth.
	And the first one that you gave, which was the joke about Jackie Kennedy, is not the right circumstance, but I'm certainly willing to hear another one.
	Well, also, when I say smack, I don't necessarily mean like the type of smack that you would give someone to actually cause pain, but more of just you're getting close to crossing a line.
	Again, maybe it's because I was infused child.
	I have maybe my understanding of what constitutes physical abuse and what doesn't is probably skewed.
	But personally, I mean, again, you're probably going to prove me wrong, but I just don't see it as quite as damaging or abusive as a quick, just, you know, quick pop.
	Like, hey, hey, shut up.
	You're crossing a line.
	Stop it.
	Okay.
	So what you're saying, and we're getting into fog land here, right?
	I'm sure you're aware of that.
	So the intellectual insight you're bringing to the table here is that hitting a child less hard is less bad.
	Well, when it's phrased like that, obviously it doesn't sound as justified.
	I don't have it.
	But I agree with you.
	I agree with you.
	Of course.
	Of course.
	Hitting a child less hard is less bad.
	I completely agree with you about that.
	But I'm still waiting for an example of how it is justified to smack whatever when you do smack a child in the face.
	I suppose I don't have one.
	Do you have any example?
	This isn't trying to deal with what about isn't.
	I'm just genuinely curious.
	Do you have any example to when you think it would be justified to well, I guess, you know, you already said so by physically pulling a child away and not necessarily hitting them.
	So I guess I am incorrect.
	Well, but that would not be specific to parenting.
	Okay.
	So let's say, for instance, that you see a man in really thick glasses with headphones on about to walk into traffic and you think maybe a blind man has lost his orientation and he's about to wander into traffic.
	Would you be justified in grabbing and restraining him so that he did not injure himself?
	Of course.
	Right.
	So that would not be assault.
	No, unless he decides that you assaulted him for some reason.
	But no, no harm.
	But no, but if he decided, if he wanted to press charges, right?
	Let's say there was video of the incident and he called up the cops and he said, this guy assaulted me when you simply grabbed him and restrained him from walking into traffic.
	What would the cops say?
	Well, I guess it depends on the cop, but generally I would like to think that the cops would just laugh and say, no, you were not assaulted.
	Yeah, that's not assault, right?
	No.
	In the same way that if someone is choking to death at a restaurant and you know the Heimlich maneuver and you get behind them and you do the Heimlich maneuver, that would not be considered assault, right?
	Well, technically, it would be considered as unwanted physical contact.
	No, it would not be considered assault because you cannot ask for permission because the person is choking and any reasonable assumption would be that the person did not want to die and would rather have a bit of a sore stomach from the Heimlich maneuver than die.
	So that would not be assault in any common law system.
	Okay.
	In the same way, if somebody has passed out and they need an emergency tracheotomy, then you give them an emergency, if you have the skill, right?
	You're a surgeon.
	You give them the emergency tracheotomy.
	That would not be considered stabbing them and assaults, right?
	So it's not specific to parenting.
	If your child is about to wander out into traffic, then you grab your child and you restrain your child, for sure.
	I mean, but that's not assault, right?
	Sure.
	Now, what you can't do with the blind man who's about to wander into traffic is you can't punch him in the face or slap him in the face or use physical violence against him so that he doesn't wander into traffic again.
	But that would be assault, right?
	Yeah, so that's all I'm saying.
	I mean, I'm a universal moralist, right?
	Which means that the non-aggression principle doesn't suddenly materialize when you're 18.
	And in fact, we generally, the non-aggression principle is there to protect, you know, if Dwayne Johnson or, I don't know, Arnold Schwarzenegger at the height of his muscularity and so on, if he's walking down the street in Europe, someplace, let's say, where they have no guns, he's walking down the street.
	Do we really need a lot of principles of non-aggression to make sure that people don't mess with him?
	It's like, no, because he's big and strong and intimidating and tall and muscular and so on, right?
	In the same way, if Bruce Lee in his prime was walking down the street and people recognized him, you wouldn't need a whole bunch of the non-aggression principle to protect him because people are like, okay, he's a really expert martial artist, blah, blah, blah.
	So the non-aggression principle is there to protect those who have difficulty protecting themselves.
	And children, of course, have the greatest difficulty in protecting themselves because they're small and weak and physically dependent and economically dependent and so on.
	And so the non-aggression principle, since it applies the most to those least able to defend themselves, would apply to children the most.
	Okay, so I think we're, okay, so.
	So I think my stance would be it's a quick pop in the mouth might be more expedient and easier for the parent to do in the moment, but ultimately is going to cause more harm than good.
	Well, it's not ultimately.
	It's not ultimately, it's wrong in the moment.
	So, the purpose of parenting is to prepare your children for life, for situations, for challenges, and so on, right?
	Yes.
	So, if you are taking a little kid, I don't know if you've ever are you a parent yourself?
	I am not.
	No, my uh, my ex-wife had an abortion.
	Oh, gosh, I'm sorry to hear that.
	Yeah, so it was into it at the time, but after years in the antidepressants wore off, I realized what a mistake it was, and now I'm uh staunchly pro-life.
	Okay, and what decade of life are you in?
	I am 41.
	41, okay, all right.
	So, if you have kids, you take your kids to friends' places, and their kids have birthdays.
	Now, particularly as the number of children that people have has gone down, when you take your kid to a birthday party, what things can you say ahead of time to try and ensure the best and happiest experience?
	I don't know if I'm the one that asked that question.
	I don't think I had any good experiences when I was a child that I can even draw on for contrast.
	Um, I mean, even when like my mother very rarely ever let me go over to any friends' houses, um, I understand now in hindsight and after doing research into uh narcissistic sociopathy that that's a tactic.
	They don't want you to go and see what actual good parenting is because anybody come back.
	And yeah, so it's it's so bizarre.
	Like, I don't have any real examples that I can draw.
	And I suppose that uh, if some, if you know, if I'm if I'm hypothetically, if I'm trying to prepare my seven or eight-year-old to go to a birthday party and you know, somebody hits you, um, see, I can't even say that because I am staunchly against go run and tell the teacher.
	I think that that's I think if a bully hits you, you turn around and you hit him back, preferably in a really sensitive spot.
	But maybe that's you know, coming from my uh, my abusive childhood.
	Yeah, I don't think I've ever said that, but so some of the things that I've said, of course, would be things like, okay, it's going to be really exciting, it's going to be pretty wild, and you know, enjoy, enjoy, enjoy, but you know, just recognize that you know, there's going to be sugar, there's going to be uh fun toys, games, and that, and enjoy, but just remember, you know, it's going to be going to be pretty wild.
	So you sort of prepare them for that.
	And the other thing, of course, you might want to say is something like, look, you're going to be seeing a whole lot of presents that aren't yours.
	I think we're going to be able to do that.
	So, so, you know, I mean, but but hey, remember, there'll be when it's your birthday, other kids will be coming to your birthday party.
	I mean, we had a birthday party for my daughter once when the power went out.
	And we actually had a, we'd hired a woman to do face painting.
	This is when she was quite young.
	And the power went out.
	And the kids literally had the best time possible because they got their faces done by flashlight.
	And we came up, I came up with all kinds of fun games to play and all of that.
	So taking advantage of the darkness and so on, right?
	But so you'd say, you might feel like, oh, I want those presents.
	And I understand that, but we're there to get.
	So, you know, you just kind of prepare the kid.
	And yeah, there will be kids who are very loud.
	That's fine.
	You can join in if you want.
	You can take a break if you want.
	And if you need anything, obviously come grab me and so on.
	And yeah, you do a little bit of, you know, if kids say mean things to you, I would rather she come and talk to me rather than use violence.
	Certainly against kids saying mean things, you can't use violence because, you know, it's a free speech situation.
	And if a kid, no kid's ever been violent with my daughter, but if they were, then I would rather she come to me because if you tell your kid, just you know, pop, pop the other kid, it's like, well, the other kid might be a psychopath.
	Yes.
	And I agree for the most part.
	Maybe it's because I'm an eternal, I'm always trying to find the middle ground and everything.
	And I think that like going too far in either direction, you're going to end up messing up somewhere.
	If you teach the child to always try to find someone else to solve your issue or your complex with another person, then they're going to become, you know, like the authoritarian left that we see now, where it's like every time there's an issue, they run to the highest authority and try to get them to solve it rather than resolving it themselves.
	And on the same issue, if you're told to only solve your own problems, then you never seek help.
	And then you become, you know, like my stepdad, essentially.
	So I think that's why I'm maybe that's where my middle ground comes from, where I think that, you know, possibly, you know, the slight pop in the mouth, I don't see quite as destructive.
	And, you know, as you said, you know, certainly hitting it.
	I'm a little lost now.
	First of all, I was talking about when my daughter was very young.
	Yes.
	So I don't want, and I would say this to my son, too, right?
	If somebody is violent towards you, then, you know, come talk to me, right?
	And because you need an adult to assess the situation.
	And I mean, if there's no adult around, then you can absolutely use force to defend yourself.
	But make it decisive force.
	That's what I would say.
	Make it decisive force.
	Don't just poke the bear.
	But so in terms of parenting, you said, well, the kid might be reacting to something and in the moment, but your whole job as a parent is to prepare kids for situations.
	And if you failed to prepare them for that situation, that's on you.
	If you fail to coach them on the right way to approach a particular situation or a positive or productive way to approach a particular situation, then that's on you, right?
	Agreed.
	I mean, if you're a coach of a baseball team and you only teach catching and never hitting, and then your kids hit badly, that's because you failed to prepare them for hitting, if that makes sense.
	It makes perfect sense.
	For the listener, I have a motion for that.
	Sorry, is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	We've got a couple of other callers.
	No, no, by all means.
	This is lovely.
	And I just want to say that before I go, you were instrumental in coming to the terms of understanding that I should not hesitate to cut toxic family members out of my life.
	And I want to thank you for that.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	I would certainly say once you have decided and you have the evidence from conversations, that is a tragic but necessary thing.
	But I would certainly say have the conversations with people first if it's relatively safe to do so.
	Agreed.
	Thank you for your time.
	All right.
	Thank you, man.
	I appreciate that.
	And dearest Pyrrhus?
	Yep, that was it.
	Oh, that was you.
	Was that you?
	Okay.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So, Brian, Brian, we've got.
	I'm back.
	Yes, go ahead.
	Lou.
	Sorry, I missed you earlier.
	I was actually eating my kids' breakfast and trying to escape the room to get on.
	We don't mind parenting being the interruption to the show and parenting.
	So that's totally fine.
	Well, thank you for hosting this.
	It's a near and dear topic to my wife and I.
	And I think it's the most important conversation being had publicly right now because I believe what happens in my house is more important than what happens in, you know, affairs of state that I have no control over.
	So it's greatly appreciated.
	In the case in my home between my wife and I, we were both hit as children and we made the decision to never do that to our children.
	Just feels completely inappropriate.
	You know, I'm not the biggest person, but I'm 6'2, 180 pounds, and I have a five-year-old boy and a one-year-old girl.
	And I look at them.
	And the notion of me ever towering over them in anger, putting my hands on them and harming them is it's so beyond my comprehension that that would be helpful, permissible, in any way of benefit to anyone.
	It's just, you know, it's not even a possibility.
	And in my situation growing up, my parents divorced when I was about 11 months old.
	And so my mom was left with, you know, a young boy and a lot of frustration from divorce and things.
	And she dedicated her entire world to raising me.
	But she did not extremely violently, but she did spank me sometimes publicly, sometimes family situations where I would be taken from the dinner table and misbehaving and into a separate room and spanked.
	And then in bizarre, big Italian family bizarre fashion, like, you know, my hair straightened and my clothes put back in a normal thing.
	And then walked out holding hands back to the table as if everything was okay or presenting a good front on it and sat back down.
	And as my memory serves, I don't really necessarily remember being bad.
	I was a pretty timid child and I was pretty respectful.
	I'm the firstborn of my whole generation.
	So I spent a ton of time with my grandparents and elders.
	So I think she was more hurt by my parents' divorce and, you know, frankly, hormonal and not knowing that.
	Sorry, she was more hurt by my parents' divorce.
	Who's the she there?
	No, no, I'm saying she was hurt by my dad leaving and just being just sorry, your mother.
	Your mother was hurt by your dad leaving.
	Correct.
	Okay, got it.
	My dad left with another woman and had her pregnant when I was very, you know, prior to my parents actually, you know, finalizing their divorce.
	So there was a lot of pain involved in all that.
	So I think I was somewhat, you know, I might have taken some abuse that was intended for someone else, let's just say.
	On the other side, my dad had one of the most traumatic and horrific childhoods that I could possibly describe.
	And he never laid a hand on my sister nor I, not once.
	And despite his personal trauma and despite he was a very severe alcoholic and had anger issues and certain things, but actually never laid a hand on us.
	He could control our household by just curling the corner of the newspaper down and looking over the top of it with his glasses at us.
	And we would just know immediately, like, okay, whatever, whatever we're doing right now, we should stop.
	And there was some verbal, you know, stuff, but unbelievably never physical.
	And part of the reason I asked to chime in right now is because I just kind of wanted to actually publicly give him unbelievable credit.
	He was beaten mercilessly as a child, then handed off from his parents and then to his godmother who did the same to him.
	And he broke the cycle.
	He never did that to his children.
	Whereas my mom actually was never hit as far as I know, and she did spank me.
	And now I am 51 and I have a wonderful relationship with both of my parents.
	In communicating with my mom, she will often, with tears, apologize to me for having done so and explain to me that it's probably her greatest regret and that she's so proud of us that we decided not to do that to our children.
	And in my wife's case, her parents had two sets of twin girls, so four girls over the course of the span of six years.
	And her dad was a farm boy raised in South Dakota with eight brothers and a sister.
	And he actually hit his four daughters with a belt when they misbehaved, to which I actually have a very hard time even kind of hosting him at my home, knowing that that's the case when I look at him.
	And I'm like, I, I, as now a parent, I look at my children, then I look at him and I'm like, I, I, I could, I certainly could never imagine doing such to my son, but the notion of ever laying a finger on my daughter is just beyond comprehension.
	So, um, so yeah, I, I, I, I, back to my original point.
	I just think this is such an incredible uh conversation to be had and it's so valuable.
	And I hope that more people are speaking about this and it's something that they're willing to address in their own lives and break the cycle as my dad did.
	And now my wife and I have.
	Well, I listen, I appreciate that.
	And I'm certainly thrilled that your father didn't hit you, but bro had some challenges as a dad, right?
	Alcoholic, cheated on your mom, left with another woman.
	And obviously, there was some level of fear with that sort of glare, as you said, over the top of the newspaper.
	Yeah, I was definitely afraid of him and beyond intimidated.
	My dad is, he graduated high school two years early in med school three years early and, you know, can do the New York Times crossword puzzle blindfolded while answering every question on Jeopardy.
	You know, like it's, he's, he's hyper intelligent.
	So it's one of those situations where, yes, my sister and I were, yeah, I'm going to say I've never beat him at Scrabble.
	He retired from playing basketball against me when I came within one point of beating him, you know, and he's, he's definitely, he's, he's, he's an anomaly.
	But yes, yes, there was, there was definitely, I would call it emotional trauma and that side of things.
	But the neglect also that comes from being an alcoholic, right?
	Alcoholism is very tough for children because it renders the parent emotionally absent.
	Yes, very, very much so.
	But I, but I am proud of him.
	He's now 30 years sober and just because he was never dad of the year, but he is now definitely grandfather of the year multiple years in a row.
	He's wonderful at this point.
	So I don't know.
	My story is sort of an arc of redemption.
	How did, and listen, I'm completely thrilled.
	I think that's great.
	How, because there's so many parents who don't do that, don't have that sort of arc of redemption, so to speak.
	Do you have any sort of thoughts or insights as to what might have happened with your parents to have them change their hearts somewhat?
	In my dad's case, my stepmother actually credits something.
	He had an aneurysm that ruptured while he was at a medical conference in Canada.
	Okay, I was not expecting that.
	I'm so sorry.
	Healing by aneurysm?
	Well, she just, she believes that him not dying and somehow that leading to him, you know, getting sober and facing his mortality made him a calmer, nicer, more loving person.
	And I'll, you know, she had more, I didn't live with him, so she had more direct experience with that.
	So I do think she's right.
	I don't know the exact science behind why it may have happened, but I definitely noticed a shift in him.
	And sorry, from how old were you when that happened?
	I was 21.
	21.
	Okay.
	Wow.
	So you don't think it was something physical, but more something spiritual, like the mortality thing?
	I actually think it might be a combination of both.
	I mean, who knows?
	Maybe there was actually some form of pressure on some part of his brain that was causing him to.
	I can't speak to it.
	I'm not a doctor.
	No, no, I'm just curious whether you think it was spiritual or whether.
	I mean, I assume with the physical things, I mean, your father being a doctor, he would have some idea of like, oh, this part of your brain has gone dark or something like that.
	And yeah, it's interesting.
	Yeah.
	I mean, and not to get too into it.
	I'm not whatever, but in my dad's case, just to give you some, just a little bit of background on him, which is, I'm expressing this as a moment of extreme, you know, pride within him.
	Whenever anybody in my life starts giving some woe is me talk about their circumstances or this and the third, I almost want to call, tell them just like, oh, dial this phone number and talk to this gentleman because when my dad was born, his parents were both alcoholics and they both were physical with him.
	And then when he was nine, he was home from school and my grandmother and grandfather, my grandmother told my grandfather that she was pregnant and he did not want to have any more children.
	And they were both drinking and my dad was sitting on the floor doing his homework.
	And as the story goes, my grandfather and grandmother got into a physical altercation.
	My grandfather beat her and she fell and father beat your grandmother.
	Correct.
	I think they're physical with each other.
	And she fell and hit her head on the mantle.
	And he fell on the couch blackout drunk.
	And when he arose, my dad was cradling his mom who had passed away in his arms.
	And he was nine.
	And she had essentially bled to death.
	And he was just holding her on the floor.
	My grandfather woke up and called somebody and said, You won't believe it.
	My wife, the drunk, she fell and hit her head and she's dead, you know, and my poor son in Yada Yada.
	So when I tell you, my dad had a very, very, very, very difficult childhood.
	And then his father proceeded to further descend into his self-abuse.
	And my dad got a job delivering newspapers and would essentially pick his father up on a random street corner every morning sometime and bring him home, clean him up.
	And then under those circumstances, still get up, go to high school, finish his paper out and, you know, and get straight is and graduate early.
	Like it's just, it's an unbelievable story of accomplishment.
	So in many ways, whenever I've looked at my struggles, I look to him and I'm like, wow, like you overcame so much under these circumstances.
	And then, you know, went on to not harm my sister and I in any physical matter.
	So I don't actually even know that the root cause.
	I feel like I'm sharing this because I just want people to know that there's so much hope and there's the ability to change and for this to be better.
	And I'm a living example of it.
	So I just wanted to offer some, even though it's a dark story, I feel some positivity to all of this.
	Like there's, there's such, there is so much in the world for redemption and for making things better.
	And my children will never know any of those.
	That's quite a story.
	And of course, massive sympathies to everyone except maybe your grandfather.
	But yeah, and that may have been why he became a doctor, is that he couldn't save his mother, right?
	He actually became a oncologist and worked for very poor neighborhoods with women with breast cancer.
	So I actually think you're right about that.
	I think he chose his specific field and the area in which he worked and his specialty based on helping underprivileged women.
	So there's something deep to that.
	Yeah, it's wild.
	And again, all kudos to your father, but it's wild how much good can come out of evil if we let it.
	It's an amazing thing.
	It's an amazing thing.
	Do you believe that adversity breeds character in some situations?
	Oh, I have no, like, I would not be as rational and focused on peace and the non-aggression principle if I hadn't been raised by a violent mother.
	I have no doubt about that.
	And sometimes, you know, I think really the judo move of like turning evil into good is the greatest alchemy possible for human beings.
	And to, you know, there's an old book, The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis.
	And of course, he makes the argument that the thing that frustrates the devil the most is if he tempts you with lust, you say, okay, I'm going to be more pure.
	If he tempts you with gluttony, you say, well, I'm going to eat less.
	In other words, if you take the evils that are offered to you, and, you know, the big thing that evil offers you is excuse, an excuse.
	I never wanted to say, I'm going to have lower standards for myself because of my bad childhood.
	I would say, I actually have to have higher standards for myself because of my bad childhood because I've seen how evil things can be.
	So I've seen how evil people can be.
	And so I have no, like if you, if you, if you watch your father dying of lung cancer for five years and you say, well, that means I'm never going to smoke.
	And I'm going to talk a lot about how bad smoking is.
	And I'm going to really work on making sure that people don't smoke.
	And right.
	So you'd have higher standards for not smoking if you saw your father, your beloved father die of lung cancer.
	And having seen what war and violence and the state did to my mother and what communism and Nazism did to my ancestors and seeing what mysticism did to my mother and so on, for me, it's like, okay, I mean, I have to have higher standards for myself, not lower.
	And I mean, really, that's all you can do.
	What else can you do with the evils that you've suffered other than to try and will them into the greater good?
	Otherwise, evil just spreads and dominates and the world has no future other than suffering.
	Yeah, I wish I had heard those words 20 years ago, but I'm glad to hear them now because I did for a period of time use these things as an excuse or a crutch or for misbehaving.
	And I turned it around in what I would consider almost a divine intervention at a certain point when my life was like a child.
	And I now no longer, yeah, it's I've my life's been set in a completely different direction.
	But yeah, I think what you just said is incredibly valuable for everybody on the call.
	That's one.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	And the other good thing about being fortunate enough to be born a blonde, blue-eyed white male is that nobody gives you any excuses.
	They just give you shitstorm after sheitstorm.
	You get no excuses as a white male.
	And that's great.
	That's fantastic.
	I mean, it can be annoying at times, but it is the groups that society wants to destroy, it hands out excuses to.
	And the fact that I never got handed excuses was incredibly beneficial in the long run, though, of course, somewhat annoying in the short run.
	Yeah, yeah.
	We do this thing at Thanksgiving at the end of the meal where everybody says, you know, something you're thankful for.
	You know, we go around the table.
	And a couple of years ago, when this was asked, I said, I'm thankful for the gift of time and perspective.
	And what I meant by that is that had my father passed away from that aneurysm and I was an angry 21-year-old.
	That it's still holding him responsible for much of these things, you know, the divorce and this and that and whatever.
	I think my life would be on a different trajectory.
	But the fact that he did not pass and that we reconciled and that a lot of this has been discussed and worked through.
	And now I see him in a completely different light.
	That has allowed me to be a much better person and parent and much more forgiving of him and his circumstances and willing to accept the new version of him and have him in my children's life along those lines.
	So it's the gift of time and perspective has been of saggering benefit to me.
	Well, and it gives your father a redemption arc that he can act on with regards to his grandchildren, which is a beautiful thing to see.
	And so I appreciate that it's a wonderful story.
	More than a story.
	It's a wonderful sequence of events to see and a great character arc to approve of.
	And if you found something, and I would say this to everyone in life, if you found something that saves you, then I strongly encourage you to have it help save others.
	So what saved me was philosophy.
	Saved me.
	I would have been most likely a highly eloquent monster of power, given my verbal and reasoning and intelligence abilities.
	I would have been an amoral monster of power seeking that could have done great harm to the world.
	But philosophy saved me and turned me to the light and away from the temptations of the material and of power.
	Because, you know, when you grow up and you feel powerless as a child, the desire to overcompensate in a way and seek power as a way of dealing with the problem of powerlessness is huge.
	I mean, I look at the power mongers in the world, and all I see are people hyper-reacting to feeling powerless as a child.
	And philosophy turned me away from that.
	And so, of course, it has been the goal of my adult life to bring philosophy to people and its capacity for rational salvation as it saved me.
	Therefore, I turn to amplify it and hopefully communicate it as well, if not better, as those who inspired me, so that the salvation can continue and accelerate because the world is either getting better or it's getting worse.
	And there's lots of people out there trying to make it worse.
	So everything that we can do to help make it better is just another brick in the foundation of a glorious house we hope our descendants will live in.
	Well, thank you.
	I really, really appreciate that.
	And I really do thank everyone for your time today.
	If you want to learn more about spanking, you can.
	Please don't do a blind Google search.
	But if you want to learn more about spanking, of course, I have a whole series of shows on spanking.
	You can go to FDR Podcast.
	That's Free Domain.
	The R was for the radio.
	Free Domain, I was Radio Shack, then became, right?
	But you can go to FDRpodcast.com, just do a search for spanking.
	We've got the truth about spanking.
	We've got lots of interviews: Jordan Riack, Alison Gopnick, lots of other people.
	I actually just reposted my interview.
	I can't believe it was from 2009.
	16 years ago.
	16 years ago, I did an interview with Dr. Allison Gopnik about her book, The Philosophical Baby.
	And I hope that you will go and check those kinds of things out.
	Peacefulparenting.com for the theory, practice, and science behind why peaceful parenting is both moral, rational, and effective.
	Peacefulparenting.com, the book is free.
	We're working on a print version for Christmas.
	And of course, last but not least, shop.freedomain.com to get some free domain merch.
	Display your love of philosophy proudly, and you'll get into some conversations about it.
	I had no idea.
	All right.
	Thanks, everyone.
	We'll talk to you tomorrow night for Wednesday Night Live at 7 o'clock and freedomain.com/slash call.
	If you'd like to book a public or private call-in show, please let me know.
	Everyone's kind of opting for the private call-in shows at the moment, which is fine, but it would be nice to get some public ones too, if that would be of help to you, costs you nothing, and can really help the world.
	So have yourself a wonderful day, everyone.
	Love you guys so much.
	Take care.

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